Why the Prequels coming out first would not have worked

[@aarims9212]

If you were to watch them chronologically without knowing Vader is Luke’s father, that reveal scene wouldn’t be nearly as cool.

[@ariesroc]

No matter which way you watch them or how many times Luke never knows Vader is his father every single time.

[@zigurdur92]

@@Ruylopez778 that reveal made history & it’s one of the greatest cinema reveal in history of cinema. It would like making Film about KOTOR and not use KOTOR reveal. The Jedi in OT were never suppose to be the good guys mostly greys, Yoda & Obi - Wan trained Luke Skywalker as their tool for their revenge even obi - wan clearly says in Return of the Jedi, you must kill Darth Vader & Emperor.

[@CrazyxEnigma]

@@zigurdur92 The Jedi are very much meant to be good in the OT unless your referring to Kotor era Jedi?

[@Grivian]

I would argue, save for the Vader reveal and the sister reveal that watching them chronologically adds to the story. First, what is the bigger twist. That Vader is Luke's father, or that the hero that we have been following for 3 movies turns evil? We see the end of the republic, death of the jedi, fall of anakin, death of qui gon and the miraculous triumph of obi wan against maul. Knowing nothing of what happens you will feel that Anakin and Padme are going into their death when they are transported into the arena on geonosis. We lose one great twists but get many others. The betrayal of the clones, even Palpatine being the sith lord would not be obvious. The death of Padme and Anakin burning up, being put in a terrifying suit. Not to mention that it enriches the original trilogy too. When Luke is tempted by the dark side you actually fear that he will turn like Anakin. Luke throwing away his lightsaber and rejecting the emperor would be a triumph. Also you would understand that when Vader saves Luke he finally had the chance to save someone he loved.

[@CrazyxEnigma]

@@Grivian It's far easier to predict Anakin's fall imo. That massacre against the Sand People is a big red flag. While it wasn't originally thought of in ANH, Vader being Luke's father in ESB is foreshadowed, though you aren't going to notice it the first time through.

[@Milothemighty10]

The amount of praise the prequels have been getting is nothing short of magical. I have always loved these movies but something that I’m tired of seeing is that some people (not all obviously) say “the only reason you like the prequels is out of spite for not liking the sequels”.Quite frankly that makes my blood boil. I remember seeing revenge of the sith years before the force awakens let alone the first teaser came out and I loved it and I still love revenge of the sith. The sequels have nothing to do with my view of the prequels…

[@CrazyxEnigma]

A lot of people after watching Disney Star Wars look at the prequels and think "You know they aren't as bad as this." Say what you want about the prequels but man are they quotable. So many memorable quotes. Disney Star Wars doesn't have that.

[@Milothemighty10]

@@CrazyxEnigma agreed and unlike the sequel trilogy it had a plan I mean if there’s one trilogy you can’t throw the “it had no plan“ argument against it’s the prequels some of its elements were planned back in 1977 decades before they ever came out…

[@SpiffyGiraffeCreations]

I like all the trilogies.

[@tanizaki]

The prequels are still bad.

[@thebaptistwasher]

@@CrazyxEnigma The Disney Star Wars films are actually quite quotable. Their dialogue is surprisingly good. I often say lines like, "Somehow, Palpatine returned."

[@SgtAJ218]

As a writer myself, I don’t think if the Prequel Trilogy came out first, it would've worked. I say this because the Original Trilogy works as a stand-alone story. Meaning, you can watch these 3 movies with no prior knowledge of what Star Wars is, and you can understand what the story is about without needing much more exposition. Now, as much as I love the Prequels, they wouldn’t work as a stand-alone trilogy because of how each film ends on a cliffhanger. I mean, hypothetically, say we saw TPM first, we would be left wondering, “did Anakin bring balance to the force.” I mean, you feel satisfied that Naboo is free, but Anakin is the main character, and his arc isn’t complete. Then we watch AOTC, and again we’re left with a cliffhanger because The Clone Wars has begun. Lastly, ROTS ends with our Heroes defeated and the Jedi Order destroyed. Of course, there’s a new hope but, you’re left hanging and not feeling satisfied by the end. Now we wait 2 decades later, and we finally get the ending, where the new hope emerges and destroys the Empire. Some people may not be as interested because it took way too long for the creators to show us how the story ends. I mean, there are TV episodes that do end on cliffhangers, but they usually take a few weeks or even several months to show us how their story ends, and people generally can wait that long. Waiting 20 years, though, that is way longer than anyone would want to wait. So, in short, I don’t think releasing the Prequels first wouldn’t have worked because they don’t work as a stand-alone story compared to the Original Trilogy.

[@zigurdur92]

People are also forgetting that prequels got better thanks to extra content like Star Wars Clone Wars without them prequels would have been worse.

[@michaellane5381]

Honestly, the problem is episode 2 is kind of... Rushed, it's less a movie in and of itself and more "the mushy" part of a love story, the beginning/origins of a war. For all its faults, episode 1 is the most self contained movie in that trilogy. Episode 2 requires auxiliary materials if interested in the war or episode 3 to finish the love story. Episode 3 requires episode 1 to explain Obi-wan, episode 2 for the rest of the Jedi order plot and similar but opposite reasons episode 2 needed it it requires that episode, it then requires episodes 4-6 for Vader's context. If the prequels were released first I would expect the following changes; Episode 1 might lack Jar Jar or remain unchanged. Episode 2 might be a miniseries with episode 3 as the 2 hour finale or both would be 2 divergent series, 1 the love story/personal tragedy and the other a docudrama. Episode 4 relatively unchanged. Episodes 5 and 6 altered to acknowledge backstory from the prequels like Fett's, Obi-Wan's, etc.

[@Mpiewizard]

In terms of the watch order, I’ve always said if the person who’s never seen the films already knows the big reveal, start with the prequels. If they somehow don’t know, start with the originals. I do agree that starting with the prequels wouldn’t have worked but I also find myself wondering how the 6 films might have been different if George knew he’d be able to make all six. I feel like he would have saved the Death Star being destroyed for the final movie. I don’t know how New Hope would’ve ended but that would make the most narrative sense.

[@ariesroc]

That's another point. In a six movie scenario there is only one Death Star not two. Luke probably finds out about Leia in Empire so that it had impact in Jedi. Luke might train Leia in-between Empire and Jedi to some degree.

[@squashgaming9279]

Yeah George actually said that he originally wanted the death star to be he grand finale but when he realized 4-6 was too big for one movie, he added the death star to the end 4 because he wanted a satisfying finale.

[@alistairgrey5089]

I agree that it wouldn't work if they were flipped as is. Obviously if they were flipped the stories would have been vastly different but that's a whole different story. I actually loved how the OT didn't have to explain the back stories of everyone. It just showed you who they are for the most part and went from there. Palpatine was just the emperor and his past was a complete mystery. Han had a character defining moment with Greedo which showed only a fraction of what his backstory was but it was enough to get us invested in the character. There are tons of examples of this in the OT. I actually don't like how many audiences now expect back stories for everyone. Not every character needs one.

[@ariesroc]

As Lucas pointed out the reason why he could get away with not explaining an many things in the OT was because he purposefully did so knowing that he could shuffle those stories into the PT which at that point he didn't know he would ever make BUT if anyone asked he just said "Well that story is to be explained in the first trilogy." It was a great shorthand.

[@CrazyxEnigma]

This is something that seems to be missing in a lot of media nowadays, even Lucas forgot some of these lessons in the prequels. "Show don't tell" is parroted by people all the time yet how often is this actually used by writers, directors and producers?

[@Paradox-es3bl]

I partially disagree. Not every character needs their backstory shown... but the writer, director, actor... Dungeon Master... like everyone benefits from the character HAVING a backstory. The character, too. But honestly, HINTS at their backstory can be WAY more interesting than seeing everything. Although, superheroes should probably have origin stories. I think Marvel kinda proves this. Although the origin movies aren't always the best ones... I'd argue Cap 2 without Cap 1 is just a worse experience. I don't think it's suddenly awful or anything, but worse. And because the MCU did origins for almost everyone (although GOTG was more a team origin than any one character's origin)... We got better future movies as a result. Plus, Iron Man 1 is one of the best MCU movies, imo. Especially if you don't mind the hero fights an evil version of themselves trope, which was basically started by IM1 in the MCU, at least. But I'd argue that a lot of Batman's better stories also basically involve that... there's a reason Sinestro is probably Hal Jordan's best villain, etc.

[@funkydiscogod]

No, the OT had very different backstories for the characters. For example, the Emperor. The OT implied the Emperor became Emperor of the Galactic Empire legitimately, but the high office was not enough to satisfy his lust for power, and so he turned to mysticism. How do we know this? First, Vader often talked about the "power of the Dark Side," and repeats that phrase as if it was taught to him. Since he calls the Emperor his Master, we know the Emperor must have said this first, and so we conclude the Emperor's interest in the Dark Side was power. Second, the Emperor does not seem like the kind of politician who would actively make policies. He is recluse, more concerned about the Force than politics, and delegated authority so the "regional governors will now have direct control over their systems." This would indicate that the Emperor is no longer interested in politics. We put those facts together, and it is a clear picture of who the Emperor is, and it is very different from the Prequels.

[@alistairgrey5089]

@@funkydiscogod the regional governors were given direct control because the emperor dissolved the senate. He was consolidating power which is why when he was killed the war seemed to be over in RotJ.

[@SiriuslyBlack7]

When watching the prequels, i realized that in ESB,Yoda, the leader of the Jedi council of thousands of Jedi across the galaxy, wasn't just some little crazy green swamp-dwelling alien with a thing for "hand lamps",but actually a powerful well learned Jedi who was actively trolling him to get under his skin,in a sense, to "test" Luke to see if he was the type to judge a book by it's cover, and to see if he had a calm demeanor for patience..Of course Luke initially failed,but the fact that Yoda was putting on an act was that much more hilarious when you know what he was really like just barely 17 years ago..His experiences throughout the Clone Wars,how many Jedi of different species across the galaxy that he taught from very young children to fully matured adults..I enjoyed The Empire Strikes Back so much more and alot harder with him fighting R2-D2, screaming "MINE!MINE!MINE!MINE!

[@rogerpalsgrove9678]

Hey Thor maybe an interesting topic would be the behind the scenes of the prequels. The beauty and detriment of Lucas was his ability to "fly by the seat of his pants". His legacy is so monumental basically the father of the blockbuster franchise. Then the wizard of pushing the boundaries of film-making. At the time the audience and Luke had no idea about the Vader reveal in ESB but I think it still works from Luke's perspective if you watch the films in chronological order. Lucas could have benefited greatly with less yes men during the making of the prequels. They do encompass the overall arch nicely but did create a few plotholes. Ever since Empire of Dreams I got fascinated by the behind the scenes of the films. The prequels get a lot of flak for the CGI but there's so much practical that people don't realize.

[@GoldeneyeDoubleO7]

Even with the point of recontextualizing the OT. The prequels don't necessarily stray too far or drastically do things differently from the OT. It essentially lines up pretty well unlike the sequels

[@petersanzen4106]

The prequels ate basicly a different story. Change the names and you would never guess they were connected.

[@GoldeneyeDoubleO7]

@@petersanzen4106 Lol what? Obviously, the prequels would have to be a different story. We don't want an almost exact retelling of the OT like the sequels did lol. The point I'm making is that even when there's recontextualizing of the OT the prequels still line up and connect well with the OT. The sequels on the other hand make no sense and don't connect well with OT in IMO. The explanations that they tried to add after the movies came out to fix the overall plot of the sequels are shaky and lead to even more questions.

[@petersanzen4106]

@Blactrick My point is that the prequels DONT line up with with the OT. They are not connected at all. There are potholes and timeliness that don't add up. Basicly like I said, change the names of the characters and you would never guess they were connected.

[@devontehuntley6274]

@@petersanzen4106 The only issue between the trilogies is two things. One, that Obi Wan could have been older than he was during the time of the prequels and without Qui Gon there because the original trilogy made it seem like he himself discovered Anakin and he is very much old in the original movie. Qui Gon kinda took over that role of the discovery and to think Obi Wan was only in his mid-twenties then is off because that means he was 57 in ANH which is unbelievable. I guess you can say him living in exile all those years got him to age faster. The Obi Wan show definitely does not help because Ewan looks really no different than in the prequels and this is only nine years before AHN. They could have aged him u some more, or better yet, not even did the damn show. The other thing is Leia remembering her mother. I wish Revenge of the Sith had a moment where Luke is taken away for treatment and Padme has Leia in her arms and talks to her before she died. We have baby Leia focusing on her heavily, so this moment is instilled in her head that she would remember. Return of the Jedi does indicate they were separated and hidden after birth so that is still intact correctly, but the issue is just Leia remembering her mother and not knowing exactly when she died yet because you would have figured she was much older than a baby. There was a theory that Padme raised Leia for a few years, died, and Leia was taken in by the Organas. But that kind of comes off selfish since she basically ditched Luke, so the way it works with her dying after the birth so she isn't choosing one twin if she had to choose one. Other than that, I really see no issue between the trilogies. Things like the Sith name, the chosen one prophecy and the midiclorians did not retcon anything. We still have characters like Obi Wan, Yoda, and Palpatine, Aunt Beru and Uncle Owen, Jabba, etc. that certainly helps connect the trilogies.

[@jayhartRIC]

@@devontehuntley6274 how is Obiwan being 57 in ANH unbelievable. Alec Guinness was 62 when he filmed Star Wars so the age is pretty accurate. As for Leia talking about remembering her mother, I always assumed they were Force visions and she just thought they were memories.

[@Hanoua2]

What I did with my wife when I introduced her to Star wars, was to start with episode 3 : Revenge of the sith (I was scared she would give up after attack of the clone or Jarjar binks) its action pack and it directly link to the OT. She never saw any of the original movies, but already knew that Vader was Luke's Father. But the cool thing is... She didn't know Anakin was vader. So when sidius said: "you will be known as Darth... Vader !". It actually blew her mind

[@CmdrBrannick]

Hey Thor, just curious, if you were to introduce someone to the movies, where would you show them Rogue One and Solo? First, in the middle or at the end? This also depends on what order you show the 6 movies.

[@ariesroc]

A "PT first" would have likely had an already teenage Anakin with a slightly older Obi-Wan both from Tatooine as per the earlier PT backstory. We can see this because in "The Star Wars" Annikin Starkiller is far more Anakin than Luke and General Luke Skywalker is effectively a PT Obi-Wan. The Star Wars is the bridge story that is both parts PT and OT from which both trilogies start from.

[@jeremyfields9009]

When I saw the trailer(kid Anakin wasn’t in this one) for phantom menace in theaters I remember me and my friends thinking that Liam Neeson was obi wan and Ewan was Anakin. Lol man we were disappointed when we found out he was a kid a couple months later.

[@ShlupGitto]

Hey Thor you should do a video comparing the legends and cannon clone wars stories

[@Valkanna.Nublet]

Showing the PT before the OT would work if the PT had three changes: 1: No Padme birth scene. Make the audience believe the kid(s) died with her. 2: Luke didn't have the same damn name as Anakin/Vader. 3: The PT features a Jedi who is related to Owen, and gets killed by Anakin. Unfortunately there's no amount of editing the PT that would stop spoiling the reveals of the OT. Even deleting the birth scenes leaves the problem of the name, so would only stop one reveal.

[@ariesroc]

As Lucas said it's not about spoilers but rewards. Going from I through VI it becomes about the suspense of when Luke is going to find out about Vader and Leia. In reality Vader being Luke's father was "spoiled" even before Empire came out never mind soon after. Of your points you wouldn't cut out 1) because then it just ends the trilogy in confusion. It'd be too obvious to the audience that the Luke and Leia are the kids. The revelation is for them as characters not to the audience. Doing it in the way you suggest is the JJ method which as we've seen doesn't work. Lucas didn't withhold Vader being Luke's father in ANH because at that point he wasn't. Lucas only thought of it afterwards then used it and revealed in within one movie. 2) Yes Luke's last name would have been different. Actually going into shooting ANH his last name was Starkiller not Skywalker so if that hadn't changed then he'd have been Luke Starkiller and his father could have been called Anakin Skywalker (since his name wasn't used in ANH). 3) Obi-Wan would likely have been the Jedi related to Owen or maybe Beru would have been Anakin's sister. Looking at ANH in isolation we don't know the relationship as to why Owen and Beru are his family. One of them must be related to Anakin in some way but we don't know how (until AOTC).

[@LumVaughan]

The crazy yet wonderful thing about the SW franchise is that it continues to grow and expand every year, growing more and more complex. The original three movies were basic, go-to-the-movies-and-have-a-good-time sort of sci-fi. Lucas wasn't worried about expanding anything in the 1970s. He waffled all over the place with the original SW script -- you can google some of the earlier drafts and see how crazy and unsure of what A New Hope would even be and there was no way he could weave together six or even three movies until he had clear in his mind what ANH was going to be. For Lucas, just getting ANH filmed and released was a huge achievement. It was an uphill battle the whole way and only then did he start looking at TESB. He even had a contingency plan if ANH was not as popular as it turned out to be. Allen Dean Foster's novel "Splinter of the Mind's Eye" would have been the follow-up to ANH if he had a limited budget due to ANH not making much money at the box-office. That is why it was released as a book before TESB came out. It was the first book of what is now the Star Wars Legends series. Watching the prequels before seeing the original three movies for the first time would spoil reveals such as who Darth Vader really was and who his children were. Personally, I think a first time viewer needs to watch the original trilogy then the prequels and if they are desperate, the sequels. If they want the whole experience, go through everything in the canon, but only after seeing the original trilogy first. I've watched everything, even the goofy Holiday Special and the non-canonical cartoon Clone Wars series and Lego stuff (which are really fun to watch for laughs). But it all starts with the original trilogy; everything else has been built around them.

[@Sci-Fi-Mike]

I've seen so many reactions of younger kids on KZbin seeing the original trilogy first and hearing Vader say to Luke, "No, I am your father." I imagine the kids' reactions were similar to 1980 adults' reactions (I was too young), but I feel it's the best order for first viewers.

[@staroceans8677]

I think like you, the original trilogy stood on its own and had great merit, a relative beginning and dramatic end. However, the mystique was that the iconic villain Vader was so overwhelmingly popular that people wondered who he was, why he became the way he did, and what was his beginning that caused him to become so twisted and hateful. I think that precipitated the prequels.

[@superbrian7997]

When I was a child I always wanted to know how the Emperor became the Emperor more so than how Anakin Skywalker became Darth Vader. Did he inherit the throne of Emperor or come about it some other way is what was always a fascinating untold tale of Star Wars to me and George Lucas delivered on this untold tale in the Prequel Trilogy! However I still feel GL fumbled the holocron with Anakin Skywalker’s fall to the darkside.

[@MatthewChenault]

Even the plot elements you bring up that aren’t “touched upon” in the Original Trilogy are addressed… from a certain point-of-view. Those things don’t have to be brought up again in the Original Trilogy nor need to be edited into them because the overall assumption is that this is addressed by the ending. The prophecy - something Luke wouldn’t be able to fully comprehend or understand - is brought to fruition through Vader’s actions of defying his dark master and bringing an end to him. That doesn’t need to be addressed as the audience, when watching it in chronological order, would be going into the Original Trilogy knowing Vader forsook the prophecy and Luke would be largely unaware of it himself. It isn’t necessary to be brought up again as we, the audience, already know about it. In other words, the film’s plot addresses the plot elements by having those plot elements fulfilled without uttering a single word. This is what makes the Prequels such a good prequel to the Star Wars saga: they seamlessly tie into the Originals without having to completely gut the Originals in the process.

[@Chosen_one_501]

Yeah, the prophecy of the chosen one storyline is handled very well. Remember that Yoda and Mace did have doubts as to how if Anakin was really the chosen one. And with that context, Yoda saying there is another makes sense. He could mean there is another who could fulfill the prophecy.

[@thorskywalker]

If the Prequels came out first, and then sixteen years went by before the original trilogy came out, people would be very, very upset about things like the balance of the Force, the Sith, the prophecy and all that not being mentioned. That's my point.

[@MatthewChenault]

@@thorskywalker, I’m not disagreeing with the main point. I simply wished to address that particular point about it not being addressed. More likely than not, if the prequels were made first, then the originals (sequels) would have included references to the prophecy in some form to jog the memory of the audience.

[@Travis_Hackney]

Ummm I always thought of the OT as the story of the redemption of Darth Vader: he comes in stepping over bodies and choking people to death, and ends as a smiling old force ghost amongst friends because of the goodness in the son he didn’t know he had…

[@marvelstarwarsfan8410]

If the original trilogy had come out later I think people would have been confused because it’s similar to the response the sequel trilogy,they would be confused of the changes from midiclorians to just the force being an energy field that sorrounds all life forms,and so on,but also if the prequels had come out first I think it would have made a little more sense.

[@TheIceCrypt]

Midichlorians do not contradict the force being an energy field. Midichlorians are not & were never implied to be what the force IS. They are merely the explanation as to how people are able to interact with the force. How people don’t get this is beyond me.

[@ariesroc]

There is no change to the Force. It was and always has been an energy fields. The midi-chlorians are not the Force and never were. They are literally the connector of the energy field to living matter. The middle-man delivery connection.

[@jeremyfields9009]

@@TheIceCrypt They aren’t mention in the originals that’s the problem

[@CrazyxEnigma]

@@TheIceCrypt The Force is very magical in nature, trying to science it rubbed people the wrong way. I don't think it needed an explanation. Much of it's strangeness is ripped out of Campbell's " The Hero of a Thousand Faces" in fact the whole OT fits this structure to a tee.

[@MCsCreations]

Oh, it works either way. Sometimes I watch it 1 to 6, other times 4, 5, 6, 1, 2, 3. Doesn't really matter, it's all about preference. 😊

[@ariesroc]

It would have worked fine but obviously it wasn't possible on a tech level. It would have been different because Lucas put the final PT story together in retrospect of the final OT story. If he had started with the story of Anakin and Obi-Wan first then by the time of ANH it would have been done differently with both Luke and Leia finding out about their father.

[@vetarlittorf1807]

I mean, there would be ways around the tech problem. Originally Lucas was going to make the prequels in 1987, but dropped the plan because he went through a divorce.

[@zigurdur92]

@@vetarlittorf1807 The Star Wars would the flop with current prequels films. Nobody would started franchise with Phantom menace instead New Hope or Attacks of the Clones instead of Empire Strikes Back. People are also forgetting success of Star Wars was also thanks to editing of Marcia Lucas & the crew. They made Star Wars possible without them & George Lucas. We would have the OT Star Wars.

[@vetarlittorf1807]

@@zigurdur92 Actually, the whole "Star Wars was saved in the edit" is a myth. Also, I didn't say anything about starting the franchise with the prequels. Also, the prequels didn't flop. The only Star Wars movie that flopped was Solo.

[@zigurdur92]

@@vetarlittorf1807 thor question was about PT being made first films of franchise instead OT. the New hope is better opening to Star Wars than Phantom Menace. The simple story of New Hope made sense at 70’s. New hope had better main characters and crew than PM. People liked the droids over Jar Jar binks. Darth Vader far better than Darth Maul & Tarkin is next best thing after Darth Vader & Emperor.

[@CrossingTheStreetArt]

it should still work with Phantom Menace as the beginning, BUT I believe the series works best when the prequals are used as a type of flash-back to intermit the original trilogy between The Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi to really emphasize the weight of Luke's choices at the end and to make the audience wonder more about what Luke might do. After Empire Strikes Back, the audience knows all the big mysteries except what Luke will do knowing Vader is his father.

[@csmith1298]

If I'm reading you correctly, that's a pretty damn good idea. Never thought or heard of IV-V-I-II-III-VI before, but it fits nicely for many reasons, not just due to the many similarities between III and VI. Take my like. Cheers.

[@NZealand]

Na that’s just dumb. You can’t watch a whole trilogy 2 3rds in between another trilogy

[@CrossingTheStreetArt]

@@NZealand each movie has a complete story and work on their own anyway

[@netney52]

Only 2 years ago I finally decided to watch all the Star Wars films. After looking online of watching them in release order or episode order (so many different opinions on this) I decided to watch them in episode order with the inclusion of solo and rogue one. The only Star Wars film ironically I had watched as a kid was phantom menace. For me episode order was a good way to watch all the films. I got to see solo as being introduced to Han and then the thrill of rogue one going into new hope. The only twist I knew was the Luke/Vader one. The palpatine/emperor was a big surprise. The only thing I do think with the films is at the moment you really don’t need to see 7-9 as they really add nothing to the story. Maybe it’s because I found them crap films with little interest to watch them again.

[@netney52]

@@Ruylopez778I’ve heard that too. Apart from liking phantom menace as a kid and being enthralled by the podracing, shocked padme was the queen and saddened qoi gon died I had no other emotional attachments to Star Wars watching the all the other films. Oddly I hated force awakens and rise of skywalker of the 3. Force awakens to me was a repeat of new hope which I was bored with except for what happened with Han. Rise of skywalker I just hated it and can’t get past the palpatine arc and the cop out of chewbacca dying. Last Jedi as much as I hated what they did with Luke for me it had the most interesting story. I do think the worse film of all of them is attack of the clones.

[@kalzium8857]

A new hope would have worked as a standalone movie. The rebellion has just defeated the main weapon of the empire. On the other hand tpm would have not worked as a standalone movie. If you want to make the prequels work as the first movie than you have to first write star wars as a book series like harry potter and than adapt. Another problem is that anakin turned to the dark side and fans would get irritated that his hero turns bad. Can you imagine that harry potter gets evil in the 3rd book and gets redeemed by his son in the 6th book? I think that lucas has the right idea telling the ot first.

[@theankios1202]

Maybe I am in a kind of weird situation but I am from the generation which was between the two. I grew up watching Episode IV, V and VI but when new version came out in theatres I was only 10 to 11. Of course I can't remember everything that went through my head at the time but I can say with confidence that the glimpse we got of Coruscant at the new ending of Episode VI was a big deal for me as I had read already quite a bit of the EU, especially Thimothy Zhan's work. Of course as a kid this young, despite having read the novelisation version of The Phantom Menace before the movie came out in theaters, I wasn't really disappointed by the movie version as I was able to see epic lightsaber battles and I still came in the theatre extremely excited. When Epidose II came out, there was no real way for me to see the online reactions and Star Wars was starting to get popular where I lived but people didn't really know about it before the 1997 re-realeases. I didn't see all the negative reactions from that time until... maybe a decade later. To me, at not even 16, both having 200 Jedi deployed and all the political plotting made Episode II the most awesome Star Wars in terms of movies. Back then I started to see the OT as blend, overly simplistic and morally dangerous as it was simply an opposition of evil vs good. I still liked it, but I still liked it because it was Star Wars. At that time, I started watching Episode I and II over and over while getting deep into all EU which exploded in terms of volume at that time, and watched episodes IV to VI less and less. And Episode III gave me everything I needed as a very young adult who was now passionate about philosophy of politics. For several years I didn't even watch episodes IV to VI while binge watching I to III because there was philosophy and politics while, at that time, I was simply seeing Episodes IV to VI as being like Rambo or Terminator. Enjoyable while you watch it, but barebone compared to what the prequels had done. Now, I am able to see what is lacking in the prequels. Most of all, I thought back then and still think that it should have been done in 6 movies instead of 3. And you are so right that the OT can't be judged by today's standards and probably the prequels first would have failed if released first. One thing important for me to mention is that I got diagnosed as autistic at the age of 30. It matters because the "wooden dialogues" that the prequels are being accused of were back then absolutely perfect for me. I knew exactly who was thinking what and when. To this day, I am a huge prequels fan, despite seeing the OT first. I'll admit, the two things that got me back into the OT are not the movies by themselves. Rogue One was the first thing that made me care about the OT again and very lately, Andor got me back into it. Especially as the sequels made me never want to see the characters of the OT as Star Wars. Star Wars, until very recently, was the prequels and the original Thrawn trilogy to me. And I am sorry if my feelings about it hurt anyone reading this.

[@zigurdur92]

The rogue one is proof of why Prequels don’t work as the first films of franchise. We have now a superior prequel film over PM & Attacks of the Clones. Phantom Menace lacks the charisma & magic of New Hope. The simple story with easily known main characters like Luke Skywalker, Han Solo & Leia plus great bad guys like Darth Vader & Tarkin. Phantom Menace & Attack of the clones would been death of Star Wars.

[@theankios1202]

@@zigurdur92 I can see how you might feel that way. The basic concept of the OT is amazing. But the realization isn't dark enough. It is too much for 12 year old kids. What I love about Rogue One and Andor is that it feels like the rebels are not just simply "the good guys" and the Empire is not simply "the bad guys". Politics is there from start to finish. Is it okay to shoot a disabled person who just gave you a vital information because he will probably get caught because you are about to flee in front of an imperial patrol? That is the first question Rogue One asks you. Are heroes real heroes if they die? If they clearly are going on a suicide mission? I understand that people enjoy more the OT than the prequels. I just don't. And it is okay. I was sharing a personal story, not saying I have the objective truth. 😉

[@zigurdur92]

@@theankios1202 i think OT was Dark enough at that time, Empire Strikes back even Return of the Jedi, that beginning of Luke in the dark cloak. I agree with that R1 & Andor are making OT better by showing us that rebels were terrorists & Empire had some gray guys. The one of main arguments of the sequels is lack of love towards prequels. If the prequels had been made before Ot, that same arguments would also apply on OT,

[@theankios1202]

@@zigurdur92 Here I only partially agree. I think your overall reasoning is sound. And I am sorry because apparently I didn't express myself clearly enough which led to some of our misunderstanding I think. To me, it is not that the OT isn't dark enough that is the problem. It is that it is too much "Evil" versus "Good" and that in the end, the side of the "Good" never do anything which could be considered "bad" while the "Evil" side never show us why people followed it. That is why the prequels were absolutely needed. But to me, one of the major problem with the fan ficti... hem sorry, the sequels, is that it is only a quick copy paste of the OT and badly written at that. That is also why, I think, some older people didn't like the prequels because it was "too different" from the OT. What I am about to say isn't scientific representation of course but growing up, my father was the only adult I knew who had seen Star Wars before I started watching it. When he saw the prequels he didn't like it and his reasoning was that, in his opinion, the OT was full of humor. I fear a lot of older people (I mean 40 or 50+ now) who grew up with the OT without being huge fans, just casual enjoyers, didn't really like that prequels because it was too different for them, especially as casual viewers. But there is still humor in the prequels, but not more than in the OT, and that is what Jar Jar Abrams and Man baby didn't understand. They tried to make a semi serious comedy while just bringing back what they liked in the OT and removing everything they didn't like from the prequels (which means everything, down to Anakin Skywalker). Yet, that generation went through episoe V being far different to episode IV and Return of the Jedi being extremely different from the first two. I guess, when you grow up with something in your mind for 2 decades, you just make a picture of what you enjoyed the most instead of what it was. So I don't think the problem the sequels had would have been quite like the problem the prequels had. If the OT had been made after the prequels, I agree that it would have been a problem for the popularity of Star Wars. "Star Wars", or as we call it now Episode IV, was basing itself hundred of years of clichés while bringing a lot of new stuff and twisting the clichés to make them modern and mindblowing "A future knight and a damsel in distress but in the end the real hero in the damsel and she gives orders to the future knight and she knows what is going on while the future knight is clueless, he just knows he doesn't like the Empire, but he never left his homestead". Yes absolutely that was probably the core of what hooked generations of people of all ages to Star Wars. Political intringue in space woudn't have sold most probably. That is why I don't think the OT would have suffered the same reaction as the "sequels". The OT is still in the same universe but vastly different from the prequels. The sequels are just lazy and badly written fan fiction from people who wanted to make what they thought they understood of Star Wars when they saw it in cinema in 1977.

[@JaminBro]

From 2004 to 2007, I spent countless hours on the Star Wars Forums. To me, this was the voice of the fandom. And there was not a hate against the prequels. It didn't exist there. It was mainly created and spread by the media while fans thoroughly enjoyed it. (This was before social media was a thing so you couldn't add your voice to the media craze.) The OT made sense, for the most part, story wise. The PT added and fleshed out those details and stayed a coherent story throughout. This is what makes me the most sad about the ST. They had a chance to flesh more out with an even better coherent story... And it bombed. My son is two. In a year or two, I will introduce him to Star Wars. We will start with 4 because I want him to feel the same way I felt with the ending of episode 5. I probably will show him Clone Wars and Rogue One. But I don't know if I will show him the ST. They will be the equivalent of the badlands in the Lion King. "Stay away!"

[@thechairman74]

There have been various fan re-writings of the prequels that sought to maintain the mystery of Vader's true identity or to have the prequels be the series that actually did come out first. And, I don't know, I just don't think it would work the same, because we went into the prequels with already all the experiences of the OT, and the prequels worked in that they filled in the blanks and our amazement at how the galaxy looked and the improvements in effects only work in context to the originals. If they were reversed, I agree that we would be disappointed in the OT, now sequel trilogy. One idea that I have always had is that the prequels and sequels should have been told in one story, with Luke finding out about his father's past to reveal some secret that will help him defeat the current threat that he is facing. So, even though the originals are being re-contextualized, they are directly affecting Luke. For example, Luke might be exploring the Jedi archives that have only recently been taken back after the defeat of the Empire and he finds Sidious' personal logs or journals, or through the help of R2-D2, he pieces together the story. The series would cut back and forth between past and present a la The Godfather Part II.

[@shrunkenheadsandspiderwebs697]

Hey Thor! How would you feel about the OT being remastered again? Remaking all the CGI again to make it look better, reshoot some action scenes but keep it looking like grainy film, add lightsaber lighting to the scenes, etc. make things faster and better for a modern audience. Something like scene 38 reimagined but for the whole OT. Do you think that it would help reinvigorate a young crowd to Star Wars or is part of the love and appeal some of the goofy imperfections of the time? Thanks Thor keep the guy great stuff!

[@Solo13508]

I don't see why not do something like that. For people who prefer the older versions there's nothing keeping them from watching those

[@zigurdur92]

You mean like what they did with Force Awakens. The Remake of New Hope & Empire Strikes back

[@Kevin_Street]

Gen X represent! Luke will always be our main hero. But yeah, the prequels flipped that by making Anakin the central character. His decision to save Luke in Return of The Jedi is still the climax of the entire saga, but for a different reason than before. Before it was the story of Luke growing into a Jedi and learning to love a person he hated and feared - and now it's that plus the rise, fall and last second redemption of his Dad. Looking at it honestly my emotions have always been dominated by nostalgia for the original interpretation, but reason says the series works better now. Back in the 80's Darth Vader's redemption never felt believable to me. This character who was a literal monster does _one_ good thing and suddenly he's no longer a creature of the Dark Side? Pshaw. But now we see his entire story from the beginning and watch him become that monster, and that makes his sacrifice at the end more meaningful. He did do good things once. He knew both nobility and love, once. This was him regaining a little of the personal agency that was taken away by the Emperor.

[@waltciii3]

Gen X response. I did not like the prequels, not just because of Jar Jar, but the whole Anakin story made him seem unredeemable. It would have been one thing if I liked him before his final fall in ROTS. The cringe acting during "intimate" scenes definitely didn't help. Luke had his (step) parents killed and his teacher killed but still had positive energy. Anakin seemed to be born with negative energy that was only reinforced. I still haven't shown the prequels to my kids... I hear the Clone Wars fixed Anakin, but I didn't have time for that animated series. We in Gen-X had to make money!!! PS I was like screw Anakin, where's Luke?

[@macmcleod1188]

For me, Anakin killing a couple dozen 5 year olds kids (who trusted him) by dismembering them with a light sword in the prequel made him irredeemable. But, that's just me, I guess. Huh. How on earth could he, Yoda, and Obi-Wan all sit there smiling at each other while the ewoks danced knowing Anakin did to those kids.

[@englishlady9797]

@@waltciii3 Luke is kind of perfect from the get go. A bit of a Mary Sue: Anakin is a more complex character. A lot of people don't like that, but it makes him more realistic IMHO.

[@englishlady9797]

@@macmcleod1188 These are the same Ewoks that literally *ate people*? They don't have such a high standard of morality as you think. Its played for laughs in the OT, but the Ewoks are nasty little blighters who eat their victims. They were literally going to cook Han and eat him. TCW series and even the prequels show that Jedi killing kids was really not that uncommon an occurence. They literally took a bunch of preteens into active combat in Attack of the Clones, and we see the little uns training with deadly weapons many times. It is again, played as something cute, but when you really think about it, this is virtuallly a religious cult that trains child soldiers & sends kids as young as 9 into active warzones. Mace Windu and Yoda have kid's blood on their hands.

[@macmcleod1188]

@English Lady no Luke is not. He's not well liked by the other people, he's whiny, he's overconfident, and he constantly makes bad decisions. If not for Ben, he would have gotten seriously mauled in the MOs Eisley bar. I could go on. The list is huge and some people have itemized it.

[@ariesroc]

Another scenario is that if the PT is first then Lucas could kill Yoda off in ROTS because he then knows that he has Obi-Wan as Luke's teacher who wouldn't be killed off in ANH (as per the original script).

[@Chosen_one_501]

Well maybe, but the question here is what if the films we got came out in different order, not what if the films were made differently. If that makes sense.🙂

[@tinybee7780]

There's definitely gonna be a huge change to how I look at the series as a whole if I were to watch it the way George Lucas wanted it to be: I-VI. I thought Star Wars was all about Luke's journey when the OT came out. Then it became Anakin's journey when prequels were released next. It seems the central character of the entire saga changes depending on what order you watch them, and it makes even less when you want to include the sequel trilogy in the mix.

[@True-Believer616]

"It was always Luke's story." That's the biggest point of all for me. So much of the prequels was done with the luxury of being able to expand on the original story. A story that was very beloved and just fine long before a prequel ever existed.

[@justinarzola4584]

The first six films are about Vader and his son.The sequels messed it up with ray by making her a skywalker despite no foreshadowing of such.

[@chancellor500]

Hey Thor, the Darth Plagueis Novel is easily my favorite book in all of Star Wars and I’m curious? How do you think the character should be handled if Disney was to ever canonize him?

[@TheIceCrypt]

There is no doubt in my mind that if we had gotten the prequels first they would’ve been vastly different films to what they are.

[@mariobadia4553]

I mean it does make sense because it puts context into everything that happened. You get to know who these characters are and why they're actually important. A lot of people don't understand they with no trilogy and it only makes sense to them once they have proper context

[@zigurdur92]

Nope if prequel came out before OT, there would not be OT because prequels would have flop. New Hope is much better film to start a franchise. Star Wars would have died with Attacks of Clones. instead of franchise getting the best film in world, Empire Strikes Back. It is the success of OT that made prequels possible.

[@lennyztrobos8678]

But that context is'nt nescessary for Lukes story. At worst it can serve as a distraction. We know that the galaxy is ruled by evil men in the form of an evil empire, and Luke is a backwater boy who wants to join the good fight against them. We don't need to know any more than that because Luke does'nt know any more than. IMO even now, knowing what Darth Vader was up to as a child or young man adds nothing to the story of Luke. (Side note: I don't think there's even a single character left alive by the end of OT who still remember the events of the prequels. Not counting R2 since he does'nt speak, matter or care)

[@JoRoq1]

@@lennyztrobos8678There are a few besides R2 - Mon Mothma and Ackbar, for example.

[@lennyztrobos8678]

@@JoRoq1 funny, I don't even remember them being in the prequels. Granted it's been a long time. 😛

[@JoRoq1]

@@lennyztrobos8678 Mon Mothma had a brief cameo appearance in ROTS (same actress as Rogue One and Andor). Ackbar didn’t appear in the prequels, but was established in TCW as having fought during the Clone Wars.

[@choreomaniac]

Anakin is mostly interesting in the prequels because we know he will become Vader. And it’s ridiculous to say that the OTHER seemed incomplete before the prequels. They were taught in film schools, used as examples in sceeenplay books, voted as the best trilogy in film, and were incredibly popular. Most thought it had a satisfying ending and everything was adequately explained. We didn’t need to know where Vader came from anymore than we now need to know where Schmi came from or see Yodas backstory.

[@puipuixproduction]

I showed to a friend the 6 films in order of released ane she was very excited and curious about star wars 3 because "why the stormtrooper are good guys here, what's going to happen to anakin?" Etc

[@Reishadowen]

My take: The original trilogy has mentions of things you can infer about without having seen them. The prequel trilogy has mentions of things that are like opening up into a "hey, remember this thing?" entrance. Also, Darth Vader being Anakin Skywalker is a gut-punch twist in ep.5, whereas the prequels are the long & slow tale of his descent, with intense foreshadowing everywhere of the eventual turn.

[@PPX14]

Very very good point and lends itself so well to the conundrum of the order in which a newcomer might best watch the films. They are Prequels, not just preceding films, and they provide supplementary context to the central adventure which is the OT, a backstory, rather than the beginning of the story. Especially as you say given the difference in scope of the two trilogies. The OT is a trilogy adventure. The PT is almost a saga unto itself really.

[@nBUMBA]

I believe the best viewing order for a newcomer is chronological 1-6. Or at the very least starting with ROTS 3-6. That’s what George Lucas claims is the modern intended watch order. And after watching first time viewers react to star wars on YT this absolutely appears to be the most enjoyable way to watch the series for the first time Mainly because, and this never occurred to me before i saw people on YT. But most people know the plot twist “luke i am your father” yet a surprising amount of people have no clue Anakin becomes Darth Vader and it always blows peoples minds when they piece it together watching ROTS. Most people who consume pop culture have heard of Darth Vader and know the famous line. But newcomers to the franchise are surprisingly in the dark about Anakin’s fall to darkness. And after hearing Palpatine call Anakin Vader for the first time this plot twist makes the fight with Obi Wan significantly more shocking as well

[@fazbrogaming7776]

Tbh TCW series was the first Star Wars I watched and is the reason I became a Star Wars fan in the first place, I watched all the movies after that in chronological order and it was great. I think the prequels don’t only expand the Star wars universe but they instead kinda contradict what happened in the OT. For example in he OT when Ben sees R2 he doesn’t recognize him despite all the adventures they had in TCWs and prequel movies, in episode 5 Ben’s force ghost tells Luke to go to Yoda (the Jedi master that instructed him) yet the prequels show us that it was Qui-Gon-Jin instead. R2 had Jet packs in the prequels for some reason, I wonder why he never used them in the OT.

[@Chosen_one_501]

Those aren’t contradictions tho. Ben did recognize r2, he just didn’t wanna say anything to compromise his goal. And Yoda did instruct Obi wan. Sure his personal master was qui Gon, but Yoda was the master to all. We even see proof since in AOTC Yoda was training classes full of kids.

[@fazbrogaming7776]

@@Chosen_one_501 what about R2 having Jet Packs in the prequels?

[@JoRoq1]

@@fazbrogaming7776The jet rockets can be reasoned away as the Rebels just not having the resources to keep the fuel tanks full.

[@JoRoq1]

@@Chosen_one_501The “Ben’s master” aspect is debatable. The crux of it is the line in ESB where he describes Yoda as “THE” master who trained him (implied as a sole master) instead of as “ONE OF” (implying he was trained by multiple masters). While we knew there had previously been more Jedi, only Yoda was claimed as having trained Obi-Wan. That can be explained away in several ways, including that mentioning or referencing other masters at that point would have been superfluous at best and Ben only had a short time to give his message. But it is still a notable change.

[@majinmoke]

The order I experienced Star Wars (the story of Anakin) was full of ups and downs. There’s the Anakin in my head cannon as I imagined after seeing the OT The Anakin presented to us in prequels that I thought was unlikeable (and not how I imagined which is part of the bias) And the Anakin from TCW which blew away the other two I had seen; and the one who now occupies my head cannon. I can’t imagine how I’d feel if I’d seen the prequels first

[@AnonimanPiotr]

I wonder what people thought about Vaders armor and injuries back in the OT era. What was their headcanon?

[@vetarlittorf1807]

In the novelization of Return of the Jedi, which came out in 1983, it was revealed that Vader received his injuries after falling in a river of lava. Revenge of the Sith stayed true to that concept with minor alterations.

[@PrincessFionaYT]

As a relatively young teenager when the first Star Wars came out I honestly didn’t think much about it. Vader was the bad guy but he wasn’t central to the story. He was almost a caricature. By the time Empire came out everybody knew the Darth Vader had fallen into a volcano and the helmet was a respirator that allowed him to breathe and the rest of the suit was his life support system. This was long before the Internet and I don’t know how everyone knew he fell into a volcano but everybody knew. The same way everybody knew about Richard Gere. It’s amazing how stuff got around long before the Internet era .

[@kimmomagic]

I was 10 when I saw Star Wars in 1977 and it was widely known that he'd been injured in a duel with Obi Wan at the edge of a lava pit. We speculated a lot about what it must have been like. I think that's why the prequels were such a let down for the original fans. They took all the mystery out of Vader's backstory and replaced it with overblown fight sequences and shoddy effects.

[@vetarlittorf1807]

@@kimmomagic Overblown? Shoddy effects? That duel was a visual masterpiece and the effects still hold up today.

[@PrincessFionaYT]

John Kimmons I couldn’t agree with you more. We don’t always need to know the origin of everything. Often times it robs things of the magic that they have through and imagination. This is worse when it is done without humanity. These were made when George and Marcia were splitting and I think his bitterness toward relationships definitely shows in his Scripps. He also lost his best advisor when it came to humanizing his creations. I think George was seduced by his own personal Darkside, his obsession with special effects. He wants me to comment that they don’t matter if there’s not a good story to tell with him and I think he lost his very own way. He creates great worlds but we can characters and he’s not all that solid on the story either. His creations are much better when they are collaborations. As auteur he’s not so good.

[@samuelbarber6177]

I feel like overall the entire saga would be looked at as worse. The originals would have dropped so many plots, shifted perspective and tone, and then treated multiple things as big reveals when the audience was already aware of them, such as the appearance of Jabba the Hutt, or Luke’s true parentage. I think the saga only really holds together now because we understand the prequels as being prequels about different characters it would be like if the flashback scenes in The Godfather Part II were instead their own film which preceded the original film, it just wouldn’t work as well narratively, or I guess for a more Star Wars example, it’s like going from the Original Trilogy to the Sequel Trilogy, where we’re now following different characters and it’s a different story with some overlapping elements. Assuming the Star Wars saga was episodes 4-9, then the storyline would probably only work properly if one viewed them as 7-9 and then 4-6 as being the prequels.

[@michaelstrachan1185]

If it came out 1-6 then I don't think Darth Vader would be such an inconic villain. 'I am you father' wouldn't have anywhere near as much as an impact as it did or would the moment at the end of Revenge of the Sith when you get that chilling moment of hearing him breathing, that moment NEEDS the set up from the OT.

[@jaystapes3086]

IMO the best way to show Star Wars to a newcomer is 4, 5, (2, and 3 as flash backs) then finish it with 6. That way after the big reveal of "I am your father" you actually get to see Anakins journey, and 6 is his redemption with Luke. It makes both the OT and prequels very enjoyable. If you really want you can watch 9 after 6 to see Palpatines final arc.

[@Cloudkicker64]

Hey Thor, first I want to tell you how much I enjoy most of your videos: thank you for all the time & effort you put into them. Second which Star Wars novel/novel series is your favorite?

[@Angry_Squirrel555]

Hey Thor. Even after the prequels I never thought about the original trilogy being all about Anakin’s story arc. I still looked at them as being about the Skywalker lineage story arc. Anakin was essentially a failed interpretation of the prophecy as he was going to be directly responsible for bringing balance to the force, whereas it was ultimately his offspring which would do so. So the prequels we’re about Anakin and his fall from greatness but he left a new hope (see what I did there) in the form of Luke that was destined to become the chosen one which was covered by the original trilogy. So it’s more like a two-parter storyline.

[@Sean-dw1dc]

Hey Thor, speaking of movies. I would love to see a sort of tier list of the best to worst Star Wars movies and tv shows in your opinion!

[@773Spair]

Thinking of Rogue One, I wonder what the reaction would be to the order of release being 1, 2, 4, 5, 6...and then 3.

[@carson766]

Hey Thor will you be continuing the kenobi series rewrites

[@istari0]

Hey Thor, how about a video on the changes each trilogy would need had they been released in the opposite order?

[@Joshuafukumoto]

Hey Thor! Would love to see you fan-cast the trilogies if the release orders had been flipped :)

[@lenircotia]

Brilliant observation! Thank you Thor! Could you make a video on "What is the true way to watch the Star Wars movies (I-VI)?" and what way do you prefer watching them. Thank you!

[@bennettstokes195]

I think 🤔 something I find interesting in the original trilogy is just how much focus is put on Vader. We get more information on him as a character than Luke ever did. And as a consequence he is one of the most iconic villains ever

[@paveldatsyuk8268]

The prequels story is amazing

[@Lord-Emperor-Vader]

The films also would have a bunch of plot holes since we would know Luke and Leia were related when they kiss on the first viewing.

[@jacobmetz3109]

It has been a while since I read the books, but I had always been under the impression that Luke's mother was a member of the Fallanassi-the prequels changed that, as well as many other things that the EU had established.

[@Alec11_43]

When expanding a universe, there comes the risk of frustrating/alienating some fans over inevitable changes, explanations/origins, and recontextualization; they can clash with initial ideas/assumptions that they became so attached to. All you can do is try your best at making them seem like natural additions and respect the original core(keep things organized). In other words, you probably shouldn’t undo literally everything that came before for little to no good reason, like having the previous villain suddenly come back and easily destroy the previous heros and all their hard earned accomplishments.

[@emperorcubone]

I agree with all your points; so how come it doesn't work for the sequels? In theory it's likewise a simple story that you can just go along with and have fun without context, but they just don't pull it off. They're missing some secret sauce but it seems more than just "poor writing"...

[@theashpilez]

The OT was re released repeatedly with minor cg changes. I distinctly remember the milking of the cow over and over again quite saddening...

[@adamn.4615]

I think of it in the context of what if “the Jar-Jar movie” was the world’s first exposure to the Star Wars saga. If Episode I would have gotten that much criticism without being part of an already familiar brand, it’s possible none of the other movies would have never even been made.

[@rebellion-starwars]

As someone who can recognize myself as a fan who watched OT for 100 times before the release of the prequels I think that I agree with you completely. If the movies are flipped then they should redone OT as a buildup and yeah you are correct George never had figured out, when I hear from the fans why they didn't follow GL story for the sequels I always answer that George never had that story developed, he didn't want to do it but he wrote something just to sell it, it was in his contract.

[@taunttitan1714]

What's funny is I don't have issues with the whole "Chosen One" thing is star wars but the issue I have is with the fans because they act like just because Anakin is the chosen one he's if you ask them "The Most Important" character is star wars when there's hundreds of thousands of years that happened before Anakin was even born then after he died there's even more after him

[@Narco42]

OT coming out first is perfect. The way the ST ended was a flawless fit into the OT. As an OT viewer we are ignorant to the events before hand and we are thrust into the same perspective of those who have been living in the Empire for almost 20 years. It's a totalitarian society. Information was censored. lose ends were hushed up. Most of the people who remember the "old times" knew enough to keep their mouths shut. It's great to see how much knowledge was lost after the Empire took over (kinda like Dinsey now). flipping the trilogies would just kill the perfect story telling vibe that the OT was.

[@miragewizard]

It would be amazing to go back to the mid 1990s and just have a discussion about Star Wars up to that point.

[@EASY4V1]

The originals were a set of it's own. When Phantom Menace came out, there was so much hype, I remember buying a Razor Scooter with Sith Lighting. I also remember the hate it got while it came out, and got compared to the original harshly. It's looked upon favorably now by the masses, but at the beginning, even the nerds didn't like it. Too much CGI, not enough puppets. The casting of a colored Jedi. The controversy that Natalie Portman wasn't Star Wars Enough for the movies... There was hate. It just got quieter with time.

[@jblonde711]

I still say the "Avatar [The Last Airbender] Order" is the best way - 4, 5. 1, 2, 3, 6. You still start in the middle of the conflict, and at the darkest point, you learn the backstory of WHY things are the way they are. Then we move to the ultimate confrontation with the question now weighing more heavily that it would have otherwise - will Luke fall as we just saw his father tragically do? Skip Solo entirely, watch the end of Rogue One if you want, but they're Frankensteined on to the Lucas trilogies pretty haphazardly.

[@rafikshaheed4271]

Episode III hits harder if the prequels came out first. Anakin turning to the dark side is more surprising especially given his status as the chosen one, how the tragedy plays out is unknown, Palatine being the Sith Lord is not obvious (in Ep II Dooku mentions that Sith Lord is hiding in the Republic, but that can be seen as him lying to create an atmosphere of distrust), will Obi-Wan survive the duel at the end of the film. You also see Anakin from at childhood, and at adolescence; giving you a greater insight into his character and making you care more about Vader. Going into ep 4-6 you understand the state of the galaxy more clearly. When Luke is tempted, the viewer may start to feel worried that he is going down a similar path to his father and understand what he looses if does so. Obi-Wan’s insistence that Anakin is more machine than man makes is more impactful as you saw him sever his bond with Anakin, clearly observed Anakin lost in his ways. That being said, if the prequels were made first, people would get bogged down with contradictions like the length of Luke’s training. There may also have been a tonal disconnect between the two trilogies and it being so unlike each other in scope and in style can be jarring for some.

[@englishlady9797]

Kind of like how Tolkien wrote. When The Hobbit first came out, Tolkien was not planning to write The Lord of the Rings. The story wasn't even in his mind. In the original version of The Hobbit, the Ring Bilbo finds has nothing to do with Sauron, and Gollum basically hands it over willingly. Tollers only wrote LOtR because his publisher were asking for a sequel to The Hobbit. The work that he spent his life on, and which the Lord of the Rings *really* came out of was The Silmarillion. It has more in common with the Silm, and more characters & themes in common with that book than The Hobbit. Which is one reason why I sometimes suggest people read The Silmarillion before The Lord of the Rings, because I consider that to be the true prequel. The Hobbit is just the story of how Bilbo got the Ring.

[@gnc623]

I am a prequel lover. In fact, I prefer the prequels as a trilogy over the original. (Although I don't prefer every single individual prequel film over every individual OT film). Even though the prequels came out as I was growing up, I saw all the OT films first, fell in love with them, and then loved the prequels, as well. But from what I have observed personally, the people who have never seen Star Wars and then begin with Phanton Menace, very rarely get into the franchise. I think this is largely because the OT works better as an introduction to the franchise than the prequels, and I think that is largely due to the acting and chemistry of the OT characters. The story is more engaging and easier to follow. And I think the prequels are better than the OT in several ways: music, effects, world building, and the prequels still have some amazing acting in their own rights (e.g. Ewen McGregor and Ian McDiarmid), I do think the story and characters in the OT are slightly more engaging and draw people in a lot better. The prequels work best as an expansion of the story rather than an intro to the franchise.

[@petersanzen4106]

I would have loved to have great story and connection between the trilogies. It would have been so easy to make the prequels great but Lucas wanted to do something new. This was the reason I was glad that Disney bought it. I did not want Lucas anywhere near star wars after the prequels.

[@king-of-draic8745]

I use to think the Star Wars movies came out in chronological order since they were titled, well 1 to 6, but when I got older I learned it was 4-6 than 1-3 that came out.

[@laurencesadd9048]

I have a question. Do you think the Darth Vader father Twist is as impactful to modern audiences as it did to older audiences seeing the originals for the first time? Just because the last two videos you have mentioned that you should watch the originals first for this twist but I honestly don't think it impacts younger audiences like it did to older ones. Because even if you didn't watch the prequels first, never looked up star wars or just stumbled across it over the internet and you had never been told about it by someone which is quite common when talking about star wars. There is the fact that lots of other films and TV shows have done similar plot twists to try and get that OMG moment which would clearly make the Darth Vader one less impactful. I do agree it was a big deal for the time but that doesn't mean it works anymore especially when it feels like a common fact nowadays. To me it will always be an important part of movie history but I don't think it works as an amazing plot twist anymore sorry.

[@joeyjojojrshabadoo7462]

Machete viewing is the best order. (Episode IV, V, then II II and finally VI) notably you can just skip Phantom menace. Nothing wrong it just isn't particularly relevant overall.

[@gnaryanus113001]

I'm old enough to have watched the originals for years before the prequels, but I do think it's better to be seen in chronological order more than the release order.

[@Chaos-Clips]

I fully agree with this conclusion

[@nichlaschristensson1055]

Hi Thor..... Just to continue this line of question. What if the sequels came first. And then they made 1--6 as a prequel to them

[@worstwordmonger]

I do feel like this question is very hard to answer, but I lean more towards 1-6 is the best order. I grew up the same as you, seeing the OT then the prequels, but can you really say Revenge of the Sith is a good place to end the series? Episode 3 ends on a very low note, and then there’s the OT to pull it back up to get to the happy ending in Return of the Jedi

[@fazbrogaming7776]

I wonder what Star wars would have been like if the Sequels came first.

[@acidbracelet3697]

Bring back the battle of heros and villains. That was my favorite series on this channel

[@Waterboyofsuperman]

I think George Lucas called them all one story, all one movie, so I wager he’d be in favor of watching them starting with episode I. But yes, retconning is a thing, and it certainly happens with Star Wars, including with the prequels. Who knows what the prophecy even really says as I don’t think it’s ever been directly quoted. I find episode II teeth grindingly irritating on multiple levels, but oddly enough, I find episode I enjoyable, and agree the revenge of the sith is just on another level; really well done.

[@Cheesehead_Caleb]

Hey Thor, given your dislike for Star Wars: The Last Jedi, what are your thoughts on his other work? I just watched Glass Onion the other day and I found myself unable to like it just because I knew Johnson had directed it.

[@x-winger9387]

I think if The Phantom Menace had been made with 1970s technology with same budget as A New Hope that would have been then end of Star Wars

[@ariesroc]

It'd be impossible to make the movie. This is based on saying that tech that would allow it to happen existed.

[@x-winger9387]

@@ariesroc if the tech existed for A New Hope that existed for TPM George wouldn’t have made ANH the way he did. We got the movie we did in 77 because of limited SFX tech and it was still ground breaking. We got the TPM because of the tech that was available.

[@ariesroc]

@@x-winger9387 The actual tech itself (motion control with blue screen and models) wasn't ground breaking as it already existed. It was the way they were able to do it in volume and Lucas' process of quick cuts to hide all the flaws. Looking at the early drafts of ANH Lucas would have done a very similar movie but with a lot of those elements that he couldn't do then like the Imperial prison planet of Alderaan (later Cloud City) and expansive space ports. He could have actually shown the planet Alderaan (not seen until ROTS) and have a proper battle of Yavin like we saw in Return of the Jedi. In TPM's case the tech available was there because Lucas had ILM actually push the technology to get the tools he needed to make them such as digital composting, CGI and working with other companies to get to HD video to shoot with. If Lucas had the money to get what he wanted done in the first place then the entire OT would have been more or less the SE's in the first place. If he had better tech then he would have expanded on that like having Coruscant in the OT. It always existed. He just couldn't go there or Alderaan or Kashyyyk or really anywhere actually exotic hence the very basic sand, snow, swamp and forest settings.

[@williamlatham9246]

I know he didn't mention the sequels, and maybe you'll find this funny: What if someone new to Star Wars starts by watching 7,8,9 and is like "I have no idea what I just watched" so they view 4,5,6 and is like "oh these were like what I just watched only much better" and then they see 1,2,3 and are like "oh now I get it, but I could've done without 7,8,9! 😉

[@redstratus97]

If Episode 1 came out first, it would have done well at the box office due to its special effects and visuals. But I feel the Jar Jar hate would be more severe to the point that many would find the movie very annoying and silly and stupid in some points. The lore is not there that we all know so even though there is something to look forward to in future movies, I feel the majority would write it off as a kids film and not have a connection that they should. I do feel Episode 1 would still make a big profit and it would be enough for Episode 2 to be made but here is where I think it gets killed off due to all the viewers at the time hating the acting and the fan base being split on how Yoda fights. The special effects would still be amazing but at this point it would be a “been here done that” feel and not be enough to carry 2 to a profit. Here is where it would sadly end.

[@ToqTheWise]

I don't think it's realistic to say that the movies would be unchanged if they'd been released in this order. The OT would have changed significantly and ROTS would have ended differently. The only thing I could use to explain the original ending in this timeline would be Lucas's divorce because that would have been the writing of an extremely bitter and pessimistic man. "All is lost except a glimmer of hope." No, I think that Anakin wouldn't have turned to the dark side and that Darth Vader would have been an entirely different character if not written out in favor of Maul. I think both Luke and Leia would have been Jed raised by their mother on Naboo. Ben Kenobi would have been more like Yoda in the OT. In my opinion, A New Hope would have opened with Luke and Leia with their father to Dagobah to meet and train with Master Yoda. On the way, their ship would be boarded by Darth Maul. Darth Maul would insist there were Jedi aboard the ship and demand to know where they were hiding them. He would take Senator Organa prisoner and as he searched the ship, find Brea (Padme). Anakin would try to save her by fighting Maul and eventually he would be bested. Maul would take Anakin and the senators prisoner while Luke and Leia escaped with the droids, landing on Tatooine. There they would have found Obi-Wan and told him what had happened. They would meet Han and Chewie and go to the Death Star. This time they'd split up; Obi-Wan would go to save the senators and the twins, Han, and Chewie would go to save Anakin. As they were leaving, Obi-Wan would get into a duel with Maul and the Sith would take his life. Anakin would try to rush out to avenge his master's death but Leia would hold him back and drag him inside the ship. Once aboard, Bael would reveal that Obi-Wan had found the secret plans to the Death Star. They would take the plans back to the Rebel Alliance and prepare a battle plan. Anakin would allow Luke to go on the trench run alone to prove himself as a pilot. He would succeed in the end and blow up the Death Star and everyone would celebrate.

[@laurencesadd9048]

In my opinion if the prequels could come out first, the originals would not be liked at all because the only reason we accept the originals as they are is because they came out first. If the prequels came out first, most people would want the prequel story to expand in the originals so if the originals came out after, I think most people would be disappointed with the lack of world building (a bit like one of the main complaints with the sequali)but I also think because the story is a lot more basic it is harder to sell to a newer audience(except for some kids who might of saw it in cinema) unlike the prequels which has found an audience because it is complex and more in depth and that is possibly why some people prefer them to the originals if you see the prequels first. If the prequels did come out first which I think they could then the originals need to have some major changes in my opinion to expand on the prequels but certain can stay the same just hope they remove the kiss with Luke and Leia.

[@masterrserch3971]

While I agree, watch Rig-Trig ("rij-trij") 1st, then prequels, then Rogue One, there is a cut I read about that is very interesting, but it is for a VERY specific audience (ps: let's just forget about the SEquels entirely at this point lmao... these SW noobs become die hards & want more, they can watch the Disney shows, and all the animated shit, while waiting for Ahsoka and Mando 3, etc., etc., like the rest of us maniacs 😆)... But the cut I'm talking about is one I'm actually surprised by how many don't know about it (it's not like 1 out of 10 know this, but maybe like 50/50), THE HATCHET CUT, which is quite the silly name, IMO. But like I said, it's a VERY SPECIFIC audience cut, in that it's probably mostly for kids, who haven't seen SW yet, but also aren't too young to comprehend a good, connected plot, and are patient enough to holdout on the answer to a "mystery/cliffhanger." Rarely do you find an adult who has NO CLUE AT ALL about STAR Wars, or more specifically that Vader is Luke's pop, and even that Leia is his twin.... So that said, if you don't know, the order goes like this: Rogue One Star Wars Empire Strikes Back Phantom Menace Attack of the Clones Revenge of the Sith Return of the Jedi Sure, it may be jarring for some to split up the originals & their lesser than "special" special effects when compared to the prequels lol, but im sure you can get what the whole point of it is: to tell the story of Anakin Skywalker, to someone who has no clue who he is, and to have to wait around and see just if the scary, evil Darth Vader is telling the truth, or if he's lying & Luke mustn't be fooled by the Empire, underestimating their power!!! It's quite a cool/interesting cut, IMO, & while I have yet to meet someone I can show it to, I'm just waiting for that day I either show a niece or nephew the hatchet cut before their dang mom or dad do lol, or meet the rare "what's a Anakin?," Star Wars CLUELESS adult, who loves movies and will give a 15 hour or so movie marathon a shot lol!

[@domino_201]

I think the bottom line is that watching them in chronological order ruins the theatrical experience, and watching them by release date makes things feel tonally clunky. Watch them by 4,5,1,2,3,6, and you get both the theatrical experience (arguably a better one) and a great tone and pace?

[@petersanzen4106]

An interesting question for all. If names were changed in the prequels, would you have guessed the two trilogies were connected?

[@joshuamueller3206]

The originals are a standard hero's journey, the prequels are a Shakespearean tragedy. The less optimistic tone of the prequels would not have been a good launching point for the franchise. Plus had TPM come out in 1977 the prequels would not have provided the hope for the future America needed at the end of the fourth socio-economic cycle.

[@darrengaroutte7744]

I'd say if the order of release started with episode one then star wars would be another failed sci-fi movie from the 70s. People ragged on episode 1 for being boring, it was only the fact that the movie had the rub from episodes 4-6 that made it a success, and the fandom giving their trust to George that we would get three movies that would somehow pull all this off. If you could find a person who knew nothing of Star Wars and showed them Phantom Menace without letting them know there were any more movies I doubt they'd ask for a sequel.

[@beatrixwickson8477]

If the PT came out first, instead of asking "why do the Jedi all wear Tattooine hermit clothes?", we would only be asking "why is uncle Owen wearing Jedi robes?" Star Wars sure does make you think!

[@j.r.1210]

I agree that the story told in the OT certainly makes sense on its own, BUT there are some elements present that are mostly unexplained, and thus could seem random or arbitrary to a fastidious viewer. For example, why is Vader "more machine than man"? Being half-droid is hardly normal, and might seem to call for an explanation. And how did a guy so evil end up with two kids? And given that the Force is obviously incredibly powerful, how is it that most people either don't believe in it or have never heard of it? So I can understand why some fans might have had a few nagging questions until they saw the prequels. However, I believe you are correct that a release order of 1-3, then 4-6, would have been disappointing to many people, at least with the films as they now exist. All the "dropped" storylines and themes would have prompted howls of dismay.

[@choreomaniac]

The OT is a classic Hero’s journey with Luke as the hero. The Prequels recontextualize the Saga to center on Anakin or arguably the Skywalker father and son line. That’s one reason why the sequels failed. If the 9 film saga is about Anakin, we’ll, he’s absent completely in the final third of the story. If the story is about Luke, then it is a sad one since he is absent in the first and bitter in the second and mostly absent in the third. I’d it is about both Luke and Anakin, we have a similar problem. It would have been interesting if the sequels had rexontextualized the saga as centering in Palpatine. Make Luke be absent because he senses Palpatine is alive but everyone else thinks he is crazy and obsessed. Make Rey Palpatine grandchild AND vessel for him to return in corporeal form. Should she be killed to prevent Palpatine from returning? She has no powers and is no Jedi. The first movie ends with Palpatine proven to still exist. The second reveals his plan involving Rey. The third is how they resolve it.

[@sg7335]

Well,had the prequels come out first,then the big reveal of Darth Vader being Luke’s father in Empire would have lost its surprise and weight.When it was originally seen,there was the possibility he was lying,but we didn’t know.We had to sit with that for 3 years,until we got the truth in Jedi.That would all be lost if the Prequels had come first.

[@ariesroc]

The thought experiments of a PT first like this are too narrow. Would it have been exactly the same movies even if it were at all possible to make them? Of course not but that like saying that the OT could have been done only one way. If Lucas knew for certain he was making a second movie then does he kill Obi-Wan off? Probably not. If he already had Vader as Luke's father and Leia as his sister from the start would the movies be the same? Certainly not. Anakin is probably 18 not 9 if he starts with TPM. Obi-Wan is either Anakin's older "brother" like Biggs was to Luke or as in the TPM first draft where he's basically the AOTC Obi-Wan but earlier in TPM with Qui-Gon his old master. The one who gets killed by Maul. Basically Qui-Gon in TPM is the original Obi-Wan. At one point Lucas even was going to call him Obi-Wan, have him get killed off to shock everyone then the young "Qui-Gon" would take on Obi-Wan's name in his honor.

[@zigurdur92]

The problem with PM is lack of main characters, that kind of film would not have worked as opening film of franchise. Plus political plot of PM would have destroyed any possibility of future films and with characters like Jar Jar binks it would have been the end of the franchise.

[@ariesroc]

@@zigurdur92 The main characters are great. The political plot is very basic and people would totally love Jar Jar Binks in 1977 as the fool character he is.

[@MechaTrekAD]

Personally I feel the Prequels make the Original make LESS sense. The Prequels screw with many of the elements that were the only elements we knew for 16 years.

[@zachcurtis1283]

It's best that they came out the way they did. The scale of the prequels wouldn't have been able to be executed very well with the technology of the time of the OT release era. The OT was a smaller scale, more character driven narrative. And Vader wouldn't have been as scary and mysterious of a villain if you saw Anakin's story first. Just my opinion though.