Why Speedrunners DON'T Use Bulbasaur in FireRed LeafGreen

[@PulseEffects]

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[@ToMentionAChannel]

L

[@Patterrz]

as a bulbasaur stan i choose to reject all of this useful and helpful information and substitute this: he is very good boy and polite

[@CertainlyNotMe]

I too stand with you

[@toninhodossantos5643]

Same

[@toekn33]

I reject your reality and substitute my own

[@generalcrashpad]

We stand with you. For the glory of the Bulb Boi!

[@noonenothing3898]

Hello pat

[@noobforever98]

I'd argue that bulbasaur's moveset isn't awful, I'd argue it's great, it's just awful for speedrunning. Like leech seed and sleep powder are incredible moves but that's not very helpful when the plan is to just one shot as much as you can

[@sharkronical]

Even in a non speedrun scenario, why chip and spam status like it's smogon when you can just spam flamethrower / surf and win without getting hit anyway

[@noobforever98]

@@sharkronical it's better for level gaps/bad matchups. Plus if you're a) going in fresh and don't know what's coming up or b) in a challenge run where you need all advantages you can get it comes in real handy. Plus sleep gives you free turns for set up that you wouldn't get without some form of status. It's just overall a safety net when a safety net is needed. You also don't have to run them if you wanted to lean toward more aggressive play, sleep and passive recover just gives you more builds and more options.

[@sharkronical]

@@noobforever98 the problem with venusaur is that you don't have that other option, since its only good stab moves are either razor leaf / giga drain, and the unreliable solar beam. And to counter the other arguments, how many times are you in that situation vs how many times do you just get hold back from an otherwise easy fight made really long?

[@noobforever98]

@@sharkronical the movepool thing matters depending on the generation. Gen 1 yeah you don't really have great options but razor leaf is decent enough, very high crit chance, and other then psychic, water and normal nothing else really gets good moves either. Gen 3 it still has some moveset issues but with access to earthquake, sludge bomb and synthesis it does have more it can do both offensively and defensively. Also keep in mind that I'm not talking about a race setting where you can take your time and plan things out. For challenges like nuzlocke and rom hacks you can both afford slower, more careful stats and get Access to other options for other Pokemon. Blastoise is mainly goated in speedruns cause it's a solid enough water type you start with and a solid movepool but in a challenge run you get other options like Vaporeon, tentacruel, Lapras, the fossils, Gyarados, starmie, Slowbro. Outside of a Speedrun it's at best replaceable and at worse outclassed. Charizard fairs better due to lack of fire types but it still can be replaced and is arguably outclassed by certain mons depending on the gen plus in Kanto fire isn't too valuable. Venusaur is the only one who is the best at its own niche. Vileplume is a straight downgrade and Weepinbell is more offensive with higher attacking stats and access to swords dance. Exeggutor is also very good but also very different to Venusaur so there are reasons to pick one or the other depending on what you need. Also on your argument on when sleep and leech seed are really better then just attacking I see your point but my counter argument is if you can just razor leaf, energy ball, or sludge bomb then just...do that? And in the less common situation when sleep would be valuable then it's the only gen 1 starter who has the tool to play with. I'll admit as much as I love leech seed it is niche and the move slot is better used for coverage or even other utility moves. In a vacuum I see how Blastoise is preferred, which is why it's so good in speedruns, but when you have to build your team for the worst it's not as valuable as Venusaur

[@sharkronical]

@@noobforever98 yeah i guess fair

[@The_BryanD]

Despite Bulbasaur's shortcomings, it's pretty cool to see that all three of the starters are in the Top 5 fastest mons for FRLG!

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

Honestly a speedrun rarely has other options than starters simply because catching any other mon means you have to spend time leveling it up, which just takes too much time usually. Jynx and Farfetch'd are a little exception as they are ingame trades and thus level faster, but still any mon other than the starter or an early route mon shouldn't perform well in a speedrun except for legendaries or other mons you get at a high level.

[@radlee13]

I'm more surprised that Bulbasaur, a mon tailor made to to help you catch other mons and give you safe gym battles with its chip and healing, is still the 5th fasted time

[@thoopsy]

Yeah that's pretty impressive considering speed is literally not its strong suit.

[@varmituofm]

It's because of how early you have to get your main in FRLG. The latest pivot is Farfetch'd in Vermillion, and it's pivoting off a spearow that you would get for the slightly slower Fearow run. Every other competitive run has their main before Misty. The exception might be the Jinx run. I can't figure out the best place to get the Poliwhirl you need to trade for the Jinx. Seems really late to wait to switch until after you have a good rod or surf.

[@Naixatloz]

@@varmituofm Yep, it's exactly this. For people who aren't used to thinking like speedrunners, look at it this way: any non-gift Pokemon takes at least a minute or two to go catch, and it's gonna be a lower level than whatever your main has been up to that point. So whatever it is, it needs to be worth the time taken for the detour, and the level difference can't be so great that you need to spend extra time grinding. There's very few Pokemon that meet those requirements, so even though Bulbasaur isn't great, it's still better than options that might be stronger on paper simply because you have it from the get-go and you've already invested time and resources into it.

[@kirbyfazendoummoonwalk9214]

because he sucks

[@Igorcastrochucre]

Because starters are most of the time, the best Pokemon you'll have access to in the early game and they grow strong as the game progresses, so if they syphon experience intended for a team of six, they can become powerhouses.

[@xelac1334]

I still think that Bulbasaur is a great choice for doing a casual playthrough of a Kanto game, especially for someone who's new to the series. By the time you get past the third gym, a lot of options for other Pokemon to catch open up and don't have to rely so much on your starter, so the fact that Venusaur drops off in usefulness doesn't matter. I don't think a Pokemon should be called bad because it struggles to solo the entire game since these games were designed under the assumption that players would use a team. If it has a bad match-up, you just... use something else.

[@PulseEffects]

I definitely agree with a good chunk of this! Pokemon is all about the choices you can make. But overall, I hope this video can resonate with some folks into trying Squirtle. Especially for the same reasons that folks might be considering Bulbasaur, cause I honestly believe Squirtle has a lot of overlooked potential cause of how many water types you can get.

[@RebelTrooperHoth]

Very big difference between a speedrun and a casual play through

[@banan9377]

It's not because you can't solo the game with it, you can, just level it up to 100 and sweep the rest of the game. The problem is that if you rely on catching other Pokémon to make up for a Pokémon's weaknesses, then all Pokemon are good and nothing is bad, so there's no point in comparing. You need to set some kind of standard to have something that's useful to talk about, and if there's "best" pokemon then there's inevitably gonna be a "worst" pokemon. Also, the thing with Bulbasaur being bad is only relation to the other starters, but just fact that he is a starter means he already becomes better than 99% of the other Pokémons.

[@JStamato]

Bulbasaur is definitely better for an ingame playthrough since you’re gonna be building a team squirtle is better if your planning on using a single Pokémon to defeat the gamr

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

@@JStamato Bulbasaur is okay for an ingame playthrough, but definitely not better than Squirtle. When Squirtle on its own is already the best mon for a playthrough, then having additional teammates doesn't magically make it bad, nor do they make Bulbasaur crazily good. They make Bulbasaur's weaknesses bearable, but it's still a mon of few strengths and lots of weaknesses, so it's definitely not better.

[@sheeplol2161]

ironic how the turtle is the fastest for clearing the game

[@christopherfleetwood5252]

Ninja turtle

[@conansglasses2645]

I feel like this is the prime example of why you can't compare a normal playthrough to a speedrun , because in a speedrun you have to conserve as much time as possible which is why squirtle is the best water type you'll encounter in the entire game and its helped by the fact that water + normal is an unresisted stab combo and it gets both blizzard and earthquake , and since in a speedrun your starter is going to be your ONLY party member, the lead that grass gets for the first third of the game becomes dwarfed by the late game which is filled with types that outright resist it , this is where Charamander takes the lead because of how amazing of an offensive type fire is However in a regular playthrough where you have ample time to catch and grind new party members, its not even a competition as Blastoise is thoroughly outclassed by Gyarados , Lapras and Vaporeon and its not even close ( what 80 offenses do to a mf ) , while in the other hand , Venusaur is by far the best Grass type in the entire kanto region save for maybe exegutor ( whose only obtainable way late into the game) , as for fire , Charizard is probably the best fire type in the entire region but it takes way too long for the type to actually become useful

[@M4x_P0w3r]

Same goes for nuzlockes. Bulbasaur makes the early game so much easier, and by the time it becomes obsolete, you already probably have all the tools necessary to continue without much issue while having had a much easier time at the beginning where you're at your weakest.

[@lolcall5295]

The problem with this is, even in a normal playthrough, why even bother with other party members? Blastoise alone is enough to clear the game. Seems pretty clear to me that blastoise is the best starter eventho it's not the best water type.

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

@@M4x_P0w3r that's not true at all. Not only does Squirtle have a much easier early game as it's littered with bug-, poison- and flying types, but simply said Squirtle simply never becomes obsolete. Sure when Bulbasaur becomes obsolete you have other mons, but by the time Squirtle becomes obsolete you're already the champ.

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

Gyarados is actually much worse than Blastoise with its horrible special attack and no physical stab moves. Sure Venusaur is not a bad grass type, but there is just no need for a grass type in kanto at all. Ground and Rock are covered by water already, most waters have exploitable secondary types and outside of se hits grass is a plain bad type in gen3. The strongest grass moves are hidden power (unobtainable without frame perfect rng manips) and razor leaf, which is weaker than bubblebeam. There just is no need to ever use a grass type in the first place, and while Blastoise does get outclassed by Vaporeon and Lapras, those are also not obtainable that early (Lapras and Exeggutor are available at the same time and Vaporeon locks you out of Jolteon).

[@M4x_P0w3r]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 The early game has your main hurdles be the first three gyms, where your options are at its most limited since most of Kanto is locked. Having super effective stab against the two first plus resisting the third is pretty valuable. Besides, there are better water types than Blastoise, mainly Starmie, Lapras, Slowbro and Gyarados.

[@Sononono]

Now imagine if the Bulbasaur line had sludge and sludge bomb on their movepool

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

Those are actually weaker than Return and Hyper Beam. What would make a huge difference though would be Dig, and it doesn't even make sense that Wartortle and Charmeleon, but not Ivysaur get it. Dig would change a lot for it and help against Koga and Blaine.

[@Sononono]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 I guess they are stronger against most of the pokemons you'll encounter since they'll resist poison but otherwise, Sludge Bomb is stronger than return due to it being STAB

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

@@Sononono yes, but Return is stronger than Sludge and Hyper Beam is stronger than Sludge Bomb, and with how much resists poison and how barely anything is weak to it, it wouldn't really change all that much honestly.

[@Sononono]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 Okay that's a fair point, lots of the enemies Venusaur clicks return/hyper beam against are poison types anyways

[@BoneBeastKimimaro]

I think it's an issue of priorities. In speedrunning you're basically locked into using a single poke, unless you can catch a much higher level poke later on because you have to take very specific pathing and don't have time for raising levels, so taking the poke with the best overall usage is best. But in casual play, Bulbasaur carries you through the first few gyms, after which you could easily have raised several other pokes to take Bulb's place afterward.

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

Every starter eadily beats the early game, it's just that Bulbasaur falling off hard is less noticeable in a casual run.

[@BoneBeastKimimaro]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 My point was that Bulbasaur falling off doesn't matter because in a casual playthrough you'd likely have more than enough pokes to replace them by the time it happens

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

@@BoneBeastKimimaro that's what I meant too, but the thing is Squirtle not just has the best overall game but also the best early game as well. Even Charmander has a very good early game if you know you can do Bill before Misty, then beat her by sheer level advantage. Charmander requires some thinking and knowing ahead but then its early game is even better than Bulbausaur's. While Charmander isn't exactly good for an inexperienced player, Squirtle totally is too. Not only does it have good matchups against all early gym leaders (Bite for Misty, Dig for Surge), Bulbasaur also horribly struggles with all the poison, flying and bug types in the beginning, which force it to rely on tackle for an absurd amount of time, so it often just struggles much more on the routes between the cities, which are an absolute breeze for the other two. So even if we rule Charmander out because it does require some strategizing, Squirtle still has the easiest early game even in a casual run AND also becomes an insane threat later on.

[@666blaziken]

I love how in between 8:10 and 8:15 your pronunciation are correct the first time and then deliberately mispronounced it the second

[@ImKoreanJeezus]

I was looking for someone to comment this lmaoo, I was so thrown off by that pronunciation

[@666blaziken]

@@ImKoreanJeezus he does this with every video to trigger people. "Are-cuh-ne-nay" for Arcanine god it's so bad it's hilarious 😂

[@carlbenz805]

its pronunciation

[@666blaziken]

@@carlbenz805 HAHA, ok I'll change it

[@gamerkingdom1442]

This just shows how DIFFERENT a SpeedRun Playthrough compared to a normal one. It’s basically a completely different game! Still, love little Bluby! Favorite OG Starter!

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

But it's not different at all actually. You just mostly skip out on beating wild pokémon and optional trainers.

[@volbla]

Wow. I now want to watch a Jynx main speedrun. Like, what the hell.

[@flowersnek1010]

It also hurts that they nerfed some of Bulbasaur's best tricks from the gen 1 games. Razor Leaf no longer has guaranteed crits, and the AI is better and won't just spam Psychic-type status moves if it has access to them, especially with the improved trainer movesets. Overall, I think Bulbasaur is still a good choice for a starter for casual playthroughs, but the way in which it's a good choice makes it really inefficient for speedruns.

[@Nyzer_]

Even in a normal run, early game Bulbasaur just hasn't ever been particularly good. From Pallet Town to Cerulean City, the grass and enemy trainers are littered with bug, poison, and flying types, dragging the pace of the battles against them to a crawl since Bulbasaur's only real counter is to Tackle them. Charmander is arguably better for Pewter Gym since it, at least, can train ridiculously easily in Viridian Forest, and Ember being a Special move just burns through Brock with little issue. Misty is definitely much harder, and doesn't have much of an alternate counter if you didn't pick up and train a Pikachu, but anyone saying that's a good reason for Bulbasaur to be the best starter doesn't seem to have done a Squirtle run. Squirtle just blasts all the way through to Cerulean with easy STAB neutral or super effective damage on everything. And if you give it Mega Kick or Mega Punch, it'll blast through Misty as well. It has access to Dig and Ice Beam before battling Surge and Erika, respectively, but even if you don't go that route, you can go into Diglett Cave and get a high level Dugtrio very easily before Surge, and the game has no shortage of flying types to take Erika out with. That is, if you didn't just raise a Kadabra. Pretty sure you can get Growlithe and Vulpix just outside Celadon, too.

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

The thing about Misty for Charmander is that she isn't required until much later actually. You only need her after the ship to get into the 3rd gym, and by that time your Charmeleon is already severely overleveled, faster than Starmie and can take it out in two hits while stomaching her water move. For a speedrun you'd even go into the cerulean city pokémon center, then use dig on the ship to teleport back once you have the hm and beat Misty with almost no time loss compared to beating her right away, but that's something you wouldn't do on a normal run.

[@Nyzer_]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 And outside of a speedrun, even if you don't want to double back to Cerulean, all you need to do is catch a Pikachu and train it alongside your Charmander. Which is something any kid who's a fan of the anime would want to do anyway, if they simply came across one in Viridian Forest. Of course, almost anything you catch along the way to Cerulean will at least only take neutral damage from Misty, unless you went with a Geodude or spent a Moon Stone on your Nido's second evolution. So anyone who catches a second Mon for the sake of getting past the dozens and dozens of bugs, birds, and bats with something that's better than TACKLE is in about the same boat as the Charmander player.

[@mjdxp5688]

Squirtle is definitely the best starter. It's a fairly average Water type, but Water is a really good type, and having a Water type early on is very beneficial. It also gets its best STAB move fairly early on in Surf, and it also gets Ice Beam for coverage.

[@MettanAtem]

At least Bulbasaur isn't as bad as Chikorita in GSC. Just from a casual playthrough it's clear Chikorita is at a type disadvantage against most Johto gyms AND all the Poison types Team Rocket uses. All that on top of the terrible movepool too.

[@sword_of_dusk]

Speaking of Chikorita, someone took it upon themselves to try and fix it for HGSS. Did a good job too. kzbin.info/www/bejne/eGGoYniobciipZY

[@TheDeepThinker-sq3iy]

Not in the liquid crystal rom hack... Chikorita is KING in that one.

[@shadowtitanx3962]

Don't forget to mention that 4/5 of the final battles in the main campaign resist Grass.

[@hussarya3380]

Bulbasaur is very good for normal playthrough, when you use full team and later you can simply use other pokemon xD Starter matchup against first two-three gyms are the most imporant, because later you get access to more pokemon then in early game. I'm not speedrunner, but I tried a solorun with Bulbasaur line and I must admit, in late game it isn't as good as it was in early game, mostly because Grass isn't a good type and there isn't a good STAB option for Venusaur - Giga Drain was only 60 BP and 5 PP, Solarbeam need one turn to charge (or Sunny Day, but it makes opponent's fire moves even stronger), Sludge Bomb is post-game TM, so... Maybe I do this wrong, but I mostly use Razor Leaf XD

[@PulseEffects]

I definitely feel like a lot of folks forget about the late game in a casual playthrough, and I feel like Blastoise provides the nice balance of a slightly harder early game, solid mid game, and amazing late game! Gen 3 lends so well to moves like Surf, Bite, and Blizzard. Plus your Rival is much easier to handle progressively over time compared to the very brutal Charizard you'll be facing down the line.

[@conansglasses2645]

​@@PulseEffects the reason why squirtle is bad for a regular non speedrun playthrough , is because of the crapton of water types avaible to you that far surpass it , Lapras has more bulk and a guaranteed ice beam and vaporeon is all around superior But true , for a speedrun its def the best

[@cmck362]

@@conansglasses2645 Then just box it when you get to those other water types.... That applies to all starters. Why would you want a grass or fire type late game? You wouldn't? Why would you settle for blastoise when you can trade up? You wouldn't. Squirtle is good because it trivializes _all_ of the early game; not just the gyms. This gives you time to set up your team.

[@PulseEffects]

@Conans' glasses but not picking Squirtle makes your mid to late game worse than when you pick Bulbasaur. Giving your Rival a much worse team than what Blastoise has to deal with. Even with all the water types available, I'd rather use Oddish/Bellsprout because of how ridiculous pokemon like his Charizard get.

[@indiradevi8136]

@@PulseEffects The biggest issue with picking squirtle is your rival has bulbasaur. That mon is soo annoying to fight. I would argue your rival's ivysaur is harder to beat than charmeleon can ever be.

[@TrappyJenkins]

"Its so bad, its only in the top 5" "but arent there like 150+ pokemon making being in the top 5 very good?"

[@dungeonpastor]

Yeah, but in speedrunning only the best route matters.

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

But any mon that you won't get in the early game is obviously not usable for a speedrun, it's not like you can get stuff like Mewtwo early on. There's only so many pokémon you can get early on, and honestly most mons you catch are unplayable for a speedrun, because yeah getting a level 10 mon in a level 20+ area means spending like 20 minutes to levelgrind it, which makes it unviable for speedruns. So yeah, there's more like 15 mons that can realistically speedrun, and the starters usually have the best position due to being always high level by default. Not being the third best as a starter is kinda bad.

[@jonnymohawk]

8:13 bro don't do "jenjar" dirty like that.

[@ThirtyDimensionedMissile]

The title confused me but I understand now why bulbasaur is worse.

[@evagrimm]

Jenjar - the purposeful mispronunciations are always the best🤣🤣

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

Another crazy part about Venusaur is that most of its moves (Return, Hyper Beam and Mimic) are moves that almost every mon in the game gets. Its movepool is so bad it has to essentially use generic moves and strats that every other mon could use, and mostly relies on the fact that being a starter it usually is on a much higher level than other mons that could pull off the same strategy.

[@certainempathetic]

Fair, Leech Seed isn't exactly the best move for speedruns, even if it's pretty awesome in any other scenario

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

Tbf it's not all that good in the story in general. In the early game it will often just drain one or two hp per turn, and even later on it doesn't do enough to help against the nukes from Sabrina and Blaine, as well as most of the e4. Most of the time Leech Seed will only win you battles where you're already in an advantage anyways and doesn't help you out otherwise. It's not like competitive where you can just dedicate your set to be insanely bulky and stall everything with Leech Seed.

[@crimsonflame1347]

Have to love the use of Mass Effect music! :)

[@joaobrito2653]

bulbasaur is for sure the best for a nuzlocke, but its interesting how speedruns care about totally different things

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

Even there Squirtle > Charmander > Bulbasaur is true. Just consider a speedrun as a "no catches no leveling no saving permadeath" run, which is a lot more restrictive than a nutzlocke. If squirtle performs best under these restrictions, then the comparably much less restrictive nutzlocke doesn't change much.

[@joaobrito2653]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 speedrun focuses on speed. a nuzlocke doesnt. while you want to avoid deaths in a speedrun, you also want to beat the game as fast as possible. in a nuzlocke your only goal is to beat the game regardless of speed. bulbasaur has the best matchups against the early game gyms, which is where encounters matter most since you have less encounters. you get a huge abundance of water types in kanto that do a similar job to blastoise later on

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

@@joaobrito2653 exactly, and because of the speed focus a speedrun is exactly like a nuzlocke with the additional restrictions of being unable to train and use other mons for battles. The reason why Squirtle is chosen in such a harsh environment is because Squirtle: - has the best matchups in the entire game, period, both in the early and the later game - solos the entire game without needing to train a single time and - never relies on any additional team member to battle. The thing is, all three of those hold true for a nuzlocke too obviously. You could play a Nuzlocke where you start with Squirtle and then never use another mon for battles or train a single time and you'd still succeed, something you obviously can't do with Bulbasaur. With Squirtle any training or other team members are optional, with Bulbasaur they're neccessary. The fact that nuzlockes are much more forgiving means you can catch other mons and train to patch up Bulbasaur's numerous weaknesses, but a mon with no weaknesses is obviously better than a mon with several weaknesses that need to be patched up and nothing gained in return.

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

​@@joaobrito2653on top of that did you know that Squirtle is so brutally effective in Kanto, on top of never training and never needing another mon you also never need to heal in a regular pokécenter with it? That's right, Squirtle speedruns are done without ever needing to heal in regular pokécenters a single time. So you have a starter that solos everything without training or regular pokécenters. It simply doesn't get better than this, Bulbasaur just doesn't remotely compare, whether in a speedrun, a nuzlocke or any other type of run. How is any starter supposed to be better than "solos the entire game with no training and no pokécenters"? Even if you need a single visit to the pokécenter in the early game, you're already performing worse than Squirtle. And don't forget the level grind Bulbasaur needs for Vine Whip.

[@joaobrito2653]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 the optimizations you are talking about are all regarding speed. your whole argument is based on not needing to grind, which just isnt what a nuzlocke is about. you can sweep the game with most pokemon if you use x items. i didnt say squirtle is bad, i just said that there are an abundance of water types that do what blastoise does in kanto( you can catch and actually grind them up to the right level since its not a speedrun). venusaur resists each of the first 4 gyms and can sweep all of them with much lower risk. speedruns focus on speed, and often times the best strategy for a speedrun is one where there is a lot of RNG involved with IV's and natures and even avoiding crits in certain scenarios. like i said earlier, the optimal way to play a nuzlocke is often not the most fun since it requires a lot of grinding and playing around crits. venusaur has the best defensive type matchup against the kanto gyms in the early and mid portions of the game, and the weaknesses it has are very easily covered by the abundance of water and flying types in the region

[@pitdarkangel2961]

Our little lettuce boy may be the slowest starter for a speedrun, but getting Hyper Beam also makes him the most metal.

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

But every fully evolved mon in the game gets hyper beam

[@pitdarkangel2961]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 I mean getting it in a speedrun

[@10amprickfight]

i want to hug the Bulbasaur from the thumbnail

[@Sixelona]

I'm sure Bulbasaur would appreciate your hug 10AM dick fight.

[@gabe_0364]

FINALLY someone spoke my piece! Bulba is my fav to THIS DAY because of that sweet sweet begining of Kanto. but man does it FAIL COMPLETLY in the elite 4. Everytime I wished to win the elite four, I had to bail on my Venussaur for something better suited

[@feraligatriscool5509]

It sad that people often forget that venasaur can counter erika ,is neutral to koga and Giovanni and resist bruno and kinda handle lorelai and agatha, the only weaknesses of venasaur are sabrina and blain

[@volcanicz6739]

Not rly counter erika as it doesn't get an offensive move until much later on

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

Venusaur's weaknesses are Erika (resists grass), Koga (resists grass), Sabrina, Blaine, Agatha, Lance and the rival. Meanwhile Blastoise's weaknesses are not existing (Bite for Misty, Dig for Surge and the ice move of choice for Erika beat all potential roadblocks). Venusaur is mediocre for Kanto while the other two are just much better.

[@Naixatloz]

It's not just about what Venusaur is weak to, but also what resists its moveset.

[@feraligatriscool5509]

After seeing it again, yeah blastois is better because when you reach serge(forget how to write his name) you already have enough counters to him like geodude or dugtrio+ blastois moveset is better +pure water is better than grass+poisen

[@Robochuck]

Thank you! That question was bugging me. what a thorough and well laid out explanation!

[@EpixClodz]

7:43 *ah yes, LAN*

[@Savariable]

6:26 yes, venusaur

[@PulseEffects]

Omfg... How did I miss that mistake LOL

[@DRAGONZORD]

my man getting a sponsor big W

[@L4NkYb]

Holy crap commentary about these games from somebody who appears to have actually played them? I never thought it possible

[@cmck362]

Bulbasaur sucks in casual play too. It's good against the first two gyms, but awful against all the bug, flying, and poison types you face up until misty. Vine whip is 35 BP and 10 PP. Both ember and water gun are stronger and have more uses. Squirtle has a smooth early game against both the gyms and the trainers which is when you need your starter the most. After that you either get op tms like body slam, ice beam, dig, and surf OR you round out your team so you don't need your starter.

[@xsellepoch9954]

As a wise man once said, “Grass is ass”

[@missfazbear8810]

8:12 J e n j a r

[@SpectreXS]

Grass starters doing what they do best: be mid-quality Normal Type Attackers.

[@randomperson10101]

I mean, the title and intro are a bit at odds lol. For clearing the game, yes, Bulbasaur is great. That's cause clearing the game doesn't inherently imply speedrunning or going hardcore. Cause casually, taking time for a little extra grinding, or hunting for some other team members doesn't really matter. Cause casually, people don't care about what their ultimate playtime looks like. XD Not to mention, the "bad" moves, like the powders and leech seed, are actually rather fun and useful in casual playthroughs. That aside though, yes, it isn't great for speedrunning though that's largely due to stiff competition rather than it being inherently bad. Considering it ranks 5th in the world kinda shows that imo. The fact it ranks so high, despite it's typing and movepool hindering it int his setting is honestly impressive more than anything to me.

[@PulseEffects]

I definitely see where Bulbasaur users are coming from wanting a slower/safer playing style. But I would argue that Blastoise provides this more than Venusaur. Blastoise movepool is very favored for Special Attacking in Gen 3 with moves like Surf, Blizzard, and Bite, on top of the Rival Teams being progressively easier to handle throughout the entire game compared to Venusaur. Even if there are a ton of other water Pokemon you can snag during a playthrough, I still think Blastoise should be considered more for these reasons! It goes really well with Flying and Ground Type Pokemon at your side, which can almost be guaranteed even in a Nuzlocke!

[@randomperson10101]

@@PulseEffects Right, but that kinda goes back to the, Bulbasaur having stiff competition thing. It's just got real tough competition, rather than it being bad. Casually, it's a great mon to play around with. Things like it's status moves, and early evo are fun and exciting casually. In a hardcore setting like speedrunning though, it never really had a chance keeping up though. It's competition is the top 2 spots after all. That's why I was more surprised it landed in 5th and not lower.

[@indiradevi8136]

@@PulseEffects the main reason why people like bulba better is cause it's arguably the best grass mon in game thing with eggy which is available much later. Comparing Blastoise to other waters it's the worst aside from dewgong and maybe poliwrath.

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

​@@randomperson10101 the thing is, in a speedrun any non starter is usually unviable almost by default. You get your starter at a comparably high level, and any new mon would need to take a break and grind for levels, a grind it has to make up for later. In essence there's only about 10-15 mons that could realistically speedrun because you get them early on, and amongst them the starter has the best chances by default, so yeah having two non starters before it is actually pretty bad.

[@toblerone1729]

I hear Shiso's theme from One Step From Eden in the background... _Now that, is good taste_

[@_Sinduss]

Going to point out that bulbasaur is much better in gen 1 compared to gen 3 due to auto crit razor leaf, it taking a turn to wake up and "good" AI.

[@lucfal5978]

Love Bulbasaur in Gen 1, but even there it’s outclassed by Blastoise in terms of speedrunning. Still think the Bulbasaur line is more useful in Nuzlockes more often than not tho.

[@_Sinduss]

@@lucfal5978 yes definitely blastoise is better for speed running gen 1 though the king (nidoking) is still optimal. Just wanted to point out that gen1 and gen3 bulbasaur are very different beasts.

[@TheJwizard00]

It also gets Swords Dance and Body Slam in gen 1. That in itself is great, but add the badge boost glitch in gen 1 and it's even better. Viktreebell, which is basically Venusaur with a better attack and speed stat, is the best solo speed runner in gen 1.

[@NiGHTSnoob]

Bulbasaur also has to wait until level 13 to get Vine Whip though which makes the early game an absolute pain.

[@_Sinduss]

@@NiGHTSnoob it's not as annoying as you might think. If you are using bulbasaur it should hit 13 before mt moon. It only needs to be level 7 to beat Brock consistently due to leech seed and growl. In a minimum battles no items runs it's the only starter that works as squirtle needs a load of potions to beat Brock's geodude at level 7 and then gains too much exp leveling straight to 9 and not learning bubble due to gen 1.

[@MurphaLurph13]

Bulbasaur is cute af and I love throwing leech seed at stuff, that's all I need for Bulbasaur to be my favorite Kanto starter. But I'm no speedrunner, so I accept your otherwise slanderous statements as true and valid. At least we can all agree in the end that the entire Chikorita line is an insult to grass starters as a whole!

[@PulseEffects]

LMAO agreed! I'm also not a fan of the Grass Pear Pokemon. 😂

[@d4ws125]

Love that Mass Effect OST

[@Xarca]

The mass effect music worked weirdly well for this I loved it.

[@d4ws125]

@@Xarca right?

[@whatamidoinghere9775]

9:50 doesn't ice not resist anything besides itself? Why wouldn't giga drain be super effective against lapras?

[@Chadegon1693]

Ice is the worst defensive type. It only resist itself. Lapras is ice/water to ice doesnt cancel out waters grass weakness

[@whatamidoinghere9775]

@Lord of Keks that's what I'm saying, lapras would still be weak to grass so why did they need to swap to magikarp?

[@owenaspinall2046]

The Lapras is owned by the player, not the opponent

[@PulseEffects]

Because the AI focuses on the singular Water type of Magikarp. The Rock type weakness versus Rhydon + on top of the favorable type matchup against Rhydon forces Rhydon to be brought out instead. It's a very weird AI quirk.

[@Zelinkokitsune]

It's running of Bulbasaur's Special Attack stat and since they're minmaxing for attack stat the SpA stat is forgotten. Actually all Grass attacks are Special due to this being before the Physical/Special Split

[@derekfoxwit3058]

At least Bulbasaur is still babey

[@stumpedtroper]

Finally someone mentioned my favorite gym leader, Rock Tunnel

[@TheDeathmail]

To be fair, most people aren't speed runners. Bulbasaur makes the game easier because you have way more Pokemon options after it. Speed running isn't about easiest way, it's about fastest way.... So for most people, Bulbasaur is the best starter....

[@PulseEffects]

But speedrunning can also arguably showcase some of the easiest way to get through threats. And the way that Squirtle balances the entire game with easier Rival Teams, better early/mid/late matchups, and way more reliable moves (No 75% Powder moves + better offensive sets) is arguably better for even a casual setting. Even if you get rid of them down the line, I think there's some real value in giving your Rival a worse team instead of the team makeup you get from Bulbasaur. Charizard especially is such a massive threat down the line.

[@CentralProcessingUnitCore]

When u realize u can use bulbasaur's leech seed to recover some hp from the ke4: well, fuck

[@sain223]

Bulbasaur steamrolls the first 3 gyms and Giovanni the last gym. Also you get a Eevee and Lapras for free to cover Bulbasaurs weaknesses.

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

Squirtle steamrolls every single gym and the e4 with its coverage of ice, ground and dark. Charmander covers almost the entire game thanks to its coverage of fire, ground and rock. Bulbasaur fails against half the game, and the fact that you need Eevee and Lapras to help it is a testament to its weakness, not its strength. It's the worst starter for Kanto by far.

[@thoopsy]

I was all for info about how Bulbasaur isn't optimal, but don't come in here and be mean and say people aren't right for liking Bulbasaur in a regular playthrough. Sleep powder to help you catch Pokemon for your Pokedex! Health draining moves that give you longevity! It's really good for normal play. One size does not fit all but you do not have to start off in such a mean tone. I promised myself I'd never comment on your videos until I found one where I didn't notice the comment boosting mispronunciation, but gosh dang it I've broken the rule.

[@PulseEffects]

Not once did I state people aren't right for liking Bulbasaur, people can like what they want. The entire point of this video is to bring fourth the problems Bulbasaur faces in all settings that I have time to cover with an emphasis on Speedrunning, while bringing up the points that all Bulbasaur users I've ever talked to swear by, and are not all that should be considered when picking a starter. If anyone wants to pick Bulbasaur go for it! Pokemon is about the adventure, their choices, and the friends you make along the way. I'd be an idiot if my intention were to take that away from anyone. But much like Bulbasaur users, I will also swear by Squirtle being the best in all settings! Even though Kanto has a lot of Water Types available in the region for Nuzlockes and Casual Playthroughs, picking Squirtle brings a much easier balance to those playthroughs going from the early to late game. Especially the mid to late game where your Rival keeps getting stronger, and you'll have to deal with a nastier team from him than you would by picking Squirtle.

[@zombielynx21]

0001 in the Pokedex, 0001 in my heart.

[@sagacious03]

Okay analysis video! Thanks for uploading!

[@speckielishouspie8942]

I think new categories should be made for Pokemon speedrunning, Starter Specific Categories (i.e Bulbasaur for Kanto runs or Snivy for Unova runs etc.) that way you can keep the general speedrun category records while also having flexible strategies for say Chimchar speedruns in Platinum i personally don't speedrun but i enjoy hearing about strategies, categories and record history

[@PulseEffects]

Those actually do exist! They're typically categorized under the category extension sections of speedrun.com/pokemon!

[@pac-man-world-2]

This feels like a personal attack on Bulbasaur fans lmfao

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

It really isn't, but I do feel some (not all, really just a group) Bulbasaur fans have really taken the idea that Bulbasaur is the starter for Kanto to heart, so when it's factually explained how Bulbasaur is actually the worst starter for Kanto, it might attack something they really believed in, which might feel like a personal attack. But you can like a mon even if it's not particularly good in a gameplay run.

[@pac-man-world-2]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 Oh no I just mean in some of the wording, lol. Not a big deal, I just think it's kinda funny if anything.

[@ManuR-l4m]

With Dragons often being a lategame hurdle ice coverage is just the biggest advantage for the Water starter in most games. But not only that, it also takes care of birds and your weakness, grass. And what should Venusaur do there? Poison and Leech Seed them? Grass just isnt made for speedruns.

[@c.m.9369]

To be fair: I don‘t know anybody who says the Bulbasaur is the best for SPEEDRUNNING. It‘s the best choice for a casual playthrough, because yeah: it clears the first few gyms really easily. What about the rest of the game? Well, the further into the game you get, the more likely you are to have a more and more balanced team. You can‘t get much of a balanced team against Brock or Misty, so your starter will be very important there. As a casual player. Obviously, none of this applies to speedrunners ;-)

[@PulseEffects]

You'd be surprised how many folks apply casual knowledge to speedruns. But it's not their fault, that's what I'm here to help provide info for! 😂

[@UnuUO]

i don’t even think it’s the best choice for a casual playthrough because if you don’t plan on using any of the mons on the first few routes then it takes ages to get through the first few sections of the game where there’s a bunch of bug/poison/flying types and all you have to hit them is tackle. the other starters get much better moves for the early game outside of the gym leaders and even let you pick up an early poison type like nidoran without having to suffer type redundancy on your team. grass is just really really bad in kanto outside of exeggutor

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

Squirtle has the best early game though, AND it doesn't fall off in the later game.

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Bulbasaur needs a 110 base power move to be good. The best grass type starter for ingame use of all time. Please clap.

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

The best move for Bulbasaur would just be dig, and it makes no sense why Bulbasaur, as the only starter in the game, doesn't get it. Dig could easily beat through the myriad of poison types in the middle of the game, including Koga, as well as fire types, beating Blaine too. With Rock Slide on top, which again a Dinosaur should be able to use, the problematic ground immunities in the late game like Charizard or Dragonite could be covered too.

[@yorecf9641]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 Dig wouldn't help much against Koga in FRLG because 3/4 of his Pokémon have Levitate. The fourth is a Muk who will probably spam Minimize.

[@lanceams483]

Played through LG my first time last week and was frustrated using bulbasaur. The best you can do is give it TMs to make it better, which sucks for every other party member that could use them. Still was a good member, but definitely not the mvp in the end.

[@PanzerSparrow]

The thumbnail cost me pain

[@gwammeh]

I mean, while you’re entirely correct about Bulbasaur not being a good Pokémon in the context of speedruns, I strongly disagree that the hypothetical Bulbasaur-stans from the intro are *wrong*. Because for a *casual* playthrough Bulbasaur is an entirely valid choice, and for a first-timer whose knowledge begins and ends with “Monster goes in ball”, Bulbasaur is a great way to learn how status moves can be used to facilitate monster going into ball.

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

For a casual playthrough everything is a valid choice though, and that still doesn't make it very good. It is very uncomplicated to use, compared to Charmander for example, that one is true at least.

[@transfoogel3725]

My man called gengar "Jenjar"

[@IronWolf123]

Can you do a video on speedrunning Pokemon Mystery Dungeon?

[@PulseEffects]

I can certainly look into it!

[@LonesomeDevil]

I mean... your argument was for Gen 3, which is admitedly Bulbasaur's worst generation in comparison to the other starters. Heck, Gen 3 was the only Generation were Charizard managed to become OU in Smogon Singles without Game Freak injecting it with regional gimmick relevancy (poor thing did need at least one big run before Game Freak smashed it to the hospital with tiny pointy rocks), and Blastoise had a great niche thanks to being one of the very few Pokémon learning Rapid Spin. So yeah, I'm a huge Bulbasaur stan, but I'm definitely not gonna argue against that. Venusaur was still the most consistent in overall viability of the trio, though. I'm sure if someone hacked a Bulbasaur as a starter in the newer games, it could do very well.

[@PulseEffects]

I'd still argue my case for Gen 1, Gen 3, Gen 6, and Gen 7 where Bulbasaur can be acquired in a speedrun/playthrough of the story without trading it in. The Grass typing and Movepool is what holds it back soooo hard throughout the story, but it at least does get better as you get to later generations of Pokemon. Competitively however, Bulbasaur is amazing and I will not understate that!

[@LonesomeDevil]

@@PulseEffects Isn't Bulbasaur picked for at least one Gen 1 glitched speedrun category or did that change? Sure, it wasn't picked because of its qualities, but moreso because it made pulling off the necessary glitch easier, but I'd still argue that makes it more useful than Charmander. :P

[@Kekistani_Insurgent]

Ah yes, Jenjar, Agatha’s best Pokémon

[@christiancastillo-tamayo495]

Bro said “Jenjar” 💀

[@Finwolf29]

THE SOR4 MUSIC IN THE BACKGROUND IS THE BEST

[@SparkstarScope]

Based One Step From Eden music.

[@videopar9750]

I didn't know Venusaur learns blizzard in Gen 3, and also looks like Blastoise

[@Mr.Tw1sty]

Scarlet forest makes me ascend into a higher realm good grief

[@masterjoda999]

Bulbasaur is however the best starter for being an asshole and setting up things like leech seed and powders

[@arturolopez9254]

Where can I find the list for each pokemon time?

[@PulseEffects]

This link covers FireRed/LeafGreen! www.speedrun.com/pkmnfrlgext?h=Alt_Main_Pokes-Charizard&x=9d8o81w2-wlewjgxl.mln948oq

[@EspressoCatPlays]

Any way of making Bulbasaur faster route? Move tutor or something like that..

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

While it wouldn't make it the fastest, learning Dig, Rock Slide and an early Sludge Bomb would at least help against Surge, Erika, Blaine, Lance and the rival's Charizard. A move like Psybeam on top would take care of Team Rocket, Koga, the Pokémon Tower and Agatha. It's mostly its awful movepool that holds it back so much.

[@LoudWaffle]

People say Bulbasaur is the best and point to the first three gyms because that's when the availability of other mons to fill out your team is at its lowest. So the fact that Bulbasaur has the easiest time carrying you through the early game makes it stand out. Obviously they're not talking about a speedrunning context where one mon is relied on to carry you through the entire game in the fastest real time.

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

But Squirtle even has the best early game too. Even if we neglect that it gets bubble much earlier than Bulbasaur gets Vine Whip (and has to neddlessly bash bug types), most of the early game is filled with bug, poison and flying types and with Bite and Dig Wartortle easily takes out Misty and Surge even better than Ivysaur does.

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Plus, picking Squirtle means Blue is stuck with the turd that is Venusaur, while picking Bulbasaur means you need to answer Charizard, who is notably more threatening than Arcinine

[@skeetermania3202]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 This is certainly not true with Surge (at least if you care about consistency).

[@PotatoVariety]

Bulbasaur is decently ok for the first 3 gyms... Then, he has a completely miserable time. He suffers against every single gym after the 3rd, is miserable against the elite AND the champion.

[@sain223]

The first 3 gyms and Giovanni the last gym so half of the gyms Bulbasaur is good against. The other 4 gyms you find Pokemon that can deal with them.

[@KaoruMzk]

What about sleep powder? I don't speedrun Gen III so I'm not familiar with the nuances of each run, but wouldn't that help with setup? Or is it just too slow to use?

[@PulseEffects]

Typically with a speedrun, a good offense is a better defense, and Sleep Powder only really slows down that potential in most cases.

[@albertonishiyama1980]

Sleep Powder / Sludge / Leach Seed are all quite worthless on speedruns, because if you need 4 turns against a trainer that other mon can hit kill turn1 you're already 1min or more behind the race. They become way better on No Deaths / No Overleveling challenges (so... basically Nuzlockes and minimal battles) since they give a much needed consistency for Sweeps tatics.

[@zjanez2868]

thats kinda the problem the main advantages bulbasaurs line has is leech seed chip and healing and status support. something you dont really need in a speedrun

[@mickgorro]

Jenjar? Are you emulating FlygonHG :)?

[@minfamous5841]

I picked bulbasaur once and I was like this shit is HORRIBLE

[@mikazukimikazuki8025]

What's the name of the song that plays at the beggining of the vid? It sounds oddly familiar

[@pantherwarrior1]

Strange Sunset (Theme of Guile & Allen) from Street Fighter EX Plus

[@mikazukimikazuki8025]

@@pantherwarrior1 Thanks friend

[@latioshunter]

At least its not gen 2, where poor Chikorita is done dirty with bug and flying as the first 2 gyms...and normal is the third.

[@joncook7510]

Whats the music at 1:00

[@STDynamite8008]

Rt 3 and Mt moon is brutal for bulbasaur with all the poison types. Bugs and zubats lol

[@mysterymitry]

I can't fully watch the video at the moment due to it buffering on my end (apparently even decent internet can be shitternet), but while I do love Bulbasaur and have used it casually in FRLG for the same reasons covered in the video portions I could watch, I understand why it's definitely not the best for the speedrun in particular.

[@kit6024]

Did Shen set you up to this?

[@yuumijungle548]

this is so true lol, there are so many casual lets player who do top 10s and stuff and they always claim that bulbasaur is the best starter because it has "a good matchup" against almost every single gym leader, not understanding that type matchup isnt everything and movepool (and stats) matters alot more than type match up.

[@InspecteurMoustique]

What's the song at 0:15 please? Music fantastic!

[@rillakumaaa]

Scarlet Forest - Toby Fox

[@InspecteurMoustique]

@@rillakumaaa Thanks !

[@flameacegaming]

That's why I only use Charmander. (He's Fire, and "the worst (hardest) starter")

[@kirbydude667]

“Making Bulbasaur an awful Pokémon for speedrunning.” *Bulbasaur is 5th fastest*

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

Considering it is a starter and two non starters are faster than it that is pretty awful.

[@MrGermanpiano]

What is the name of the song you can hear at aroun 1:00?

[@InspecteurMoustique]

sounds like Mother 3 or Dragon quest... Great song! I need it too please

[@InspecteurMoustique]

Not Mother 3 but Deltarune : Scarlet Forest ! Close :D

[@fractalisomega9517]

The issue with Bulbasaur is that it's role is easily replaced by other G1 pokemon such as Bellsprout and Oddish as Grass/Poison types

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

Even then why would you use a grass type in the first place? Water covers rock and grass, and other waters can be covered much better with electric types (or using your own water mon's neutral moves).

[@fractalisomega9517]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 Honestly if you could GET a Bellsprout or Oddish before the first Gym it'd be a game changer since you can blow by the first and second gym, then put your focus into raising your starter afterwards while keeping the Grass for HM Cut

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

@@fractalisomega9517 you can already blow through these with your starter though. Especially Squirtle easily covers both of them with no issue, and while Charmander needs Metal Claw for Brock and Mega Kick for Misty, they still aren't really that big of a roadblock.

[@fractalisomega9517]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 While true I can see it valuable for Charmander since Onix and Geodude both have massive defense and Charmander is mostly a special attacker... having something with STAB 4x damage is better than Metal Claw Bellsprout and Oddish also start with Grass moves... in their pre-level 10 learnset And with both Absorb and Vine whip being special they shred Brock's team with no investment at all

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

@@fractalisomega9517 yes that's true, but honestly with Ember Charmander easily mows through Viridian forest, reaches level 13 quickly and then beats Brock's pokémon in two hits. Oddish and Bellsprout would be even faster, that's true, but the exp from Brock helps Charmander be a bit faster too, so it really wouldn't save all that much.

[@lemonscaled4274]

I'm going insane, can anyone tell me what song is playing in the background?

[@W-EYE.O]

So true, I’m doing firered and bulbasaur SUCKS. It’s good and all, but goddamn I don’t want to use it again. I’m not resetting though because I caught my first shiny ever.

[@D_olingo]

Seed bullet and razor leaf have left the chat

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

They really should, for some reason all grass moves are just so much weaker than the others. Razor Leaf has 55 bp after all, and between Giga Drain's low PP at similar power and Solar Beams awful charge turn it's still the best grass move in the game, while Fire and Water have the choice between their 95 bp and 120 bp move.

[@Breegullbeak]

I'd argue most grass types have awful movesets.

[@giacomobongrazio]

But the real quesiton is How in the hell is Farfetch'd 6th? 😁😁

[@nathanielberele9174]

Trade EXP

[@DeitySkullKid]

Well, Bulbasaur is the best for early game, which is the most important for a nuzlocke, you're gonna have a lot more options and encounters later in the game, so it's not necessary for you to crutch on the starter anymore.

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

In the early game Squirtle has it much much easier too. Not only can it nail all three early gym leaders with a super effective move, but most of the early game is grass, poison and bug, which means more surviving opponents. Squirtle easily stomps the entire game, both in the early game and the rest, and if your starter alone can potentially stomp the entire game with no training neccessary, you don't even need to worry about other encounters, which is obviously the best for a nutzlocke.

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

Squirtle has a better early game, though, up until Surge, where you should just catch a Diglett either way. Guaranteed even in a Nuzlocke

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

@@aprinnyonbreak1290 you don't even need that since you get Dig before the gym. Granted it's a bit risky as Shock Wave could land a critical hit, but speedrunners already beat Surge with a level 27 Wartortle, so being potentially higher leveled makes this even easier.

[@aprinnyonbreak1290]

@@nicolaistuhlmuller8718 Yeah but that's your Dig TM. You could instead save it for later when you really need it (never use it), and use a Diglett you get anyways.

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

@@aprinnyonbreak1290 yeah, Dig is unique, but really not all that good especially with Earthquake later on. Diglett also easily beats Surge, but it does need a bit of extra training so it can take Raichu's quick attacks.

[@beavercontrol1743]

bro said jenjar

[@xandyw1381]

I wonder if this is at all different in the originals?

[@dungeonpastor]

It's very very different. The entire ranking is different.

[@nicolaistuhlmuller8718]

In the originals X Accuracy + OHKO moves exist, which make Nidoking the best and Squirtle only the second best.

[@GeetaChakma-l9u]

Bro 8:13 you said ginger

[@veghesther3204]

I actually LOVE Bulbasaur in every game in Gen 2 its still useful and Chikorita is pure CRAP.