Why the 308 Winchester Thrived while the 358 died. HD 1080p

One brother thrived, the other died. Why these two creations from the 50's travelled a divergent path.

[@ironDsteele]

I have a BLR in .358 WIn and I wouldn't trade it for any .308.

[@jamesyoder5147]

I have a 358 Winchester, love that gun. But I think your comparison is fair, at distance the 308 is a better choice. Fortunately we can own more than 1 rifle, so if I am shooting past 200 yards I will reach for my 30-06. But here in our Eastern deer woods where 80 yards is about as far as I can shoot, I expect the 358 will be perfect. One other thing that I have found is that the 358 is a great cast bullet shooter. I loaded up some 160 grain cast bullets under a light charge of unique and it shoots ~1600 fps, and out to 50 yards as a very accurate bullet. No recoil, fairly quiet, and just a joy to shoot. For some reason I still enjoy shooting my 358 Winchester more than any other gun I own.

[@albertaoutdoors9220]

A 358 shooting 200 grains plus from a lever is a great brush gun. Not to say it shoots through brush but it handles well and is very effective with tons of knock down effect at those shorter ranges.

[@markhirstwood4190]

I get your point but at least one article I read said that most people kind of dismiss the.358 Winchester as just that, 'a brush gun', when it's more. @@albertaoutdoors9220

[@chriswood4461]

Excellent analysis. What I really appreciate is the honest assessment of an average rifle's accuracy. So many people will brag that their rifle shoots better than 1 M.O.A all day long. Some years ago when I was in the trade I had one customer tell me that every one of his 10 hunting rifles shot better than an inch at a 100 yards. I knew at the time that it was bull crap but I wasn't allowed to express my opinion to the customer. Only one of my rifles will consistently shoot inside an inch and then only if I've stayed away from coffee that day.

[@north61]

If you play with bedding and loads most modern guns come close and many make it. As you say though not all, or even most! I once owned a Savage 99 in 284 that made it but only when fed anemic loads with RL15 that only made 308 level ballistics. One reason I like my Forbes 24B in 30-06 is it makes 0.8" groups with very fast loads. There is a difference between getting a really good 3 shot group on occasion and pretending that is the rifle's standard and having a rifle that consistently nails sub moa. Tikka's seem to often make the cut and we own 3 of them that do this one my son's 243 might even be that rare 1/2 MOA factory gun! It's actually a better shooter than my Fierce 300 Win Mag.

[@chriswood4461]

@@north61 I have owned three Tikka T3's over the years and they have all shot to their accuracy guarantee or better. One was a heavy-barrelled .308 which I bought to teach myself handloading. Unfortunately the damned thing shot everything I fed it too well. Either I was a natural at handloading (which I am not) or the rifle was a poor choice for the task. The one I have now which has been heavily modified into a pseudo-scout is the on with which I shoot the best.

[@davidgendron1953]

Keep those comparison videos coming, they are great info!!

[@cw2a]

Growing up hunting for me, I was surrounded by 308 Win. My father, three uncles, two cousins, 5 second cousins and two "grand uncles"! Only my grand father had a 8mm & 30/06 & one single cousin used a 35 Rem Marlin. That Marlin stuck in my head. This was in about 1974. A few tears later when I bought my own first "deer rifle" was a Browning 358 Win. Hands down, repeated side by side dozens of times the 358 dumped deer where the 308 did NOT. BUT, you know as well as any experienced hunter its WHERE FAR MORE THEN WITH WHAT, that determines DRT shots. I used mostly one single bullet. The Hornady 200g spitzer. (This is long before the common "ballistic tips" of today) We almost NEVER shot past 200 yards. Also only speaking White tailed deer. Today we have much more bullet selection in .358 then in those days. I would not and do not ever feel wanting more with a 358 if it was all I had. Not may could make a strong argument of the 30/06 as a one gun guy. But Id go against a 308 with todays fodder (my handloads) with my 358.

[@north61]

Can't argue with experience! My average shots on caribou was about 175 yards so I'd lost a lot of speed.

[@jamespugh]

Totally agree cw . 35cal hard beat on game inside of 100 yards

[@twonets]

My fist 358 was payment for a job I did for a friend, it sat in my safe for 10 years. I started using it after watching your channel , jumped on the bandwagon and got 2 more. Funny , my latest project is a 700 Rem in left hand with a trigger tech trigger and a B&C stock in 308.

[@north61]

Some people squeeze more juice from the 358 going to 180 and 200 higher b.c bullets at elevated velocities. My friend Mike Manzo uses the 200 TTSX with good results at longer ranges.

[@wasachevyguy]

Awesome video!! I’m going to be shooting a 200 grain Hornady bullet from my new Browning BLR in 358 Winchester with open sights. Hoping to get my moose with it this fall!

[@siegehammer63]

I've got the m99 lightweight with detachable mags in .243, similar groups. Really sweet little gun.

[@mountainsstreams2133]

Great review! Thanks for sharing

[@jamesmooney5348]

Enjoyed the video

[@wendellbell6164]

Interesting video. Thank you

[@jimbojimson]

Wish I could use .308, .30-06, or 8mm Mauser because I already own several of those. Iowa is finally allowing us to use bottleneck cartridges, but for whatever reason they have to be between .35 and .50 caliber.

[@north61]

Well in that case the 358 might be the way to go!

[@jimbojimson]

@@north61 Absolutely, I just wish we didn't have these arbitrary rules. Lol

[@danielrobey1759]

I’m just thankful that they are allowing the bottle neck 35’s and hoping that they continue to open Iowa up to more caliber options. I honestly never figured we’d even get this far….

[@exothermal.sprocket]

Isn't it interesting how one State vs another State believes something to be very dangerous when proven the opposite somewhere else. Wish all 50 had exactly the same basic caliber laws for game, full reciprocity for conceal-carry. A fellow can dream how a Nation would stop being a hypocrite about its own supreme Constitution and Law.

[@Puckerupbuttercup261]

The real reason .308 is more popular is because it is a NATO cartridge (7.62x51).

[@glaziersgreatoutdoors9976]

I love my .358 Winchester! Mine is a Winchester m70 stainless that I have bedded in a feather weight stock. I shoot 180 gr Barnes ttsx running 2650+ fps. No problems dropping deer out to 275 yards (longest shot so far). Have not hunted nearly as much with the .308, but it is a sweet shooter for sure!

[@philp411]

I came up on the Savage 99 in 308. Great rifle and I had to get one of my own. 308 is perhaps my favorite center fire cartridge for its versatility. The 35’s never became very popular in the US but the 308 is a popular cartridge the world over including military use.

[@ashmerch2558]

love my dad's 358 savage 99. we very rarely if ever get the chance to shoot much past 100yd here in the N.E. I feel like the 358 is really at home here, but ammo, components and 358dia bullets are definitely harder to find than it's smaller diameter cousins... 260rem, 6.5CM, 7mm-08 and 308win

[@Anschutz270]

If I were to be getting a rifle for deep timber deer to moose, the 358 would be in the conversation in a compact bolt action with either a low power scope or open sights. Maybe something like the Ruger Frontier.

[@fedup3582]

I had a ruger frontier in 358. The game I would be hunting most was deer and antelope, though. Guesstimating velocities out of the 16 inch barrel, I decided to try the hornady 180 gr single shot pistol bullet, which is a spitzer design. Hornady said the bullet would work in a 35 whelen so I figured it would hold together at close range on deer sized game. Also, I guesstimated velocity at 300 yds would be in the vicinity of 35 Remington velocities, which the bullet was designed for, so I figured it would work for me out to 300 yds. I had superior ammo out of sturgis sd, load up the ammo and it was supposed to be doing 2700 fps, but I'm assuming that would be out of a longer barrel. The bullet gave me 7/8 inch groups at 100 yds with a scout scope, which if I remember right, was 2.5x. My longest shot on game was 264 yds on an antelope. I always wanted to chronograph the load (but never got around to), but it seemed to shoot flatter than I thought it would. I hit an antelope at 25 yds in the spine and the bullet blasted through blowing out a few vertebrae and completely severing the spine. The antelope at 264 yds dropped in its tracks. I always acheived full penetration on both deer and antelope at ranges from 25 yds to 264 yds (measured with a laser rangefinder). The majority of the time, the game dropped in its tracks, the farthest one ran was 50 yds. Within reasonable ranges I would not have hesitated to use that bullet on an elk, but I would probably go with a 200 or 225 gr if I was intentionally going after elk or moose with the 358. For my use, that 180 gr SSP bullet was perfect in that Ruger Frontier Scout rifle. That was one of my most favorite rifles, but if course Hornady had to discontinue the bullet and life turned sour and I had to sell the rifle. At the time, I also had a Kimber Montana in 338 federal and a Savage 99C in 308. While all worked fine, the frontier scout and 99C were spectacular but the 358 seemed to put down game a bit more emphatically. Also that frontier scout was extremely handy with the 16.5 inch barrel, the 99C had a 22 inch. I also had a 99F in 358, but when life goes south, it can get tough. All 4 rifles got sold but I really miss the frontier scout and the 99C. The 338 federal not so much.

[@joelowery6919]

Great video as usual and I agree with your assessment! I really like the .358 as I have taken game sized from elk down to coyotes with only one shot each but, have done the same with my .30'06. Having used both, I believe the .358 may leave a heavier blood trail but, one isn't really needed for the 10-15 yards, if that, before hitting the ground.

[@matthewcornelison4786]

That 358 cartridge has been calling my name to grab up as dedicated cast bullet rifle

[@colin7748]

Can you do a ballistics gel test on the 358 Winchester? You would be the only one on KZbin to do it!

[@north61]

i'll have to figure out how to make the gel but i'll give it a whirl.

[@82delta]

In most of Appalachia the .358 is the better choice where deer and black bear are in thick woods and 150 yards is considered a long shot. It's the same reason the .35 rem outnumbers the .30-30 win. in the woods there. Nothing wrong with the .308 or .30-30 it's just with all the woods hunting the bigger hole bleeds them out faster and has better results on bones.

[@heerkrupp64]

It's funny, here in Australia as soon as a 358 Win Pops up it's gone in seconds, so long as the rifle is original.

[@north61]

It's the same here.

[@fedup3582]

Some people recognize a good versatile cartridge when they see it. Original rifles will also have collectors value, but if you just want a good hunting rifle, nothing wrong with putting together a good cystom.

[@smitty3624]

Really appreciate the info presented here, was exactly what I was looking for. I've got a 30-30 that's great for deer in heavy cover, but want something for tougher game like black bear, feral hog, and potentially moose or east coast elk if I ever get the chance, and my hunting environments don't usually have much visibility past 150, maybe 200 yards. .358 sounds about right for me, then.

[@craigleibbrand7761]

You're right about the killing power of the 308 over the 358. I'll have to see what Terminal Research Ballistics says about the 338 Federal.

[@craigleibbrand7761]

Maybe the 338 Federal. little bit higher ballistic coefficient. Bullets 200 gr. plastic tip bullet might retain more velocity at extended ranges I know I'm splitting hairs. The 325 Winchester might have potential. I haven't compared it to the 308 Winchester at extended ranges.

[@Mark-uq9km]

I would choose the .30-06 as well if I could have only one rifle. But, the .308 is such a sweet round and fun to shoot. Being a lefty I chose the Remington 7600 for my .308. It is a very well built rifle but I have been unable to get groupings at 300 yards with this hunting rifle. Savage makes a left hand bolt in their Apex Hunter. I bought a .350 Legend in the Apex with a left hand action and enjoy shooting it. My guess is, if you were to take a poll of hunters in North America their one rifle only choice would be the 7mm Rem Mag. The .338 Federal seems to have found the sweet spot in maximizing the potential ballistic acme of the .308 cartridge. But, it too has failed to capture the affection of American gunners. Thank you for your comparisons of the .308 and .358.

[@russellkeeling4387]

If the 358 had been chosen as the nato round it would be the more popular round.

[@north61]

But it never would have as it has range limitations and enhanced recoil. Even the 308 was a bigger bore than necessary. I wish they would have went with a 6.5-6.8 and a small case instead of dragging NATO into the 308 and then abandoning it for the 223 (5.56) when they realized the recoil was too much for full auto and a light rifle.

[@aaronwilcox6417]

I agree. If I lived in your location the first rifle I'd own would be an 30-06. I love my little 308win but the 30-06 stomps it with 200gr Nosler Partitions and 220gr roundnose bullets. The advantage of the 308win is that I'm seeing it on shelves loaded commercially where I'm not seeing the 30-06.

[@luvtahandload7692]

Good comparison, Greg. Aside from the NATO aspect, maybe the popularity of the two rounds would be more even if the BLR .358 had been available right from the get-go. IDK. The BLR 358 is so scabbard-friendly and, able to use spitzer bullets, I wouldn't hesitate to use it on a backcountry elk hunt. Since it's just about gopher time here in The Bakken, I might load up some Hornady 125gr XTP-HPs, probably with Trail Boss and thin the herd a little bit. Thanks, Greg

[@north61]

It could be with modern powders and a good 200 Spitzer at 2550-2600fps that you can add some long yards to the 358. Hard to find good data though. The BLR is lovely..I am selling mine and keeping the Savage but it's a good choice.

[@albertaoutdoors9220]

Fair comparison. 308 with 165 partitions is a great 400 yard deer and caribou combo. And a good 250 yard moose combo. Has anyone ever heard of or shot game with the 375 raptor? An AR inspired round based on the 308 but on paper looks like a real good bolt gun combo for moose and bear inside 250. Swap a barrel on your 308 rifle and that’s it , medium bore efficient powder burn and a big bullet.

[@albertaoutdoors9220]

3600ft/lbs muzzle energy Retaining 2000 ft/lbs at 300 yards Achievable from 20” BLR Speer 235 grain @ 2400-2675 fps Barnes 250 grain TTSX @ 2250-2450 fps Sierra 250 grain Game King @ 2250 - 2550 fps Nosler 260 grain Accubond @ 2250 fps - 2525 fps Nosler 260 grain Solid @ 2200 - 2400 fps Speer 270 grain BTSP @ 2200 - 2400 fps

[@north61]

@@albertaoutdoors9220 WOW!

[@leveractiongypsy1848]

I'm currently looking for / or to build a 358 Winchester. I live in NW Montana and there are more Grizzly Bears here than anywhere in the lower 48, not to mention elk,moose, and wolves and mountain lions that are commonly killed in the 200lb range. Hence my choice of 358 Winchester. Not surprising, alot of people carry 45-70s for woods walking around here. I think the 358 Winchester is probably the best 'woods cartridge' ever designed. I have a 35 Remington and 35 Whelen, but it would be nice to have the 358 Win to load up hot or load down depending on where I'm camping, fishing or hunting. I think the reason 358 Winchester never took off is how many people really need that kind of power up closer without the longer range capability as so many other calibers? Sure a few states in USA and then Canada, but where is the population of gun buyers live? Mostly not in those areas. Bullet choice doesnt play a role for me as I pretty much cast all of my own bullets for 35 caliber and I cast up to 315gr for the 35 Whelen. 35 Remington will pretty much play the 'woods cartridge' role for pretty much everything in the lower 48, and handloaded it comes very close to 358 Winchester, not to mention the current factory offering from Buffalo Bore with the 35 Remington 'woods load' at 220gr at 2200fps. 35 Remington came out in 1906 and pretty much was in that role until 1958 when the 358 Win came out. I think if I was looking for a more 'open range' caliber I wouldnt really consider it, but if you like the woods like where I find myself 99% of the time when I'm outdoors - where a less than 50yd shot is common and a 200yd shot is a long one, 35 caliber rifles are a good balance between power, recoil and range where a 30 caliber may - or may not - get the results you were expecting

[@north61]

For stuff like Grizzly, Bison and even moose the 358 is a great 200 yard cartridge. I still have mine in a Savage 99F

[@leveractiongypsy1848]

@@north61 Oh I forgot to mention we got Bison here too - I live 20 minutes from the National Bison Range....no hunting tho and they are pretty tame animals in the range as a result of the protection status. A pronghorn casually walked up to my Chevy Tahoe (with me in it) and urinated on my rear driver side tire ....and then casually walked away lol

[@fedup3582]

With the right loads, the 358 Winchester, 350 Remington magnum and 35 whelen will reach out much farther than most people seem to think. With appropriate loads, they are DEFINITELY not just woods cartridges.

[@robertsanders7061]

What’s your take on the .35 Whelen?

[@copperjacket00]

And the 308 has the most different kinds of bullets of all the calibers !

[@stevefrompa7181]

I've yet to find a general purpose rifle I like more than my 1963 99f in 308.

[@robertmakowski7808]

Love both of them but like you said...if you can only have one the .308 is much more versatile. I also prefer the .308 over the .30-06 as I like short action bolt guns and having just the .308 also allows one to also have an AR10...

[@timeverett7828]

Just get a 35 Whelen and be done with it!

[@jamesmooney5348]

35 Whelen gives it just enough more speed to compare better against the 308.

[@danielravenstar4051]

Excellent video again,, 307 win is hard to find Soooooooo, I just added a 1980s winchester model 94, 32 special Wrangler, 16 inch barrel,, To my itinerary What are your real life thoughts on that??

[@north61]

the 94 is such a handy rifle and the 32 Special is a great 150 yard carbine and with open sights is fast and handy to get into action. The Flat Nosed bullets expand to 1600 fps or so.

[@ThemantleofElijah]

Hi there North61, a while back I messaged u about the 358 Norma. I ended up buying a 338 win mag. It’s a Ruger M77 Hawkeye stainless. I really like the rifle and wanted something that was bigger and instead of sending off a rifle to have rebored I was able to acquire this one. Have U had any 338s and what might u think of it. Thanks again

[@north61]

When I lived in Nunavut the Game Wardens used Winchester Model 70's in 338 for Polar Bear control. Just about zero difference between the 338 Win and the 358 Norma as far as I can see. What the 358 gains in bore diameter the 338 makes up for in sectional density. Both great rounds! Use good bullets like the 250 Partitions and don't look back!

[@ThemantleofElijah]

@@north61 thank u for the guidance I appreciate u and ur channel is one of my favorites.

[@ziruk-king4466]

Love that 308 savage-- By any chance are you a teacher or retired teacher?

[@north61]

Guilty, I am a retired teacher, principal and superintendent.

[@ziruk-king4466]

@@north61 lol. I thought so. I had a job in glenallen lined up drove up to the Fairbanks teacher fair. Twenty five years ago. Well the story goes fell for a woman lower 48. I am thinking one more year as a teacher here in Wyoming. Always wanted to teach up there for a couple years. Then call it done. I am a special Ed teacher, have a CDL, and went to the police academy back in the day. I am 52 and time is catching up.lol

[@forward1165]

Nice looking 99s’. I’ve always wanted one but the problem is I like Winchesters a whole lot better so I’ll probably never get one

[@fedup3582]

I also had a 99 in 250-3000, but it had the 1 in 14 inch twist instead of the later 1 in 10 and it also had a 26 inch barrel. A 22 inch with 1 in 10 twist would have been much better in the 250, but with ammo availability, my 243's in the savage 99 worked just fine for those applications. I bet the 250 in the right 99 would be a lot of fun but the 243 is more practical.

[@MrPh30]

180 grain handgun bullets in ,358 is a good option also as practife or varmints.

[@fedup3582]

The hornady 180gr SSP bullet loaded to 2700+ fps in a 358 Winchester, works very well on deer size game from point blank to 300 yds. It is NOT a varmint bullet.

[@MrPh30]

Revolver bullet for .357 Mag i meant.

[@fedup3582]

​@@MrPh30that just adds more versatile to the 358, with the 180 gr hornady single shot pistol bullet filling in the gap between very nicely, but of course Hornady had to see fit to discontinue that bullet so the point is rather moot, but I understand that the 180 gr speer flat point works quite well. Then if you add bullets like the 170 gr speer or 180 gr 357 bullets and also the 158 grs, that 358 can become extremely versatile.

[@MrPh30]

@@fedup3582 I used 180 Nosler Partion i HG in my .358 Norma mag when I had it Now discontinued that bullet But Swift make a Aframe 180 grain .357 last time I checked . And others also Even more options on a .41 based cartridge . ( .405 Win bullets , .41 REM Mag bullets , 10,3 Swiss bullets , and for the .450-400 bullets “ )

[@CU65LATER]

Yes i believe you , you are correct .Here most moose are taken 20 - 100 yards , but deer size game mostly 45 - 160 yards. Closest moose was as close as / 8 yards with my eastsiberian laika. So you dont need 300 Win to get moose here in southern Finland. Maybe up north it is better choice .

[@zombieapocolypse141]

Would you say the same logic applies for 30-06 and 35 whelen? I've been thinking about converting my 30-06 to 35 whelen, would it be worth it?

[@north61]

To a lesser extent. The 35 Whelen has enough capacity to move the bullets fast enough to upset well too over 300 yards at reasonable pressure. The 30-06 is still more versatile for example I use mine to 500 yards for medium game. The Whelen is a better moose gun. Go with a fast twist (at least 1-12) so you can handle heavier bullets better though.

[@fedup3582]

You should keep your 30-06, a fantastic hunting rifle, and get yourself a good 35 whelen also! Then you could tailor your new 35 whelen specifically to the uses you intend to put it to! Then you will have the best of both worlds!!

[@Spruce-Bug]

Im looking at ordering a 16"-18" medium contour .358 Winchester barrel. Is that something that deserves a muzzle brake?

[@north61]

I am schizophrenic about brakes. I don't add them but when a rifle comes with one I tend never to take it off. In a well designed rifle stock a 358 doesn't need one as the recoil isnt too bad.

[@fedup3582]

I had a Ruger 77 frontier scout rifle with a 16.5 inch barrel, chambered for the 358 Winchester. Unfortunately life happens and I don't have it anymore, wish I did, it was a fantastic rifle/cartridge combo. You do NOT need a muzzle brake. As I recall, its recoil was very similar to a 270/30-06, and that was with Rugers butt pad. If you put a decent recoil pad on it, it would be quite comfortable, I believe.

[@stanleymarucha8194]

EVERYONE'S GOT THEIR PET MINES A 284 WINCHESTER . THE ONLY ACTION I DON,T HAVE ONE IN IS A PUMP , NEVER DID RUB UP TO A PUMP ANYWAY IN ANYTHING .

[@rmichaelzachary8574]

Short answer - the .308 Win. was a military caliber with more available components and ammunition and exceptional accuracy with equivalent performance to the .30-06. Into the late 1980s the .308 Win. had not overtaken the .30-06 in popularity or acceptance amongst hunters. Amongst hi-power shooters of the era it ruled supreme only being eclipsed in the 1990s by the AR15A2. The reason why the .308 overtook the .30-06 was less recoil and an accuracy advantage with equivalent power. It also was (is) an issue military cartridge while the .30-06 has become obsolete. Whether or not the 7.62N should have replaced the .30 US as the American sniping round is an unfortunate conversation. Clearly, the .30 US loaded heavy (190 grain BTHP) in an M24 or M40 configuration of the late twentieth century was the more capable rifle. Had it been retained as the sniping round there would probably be no need for the .300 WM overhaul of U.S. 7.62 sniper rifles carried out in the last 15 years as it can be loaded with modern powders to propel 210 - 215 grain bullets in the sweetspot 2700+ FPS range. As far as the .358 Win. is concerned, hunting bear, moose, elk in brush became rarified for most U.S. hunters in the 1970s. The magnum craze was also going on. The .358 Win. displays more perceived recoil than a .30-06. Hunters of the era felt it made more sense to go with a belted magnum cartridge to better accomplish everything the .358 Win. does and then some: thus, most shooters who might have considered the .358 Win. went with something like a .338 Win. Mag., got their attaboys from the hunting guides of the time, and never looked back. Then the Marlin 1895 in .45-70 became popular in the 1990s and the .358 Win. was forgotten. It didn't help that the Winchester Model 88 was gone by the end of the 1970s and Browning BLRs were the last rare and expensive carbines chambered in the round. While turmoil in the production of Winchester ammunition, stagnation in its support of Winchester cartridges and the sale of the ammunition division left the .358 Win. in the unenviable position of being considered one of the failures which led to the decline of the company in the post 64 era. Winchester never recovered from its stupidity in the 1960s; even in the 1990s when it tried to recapture its place amongst American sportsmen and shooters it shot itself in the foot by selling worthy successor M70 Classics with ugly BOSS muzzle brakes. The Win. pushfeed 70 was an inferior design to the Remington 700, less reliable, at more cost and was dealt its death blow when militaries around the world established the Remington 700 as the pushfeed standard sniper rifle. And the late model Win. 94s really were never the carbines Marlins were, from scope mounting, to rifling,to cost, to finish, to availability; what kept Win. 94s popular was the Winchester name, but as a result of the post 64 debacle the name itself was no longer enough by the 2000s. It's apples to oranges to compare a .358 Win. to a .308 Win. .358 is a niche cartridge while the .308 is an accurate jack of all trades with acceptable recoil. Quite honestly if you're going .358 caliber the .35 Whelan is a better choice with nearly identical recoil. While a better larger bore brush cartridge for elk, moose, bear, deer in 2022 is probably the .450 Bushmaster loaded heavy. If I needed anything more than a .30-06 loaded heavy, I'd get a .375 H & H and be content. Of the .308 derived cartridges in 2022 2 still merit serious consideration - .308 Win. and 7mm - 08 (.243 Win. If you're bargain shopping and can score a rifle like a Howa at an economy rifle price), and 7mm - 08 has suffered heavily from decades of Remington neglect (bankruptcy) and the current artificial ammo shortage and unacceptable, price spikes in ammunition.

[@fedup3582]

Well, you have a lot of information there. Facts? Don't know about that. Seems to me your information is tainted with opinion and hearsay comments that were spouted in the past. The 30-06 is obsolete? First I've heard that. It has been replaced as a military cartridge, but I seriously doubt it makes the cartridge obsolete. 358 recoil? Having owned and hunted with multiple 358's and 30-06's, I haven't noticed the recoil to be any more than the 06, and considering that if you mathematically figure up the recoil energy of the two cartridges, they are basically the same. Just because people back when spouted their opinions about the recoil doesn't make it true, just like their relegating the 358 to just being a brush cartridge. All that shows is that they never used a 358 much. Post 64 winchesters being inferior to 700 remingtons and less reliable? I've heard of more problems with 700 extractors and 700 triggers than I have with winchester model 70's. And I haven't noticed my 700 Remington's to be any better than my post 64 model 70's. Must be more of that opinion going around. And late 94 winchesters? I haven't noticed where any of my late model angle ejects were any poorer than the 336's I've owned. In fact some of my 94's shoot better than any of the 336's I've owned. I've had more problems with the 336's also, especially after Remington took over producing them. I have never seen a Winchester lever action built as poorly as some of the Remington built 336's I've seen and owned. And my marlin 1895 chambered for 45-70 was just junk. I've never had a lever action with so much feeding problems. Definitely not any of the winchesters ive owned and I've owned examples of most of the models winchester has created, old and new. I have also owned multiple marlin levers in multiple calibers, and I have noticed no superiority of the marlins, only differences. And I know individual rifles can stand out. I have a factory 94 winchester angle eject 30-30 rifle with the crossbolt safety (apparently a junk rifle to hear some people tell it) that will rival the accuracy of most of the bolt action factory rifles out there and it has functioned flawlessly since the day I bought it, and I had no problems mounting a scope on it either. It was every bit as simple and easy as putting a scope on the 336's I had. I also had a 94 trapper length angle eject in 44 magnum, with a Williams peep sight, with which I shot multiple one inch groups at 100 yards with. I have never shot a 336 that would deliver one inch groups. Even my Winchester 64 chambered for 25-35, made in 1940, with factory open sights, will shoot groups as good as many scoped hunting rifles that I have seen. Yes there are bolt actions that will will group better, much better, but I have seen many bolt action rifles that won't. All my life, I have been hearing about how the marlins are so much better than the winchesters, but in my experience, I haven't seen it. Different? Yes. Better? No.

[@rmichaelzachary8574]

@@fedup3582 The .30-06, when not loaded with heavies for larger game is obsolete. Loading a .30-06 with 150 grainers for deer hunting if it's all you have is ok, but the added recoil and cost to reload make it a poor and obsolete choice for that role in 2023. Indeed, East of the Mississippi the .30-06 may never have been the best choice. As far as the .358 it punches you with 25+ ft pounds of recoil energy to deliver less performance than a .30-06 loaded modern with 190 or 200 grainers. Since its use is for larger game, that is excessive recoil for less than optimal performance. The US Army actually wanted to adopt the post 64 Model 70 in its sniper rifle trials in the early 1980s and it found that the extractor was more prone to breakage because it sustained the brunt of bolt thrust and thus it was less reliable than a Remington Model 700. Remington won out as the superior rifle. By the end of the 1980s Winchester realized the mistake the post 64 Model 70 was and reintroduced a very good CRF Model 70 to eventually take its place. But Winchester had squandered its market share and its moment, chain stores no longer provided the orders for Winchester to make it on volume so Winchester died because of the poor quality, high priced and deservedly poor reputation brought on by incompetent management decisions it made post 1964. As far as Marlins are concerned from the late 1940s onwards Marlin barrels were considered better than Winchester barrels and more accurate. The US Army made a point of saying so with the M1 Garand rifle. Mounting a scope on a Marlin meant the difference between a freezer with venison and getting skunked for many hunters. The craftsmanship and smoothness of those old Marlins is something people still talk about and pay a premium for today. There is a niche in Americana for old Winchesters, but today it's mainly composed of collectors and inherited heirlooms. The Marlin 1895 is still in production. I think Winchester killed the 1886 in the 1950s? Then brought it back in commemorative limited production in the 1980s? And I can go on, but you seem to think up is down and crappy is great and good is garbage. I don't see a need in bothering. In other words, your "facts" are very much your own personal experiences and not facts. Post 64 Winchesters are generally lowly regarded, especially those produced from 1964 to ~1979. In the 1980s Winchester tried to make a comeback in quality but the post 64 shortcuts and designs had left such a bad taste in peoples' mouthes that Winchester was an also ran, and then they put ugly BOSS muzzle brakes on everything before they finally died. Winchester is a textbook example of how a great brand can be run into the ground with incompetent management, second standard manufacturing shortcuts and dropping the floor out of production quality while steadily raising prices to sell a brand and not a product. I appreciate the limited, FN production Winchesters today as novelty items. The Model 70s are good, the rest not so much. But Winchester is dead and nobody really cares. Winchester is no longer a player. That's a sad commentary on a gun maker 100 years ago which was considered the industry standard. Your personal experiences with weapons are anecdotal, not facts, and don't reflect the general consensus on these weapons and calibers. Would I choose a Winchester over a Marlin lever action in a carbine which I would stake my life on? No. Would I seek out a .358 to hunt larger game with? I could do better loading a .308 heavy or a .30-06 modern and heavy. Would I recommend a .30-06 to new shooters? No. Does the .30-06 loaded modern and heavy make sense for long range and larger game? Yes. Who does that concern? Less than 5% of American shooters. That makes it obsolete. The US Army had the final word on the post 64 Model 70 after American shooters canned it as inferior junk in the late 1960s onwards in opting for the better designed and more reliable Remington 700. So you seem to have experienced a whole slew of anomalies everybody else did not concerning these weapons and calibers. If that is representative of fact, it's fact from a singular or alternate reality. I'll leave it at that.

[@nkbemby]

For most Americans a 308 is more than they need for Bambi the 358 is just overkill if you live in moose or big timber elk country the 358 would be your go to cartridge .Fortunately most people live in Bambi County. RBC

[@fedup3582]

Nothing wrong with using something a little different and unique. The 358 isn't that big of a cartridge and with appropriate loads, works very well for deer sized game.

[@WesternReloader]

338 Federal is a cool cartridge, but alas I’ve only a 308, really want a bolt action rifle, in a 30 cal magnum, as my only 308 is semi auto

[@fedup3582]

I had a 338 federal, it was a very nice rifle, but I found the 308 to be a much better, more versatile all around cartridge, for thd vast majority of hunting most people do.

[@billmccullough777]

I prefer the 358 (BLR). I hunt in the woods, mostly. 200 yd shots are rare. Recoil is not bothersome. If I am hunting in the open, I'll use my 270 Win or 7 mm RM.

[@north61]

good stuff!

[@winchester358]

Use the Hornady FLX tip 200gr on your thin skinned caribou you will see some upset for sure

[@jamespugh]

Kind wish 358 win took off it dose got place these days as brush gun. Out east here some time ur hunting deer inside of 100yard where 358 would hammer down 308 just zips through don't same size energy dump on game. So one gun for all I say out east why 35 rem still stay around bc up close deer in bear hunting where ur allowed use a rifle

[@fedup3582]

The particular bullet that you use will have a great effect on the terminal performance of a cartridge and that goes for all cartridges.

[@TargetSuite]

Sympathies from a fellow 'tubers'. Mis-speak is my middle name!

[@north61]

62 year old brain!

[@REDNECKROOTS]

308 is better hands down. The 35 is slow