Why Muay Thai and Kickboxing Fails in the West

[@jabawockeey]

The sports of Muay Thai and Kickboxing seems more of a "Meritocracy" to me. As in the better, more qualified fighters are given exposure due to their skill without the need of a character to "sell" a fight. Where as the lead up, the story, and the characters involved in a fight are just as important as the fight itself in western culture. It's embroiled in us to love a good narrative. The cultural diff between how Martial Arts is viewed in Eastern cultures vs Western are absolute polar opposites.

[@kman9884]

Ufc is just a personality grift.

[@cliptomaniac2562]

Absolutely. Chael Sonnen is a perfect example. The East needs a bad guy

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

A couple of months ago I watched Hands of Stone (2016) and then Bleed For This, knowing that Roberto Duran's and Vinny Paz's stories crossed paths is really one of those "reality has better writers than fiction" moments. Also the Dom Cruz vs Urijah Faber/Team Alpha Male feud, which they later admitted to have been played up as it spanned a decade and they weren't even mad anymore.

[@TheCristianalvarez]

@DireGoth03 there is something wrong with only using charisma to get anywhere. It rewards your ability to talk rather than your ability to fight. It's why excellent fighters like leon need 10 fight win streaks to get title shots and people like omalley who while he is a great fighter, got fast tracked to the belt. Or worse, someone like colby covington getting a title shot when he has 0 wins over the current top 15. It makes a joke of the sport. It becomes the WWE but with real fights. Which is a gross circus.

[@cliptomaniac2562]

@@TheCristianalvarez you got it all wrong. It’s charisma/personality plus ability is the name of the game.

[@JCVV22]

One championship changed all of that for me. Now i look forward to all the muay thai and kickboxing fights, might be the most entertaining combat sport ever.

[@grunt12394]

One Championship kicks the shit out of UFC.

[@henzoko5946]

@@grunt12394Hands down a better product. Way more exciting fights. Every card has a 80% finishing rate

[@WARRIOR-uf8ov]

Facts,onefc"s striking is so medieval and ruthless,your always going to get high level striking wars in one fc

[@silvafangtv]

I felt the same but the recent Superlek and Rodtang fight left a taste in my mouth that I dont think I will ever get rid of. Seems to me the Thai Champs dont want to fight fellow Thai, they keep calling out Haggerty even tho he is not in their division anymore, Superlek missing weight by 5 pounds such a disgrace, we were robbed of a banger fight.

[@JameyJoeshuaOfficial]

based take

[@traumaticroids7929]

ONE championship is more than happy for the UFC to not care for muai thay and KickBoxing

[@LouKiss]

Exactly. It’s getting more students into Muay Thai schools as well. It can only get bigger from here.

[@rogeta9716]

No it’s not🤦🏽‍♂️🤦🏽‍♂️

[@Mana-xd2tp]

​@@rogeta9716It is 💀

[@jethrohou2451]

Doesn’t matter. ONE championship is still asian 😹

[@TheFightQueen]

I feel like the term “Westerners” that is used in this video should be replaced with the term “Americans” instead. Over here in the U.K. and Europe kickboxing is a huge sport and Muay Thai is finding its place in the U.K. now as well with One FC coming to Amazon Prime. Also I’ve only ever known Americans to struggle with pronouncing foreign names and finding them funny. Most people in Europe and the U.K. are used to names like Rodtang and certainly don’t discount the skills of said fighters just because of their names. Great video and very well put together but it’s largely done from an American viewpoint and not a “Western” one.

[@teunvandalen7529]

Yeah agreed. Muay thai is huge in UK and dutch kickboxing is obviously very popular in the Netherlands

[@whoisnw]

100%

[@dukeflyingcow]

agree 100 percent.

[@kdaley7_]

@@teunvandalen7529cmon Muay Thai shows don’t sell for shit here in the UK, although a lot of people partake in training. I can’t speak on the rest of Europe though.

[@teunvandalen7529]

yeah fair enough@@kdaley7_

[@80srocknroller]

GLORY Kickboxing needs to be great in the USA like in Japan and other countries

[@FLOYD-MAYWEATHER-TBE]

I think that glory has the wrong look, the style of the promotion has always looked very plain

[@DADRB0B55]

Nah Glory big problem is they have no American kickboxers in general, go out of their way to get fighters from any other country.

[@80srocknroller]

@@FLOYD-MAYWEATHER-TBE They did have TV contracts with Spike TV (now known as Paramount Network) and ESPN

[@Cootjeeee]

Their marketing is just absolutely horrible

[@cliptomaniac2562]

GLORY needs a Mike Tyson type.

[@ivanrpribeiro5725]

Another possible factor might be fighter records. As a spectator, it’s pretty easy to identify a prospect in boxing or MMA, you simply look for that 10-0 record or something like that. But kickboxers, and specially thai, are VERY active, some even fighting like every three weeks or so. When they make it to bigger shows, they already have crazy records like 135-17-6, which most casual fans have 0 clue on how to measure or compare. Boxing and MMA have that “undefeated” culture. Muay Thai and Kickboxing focus more on the bigger picture of a fighter’s career. And one can only appreciate that if enough time is invested on following the sport.

[@dendrien]

the problem with the so called undefeated usually always mean it is rigged that way. UFC are more interested to invest in a character and persona rather than actual combat skills. even among he actual greatest UFC fighers theres very few of them who gets the big pay checks and attention simpy because they lack the persona or arent above 6feet

[@metalface_villain]

that undefeated thing is mostly padding, look at boxing, even their biggest boxer tyson fury got exposed by nganou and mofos used to be on fury's dick saying he could compete with the old heavyweights and that he might be one of the goats xD meanwhile the dude just beat wilder who himself has the most padded record ever.

[@dukey03]

ONE Championship had their first North American show not too long ago and they did really well. Here’s hoping they keep it coming

[@IceCubE4425]

Did very well. And competition in most markets the consumer wins all the time because they're trying to out do each other for the customers money.

[@TamamFlop]

One has matches in like 5 different martial arts though

[@bamtamu]

The reason why Dana won't promote and build a kickboxing league is because it would dilute the talent pool for their primary product.

[@superjnovaannularaurora9065]

businesses must learn and don't be Kodak.

[@ColdDream224]

That's an excellent point. Dana made a smart business decision then.

[@Satchamo_Jones]

It is strange, There's a large amount of MMA fans that seem like they can't stand grappling. You'd think Muay Thai or Kick Boxing would be a good alternative for those fans.

[@eblue3403]

It is but Dana doesn’t want it to compete with the ufc

[@BonVoyage861]

​@@eblue3403Why didn't it get huge just from Thailand? Muay Thai (the style) is huge. Tourists flock to Thailand in large numbers. Why didn't the sport grow? Corruption and nationalism.

[@bingbong2257]

it would be. It would be huge. No one knows about it that's the problem.

[@ranfan1820]

Those fans are dumb enough to attach themselves to the MIXED martial arts scene but hate grappling. Cant expect them to do the smart thing and just watch muay thai and kickboxing.

[@pinheadlarry4367]

Yeah I mean, that is exactly what the guy in the video said man

[@poyu4_you493]

One Champion is doing everything right in combat sports. Chatri is actually looks out for their fighters given he knows exactly first hand experience the journey a fighter goes through coming up at one of the most legendary Muay Thai gyms. Everyone needs to adopt his weight cutting/hydration route. People are really missing out if you’re just sticking to UFC. Sometimes it s a beauty to have two of the greatest fighters going at it without some ridiculous promotional “beef” narrative.

[@FranciscoMartinez-369]

Haven't really watched One FC. How does it compare to the UFC? Are the fighters as good?

[@poyu4_you493]

@@FranciscoMartinez-369 I personally have been an UFC fan for 10+ years but always hated the politics and promotional aspect of it. One Champion focuses more on the best prospects fighting each other rather than these drawn out dramatic storylines. Look at the way Dana disrespected Mighty Mouse and he is now loving his life now that hes in One. And this dude had 16 title defenses in the UFC and this dude got KO for the first time in a One match. They have an amazing hydration approach to weight cutting AND they do multiple sports (MMA, Kick Boxing, Muay Thai, grappling and submissions). So you get much more versatility. I personally lean towards Muay Thai now as a fan. OH they also setup special rules fights to get the best fighters in the world to fight each other. They had Rodtang (best Muay Thai KO mini Mike Tyson) vs Mighty Mouse with rounds 1 and 3 being Muay Thai and rounds 2 and 4 being MMA. Sorry for the essay but I truly love OneChampion.

[@CBraximus]

I've watched One maybe 3 times and every single fight has been Bonar vs Griffin quality or higher. They are better fighters. Dana doesn't have the spine to put his fighters against one fc. They'd put him out of business. I'm speaking from 30 years exp. Not an armchair fan.

[@marioiglesias4850]

@@FranciscoMartinez-369 best strikers in the world by far, no doubt about it. Hardcore UFC fan right here for more than 15 years and Im turning to ONE FC lately to be honest, watching ONE you realize what world class striking is, check out Superlek, Tawanchai or Haggerty.

[@koraegi]

​@@FranciscoMartinez-369one fc is fire I watch it for kickboxing and muay thai

[@sonang7721]

South East Asian here. As a boxing fan I think boxing got the popularity over kickboxing or Muay Thai not just from the long history, popular big guys or the heated rivalries. It's the fact that boxing technique just looks better in ring compares to Kickbox or Muay Thai even though we all know yes, those evasive movement skills are basically useless once you introduce kicking into the gameplan. Just my two cents.

[@ハーフ-r1m]

Maybe that but also kickboxing matches are typically a lot shorter than a boxing match, and also there are lots of stops in between whenever someone hits the ground because of a trip or slip or something. In boxing there are pauses too, especially when fighters are locked in a clinch but I don't feel like it's as major as kickboxing.

[@notpaper-cr6ni]

The truth is that these evasive movements do work even with kicks however you need to be careful as licks introduce a different type of threat. All that to say you’re correct but head movement is effective in any fight as hitting and not getting hit will win you the fight.

[@sonang7721]

@@ハーフ-r1m Shorter match length is never really a con in my eyes. Kinda wish all boxing match should only be 8 rounds tbh.

[@mike04574]

Ye a good punch can give you head trauma and brain damage compared to a kick

[@bluepin3005]

​@@ハーフ-r1m The shorter time also forces kickboxers to go at a faster pace, which balances that out. Tbh I find kickboxing more entertaining than boxing because the fights are only 9 minutes long, so guys will throw everything and empty the gas tank. You also see a lot more infighting and guys breaking up clinch on their own in kickboxing, whereas in boxing they'll accept clinches more often because they need to pace themselves for 12 rounds.

[@TheCristianalvarez]

People in muay thai and kickboxing dont duck each other. That's why i like it. And mma is becoming more like boxing with how rigged its getting.

[@Skelloter]

Faaccctttss

[@thirtythree504]

Whos ducking who in mma?

[@iampage2089]

First of all boxing is a business and it has always been like that since the 1920s look at the history and an MMA, no one is ducking no one it’s all controlled by one guy and a couple of his people who make fights happen. You need to learn the business before you sit down and say some shit like this.

[@TheCristianalvarez]

@@thirtythree504 colby ducked the entire welterweight division.

[@TheCristianalvarez]

@iampage2089 boxing is a joke tyson fury ducked usyk for ngannou. Charlo has been inactive for 2 years and hasn't been stripped, and robberies are too common. Boxing is a corrupt mess, and I say that as a fan who watches regional title matches. You day boxing is a business. No boxing is a sport first business second. You're thinking is the reason why it's such a mess. Have some standards.

[@therealsirdj5934]

so, I watched ONE Friday Fights for the first time this weekend, which was pretty Muay Thai heavy (idk if that's the normal ONE thing or just a coincendence) and... my god that was absolutely insane! As a person, who practiced Ju Jutsu for 15 years (and unfortunatly hasn't a long time due to some time problems in our Dojo) I love the fact that Muay Thai still got the foundation of Martial Arts, respect for the opponent, so present. Because Boxing and MMA clearly lost that somewhere on the way to becoming more of an "entertainment" based product... It remeinds me a bit of Pro Wrestling, but with real fighting.

[@WatThaDeuce]

Friday Fights is, usually, mostly MT. Their bigger events, though, have a higher ratio of MMA and even some straight up submission grappling bouts.

[@therealsirdj5934]

@@WatThaDeuce nice. Sound like I will enjoy Friday Fights then. Thanks for clearifying that. Apriciated

[@lorinwatson1205]

I grew up in a small town in southern Idaho and I have the utmost respect for all southeast Asian fighters. I grew up watching every martial arts movie I could get my eyes on. I became obsessed with Muay Thai kickboxing, Selat, Lethwei, and Filipino Kali stick fighting. I love it when I bring up fighters like Rodtang, Saenchai, Buakaw, Tawanchai, Petchpanomrung, Lerdsila, or actors like Tony Jaa and the movies Ong-bak, Li Lian Ji and wushu(Jet Li, another westernization of a name), most people around here look at me like I may as well be speaking Tagalog. I don't care much for the disrespect that has become engrained in our society, especially in the cities (which is why I live in a rural area in one of the least populated states in America.) Anyone willing to step into those cages/rings, in front of thousands to millions of people, and get their face punched in for a living has earned every ounce of my respect. I only fought when I had to when I was younger and only train now to protect myself and my children. We could all take a page out of these fighters' books and learn a thing or two about respect, discipline, dedication, humility and good sportsmanship.

[@iPhonePhotoDude]

Great video. I'm writing this from Phuket, Thailand right now and I can tell everyone reading this that the Muay Thai gyms here are packed full, from morning to early evening, with Thais, Westerners, and other Asian nationalities that come to train and get it shape. Pro fighters train here too but for many, it's just a fitness holiday which means Muay Thai is slowly being exported around the world. I think the fan base will continue to grow until Dana sees a real opportunity ... someday. Compared to "Slap", which I'm not interested in myself, Muay Thai is way more fun to follow.

[@jameslkiii]

For America, Karate Kid had a huge cultural impact. Karate and TKD are the frame of reference for what kick boxing should look like to most Americans. American Kick boxers like Rick Roufus brought their Karate style to Muay Thai and got leg kicked to death. Low kicks are effective sure, but not as flashy/entertaining as a spinning back kick. Movies like Ong Bak have helped some with exposure, but didn't have a huge cultural impact. Karate's belts and culture have ingrained themselves in the U.S. BJJ with it's similar use of belt systems and Gis helped it to slot in to that dojo framework set by Karate. And the Gracie family expertly created the UFC and its match-ups to market their style of Jiu-Jitsu. Instead of learning kickboxing in a Muay Thai gym people are learning in Karate dojos. Though many are incorporating Muay Thai into "kick boxing classes", you don't see many Muay Thai only gyms yet. And Muay Thai for kids may be a harder sell than Karate to the suburban Soccer mom. It's often black belts who will move on to studying Muay Thai later in life.

[@The_Eagle_Official]

nobody wants to watch 5 foot midgеts. nuff said

[@himanshumann1904]

​@@The_Eagle_Officialno one wants to see dagestani gays hug each other either.

[@The_Eagle_Official]

@@himanshumann1904 - manlеt

[@maxfrazao4988]

​​@@himanshumann1904and nobody wants to see bizarre giants boxing thinking they know how to properly fight.

[@cassidydeano5554]

@@The_Eagle_Official but if it's popular in the USA it won't be short people (for the most part)

[@LuckyLoek15]

I am very glad you mentioned the interest of kickboxing in the Netherlands

[@rockymontenegro3154]

I do remember Bellator trying to push kickboxing in their events. They even said they want to try to make kickboxing bigger

[@SpencerTheBard]

I think what would drive more people to Muay Thai and kickboxing is more awareness of the fighters. On KZbin, there's hundreds of videos posted daily talking about the UFC but very few creators talk about Muay Thai and kickboxers or even One Championship fighters as a whole. If people know the fighters, they'll begin to tune in more. I think it's started to get better through mighty mouse and Rodtang but there's so many more fighters that the casual viewer has no idea they even exist

[@eblue3403]

I think the biggest problem is that it could compete with the ufc and Dana doesn’t want to have competition

[@HelloItsme-qv3mg]

Exactly my views are same we don't talk about them as much as we do about UFC or boxing

[@LanMandragon1720]

We don't talk about them because they aren't popular,you have your reasons backwards

[@chimeramon2765]

I don't think your argument really holds all that weight because there's a lot of Americans that know these Muay Thai fighters and kickboxers especially some of the legends. Kickboxing especially should have been more popular than MMA because Americans always been aware of kickboxing well before the concept of MMA and bjj. WWE may have played a tiny part because that's when I was introduced to Ken Shamrock and then Brock Lesnar came along. Van Damme film kickboxer further reinforced the awareness of kickboxing. I think kickboxing in America just became a huge anonymity because I personally think the guys that promoted boxing and had a lot of pull in boxing community must have done everything in their power dissuade kickboxing out of our country so it wouldn't be a rival, but I don't think the same thing applied to MMA because the boxing personnel probably looked at it as a gimmick and never figured that it would have legs to even be a small player In the US fight scene. I don't even get it seems like when your fc was starting to form in AUS and pride was still around it was like an explosion in the early 2000s in America when it came down to grappling in jujitsu and somehow it just replaces what kickboxing should have been in America. I didn't know the term mma in the Late 90s and until I got out of high school in the early 2000s. I didn't know fighters, but I always knew about kickboxers and grew up watching kickboxer Themed movies I hardly knew anything about MMA in2003 but in 2004s I was watching and don't even understand when I began. My only guess is that there was more exposure in hype in the early 2000s revolving around MMA where kickboxing just wasn't getting that I believe if I was more aware of fights going on it may have got to me soon enough. Even now I've peeked and looked at kickboxing, but I can't remember the last time I specifically watched it but then again at this point I don't actually watch any fights I see highlights more than I see full fights. The best analogy that I can come up with is that boxing was roller skates and kickboxing it's rollerblades. Rollerblades should have still been popular, but they faded out quick people skateboard and do everything else before even thinking about rollerblading. It's less embarrassing to go outside right now in a pair of roller skates than roller blades.

[@MajinVegeto89]

I think your point number 4 is one of the major points. Lots of UFC fans are really just fans of drama, of hate matches, of people name calling etc. People in the west are obsessed with this childish and pathetic drama. Just look at the whole rise of KZbin/celebrity boxing matches, so called "fighters" who aren't even skilled and yet millions watch their fights, just because of all the underlying drama and beef. Those unskilled youtuber-fighters make way more money than many legit world class fighters, it's sad but that's the truth. In muay thai, you never see childish shit like that. Fighters respect each other, a fighter who acts like a clown and disrespects other fighters would get shunned by the muay thai community. The thai culture doesn't respect such behavior.

[@doom5895]

The more i learn about american culture the more i hate it

[@thejoojoo9999]

I'm not sure it's the West in general, feels more like a specificity of American culture. In Europe Kickboxing and MT are more popular than in the US, and I have the impression that big mouths and trash-talkers are more frowned upon.

[@darkenedpp]

​@@thejoojoo9999 Then why was Connor McGregor so beloved in the West back in his prime? It's really mostly the west man.

[@thejoojoo9999]

@@darkenedpp If you read my comment carefully, I'm saying that even more specifically than the west, I believe it's a *American* cultural thing to appreciate big mouths and braggers. America is part of the west of course but the west isn't only america. Europe is the west too, but it feels like big mouths are less appreciated over here

[@darkenedpp]

@@thejoojoo9999 Oh, I apologize then. My reading comprehension left my brain for that comment. My b, have a good day.

[@andreasjans]

Glory is very large in the Netherlands and France exculively in the West

[@renishalilaj1168]

I think the WWE also helped with people really gravitating towards big personas in combat sports. A lot of the younger generation grew up on watching WWE too, and they really liked watching the over the top showboating and personalities that were there. This is why they now prefer big personalities and they like to watch trash talkers.

[@bleeem]

That just shows that americans dont watch the sport they watch the event, i want to watch good fighters because i love the sport itself, i dont give a fuck about the persona because it only exists outside 99% of the time.

[@o0...957]

I really didn't like WWE. Too much acting.

[@jethrohou2451]

@@bleeem Good. Cry about it bozo

[@tbadj649]

Muay Thai is my favorite sport, as of last year. The amount of training, discipline, and respect that the fighters have cannot be matched in any other sport. It's pretty brutal too, elbows, knees, trips, tosses, grappling, getting struck while you're falling to the matt is legal etc..

[@TrendyTryhard]

Even casuals love takedowns and sweeps. It adds a lot to the sport, opens up the striking more, and keeps things varied. People just don't like lay and pray or stalemates on the ground.

[@AlexiusRedwood]

Exactly. And in kickboxing/boxing/ muay thai they hug more than in MMA . Punch punch kick clinch separate repeat. The beauty of MMA is that when you make a mistake on the feet you can be taken down . And I love clean takedowns and submissions . And it makes every fight interesting you never know what is going happen .

[@kman9884]

If that were true Belal would be the most popular fighter

[@MM-qt5bi]

@@kman9884💀💀💀😭😭😭

[@iampage2089]

Fax you said it exactly 100% correctly my guy

[@AlexiusRedwood]

@@kman9884 if belal submitted his opponents or ground and pounded them People would love him. But he just holds people down and can't finish a one arm opponent.

[@ianyapxw]

The "funny names" reason is actually incredibly huge. It is a media spectacle after all and your name becomes your 'personal brand'. Katy Perry, John Legend, Travis Scott, Elton John, etc... all have different stage names to their birth name because it's much better branding. It's actually quite common knowledge in film/media to change your name early if you want a good career. Source: industry insider.

[@Jaburu]

what consists a good stage name, other than beeing unique?

[@ianyapxw]

​@@Jaburu I don't actually know, but it must 'sound' nice. For eg "Katheryn Hudson" vs "Katy Perry". There are people who do that as part of their full time job (eg PR consultants and A&R) and people that have some idea because they are part of the industry (eg lawyers, producers). Once you start going down this rabbit hole you'll actually realise there's measures of magnitude between PR consultants that make 2mil vs 200k a year and all that difference is subconscious to the public. Bonus points if your parents set you up for a celebrity career by choosing a good stage name for you at birth eg Will Smith.

[@forlua9211]

It sounds like the guy who wrote this message lives in a very tiny world. 😂 When you find names in other languages funny this means you have never been exposed to the outside world.

[@Jaburu]

@@ianyapxw Will Smith doesn't seam to be a good name lol. Also he started his career as Fresh Prince

[@ianyapxw]

@@Jaburu I meant his kids names.

[@adequatequality]

I think another big reason these 2 sports aren't more popular in the West is because we tend to simply compare every standalone martial art to MMA and often diminish that sport's importance and marketability. I'll often hear stuff like "Oh he's good at ____ but in MMA, he'd get torched" or something along those lines. If given the choice, viewers would much rather tune into the more entertaining and "complete" sport as opposed to changing their entire view on how the standalone combat sports like muay thai and kickboxing also deserve respect.

[@cliptomaniac2562]

That doesn’t explain why boxing is so popular. It’s arguably the most limited combat sport.

[@gi7685]

I mean it gets the recognition just because its one of the oldest combat sports in the west.. thats where the popularity comes from..

[@adequatequality]

@@cliptomaniac2562 That goes back to the videos' argument about the allure of striking in combat sports. Boxing is 100% striking so when it comes to stuff that involves the legs, Muay Thai and Kickboxing falls under the MMA category in terms of comparisons.

[@JonPawesome]

@@cliptomaniac2562boxing is more popular bc of how seemingly simple it is. Easier for a casual viewer to think they understand what they’re seeing and follow along. The concept of MMA is better, but a casual viewer has to learn more upfront to appreciate watching it.

[@cliptomaniac2562]

@@JonPawesome but that means mma should be less popular because it’s more complicated with the different disciplines but it’s not. Storylines/trash talk is, imo, the most important part.

[@Domthgreat]

Loved this video but my only gripe is that Dana’s position isn’t that crazy to me. It’s kind of a conflict of interest He probably looks at it like “hey if you’re such a good kickboxer, clean up your grappling and join the UFC” I think it would take another promoter to do it but it’d be tough and just become a feeder league for the UFC given Dana’s aggressive-dictator like style

[@champ1159]

If you haven't watched MMA on Point's documentary on kickboxing and its effect on MMA, you should. Its amazing and i think it would be great if the UFC had a separate kickboxing promotion like Bellator. I mean, the UFC already has shares in Glory kickboxing and regularly scouted kickboxers who wanted to transition into MMA (Izzy, Gokhan Saki and Poatan)

[@Aaron-kj8dv]

I love this idea, like a feeder promotion or a minor league. One of the coolest storylines in MMA was Izzy and Pierera having a history before UFC.

[@jaketrovillion6159]

Now that K-1 is trying to make a resurgence in the West and ONE Championship, which also hosts kickboxing and muay thai fights alongside MMA, just had their first event in the States, I'm hoping that this will open the possibility of a new generation of Western kickboxing and muay thai fans.

[@jotaro_kujo488]

Adding to the hard names argument, just remember that Korean Zombie’s full name has hardly ever been mentioned in the UFC Similarly Khabib is just called/promoted by his first name because Nurmagomedov is hard to pronounce

[@xaevius5319]

nurmagomedov isn't hard to pronounce, the hell? khabib is easier to say because it just is. isn't that how it works when it comes to saying first name vs last name? which one's either easier or memorable? jesus christ. if nurmagomedov is really hard for some people then we're fucking doomed as a society.

[@forlua9211]

@@xaevius5319 Americans are very ignorant when it comes to things outside their US soil. Instead of pronouncing names in other languages correctly, they prefer to pronounce whatever they see fit. For many americans Thailand is the same as Taiwan, Wang (a common chinese last name) is pronounced as Wang (like Frank) instead of Wang (like Funk), Karaoke is not Kaa-raa-o-ke but ka-ri-o-kiiii. What do you expect?

[@xaevius5319]

@@forlua9211 as much as i hate how "westerners" say words of asian or even spanish/latin origin, i gotta give them a break for some of these words tho cuz its hard to put in the native pronunciation to the rhythm and flow of a typical english conversation. Its like trying to stop a car in the middle of a nice speed/pace just so u can say "i said it correctly". Some are just unforgiveable tho like queso? They say it like keiy-soh. They done fucked up an only two syllable word

[@jotaro_kujo488]

@@xaevius5319 kzbin.info/www/bejne/bHO9YXqAocl-rLs

[@kanucks9]

​@@forlua9211 look, the Chinese fucked up their anglicization big time. Sucks to suck, the letter a can make 3 sounds, but not the one that's intended...

[@Mrtamps]

Idk what to say, the video just came out

[@Jayy788]

Points for creativity…

[@Datboi-qq4de]

Me too

[@Ar1AnX1x]

I donno what opinion to have about this video since popular comments hasn't showed up to show me what others think so I can have an opinion

[@SiNsCere1100]

@@Ar1AnX1xthis.

[@LeoneWorlds]

I’ll put it like this, If Kickboxing was as big as MMA, a lot of people would do kickboxing instead and would’ve preferred it that way.

[@sigmachadtrillioniare6372]

Exactly, most of the “facts” here are fabricated. The numbers and attendees are clearly not real

[@Stick_Chronic]

​@nicholasgreen339but mma is massively growing

[@Rozza2k]

My mate was a number 2 ranked glory kickboxer and it was crazy to me that he was less famous than any ufc fighter inside the top 30 ranking. I understand the ufc is far bigger but you'd think kick boxing would have taken off by now

[@uncircumcisedcircus]

MMA training is way harder, more risk should equal more reward.

[@drag0..]

@@uncircumcisedcircusthey do train more disciplines, but they excel at none

[@folksurvival]

​@@drag0..False.

[@HelloItsme-qv3mg]

​@@uncircumcisedcircus ok but what about boxing 🥊😂 Kickboxing and muyithai is what more dengerous than boxing still Westerners love boxing 🥊 😂 which is funny 🤣

[@IceCubE4425]

@@folksurvival Very true unless its Sambo.

[@fennec812]

I’ve lived in Asia (and am American). Honestly all the shit talking and Twitter beefing and press conference showmanship is a massive turnoff in western fight promotions for me. It does nothing to endear me to the fighters, frankly. It just comes across as juvenile that grown ass humans who get to essentially play a sport for a living also can’t just act like professionals. I keep tabs on MMA and will watch highlights here and there, but the marketing model is super fatiguing, imo. I definitely prefer the Asian model. I think the rules tend to be a bit more geared towards action and the narrative *is* there if you look for it, it just isn’t plastered all over socials like a middle schooler throwing a viral hissy fit. As a martial artist myself, I have an appreciation for the craft of MMA. But the culture of it is a trite, petty, bad look, imho.

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

The talking and theatrics come out of pro wrestling. Fighting for money has always been considered a money making venture in the West. More attention means more tickets sold (and PPV buys) and thus more money for the fighter.

[@TearThatRedFlagDown]

Yeah, I hate this too. I'm Filipino but I grew up in the West, but I like Muay Thai's culture of respect between fighters a lot more and I think it makes them that much more badass.

[@Shneebly]

Rules are uncool. The American audience wants to watch a kickboxing event, but be told it is a "no holds barred" cagefight. Izzy vs. Pereira and Izzy vs. Sean COULD have been promoted as kickboxing events. However, promoting those matches as MMA just sounds cooler, even if it has zero impact on the fight.

[@sigmachadtrillioniare6372]

The mere threat of potential grappling scrambles changes game a lot

[@darragho6358]

I think you're underestimating the growth both these have seen with the prevalence of ONE in recent years. I'd point to what r/mma looked like during the rodtang fight recently as a prime example. While it hasn't permeated the casual market yet I feel like the hardcore fans nearly prefer ONE given the quality of UFC cards in recent times and how every ONE card is a banger

[@Jrock420blam]

Grew up in Japan and even there it was all about the HW fights. The Tyson fight or the Foreman fight was bigger than any local fights we had going on. Everyone wants to see HWs go

[@YoungPadawan85]

5:27 I can't stop laughing at that guy yelling "Who tf is Tingus Pingus!" 🤣

[@grunt12394]

More Americans need to compete that’s the problem, this is the sport I want to compete in, as an American I there is so much potential for growth if we showed interest.

[@giorgiociaravolol1998]

E allora vai fratè e spaccali

[@TheCristianalvarez]

good luck my guy, i want to be a kickboxer too. hope you become a world champ. canada has bazooka joe and Gabriel Varga you can be that too if you work hard.

[@sigmachadtrillioniare6372]

Nobody likes kickboxing

[@carson21211]

K-1 was great and very popular among the hardcore MMA fans in the 2000's and early 2010's. OneFC is doing great thing mixing up the styles and rule sets to make muay tai based kickboxing more appealing to a broader audience. Tai fighters all look the same physically, they all fight the same way. All super skilled, all super durable, so it lead to just high level sparring matches 90% of the time. Long story cut short....it is boring.

[@keion_arknights]

There's something about kickboxing that feels very different from mma tbh, and if someone can put their finger on it, it may be why mma appeals to what kickboxing can't. I think it's a combination of less ref intervention because clinching is allowed, following someone to the ground with a knockdown, or maybe size of the cage that makes it feel different, more raw, more of a fight. Been watching some recently kickboxing, and while it's certainly fun in it's own right, there just seems to be a lot less movement. You see more weight on the back foot and more stationary styles, less circling; it doesn't feel at all like mma striking. Edit: might be glove sizes that encourage a more defensive style.

[@ChucksSEADnDEAD]

I recently got to watch an event with K1 rules at the end and watching K1 live and close to the ring is extremely exciting. It's just so difficult to get that experience watching on a phone to catch up during a work break or on my free time, I end up doing time skips because of the pace caused by the knee+clinch+ref break.

[@Rotaks]

" I think it's a combination of less ref intervention because clinching is allowed, following someone to the ground with a knockdown" Yes! Bingo! That boring mt clinch, you have opponet in your arms but.... you can't use it and go to another level (wrestling, takedown etc.).

[@keion_arknights]

@Greymatter-to3th Yeah, grappling was definitely something I forgot to mention. There's a lot of glove to glove, guard to guard chess mindgames in kickboxing, stuff that is completely foreign to MMA, where you're in double legging range.

[@christophermorrison2626]

Takedowns/grappling changes striking a lot

[@maxwellsdemon10]

I feel like the stance, the range and the volume in kickboxing being different is also a big factor. MMA striking and K1 or Muay Thai striking look very different. I feel like since the distance is closer and the volume is higher, each kick or punch feels less impactful. Personally although I train a lot more K1 than MMA, I find the MMA fights more exciting, even though they are just standup fights.

[@ivanrpribeiro5725]

Dude, 100%. Also, you have to know the fighters to understand the nuances of their styles in kickboxing. Feels like striking personality shines through a lot more in MMA, even on guys coming from kb. Look at WB, Izzy or Poatan. They became way more distinct on MMA than they were on kb.

[@jose.g2753]

​@@ivanrpribeiro5725 that's only because of the subpar striking level in UFC/MMA They're miles ahead of everyone when it comes to that so they stand out more

[@christophermorrison2626]

@@jose.g2753it’s not supbar striking lmao it’s just different to kickboxing/ thai, if your gonna say that WB,izzy and pereira are only good at mma striking just because of their pure striking backgrounds that’s just ignorant because if you want to use that logic then that would mean that everyone that has beaten izzy,pereira in kickboxing would mean that they would match them in mma striking which just wouldn’t happen.

[@Stick_Chronic]

​@@jose.g2753it's not subpar striking the striking is adapted for mma

[@guidomista8448]

Maybe its because i do muay thai, but i believe one fc is making waves for kickboxing/muay thai in the west. Even grappling events are getting more exposure due to one fc. I think within 5 to 10 years it will surpass ufc.

[@blackmambo8702]

Hey man I just started doing Muay Thai/ kickboxing! You got any advice? It’s coming naturally so far

[@guidomista8448]

@@blackmambo8702 hip mobility plays a huge key. Always stretch before and after. It will change your life. Also don't get to hung up on shin conditioning, all you need to do to condition your shins is run and kick pads/heavy bags. The conditioning will come.

[@CountfilmsTV]

Well said! We film highlights of ONE FC fights as well as another big Thai promotion in Bangkok, Thailand. Asian fighters are really respectful, and the big reason aside from culutural ones, is that Martial Arts teaches these values. A lot of the Brazilian MMA fighter in the UFC follow these set of disciplines. In time the tide will probably shift where U.S. fans will tune into the east fighting promotions more. Europe is already on board. Loads of fights with ONE Championship in Europe this year, and a lot of Eurpean fighters. Once the U.S. joins it'll be everyone because Europe, Russia, Africa, South and Central America already watch kickboxing and Muay Thai at ONE. Great coverage!! The Russian fighters forced Americans to learn their names like Khabib, so honestly in time all these lines will most likely be blurred. A good fighter is a good fighter!

[@h2woah127]

I would much rather watch Muay Thai than kick boxing just because of the fact MT is basically kickboxing but then with knees and elbows added which is just straight up a better martial art and more entertaining

[@frederickmeadows8716]

I love Muay Thai I wish it was more practiced in the US

[@TearThatRedFlagDown]

I'm from the Netherlands, it was a real pain for me to find a proper Muay Thai gym. Some gyms are advertised on sites as a place where you can learn Muay Thai, but all it ends up being is just Dutch style kickboxing and sometimes they practice clinching. No shade on kickboxing, but this was very frustrating to me.

[@PrimalCulture]

One Championship is changing that. Their first event in the USA was a massive success

[@sigmachadtrillioniare6372]

Yet they pay thier fighters 1400 dollars a fight

[@PrimalCulture]

@@sigmachadtrillioniare6372 they were the ones looking to win a contract with One.

[@NotGyros]

Because MMA (UFC mainly) fans are big on the casual side, shit talk, promoting, personal sides of fighters etc. There's promotions such as Brave who have incredible talent but aren't even looked at by UFC fans, nor any other promotion really. The truth is fight fans outside of boxing are very ignorant, biased and just not open to watching anything but the UFC. One has better cards than UFC, yet only a fraction of the fans there know more than Rodtang

[@iampage2089]

Fax

[@folksurvival]

ONE has mostly little Asian fighters so people who aren't Asian don't care as much.

[@HipHopKitteh]

I am completely OK with Muay Thai and Kickboxing not making it big in the West. They're doing fine in the East. ONE Championship is steadily growing to be even bigger than UFC in the USA and it's going to be the market leader soon. If anything, UFC and Dana White should be the one asking these kinds of question in the next few years: "Why am I not making it big in the East as I did in the West?". But maybe they won't. They're comfortable with their grip in the West and that's completely fine. Not everything has to gravitate toward one center.

[@sternleiche]

The big business is ruining the fight sports no matter if UFC or ONE.

[@themagescorner]

Need a movie like Karate Kid with the moves in Ong Bak to sell to western audiences. Or someone like Jackie Chan but with muay thai skills to show up BIG in action movies.

[@tnastymma]

Muay thai/ kickboxing is having a resurgence with the rise of the IKF. Especially in the midwest with the Standup Fight Series rising in popularity and lots of mma promotions putting on kickboxing fights.

[@aureum7479]

How is the IKF having a massive resurgence ?

[@tnastymma]

@@aureum7479 huge growth in the PKB as well as the east/west coast classics. Johnny Davis specifically has been putting in a lot of work as of recent years bringing in new local promoters to host events and bringing awareness to kickboxing/muay thai. Also with hosting 9 round kickboxing fights which is very awesome to see

[@y_magaming9798]

The thing you also have to take into account is that kickboxing was also founded in japan. Just look at the k1 roster. Almost all of their japanese fighters are seidokaikan alumni. K1 literally put kickboxing and combat sports on the map. K1 walked so th3 ufc, strikeforce, rizin, and m1 could run.

[@Heylanda-fb9xb]

Blame Buakaw for that. 2000s K1 used to incorporate foreign fighter into their roster in order to promote it and become the world's most prestigious ring. But after Buakaw uses his Muay Thai technique and dominate 2004 and 2006 edition of K1, the number of foreign fighter decrease until almost none are seen anymore.

[@memysurname7521]

Boxing was a thing before kickboxing / k1, no?

[@kickboxer2149]

If he just went for it applied the same marketing to ufc kickboxing and did it in like 4-6 oz grappling gloves it would be super exciting . Ufc branding and marketing

[@NocturnalShogun]

I live in the "west" and my friends dont know shit about fighting, they really think tyson fury is the best boxer, they dont care (or dont know) about skill, they only care about trashtalk and drama like its a netflixshow... and this are guys which buy the payperview while i wait a month to see it for free on youtube 😂 none of them knew who rodtang, tawanchai, ilia topuria or naoya inoue are😂 but i love my friends because they make me laugh my ass of everytime we argue about fighting😂

[@seanwallace89]

MMA resembles a more natural form of fighting and allows for scenes of max aggression like a guy being ground and pounded or pinched unconscious while laying on his back on the floor. They also have less parity in competition... it takes away from the "punchers chsnce" that exist in mma. Guys can get lucky in Kickboxing and muay Thai but it's far more rare.

[@LennyComments]

I feel like some UFC fighters would love to also fight muay thai fights so maybe the UFC should just start introducing muay thai fights in their events with grappling gloves just like ONE.

[@manikkalore1630]

You really hit the nail in the head,as a casual UFC fan I really put off by wrestling and jujitsu. For me they make the match boring.

[@pedromartinazzo5036]

Sincerely I love Kickboxing and Muay Thai for the exact reasons you described it ain't popular in the west. Just two guys that respect each other deeply fighting. I don't really wanna hear shit talk that most of the times is either fake or extremely forced just to sell the fight. I much prefer the more chill respectfull nature of Kb and MT because it just feels more genuine, yes the guys are trying to kick each others head out but they mostly respect one another.

[@poeticjustice777]

but its funny how i find other martial arts boring after finding muay thai/kick boxing

[@vengarlof7033]

The ufc has actively diminished all attempts to make striking arts like Muay thai and kickboxing big in th west via the attempted monopolising of MMA promotions by buying them as they have tried to push them

[@AvenEngineer]

Overeem era K1 with Michael Schiavello and Bas Rutten on commentary was amazing. I remember watching on HDNet amazed it wasn't more popular then UFC became. Something to be said for good management, or the lack there of. Remy Bonjasky flying knees and kicks made such iconic photos.

[@PughMMA]

One thing about Thai names, is they don’t call each other by their names. Nicknames are a huge part of their culture, so they just use that instead. Even abbreviating titles is common; at my church instead of saying “Pastor,” they just say “P.”

[@arthurservilheri4311]

Me personally,what makes me want to watch mma instead of kickboxing is the ground and pound instead of the 10 count,just makes it more real

[@rockyhughescopywriter]

Muay Thai is huge in australia however arguably more people watching one championship over here than ufc

[@Intellechawwal]

I have a feeling that any sport based on mutual respect and love for the art wouldn't sell well for the US audience that only thinks with the left hemisphere of their brain. Things like trash talking or being intimidating or egotistical goes against Eastern fighting arts but that's how the western audience gets hooked to any fight.

[@RomaroBrandon]

I prefer Muay Thai over Kickboxing however I prefer MMA slightly more than Muay Thai because it's more physical.

[@BiggieTrismegistus]

Sometimes Muay Thai fights look like guys taking turns kicking each other.

[@Op_Intrude-N313]

The Tingus Pingus guy at 5:30 clearly has more than a few screws loose.

[@wolfhawk1999]

ONE is having more events in the USA next year. Their first USA card sold out. I think fight fans on average are becoming more intelligent about the sports they follow, and with ONE being free on KZbin and Prime (if you are subbed) the fan base is slowly growing in the West. The UFC and Boxing are also starting to look like circuses, so I think people find ONE a refreshing change

[@kennoonan8389]

Love the videos, keep up the great work!

[@Go4Broke247]

It's popular in the West, just not the USA.

[@avono5330]

8:42 i prefer this, it’s refreshing no egos just talent

[@notmyrealname1698]

It’s because we don’t have the respect and admiration for martial arts as individual sports we have respect for the best fighter in general. It’s the opposite for Motorsport in Europe and the rest of the world f1 is the biggest kind of racing but in the USA it’s split between the different disciplines like drag racing, nascar, drifting

[@fivehundrediq5212]

America has the size & the resources to support multiple kinds of racing, Most countries can only afford an F1 race so on the surface F1 looks “popular” but in reality it’s the only racing sport most countries can afford to run

[@christophermorrison2626]

In my opinion the majority standup fights in mma are more enjoyable than Muay Thai/K1, this is ofcourse due to the addition of takedowns and grappling and a more prolonged clinch which changes everything compare to pure striking, the biggest difference is the distance which intern means there are far more different striking styles in mma compared to Muay Thai. For example wonderboys striking is very different to Dustin poriers and pereiras style is different to so fourth etc, not saying there aren’t different styles in Thai/k1 but due to the striking distance being longer in mma there are a lot more striking styles which imo makes striking in mma funner to watch.

[@Ragin.Official]

Also undocumented embellished records in Muay Thai and Kickboxing is sort of a turnoff. In boxing and MMA you can do a simple search of a fighter and see the list of every person they fought, what day they fought, what event they fought on and how the fight ended. It’s by the book and has structure. It’s very common over seas make up records. I fought in Thailand they lied about my record without my consent. They had on the poster that I had thirty something wins and it was only my third or fourth pro fight

[@mastrezach]

Great informative video as always TJ.

[@reaemishi2278]

It's actually the ape culture that made me drop watching UFC. God it got tiresome. If I wanted to watch grown men embarrassing themselves with fake beef I'd watch WWE. UFC pressers are basically the same thing at this point, just with half the charisma.

[@danielaraujo1238]

Im surprised you didnt mention ONE’s debut in my home state of Colorado. It was a huge success and ONE is looking to continue pushing for it.

[@leezap]

They found a niche market.

[@natetripp3932]

IF dana white tried to co-promote/bring kickboxing into the UFC as different fights, it would be way too complicated with the fans wanting the best kick-boxer to face off with the biggest star in the UFC. Just imagine what a headache it would be if all that was talked about was the #1 contender or champ kick-boxer vs the #1 or champ UFC fighter, it would completely overshadow and distract everyone and stall good fights being made on either side. Not a good idea.

[@ImMeE19]

I love Muay Thai so much & I’m from California. Those dudes are the elite of the elite strikers

[@rizzz___]

Not "western", just "The United States of America".

[@ArtifaxEdits]

Haven't watched yet but god damn great topic to cover. clicked this soon as i saw it.

[@bluebone1116]

I just fucking died laughing when you showed the vid of that guy cursing about Kristaps Porzingis getting drafted to the Knicks😂😂 but for real though its sad how people are prejudiced towards foreigners and are quick to judge even though they earned the right to be there.

[@revan5293]

I love that video 😂

[@joriankell1983]

That's a terrible point he made. MMA has plenty of hard to pronounce names. It's complete bullshit.

[@cameronketch2363]

​@@joriankell1983I agree. Plus whenever I travel around the world people poke a little bit of fun at foreign names. It's also hard to pronounce sounds you aren't used to seeing or hearing. It's normal. There are English words people have a hard time pronouncing until you have learned the word. Honestly that was a dumb point by op imo.

[@akira17_samurai]

That special rule fight in one with mighty mouse and rod tang is one of the best fight I've seen

[@RGP43_]

The reason mma standup is better than normal standup is because of the pace

[@Fighttopia]

TJ back with another banger- Big up my fellow asians

[@markmessi9020]

Grappling in mma ironically leads to more exciting styles of standup than two people in front of each other trading kick for kick. You telling me wonderboy isnt exciting af? Rose beating down Joana who was supposed to destroy her because she had superior "kickboxing?" Volk being able to calf kick, box and then take you down and maul you on the ground? MMA is just more exciting than kick fighting and yes i watch tawanchai and rodtang, superbon, etc. Its good dont get me wrong, but but MMA striking is way more exciting imo.

[@w01f9ack8]

Im watching ONE cause thats where my boy mighty went and they show him the respect hes earned.

[@sack-shaw]

I think every reason after 1. is mostly inconsequential. The real issue is that no large promotion has put it's weight behind kickboxing. Don't forget that MMA almost didn't make it in the west and severely declined in Japan. It's success or failure has always been down to the actions of a few individuals and companies. Similarly, only a few people have any potential control over the future of kickboxing. The reasons lie with them, not nebulous cultural differences.

[@mike04574]

Even with a big promotion tho…

[@starkyboxing8698]

Not bad. I can honestly say the is unbiased. Subscribed!

[@Skelloter]

Rodtang could be whippersnapper van tinkle-winkle for all I care. The goat of todays muay thai scene will always be Iron Man!

[@bjf9304]

The West is heavily focused on branding, even over merit. Joe Louis and Rocky Marciano wouldn’t even be as popular today because they kept their head downs and did their job. Joe Frazier was an awesome boxer but the fast talking Muhammad Ali stole the show and everyone wants to be like him. It’s about flash and cult of personality. Dana White understands this. As for name pronunciations, it is absolutely true. Mostly for branding reasons. Even John Wayne changed his name to be more marketable. Charles Bronson too. As for kick boxing, I would really like to see elbows and knees.

[@Mrtamps]

I have gathered an opinion, I can't be bothered watching another sport and see another set of stars. MMA and a bit of boxing is enough for me

[@onalonan]

It think it's up to that fighters my friend who like which style they love. Because I saw more than 100,000+ fighters from all over the world have been coming to train here in Thailand every year and also more popular years after years. And these foreigner groups just only came here for trainning not the same group as the foreigners that came to Thailand to travel(about 40+ millions/year).

[@ericquirinale7750]

You can knee in kickboxing as well

[@DylanGrech]

As an amateur kickboxing practitioner; yes, we tend to be on the "smaller" side because of the extreme flexibility and agility required, being "lightweight" in most cases is advantageous. In regards to "shit talk", I completely agree. Yes we do have tremendous respect towards one an other because we understand the sacrifices and dedication needed to compete in such a high risk sport. Yes, we essentially try to kill each other in the ring but once the match is over, we look after each other like brothers because we sincerely enjoy the fight and want to be doing it again, and again. If this is what holds up the sport from blowing up, so be it. Most kickboxers / Muay Thai practitioners will never give up these values for popularity / money.

[@drunkenmmamaster419]

Imagine not liking someone because you can’t pronounce their name 😂

[@professor-wright]

I like one championship. I don't really watch UFC anymore. After McGregor was banging on the bus window.

[@Demonlord66-u6v]

I don’t know why Power Slap is failing don’t we all love the Oscar’s

[@lilcaldoverde]

I'm from Europe, Portugal to be exact, I don't watch MMA at all if it's not UFC, and the main reason why I watch UFC (even tho I don't follow it 100%) is because they have pretty much the best fighters in the world. I hate when they choke or make their opponents tap. That don't make any sense to me. Punching in the ground I don't really have a problem with it, I actually think it's pretty interesting to let the fight continue in that situation, and even tho MMA is more "free" and complete, I wish there was no choking and rolling around or making somebody tap out by trying to break their arms or whatever. I know about ONE Championship as well, and I like to watch Muay-Thai, I think that lots of fighters in the UFC would actually even "fit more" in MuayThai then MMA since some of them don't even try to use the "choking" to their advantage, and giving your opponent that is a big disadvantage for yourself - Connor McGregor for an example. I would like for UFC to do the same as ONE Championship, keep the same ring, but host different martial arts at the same time, or even in different events. MMA and Muay Thai at least. I think it would be pretty cool.

[@Q-Mac_]

I hope One Championship and Glory gets as popular as UFC and regular boxing in the USA. Casual American fans would love kickboxing and Muay Thai