Why Do People Ignore The Disadvantages Of Men?

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Chris and George TheTinMen discuss why there is a push to “cure” men of their masculinity? Why do people get so angry when you mention the difference between boys and men? Why is it so hard for men to find a positive role model according to George TheTinMen? Why are workshops popping up that help “cure” men of their masculinity?
#masculinity #toxicmasculinity #mensrights
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[@ChrisWillx]

Hello you legends. Watch the full episode with George here - kzbin.info/www/bejne/oquuYZ9ngapkeKc

[@billusher2265]

The “toxic masculinity” narrative is hilarious because -we are constantly told by the left we need to change phrases because they are offensive, even things as innocuous as “master bedroom”, yet even though polls find the majority of men find the term toxic masculinity a insulting term, they won’t stop using it. -the entire conversation is almost always about associating traditional masculinity with toxic masculinity, even though polling data finds the more masculine a man identified is correlated with less depression, more happiness, higher wealth, and more satisfied marriages (see “The Pitfalls and Power of Masculinity” from IFStudies) -the people constantly droning on about men needing to solve their toxic masculinity, are liberal women, which is ironic because liberal women are the group arguably living the most mentally toxic lifestyle, survey data finds liberal women are much more likely to report being diagnosed with a mental illness and having depressive symptoms, and conservative men the least. (see “Why the Mental Health of Liberal Girls Sank First and Fastest” from AfterBabel)

[@pahyzhahyz9634]

Source?

[@xiaomoogle]

Another irony is the increase in women talking about getting the ick when dating a man. When pressed you’ll find it’s usually cos the man did something effeminate or not masculine. Women do not find effeminate men attractive. Imagine 50’shades of gray with a camp male character 😅 would it have sold as much books? Course not. I’m a feminist, more like Louise Perry, and I really worry these progressive feminists are giving feminism a terrible name.

[@ailouros24]

the thing is most of then dont even use the term correctly. it is a phrase they use to attack men that can mean anything. a man works too hard? toxic. a man doesnt cry? toxic. a man cries? very toxic. a man is happy? still toxic.

[@jonathan4831]

The only men I've met who find the term toxic masculinity offensive are men insecure about their masculinity.

[@synchronium24]

"we are constantly told by the left we need to change phrases because they are offensive" The implicit subtext here is "for disadvantaged groups". As Chris and George discussed, they are ideologically averse to seeing men as a disadvantaged group, even in areas where there is an abundance of evidence for it.

[@x-ray-oh3134]

I have a feeling that the women who are in charge of these courses would never date any of the men who go through these courses

[@Khan-rz8qi]

Ofc not, it’s a mere filtering process to see which men are foolish enough to take such a course because they don’t have it figured out, and discard them out of the dating pool accordingly.

[@parrotshootist3004]

@@Khan-rz8qi mass scale population and 'education' engineering.

[@henryfullman1163]

Their the same sort of women to then complain “there’s no good men” after pushing this garbage ideology

[@dmcentYT]

Nope they want the tattooed crotch rocket f boys

[@Pengboycarti]

Women who actually engage in these politics and built these pathetic courses tend to be emotionally immature and borderline misandrists. It's not normal behaviour.

[@biancaharman2518]

3:44 ‘treat the issue, not the gender…’ this is a great comment in and of itself. We’ve all had our own unique experiences and it’s hard when we can’t communicate effectively.

[@Slim-MMA]

Toxic masculinity literally isn’t a thing. Toxic people are a thing, men just happen to be some of them.

[@lachlancomport9470]

Well said

[@erikataylor5629]

Yes, I've met many more toxic women than men in my life. Probably because I work in a female-dominated field. You actually struggle to find an emotionally well-balanced woman, at least in the workplace.

[@Slim-MMA]

@@erikataylor5629 Spot on. The rise and push of feminism on society has put a target on men’s backs.

[@dmcentYT]

@@Slim-MMA the pendulum is starting to swing back. Buckle in

[@geot4647]

I'm not woke, but you're ignoring testosterone, more murders, pointless ego wars, etc.

[@mattisner]

The analogy between the current pathologizing of toxic masculinity and the historical pathologizing of hysteria is spot on.

[@Khan-rz8qi]

The problem is that men allowed society to redefine what masculinity was in the first place. Even worst, men adopted those redefinitions and evidently it's put them in a very bad position within their own societies, and their suffering as a result. My solution is, men have to reclaim what masculinity is. Deep down all men know what it is, that deep passion for power, competence, competition, testing each others strengths, building, protecting, and providing for our societies. *As first class citizens*, not second. Men have to understand, they don't have to relinquish their power in order to treat people fairly and be "good". We're men, we literally have the power over every species on the planet, the fact that we're even having this crisis is a testament to our failure in this aspect. Man to man, let's do better. Forget what society says, we're gonna do what we gotta do. 💯

[@laravelanode]

Most men wanted those specifications

[@nokeksgiven]

Women determine masculinity.

[@marsjokes]

Most of the gatekeepers of manhood were busy dying in wars when their identities were toppled by "society."

[@jonathan4831]

Masculinity didn't evolve to adapt to the modern world and provide men empowering and constructive ways to channel their needs.

[@jz372]

You are talking like men are superior to everyone and should therefore dominate over everyone, especially women. I'm pretty sure people talk about guys like you when they talk about toxic masculinity and that is why people are suffering. If people like you would just let go of this ''I need to be a first class citizen over everyone'' ideology, we would not be in this mess in the first place.

[@Retired-jr3qs]

Stop caring about what women want and focus on being a man of character and integrity. I am retired and happy.

[@wolfy8006]

Real men just ignore the squabbling fat blue/purple haired creatures, but the sad thing they are poisoning the kids.

[@karlsilverone]

Most people don't have a formulated opinion on many things, until they are asked about it, then they coble one togther from half rememebred anicdotes and mostly forgotten phrases, then after holding this opnion for 2 minutes they decide this is the hill they are going to die on.

[@adamlee1054]

There is no such thing as "toxic masculinity", just as there is no "toxic femininity", and there is no coherent and effective method to promote "positive masculinity" either. It is crucial to recognize that both men and women can exhibit toxic behaviors, regardless of their gender identity. Originally coined in the 1990s, the term "toxic masculinity" emerged from research conducted on violent offenders in prison who engaged in confrontations and even fatal altercations. The researchers observed that these men often displayed aggressive, dominant, and violent tendencies, attributing these behaviors to traditional ideals of masculinity, particularly within the confines of the prison environment. Over time, the concept of "toxic masculinity" has evolved to encompass a broader range of behaviors associated with traditional notions of masculinity. It has expanded perversely from its initial origins, which focused on studying prisoners engaged in violent acts, and now includes other aspects, such as the contemporary interpretation that places narcissism squarely on men.

[@TheFluffyDuck]

“Where have all the good men gone And where are all the gods? Where's the streetwise Hercules To fight the rising odds? Isn't there a white knight upon a fiery steed Late at night, I toss and I turn And I dream of what I need I need a hero I'm holding out for a hero 'til the end of the night He's gotta be strong, and he's gotta be fast And he's gotta be fresh from the fight”

[@catche85]

I have the opposite problem in relation to my experiences. I am very compassionate and empathetic towards the position of men in today's society. But almost every single new one I interact with treats me with unwarranted and unprovoked disrespect. This makes it hard to maintain that level of compassion, even though I too ask myself "what journey has that man been on to make him that way?" (But that doesn't excuse the behaviour)

[@badwolf3618]

Thank you for your empathy, and for what it's worth, I am sorry those men treated you awfully. I know how you feel. As a man, I feel like I always have been empathetic to women's issues and done my best to understand them. I do my best to avoid being a piece of shit dude. Up until 11th grade, I had a very high opinion of women and a very low opinion of men (bullied by other boys a lot, didn't fit in, wasn't very masculine in a lot of ways, etc). I then met a really great group of guys who are all super good dudes and are my best friends to this day. Throughout college, my opinion of women decreased as I kept getting mistreated by them despite being very respectful and considerate towards them. My kind treatment towards them didn't seem to earn me any protection from their selfishness and immaturity, nor did it make me more desirable in terms of dating. I have struggled with this because I know it isnt the fault of all women that some women suck and treat men like shit, and I know that the women who mistreated might have their own baggage that has nothing to do with me. I also know that their treatment of me doesn't discredit or invalidate any of the very real issues that women face in our society. But fuuuucking hell it can be so hard to be the bigger person all the time when they treat me like shit despite me being the very kind of man they claim to think is the right kind of man. I am saying that I know how you feel, and you don't deserve that shit, especially when you're making an effort to bridge the gap between men and women when so few men and women seem to have any desire to do this as well. I guess all I can say is to not take it personally as much as possible, and know that there are good men out there who will appreciate your efforts and your empathy. Goddamnit it pisses me off that those dudes didn't recognize that they have a very good women right in front of them who wants to understand them when so few women do. Fucking idiots.

[@catche85]

@DanielSmith-nf3lv thank you for your kind words, I appreciate them greatly. That was a fascinating reply to read, as I have EXACTLY the same experience. I don't particularly like or respect women, even though all of the ones I know are incredible people. I can't help but feel that there are a group of men and a group of women being entirely misrepresented by the rest, and also being mistreated by the rest in the opposite group. The reply you just wrote to me is longer and more considered than any msg I've ever received on online dating and you're just a guy on the internet. I feel like there are women who have so much to offer to men in both a friendship and a relationship capacity that could help ease some of the more individual issues they face, but it just doesn't seem to be wanted. This burgeoning hatred between men and women is saddening. It's one giant macro version of a couple fighting, where one raises something, and the other counters it to ensure they are both able to equally blame and be mad at the other, and agree to just move on without solving either problem. I don't understand why the world seems to believe that you can't problem solve and reshape the world in a number of ways in parallel. We all have our part to play in uplifting society for the betterment of all. I hope we move towards having dialogue around "how can I help?" and not just "does this issue even exist and if it does why can't men just fix it themselves?"

[@catche85]

@DanielSmith-nf3lv and truly... thank you again for such a beautifully articulated response. You captured the experience perfectly and its actually comforting to know that both men and women need to, and can, work together to combat the poor behaviour of people in general. A lot of the discourse seems to suggest that it's the inherent traits of men and women that are the problem that needs to be corrected, when actually it's behaviour driven by other changed values and beliefs that does, and we're just trying to find a very easy scapegoat in gender. And it's okay that the inherent differences in the collective experience of men and women mean that the poor behaviour of all people in society affects them differently.

[@Volkbrecht]

As a general rule, when the vast majority of your interactions is negative, the problem likely lies with you. And what is paradoxical about this is, you may even be right in your assessment of the situation, but still be the problem. An example to put this in perspective: during my mandatory military service I was forced to make the aquaintance of a lot of young men who I'd probably never voluntarily engaged with. But that taught me an important lesson: very few of those dudes were actively trying to be assholes. They just sometimes didn't know better than to be rude, or inconsiderate, or maybe even just immature. If I put my standards aside, they were decent guys and pleasant enough to interact with. Since then I do give people the benefit of the doubt. Also, keep in mind Hanlon's razor: Never explain with malice that which can be sufficiently explained by stupidity ;) So maybe start with the woman in the mirror: are you maybe holding these guys to impossibly high standards? Can it be that you come across condescending instead of compassionate? Or maybe do you overstep, get too close, involve yourself too much without having been asked? Just a few questions that plopped into my head, may be something else entirely. But as a general rule, keep in mind that most people aren't bad people. If you experience them as such, there might be something wrong with the way you look at them.

[@catche85]

@Volkbrecht I appreciate the point you are trying to make and the theory is very valid, though isn't actually the case in this circumstance. The behaviours to which I am referring are the result of cultural shifts, anonymity of platforms, disinclination to see other people as real humans in certain contexts, and a host of other factors. While I appreciate your attempt to hold the mirror up, you've assumed I haven't already asked myself how I might be contributing. It's very easy to point the finger and say "well you're the common denominator" but my comment did not seek to apportion blame to men. I simply stated, factually, that I had a viewpoint that was difficult to maintain because I had experiences to the contrary. Please don't read it with any malice, it was just a fact. The questions you have posed are somewhat presumptive about the nature and circumstances of the experiences to which I refer. In that case, it's important to allow my rejection of your assessment without prejudice, as you aren't aware of what you're trying to apply it to. In saying that, your general sentiment is very valid and a useful one to pose in response to all issues that one experiences repeatedly.

[@edwardspray5930]

Jordan Peterson and Andrew Tate shouldn't be compared as similar lol

[@hungrymusicwolf]

It isn't just about not having a role model for men in the left, it's the roles they want men to take are quite frankly appalling. I am told to be crying, sobbing, emotional mess whenever some problem overcome me in my life. Then they say if men just shared their suffering and talked about it things would be so much better. I did share it, and the uncomfortable stares were the least of my worries compared to the gossiping people at the back making my life even more miserable than it was at the time. The ideals that the left hold for men are quite frankly catastrophic when actually applied. They do not hold any good when met with even the slightest amount of trouble. It is a horrible thing. I would never listen to them again. I did it for some time, and quite frankly it scarred me for 10 years and who knows how long into the future.

[@jonathan4831]

I've never been chastised in talk therapy for sharing my feelings. I guess I don't understand why one would care what the left or right think in terms of masculinity. It's really about what you want, not them. I want to be a good person, and shape my masculinity to that end.

[@hungrymusicwolf]

@@jonathan4831 🤦‍♂ "I don't care why one would care what the left or right think" - well that's because you haven't had the displeasure of being victim to their mentality. However many people have, so your reply isn't really relevant. As a teenager I was victim to the "boys should be sensitive and show their emotions" hype going around. People, especially women, were making themselves out to be empathetic people at the time and told me to open up. So I did. The gossip that resulted from it was not positive. I already had to deal with abuse, PTSD, and multiple other problems. That was not something I should have had to deal with as an already traumatized teenager just so left leaning women and girls could pat themselves on the back for being good people. People like you also don't help, because the moment someone starts a conversation to help address this problem with vulnerable boys that are already struggling emotionally you try to dismiss the problem because you try to make it about yourself. There are more people in society than you, and they deserve to not be treated with disregard and lack of care like you are showing right now.

[@jonathan4831]

​@@hungrymusicwolf I had the opposite scenario occur to me in high school, and was bullied by several male classmates. Middle school and high school are inherently toxic in my opinion, and set me back in terms of emotional intelligence. These conversations tend to blur the lines between age groups, and my comment was aimed at adults and not dismissing young boys. As a man in my mid-30s, I don't care about the opinions of people who are extreme in any political camp, but was more susceptible to it as young person. Young people project the values/opinions of their parents, pop culture, or of society and in the process hurt one another. We could change this process but I don't see parents coming together to create an effective approach because many lack emotional intelligence themselves.

[@Volkbrecht]

@@jonathan4831Emotional intelligence isn't a thing. There is intelligence, and there is introspection. You need both to assess yourself, but they are independent of one another. And contrary to what you think we are changing the process of raising kids. Quite a lot, actually. Teenagers are much less rebellious these days, mostly because conversation between the generations has actually become a thing. It may not be perfect, but we've come a long way in the last decades. What might skew your perspective is that you learned a lot of things outside of your family. But the fact that you were even looking for that is a sign that we're moving in the right direction. So don't despair. Humanity as a whole is still improving ;)

[@MsQ275]

Chris, check out the recent work of Nancy Pearcey on this subject.... her ability to apply history since the industrial revolution to current and how this has shaped the current crisis was enlightening ❤🙏

[@KnottyCeltic]

@ChrisWillx Can you make a tab on your main page listing all the book titles from your guests, as well as, the books you yourself recommend?

[@philliphickox4023]

Psychologist Toby Green the author of the Mens Room, said something like "women got angry when she pointed out to them that men also experienced many of the same issues at them."

[@badwolf3618]

They want to monopolize any and all discussion of suffering because any discussion of male suffering hurts their narrative that women have it worse. They know that inducing guilt and pity and empathy in other people is a great way to develop social currency and trust, so they don't want to share any of that with men.

[@dmcentYT]

No no no don’t throw Goggins in that negative tone at all. Anyone who listens, actually listens to him, knows he’s not toxic at all and more people should listen to his words and read his books

[@dj6P5U]

He just named Goggins as a well known traditionally masculine man

[@simonhadley8829]

I like Goggins and I'm a pretty salty old fart but even I get a little put off by his constant F bombs. It shows a lack of vocabulary and articulation.

[@MinomeEslinde]

There are good things in both books and things I'd contra-indicate, which is something Goggins himself recommends in both books Can't Hurt Me and Never Finished, don't copy him blindly. For both books, choose the audio version as the added podcast is really worth it. In particular for his second book, Never Finished, with the very insightful interview with his beloved mom. It's one of the best explanations of how a domestic abuse cycle works, what trauma responses are and how to rebuild life after escaping from the abuser, the many challenges in the aftermath. Great books, use them intelligently and add in some other good books by other authors, for a more complete view. Adapt to your own situation.

[@wifiguy51]

Goggins is a perfect role model for everyone. He is neither left or right (as far as I know), he supports and is open about his emotions, and he understands everyone's struggles, just know that we need to go and do it.

[@thisisthendgame]

I'm not actually sure why we don't treat toxic masculinity/femininity the same way we treat the non-toxic counterparts. I mean we know that men can have feminine traits and women can have masculine traits. So why can't women possess toxic masculine traits and why can't men possess toxic feminine traits? Women can be physically violent, and men can be emotionally manipulative . So what gives?

[@fribersson]

Some people view a set of (dodgy) ideas as a substitute for a personality. Instead of just being George, who agrees with some ideas and disagrees with others, but respects people. Articulate guest, and well worded, thoughtful take. Re Chris’ question 3:08 , some people suffer from Contracted Rationalised Trauma. And some people do find it easier to drink the kool aid than to think. Again, substitute for having a personality.

[@narendrasomawat5978]

There's no such thing as a toxic masculinity. Only direction is toxic.

[@jackcheney1244]

I would love to check out the debate in Quatar referenced in this video but I haven’t been able to find it online - does anyone know if it is available on KZbin or any other public sites?

[@thecaptain3594]

I think progressive liberal ideologies, like socialism, feminism, the sexual revolution, have a life cycle: 1. optimism: the belief this new theory of everything, this cure for the human condition, will solve all our problems. 2. Disillusion: the disappointment when their theories do not deliver on their lofty promises. 3. Identity crisis: people who have staked their lives, identities, and sense of self wrapped up in their ideologies suddenly don't know who they are. 4. Pessimism: the crestfallen feeling of ideologues as they feel that because their theories haven't worked, we are doomed to live in a world of intolerable inequality and injustice. 5. Cynicism: the negative, misanthropic view they adopt toward the world because it refuses to conform to their theories. 6. Naked power politics: the stage where the now embittered, cynical, misanthropic ideologues will force their theories upon us whether we like it or not, using the raw power of the state and elite institutions. I believe we are currently in the cynical/power politics stage of modern Western liberalism.

[@badwolf3618]

Holy shit that's brilliant!

[@davidfryer9359]

Masculinity is not toxic. Masculinity is intoxicating. Work out for a change and find out.

[@KaizenWithRen]

Essentially, balance is needed - just like in other facets of life.

[@aliciamcdonald7105]

ABSOLUTELY!!! And this is the problem with so much of RELATIONSHIP ills, IMBALANCE.

[@claudelk1719]

6:50 sums it all up!

[@jaythenihilist4689]

I'm approaching 40, and I've noticed a loss of testosterone. I've lost some of that "oomph" that I had when I was younger. I want it back. And I've been doing fairly well at it. Now, all of a sudden my labido is equivalent to when I was in my early 20s. And I get those urges to do something exciting or dangerous again. Maybe the reason that there's so many virgin young men today is because we as a society have systemically castrated young boys. Stop trying to turn men into women. STOP! If we continue down this path, then I don't see a very bright future.

[@MsQ275]

did you go on hrt or change diet, etc (it seems that environment and diet are destroying testosterone levels, which is very scary)

[@jonathan4831]

I would argue the internet had more to do with that than anything. Social media has become a rather discouraging place.

[@whenpigsfly8178]

Well, depends if you're a dad or not. If you're a dad, a drop in testosterone I think is normal, to make you easier to live with.

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

It's natural aging

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

​@MsQ275 It's natural aging to have decreasing testosterone

[@philliphickox4023]

In the mid 1980's I had a fantastic book that I learnt that I never got back, it was even better Warren Farrel, written by a Psychologist from the UK it was a limited run.

[@paganizonda1000ps]

Has anyone had the experience that in universities, especially in the technical direction, boys are extremely disadvantaged, so that the women's quota of the school is right. I have the feeling that this is done at our school. Often it is also talked about that there is a promotion of women in the Stem area. But I think that in the case that you have two shaky candidates (a man and a woman) the university rather throws the man out and the woman is generously rounded up so that she gets through.

[@BGlasnost]

One answer to the question that George was unable to answer: men receive negative gender stereotypes from their mothers because there has been a generation of single mothers having to raise children on their own, and the mother projects their negative image of the child's absent father on to the male child. This happened to me and so many others, and it creates issues that one must deal with for decades. One could blame the fathers for leaving or the mothers for projecting, but ultimately the fault does not lie with one gender or another, the fault lies with the whole of society.

[@ritalewis1021]

I wish we were all George

[@josh8078]

Im not "toxic" just because i am a man.

[@nooz1394]

Can anyone provide link to this Qatar debate Chris mentioned?

[@MyIncarnation]

There is no one role model that a man should emulate. There are characteristics that one should aspire to. Idolizing an individual uncritically is a path to the political polarisation which prevents men from improving themselves.

[@InsightfulZen]

You ask for a map and I hand you a blank piece of paper. I helped you.

[@mudman4500]

I think if you sign up for one of these courses the problem's already been solved.

[@thefuturist8864]

There’s toxic masculinity, and then there’s Toxic Masculinity. The former describes a particular set of behaviours that, if left unchecked, can be detrimental to men, women and society as a whole (examples of this include: constantly forcing others to compete with you, making an active attempt to make someone else feel threatened, demanding the repression of emotion (especially sadness and fear) and using every opportunity to play power games). The latter, on the other hand, is the belief that masculinity-as-such is a negative phenomenon and that no man should buy into it, on the idea that it (and it alone) is responsible for all the ills of society. Basically, there’s a distinction between people who want everyday life to be freed from the influence of a small subsection of the male population, such that the latter aren’t able to force the world to live at its preferred pace, and those people who just want to do away with men altogether. The latter is attractive enough to some women and some men that they’re willing to get on board with a movement that aims at this.

[@unsungronin8093]

What about Toxic Femininity?

[@helmutthat8331]

It wasn't just masturbation therapy, there were women that had their uterus removed as a treatment for "hysteria".

[@waylonbarrett3456]

hysterectomies are still very common

[@wanderer5200]

There is no toxic masculinity.

[@yallhellamessy9291]

But there's toxic feminism

[@whenpigsfly8178]

@@yallhellamessy9291 Yeah, -isms can be toxic.

[@fribersson]

11:34 why are mothers more intolerant than father? Maybe more built up frustration, resentment and anger towards men? Or perhaps realising they (or other women) don’t respect emotional men / boys, or they claim that “only women can be in touch with emotions”, or something like that? I’ve come across some women who were very resentful when they encountered men who were more emotionally literate than they were. Common when relationships are viewed as a competition, rather than a partnership.

[@postmodernmining]

Women don't have empathy for 49% of the species.

[@LTzEz03z]

There no masculinity affirming schools or surgeries?

[@GETTY-gr7gf]

Some women cannot understand the idea that both genders are suffering.

[@NegatingSilence]

Not really a fan of this thing where Andrew Tate and Jordan Peterson keep getting mentioned in the same sentence but I guess it's where things are at.

[@kingclover1395]

If for the last 50 years the acceptable mainstream conversation had been about what awful people women are, that's what we would all be talking about. But it's been about men. For some reason the culture and the media bought into modern feminism and therefore that is what we're focused on. In reality you can make just as good a case that women are the bad guys if you wanted to, or anybody for that matter, but that isn't where we're at.

[@Josh-rn1em]

Simp men brought this in. They prided themselves on being "good men".

[@annab3184]

7:48 holy shit

[@MajkaSrajka]

Smart lad.

[@MinomeEslinde]

It's odd that people who are offended by the concept of "toxic masculinity" and tell that this does not exist, never follow up with that "toxic feminity" does not exist either. When people claim that "toxic masculinity" does not exist, then continu to name all the ways that "toxic feminity" does exist, it tells about their views on feminity as somehow inferior and more dangerous than masculinity. It should be either "toxic masculinity and toxic feminity do not exist", or face the fact that characteristics that we model as "masculine and feminine" have a positive and a negative aka "toxic" side. To further acknowledge that humans have both in them, in different intensities, is another step, the Bem test is great for that. Each model of the world works up until a failure point. The debunked "flat earth" model works sufficiently accurate for measuring the floor of your room to determine how much carpet you need. A recent model I learned uses a quadrant of bright and shadow feminine, bright and shadow masculine, with how each bright and shadow have positive and negative qualities. This I think is more useful, than deny that soccer hooliganism is a typically (not all) male behavior (SomeWomenToo) that is toxic when it is, or that a good grandfather expresses healthy masculinity, that reputation destruction by gossiping is a typical violence by proxy behavior that (not all) women engage in (SomeMenToo) while a good grandmother is expressing healthy feminity, plus acknowledging that a good grandfather also has a feminine coded nurturing side and a good grandmother has a masculine coded resilience side, to make for a complete human who is positively affecting the world.

[@Cotictimmy]

Do the all Instagrammers teaching the Toxic Masculinity courses have blue or pink hair (& talk a lot about 'smashing hetero-normativity', 1619, defunding The Police)? 🤣

[@DuckFanDane]

I would say the reason that women and mothers do not like their boys crying is because they want to raise strong men that are going to find an attractive partner I would guess that would be the psychology behind it . Women find men who cry less attractive.

[@KnottyCeltic]

Why do people get mad when someone says boys and men are at risk? If it doesn't affect you, if you're doing fine, if you son is doing fine, what's there to get mad about? Move on. There are indeed boys and men who are struggling. Either move on or do something positive to make things easier for them. F*CK, volunteer to the Big Brother's organization so some boy growing up without a dad, has a positive male role model in their lives. IMO single mothers doing their best to do the job of 2 parents need that help too. The fathers of these children need to be pressured to do better for their children, boys need to be raised to know that a father in a boys life is probably thee most influential relationship the boy will ever have. So many children are raised in a single parent household or in foster care that they never have the role models they need to become well rounded, socially educated, adult individuals and then they having nothing to offer their own children.

[@blackblade1286]

During the video George mentions "if you look at domestic violence, like even in the most conservative estimates, one in three victims is a man"...I hardly can believe this, but I would be curious to read more about it. Anyone has a link to proper research which provides more insight into this topic?

[@badwolf3618]

It is actually is closer to 50/50. Women perpetrate the majority of non-reciprocal DV (where only one partner is violent), and men and women initiate reciprocal DV (both partners are violent) at equal rates.

[@blackblade1286]

@@badwolf3618 Surprising, but interesting. Do you have a link to the respective research paper/material?

[@MinomeEslinde]

Which aspect do you find hard to believe, that the number is so low or that the number is so high? Of course this podcaster tends to hyperfocus on only heteroseggsuals. But presume the subset of heteroseggsual relationships ignoring different relationships, as this podcaster tends to do. Among heteroseggsual domestic violence (notallheterododomesticviolence) , supposedly the grand majority 2/3 is men physically and or emotionally and or seggsually and or financially abusing women, a smaller but still big faction of 1/3 is women physically and or emotionally and or seggsually and or financially abusing men, which still is a very incomplete description of domestic abuse. Because as Roald Dahl described in his children's book The Twits, some heteroseggsual couples abuse each other in equal amounts, which is a horror for the children if they are forced to grow up in that toxic environment of mutually abusive parent figures. Also as neighbours to live next door to mutually abusive partners, it just is not great. The remark itself by this podcaster has a little bit of a victim Olympics vibe to it, which is not needed. Because domestic violence should be adressed to make it stop, regardless of the percentages of gender and gender combinations that do it. Are there some gender slanted aspects? Absolutely and we can work with that, among heteros, domestic abusive men tend to escalate to strangling their girlfriends to death more often, then domestic abusive women tend to escalate to stabbing their boyfriends to death in their sleep. Both need to be in the risk calculation, for victims in a domestic abuse hetero relationship who want to leave. Because leaving is the most dangerous phase, in a domestic abuse cycle. A common masculine coded property, is the courage, willingness and ability to see evil in it's entirety, to be able to do something effective about it.

[@danielmoyle5503]

There is only two ways this ends. One way is good for the currently reigning powers that be. One way is good for the common decent folk of the world. Both involve unavoidable violence.

[@jarredsegal6842]

If you look at an old vibrator ad you’ll notice it was suggested to help cure female hysteria

[@dinosemr8141]

💖❤️💖🙏❤️💖❤️

[@d.l.hemmingway3758]

If men are so toxic to them, then perhaps we should divorce ourselves from them as in don't associate with those who view us as toxic.

[@TimBitts649]

Youth is generally wasted on the young. That's an old saying. What does it mean? It means as you get older, you see things you don't see when you are young. Both sexes have this problem. With women, they have Toxic Naivety. About their youth and beauty, how fragile and temporary it is. Nature made women beautiful, to attract a mate, when they are young. But our feminist culture deludes women. Being young and with no experience, but beautiful, they are in their glory. Every man wants them. They think it will last forever. It won't. Before the birth control pill, women would get pregnant, have a baby, there was no need to tell women, you are naïve, your youth and beauty won't last forever. They found that out quick. On their own. Now? Birth control makes them naïve. With birth control, women need courses to cure themselves of their Toxic Naivety. A good place to start is Alexander Grace Channel. Video today. Aug. 6/2023 "Woman Slowly Realizes That It's HER Fault"

[@TimBitts649]

​​@@kc6810I looked up US abortion clock. 64 million. Surgical abortions. Plus 250 million more with pills. Hitler would kill for those numbers.😂😂😂

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

Birth control is just that. Historically women had no choice but to have 10+ kids

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

​@TimBitts649 Just think all those men didn't have to pay child support. Abortion = no child support Furthermore a great many of those are for medical reasons

[@TimBitts649]

​@@wyleecoyotee4252😢

[@TimBitts649]

You guys are right. I have been too hard on her. She should get rid of her kid. So she can make the boss more 💸 money. 😅😅😅

[@jimmyfitz8168]

We have to formulate the problem properly to solve it. How about men And women abused by their partners leave them and there won't be such a victim industry. But the state doesn't want that it doesn't give them an excuse to move in to the home and abuse men. Ultimately talking about shelters for battered men is pointless. The police are far more powerful than your partner and abuse and violence by the police to men is far worse.

[@postworld1185]

What exactly happens when you remove masculinity from a heterosexual man?

[@parrotshootist3004]

psychological gelding.

[@whenpigsfly8178]

A drop in birthrates like we're experiencing? More men going their own way?

[@dharmadasa66]

@@whenpigsfly8178 No evidence that men going their own way lack masculinity. They embrace it by defining and pursing their own goals. Chasing women should not define masculinity. Nonetheless, having children, a spouse and family is one way among several that masculinity can be expressed.

[@alexcleland4411]

This is just another barrier men have to break through these days. The whole idea of toxic masculinity is something to be completely ignored as background noise. People in general are toxic, not just men and not just women. Those of us with any life experience know that women can be just as toxic as men can be. This idea that only men can be toxic is sexist and gross. Dont be fooled, real, respectable, genuine women want a kind MAN, not this new age idea of what a man should be, these "de-masculined" men just end up single and frustrated, doomed to a life of being stuck eternally in various friendzones with women. Moral of the story is, dont be a toxic PERSON.

[@jumper9108]

These courses have to be a trolling attempt. People can’t be that slow to really try to implement such trash.

[@aelfredrex8354]

Take the offensive right away. Show up at the training course wearing a hair metal t-shirt.

[@theonlycozyjozy]

I wanted to understand the guest but it was truly difficult with how his points kept jumping all over the place and because of so he couldn’t seem to convey his message. Don’t get me wrong, I’m all for men’s rights and fixing issues. I just wish I could have truly understood the guest viewpoints.

[@necessarycynicism6304]

Mmm

[@euanolariaga]

6:15 was I believe the most important highlight of this great conversation. A lot of the views on masculinity at present come from a defensive stance. Masculinity is not something to heralded and protected, nor treated and demonised. Young men are defending definitions of masculinity from all over the place - often juxtaposing - because what is proposed as the cure to masculinity has no place for the majority of men, same way examples of uber-masculinity are rejected by most men. We need men who fit the profile of extreme masculinity to promote healthy behaviours and allow men to loosen their grasp on an unhealthy belief, and free themselves of such oppressing beliefs.

[@HighOnScience]

What makes most of serial killer men in history, single female households with an overly religious mother. How is this any different from all these single "feminist" women who " don't need no man"? Don't hold it to me but serial killers in 10 years will make the 70s and 80 look like an easy time. I would hate to be a boy with a feminist as a mother today just as I would hate being part of that "original sin" BS as a boy....

[@Maybe-cg2tn]

I'd like to speak to some Eunuchs.

[@ericcorrea8299]

Watch his mannerisms closely

[@BrofUJu]

The left has made their political ideology a piece of who they are. Ah, unlike the right who are totally different. Would much prefer if you actually tried talking to someone who has these view points.

[@SenorPenor1337]

The right choose what to believe based on the perceived identity of the person saying it, not what has been said. They also idolise politicians. Both sides need their hands banging together and despite all the terrorism and school shootings etc from the right, the left is becoming more dangerous because they have the media on their side

[@animula6908]

We need these kind of courses, but for homosexuality and transgenderism. Oh…wait…

[@JCJW101]

His interlocker wouldn have chosen a woman as a role model.

[@ge9367]

Algorithm

[@Ryan-wx1bi]

A good example of a man from the left would be RFK Jr.

[@digitalnevada77]

Exactly!! That’s what I was thinking about

[@The_Original_Default_Username]

Songle-handedly shut down a nuclear plant, thinks climate-deniers should be jailed, strong proponent of gun control...no thanks

[@robertdaniel3250]

Yeah he's solid 👍🏻

[@rhys2091]

That is legitimately one of the worst takes I’ve heard in my life, one of the men would be Jordan Peterson if he spoke about psychology and just didn’t give any dog water political takes

[@Ryan-wx1bi]

@@rhys2091 I think you take that award for worst take. Peterson clearly isn't on the left. And RFK is fit, speaks with integrity, treats everyone respectfully and doesn't back down from his beliefs.

[@TheRenegadeMonk]

Guys, being taken in by this empty garbage is only going to damage your lives. You end up bitter and alone.

[@AmeliaBodilia]

The traditional hierarchy of the family…. Life kicks the father…. The father kicks the mother… The mother kicks the child… The child kicks the dog. The trickle down effect is real. Be good to each other people.

[@wyleecoyotee4252]

Yup happens all the time.

[@ericcorrea8299]

Bet I can solve a rubix cube faster than him

[@ilyasboussalim]

Any 🇲🇦 here

[@naviifra2374]

No

[@shackusratus]

I'm first!

[@JOHN----DOE]

"Look at me, not my gender." The reason lots of women hate men is because men have NEVER done that and most of them still don't.

[@badwolf3618]

"Never"? Is it really never? Also, way to victim blame for being hated by women. Women would not accept being hated by men for the same reasons, so it isn't ok to say that about men either.

[@jasonhouchins1230]

I don't know where you find this shit, but as a liberal from 20 years ago, that isn't a part of it.

[@Bob-sd8ns]

Dudes: your victim complex is showing 😂

[@rossk3409]

These toxic masculinity courses sounds alot like the left wing version of conversion therapy... 😮

[@zoemoody6903]

to your opening question: it smacks of telling black people that white people are working under a great disadvantage

[@postmodernmining]

Ok. White men get fired or not hired on a constant basis for being white and male. So, yes, they are at a disadvantage.

[@user-wq2gq3ox4e]

Of course there are no any disadvantages for white people in african countries 😾

[@noonereally4798]

Maybe men talking to other men about this is more than a bit stupid, rather than the blind leading the blind, maybe you should listen to one of the victims of masculinity instead, I know listening to a woman sounds like the worst thing on earth because you don’t even see us as humans, but you’d be surprised how much better your life would be if you actually bothered to learn something, instead of being defensive 24/7 365.

[@anthonypillarella]

Okay. I've listened to a LOT of women. I'm aware of the toxic traits that exist in traditional masculinity. So has he. The man's still correct.

[@noonereally4798]

@@anthonypillarella 🙄

[@KevinJDildonik]

​@@noonereally4798Stop treating men as defective women.

[@noonereally4798]

@@KevinJDildonik 🙄

[@noonereally4798]

@@KevinJDildonik the most successful gene pool of men are the least masculine, and the most unsuccessful gene pool of men are the most masculine.