WHY ROGAL DORN RETURNED TO TERRA! DID THE EMPEROR PREDICT THE HERESY?

[@eagleofceaser6140]

I think the Emperor knew that Chaos would make a play. What he didn't know was the timing and what form it would take. The Emperor probably thought he could finish the webway project before anything could stop it.

[@fredriktomte80]

But wasn't that Rho's point? That the Emperor expected an attack from chaos (among others), but he didn't expect that attack to take the form of half the SM-legions plus the Dark Mechanicum.

[@markmueller-rougier3098]

​@fredriktomte80 I am pretty sure Malcodor said to his dying astropathat that They expected this betrayal just not this soon. Which I took to mean they expected a large number of legions to betray them.

[@markcoroneos7811]

@@markmueller-rougier3098as the emperor says to ra, he can see many possible futures but you cant predict how things will actually turn out. He and malcador likely did see the possibilities of a heresy. They would have also seen chaos make a move in plenty of other directions. It would have been futile to plan for one eventuality, only to have another unfold. Nor could they afford to ply the game reactively and simply sit and wait for chaos to make a move before going ahead with their own plans - as that would also play into chaos’ hands. All he could do was move forward and play for the best outcome.

[@hotkettle2424]

And he would have succeeded too if not for that meddling Magnus.

[@grimwight1077]

It’s pretty clear that Dorn was brought to turn Terra into a fortress in defense of the webway gate. However, I feel that the thousand sons should have been brought along side the imperial fists. Include Magnus in the webway project since he was supposed to be the one to run it, and charge dorn with protecting it from external attack.

[@GaIvatr0n]

Smart

[@Dontreallycare5]

Indeed.

[@Erebdai]

exactly.

[@jjstone1645]

Indubitably

[@BookieHeretic]

Magnus was already corrupted. When he"fixed" the gene issues he'd already been ruined by chaos

[@Burn_pits]

Malcador literally had said on multiple occasions in the most recent siege books that plans were set in place for the most likely futures. He also said that he and the big E both knew that he could use the golden throne some time ago. He also said that the emperor ascending was always as option. When he was watching kila, he was talking about faith in emperor denying chaos and powering the emperor. Dark imperium novels explicitly stated that humanity greatest weapon is faith. It can bend the warp to its will but also the most dangerous weapon.

[@phillipgouthier5525]

Imagine Perterabo fortifying Luna or Saturn's ring while Dorn fortified Terra. Big E using their rivalry to a constructive end, while giving the Lord of Iron a chance to show what he could do

[@jwb_666]

no. perturabo is a petulant child and his siege craft is disappointing

[@phillipgouthier5525]

@@jwb_666 The Iron Cage wasn't disappointing

[@willesco7416]

The Emperor did know, though. This was mentioned across a few books. In Emperor of Mankind her said he knew the future but not the minute details. They knew that the Warmaster would turn. The demons called Horus the sacrificial son for this reason. In Outcast or Nemisis, they went to warn of Horus betrayal, but Malcador already knew. And in Alpha Legion novel they said if Mankind outright won it would be bad. If chaos won then the universe would eat itself. An eternal war gave them extra time, so he took 1 legion instead of many

[@UncleMikeDrop]

Dorn and Perturabo were meant to be complimentary counterparts in their respective fortification and siegecraft ability. Arguably, every Primarch had a counterpart which ironically sewed division.

[@UncleMikeDrop]

@maltheri9833 Roboute' Guilliman and Lorgar Aurelian The most impactful and least appreciated brothers.

[@dww6]

​@maltheri9833I always thought corax and alpharious were more alike.

[@diegogisbertllorens7416]

@@dww6 Corax, Konrad and Alpharius...The three heads of the hydra! *Plot twist*

[@dww6]

Redundancy was planned. Every skill has at least one backup and every role someone else who could do it. Even if you find one there are two we don't know about who might have been the cover. I'm pretty sure the emperor picked favourites so that he would get the better team should there ever be a civil war.

[@UncleMikeDrop]

@@dww6 True, but their first and best abilities are compliments. Secondary skills form the complimentary pairing.

[@bobjohnson1633]

As it drew closer and closer, the emperor could see it ever more clearly. He knew a heresy and civil war would happen. He didn't know exactly how

[@Ally.Cat.252]

Know? Wasn’t it part of his plan all along?

[@iloveplayingpr]

@@Ally.Cat.252 He could see, but the problem was he could see all possible civil war, pretty hard to prepare for that on a galactic scale.

[@Ally.Cat.252]

@@iloveplayingpr I know he could see the future etc what I’m saying is I’m pretty sure he planned the heresy but it just happened sooner than he planned. Even Malcador tells that dying lady that they planned the heresy.

[@BM-wf9uf]

​@@Ally.Cat.252There's a short story called Regicide. In the story The Emperor and Malcador the Sigilite are playing a game of chess, each piece represents a Primarch and they are trying to figure out who stays loyal and who betrays them. The Emperor could see the Heresy coming, he also knew that whoever he chose as Warmaster would fall. The issue is The Emperor didn't always know the details, he could see the Heresy but not how and when it starts or who sides with who. Interestingly though Malcador is highly suspicious of The Lion and doesn't believe him to be loyal but The Emperor never for a second doubts his loyalty. I think The Emperor knew that some of the Primarchs would be loyal to him no matter what and I think he thought he could save those who fell.

[@mlpsh6995]

It's worth remembering as well that if it wasn't for Magnus then the Custodes, Sisters of Silence and the Emperor himself could have been a lot more involved with the Heresy and tipped the balance in favour of the loyalists early on.

[@Coproquim]

The emperor didn’t plan the heresy, but he did plan for it. And my guess is that he chose Dorn to be his praetorian for the simple reason that he was the most incorruptible of all of the primarchs bar maybe Vulkan, and he picked Horus, because he knew that whoever he picked as Warmaster was guaranteed to fall, and Horus was the one who’s tactics would be easiest to predict whilst also annoying the rest of his sons the least. Unlike if he picked Angron, for example

[@carno8505]

That’s actually a really cool theory. I’ve never thought of it that way

[@RaimoKangasniemi]

Horus was his favourite. Surely he would have chosen someone who he knew he could make himself kill when the time would come? Without having his spine broken first. ;)

[@Coproquim]

@@RaimoKangasniemi Horus was his first son, Sanguinius was his favourite

[@RaimoKangasniemi]

@@Coproquim One legitimate viewpoint, yes, but the relationship between Horus and the Emperor was pretty unique. (Of course, Alpharius might claim he was the real confidant and favourite. ;) )

[@Coproquim]

@@RaimoKangasniemi which is why he knew he could likely predict his actions

[@carsoncasmirri3874]

Makes sense. You know what you do when you have won a great victory? You don’t keep pushing up, you consolidate and fortify your position

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

There can be myriad reasons for such a deployment. The Emperor did not foresee the Heresy! Or if he did, he missed so many critical detail as to makes no different. The Sol system was becoming the capital of a Galactic Imperium, the traffic to it was colossal. It could well need a Praetorian to oversee it. If the Webway project suddenly needed a military element, having a Legion on hand makes sense. And then there is Mars. The twin Empire wasn't fully trustworthy, so having a Legion close by would help. Perhaps The Emperor foresaw a potential thread to the Sol system, and so made Dorn ready. As I said, many options.

[@saltyshackles5227]

That game of Regecide Big E had with Malcador showed they had a good understanding of what was going to happen.

[@warhawkofchogoris8555]

He absolutely knew heresy would occur, the question was who would lead it and when. What I find interesting is how he decided to appoint Horus knowing whoever he chose would likely fall to Chaos.

[@Diomedes_XXII]

I love it. Perfectly timed as well... was just singing the praise of Dorn & the VII Legiones Astartes.

[@qwertystania]

I think you missed the primarch that represents the biggest hole in the idea that the Emperor knew that the heresy was coming. Magnus was the most powerful psyker and was being groomed to sit upon the golden throne in the Emperor's stead. The Emperor had also discovered, at the council of Nikea, that Magnus had been delving too deep into the warp. If Magnus had been on Terra, the Emperor could have taught and guided Magnus's experiments with the warp, while also keeping an eye on him. And then, if a rebellion broke out, Magnus could take the Emperor's place on the throne if it came to that.

[@justinLaw5]

The only legion that could've stopped the Istvan V massacre was also the only one that could protect Terra. Honestly the Emperor expected trouble, as in Master of Mankind he must had knew something was going to happen but didn't know the specifics, as such Dorn was a perfect pick, it is discreet since the rest of the crusade didn't need the imperial fist specifically and having other primarchs like Guilliman or the Lion could've arisen suspicions

[@davidlister7590]

I expect he could see the Heresy but not WHO would turn and as such made the choice to bring back the one he was sure he could trust and was a speclist at defence fortification. It could be the Heresy could change based on who he was to bring back and what ever steps he took could change who would turn and as such made the only safe choice he could see. The Emp might of also forseen the webway backfire and flood the place with Demons maybe not why it happens but that it MIGHT and so wish for fortification incase. He might of been able to forsee the Nids or maybe the Necrons? or even maybe the War of the beast.

[@lUseMyBlade]

The emperor knew he who was chosen as warmaster would betray the imperium but The emperor didn't know how deep the Chaos Corruption went.

[@WolfingtonStanley]

I like the explanation given by Baldermort, he wanted to see the joy on Rogals face when they got the news that the great crusade was completed Call me an old romantic but I like it

[@scottphillips8607]

Horus himself acknowledged Dorn as the greatest military commander of his brothers. Guilliman is a better leader overall and is probably the best primarch for almost anything that doesn't require him to fight, but he's not a better general than Dorn, and he's not smarter than Perturabo. Perturabo is less stable than Dorn, so Dorn is the obvious choice to defend the capital. Guilliman could better run the imperium, but against Perturabo he'd have lost.

[@Machiroable]

Pretty sure even Guilliman admited that he could not unite his brothers under a single banner without major issues. I mean, the breaking of the legions nearly caused another civil war.

[@Shatterfury1871]

Thank you for point the obvious! Dorn, by all accounts, was the best overall commander. Horus confided in Dorn alone when he had doubts about strategy. He ruled a intersellar empire and had a very good grasp on logistics, second only to Guilliman. Wolf keeps on repeating that Dorn, after the conclusion of the Heresy, gave up the title of Lord Commander and, at that time, considered a better pick. Well, duh, compared to Dorn, Guilliman was on easy difficulty compared to Dorn. Dorn had to coordinate the entire war effort and take to the field at the same time during the Siege of Terra. Dorn also had to carry the Emperor back to the Throne and received the Emperor`s final orders. Understandably Dorn was fatigued and needed to blow off some steam by scouring the Traitors from the material real but he had to let someone in charge. At that specific time was Guilliman a better pick. Dorn was the obvious choice for Supreme Military Commander of the Imperium.

[@danielmcdonald3296]

Corax definitely had Big E's absolute trust. The dude gave him the means, and technology that he himself used to craft the legions/primarchs after the DSM.

[@nosavepoints]

Well, in The First Lord of the Imperium, Malcador mentions that he and the emperor knew/planned for the fall of half the primarchs. The only issue is, is that it happened sooner than they had expected due to the interference of the chaos gods.

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

That is a famous moment, but worth remembering, that he said that to comfort a dying old friend. And after she passed away, he cried and lamented lying. Now he could have been lying about what awaited her after death, that they planned the Heresy or both.

[@bohellan6227]

​@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen Luetin did a fascinating dissection of that conversation in one of his Emperor series videos. But ultimately, Malcador had no reason to lie to his dying astropath, and creating an elaborate lie to soothe her fears makes very little sense. He could've so easily told her of non-existent armies in storage or any of a number of believable lies that would've had a better effect. And his final comments were directed to himself and Big E.

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

@@bohellan6227 I did see that video. I slightly disagree with the idea, that he could have lied about the strategical situation of the War. She was his old personal Astropath as I remember. She would have a solid knowledge of the war.

[@bohellan6227]

​@@Kristian.B.Kristiansen True, she would know much, but likely not a detailed picture (Rogal was running the war, Malcador was focusing on other stuff). And as to telling a lie, from the arguably second best liar on Terra, she believes the Emperor will catch her, so she's clearly been around Big E long enough to start thinking he can see the future clearly (as she doesn't have the perspective granted to Custodes Ra). So why wouldn't she have believed another story where the Emperor's foresight led the traitors into a trap, or had the Dark Angels and Toilet Seat worshippers on standby to trap the heretics?

[@ragnarlodbrok8399]

This

[@Marcher1977]

The Emperor saw the Heresey as a potential future. This is similar to where he shows Magnus a futures where he turned his back on chaos and if Horus didn't fall. E can see far and wide but there are still things he can't control or account for.. if he acted on every possible future he couldn't get anything done.

[@fixedG]

I think he expected some kind of rebellion but couldn't be sure when or what form it'd take and was simultaneously handling things in the optimal way in balance of all options. His foresight not being perfect, he might have also been foreseeing other stuff that may have come to pass before or after a galactic civil war, such as needing the Ultramarines huge numbers on the eastern fringe where he expected first contact with the Tyranids would occur at some point, and just been off by millennia. Needing to continue to suppress Orks all over was an ever-present threat best handled by legion strength and Primarch leadership to smash. He knew Chaos could act anywhere so he needed his forces everywhere. Conquest is only complete if you can hold what you conquer and you can't do that if you close ranks and bring everyone home. By bringing Dorn home, it signalled a shift from outward conquest to holding what you had claimed at home and abroad.

[@ReconCrusader]

Of course he knew. Just a question of how much and how detailed. If I was to speculate. I'd say he knew damn near everything. And he probably knew what would happen if humanity "won" but the warp remained tainted and corrupt. A similar fate to the eldar or worse long term.

[@HarleyHerbert]

I've always thought that the simple answer was always the most likely and reasonable. Pretty much every faction would want to hit Terra, it's the heart of the imperium and the impact of losing this one planet would be an even greater blow than losing any entire system, possibly even any sector. If you want to make an empire long lasting at makes sense to ensure its capital can't get smashed by any of the many enemies out there, especially when there's enemies as powerful as the various factions of 40k. Plus the crusade was going well and was led by his very capable sons who all were able to continue without requiring the emperor's supervision or assistance. And so far the focus had been on expansion and conquest. It makes sense once things were reaching this stage to start delegating more tasks to others so he can focus on things like consolidating and fortifying what they have already gained, and proceeding to the next stage of his plans.

[@Le_Petit_Lapin]

Even the Emperor knew Dorn wasnt cool enough to turn rebel.

[@BM-wf9uf]

Big E: Dorn, my son, I need you to come to Terra and fortify the shit out of the Sol System. Dorn: Ok, why? Big E: Oh, no particular reason...

[@toddolson4614]

Rho I love your theory about using Rogal to defend the webway. But i have to believe that the Emporer and Malcador both knew about the Heresy. There was a mention of the Emporer and Malcador playing a game where the primarchs were pieces and playing the game with different mixes to see what happened. I believe this was done to see who should be warmaster and the best to align with whom.

[@Subject_Keter]

Each if you kept the Heresy "simple" for each Primarch going rogue, that would too many things to prepare for and too many things you would have to "Lets see if that happens"

[@thatotherguy8138]

I'm pretty sure by now that the best way to reconcile the vast, VAST differences between how the Emperor treated the various Primarchs is to say that he planned for some to go rogue... and that he had his favourites. It might even be the only way to reconcile it. It might have started with just a combination of "bad" writing and poor to no oversight from GW, but at this point, the only decent way to keep all of the current canon meetings the way they are AND to keep the Emperor from being an absolute idiot is to say he planned for a Heresy. He just didn't know exactly how it was going to go.

[@fredriktomte80]

Who did he treat the worst and who did he treat the best? Because if this theory is to hold any value, he has to have been at least somewhat correct about who would turn. Because if he didn't have a good notion of who would turn, randomly treating half of the primarchs like crap mostly seems like a good way to insure that the comming civil war would be lost.

[@mersenniusprime]

I've thought this since the beginning of the novel series. Him not foreseeing the Heresy would have required him, a 40,000 year-old gestalt-souled psychic demigod to have not used his foresight, not seen into the minds of Eldrad, Ahriman, Kurze, Sanguinius, or any of the others that foresaw the Heresy, not noticed the daemons following around the Thousand Sons in the guise of the tutelaries, not recognized the corruption in the Word Bearers at Monarchia (which was well after Erebus had begun his plans), somehow completely forgotten running into time travel ghost Horus when the primarchs were scattered, not have learned from previous betrayals by people he titled "warmaster", not realize that sons named "Angron" and "Mortarion" were doomed to fall to Chaos, not recognize the flesh change in the Thousand Sons as being the work of Tzeentch (as well as not realize that Mangus was inevitably going to bumble his way into corruption), and just generally completely ignore the possibility that Chaos might try to turn his sons against him. He would have to have been psychically crippled, completely ignorant of those around him, stupid, and forgetful. That's before you even get into how he treated the primarchs. It just cannot jive with the overwhelming brilliance he shows basically everywhere else. I've seen people say that he probably just can't empathize with humans, but that makes absolutely no sense, considering that he is (presumably still canonically) made of thousands of them, managed to stay hidden for tens of thousands of years, and seems to consistently predict large trends in behavior. It seems completely impossible to reconcile the man who placed the Void Dragon on Mars with a man capable of completely missing the Heresy.

[@thatotherguy8138]

@@fredriktomte80 Mortarion and Angron he treated horribly right from the beginning. He seemed to neglect Conrad and Perturabo in ways that are just baffling if he didn't KNOW that some were going to go rogue, and he preferred Dorn and Corvus and/or Sanguinius over Conrad and Perturabo. Lorgar was treated horribly later on in a way that seemed intended to pit the Word Bearers against the Ultramarines in any future conflict. All of those Primarchs were "broken" in some way when the Emperor found them, so if the Emperor knew that there would be a rebellion against him, these would be ones he could more easily allow to rebel or to push them in that direction (Lorgar). Russ, Corvus and Vulkan he treated very well right from the beginning, and all throughout the 30k setting. Dorn was given an honoured position, the Lion and Guilliman were both favoured by the Emperor in other ways. But none of them seem to be unreasonably favoured by the Emperor, just properly rewarded for competence. And subtly compelled to be more loyal than others. The rest aren't so cut and dry, and a lot of that is down to the writing and (lack of) oversight. But there's enough to work with where if you want to believe the Emperor anticipated a Rebellion of some sort, there's ample potential evidence for it. (if you decide to keep them as-is and you don't dismiss some of it, like his dealings with Angron and using the Ultramarines to help punish the Word Bearers, as simply "bad writing" or "The Emperor was Dumb") I'm personally of the opinion that the Emperor expected a rebellion, but thought it would be centuries in the making and would NOT involve the forces of Chaos to any significant degree. That he would have plenty of time to finish his Webway project before there was any serious problems with Rebellion. But Chaos got directly involved, and well...

[@BerathorPainting]

See I think he saw glimpses of the future and knew who he couldn't rely on. And I also personally believe he NEEDED the heresy to happen to get himself to a position to become a God.

[@LysimedVenteel]

@@BerathorPainting The Emperor is no god, and never shall be. He is a man, albeit an extraordinary one.

[@warmech95]

I think if the Emperor brought more legions back to Terra it would have tipped off the Chaos gods that something was going on. That and there was still lots more of the galaxy yet to liberate. Plus when you have more than one Primarch in the mix, egos and suspicions start to undermine things. Chances are someone would have done something to mess things up before Magnus even got close.

[@mikestafford6900]

My thoughts exactly...multiple legions would attract too much attention

[@GabrielLopez-mo2xo]

Naw honestly even if you end up losing the khan or sanguinus it’s worth it to have Magnus at terra. Even if he and dorn fight the emperor would be walking around able to tell them to chill out. Even if Magnus was late and the webway was ripped the heresy took 7 years I doubt that between the emperor malcador and Magnus they could not have at least stopped the bleeding and shut off the webway temporarily allowing the arguably most powerful primarch and legion to join a full strength emperor and Custodes legion in defense of terra. The traitors lose hands down.

[@mikestafford6900]

@@GabrielLopez-mo2xo the most powerful psyker and the dude known for fortifications. Potent combo, would have prevented Prospero, but I think it would have shown too much of the Emperor's hand and tipped Chaos off/raised too many eyebrows amongst the Primarchs...if Magnus had stayed loyal the traitors wouldn't have stood a chance though. Hindsight is 20/20

[@Wigalot]

I think it was to give Rogal Dorn the final instructions of exactly where to be and what to do with the Phallanx when the Emporer reaches godhood when Cypher kills his physical form. Its all going to plan. Before anyone says Dorns dead RIP..... Dorn lives! GW retconned the date of the Rynn's World Disaster to coincide with the end of the Indomitus Crusade. The book Rynn's World happens to give a fairly solid hint that Dorn is alive (Dorns actual blood returns from dust to blood inside a relic once a year on CFs home world.) I can't think of any other reason GW would retcon the date of the disaster if they weren't planning on Dorn returning and a IF, CF and BT etc etc story arch. (BTs have had lore continuation and so have Crimson Fists. The CFs Chapter Master met Guilliman and was ordered by the primarch himself to "Stand ready!" (what ever that means). We have also seen continuation in the lore of the phalanx and IFs..... As a Dorn fan I can't wait for 11th Edition. After seeing 10th Edition play out similarly to 2nd Edition (UM and Nids) so far I think 11th Ed will be Dorns time to shine and we will see BT's and Dark Eldar in the box set like we did in 3rd Edition.

[@piercebrosnan9528]

Rogal Dorn still lives and will return. "YES"

[@Wigalot]

@@piercebrosnan9528 "Primarch-Progenitor, to your glory and the glory of him on earth!"

[@irishwarlord100]

Whenever I heard conversation around the Emperor and his foresight, I instantly think of his lesson of foresight to Ra Endomyion. He can see the objcetive in the distance but there are too many possibliltys between here and there to know exactly what is going to happen. So he safe guarded Terra with the best fortifying leigon he had and the most stubborn primarch.

[@CrimsonTemplar2]

I agree that the 7th were brought back to Terra to build upon the webway project. Not only would the paths that humanity would use through it need to be pacified & fortified, but also a Legion would be beneficial in dealing with the Navigators & their cartels. Also, I think the Custodes would stay to guard the palace. The 10,000 only fought the war in the webway during the heresy because Dorn & the 7th were then needed to fortify the Sol system & Terra.

[@paddywop918]

Of course it makes sense, since he could see many possible outcomes. He put horus in charge because he knew whoever took the lead would fall, so he put the one who was most worthy for the position but one he could do with out. Gulliman needed to mantain Ultramar in the case the emperor failed. Now with the lion's book, when and why did he place the shield away for the lion? There was 4 possible outcomes, from what i see...death for humanity, the death of the imperium but life for ultramar, the emperor wins and the webway established, the webway fails and a new god must be born.

[@Wolfenacht]

Here are my 2 cents on the emperor only bringing back one legion. It has been said over and over that the Emperor can see a bunch of outcomes and he tries his best to steer it in one direction/help move humanity where he wants it to go. So there could be another 5000+ scenarios that could have been far worse if he took more than one. It's almost like playing the lesser evils game. If he took 3 legions then if everything worked out fine, he would be in a much better position, but that also means if it still went wrong, he could be in a fair more terrible position. So he would try to pick the closest to the medium of what he wants. Where if it goes wrong, he has the best possible solution and chances of fixing it. I may have explained that badly, but basically like gambling. You could put 2 dollars down, and if you win, you aren't really richer, but if you lose, you aren't really poorer. He could bet all 500 dollars, which means if he wins he is easily richer, but if he loses then he lost it all. As for seeing the treachery, there is some validation that the Emperor needed to become godlike, what is more godlike than something you can't really see anymore, but can still create miracles? If he started the crusade with claiming to be a god, then that means the chaos gods could easily show their existence, or other searching for the other "gods" that have to be out there. So he gambled on removing religion, and he wanted to get the gateway up so he didn't need the religious route, but it failed. So now his power is growing, because humanity fair outweighs everything out there. If everyone believes in the god emperor, then he should be stronger than the chaos gods himself. So that's my thoughts on it. Did he know there could be a treachery? Yeah, but he tried to play his cards to the effect of the least impactful ways, which is why it took him thousands of years to slowly move in a direction instead of an overnight gamble. :)

[@saucemandela]

I’m a strong believer that The Emperor not only foresaw the heresy, but quite honestly engineered it himself. The crusade was merely the Emperor’s observation time for which primarchs would be able to continue on after humanity was reunited fully. I think the true twist of the entire heresy will be that it was always the emperor’s plan, but chaos’ intervention is what changed the players for both sides

[@johnnieschatz693]

I know I give ya a hard time about too many smurf videos 📹 lol 😆. But I am very happy to watch and hear this video of Rogal Dorn!!!

[@brockwilkie6022]

Defending terra like you said makes perfect sense! However, I feel like he knew a civil war would come eventually. I just think he thought he had more time, preferably after the webway project was done and there was no other forces to fight. Then some legions would get itchy trigger fingers and rebel. He just REALLy underestimated chaos, probably didn't think they could/would put aside their differences to fight him together in such a fashion. Once the Webway was taken then it would not have been a big deal getting the legions from distant locations and returning to Terra.

[@rithmantyr]

If you need a yellow builder, you don't call for a blue bureaucrat.

[@nadrak5974]

I would love to hear the theories of what difference it would of made if the Emperor had chosen Perturabo to be the Pretorian instead of, or aswell as Dorn.

[@onemisterfranko]

Malcador has a conversation with Sigismund and Raldaron in Dorns primarch novel, he lays out some of the big reasons he chose Dorn.

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

Total unwavering obedience, and a complete lack of personal interpretation in carrying out the Emperors orders to the letter. I.e Dorn was a cold soild block of stone to build on

[@Phobosptt]

Lets not forget that during the game with Malcador, it was asked to the Emperor if he knows whats coming why allow it. The Emperor foresaw all the possibilities and the one that came through made sure the Loyalist Primarchs were the ones we know, as if any of them turned Traitor instead the consequences would be much worse. It basically all this was because of a massive butterfly effect the Emperor knew and chose the lesser evil.

[@Duppyman695]

The Emperor knew what was going to happen and what needed to happen, to hold back the tides of Chaos the Imperial palace would need to be *Fortified* and who better than Rogal Dorn!

[@BM-wf9uf]

Uh, Perturabo... Perturabo was systematically picking apart Dorn's defences during the siege. If he didn't crack the dad's and leave with his Legion they would have overrun the loyalists.

[@Duppyman695]

@@BM-wf9uf To be fair I meant out of the Primarchs still loyal but your right in that if the Emperor had foresight to see the Heresy then Perturabo could of been an asset at the Siege.

[@slitth]

The Heresy started just after Monarchia, when Lorgar started to look for a new truth. And Dorn was to fortify the webway so they could conquer it on fortress at a time.

[@oldeskul]

I think once the Rangdan Xenocides ended, the Emperor knew that some of his sons would rise up and rebel against him. He was certain that the Ruinous Powers had some inroads into his sons. He knew Angron would definitely rebel, that it was highly likely that Kurze would descend into madness at take up arms against him, he was confident that Mortarion would rebel against him and I'm pretty sure he knew that Lorgar would rebel, especially after the razing of Monarchia. He was completely blindsided by Horus and Fulgrim falling to chaos and rebelling. He was also completely caught unawares by Tzeench tempting Magnus, giving him a power boost to break through the psychic wards and wrecking the webway project, which basically sidelined him for almost the entirety of the heresy. The primarchs the Emperor knew were 100% loyal pre-heresy were Horus Lupercal, Lion el'Johnson, Sanguinius, Roboutte Guilleman, Leman Russ, Vulcan, Alpharius, Fulgrim and Rogal Dorn. At the absolute most, he thought that there would be 5, maybe 6 primarchs, along with their legions who would rebel against him, and he thought he'd have the numbers to fight off the traitors, cull their legions then censure, imprison or execute their primarchs, he didn't foresee a full half of the Imperium rising up in revolt against him. Outside of the ones he knew for certain who would fall to the corruption of chaos and rebel, he questioned the loyalty of Corvus Corax, Omegon, Ferrus Manus and Jaghati Khan, he just didn't know with absolute certainty where their loyalties lay. The biggest limitation that Big E had at that time was that he still perceived things like a human.

[@chaptermastermarneuscalgar6926]

Saying Tzeetch tempted Magnus downplays the extent Magnus got played; The Thousand Sons were almost wiped out by and affliction known as the flesh change and in order to save his legion Magnus made a deal with a warp entity (guess who), which Magnus then killed or at least he thought he did. Allowing Magnus to think he'd killed the warp entity was something of a master stroke by Tzeentch because it made Magnus think he knew more about the true nature of the warp then Emperor and was one of the reasons he smashed through the psychic wards without a second thought. Tzeentch was also stirring up animosity between the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves to completely trap Magnus, to make matters worse a daemon revealed that Tzeentch was the one who caused the flesh change in the first play. Also the Alpha Legion weren't exactly loyal because they were involved in an insane Eldar plot to wipe out Chaos by sacrificing Mankind and they would have also taken Terra if the Imperial Fists had joined the reprisal force against Horus, which is why the Emperor ordered them to remain in the Sol system.

[@iloveplayingpr]

The Emperor could've completed the Webway had he brought Magnus in earlier. Chaos took the opportunity to paralyze him on the throneworld with magnus breaking the Secret Project so early.

[@chaptermastermarneuscalgar6926]

Or it would have made the situation even worse because you seem to be forgetting that Maguns has been an unwitting puppet of Tzeentch for years.

[@ianporcaro1874]

Rogal, Roboute on defense, Lion and Russ on offensive Would’ve been great

[@yeoldchief7711]

At the time, i think the emperor knew something was going to go down, so only taking one with him makes sense. Dorn and the Imperial Fist's are security, they can take over while the Custodes do other things and no lapses would likely happen.

[@djchappell1726]

I think it poignant to recall that the navigator houses would no doubt crippled the EoM if they had heard about the near completion of the first human corridor through the webway. I subscribe to this being the reason for secrecy.

[@jocsanabdala9456]

If the primarchs are aspects of the emperor, it’s safe to say that like Sanguinius and Conrad, the emperor could see the future. My head canon is that the emperor saw the limitation of humanity during the Dark Age of Humanity when it came to the warp. At this time, humanity showed dominion over the physical galaxy, but we’re eventually overcome by the immaterium. The existence of the primarchs themselves are attempts by the emperor to dominate the immaterium.

[@Mark-nh7zg]

It's interesting to think though that Perturabo, who always craved his dad's approval, would probably have stayed loyal if he were called back to Terra.

[@farisattva]

What if the Emperor saw the Dornian Heresy instead, and called Rogal Dorn back to Terra to try and prevent it...

[@TK199999]

I think that in all the EoM visions of the future and the possible versions of the Hersey. It was just as important that the rest of Loyal Legions stay out in the galaxy. As for why especially Guillemin and Ultramarines were kept in galaxy. This goes back to the EoM seeing versions of the Hersey. By keeping the Guillemin and Ultramarines away, Logar, Angron and their legion focused on them totally. At the same time boys in Blue need to be there find the Pharos and set up Imperious Secondus to bring the Lion and the Angel there during the Ruin Storm. Only later for both Dark Angels and Ultramarines to help the Angel and his legion reach Terra just before the siege, something Horus hadn't expected.

[@conorflanagan9000]

This is just my own line of thinking, but on the topic of not bringing Guilliman to Terra, the main reason I can think is this: If the Emperor truly did foresee the Heresy, then he could have foreseen Imperium Secundus. If the method of Heresy was unknown to him, it stands to reason that he might have doubted Guilliman after seeing his future "second founding", mistaking that to be a product of betrayal. Likewise he could have seen the presence of the Fallen in a vision, therefore the Lion would be out. Dorn is the best choice purely because if he saw Dorn's death, he knows it would be in his service. Just my two cents anyway

[@jordanoguynn7126]

ok but the word bears did attack ultramare as far as foresight goes that does throw a wrench in bring their whole legion and what Gullimen had to go through to hold it they wouldnt have had reinforcements which is a huge part of his strategy

[@mlpsh6995]

The Emperor made it pretty clear how his foresight worked in Master of Mankind. The Emperor saw something would happen but not the specifics. He probably didn't see fully half the Imperial Army and Titan Legions turning, or Magnus breaking the wards of the Imperial Palace. He probably thought 3 or 4 Legions would turn and the situation would be manageable rather than the catastrophe it turned out to be.

[@randomjaddis9680]

The emperor should have taken Magnus with him. If it was his plan to have Magnus sit on the throne, it would’ve been smarter to get the Thousand Sons involved sooner to try and foil any Chaos power play

[@chaptermastermarneuscalgar6926]

I'm pretty sure that would have made Magnus's folly even worse seeing as he was basically turned into Tzeentch's unwitting puppet shortly after being given command of the Thousand Sons.

[@dww6]

The emperor planned the heresy. It might have always been the backup plan(certainly the end result was) but apotheosis was always the end goal. Had Magnus not goofed the emperor would have been there to sort it out, there are a couple of things that meant he had to plan for it (scattering, finding them, losing 2) but the webway stuff is what lead to very few options.

[@christophermcbride4230]

The redundancy of the Primarchs are as follows: Lion El'Jonson - Horus Vulkan - Ferrus Manus Sanguinius - Fulgrim Dorn - Perturabo Corax - Curze Alpharius - J. Khan Gulliliman - Lorgar Russ - Angron Mortarion - Magnus

[@Kabrinsky1]

They were a precaution from chaos interference or unexpected enemies in the webway.

[@sebastianrubio928]

He knew it was coming, the future is not easy to predict though, this was the best of possible futures, in other versions other primarchs turned while some remained loyal. I actually wouldn't mind a "What If" Heresy series.

[@JK-1975]

Gulliman would never have been able to give 100% focus on Terra, his nature would have him being divided between Ultramar and Earth.

[@yellowdancer7055]

I do not believe the Emperor foresaw the HH but rather was preparing for an orchestrated Civil War to cull the Legions post Crusade

[@marvinellis7221]

The emperor knew that it was one of 2 sons that could organize the heresy. Horus or Gulliman. Just sent the Lion to go present that ring.

[@Leofilmperson]

I don't think the role of Ultramar for the Imperium can be overstated. The galaxy as a whole and the Ultima segmentum in particular is a big place and Ultramar is the one region reliably producing a surplus of resources. Without a functioning Ultramar the Imperium would have likely fallen milennia ago.

[@Shadowzaba]

I agree that it was a response for the Emperor working on the web way. To keep an eye on real space while he was in the warp.

[@15DEAN1995]

My guess for the original reason why rogal was chosen, is the emperor wanted rogal to fortify the webway as they claimed it. Plus if daemons were a problem rogals warp resistance would be a big help

[@udp1073]

I "First Lord of the Imperium" Malcador, speaking with, if memory serves me well, the historitor his friend, clearly states that the primarch are means to an end, that the imperium was never ment for post humans (so no primarch and spaces marines) but for humans AND that the war that they were in was part of the plan since the beginning, to thin the herd (all 18 of them). The only thing out of control was that the forces of chaos made their move too early than what the Emperor expected. Not for a minute I thought that the heresy happened by mistake... it was part of the plan... in the book where the thrice cursed lupercal meet Russ, the future warmaster is clearly jelous, unable to cope with ONE of his brother, go figure when the other 18 (the two lost ones at that point were just missing, like all the other but lupercal and Russ)... I even bet the emperor, in a way or another, gat a role to play in the scattering of the infant primarch, to have each and every one lands on the intended planet... Dorn was recalled to Terra because the Emperor knew

[@Interrobang212]

It could have been even simpler. he knew he would be cloistered up in the webway project, and thought it simple prudence to have fortifications while he in the custodians were busy.

[@ctirons]

Malcador mentions in Dorn's Primarch novel that one of the main reasons he was made Praetorian was because Rogal obeys Big E's orders to the letter, exactly as said without question. That's one of the overarching themes of the book too, if any of you haven't read it I definitely recommend it.

[@BM-wf9uf]

I'd like to read it. But the problem is Dorn has as much personality as a beige curtain...

[@lordcrakkin965]

NOOOO....He didn't know exactly what would happen. He knew there would eventually be a galactic turmoil, but he didn't know when and specifically who would turn. Rogal was to beef up the webway defenses. I imagine Rogal would have been assigned with going into the Webway and establishing fortifications on all external gates as well. The webway can only be secured if ALL doors are either locked or guarded.

[@steveforrest1885]

The emporer either knew and wanted it or he’d have just had Horus killed. Or he didn’t know.

[@RaimoKangasniemi]

Parents should really talk more and keep less secrets from their children... Only Lorgar would have been likely to fall to Chaos if the Emperor would have told all of his sons the truth about the Warp and his secret project on Terra.

[@BloodyArchangelus]

Answer is simple. YES.

[@demonicdimentio2533]

i mean something i find interesting is rogal was if im not miss remembering the only one of the loyalist primarchs who actually killed there brother fully without leaving an opportunity to survive i mean even russ the emperors executioner had hesitated to kill there brother horus when he played its me your brother shtick and this is one of the people the emperor trusted unconditionally as pointed out in the video so possibly the emperor judged rogal the right man to be able to kill there brothers should push come to shove but thats only one interpritation

[@mlpsh6995]

The Heresy began with Kor Phareon and Erebus.

[@FigthAGAINSTSCOIALISM]

I think if it was Guliman back at terra that would have caused issues. Expecially considering how the high council went down.

[@ehtrid7038]

I think He put them there as fail safe ,if webway project failed he would have best defensive legion with geneseed most resistant of copuption of chaos (that Emoeror and Malkador know for sure) just for that he was best choise and all rest was just bonus benefits having Dorn and IV there

[@timz4217]

The heresy was started when everyone stole a single knife from the intersex

[@jamm88er]

In the short the Board is Set, Malcador and the Emperor discuss why Dorn was on Terra. In short Hydra Dominatus

[@andarchy1386]

I think big e knew but didn't know who would fall and who wouldn't that's why he brought Rogal and I think he even knew about secundus that's why he didn't bring Guilliman

[@UncleMikeDrop]

I don't like the idea of the Emperor predicting the Horus Heresy. It undermines the essential humanity of him and his Primarchs as well as the brutal irony of the Imperium of Man. Brutal irony is the core theme of the entire Warhammer 40k setting.

[@licensed_beheader]

Like it or not him not foreseeing the heresy when countless other xenos psykers and even some imperial psykers and Konrad foreseeing it to various degrees while the emperor allegedly didn't even catch a whiff of it doesn't make sense. But again it could be the gods themselves went to great lengths in person to ensure he didn't foresee or maybe he foresaw the heresy and 10,000 other potential futures.

[@N0TYALC]

Don’t like it? Don’t believe it. The universe is very accommodating to different interpretations

[@cjd2889]

I think that Big E saw the Heresy coming, but didn't know exactly which of his sons would fall to chaos. While he may have had implicit trust in several of his sons, if there's one thing you can count on with the other primarchs, it's petty squabbling and jealousy getting in the way of duty. Guilliman would have tied Dorn up in too much bureaucratic red tape for him to have Terra fully fortified in time. Russ would have been just as likely to sabotage the fortifications or disobey Dorn's orders so he could have a less boring fight.

[@davec3618]

I think a lot of these discussions are shaded by the fact that we knew that the heresy was coming. I think the emperor brought rogal back because as the crusade went further and further his sons were further and further unable to help him should something happen. The imperial fists are the best defensive legion. Their job was to make sure that no other brother chapter would be needed and both the emperor's goals and the crusades goals could happen without any concern for the empire's safety.

[@Jaszunai]

I've heard it said that some of the Primarchs expressed doubts about Horus being the best choice for Warmaster, or felt they were a better choice, but I've never heard of any of the Primarchs being jealous that Dorn was the only brother the Emperor took back to Terra with him. Was it not a big deal?

[@richardkilner6702]

If you are bringing a second legion back to terra bring back the emperors children - that way fulgrim doesn’t turn due to the lair blade, ferris doesn’t go nuts wanting to kill him so the loyalists are technically up 2 legions and the traitors are down one

[@zooeyglass7643]

If the Emperor should have taken Magnus to defend Terra. Dorn is the obvious choice on the physical defense, Magnus is the obvious choice to defend against the warp. Magnus makes the most sense since he was also destine to sit on the throne.

[@dr.rotwang]

At the risk of pointing out the obvious here, there is also the fact the Terra is the imperial fists home world. Their fortress monastery is on Terra at this time. Its where Rogal goes to chill, build, and prepare with his sons. Its also where the imperial fists recruit from to this day. Yes Rogal is great at building and defending, and whether he was there to do so against foes from the webway or the heresy is up for debate. But it doesn't change the fact that Terra is where the imperial fists always return at the end of a long campaign Rogal especially.

[@Sugarierspoon99]

I think ferrus and his legion should have gone with dorn because they would have been perfect in a battle for terra and the fact they were just one of the best primarchs and legions also trustworthy. Ferrus is depicted as an idiot because he of istvaam but its not true. Ferrus was winning until his legion was abandoned by his allies and the iron warriors and other traitor legions arrived. Only when he knew he was already dead did ferrus try one last charge at fulgrim where he was killed.

[@LCliffhanger]

I think its entirely reasonable to see Dorn on Terra as a pure precaution. The only people i think ive seen who actually like the idea of the Emperor planning everything are the same people who think Angron and Lorgar are the peak of Primarch writing, have a raging hate boner for the Emperor, and absolutely love the idea that the Emperor is a purely psycopathic, sociopathic, and abusive tyrant that makes stupid decisions that planned for the whole heresy. They love this idea because the "bad dad" and "emperor bad" argument lets them feel like Lorgar and Angrons sob stories are enough of an excuse to feel like their favourite Primarchs and Legions are "the real good guys" Which is awful because it comes ar the expense of so much other lore for the sake of 2 pretty poorly written Primarchs. I think its ebough just to have Dorn on Terra as a precaution while the Emperor is occupied. And an extra degree of defence for his project. It would have been great if Magnus was there as well to take part, but that would likely have made Magnus a loyalist.

[@ryansauchuk7290]

The best offense is a good defense

[@toi_techno]

Dorn was probably just the least irritating Primarch As a chef I prefer people who keep their mouths shut and get on with things over people who complain or try to make unfunny jokes the whole time

[@Shatterfury1871]

Dorn would make a wall of bricks cry out in shame by simply looking at it. :D

[@RedPandaGod01]

Big E should have brought Magnus to help alongside Dorn, the Emperor knew Magnus was completely loyal to him, Magnus himself never really betraying the Emperor, rather just being wreckless in his attempt to warm him, even after he had accepted his mistake and punishment, only faltering in the last moment as his sons were being slaughtered and Russ was attempting to kill him against the Emperor's wishs falling for Horus's lies. Even after magnus was shattered, they never joined the heresy, however it is true that shards of magus did join chaos, they can't be held the same as whole magnus I their judgment, even then there are loyal shards of magnus as well. If the Emperor called magnus to help with his web way project, not only could it possibly speed up progress, but magnus would never end up breaking the barriers, and if they did end up broken by some other means, then magnus could sit on the throne so malcador would not have to die, and big E could go put down the rebellion himself. It was implied that the Emperor wanted Russ to bring magnus to Terra for that very reason to sit on the throne so he could go fix things, as magnus was the only other one able to, malcador excluded as he could only do so for a short time before dying. With the barriers intact however the traitor forces would have been severely weakened without demonic aid, and the additional of powerful psykers that way have been allowed to use their powers in the crisis by the Emperor and the ability for he himself to walk the battle field, the heresy would have been over quicker then if Gman was there, though if the Emperor truely foresaw it, and wished to shop it he could have summoned all 3, dorn to fortify and defend, well Gman organized and lead, and Magnus supported the Emperor sitting on the throne if need be but the combined 3 legions, with an Emperor not bound to the throne could have potentially held even if every other legion turned.

[@martinmiles2558]

I am sure I read a short story with Malcador, or was it an audio book ? where he is talking to an Astropath about them manoeuvring the Primarch's to fight each other from the start..... that would suggest to me that both Malcador and The Emperor new that a civil war would brew. Maybe it was Chaos that twisted it subtly so that the Imperium wouldn't win ? I think it was called The First Lord of the Imperium ?

[@Erebdai]

The question I had is why didn't he bring Magnus back to Terra. If the purpose was to work on the webway project then why not bring the primarch that was made to power the golden thrown? Rogal did his job, but Magnus never got the chance to do his job.

[@michaeltamke8542]

Big E should have brought Magnus as well with him to Terra. Directly prepare him and use him for the war in the webway. Keep him from doing stupid things like assaulting Terra psychicly (Magnus did that wrong!) and having one more loyal legion.

[@chaptermastermarneuscalgar6926]

Actually he'd have one more dead legion and a broken Primarch or one more traitor Legion because Tzeentch played Magnus like a fiddle. Before the Thousand Sons were reunited with their Primarch they were being wiped out by an affliction known as the Flesh Change, Magnus searched the Warp for a cure and when he'd basically given up all hope a Warp Entity (guess who) made a deal with him to save his Legion. Magnus then killed the Warp Entity or at least that's what Tzeetch wanted him to think, which was a master stroke in manipulating Magnus because it made him think he knew more about the true nature of the Warp then the Emperor and it's why Magnus broke through the wards on the Imperial Webway without a second thought. Tzeentch was also stirring the animosity between the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves, to make matter worse the Flesh Change came back with a vengeance shortly before the Space Wolves attack on Prospero .

[@TheOtherSteel]

The Emperor did not foresee the Heresy. He would have acted in an entirely different manner, undercutting Horus entirely before he could gain any momentum, by not appointing a Warmaster and having the Primarchs remain under his orders from Terra, or even working to prevent the fall of one or any of his Primarchs. However, given the Emperor's did not foresee the Heresy, he could have easily felt a premonition of an attack on Terra, without knowing where it was coming from.

[@jwb_666]

Because lemon is the mightiest fruit... or something