Why Does No One Play Punch-Out!! High Score?

List of High Score IL's and some general extra info - docs.google.com/spreadsheets/...
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[@danielrussey9579]

I think it hurts people's brains to see splits in points instead of minutes and seconds

[@Papamanual]

Big Speedrunning has infected their minds. Plenty of sports are not based on doing things the fastest and instead scoring the most. Not that speedrunning is bad, just that there is more to singleplayer competitive gaming. And while i agree highscore is not suitable for most games just because they have a score, I think Punch-outs score system and mechanics are actually really good.

[@cerealexperimentsgrain]

i think a good example of a game with a shitty scoring system is NES mega man. the stage clear points are randomized and you can also just farm the infinitely respawning enemies for points

[@sammymcfone8281]

More likely that the title contains the name of a convicted rapist. I noticed this video didnt have the games full title.... i wonder why.

[@sammymcfone8281]

If soul calibur was called "Jimmy Savilles Soul Calibur" nobody would play that either....

[@germanelkapo1]

There's also min score, but with how easy it is to get points in some games, it can get on TAS levels of precision, plus there's the matter of checkpoint legality, since, on one hand, they disappear enemies around, but on the other, your score doesn't roll back. My favourite is the arcade of "Toki: Going Ape" (tried it with savestates). You die in one hit, and deal damage by jumping over things or shooting them. Dealing damage awards points, so the absolute minimum score would be a extremely precise TAS, while in real time it'd be better left for individual levels.

[@pineapplequeen13]

This is making me think it would be really interesting to see someone do a TAS of a theoretical "max score" with perfect RNG and player inputs.

[@Papamanual]

i have 2 on my channel, and 1 more unreleased... I will reveal it when I make a video about how the TAS highscore run will never be done by a human.

[@pineapplequeen13]

@@Papamanual Fantastic! I'll check them out, thanks!

[@caseyjarmes]

Seeing Summoning Salt get mentioned in someone else's video on high scores feels weirdly backwards

[@Papamanual]

lol. backwards in which way? that someone gets to mention him instead of him mentioning other people or backwards cause its score and not speedrunning. Or I guess both?

[@caseyjarmes]

@@Papamanual It is weird to see the speedrun history guy get mentioned instead of being the one mentioning

[@wombat4191]

@@caseyjarmes Yeah, would also feel weirdly backwards if someone made a video on Goldeneye and Karl Jobst would be mentioned as a speedrunner :D

[@chimericalical]

@@Papamanualto me it’s definitely both.

[@drengnikrafe]

The thing that really surprises me is the lack of IL high score. Between the luck demands and the degree of mastery each fight requires to truly squeeze every point out of it, it seems like it would be both the perfect bridge into the larger SS run and a fascinating competition on its own.

[@Papamanual]

I have every world record in IL highscore. I just didnt mention it to prevent myself from seeming too boastful or arrogant. I think they can be used as a bridge, many of the IL WR's were achieved with the strategies I would recommend for High Score Single Segment (which are in the tutorials), but some I also went out of my way to create an IL strategy for (like Super Macho Man - I will not let this record be taken from me easily :D ). The ones I didnt go out of my way for, its most likely cause i literally couldnt think of anything better and the single segment strategy was already pretty good.

[@crafteiddave1625]

@@Papamanual Future Summoning Salt video. The Quest to Beat Papamanual.

[@SSM24_]

I don't play this game myself so take this with a grain of salt, but the most standout thing to me is just how it involves dragging out fights as long as possible. It reminds me of 2D fighting games, in particular how zoners (a character archetype based on keeping distance and preventing the opponent from approaching) are generally less popular than rushdown characters that focus more on aggression and fast-paced gameplay. It's not that zoners are _inherently_ less interesting to play, or allow less room for strategy, it's just that the style of slowing things down and playing responsively doesn't appeal to as many people compared to rushing people down and enforcing strong offense on their own terms. I think something similar might apply here.

[@Papamanual]

I suppose its possible, but you are also not dragging the fight out for the sake of it, there are still "things to do" to score points.

[@N12015]

@@Papamanual But so applies to Zoners. They don't drag the fight because they want to, but because they would get destroyed if they try to rush things down. People in general DESPISES defense, most of us lack the patience to just sit down and analyze it, because is just boring to do nothing which is what high score kinda encourages at times. Speedrun by nature is trying to be as agressive as possible while getting away with it, which is a more appealing style.

[@Papamanual]

@@N12015Ok I see now. I also agree people despise defence and I see this in many sports. The offensive awards are generally more prestigious and more numerous than the defensive awards. Even statistic wise, the offensive play leads to a "+1" to that team, but a defensive play is to prevent the "+1" but is overall a "net 0" score change. Only "aggressive" defensive plays are really rewarded. In basketball there is usually some risk in going for a block or a steal, if you make it the crowd "oohs and aahs" - On the other hand, if you bite on a fake shot or pass to go for a block or a steal, you could be left a sitting duck and are potentially humiliated by the offensive counter play. There is little perceived reward for just locking down an offensive player and preventing them from even making an offensive play, all you are really doing is drawing the game state to a stalemate. I suppose from a viewer perspective of punchout, the speedrun is more enjoyable to watch than the highscore run - Ive had people comment on my highscore WR saying that it kinda looks like a casual playthrough lol, and I also agree that it looks like that, but to actually play it, its quite different.

[@cademcmanus2865]

SALT MENTIONED

[@smoceany9478]

@@cademcmanus2865 ?

[@MacInTheBox]

Wild how Summoning Salt can have such a banger YT channel AND be the best at a game. Knew he was good at it but didn't know he was that good.

[@yellowdicesam]

sleep can wait, punch-out is more important p.s. petition for pap to make the tyson vid

[@Papamanual]

Ill make it eventually.

[@cleveland_tom]

great video Pap, thanks for including me. Great love letter to the category. If this doesn't get them in the door, I don't know what to tell you...

[@ikercalderon163]

Actually surprised it took this long for a high score video, I was waiting for it for a long time!

[@Larszard]

The high score strategies for this game absolutely fascinated me when I've got a taste of them from your previous videos on it. Didn't realise it was so niche among the community!

[@BleuSkiddew]

7:30 I imagine that people taking a liking to speed running for additional reasons; ✓ You could do it with almost every game especially if you determine rulesets like "Quickest to 1 million points". ✓Speed running is almost like enjoying a firework because it's quick, but spectacular while a lot of people see high score as watching a candle burn. ✓Speedrunning is arguably easier to practice because in some cases, you could practice dozens of runs in the time it could take you to get a successful high score run. ✓ in addition, responsibilities are important so for a lot of more casual people in the speed running community could fit a 20 minute Speedrun in between getting out of class and dinner, or between putting the kids to bed and sleep.

[@Papamanual]

Absolutely, I agree. to speedrun is fun, but I dont think highscore isnt fun just because its the antithesis of the speedrun. Just to counter your points for the sake of argument: 1. Cant really counter this one. Speedrunning is a bit more universal in the sense that you just set a goal and aim to complete it the fastest, whether you want to speedrun points, or game completion or fastest time to complete the Tyson code, it doesnt really matter. Its arbitrary. In fact, many contemporary sports are not "speedruns" and are infact based on score - basketball, soccer, American Football, even single player sports like highjump, long jump etc. Not everything has to be a 100m sprint or a 26 mile marathon. 2. I agree that a fireworks show could be spectacular, but I would also argue that there is also beauty in watching a candle burn. I think people just to things that are over quickly. It's all subjective. 3. Speedrunning is definitely less time consuming to learn and play, but still the highscore run for MTPO is still shorter than many other speedruns speedruns - of which people still engage in. 80 minutes is hardly a long time. 4. Basically the same as 3. Speedrunning is just less time consuming to participate in and not everyone has the time. The point of the video was just to bring highscore MTPO into awareness. and partly a reason for me to ever play the game again should anyone contest my scores - I enjoy the competition.

[@jungsa4691]

I remember this game giving me so much trouble in my childhood. I barely beat the second fight... and here you guys are, farming stars.

[@cainking7943]

Because it’s called “Mike Tyson’s Punch Out” and not “Punch-Out!! Highscore”

[@Papamanual]

This makes no sense

[@August_NighttimeNeko]

Why is it called an oven when you of in the cold food out in of the hot food

[@integercyclolcyc]

you are smart asf 😀

[@HaakonAnderson]

It should be called Mike Tyson's High AF because he loves weed.

[@breadmilkYT]

​​@@PapamanualPunch-Out!! Highscore in the title of the video reads like a title to a game that isn't Mike Tysons Punch Out. This is an official BreadMilk comment

[@rewandemontay]

Time for another awesome video before I go sleep, heck yeah.

[@notatimelord21]

Alright great video but with the category ranking you missed a very important point about the tyson challenge, the tyson challenge is a great way to tell what your overall tyson consistency is, especially for new runners like me, because during ILs if you mess up there is no punishment you just reset but during the tyson challenge once it starts have to keep going no matter what and a few missed punches can be quite punishing

[@Papamanual]

Yeah I did think about that. its a category based on consistency. Overall, I still don't like it, you play the fight the same way as you would fight Tyson in IL's and only more safe on the last few fights if you really want to preserve a PB in "Tyson Challenge" and not accidentally throw it away by missing frame perfects.

[@notatimelord21]

@@Papamanual My personal opinion on the category it's a fun little category that you do when you feel like it and it all depends on the runner, I think it's fun and you don't which is a perfectly acceptable opinion. Like I said great video but I wanted to share my opinion on something

[@Papamanual]

@@notatimelord21 Yeah, I dont dispute it cant be fun. Just that it brings nothing new.

[@silverflight01]

It's an interesting category with a LOT of strategizing, but I can definitely see why a lot of people are hesitant to try, it's so different.

[@I-ONLY-BUILD-MECHS-AND-DUSTERS]

Scoring on console has always been plauged by infinite scoring patterns and such, so most people have disregarded it rightly so. It's mostly arcade games without infinites that have some remaining scoring scene. And at the end of the day, there's no real competition for scoring almost any console game. Like you yourself said, people are going to play arcade games and shmups for that.

[@Papamanual]

True, but aslong as you dont allow clockstop glitch which the speedrun also disallows (can max out points on Soda this way) its not a never ending game. You can cite lack of competition. and thats partly why this video was made, to bring attention to the category which I see as being just as challenging (in different ways) as the speedrun.

[@bulletflight]

Oooh sinister1 is on the list.

[@Saddude4452]

Been loving your content homie :

[@mrhalfsaid1389]

I feel that the main thing with high scores being generally de emphasized as a competitive goal in most games is simply because points are often not as easy to actually gain in an intuitive way. Like for example seeing that you earned a second advantage in a high level run, most people can see that this is impressive because the concept of a race is a very well understood one in every society, even indigenous ones. High scores are often seen as lesser because many don't see much meaning in saying i got an because for all i know a million could be easy to get. Another reason is that people generally prefer tests of skill than test of skill AND endurance... I think that my final point is the main problem with commiting to this kind of skill display, just because it is simply overly tedious to actually do consistently

[@Papamanual]

Sure, you can tell who is winning in a 100 meter sprint, or a swimming race. But many other sports are based on points and the highest score wins - Tennis, Baseball, Soccer, Archery, Long Jump, Basketball. Tests of skill vs Test of Skill + Endurance I can see people be dissuaded from. But Punchout Highscore is hardly a test of endurance, its only an 80 minute run. Most MTPO speedrunners (and maybe most speedrunners in general) stream attempt after attempt after attempt for more than 90 minutes at a time. And in the end, they may be grinding some sort of ridiculously lucky thing (examples: 3/3 weathertenko or Don 2 world record) which overall, is a test of mindnumbing endurance. I dont buy that reasoning.

[@SchAlternate]

Appreciate the use of Starcraft music

[@reedenschache4066]

i was looking for this video the other day...

[@RadicalRaymondd]

As someone who competes in virtual pinball and hosts events, it does sometimes boil down to taking the safest strategy that is also decently scoring, it's not worth it to go for something risky with a slightly better point to time efficiency rating if you can go for something really safe and still score at a moderate pace and just drag the run on with a not interesting repetitive motion. That's where good table design and point balancing comes in. A good table will make sure that there aren't any stupidly repetitive ways to safely score points and will also make sure anything risky is genuinely worth going for. In addiction to a good table never punishing you for missing an intended shot but punishing you for missing only. I've had a passing thought about wanting to introduce a side event in what I host for a timed mode to see what would happen, where scoring efficiently is rewarded for more than survival. would also manage event length so much better since people keep getting better and getting longer traditional runs. Hearing your thoughts on how the timer adds depths to scoring has motivated me to giving it a try

[@Papamanual]

That sounds good, even though I think the timer does give depth to not playing extremely safe, just taking your time and scoring slowly, I dont know how well it would translate to pinball. If the players of pinball really are that good, they might actually enjoy it, but for less good people, I think pinball is more about Survival and points accrue due to your ability to survive. Im glad you pointed yourn point to time efficiency, thats a factor in highscore strats... excluding knockdowns, Star punches are always the most time efficient way to score points, but depending on the fight, not the most damage efficient, adding even more complexity.

[@Kirbymasters87]

I am currently watching this at work and I will watch it again after work.

[@maus999]

great video

[@bruneleythor2604]

If I reach enough skill level, I will try the highscore run for sure

[@Niagaranobs]

Oh my god. He did a summoning salt.

[@OGBuddah]

Great video! I rarely see anyone talking about anything outside speed runs. When I set the world record for Super Metroid many years ago, there were four categories to run and I picked what I felt would be the hardest, which was 100% completion without saving the game, and recorded what was just a normal play through of my favorite game. I have little interest in runs that are minimal items collected or using glitches. But I still do have respect for those total completion runs I catch here and there. It kind of felt like the item collection percentage was the modern version of the games score. But that is just my humble opinion, thank you again for the awesome video.

[@darthlingspeedruns]

Great video as always! I've loved watching the tutorials you made High Score for the knowledge, but I haven't had time to finish learning all the strats to start runs. This is on my to-do list for the summer, after promising a group of people for a while I would do this. I've been nudging people to give this a try for a while. The run lets people showcase game knowledge, while having a nice amount of problem solving that is missing from the speedrun strats.

[@hefdef9961]

If the score attack scene makes a revival shmups are back on the menu boys

[@IanSparrow]

Really interesting video! Subscribed.

[@thelastgogeta]

Great video to have in my feed. I was hoping to hear The Electric Underground (Mark) get a mention, but you channeled some of his energy when you discussed strategy and implications. Mark from TEU is a channel almost exclusively focused on shumps which is a genre which is very gameplay dense, score focused (once you get good enough) but simultaneously incompatible with speedruns. A lot of that genre is growing on console first now so we've had plenty of hits in the last few years like Gunvein and Hyper Demon. Speedrunning can definitely be tacked onto any type of game, but it is a bit of a crapshoot if they won't get patched in an unappealing way, have an uninteresting speedrun for those engaging with it or whatever else. Scoring can be designed poorly of course and doesn't necessarily suit every game, but having an ending isn't exclusion criteria. If anything, being able to try and practice again in 30 minutes while disallowing milking for score is why they have such lasting appeal with those who get into them.

[@shrekshooter9487]

great video as always! Hopefully this video pulls some new players into the category! not to say im gonna try it 😅 the first half of this game was tedious enough already on ss for me.

[@PenelopeStoneVT]

I shall consider it!

[@bobbysnobby]

Probably the future would be a mix of score and time. It would alleviate a lot of the complaints and specific fights, also opens the doors to routing using some fights as point farming locations and other fights as "time" farming. Simply dividing score by some incriminate of time or setting some baseline time marker and multiplying the score per unit time saved to keep higher values for ascetics

[@twinstarMD]

Hmmmm. Nice vid Pap! Darthling has been trying to talk me into running hs. It is a fresh take on mtpo competition. Ima have to look into this ;)

[@TheGlitched64]

I don't run punch-out but all these points really ring true with a game I run, The House Of The Dead: Overkill. The way to play for high score and speed are diametrically opposed, it's a whole new skill set you need for both, which makes it a whole new expirience, basically getting to learn a game you love twice

[@Phos9]

I think about the only genre that has a major high score scene outside of endless games and some rougelike format games are Shmups, and in that case I think it’s because they tend to A: have a more intricate scoring system and B: they tend to be composed mostly of autoscrolling levels. Both points are important, as they avoid playing for score forcing you to stall the game for as long as possible while still adding the complexity.

[@nathangamble125]

Starcraft and Pokémon Mystery Dungeon background music in the same video... Nice.

[@TimArcHik]

Do you have any plans for a video with an actual dive into how perfect high score fights work, similar to your "why perfect speedrun will never happen"?

[@megahellreaper]

Y'know, I always wondered why that wasn't a category. Seems way more fun to me than just doing it as quickly as possible.

[@mattf5855]

Pap punch out videos are always amazing! I know you don’t speedrun them right now, but have you given any thought to speedrunning wii or super punch out?

[@Papamanual]

I dont know or own any of those games.

[@mattf5855]

@@Papamanualthats fair lmao! I thought they might be fun to learn about

[@johntabin4297]

Great video. I toyed with Punch Out high score in 2017, and started working on strats for the three Minor Circuit fights; I still have a document on my hard drive from back then called "mPap HS advice chat" that's just a cut and paste of a ton of knowledge that Pap had dropped in my chat during a stream. I had some notion of eventually piecing together a full single segment high score run, but then I got distracted and stuck with speedrunning Zelda 1 for the next seven years and counting ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[@Papamanual]

Now that you mention it, I do remember this happening lol.

[@MrIcenice44]

Somebody probably said “Nuh uh”

[@cruelcumber5317]

I think the person suggesting that score based play not being a thing for console games is because the arcade games where they do care about score go on forever is very flawed since one of, if not the, biggest genre that consistently gets people playing for score is shmups, the vast majority of which aren't infinite. In fact, it's a key component to any game with a good scoring scene that it ends, otherwise it will just ultimately become speedrunning to a counter stop. If I had to guess, I think there's two big reasons why scoring on consoles was never a thing while speedrunning has been for a long time. 1. Speedrunning is a lot more "intuitive" than scoring. To get good at scoring you need to not only learn the scoring system, but also need to learn where in the game you can best take advantage of how it works. While speedrunning is very difficult and a lot of games have top levels runs that are similarly complex to scoring, getting into it at a basic level is much more straightforward since everyone can understand "Do the same thing, but faster." 2. The vestigial scoring systems that exist in a lot of console games are really really bad (hence why they're considered vestigial). I think a good example of this is the first Mega Man game, since it's not only super basic, just shoot things and pick up points items, but also, Mega Man has infinitely respawning enemies and no timer, so if your goal is to get a high score, you find an enemy that you would feel comfortable killing for long periods of time and then do that until you've gotten enough score items that you get a counter stop when you finish the stage. That being said, Punch-Out's scoring system does look like a really good one, so I really like you putting this together. It's primarily milking strats (where you ensure a section of the game goes on as long as possible to maximize point gain), but there's nothing inherently wrong with those so long as it's still interesting and engaging, which this appears to be. Plenty of great games have milking being a core part of scoring, and this belongs right up there.

[@TurboGhast.]

When Pap described Punch-Out's scoring system, it reminded me of ESP Ra. De., a game that is infamously milky because scoring involves fighting the bosses until they time out to get as many powershot tick points as possible.

[@davidrule1335]

FYI one of Don Flamingo's challenges in title defense is to win by decision. Kind of means ,knock Don down only twice in each round with out him landing a glove on Mac. I liked that fight, it was fun.🥊🔔

[@SirJoelsuf1]

So I remember about 15 or so years ago I attempted to do a points run on this very channel. Was waaaaay back when I called myself by a different name. Series was called "Punch-out Maximum Points." Never really cared for it because I sucked, but after seeing this as well as Pap's points tutorial...I'm gonna start my own points runs. Should be fun.

[@dragonarrow5525]

A console game that does actually have an active high score community (or active at some point, at least) is Super Monkey Ball. Admittedly Monkey Ball high score runs are much more similar to speedruns than Punch Out because the main sources of points are time and bananas you pick up along the way, so there is not nearly as much incentive to stick around in levels unless the time you lose is made up for in bananas.

[@lessercrow]

This video really resonated with me. I've never played Punch Out in my life, and probably never will, but the way you pitched the High Score run mirrors the way I try to convince my friends to play TCGs with me in very esoteric and time consuming ways. I can really relate to that feeling that others do not have that same obsessive drive to delve deeper into the rules and mechanics, right up to their absolute limits, whether that be out of disinterest or fear of ruining the appeal of the game. Thanks for making this video, even if I have a completely different set of interests and life experiences, I feel we are kindred spirits.

[@andreworders7305]

Tom has a sick mustache

[@chimericalical]

So, uh, semi unrelated question… Where would I find a leader board that’s got videos of runs for high score 1cc attempts in shmups like R-Type III, Gradius, or something of the sort?

[@Sugar3Glider]

Feels like this category would do better as a segmented run

[@lounowell4171]

Score is deeper than time but harder to balance.

[@TitaniumDragon]

I suspect a big part of it is how much longer it is. The shorter a run is, the more times you can attempt it per unit of time. I suspect this is a big part of SMB's speedrunning popularity - it's such a short game, speedrun attempts are very fast. The longer categories are, the fewer people tend to participate. And when you are doing a game which is VERY heavily RNG-influenced, a long run is even worse. By making your fights 6-9 times longer, you're making it so that each run takes way, way, way longer. Also, I think speedrunning is just flashier as well than the max points strategies in Punch Out! There may be strategies involved in max score, but in a lot of speed runs, you either never get hit, or only get hit strategically in such a way to make things faster. Max score in Punch Out looks... way jankier.

[@Supersonic6427]

How to make highscore challenges interesting - add a time bonus (or special bonuses in general on top of the time bonus) that varies depending on how fast you complete the level, then it's just routing how to obtain the most points WHILE ALSO finishing a level as quickly as possible for the added time bonus. It allows for varying and maybe even unique strategies while also still being fast paced if people don't enjoy slower paced runs.

[@Papamanual]

its interesting to have a time based bonus for a sort of hybrid system, like the system Donkey Kong has. Although, I believe the Barrel boards never favour this style of play, and i think the rivet board you can sort of get extra points when its safe and you are almost at completion. Other than that, the pie stage and spring stage do favour more points for quick completion. Punchout doesnt have a native system like that, that sort of system would need to be human imposed. That being said, I dont think its necessary to involve quick fight completion to make high score punchout fill at least some interesting niche. The highscore strategies are already pretty involved, in-depth and challenging in their own right. I have yet to see anyone, myself included, bring out the full potential of the category.

[@Supersonic6427]

@@Papamanual I think in terms of finding people to compete in scores, it might be best to find people who 1) enjoy long sessions, 2) don't mind the learning curve, and 3) enjoy going for the highscore. I think this' a scenario where you'd need to find its intended audience.

[@Papamanual]

@@Supersonic6427 I agree, thats why I made this video - to bring it into awareness that this is a way you can play the game. I cant force people to run it, all i can do is 'advertise' the idea of it.

[@TurboGhast.]

This comment made me realize another difference between Punch-Out and Shmups (a genre where the primary form of competition is scoring): Shmups tend to have in-game scoreboards, and often give extra lives to players who reach certain scoring thresholds to encourage people who only want a 1CC to check out the scoring system. Punch Out does neither of these things, which hides the depth of its scoring system.

[@nicathenoob19]

Challenge: beat Punch Out!!! Without any uppercuts

[@sawgydawgy-jv7ov]

Eatng good tonight

[@crtchicanery9605]

My own take on why scoring dropped off generally: A good scoring system can be very, very fun, if it's designed in a way that emphasizes interesting play patterns. Lots of arcade games feature repetitive strategies to farm points which only appeal to a small subset of players. Most people do not want to run out the clock while jumping next to DK over and over. But arcade games got by with poor score design because the public leaderboard was so tantalizing. It's okay if the method isn't that fun because there's a big billboard in a public place celebrating your achievement. That's fun! Consoles did not have that advantage. Most games through the NES didn't even have a save feature to track a leaderboard, and there certainly wasn't anything public. On top of that, score design generally didn't improve either. If the play patterns aren't fun and the best way to show your score publicly is mailing in blurry photos to Nintendo Power, then it's just not very engaging. So most people laughed off the score component of early console games. We have online leaderboards now, but those have their own issues. Besides, the damage was done. Shmups are a standout in score because they've put so much work into making score reflect fun play patterns. You're always moving forward and only have a set number of targets to work with, so you have to find routes that maximize your yield from those, rather than finding something effective and abusing it to the maximum extent. (there are excepitons like farmable bosses but bleh) Those still have active scoring communities. I wish more genres would follow those examples and create compelling score play!

[@daxmoney5011]

I actually did a high score run and I think it’s Top 5 on the leaderboard (as of 05/01/24) lol. The run is pretty terrible though I really had no strategy’s and just went in it blind it was mainly just for fun. I would probably do it again once I finish my Tyson IL grind

[@joejoe-zx1iq]

At least punch out and super punch out were released on arcades to participate making high scores. I find that strange and nice that super punch out for the SNES have a leaderboard for time attacks and high scores.

[@polygon586]

Arcade games were played for high score as opposed to speed not just because they were often endless, but also because they lacked an in-game timer. Speedrunning is old; but all the early speedrun games were games that had in-game time. Timing with LiveSplit and retiming from recordings is so ubiquitous now that it's easy to forget old-school speedrunning was almost universally IGT, there was no LiveSplit, and only a minority of games (those with in-game replay files, like Doom and Quake) had recordings. (Some people pointed cameras at their screens, but it wasn't typical and even those who did would run out of tapes.) MTPO being a popular game with an in-game timer allowed it to develop a thriving speedrun scene long before for example SMB... which meant all the strategies were being developed and shared by and for speedrunners. And speedrunners, as the name suggests, tend to run the game for speed. Nothing wrong with exceptions like Pap, and high score does look like a deep and very skilled run.

[@tonyslicer7399]

Took me day beat this game when came out but ring king probably game might like more

[@mathrocks83]

I have a question about IL records. Are players allowed to do "Another World Circuit" for tries on Hippo, Great Tiger, and Bald Bull 1? It doesn't save much time, but does cut out Don 1.

[@Papamanual]

yes they can use AWC to go for IL wr's

[@17Master]

Personally I would be interested to watching a high score run at least once just to see how it goes. But I can definitely see the delay before getting to the challenging fights being a massive turnoff to viewers as much as players.

[@Papamanual]

Its not that much of a delay, maybe 30s to a minute to gather thoughts or converse with chat (back in the day when I played) - about the same time as a timeout in basketball. Its tough to memorise all the strategies. Cleveland Tom said he was only closed book for half his run, he was referring to notes before and during fights.

[@DaniloGanzella]

going for points instead of time is the IRL equivalent when the fight is bogus and the fighters go easy on each other so there is more time for the sponsors to show ads and the people feel they paid for a good show lol

[@Papamanual]

True that lol. They should just make basketball first to 10 points instead of playing within a 48 minute time limit.

[@andreworders7305]

I imagine not being a speedrun doesn’t but being hosted on a speed running website doesn’t help its popularity

[@Papamanual]

Well im grateful that MTPO mods put the category there (it was a few years ago) - so it already gets more exposure than it was getting from being on TwinGalaxies (hasnt been touched there for like 15 years) and highscore.com where players didnt even need to uploaded video proof (photo was good enough) and people could vote if it was legit without having any knowledge of the game. Speedrun.com system with peer review from that games knowledgeable mods is the best current solution for verifying such things. There was discussion from the old owner of speedrun.com to also implement highscores in some way, but nothing seems to have been done since then and through the ownership change - www.speedrun.com/forums/the_site/1gbee

[@FramebyFrameanimation]

Do Why Does No One Play Punch-Out!! Low Score?

[@Papamanual]

Cause its shit.

[@thegamingchannel9899]

Do you record your speedruns to KZbin?

[@Papamanual]

All the important ones are already on my channel. I havent speedran in 3 years.

[@jamesknapp64]

interesting video

[@andreworders7305]

1:39 weird considering the in game timer isn’t even in seconds half the time

[@Papamanual]

Even though the timer isnt in "real seconds" its still a better metric for judging a players skill than a real timer.

[@dictatorofcanada4238]

Who on the leaderboard got banned??

[@baconcatbug]

High score tas when

[@themadvirus613]

Send us some high score tutorials and TASs and maybe I might take you on.

[@Papamanual]

Tutorial playlist - kzbin.info/www/bejne/j3XMZqSfgdKSsJI An old TAS - kzbin.info/www/bejne/bJ3VZZWAlsuJZ8k I have a new one i havent released yet, it will be for a video.

[@Renchamos]

Hard 😢

[@donvaeth4462]

Another great video Pap. When I was getting into highscore I thought it would be a slop but after doing one run I was hooked. I hope this video will motivate more people to play, it's so much more fun than it looks. (Also never thought I would make it in a video 😄)

[@lewiswithey4472]

Great video! I feel like low% runs are counter-intuitively the 'modern' equivalent of high score runs. Both are relatively obscure within the competitive single player scene, both can involve some mindless grinding segments that put off the majority of the core player base, and both utilise novel strategies not found in any% or 100% runs. The factors making low% relatively more popular than high score likely come down to it being possible to stream casually, potentially having long low action segments for audience engagement, as well as a time element still being present (you can gain WR achieving the same goals but improving overall gameplay). Because the potential for further potential score is to an extent finite and known, there's not as much of that feeling of "if we finish strong we can snatch the title" that makes speed running so engaging.

[@fakeletobr730]

how the quickest lowest highscore would be? is it closer to a highscore run or a speedrun of a single run of the whole game?

[@Papamanual]

to play low score optimally, you need to spend a lot of time on the fights trying to do damage slowly and efficiently, its closer to the length of a highscore run. I did mention the star punch is both the main tool for speed and highscore, so to go for low score, you cant use star punches, which means fights are going to be slower.

[@fakeletobr730]

@@Papamanual i see, so it would be like, doing the least possible of dmg to end each fight on time?

[@Papamanual]

@@fakeletobr730 Well you sort of try to do the most damage on each individual punch to score the win. I have a video of low score on my channel to show what a TAS of it looks like and many fights go into round 3

[@fakeletobr730]

@@Papamanual i see, thanks for the help by clarifying it all to me, thanks for the attention!

[@teeman9266]

Im stuck on soda popinski

[@chandl34]

Civilization and Through the Ages could be played for score.

[@aliceyuri]

because summoning salt hasnt made a video about it obviously

[@jknifgijdfui]

I just wish more high score based games were popular

[@thelastgogeta]

You don't go to Tokyo for a burger and you don't go to speedrunners for score play. They are comparably niche, but score players are common in the shump scene which are basically carrying the banner of arcade design at this point. Look for The Electric Underground or Shump Junkies. The former also covers a lot of other types of games, score is his thing still.

[@jknifgijdfui]

@@thelastgogeta electric underground is an annoying snob

[@thelastgogeta]

@@jknifgijdfui Fair.

[@TurboGhast.]

Touhou is relatively popular series primarily consisting of shmups, the genre to play if you want to compete for highscores.

[@Firealarms_Vlogs]

I wonder what Macho’s reaction would be if you beat him by decision like if you could

[@Papamanual]

I think only sandman has the glitched sprite, all the others do their "winning" animation even when they are forced to lose.

[@Firealarms_Vlogs]

@@Papamanual I’ve seen Hippo and Sandmans reaction when they lose. I saw the video from “Master Phred”. I’m guessing Machos reaction would just be his stunned face when you put him in the face.

[@marzipancutter8144]

To me personally, chasing highscores just isn't as fun? There's something that gets really exhausting about methodically milking every single score opportunity as much as possible, both in watching it and doing attempts myself. It actively costs patience to take time for every single interaction, which is kinda the opposite to speedruns.

[@Papamanual]

And yet to speedrun, you still need patience. no PB or world record is done in a single attempt, you have to play the game over and over and over, its just as repetitive in my opinion. I suppose there is a slight difference in the nature of repetitiveness, but it had no effect on me, Punchout speedruns and punchout highscore were equally fun, atleast for me.

[@marzipancutter8144]

@@Papamanual Yes, that is true, but I believe those are different kinds of patience, and in this case that makes all the difference to me. I'd rather grind out a speedrun 10 times than do even one highscore, it's kinda hard to describe but it's exhausting in a different way? Like you're working to work more rather than working to improve. But then again that may be just me. And that is even though I usually like methodical playstyles in games.

[@johndoe-rq1pu]

I don’t know the answer, but I know that Matt Turk is involved

[@Papamanual]

sadly not this time.

[@soundrogue4472]

6:24 doesn't sound up my ally; I like SPEED, finishing things fast, quick action strats and not drawn out matches for points.

[@Papamanual]

Fair enough. Im not saying everyone has to like it, Im just wondering why no one wants to play it.

[@soundrogue4472]

@@Papamanual By chance are most of the categories on said speedrun site page, are people playing for the sake of speed? High score has never been a popular category on speedrun sites in general, it is and always is the least popular category with rare exceptions.

[@Papamanual]

@@soundrogue4472 Its just there on speedrun.com because Summoningsalt decided to put it there. At least it has the slimmest of chances for exposure there. Another reason I made this video was to give it further exposure. There are, as far as I know, no other highscore websites that have a good moderating system like speedrun.com (mods who actually know each game verify runs for each game) rather than having random people vote, who may or may not know anything about the game (like TwinGalaxies) All I wanted to point out is that Punch-out highscore is more interesting, and more in depth than people might believe from a surface level glance. I dont see a reason why playing for speed is anymore interesting than highscore. In many sports, people play for score rather than speed and there is a decent mix of the types where people play for score (basketball, soccer, american football, darts, bowling, highjump) and the types where people play for speed (swimming, sprinting, marathon, Formula 1, cycling.)

[@soundrogue4472]

@@Papamanual The high score runs really aren't all that interesting; to you they are. There is a good reason why high score run sites aren't all that well moderated. Even the COD zombies survival rounds for high score runs aren't interesting once you reach the most optimal strat. That one Poker game where you have to adapt and try to get the highest possible, the one with rogue like elements IS interesting because you have to adapt and are given RNG to bounce off of.

[@Papamanual]

@@soundrogue4472 I mean, the notion of "interesting" is subjective. I dont think all highscore runs are interesting, and I dont think all speedruns are interesting. My honest take on it is that on average, across most games, speedrunning is more interesting, the games that do have highscore is just excessively repetitive gameplay, point farming and bland and too straight forward. My argument is specific to Mike Tyson's Punch-Out!! that highscore for MTPO is as interesting as the speedrun. Strategy wise, it requires you to stuff your brain with even more game knowledge, particularly for niche situations which come up rarely, but nevertheless, they do come up - its excessively challenging, there are few dead spots in the run where there is little to do, or little to focus on and where there are deadspots, you can plan in your head your next course of action. This might sound very elitist or something but whatever, its the best analogy I can think of... but when the average persons sees a painting, they perhaps dont care about all the tiny details and intricacies that go into it, and they might not care about it as a piece of art. (Eg. The Mona Lisa is somehow a famous painting, but I simply dont care about it, perhaps im ignorant or im not well versed enough in painting to really appreciate it) I think there is something to that. To really appreciate something, you have to go deep into it, and I dont think anyone other than cleveland_tom and myself have gone deep enough into highscore to have any sort of appreciation of what goes into it on a technical level. (sinisters run was very good for the time, but is also missing many mechanics which became known afterwards, so the knowledge base his run was founded upon wasnt as solid and many things that he mightve thought were random or unlucky was just him not knowing exactly how the game works) Obviously, going deep takes time and commitment, of which many people dont want to invest into something trivial like highscore for some random 37 year old game, but if they were to, they would choose the speedrun, since it already is pretty deep and is quicker to learn. I wish MTPO highscore wasnt some sort of "meme sidequest" but I guess its doomed to be that way.

[@Rompeglavn]

Punch out is a fast paced game unlike other arcade games which are slow. I prefer going for the highest ammount of points possible on slow paced games, like tetris. On fast paced games, like castlevania or super mario bros id rather going for the lowest times.

[@aries23judd84]

Hi Pap

[@jonah1976]

I'm not scared. I just don't have the level of autism required for speed runs in any context.

[@Papamanual]

Sounds like what a scared person would say

[@wiiuowner5251]

I'd do some mtpo runs but I don't have any of the approved hardware :(

[@Papamanual]

cant use any of the available emulators?

[@wiiuowner5251]

@@Papamanual I'd rather not commit felonies and dumping nes cartridges is a hassle. If I could dump it or obtain something like the NES Jr., then, I'd run it.

[@Papamanual]

@@wiiuowner5251 fair enough.

[@wiiuowner5251]

@@Papamanual Just learned that Punch Out is in NES Remix 2, so I can dump it from there. (Source: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NES_Remix)

[@LovroPlaninsek]

on one hand, when going for high score most of the fighters at the start of the game are boring, on the other hand, you barely ever see patterns and mechanics in round 2 and 3 which has always been a shame - few people look into it and form strategies, and even fewer care so I feel you there, you do indeed need more game knowledge for high score BUT there is one thing you should keep in mind - the score system wasn't made to be played as an arcade game going for as long as possible, instead it was made to be a tiebreaker and the player isn't meant to pay attention to it at all times, in other words the game wasn't built around the score, it was built around the fighters and obviously beating them, so the speedrunning just feels so much more natural as the goal of the game and what to compete in there are depths and extra layers of the game which only get explored in high score, but it's not enough to justify for the vast majority of players, be it speedrunners or otherwise there may still be depth to the game mostly unexplored in high level playthroughs (or whatever you want to call them), the midground between speedruns pulling one way and high score pulling in the other, I will not pretend like I know the solution since I've been just an observer for the longest time and only relatively recently got a copy of the game and an NES, for now still just playing the game casually and loving it, one day I'll look into the strats in detail, but I'm from europe so running on PAL which judging only from that one src forum post basically means I'm automatically an outsider to the rest of the community lol maybe that's a misconception, but I've always had the impression that well, if no one cares about high score, then NOBODY, n o b o d y cares about PAL and its differences, and I never found a proper answer as to why or just didn't know where to look, and couldn't be bothered to ask someone myself so yeah, there's my opinion as to why no one runs for high score, what's your opinion on why no one on runs PAL on a high level? 🤔 (again, genuinely interested)

[@Papamanual]

Thats a very thought out response. As for why does no one run PAL? Well, my guess is that its because the original community formed in North America which is NTSC - and such most records and forms of competition are based around NTSC times. With lack of competition, there is even less drive to play PAL. I havent technically timed it out, but I think PAL MTPO is faster than NTSC MTPO, and PAL (Mr Dream) is even faster than that... So speedrunners definitely dont care about "getting as low of a time as possible". There has to be an essence of competition - its less fun to compete by yourself... as I found out with highscore.

[@gfdggdfgdgf]

Obviously because nobody wants to p#ss off summoning salt.

[@demi-femme4821]

I honestly don't care much for speedrunning. I like character action games because the culture is less about playing optimally and more just about seeing what insane shit you can get away with. Yeah, I COULD beat 4-1 from ULTRAKILL in less than 20 seconds, but I'd rather just play through the whole level.

[@darkreyule]

Hi Scores were added to arcade games for one reason, and one reason only. To get you to spend as many quarters as possible to get the highest score possible to put in your initials.

[@CZPC]

Silly pap, punch out runners can't count.

[@Papamanual]

Say it ain't so 😢

[@k_three]

Dogging 90 minute cause it's 'not a speedrun', then advocating high score smh. JK bud. Really loved this video, the depth of understanding the game in the manner you do for high score is absolutely bonkers. I love how all your vids have such great clips that highlight what you're talking about, and some even humorous examples if you know the game well :) Your editing is really impressive man.

[@cupsoup7244]

I only own the shitty Mr. dream’s punch out!! Not the real man’s mike Tyson’s punch out!! So I can’t even compete 👉👈

[@Papamanual]

As long as its a NTSC (North American) version, the version with mr dream plays the same as the one with mike Tyson

[@vilanokaizo]

3 letters R N G

[@Papamanual]

I declined to say this in the video, but while RNG does play a massive factor... 250k should be achieveable in most runs if you get good enough.

[@futurewario9591]

Just imagine how much easier it would be to have a World Record Highscore 🏆 than a Speedrun World Record 🏆 since almost nobody does Highscores.

[@Papamanual]

Well, come and take it from me then, show me how easy it is.

[@atmatey]

Bullet hell shmups like DoDonPachi, Ketsui, Battle Garegga and Ikaruga are one genre that are based on scoring but aren't endless. Usually people shoot for a 1 credit clear and after that focus on learning the scoring system for even more depth to the game. Mark from The Electric Underground channel explained in his documentary "Passion Against Reason" that score-based high-level arcade play is often more interesting and less arbitrary than speedrunning. The speedrunning meta can change randomly depending on what exploits and glitches are found, and are often split in several arbitrary categories. Shmup scoring systems are often well thought out and the games are designed around them from the start. It's what allows these games to be played for thousands of hours and the player can meaningfully improve their play throughout that whole journey.

[@JC4.80]

This is a fascinating category. Maybe I should get an NES and give it a shot? I’d like to see an Australian top 2 😉