Why is there no Jungler in Dota 2?

[@ArminHaba]

21 Minutes and 30 seconds summarized in one sentence: "jungling was patched out of dota because it's boring."

[@Spaloooshify]

King

[@silmarpinheiro3455]

I miss being that Medusa farming ancient camps lvl 1.

[@ramstab]

lol wait what? i got back to the game like a momth ago after a 6 year pause, no wonder i had like 1 20 every game

[@JonezBBQ]

I would argue that always having the same lane setup, 2-1-2, is more boring. Jungling in Dota 2 was unique and provided more freedom and methods to play the game.

[@penyu1913]

​@@JonezBBQboring wasnt the reason. its because its bad to jungle in dota but people still do it and let some random toplane suffer a 2v1 especially tower worth alot more back in the day. make the game more insufferable jungle role wasnt supppse for you to jungle at minute 0 they suppose to counter the 3 1 1 laning meta back in the TI and let the offlaner that left with LITERALLY and i mean LITERALLY 0 exp to jungle

[@imthatjayson]

This feels like listening to the history of dota laning. So insightful

[@thomasprice9256]

Would be interesting to have a history video looking all the way back to the insanity that took place regularly in DotA 1, back before the meta was stable whatsoever!

[@ehrenromblon5392]

There's also poor man's shield before for the solo hero, makes you immune to the support's right clicks.

[@That_dark_dude]

Nightmares

[@rudipras9924]

Do you know the other nighmare for support? Necro book unit...

[@scipio764]

​@@rudipras9924Necro 3 is a bitch. Can't even Glimmer to get away from them.

[@TemFuzzy]

@@rudipras9924 another nightmare would be a first pick legion commander rush talon and farm his dagger for 30mins only to give damage to the enemy

[@midingperme4226]

i miss that shield so much🤦

[@danielandres1407]

Ever since I found that guide video for beginner's I've been binge watching your content to learn about the game. I finally got my first 2 victories this week after learning about basic pulling and my role as a Soft/Hard Support. Even got MVP in a 13/7/7 Witch Doctor game! I don't think I'm SUPPOSED to carry in the role but man does it feel good !!

[@ZQuixotix]

Thanks for watching, and congrats on your MVP!!

[@twisted5039]

Stop playing bro its not worth it get out while you can

[@TheRaughSand]

@@twisted5039 don't spread your negativity please. The fact that you were not lucky and didn't have the right attitude to enjoy dota doesn't mean that he can't/shouldnt

[@EricChien95]

@@TheRaughSand Pretty sure he is making a joke in which he is now addicted to the game "get out while you can".

[@thegrub1741]

​@@TheRaughSand r/wooooooosh

[@AggronAaron]

Essentially it used to be a popular role with Naix and LC, but as more nerfs to jungle camp stacking, sustainability, maps expansion, it seems more practical to run a roam build than a jungle build

[@freshlymemed5680]

I miss jungle Enigma/Venomancer. Just infinitely farming tri camps, rushing a blink dagger or something and just coming out of nowhere to ult people.

[@Moody1110]

@@freshlymemed5680classic

[@Archspore]

I was running jungle Tinker back when Talon came out. Could hit 3 camps at the same time with March. Gave me 8 minute boots of travel if enemies didn't contest.

[@Nuvizzle]

It was basically never good but it was popular with pubbers who don't know any better. The real reason jungling fell off, more than anything else, is that people are just better at the game now and understand it's just not good.

[@QWERTY-gp8fd]

its still good. team overall will get better networth if its done well@@Nuvizzle

[@KevsShwaShwa]

I think you can really play dota in any way you want and you can play it right. Honestly, there's so many ways to play the game and it's why I prefer it over league which is a very static and repetitive game. It's preference but I feel the dynamic freshness that a good video game should give players in ways to play.

[@oldmandeckhand]

league? what even is that

[@DHAGSFU]

@@oldmandeckhand The most popular moba game in the world

[@cloyun-hee9564]

Definitely agree. I've played both games for several years each and there's just so much more room for creativity in Dota

[@jyashin]

No that's just not true. Dota 2 is only "dynamic" because nobody plays the game. There's only something like 10 million daily players in Dota 2, whereas in League that's how many daily players exist in just a single Riot region (which is far less than the non-Riot regions). Dota 2 just doesn't have the population to optimize the strategy. League comes out with new and strange ways of playing, but the population very quickly adapts and learns how to completely destroy the rogue strategy. Also, keep in mind that League is balanced around fighting ability. This means rogues become very easily to demolish as the playerbase skill level improves. One last thing. Dota 2 is just a right-click snoozefest that is balanced around jumping unsuspecting players. So on a micro level a lot of different rogues can exist, but on the grand scheme of things Dota 2 has been playing the funnel strat for the last 10 years. If the game ever gets anything remotely close to League's population, Dota 2 would be optimized on the micro level, resulting in an extremely stale game.

[@KevsShwaShwa]

@@jyashin Neither is that true haha. Dota used to be absolutely massive and was never optimized on a micro scale because it’s too dynamic a game. There’s more mechanics and more game in the game. 10 million players is enough to optimize a micro game as well. This point makes no sense. Only one country plays American football and I believe they have figured that out better than any other country. Canada is the best country at hockey, they produce the best players time and time again. Population size means absolutely nothing for optimizing strategies. It’s easy to optimize league, gpm plus CS is a guarantee at higher levels of play. In dota 2 the simple mechanic of denying and wave blocking makes things less guaranteed therefore making it harder to optimize because the game itself is more dynamic. It’s not a knock against league, I’m glad both exist.

[@1norwood1]

Man sounds like the lanes have changed a lot since I played, I used to mostly play as a support and in some circumstances the offlane preferred to be solo. It was super tricky to play supprot in a two man offlane a lot of the time you were basically just leeching XP for little benefit. As a result it was relatively common to Tri-lane (maybe 1/3 of games) you'd run 2 supports and the carry in the safelane, one support would pull the wave and fully deny it to the jungle (I don't know if it's changed but you could pull the wave to two different camps to fully deny it). The other support would babysit the carry and do stuff like stack camps and deward and help mid lane get the runes. What you talk about as being bad with offlane having no XP was pretty common, level 1 offlane after 2 or 3 minutes was kind of normal, if the offlane got levels I'd consider myself failing to do my job as a support player. It was only really after first rune had spawned and supports start leaving lane to put up wards that offlane was able to eke out anything. I remember Wisp used to be really broken, you could stun people with the tether which made it perfect for bullying offlane it got nerfed though :(

[@namagem0]

I’ve genuinely wanted to cover the era that you describe. Baumi’s recent series of documentaries cover some of it but not all of the mindset and meta that controlled those early years. Prove Reviews still has some videos kind of showing the transference between the eras of dota that help explain the tectonic shifts in gameplay that I think aren’t just fascinating but also informative to where we are today. Legitimately something I’ve considered just making since besides those two channels, no one talks about the how and why we got to where we are. I find it intriguing and also inviting to learn more about a game that has had eras come and pass like the tides or the seasons.

[@joshua666]

we called it the chinese 3-1-1 strat and that pretty much how we all played back in the days of wc3 and early days of dota2. 2 supports babysitting the main carry and just let the offlaner solo is always the way to go!

[@distritochristianangeloa.157]

I always thought Iron Talon is the sole reason why jungling doesn't exist I really make sense with your breakdown

[@QuanTrietLOL]

I've known before Talon that any ranged dps (sniper, traxex, wind...) can jungle. Hell Kotl is even especially good at it

[@LoLaSn]

@@QuanTrietLOL It's pointless to jungle without items that let you do it efficiently, it takes such a long time to kill neutrals by yourself otherwise, that the tiny trickle of gold you get is nowhere close to lasthitting lane creeps

[@mehshutup3041]

​@@LoLaSnit's different back then, axe could farm blink and vanguard in under 12 minutes and stomp from there

[@ananthdayakar4401]

From your first reddit post I saw outlining pos 5 responsibilities to this video, you've always been articulate and clear in your explanation. You make high level concepts simple to understand with your infographics and explanation. You deserve a lot more views and subs, I'm here from day 1 and hopefully I'll soon see the day you get 150k+ views on all videos. Keep up the good work!

[@darthbinks5987]

Back in the day when there were no role queue and jungle creeps spawned at the same time as lane creeps. We used to have a jungle dude killing your pull camp and no support. Not having a courier was common thing too.

[@noobgamerplaygame3382]

1 cour for all where everyone NEED their item and try to use courier greedy mostly mid and carry

[@さよナランチャ-h6v]

@@noobgamerplaygame3382That shit was so annoying

[@Digitalsong808]

You forgot to mention they made jungler creep more powerful at the same time less gold and xp. I remember there was a time killing a centur would give u a 110 gold and double the xp of the range creep in the lane

[@zsushi3316]

been playing since d1 i don't remember this at all

[@namagem0]

Nah that’s really a thing. Would’ve been before 6.77 if I’m not mistaken, might be earlier.

[@zsushi3316]

@@namagem0 probably because I'm a kid and a noob back then

[@Delimon007]

@@zsushi3316 It was a thing (I don't remember the range buff) but definitely the gold and jungle camps being weaker. They intentionally made them harder to kill and even gave them less gold payout :(

[@R4MM57EIN]

Less exp, less gold, harder camps.. still the urge to go wk midas jungle is there (and ruin the game for everyone else ❤)

[@Delimon007]

Because you can farm the camps on anyone rather than needing summoner spells and the likes to do it (such as in League). There are also other mechanics like stacking, rotations, etc. Anyone can and will jungle/rotate and the game is better this way. The camps are also intertwined in the lanes themselves so you don't have to walk completely out of lane to farm a jungle camp.

[@henryyang802]

Tl;dr, of the video I guess?

[@TheGlenn8]

I do kinda miss the possibility of jungling early. Though I think that even if it was still viable mechanically supports these days are so good that your offlaner will just get annihilated by the enemy support. Hell, a huge difference as to why jungling is viable in league is because both solo lanes will always 1v1 each other where as in dota the solo lane will be in a 1v2 scenario. Even in league people would not jungle when laning is just a bit more efficient than normal because then you could potentially stomp a solo top lane.

[@enesaydin9257]

In League there's tons of things to make jungle viable and at this point its never viable to not have a jungler

[@rahulshaw1698]

Really bro jungling is a nessecity in league not an option. They even have a summoner spell named smite for jungling

[@internetexplorerchan2697]

Its a different case in league, as it said from the vid, levels are scaled from the champ's level but needs efficiency so that is why smite exists or with ability that could works on jungling (Eve, Yi, Elise or Lee Sin), and they need some strong items efficiently to scale further on midgame.

[@Voidkom]

@@rahulshaw1698 It hasn't always been that way. Even with smite, league has seen many different lane metas before junglers became an integrated role.

[@abogmus8904]

jungling is viable in league because league was made into what it is today with Jungle being a core position. that's why Smite, pets and older coloured smites (jungle-specific items) exist. in DotA jungling is emergent gameplay mechanics. it is not forced on the player. i think for this reason comparing LoLs and DotA's jungling is redundant better would be to look at something like HoN, where jungle is still viable and actively pracised

[@stephenlyon1358]

What do you do when there are no creeps till 1 min? go mid and grab some free exp from lane creeps, grab some flame from midder - then you can then put "ez mid" from the saftey of your jungle whenever the mid dies.

[@90Rush]

I think the 2017 DAC meta was so extremely toxic that eventually led to IF to overkill jungling with laning changes. Before that there were LC and Axe Jungling and afterwards only heroes that can use creeps to gank do some jungling. When pro teams put their mid hero into the jungle at level 2, something is wrong. Both Dota and LoL had a meta where supposedly laners went into the jungle. LoL had a time when "offlaners" disappear and do "duo-jungling", the patches just changed in different ways. Dota 2 chose to make jungling bad and make stacking better, LoL chose to enforce 1-1-2 laning and force the jungler to use an item slot forever.

[@lmntsgames3848]

The reason jungling was removed was because it is OP.. jungling is too safe to play.. unless you're playing Bounty Hunter or other elusive support it is just unsafe to invade a jungler.. meaning junglers can build a full item even when laners still don't have upgraded boots yet.. I personally managed to farm a blink dagger on LC in just 5 minutes.. personally built maelstrom on NP at 7 minutes.. spirit vessel on Veno at 9 minutes.. mekanism on Chen and Enigma in just 8 mins.. radiance on Necro at just 13 minutes.. it is way too easy to do, very difficult to punish.. and games snowball from there on because the junglers will always have their items first before any laners get it, unless one laner snowballs their lane.. that's how broken it was and became more broken when Iron Talon was added..

[@avyfa1946]

Yes, but you also had only 2 people on safe lane, so enemy 3 pos had way more creeps and xp, while your 3 pos probably had to sacrifice himself for 5 creeps during 5 minutes. While it gave your team good advantage in terms of gold, it meant that you gave advantage to enemy pos 3. Also, jungling and overall flexibility of lines gave birth to very interesting picks with 3 vs 3 lanes, double mid and etc. Game feels too rigid now.

[@kelvinlim9857]

But the downside was, Support in your team was only 1, and your Offlane was having a hard time to face against its opposing lane. Especially, pick LC jungle, buy Midas, and farm 24/7. Then after the game lose, LC blames the teammates.

[@vic44rd]

Wow youtube recommended section did me wonders this time. Great video.

[@kuroko22]

I remember lv1 jungling as AM and void. Buy quelling + shield + tango and blink on the spesific spot in dire jungle. 20 mins later my team suddenly have 2 carries Lmao good old time

[@Nikolai0169]

As a League player the massive difference in our games systems are fascinating. League would be unthinkable without a dedicated jungler on the team, and has been that way for most of its lifespan, excepting the early days when there were just a handful of characters in the game, let alone any that could survive the jungle camps. The devs have continually made the jungle more accessible and important over the years. Its a completely opposite philosophy of how a jungle should work compared to what you have in DotA. And thats not even getting into lane creep mechanics, like the facts you guys can deny creeps or even have creeps fight the jungle for you. Hell there are so many mechanic complexities DotA has that League doesn't I could go on and on. I definetely see why you guys have such a large following, and from the glimpses ive seen when I dipped my toes into the game I think I can confidently say that DotA is the more difficult game to learn and master. And on top of all that you guys have been given the tools to make absolutely incredible custom game modes as well. Its astonishing how different these two children of the original DotA have grown up. They may look the same to an outside perspective, but their views on how their games should work could hardly be any more different.

[@sosig6445]

League used to be fun and allowed a lot of experimentation. It was basicly Dota2 but more accessable and more focused. There weren't too many unnecesary complexities but there were several uniqe and fun game modes, and the meta was non restrictive. Early in LoL's development jungler wasn't a dedicated role and instead was a choice of leaving the top laner to 2v1 or not. Half the matches 1 team didn't have a jungler and that team had equal strength most of the time. The jungler had a race against time to try to outscale the advantage of the enemy 2v1 lane, and to be unpredictable. Now Junglers recieved so many buffs and help that the role is a must have and not a choice, and the entire clearing was reduced to 2-3 hyper efficent routes. It's so boring you can usually predict top level jungler's gangs DOWN TO THE MINUTE before the match starts, the only unpredictability is now from the jungler players mistakes (ganking a half a minute late because they fucked up the order of a few camps). Every single hero that had multiple role eventually was nerfed and forced into a single role. and every game mode and map was removed except for aram and summoners rift. It's very telling that out of 200 heroes the professionals only play 15... the other 180 are those that were nerfed into the ground for daring to be viable for more than 1 tactic....

[@さよナランチャ-h6v]

Old Dota 2 sounds like the Wild West; anything goes

[@phuocvu4150]

Jungle in the past was a main position, now it is only an optional farming area after you secured/lost the lane

[@Mayhamsdead]

It was NEVER a "main position". People primarily picked any hero to "jungle" in order to avoid supporting, or lanining against a hero they didn't like. It was considered griefing then, it's considered griefing now, but back then they couldn't do anything about it. Thank God for the changes. TL;DR: don't be a filthy casual - there was NEVER a < Jungle Role > in DotA 2.

[@phuocvu4150]

@@Mayhamsdead if you are talking about LC then it is correct, LC was always a griefing picks, that hero should have never been in the Jungle. Jungle role back in Dota (Warcraft) was more impactful, heroes like Chen and Enchantress were the only viable two for the Jungle role and they were serious threats to any offlane or safelane.

[@nirogacaradhigama3788]

​@@Mayhamsdead wdym never, when you start play dota lil bro ??😂😂

[@Mayhamsdead]

@@nirogacaradhigama3788 DotA Allstars 5.83c.

[@nirogacaradhigama3788]

@@Mayhamsdead u correct about position but role and how relevant it was u wrong , it was relevant budy hero like darkseer np ursa ls and big 3 lycan enigma and chen was real things during 2010- 2013 period in pro and pub ,but during late 2013 "first blood" update they start crank up the lane creep exp and gold these are times were start to diminished for jungling, on top of that from 2013-2015 there so much change in dota perception as esport so during thhres is multiple balance change to jungle in general early and late game because I t wasn't interesting seeing dude hitting creeps from like 10- 15 minutes, and they start re introduce jungle again at 2015 with iron talon,but during 2010-2013 it was real and relevant role but not position its either pos 5 or pos1 will take jungle and become jungler at early game

[@Zestieee]

i think it's quite unhealthy how the League devs try to make the jungle role easier and easier with every patch just because they _want_ it to be a thing. In League, roles are something that is absolutely static because the game itself forces them to be so. The few rare exceptions to the dev-driven meta are addressed almost instantly. There aren't unique strategies available, the devs get to decide what is viable and what isn't. Which is something I strongly dislike.

[@bluejay7058]

I think another thing about the lack of a jungler is that pull camps are so damn important for sidelanes, whereas they literally don’t function that way in League. You don’t care that the jungler is clearing house in League, you ALWAYS care when someone hits the jungle early in Dota

[@bardfall9555]

Yeah Just because some champs are somewhat viable in very specific situation because they don't fit the role they envisioned they nerfed them...

[@Zestieee]

@@bluejay7058 yeah indeed, and there's no such thing in League because the jungle was designed and modified through the years to always be something that only the jungler is supposed to take. and this is very forced, because most champions can't really deal with the jungle early without the specifically designed jungler starting item and the specifically designed true damage nuke on creeps summoner spell that you choose before the game starts... i really don't like how they dealt with the jungle role. and the fact that in every season of patches they make it easier and easier because most people in lower ranks won't play it since it's too different from other positions and they won't want to learn it... it's just a domino effect of bad decisions. maybe i'm too 🤓 about this but i really don't like it.

[@Zestieee]

@@bardfall9555 yeah, i feel like there is always less and less flexibility in League as time passes. they will design a champion for a specific position and if it gets played in other ways they'll change it... in Dota on the other hand lots of heroes can be played as either cores or supports depending on your items and your ability build. maybe they won't be as good in both types of role, but at least you can experiment so many things, which in League is becoming always harder and harder to do.

[@tomekapinski46]

I slightly disagree. Rito's approach to jungling and metagame structure in general isn't inherently bad, because they don't make jungling easier but open - it doesn't make playing the game as jungler easier in itself (game difficulty depends purely on how good your enemies are). Instead it makes jungling more accessible to many diferent heroes with very diverse archetypes. Want to pick a scaling jungler which turns into a carry in the lategame? Np bro, pick Yi, Kayn, or some other melee carry. Want to pick a strong utility ganker which will crush enemy team in the early game? Sure thing, pick Lee Sin or Sejuani. Want to be an asshole to enemy team and make enemy carries ragequit in 10 minutes? Here you go buddy, just pick Rengar, Kha or Shacko and make enemy Jinx afraid to take a single step out of the base. That said... While it looks good ON PAPER, RIOT are absolutely atrocious when it comes to actually balancing this shit. Like, seriously... Your favorite jungler is actually doing well in current meta? Sorry asshole, new patch incoming, expect your hero to be smashed with nerf hammer so bad it's not playable anymore, better fond something else to play with... except you're Lee Sin main , in this case Rito will make sure this blind shithead will be strong enough to be picked in pro games because teh flashy outplays. Only 3 viable jungle picks in tournament? Who fuckin cares, at least our little baby boy is being played! What are you saying you little shit, are you actually complaining that he's getting picked every game and i'ts kind of stupit considering this bullshit game has hero pool of about 150? That's even better, stop complaining you stupid peasant! That's one part of the problem. The other thing is actually where i completely agree with you. The thing is, while rito's idea of making jungle accessible to as many heroes as possible (ON PAPER...) is in itself not a bad thing, they compeletly eat shit when it comes to being open to player innovation. If someone develops an unique (and viable) strategy that breaks off with basic structure of the meta (like Yi-Taric funnel combo), instead of embracing this thing, treating it with carefulness and attention and giving players time to adapt and come up with counter strategies, they will DESTROY THIS SHIT. They won't treat this phenomenon as a oportunity to enrich the meta and make it more open and diverse, who needs this shit right? :D They will just get rid of it like nothing ever happened.

[@Raecrisos]

I remeber how previously neutral creep spawn when the game started which still encourage jungle then they forced neutral at 1 minute which still viable until reward,exp, creep level become not worth to farm early

[@CautionCU]

I really miss that jungle, trilane, flexlanes were removed.

[@chikin6146]

They weren't removed perse. The meta just shifted. Difference between not being able to do something anymore and that thing being inefficient to do. Jungler role did get removed now but you can still do it if needed i.e if you're in a completely bad match-up in lane

[@pinkpidgeon6926]

trilane lanes are still viable though i see aggro trilane when i see them(3 on off)

[@justlikeyourfathersaid]

Everyone that played with your dead weight in the game are glad tho

[@JJDRG]

Jungling is more viable with the current meta only if the position 5 can hold its own. Hero’s like oracle, enchantress, mirana. Pos1 is the only one that can jungle. Midas is a must . Offline can not jungle because their safe lane will free farm. Their offline free farming is manageable imo

[@Frstypwngaming]

So I'm watching this "in the future", why is there a jungle role now in the "Draft" phase of the game? Playing in a duo lane is pretty toxic in most matches at low levels

[@skittering]

Suppose jungle/trilanes suddenly become viable again. Which offlaner would do best in the 'suicide role'? Most of the current crop are too greedy, maybe a sand king?

[@mohal-sal3998]

Timber and DK. Once they get to lvl 3, it's pretty hard to kill them. I have won 1vs2 with offlane Lesh and Doom before. In this case, you have to priortise buying speed items before anything else.

[@WhenIHit88MPH]

​​@@mohal-sal3998 think heros with survivability at lvl 1 like Sand King are better for beginners because you will lvl up faster. But I agree. The problem is hitting lvl 3 because your opponents will likely hit lvl 2 before you hit 3 and in a 2v1 they now have 4 abilities to your 2. You will get absolutely bullied or killed in that lane without help. Leaving lane or setting up a gank will likely be the only options.

[@pinkpidgeon6926]

@@WhenIHit88MPH Tide and Bristle used to nice if you could get levels but phoenix was best.Nice trade and with built in escape.

[@moonjellying697]

Love these kinds of videos where you just explain things to me

[@SK3564]

I started playing dota a bit before jungling stop being a thing. So it's cool to learn why that happened.

[@whatdothlife4660]

I started at Outlander patch when Neutral Items came and Jungling was dead so I'm blessed.

[@Blitzkit]

No offlane would want to be alone in the early phase. That's like giving the enemy carry what they wanted.

[@seadragonet1738]

meanwhile in lol: people are getting to chall with double jg

[@abexuro]

I think another thing that makes jungling viable in LoL is the lack of denies and pulling, you are forced to push the lane into the tower of a single offlaner. Combined with stronger towers making it harder to dive, duo laning isn't necessary to get cs.

[@Sammysapphira]

The reason jungle is viable in lol is because they give you 3x dps as a jungler vs jungle mobs and you can clear the whole jungle and gank

[@baonkang5990]

Also there is support for that play style Jungle items Smite No smite no dragons or baron

[@Sora-vw1bf]

Also, you cannot afford to have one hero jungling due to lane vulnerability of a hero playing solo in a lane you can also get yourself yeeted/ganked while jungling.

[@azalaeel]

I remember spamming NP jungle in nonmeta patch for jungler, and you're right, even tho I'm the highest net worth, my offlaner is struggling and snowballing make enemy had more resources

[@ZenotoXOfficial]

I haven't played dota 2 in 6 fucking years, and EVERYTHING i loved about it is gone... No jungling, no solo offlane, no trilane, no stacking camps for the jungle, Ring of Aquila is a neutral item, what the hell :( Oh well, guess I'll find something else to be good at. Thank you for the guide!

[@RedGallardo]

Jungler is not a role, it's a character's capability, like escaper, tank or healer. It means the character may farm creeps easier. All core roles farm creeps midgame. It's silly to try and focus farming, ignoring everything else.

[@unnamedshadow1866]

They can definitely add more jungle camps to that map. I mean, its still not viable to jungle. But it would at least allow teams to go for really greedy pick ups, which would make it interesting.

[@scipio764]

Nah, at that point, it's gonna be a boring farm fest.

[@meow3343]

The moment they remove the iron is the moment we realize that icefrog didn't like junglers. In year 2017 I used to play jungle lc and buy early crystalis in 4mins mark. After that I can now hit ancient stack and gain more gold than lane heroes. But then they remove iron talon and buff lane creeps gold to make people stay at lane

[@anti-mate407]

this has earned sub from me, very good vid man

[@federicopalacios7439]

Jubgling wasn't gonna work out in the long run because of the way the game is designed. In LoL, jungle creeps are weak, they can be cleared fast so a jungler can help in lane as well. In Dota, jungle creeps are much stronger because they can be controlled by items or certain heroes and used to help. Not to mention you can pull and stack, so they need to be balanced with that in mind as well, they need to be able to clear a creep wave when pulled, and they can't give too much xp and gold because they can be stacked (6.88 was the stacking meta, and heroes good at clearing camps were super rich) as a consequence jungling early is not viable.

[@Fritz_GG]

subbed for good discussion, there should be dota university and this guy should be one of the professors

[@Rom3TV]

Super interesting for a league player, dota has so many interesting concepts

[@romus007]

theres still a lot of thing to learn even tho the person like me touched other moba game like league

[@janecowie3626]

about league's buffs (blue and red), blue is for mages and very strong early, red is for attackers/tanks and is stronger late

[@BB8enjoyer]

quite simply because if there was then there'd be nobody playing hard support role

[@adamhero459]

The reason is because the mechanics unique(or at least were at the time of this video) made it so the solo hero on a 1v2 was almost always at a huge disadvantage when it comes to denies and last hits that it ends up being very detrimental to the team if you have someone jungling. And this was made more apparent over time as lane creeps go,d and xp increased a bit and jungle creeps gold and xp decreased and abilities were changed making many past jungling heroes not early as good as they used to be. Also the last big patch recently made it so hero kills are much more beneficial so risking that solo hero in the 1v2 dying made it pretty much idiotic to have anyone to jungle unless they could clear a camp in a few seconds while the lane while the lane is not going to be affected much( like when your creeps are at the enemy tower, when you think a gan’ may come if you push out too much, etc…). Also over time supports became much more important in the late game and supports were usually heroes that couldn’t jungle that well of at all(at least early on when it matters for a jungle role) and could not really solo a lane well enough to not give the enemy carry a free or almost free lane and thus is near guaranteed loss unless the other team is at least as stupid as yours.

[@fkutw4tt3rtub3]

because volvo hates solo laning, there were times when offlane broodmother/phoenix could destroy easy lane 1v2/1v3 easily but they nerfed it to the oblivion, especially poor broodmother

[@NickNameGone]

I remember the dusa glove of haste first item, into midas, hitting ancient non stop from the start (only paying a bit of attention to make sure to stack erach minutes in the process)....hahaha

[@_-KR-_]

I was a jungle player in dota since all the way back in the warcraft days. For years I would get flamed and reported for having as much networth as the entire enemy team combined but am somehow not doing it right.. I was opinion that they just didnt understand. I would make excuses to jungle start, I was a master crafter in justifying it, but I cant anymore. I simply cannot justify jungling in this day and age, and I resent that. (now I just win as a hard offlaner and get flamed for somehow not doing it right despite having the most successful lane AND maintaining gank/global presence)

[@rodantegutierrez4027]

easy answer because the early your hero got online the more you would win the game. Because 1v2 in lane is like free lane in 2 heroes because they can get online because of their skill combo and you cant lane that obviosly so you will get a dead lane. also laning is good in early than jungling because its hard to kill neutral creeps in your low level.

[@mrsmile5405]

Im pro jungle btw.. learning since dota 1

[@Tien1million]

I miss the days where you can disappear for 6 minutes as Sanking, then pop back out with blink and lvl6 ult to surprise the enemy.

[@fltfathin]

still can, if your supp can stack correctly and enemy didn't sniff the stack

[@kull796]

Very insightful video and I agree completely, especially the part that 2v1+jungler lanes are not very efficient.. There were some rumours about they re-adding the jungler role, with the role filter added to the grid. Now that they expanded the map a 40%, could they perhaps be thinking of adding a 6th player in the future? I know this sounds crazy but think about it.. Pros already have a 6th player in the coach, map is larger, there could be one more role which does not take part in the laning and just ganks same as in LoL

[@Chevalier_knight]

They will never add a 6th player that addeds 2 stuns 2 ults possibly 2 silences it would completely break the game.

[@fajarn7052]

yes, I thought that too, 6 player might be good. It really felt too big when you are facing with rat heroes like NP, naga siren, and the like who pushed all lane easily and there are so many spot to farm its hard to put resources into ganking them...and mostly not succeed.

[@bird.of.hermes.4]

​@@Chevalier_knighthave played a couple of mods and the game wasn't broken as you think. In team fights punishment for off position and captilizing off the pick off was insane so people who are adapt tothat makes fewer mistakes and quicker to react to and counter potential pickoffs.

[@mahino420]

this is where league and dota split in their early days, both had terrible jungle in the early days, it was impossible to jungle in league during beta and first season but then riot kept buffing it to force the role, while in dota they kept nerfing it to make people not play the role

[@tygonmaster]

The simplest way to put it is dota is balanced around not having a jungler and League of Legends is balanced around having one. At least currently. Also the teleport thing is a bit...not fully accurate. In League of Legends, not a single jungler in the game takes teleport. Not a single one. And that's for a variety of reasons: in League of Legends you can only take two spells and barring taking the unsealed spellbook rune, you cannot change your summoner spells throughout the game. Jungles have to take smite as that is the defining summoner spell for jungling. It allows you to deny objectives from the enemy jungler. So you only have one other summoner spell you can take. Teleport shows visually where you are going in league and you would be much better served with a spell like flash or ghost for the added mobility in ganks. Teleport, as of a recent change can only be used on towers before 10 minutes. This makes it completely useless for getting the drop on an enemy. There's also the simple fact that junglers and honestly just most of the champs in the game in general do not need added mobility to get across the map very quickly in league. Mini junglers have mechanics that allow them to move through the jungle at very high speed, such as warwick's low hp move speed passive, can gapclose very quickly with a dive or pull ability such as jarvan, or can just straight up jump over or move through fucking walls such as kayn, fiddlesticks, etc. So yeah no junglers in League of Legends take teleport. They don't need it as most junglers can full clear their jungle before 3 minutes into the game to gamk the complete opposite side of the map and they're actively hurting themselves when they take it. We has a lot of things but a lack of early game map pressure is definitely not one. Hell with how they've been balancing the jungle currently, you can easily expect ganks as early as pre 2 minutes into the game from some jungles that do level 2 ganks like nunu as well snowballs at you at like 800 movespeed. Its kind of disgusting how much mobility is in the game now and not for the better.

[@knkaitlog]

jungling works in herald where lanign stage ends only if one tower is pushed, so like 20 minutes lmao

[@ethandehoff3517]

I have no context having not played Dota 2, but can't the offlaner just pull his own creep waves to prevent the enemy safelane from freezing?

[@ZQuixotix]

They can try, but there are some challenges. The camp might be blocked by the hard support. Offlane would have to spend money to unblock, but the support might just body block as well. The pulls might be contested so that they never complete. If the offlane does pull, he will likely be zoned out. He does secure himself some last hits with this hopefully, but he's giving a hard camp to the carry, who might pull further ahead and then zone out the offlane even more. That's not too say it's always bad. In fact it's probably still good overall, but just needs some context to make the choice. A solo offlaner typically does want to disrupt normal laning, and a hard pull might be the way to do so

[@ethandehoff3517]

@@ZQuixotix Interesting. I was unaware that camp blocking is a mechanic and had to google that. By "zoned out" you mean the offlaner will be pushed out of collecting the gold and exp from the camp he used to pull?

[@ZQuixotix]

Yeah, the hard camp is positioned in a place where it's possible for both the safelane and the offlane team to contest. So if the support and carry move up to the camp, they can keep the solo offlaner away out of last hit range. He might be able to get some XP, but could be kept out of that range as well

[@ozmcsween]

Jingling isn’t a thing because it’s no longer really original dota mechanics any more, it has evolved into a a much more linear choice for hero choices and nerfing jungle also nerfs hard carry heroes because your support can’t triple stack camps at 1 minute any more, in essence it has removed a lot of the early game interacting like 0 minute runes and invading camps to block them with wards.

[@SonoranSage]

As a newer dota player this is a nice history lesson

[@carlhiltbrunner5858]

Ready to go Jungle Legion now!!!

[@davidsun9026]

Waiting for the return of jungle midas LC

[@FlyingShadow11]

because jungle creeps are too stronk early game

[@МихаилСилантьев-э2ю]

I know this video is quite old but one other reason for 2-1-2 meta as I understand it was addition of bounty runes which worth quite a lot. And you would rather have more people on the sidelanes to contest them and get 3 or even 4 if you're lucky/ahead.

[@jyashin]

I don't think that matters too much. Bounty runes spawned way before Dota 2 camps spawn, so it plays no role. Even if it spawned at the same time, that wouldn't be much different than when Scuttler was OP in League. It didn't affect things that much; fast clears was always what junglers cared about, and weak midlaners can just ward in river bush to let his jungler know which scuttler to go for. I think far more important is the fact that since League's creation, the jungler always starts at an instant lvl 2. Jungling in Dota 2 never did that - I think you needed 3 camps in order to hit level 2.

[@МихаилСилантьев-э2ю]

@@jyashinIn earlier days you could've hit lvl 2 from 2 camp in Dota I believe, but that is probably changed now. And I'm not talking about bounty runes at the beggining of the game. I'm talking about contesting them at 4-5 minute mark. But you're probably right in that it is a lesser factor for sure.

[@GameNinja13]

I remember back when it was a single offlaner vs two heroes, It was hell getting stomped on then people bitching at you to "Play safe"

[@eonarose]

As a league player, I kind of wish the roles were a bit more open minded like dota. The last time roles were different from how they are now was the first few years after leagues release.

[@tygonmaster]

Riot prioritizes a shitty stagnant pro play over average player enjoyment. Been this way since like season 3 sadly.

[@joelmiller6698]

Also another insight is i think in league jungler heroes are good at roaming but in dota its not the case look at bloodseeker venomancer naix etc

[@maksimhastrdlo3882]

Great video! So overall do you think jungling is viable in pubs? Or is it just straight griefing

[@TheGlenn8]

Even if it wasn't grieving you'd probably get grieved by your offlaner either intentionally or unintentionally.

[@killdhero]

Its straight griefing

[@ZQuixotix]

I would not recommend jungling in pub games unless you are in a party game with your offlaner at least. I think it's too hard to coordinate a good laning phase between the offlaner, but also farm distribution for the rest of the game. It's not uncommon for the mid/carry to want stacks before 10 minutes, so I don't think you could have another jungling position right now.

[@DarthAssViolater]

I played as support and my offlane lc went to jungle at like 4 mins. Leaving me, a lvl 2 over Magi to lane against a level 4 AM......

[@maksimhastrdlo3882]

So is it viable play core hero farming jungle creeps by always pulling? This way you contribute to lane and you get farm.

[@Anonlyso]

For one thing, lane creeps spawn every half minute while jungle camps spawn on the dot, and many times after doing one pull you generally have already created lane equilibrium. Another is that while you "are" getting some extra gold out of it, pull camps are not nearly enough to build up any core item quickly and timely (helps supports a lot tho since that's ward money baby). And this also assumes that while you're as both simultaneously over pushing the lane then equilizing it with a pull without accidentally over-pulling behind tower, the enemy will just let you, either by just running in and ruining your day or out right blocking your camp with a ward or such.

[@ZQuixotix]

Pulling has a strong effect on lane equilibrium. I would say it's easier for the 4 support to plan to constantly pull rather than the 5 support. But it would depend on what heroes are in the game too. I don't think pulling alone is enough gold for a new core. The way the jungle works right now, I think it's best to have 2 support roles. At best, you can have someone like Mirana, Chen, or Enchantress who can quickly kill off enemy jungle creeps while still playing a normal game

[@Chevalier_knight]

I used to play jungler as blood seeker back in 2014 i stopped playing in 2015 and only just started playing again and my role was just gone.

[@Youmu_Konpaku_]

Amazing look back on history

[@hentype]

Jungling is integrated in league just as Guinsoo envisioned WCDota in the past but couldn't fully integrate. DotA 2 didn't develop the meta to have a designated exclusive jungler role. It never was meant to be. League designed the meta to make junglers either invade or gank with the timer-based spawn and almost equal exp gains to a single offlaner or the jungler will waste time doing nothing.

[@Tiltigo]

I'm curious what makes jungling so viable in HoN compared to Dota 2 since they are way more similar games.

[@catalinanambong3777]

Jungle creeps and gold efficiency

[@MultiNakir]

i used to play another moba which had this role and after switching so i could play with my not so flexible humans, not seing it in dota2 made me question things, but i guess each moba work in it's own way and it is what it is

[@scotthuffman3462]

You absolutely CAN jungle in Dota, it just works differntly. You don't start the game in the jungle because almost the entire roster (with a few special exceptions) cannot get enough xp/gold from the jungle at level one. However, that quickly changes after just 1-2 levels helping your offlaner out however you can at the start of the game.

[@imfinishedgrinding638]

Generally Jungling was just optional in Dota years ago. It was league that popularized the jungler role which is why almost every Moba out there try to mimic League including the jungler role. Personally I do not like the role in Dota. I still don't play it when I play a League like games but I certainly do not hate that it's a must-have role there.

[@fltfathin]

@@imfinishedgrinding638 and league and league-derivatives incentivize jungling with the buffs, in dota you sorta be able to be "jungler" but at later stage when towers are thin and spaces made left and right

[@meeu]

because it's inefficient these days. lesser gold and exp than when you lane plus the fact that you're basically sacrificing a lane, especially against aggressive supports. There are no dedicated jungling items too.

[@tenmakudo137]

Miss those days of having 1 courier and everyone fighting for it

[@TsogtooML]

In my opinion, all towers except for highground (lvl-3) should be removed and the map should be made more bigger than current, adding more jungle, and improving early farmability. Also, the possibilities of teleporting should be reduced (must be 300sec+ CD for more possibility to segway push e.t.c, because you can't advance much when you have long teleport CD). Actually a technique to move far in a short time is most op thing. In this way, most heroes will be able to farm, and there will be no need to must follow the lane on early game. The bigger the map, the more options you have, such as searching for enemy heroes or farming yourself and taking lanes. Or you can push directly to the enemy's base. If needed adding sixth player for that will be good. Isnt it sounds like dota 3? Hopefully this will open up a wide variety of potential strategies and feeling fresh again adventury and mysterious.

[@trunkbitz9168]

My man, you are so articulate. I would like to know what is your career IRL? 😀

[@Ghhamster123]

I like having a jungler on team from level one because when I offline I get huge

[@veetheatheist]

I really like your videos. You're heaven sent. :)

[@ELMolliez]

There used to be a jungle role, then jungle gold, exp got nerfed, and the jungle became progressively harder to clear. The game evolved or adapted to that meta and jungle was replaced with roamer

[@ZkeMoNe]

No jungler, no roamer, no solo offlane/hardlane, no trilane, no dual mid (tiny/io) and so on. The game changed so much that it lost it's flexibility in many aspects and Notail's "everything can work" is no longer true. Games are one-sided for most of the time and team that dominates the map early will most likely win, because they control more resources than ever (you can't even buy Tome of Knowledge).

[@federicopalacios7439]

Literally none of those changes are bad. Trilanes were awful, maybe you only watch dota that's why you enjoy that, but games are meant to be fun, and being miserable against three people bullying you out of lane is not fun. Dedicated roamers are pointless when supports can rotate constantly, duo mids is a one-meta gimmick that only worked because Tiny was too weak to lane by himself. Jungle was almost always a grieving tactic, and even if it was still possible it wouldn't be viable because one of your lanes would just lose, players are much better at punishing nowadays. And how are people winning their lanes winning the games bad? First of all that's not even true, because even in comp dota we have seen a ton of comebacks recently. But even then, that's how it is supposed to work, if you build an advantage, and you know how to keep it, you're meant to win, how is that bad?

[@TheInfectous]

@@federicopalacios7439 You don't have to play every role, believe it or not some people really enjoy having extremely stringent requirements with abstract rewards, they enjoy having to play very defensive, enjoy having to make plays to have an impact. It wasn't that people who won their lanes lost way back, it was that winning a lane was far more foggy. Who won a lane between an offlaner who only died twice and got a good bit vs an antimage with freefarm, well it depends. Between trilanes, dual lanes in any lane, rotations, jungling, aggro trilanes, solo carries, jungle utilization, map control, push strats, with all the variation it made it very complex to definitively say who got more out of the map and moreso who got more on which heroes and how important is that farm. For example you could be running a 2k gold lead and be behind because the enemy team just had more gold on the right heroes. To be honest, I think the game was more rewarding to teams who won early way back simply because there was far less comeback mechanics and far less heroes, it was just harder to definitively say who was winning if that makes sense. Comparing the game now to TI2/3/4, I see a lot more compositions capable of comebacks purely because of their synergy whereas in the past, well, if you built a teamfight team that didn't get farm, it didn't really matter if you got a 5 man black hole, you wouldn't be able to kill anyone if you had no farm.

[@saandesh32]

enigma can't deny anymore

[@stevenkurniawan6521]

Jungle doom, iron talon Midas,Dagger,shiva,aghs Solo kill any carry (if the lane can hold on)

[@ensiel4738]

Changes in skills and items, less gold and exp, map got so much bigger. IMO they should just remove the extra camps at the edges of the maps, remove neutral items and just make the game simpler. Just way too much stuff diluting the game now

[@josetamad]

Great video

[@piyushbasutkar8270]

1 minute the 3rd creep wave has entered the lane, not 2nd

[@chocho5885]

Please enable captions

[@TheGreenHon]

Is it any different now that the neutrals scale? They outscale creepwaves at some point in the game (towards the midgame I believe)

[@RandoMattz]

i remember my first ever game back in 2013 and my friend made me play Lifestealer jungle :)

[@kntfhvn]

Jungling before was to gain an experience and gold advantage as a team. Jungling today is simply griefing your team.

[@salad3955]

I remember picking naga siren and being in the jungle the whole game and when i have my items id come out and help fights and destroy. then i came out of herald and enemy started blocking camps and smoking to kill me and saw jungling is ass

[@Mr_Fr34ky]

Every other Moba jungle creep: ☠️ Pls don't kill is bro 😭😭😭 Dota jungle creep: 🗿🍷 I'm gonna stun your ass if you touch Jimmy.

[@vulpritprooze]

damn instead of studying, why do i find this more interesting...

[@AA-md8gv]

did u remember u can kill roshan without touching it at lev 1 as a necromancer? or killing ancient creep as NP at lev 1 ?

[@Slenderzz]

quite intesting, bc in lol jungle is forced and constantly beeing buffed and changed so it stays good / relevant

[@federicopalacios7439]

Jungle in Dota is good, just not for jungling. You use it as part of your farming patterns once the laning stage is over. And during laning you can pull/stack it to gain advantages/control the lane equilibrium.

[@Sherudons]

Old jungling could work because creeps spawned at game start, creeps were worth more and had better xp, we also had PMS.. never forget. You jungle now, you will start late, and make the offlane much harder and later make a farming carry poorer by taking their farm for yourself, much like a tinker player.

[@1who4me]

Ah this makes me miss the jungler days

[@MrCacheclash]

ZQuixotix Your subtitles are by default vietnamese while u speak english,can you fix that?

[@ZQuixotix]

Weird I have no idea how that happened for just this video. I think it should be fixed now, thanks for letting me know!

[@MrCacheclash]

@@ZQuixotix Now subtitles are unavailable at all 🤦‍♂

[@JosePerez-ug9hy]

Can you do a video about trilanes?

[@OK-gi2gz]

Yes please so that my pos 4 pudge can stop sapping exp from my pos 1 carry

[@ZQuixotix]

To be honest, I'm not as confident in my understanding of why Trilanes stopped being common. I think it became less important for the hard carry to have a good time, so teams were able to dedicate less heroes to winning that lane. I'm not sure on the exact timeline of when trilaning dropped off to compare to mechanic changes

[@Kayledon777]

Just seeing this video. What about whatever happened to the 3/1/1 meta? Trilanes were a common thing and that died too

[@federicopalacios7439]

Good thing they died. Playing offlaner was the most miserable thing in existence.

[@bigchungus7050]

I really miss the iron talon days

[@vltraviolence7640]

RIP Iron Talon LC jungle free mmr

[@Mexican00b]

stopped playing YEARS ago... no jungle? wat?

[@federicopalacios7439]

Decades ago then. Jungling has been dead in Dota since like 2014/15 at most. Jungling, not the jungle, the jungle is still there and it's much bigger now.