WOKE: The Problem with Activist Characters

[@HeyRowanEllis]

🌈 Pre-order my book HERE & QUEER: smarturl.it/HereAndQueer It's a guide to life for queer girls - including advice, information, and personal experiences around everything from sex and relationships to history and community! ALSO the first 50 people to email their pre-order book receipt (& postal address) to [e-mail] will receive a personalised, signed copy! 🌈💙

[@MagnoliaPantherWoman]

Congratulations on your book!

[@dragonetafireball]

I pre-ordered it the second I spotted it last month

[@Karl671]

I love your channel 😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😘😍😍😍

[@ConstanzaRigazio]

I need a book like this but for demisexual girls.

[@HeyRowanEllis]

@@ConstanzaRigazio ​ i am an ace lesbian - as asexuality is def part of the book :)

[@Tareltonlives]

I feel it's because they're written by people who don't believe in the causes, so activism is more often played for laughs.

[@trixxartarchive7705]

It kind if reminds me of those really bad activist adds.

[@flask223]

Good point

[@Tareltonlives]

Here's an example: In Harry Potter, Hermione Granger wants to liberate an entire species of beings from abject slavery. It's played as a joke- the organization is called SPEW, it's just knitting socks, and it accomplishes nothing. And given what we know about J K Rowling, that makes sense.

[@4Tom4lepus4]

@@Tareltonlives The funniest part about that is the fact that it had the absolute contrary effect on me. The whole thing is played as a joke and we're supposed to see Hermione as being annoying about it, yet I literally lost respect for every other character for not supporting the cause.

[@Tareltonlives]

@@4Tom4lepus4 Same

[@IReadTooMuchCrap]

I'm sleep deprived, but the "I'm so over this Toxic Masculinity in this hallway" bit had me rolling with laughter.

[@neoqwerty]

I'm now using "I'm so over this toxic masculinity" as a synonym for "stop your dick-measuring contest" because of that line

[@lindenmanmax]

I have a hunch the actress had to go through a few takes before she could contain her own laughter.

[@Eric_The_Eccentric]

They should make it a recurring joke and shoot another scene using "I'm so over this mansplaining in this auditorium"

[@lilred5515]

@@Eric_The_Eccentric I have had it with this mother f*cking patriarchy on this mother f*cking plane!

[@themyofmy]

spiritual successor to "i can feel god in this chili's tonight"

[@KatieBadenhorst]

I feel like the only time an activist is allowed to talk sense is when they're the villain. They'll usually throw in some great dialogue, only to finish with "and that's why we need to kill everyone".

[@zkme2734]

this is why an antihero or a villain becomes more popular than the hero

[@qwertyhughman7587]

The Marvel Cinematic Universe's version of Erik Killmonger in a nutshell.

[@MicahMicahel]

you're ignoring that we have non-activist characters saying the things activists say. Activists basically parrot Hollywood talking points because activism has turned into corporatism. Basically activists are saying what all the corporations are telling us. So if people find the corporations annoying, obviously the activists won't be charming.. The writers are activists but it's hard to make morally outraged people fun or interesting.

[@KatieBadenhorst]

@@MicahMicahel I might agree with you, but these kind of "activist phases" are usually really shallow oversimplifications of progressive beliefs. I'm thinking of all those straw feminist characters especially. I think corporations almost always misrepresent what activists actually say and want.

[@MicahMicahel]

@@KatieBadenhorst There's a back and forth as soon as Corporations or power striuctures get involved. Look at Christianity for example. 500 years ago it was welcomed by people because of a reason that nobody even remembers anymore, the idea of consent. The 'church' was coopted and turned Christianity into an authoritarian regime that contradicted the bible so much they made it impossible for people to read it unless they understood Latin, a dead language that only the authorities knew. Years later the 'karens' were the Christians telling people what to do when Jesus told them to actually not judge and consent is the greatest value. TEH good ideas like consent just became the western way. What are progressive beliefs? They seem more like rival churches to me. The right follows Martin Luther King Jr, but gets called racist by the left who follow Malcolm X. Both sides have their racists and grifters. Side note: The Ukraine army released completely racist and ISlamophobic hate which is censored. We're celebrating Ukraine but we might be strengthening an actual Nazi uprising. The actual Nazis seem to be involved. So much propaganda the truth is completely missing. I don't think anyone is advocating anything evil in the west but our lack of understand ing is never admitted. I think we might be creating the same thing we did with the Taliban. That's not just a side issue. Activists are people that are absolutely sure they are right about heir solution and they tend to demonize people that have different solutions, but when you actually meet the 'demons' you find out hey are just people trying to figure things out too. Whenever a side is being demonized you have to be suspicious. Activists tend to have a collective group mind whether you are tailing about today's activists or yesterday's CHriostains. This idea that people that are questioning the orthodoxy or narrative are demons creates a false reality. As soon as censorship is applied, it's a sign that everything you think you believe is subverted in ways you aren't able to understand unless you ignore nuance. Any activist group will be co opted by the powers that be. This is the pattern of history. Activists can only get excited when all the nuance is taken out because once the nuance is added they will cease to be activists because th situation will become more complicated.. to complicated to 'act.'

[@yaz_skate]

Activist characters always feel so hollow when they're written by big studios. its almost like they don't want to portray a character positively that would actively oppose their institutions (aka capitalism)

[@deprogramme369]

agree /,:

[@nanamiharuka3269]

right, plus its hard to differentiate the intentions of actually wanted to portray social issues and just wanting brownie points and praise for just spewing woke terms with nothing else behind it. if they arent supporting this issues in other ways besides having a character support them then it rings hollow

[@imjustasconfusedasyou]

or they try to use buzzwords like toxic masculinity and stuff like that. they’re making half assed characters that talk about bringing down the stuff the makers are. it’s just- do hollow and fake

[@niklasmolen4753]

This is true of most characters, so it's not unique to activists.

[@jackieroberts2625]

Why would they when capitalism benefits them? The only way we can get authentic stories is thru creators who care and those don't always get the financial drive they need

[@maleineperle1770]

The depiction of Hermione's pro-elves activism has always disturbed me in HP.

[@HeyRowanEllis]

this is a whole fucking video on its own lol

[@maleineperle1770]

@@HeyRowanEllis one that I would be happy to watch, were you to make it ;)

[@greygoose8803]

the youtuber shaun does a pretty solid discussion of this in his recent harry potter video.

[@maleineperle1770]

@@greygoose8803 Thanks for the rec, will check it out!

[@malloryanderson724]

Probably because it was supposed to. Hermione barely even actually sat down and talked with the elves she was trying to represent. Let's face it ... she was really annoying.

[@shockingheaven]

Activist characters will only feel real when they're written by people who actually believe in those causes

[@goawayleavemealone2880]

Or when they stop pushing causes that have minimal support because they're trendy causes, but not worthwhile ones... insert anything that was birthed on Tumblr and moved over to Twitter.

[@tesso.6193]

"Sorry to bother you" is just PERFECT on this. The fight for worker rights is never the joke, it's validity or worth is never questioned. Because It's an American film I was waiting for the "it's finding troubles where none exists" attitude but it never came. It helps that Boots Riley is a communist.

[@timcombs2730]

The problem is that they care too much and over do it on the virtue signal

[@relaxingsounds1386]

the causes themselves are dumb

[@Ri57490]

@@relaxingsounds1386 some of them are good causes, but not all.

[@dragonetafireball]

I do dislike some people who treat life like a narrative and deem me “to intersectional” like if I was fictional I’d be called unrealistic but I exist and I don’t get people expect me *a real person* to just reduce the number of traits I have that are marginalised.

[@citruslatafolia877]

i feel this sm, i hate how people who are oppressed due to more than one part of their identity are treated. we are real people and not just trying to be as marginalised as possible by making up being queer or trans or working class etc.

[@clairecordell2461]

@@citruslatafolia877 I'm wondering why you view working class people as "marginalised" when they represent the majority ? : )

[@citruslatafolia877]

@@clairecordell2461 my understanding of the word marginalised and feel free to correct me on this is to not have a lot of power in a society due to systemic oppression. there’s class-based oppression which debilitates the working class and tries to keep the rich richer and the poor poorer. this is my current understanding of it but if i’m wrong or if anyone has a different opinion, i’d appreciate hearing it. thanks for asking :)

[@drasco61084]

@@clairecordell2461 People tending to be marginalized in society by their identities has to do with class, being marginalized means something material.

[@DarkPsychoMessiah]

@@clairecordell2461 It's another way of saying poor people

[@Princess_Weekes]

This has always bothered me. I always think of the lesbian character in Legally Blonde and it is so cringe. Great video as always!

[@braedenlemasters6550]

she is literally 1000000% accurate to real life tho

[@jp9707]

@@braedenlemasters6550 practically everyone I know is a feminist and I've never met anyone like her. The people who think every feminist is like that usually haven't actually gotten to know any feminists. But they usually DO spend a lot of time around people complaining about how stupid feminists are.

[@music_YT2023]

Sophie from Mars (KZbinr) has been really pivotal in showcasing the footwork necessary for trans activism. It is interviews, arranging marches, getting petitions going, making speeches. It is a staggering amount of work made easier with a group of committed people; their detailed accounting of the nitty gritty bits of activism that are often glossed over in movie and tv depictions brings visibility and understanding to those outside of the community.

[@marocat4749]

She is on twitch too, and yes that good from what bit she makes visible. And how depressing the situation in trf island is.

[@KittyKatKatrinaAndCo]

Where did she put that detailed work? I'm asking because I'm going to be putting in a lot of work at my local level and every tool on my toolbox will be necessary. Thank you in advance.

[@music_YT2023]

@@KittyKatKatrinaAndCo In the "Organising Interviews" and "Public Speaking" playlists on their YT channel.

[@KittyKatKatrinaAndCo]

@@music_YT2023 thank you.

[@Sam_on_YouTube]

Those are all tools. The starting point is in developing a theory of change that can work and then setting about fulfilling the process of creating that change. All those things you mention can be tools to create change in some circumstances but may be completely useless in others. The real work that Sophie showcases in her interviews is built on effective activism, or, to use the term most who do it professionally use, organizing. Personally, I like the term activism, but many who do it professionally divide the terms "activist" and "organizer" and STRONGLY favor organizing.

[@KarlSnarks]

I'm glad you brought up Pride (such a sweet movie) and its unfortunate betrayal of lesbian activism. The real-life people the characters were based on, even said that that was one of the least true-to-life parts of the movie. The actual group had no animosity towards the lesbian group and actually worked together most of the time. Also, when watching that part of Queer as Folk when I was a teen, it really made me feel like a dick for often looking through the lens of "we're just like you" .. Where I live, marriage equality was already established by that time (recognized since 2001), but there was still sometimes a sentiment of "I'm okay with gays, as long as they aren't flamboyant".

[@nanamiharuka3269]

after abortion was all but banned here in Texas, I don’t take any progressive, policies that we think can never be undone for granted. If i’ve learned anything in the past few years is that A LOT of progress can be undone

[@drawdrawjessi1593]

@nour nour Ooook….Can you take your sermon to a Christian church, thanks.

[@zkme2734]

afghanistan rn

[@lessevilnyarlathotep1595]

@@drawdrawjessi1593 girl, that's a muslim

[@That_One_Xatu]

@nour nour No thanks, hell's more my kind of afterlife. Thanks for the offer though!

[@sundalosketch4769]

Which is why it's really important that we do have people who actively fight for this kind of stuff even if a majority can't fully understand it. If nobody keeps the iron wall of good progress fresh and strong, we'd be sent back to the racist, sexist & queerphobic old days thanks to the "living fossils" of human beings wanting to force everyone into their comfort zone.

[@SabrinaRina]

Moxy might be the most real depiction of activism based on your summary. A black character started something, inspired, but the aesthetic of a white character got made the head of the movement. That's very very sad to acknowledge inspiration by a POC, but paint a story that the white character really had the ingenuity to enact change. Like the black best friend trope. She helps boost her white friend... But has no goals or challenges herself, just an argument with their friend. All style, what the media triumphs black people in particular for, but no substance, not the main character.

[@wesss9353]

Don't be afraid to look up Thomas Sowell

[@unknown-vr3dp]

Moxie*

[@thegayghost872]

Disney's Zombies is a good example of the "good activist bad activist" trope. It's a very unsubtle metaphor for civil rights that uses zombies in place of black people. The main character and "good activist" is Zed, who basically wants the zombies to conform and integrate with human society but only because he wants to play football, and the "bad activist" is Eliza (coincidentally the only zombie played by a non-white person) who protests unfair treatment of zombies and doesn't like humans

[@mikeymullins5305]

oh my god i can’t beileve someone else saw that nonsense i watched that movie and was like hold on a minute what

[@neigeepierrot4694]

Oh my god I sensed that too but I wasn’t sure anyone else did it’s interesting what zed and elizas character suggest about civil rights

[@satur9starchild]

Oh my god!!! In college a bunch of my Disney Adult hallmates were obsessed with that movie and watched it at least once a month. They convinced me to watch it with them one time and I had to get up and leave halfway through bc it was such a poorly executed and racist metaphor and I could feel my blood starting to boil. Curse you for reminding me of its existence 😅

[@deathsheadhawkmoths]

In the second movie Zed actually confronts his internalized “monsterphobia” and realizes that he’s harming his community by expecting everyone to assimilate. Eliza’s more radical view is portrayed in a good light and Zed ends up listening to her and coming to a place of reclamation, where instead of saying “those people are monsters, I’m not like them, I’m normal” he says “we’re monsters, we’re different, and we still deserve rights.” I’m not saying that Zombies isn’t at all problematic in terms of its portrayal of minorities, but I think Zed’s character journey (summed up in the lyric “started from the bottom then became the problem”) is actually pretty good and realistic especially through a queer lens.

[@AnnieEllora]

Ohmygosh I have such a love for Zombies and how flawed its metaphor is - The second movie goes into Zed’s internalised racism/xenophobia (“zombiephobia/werewolfphobia lol), and Imo Eliza’s activism is portrayed positively!

[@normal6483]

When it comes to poorly written activists, I think Hermione from the Harry Potter books takes the cake. She was at the center of an entire subplot about how activists are cringey and gross, and her cause was... abolitionism. She was standing up against chattel slavery inside of her school. And not only was not a single human on her side, Rowling even portrayed most of the *elves* as being pro-slavery. I always thought that arc was going to go somewhere, but she just ended it on "slavery is fine if you're nice" and never made any mention of it being abolished or even reformed. The way Rowling went from "slavery is bad" in book 2 to "slavery is fine when the good guys do it and whiny abolitionists need to stop being so preachy and shrill" in book 4 is such a wild turn, and really foreshadowed how she was only ever going to get worse. I mean she started off bad with the goblins and with appropriating Gaelic religions for the aesthetic, but it's still kind of amazing to look back an see her progressively get more and more depraved. *Edit:* The "appropriating Gaelic religions" comment wasn't from nowhere; Harry Potter received a lot of critique from traditional practitioners in Great Britain when it initially released and throughout its run. These critiques didn't get mainstream attention in later years like the racism and antisemitism did, so they've essentially been drowned out by now. Early on, however, the critique was there for people who went looking for it or something similar. (I found it myself when looking up stuff on the goblins, to see if JK was being antisemitic on accident or on purpose. I didn't fully understand the complaints about misrepresenting their culture at the time because I was young, but they stuck with me the entire time.)

[@sundalosketch4769]

"Slavery is fine when it benefits me. When it's done for my desires. Not like i'm hurting them, they want to be my slaves!" JK about her fans, probably.

[@-postapokalypso-7289]

i feel like this is a misinterpretation, which given the lens this video provides, is understandable. At the same time, it is unnuanced and lacks curiosity. What if the question the books were exploring is how a suppressed group can at some point become so used to it that they dont want their freedom anymore? Isnt freeing them against their will also wrong? Wouldnt Dumbledore free any houseelf that walked up to him and asked for freedom? Debateable, but I think he would. Maybe the houseelfes at Hogwarts dont feel like they are slaves. There is no clear answer to what JKs intentions were and I dont always want to suggest bad intent, how am I supposed to know what she was thinking and how do you know? The story about the houseelves can however be an interesting discussion point.

[@littlemissmello]

Could you tell me about the thing about the gaelic religions? I thought I was well read on all things rowling and problematic but that doesn't ring a bell

[@pouncepounce7417]

I read the books out of curiosity once so i am not exactly an scholar on matters HP but the point was that they are similar to people who where in jail for 40+ years, they fear freedom. Freedom is complicated and scary. I think the point was more in lines that the first impulse to free them clashed with reality that they where not equipped for freedom, that one has to think this through and improve there lot in life in an intelligent manner. There is a reason that slave owners where not keen in educating slaves more than necessary for there work, and that later politicans where not keen on that the bottom layer of US population get not too much education because that would make poor workers.. In the books they are described as people who for a very long time did not know freedom, as a people, just freeing them would have it own set of problems. So the theme is more, what do you do if setting someone free leaves them in peril...

[@-postapokalypso-7289]

@@pouncepounce7417 Thats some interesting points youre making. Maybe change is always a hard thing for people to deal with, even if that change is from a thing branded bad to a good thing. It gets more confusing in the HP situation because the houseelves in Hogwarts arent treated badly in their opinion. If you want to lead someone unequipped to Freedom you might have to give them guidance, but it raises an interesting question. If someone is in a situation where they are content and happy and it is only you who thinks the situation is bad and they need to be free, isnt that also forcing your viewpoint in someone? Someone might be too uneducated to notice the bad in a situation, but would making them aware of it hurt them more?

[@celia1888]

Elena generally well liked because the "wokeness issue" is mostly about her as a character rather than "wokeness" itself (like when she's upset because she's passing). She's got the general theory down but is still growing into her personality and morals. And that's specifically about her personality and/or inexperience. So yeah she knows the theory but not the practice of activism which is something that comes with time and experience (we actually see her evolution between season 1 and 4 on that front).

[@Ivuxoxo]

And that’s also a great thing about her character! People seem to forget she’s a teenager and is still learning and growing into herself

[@sundalosketch4769]

That then means we should be seeing more "woke" activists who actually understand how to tackle what they're standing up for instead of amateurs or newly growing activists. As it does seem to make the average person only see them as "preaching SJW idiots" who should just be brushed off.

[@celia1888]

@@sundalosketch4769 that's kinda the point of the video...

[@sundalosketch4769]

@@celia1888 Yeah i know! I mean we need to start getting these movies and shows made swiftly. I'm basically agreeing in a very convoluted way

[@sentientmarshmallow4644]

I like how Elena’s activism is portrayed in ODAAT. Whenever they are teasing her, they are making fun of her methods not the causes themself. Like when she gets a group together to protest a video game company that strongly suggested they would have 3 gender neutral character options but only have 2 (if I remember right). Basically it’s not poking fun at wanting inclusivity but what they’re targeting. They show up on a day the office isn’t even open because they are just kids who want to make a difference but don’t quite know how.

[@myyoutubeaccount1493]

Also, the show portrays her as someone with good intentions who is still young and learning to be more nuanced. They poke fun of her, but not for caring. And in the last episode we see her grow and advocate for understanding others perspectives without compromising your own morals, which I think is an important message.

[@ianesgrecia8568]

Agree. And in the episode of the funeral the cousin actually adress this a the stage of 'yeah, I'm gay' that she goes before being gay becoming just another part of her.

[@shift9894]

Oh yeah the funeral episode was so good. Basically she meets an older lesbian relative who’s in a totally different phase of her queerness, like stopping trying to explain things to family members and stuff. And Elena goes “I may be the lesbian Jesus, but you are a lesbian god” which has lived in my head for years

[@reginarodriguez1477]

i agree in the most part, but i don’t like how every time her family was doing something cultural, she acted annoyed or called them “living stereotypes.” when her whole thing is letting people be themselves without judgement, it felt like a very odd and hypocritical thing to do that kinda played into the stereotype. same with her being anti imperialistic but also thinking her mom working for the military is “badass”

[@Ivuxoxo]

@@reginarodriguez1477 I never remember he calling them “walking stereotypes” maybe lydia with her having different views on marriage love etc, but from my memory is she actually wants to know more about her culture but has the problem of the fact she views herself as whitewashed and doesn’t know how to approach her culture in a respectful way, and lets her pride sometimes blur her judgment (she is a also a teenager so that’s understandable) especially with her family, a lot of the times she wants a unbiased view and lydia is very biased in the way she talks about culture and religion- if you could name a time where she said they were “walking stereotypes” in a context of where she wasn’t playing around with her family please tell me :)

[@crustpunkjesuschrist]

Ngl I know a lot of people hate this character but Diane from Bojack Horseman is definitely one of my favorite activist characters in media especially bc in episodes revolving around her activism she is clearly reacting reasonably to a fucked up world and even when her activism “going to far” is the issue of the episode, she’s still portrayed in an understandable way, not just a wacky annoying character but a genuine moral compass in terms of social issues.

[@Beatness121]

Yeah, Diane is an interesting version of this type of character. I think she does often fall into the trope of the "overly woke" activist, but the narrative also still seems to side with her most of the time. She's a good example of a portrayal of an activist who is still very flawed despite their morals, although I also think that made her seem unlikable to a lot of people.

[@GourdClae]

I also like Diane! I can see her possibly fitting into the category of what this video is talking about but she genuinely cares about the world around her and I can only think of 3-4 times where I'm like 'she's not actually trying to make things better she's using her activism as a cudgel". But no one is perfect! She's just a person!

[@JerichoFrank]

The "Bojack the Feminist" episode was a fantastic jab at the issue Rowan was talking about in this video where activists who aren't actually part of the group they're advocating for are more palatable to audiences. When Diane, a woman, talks about feminist issues, she's annoying and shrill and overbearing, but if the exact same sentiments are coming out of Bojack's mouth, it's suddenly deep and cool and worth listening to. Her frustration when Bojack said, "We're doing feminism, it's supposed to be fun!" hit home so hard.

[@EatyourWafflesplease]

I came here to comment that, glad someone else thinks so!! I feel like diane gets a bad rap in the fandom, and I can't help but feel like it has to do with the general dislike of "annoying" female activists. I think a lot of people misattribute her flaws to just "caring too much". she genuinely wants to help and make a difference in the world, but sometimes she gets so caught up in seeming like a good person that it ends up being counterproductive. I do like the contrast between her and Mr. Peanutbutter, someone who tends to ignore bigger-picture issues, and I think the show does a good job of showing the benefits and drawbacks of both sides. it's important to help the less fortunate and bring attention to social issues, but at what point does it become virtue signalling, and at what point does it start preventing you from finding your own happiness?

[@spadinnerxylaphone2622]

I mainly disliked her because the show is CONSTANTLY calling out Bojack for the bad things he does; he gets an angry speech thrown at him like every other episode. But when Dianne acts like a piece of shit the narrative is like, "Actually she's justified." It's grating.

[@neonoweskarpetki2258]

i feel like the “good activist bad activist” trope is exactly what „sex education” addresses with cal. cal is the loud openly non binary character and gets bashed for being themselves multiple times, while the other „good” quiet nonbinary person gets praised. the difference is that sex education is perfectly aware of how awful that trope is and makes sure to let the audience know that the character bashing cal is the antagonist of the series oh and the show makes cal actually help the other nonbinary character, which is extremely sweet.

[@Bandajify]

in Poland this type of character has been given a name "Julka" (a short, cutesy version of a common name Julia - Julie), it's the combination of disregarding young teen girls as well as activists or anyone with any semblance of a moral compass, to the point that proclaiming any slight left-leaning opinion online, especially if you're a woman, will get you attacked, called that and your opinion disregarded as insanity

[@audri1273]

Wait so kind of like a reverse Karen?

[@JuliaPetrova]

"And I took that personally" 😅

[@mybedisgareth]

@@audri1273 Not so reverse if "Karen" is complaining to the manager for facing discrimination by the staff or getting lower pay for the same work as an employee. I think the term started out with good intentions for calling out racism and socioeconomic privilege when it was on Black Twitter. But now that it's been appropriated by mass media it seems just as likely to be used against any (often white, middle aged) women who disrupts the status quo or demands to be heard. I've been called a Karen for saying a meme was accidentally sexist.

[@kittykittybangbang9367]

@@audri1273 Or what we in America call an "Emily"

[@TaylorBingham-l2b]

@@audri1273ehh Karen is different I’d put it more with Emily or Becky

[@SteveJubs]

Learning about the Blood Sisters only just now legitimately has me teary-eyed. At this point I actually have been able to learn more about all the long history of our communities that goes entirely unmentioned in our school programs (in no small part due to stumbling across this channel two years ago), but there’s still just so much more to uncover. Sometimes it’s all so heartwarming, and yet so heartbreaking at the same time.

[@deadlymelody27]

I had tears in my eyes too!

[@Cherri_Stars]

I cried at this too! I'm glad to hear we're all feeling this together. That portion of the video gave me chills. The idea of one portion of the community supporting another with everything they had, it's so so beautiful

[@thatyoutubechannel9953]

I have a love of lesbian movies, both indie and more mainstream. I have to say, the whole "one marginalization allowed" rule is horribly annoying. Even when I don't share the marginalizations, I'd much rather see a movie explore the difficulties of being a working class black Jewish man than another movie about two wealthy white gay highschool boys

[@okaykatieokay]

The marketing for tick tick boom really frustrated me. It's been my favourite musical for years, and I was genuinely so confused when I saw the trailer - the show isn't about activism, Jon wasn't an activist (he was an ally/supporter) but never an activist. Especially for a semi-biographical piece it felt weirdly revisionist and dismissive of actual activists. When will writers/production and marketing companies learn that everyone doesn't need to be an activist

[@sarahwatts7152]

I don't want to watch the move for that very reason, using HIV/AIDS to bait people into watching

[@emmazig]

Honestly, I loved the movie and I don't think anyone involved in the actual making of the movie wanted to bait people into seeing it, but it sadly doesn't surprise me that marketing/Netflix would draw on that angle for advertizing :(

[@faffolite]

Art is activism

[@sabinajoh]

I never watched the trailer but seeing it now I’m like ??? Jon isn’t being an activist he is truly just being an ally and while AIDS has a part in the story, it’s nowhere near the trailer

[@wacksonjittemore4013]

This seems like a no-win situation. Stories are criticized when they're non-political, like Will & Grace. But they're criticized when they add background political elements, like Tick Tick Boom. But they're criticized when they make politics the focus of an LGBT character's experience, like Moxie.

[@99scb2]

another thing to add: often whenever activists get emotional speaking about their topics, and when i say emotional i mean we voice our frustration or anger, suddenly we are disregarded. but the truth is that when you and your community has been discriminated against since forever you are going to get emotional. they are emotionally charged topics. i believe this is also rooted in misogyny (ex: the hysterical women trope). not to say you can scream at the other person or be rude ofc but it’s a discussion to be had

[@keithmazzapica5188]

So hysterical women don't exist?

[@thesevenkingswelove9554]

Right? People saying they want a certain group dead, like how are you supposed to debate them when they literally say they want you dead? Or want to treat you as someone is below them not even as a human

[@keithmazzapica5188]

@@thesevenkingswelove9554 'Humanness' is overrated.

[@thesevenkingswelove9554]

@@keithmazzapica5188 yes that's why you think people who support gay people are just narcissist right? You are embarassing

[@keithmazzapica5188]

@@thesevenkingswelove9554 Gay people are narcissists. I personally don't care. If Adam and Steve want to walk around wearing only a fig leaf, it doesn't bother me. I agree that the majority are uptight. That's because everyone is a hypocrite. I definitely see hysterical women in society and now hysterical men.

[@FairyPrincessNia]

Reactionaries wanna call social justice activists pushy like their favorite hobby isn't going on mass harassment campaigns against people they deem "SJWs".

[@keithmazzapica5188]

Social Justice is Catholic Socialism.

[@neoqwerty]

@@keithmazzapica5188 Ah, you've answered my question I was asking in the other thread here. Good, you're an atheist cringelord. Probably one of the guys who really didn't like Richard Dawkins losing his humanist thing for spreading a bunch of anti-trans sentiments.

[@horsepuncher95]

@@neoqwerty Now now let's not shit on atheism, institutionalised religion is one of the foundational catalysts of systemic discrimination. This bloke is probably just one of those people who has convinced themselves that the left is out to get his free speech lol

[@nessie7306]

@@keithmazzapica5188 bro what

[@benya14-bo5rx]

​@@keithmazzapica5188 That is a hot take INDEED.

[@aaron_collen]

Never forget when She Who Must Not Be Named made one (1) of her characters acknowledge that slavery is bad even towards house elves, and then proceded to made the fact that she cared about them the butt of the joke.

[@annabeinglazy5580]

And even goes on to insist that House elves LIKE being treated Like garbage. Even as a 11 year old that creeped me Out. Even dobby is the "Just too much" activist, and Hes the one that was forced to physically Hurt himself for Not following orders.

[@ZerudaDensetsu]

Yo, just put the name cause i have clue who the fuck this is…

[@j.m.lascar5002]

@@ZerudaDensetsu JK Rowling

[@ZerudaDensetsu]

@@j.m.lascar5002 thx

[@fionafiona1146]

My first thought too I have read much more fanfiction in a week than JKR ever wrote but that setup is something people strive/write often.

[@FalkaRiannon]

What I find super weird is that some very vocal right wing activists seem to have no clue that what they are doing is activism. I feel like that is also partially related to the depiction of all activism being left wing. If people scream all day on stream about how "the woke are destroying the world" and to prevent that you have to vote for a certain politician that is activism.

[@franksonatra]

I think right wingers don't call their stuff activism because it's supporting the status quo.

[@moirayzabelle5260]

It honestly feels like these activist characters are just saying a bunch of buzzwords to feel or seem like they’re fighting for something but don’t really care about it beyond a shallow surface level.

[@BlueCyann]

That's exactly the point being made, though. They're written to be like that. They're fictional, conforming to writer's intent and not to any objective reality. But in most cases, the message that comes through is not "this is a particularly bad example of an activist" but rather "this is exactly what an activist is".

[@conniethecoolcat6962]

If anyone has seen the new how I met your mother reboot, episode 6 has an interesting case of this mixed with some very intense biphobia. A bisexual character is used as a plot point where a brother and sister end up dating the same person, and is portrayed as the dumbest bad faith representation of a social justice warriors (at one point she gets offended by fake leopard print on a t-shirt saying, "how would you feel if I wore a print of your skin?". She also calls in a bomb threat at a Panera bread due to their use of poppy seeds). I'm interested in how the stereotypes of activists and bisexuality intersect. I think this is in part due to bisexuality being still seen as a radical act in itself. Bisexuals struggle to fit in among straight communities and gay communities and have to constantly fight to taken seriously by anyone. Biphobia has the same tone as social justice representation where they are portrayed as too sensitive, too dramatic, and making things difficult for the attention. Anyways, love the video it's so important to discuss how media can affect public opinion.

[@bexyPTX]

This makes me think a lot about Britta from Community, specifically that one episode where we learn she's formed a friendship of sorts with a girl who she's literally only friends with because she thinks that she's a lesbian, only to learn that they actually thought this of each other but neither of them are actually lesbians so they end up just not being friends anymore because they never really were. Ah, a character with such potential who ended up being the idiot activist for the most pointless things.

[@12345678abracadabra]

tbh ive always valued dummy britta than the smug love interest at the start

[@mcwjes]

Leonard likes this comment.

[@elijahculper5522]

Britta was the worst. ;)

[@guybrushthreepwood9071]

I'm getting rid of Britta

[@camusreviews6877]

I do think Britta’s flaws are more a criticism of the white savior/performative activism mentality than of activism itself but an example of how to be a better activist would’ve made this point more poignant

[@MissingSirius]

Moxie was also really frustrating to me in terms of how Vivian's mother was portrayed. The way she talked about her high school experience felt so artificial and surface level "Yeah, we were all about taking down the patriarchy" or whatever she says. I compare this to my own mom and the way she speaks. She doesn't have all the "right" words or the "woke" vocabulary, but she was a total BA when she was in high school in terms of what she did and how much she fought back. I also think it's worth noting that nothing actually changed at my mom's school while she was there. She never achieved what she was fighting for (notably similar to Moxie's plot, she was desperately trying to get recognition for girls' sports and the school pulled some crazy shit with a scholarship that they passed over several girls for, including my mom whose chance was tanked by receiving a 0 in "citizenship"). Anyway, just would have been nice to see a more nuanced portrayal of an older "activist" character that didn't have the same vocabulary as our current generation and to explore how things have and haven't changed.

[@music_YT2023]

The movie Jeffrey was my intro to gay issues and the first time I remember hearing about AIDS at all. It's not about activism, it's a rom com where two men fall in love but have to deal with the HIV/AIDS epidemic and the fears and stigmas surrounding health and just being visible. Also, Patrick Stuart is in it and it's just lovely.

[@ruthbennett7563]

I still have wonderful intrusive comic memories of SPS as a “Pink Panther”.

[@mysteriiis]

Can I do this.....or do I just look like a gay superhero?

[@music_YT2023]

@@mysteriiis kzbin.info/www/bejne/aom5nqernK19Zqc He really elevates the role. 🤣

[@brainstorm4838]

Hello my fellow siblings of the LGBTQ+ community!

[@clover6499]

Hello there

[@tariqthomas9090]

Hiiii 💖💜💙

[@magicalkatze]

Hello ♥️🏳️‍🌈

[@Slushy_maker]

Hi 💜🖤🤍💚

[@deprogramme369]

hey, folx💘💜💙🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍⚧️✊

[@yate0128]

That last bit of "i want to help but I've no clue what that even entails" was something I was thinking the entire time i was watching this video

[@MK-ex4fe]

my favorite example of an “activist character” is eloise from brigerton. she’s clearly there to throw up a token protest against the period sexism, but is treated exactly like modern activist characters. Her brothers who get more screen time and central plots roll their eyes at her and the film language is clearly communicating that she is annoying and out of touch. i guess it makes sense, clearly we’re supposed to be rooting for romance and losing ourselves in the period, but why even include her. it feels like a parody.

[@sierrafarnum9689]

Informing people about issues and pushing for equality in conversations is seen as empty activism, like if one truly cared they wouldn't be spending their time on debates. But in reality - stopping harmful mentalities and spreading a good mindset in your day to day interactions is probably one of the most effective forms of activism there is. Changing the average person's views is what leads to legal change, not the other way around.

[@burneracctsmith9622]

could stand to contextualize this with some discussion of how the most common uses of “woke”, whether the (mostly non-Black) people using the term are pro- or anti- “PC”, are using an AAVE term as a joke or at least in a very skewed and decontextualized flattened way. like your use of it feels a little mocking in a way that i don’t think was intentional, but still reflects the way Black people, and the language and activism and movements they create, are constantly ripped and riffed off of, to the extent that you can participate in that without even noticing. also, re: trans people who are not activists being misrepresented as such because they exist in public - a good example of this is “gender critical feminists” painting any opposition to them as “TRAs” - according to that variety of political transphobe, they’re concerned citizens nobly advocating for the status quo, while their “opponents”/the people they seek to push further into the gutter are hysterical activists fighting a doomed and disorganized war against science/common sense/culture/history/whatever.

[@devofficialchannel]

I'm not surprised with how conservatives (and even some liberals who don't seem to understand the shit they talk about) willingly misappropriated an AAVE word as a buzzword to shut off any criticism as being "overly sensitive" with the alternative choice being to submit to an uncaring status quo.

[@Boggythefroggy]

The one example that I’ve always thought of in the insufferable activist stereotype role is Britta from Community. When I first got into the show, I was just starting to become more leftist and figuring out my own queerness etc and seeing Britta be slowly morphed from a well meaning liberal to a caricature of an angry, entitled feminist really hurt actually, especially because it’s not like there was another character that had similar values to her but wasn’t as much of a hypocrite? It just came across as very anti-SJW era KZbin if that makes sense lmao.

[@sabinajoh]

Tbf Britta was always kind of a hypocrite but she was romanticized by Jeff (they all kinda were hypocrites, except Abed because it’s Abed) but she was the stereotype 100%

[@rroselandd]

Hi!! Leftist and liberal can be interchangeable, but they are also two very different things as well

[@SweetStickyMango]

I think her character was to poke fun of white feminism and white savior mentality which IS a huge problem for many white activists. As a WoC feminist i find people like this all the time lol and they lose their minds if you acknowledge it

[@relaxingsounds1386]

'figuring out my own queerness' lol!! you people do spend an awfully large amount of time thinking about yourselves, don't you.

[@lizabeth529]

@@relaxingsounds1386 what. are people supposed to realise their own identities by not thinking about themselves?? how do you even do that???

[@bloop6111]

“For many people, this is revolting” *Men casually dance to music so quiet you can hear them stepping* That was comedic perfection until I remembered that it happened in real life and not as a parody of homophobes

[@picturethis4903]

People laughing at genuine activism is quite sad tbh, the school in Moxie and schools in gen are ignorant to harrasement its horrific

[@ForeignManinaForeignLand]

Not me early to a Rowan Ellis video 💜

[@Mentisia]

Fun fact: the most famous West Wing scene wasn't actually written by any of their writers. It was stolen from an online post

[@beckyginger3432]

Oh my gosh! Do you have a source for this? That's amazing

[@tiadeets]

Oh I need to take time to fully watch this when it's not late because this is such an important issue and it's so good you're talking about it! (Also if you want actual great activism on screen, I can only recommend the currently airing Thai drama Not Me which talks about a lot of important issues surrounding activism, privileges, minority rights, a truly intersectional view (class, disability, trans issues, etc.), policy brutality, having different opinions within activist movements, and is also very queer, it is the best show about activism and fighting for your rights with what we call "la convergence des luttes" in French, the convergence of the struggles, think Pride)

[@tiadeets]

I finished the video! It was really interesting! I also really hope for more good representation in the future (and also in the present). Oh and anyone reading this, Not Me is available for free on KZbin)

[@picturethis4903]

good taste in tv its an amazing show

[@Lexi_Zone]

I mean, "Shut Up and Listen" sounds like a great podcast name to me.

[@eleanormaddocks1834]

Your comment about activism never being taught in schools? We’re working on it! I’m a current trainee teacher, and I have a module I’m doing at the moment about global issues of injustice and how to address them in a primary classroom. According to my lecturers, it’s the only teaching course in the uk with that module, but we have it! And it’s been running for years now. There are 60+ teachers qualifying a year who have been taught how to teach activism to 5-11 years olds, and some of the first are now starting to get into positions of power. So, never say never, believe me, my lecturers are working on it.

[@HeyRowanEllis]

I run activism workshops in schools and universities for schools that need to fill in a gap in the curriculum so excited to see it in in school modules too!

[@caitie226]

surely collab… surely…

[@andyiswonderful]

Teaching activism to children is like teaching them religion. It is not your place, and shouldn't be in the schools, especially if the parents don't want it.

[@Asphodelic_Ellipse]

@@andyiswonderful but it's teaching them about how to advocate for themselves. Also, you can't teach history *without* talking about activism as that was how *most* major changes happened.

[@jcspoon573]

1990, my US history teacher talked about there being two types of abolitionists: white people who wanted to change what was happening to black people ... and black people. And the first group was not always good in how they went about helping. Found out Susan B Anthony was a white supremacist, while Frederick Douglas was one of the most amazing Americans, men, people, ever. Yet not even 10 years later, my niece and nephew had no idea what I was talking about when I helped them with history.

[@Inscriptions37]

On the subject of the movie Pride, which I quite enjoyed, I think it's telling that the first "trivia" fact listed for it on Amazon Video when I watched it was that it had been "criticized" for not having enough people of color in the cast, as if it were the first and only movie set in the UK (or anywhere, really) to have that problem. It's almost like Amazon, a famously anti-union company, wants to convince the exact kinds of "woke" people who might go looking for films like this that actually it's bad because it's not PERFECTLY "woke." The idea that a movie having been "criticized" even qualifies as trivia is pretty ridiculous. I criticize films all the time. Should my complaints about the Star Wars prequels be considered trivia?

[@Hazelduff]

L3-37 from the Star Wars movie "Solo" was a jokey-joke fighter for droids rights, serving as a comic relief character addressing those specific concerns of fans over the many decades. Something these modern reboots/spin offs of older media love to lampshade these days, partially to "justify their own existence." I initially did find her kinda amusing, but as pointed out by KZbinr Jenny Nicholson, L3-37's activism and character is just very caricatured. :/

[@raoul_alexander]

There's also a super interesting Pop Culture Detective video called "The Tragedy of Droids in Star Wars", where her character is unpacked. Especially considering how Star Wars seems to want it both ways with droids, having them both as quirky human-like characters that you can get emotionally attached to as well as expendable lifeless machines, her storyline is just really unsettling.

[@Hazelduff]

@@raoul_alexander I must've missed that episode from PCD thanks for reminding me!

[@rutuesday]

I hated how the writing treated L3-37, especially at the end of the film, wherein the characters completely ignored everything that her character stood for. Also, the fact that they make a joke out of the fact that what she is fighting against is essentially robot slavery. Like, is it really that funny to think that slavery is... bad? and be actively against it? is that a hot take?

[@mystic-malevolence]

Such an interesting character pitch that they absolutely butchered.

[@sundalosketch4769]

Easiest way to avoid such issues is to not give the enemy the capability to be shown in a humane manner. If they never gave the robots personalities, they wouldn't have had to deal with this supposed complex issue.. Also like- would it have been hard for them to stop the slavery and have the bad guys just make a whole new dispensable robo army without emotions and thoughts? At least ones where they were programed to not fight against their fate. Could've been a win win.

[@notaburneraccount]

i wish people would retire the terms "cringe" and "sjw"

[@keithmazzapica5188]

Language police are pathetic

[@zyerkos]

honorable mention would be "cope"

[@keithmazzapica5188]

@@zyerkos Says who?

[@ridanann]

because you're cringe community sjw lol

[@zyerkos]

@@keithmazzapica5188 youve never seen an angry conservative telling anyone with different views to "seethe and cope with their mental illness" ?

[@lynn858]

My Mom explaining homosexuality to me, age 11, in 1994: It’s fine for homosexuals to love each other in their own home. Of COURSE they should be treated with the same respect as anyone else. I don’t think she saw the cognitive dissonance. She just wanted to be made to feel comfortable. And she was so much more progressive than her parent’s generation. They really don’t need to ask for more!

[@gabrielmaroto18]

I grew up in a home that didn’t discuss homosexuality at all good or bad but when I was outside of the home homosexuality was brought up a lot I am very visibly gay and it was not good to say the least but since it was not brought up in my home I didn’t bring up the fact that I was being bullied for being gay either

[@lynn858]

@@gabrielmaroto18 … that sucks. I hadn’t considered that potential impact of “just not talking about it”. I was effectively raised atheist, because my parents “never talked about it”. I knew other families came from different countries and backgrounds, celebrated different holidays, ate different foods… but the concept of an omniscient creator never came up. This inevitably earned me the wrath of the neighbors when, very confused hearing about easter as a christian observance, I said, then started yelling “there’s no such thing as god” with all the conviction one might have when talking to someone denying the existence of gravity, and the debating skills of a child who’s main skill is getting louder. I feel confident I fared better than you did. At least I got to go home and have Dad explain that religious beliefs are not a topic you challenge people on. Thank you. You made me think. Clearly I knew “nothing” wasn’t a great strategy regarding religion, but I hadn’t considered it in this context.

[@sundalosketch4769]

@@gabrielmaroto18 I had this lifestyle but with gender. I never really thought much about being genderfluid but once i realized, i didn't know what my mother's stance would be as she always advocated on me loving whoever i wanted responsibly, but never if i ever became a gender unrelated to my agab. I tested her mentality by listening to her thoughts about trans people and it came out... Very very complicated. I'm officially uncomfortable in this household.

[@RedAngelSophia]

Your video has me thinking about how many people likely _today_ see neurodiversity activists - and contrasting to how I _hope_ we will be seen by society in 20 years retrospect. Today, I think that many people see us as self-entitled flunkies who do not understand the realities of the workplace. I hope that when society looks back at us in 20 years, they will realize that _we_ are the ones who _do_ understand the realities of the workplace - and understand those realities well enough to know that the way things are is _wrong_ and needs to _change._

[@im19ice3]

i have to admit the biggest reason i stayed in the closet for so long was the illusion that people would listen to me more readily if they thought of me as ''one of them''

[@whatalsaid]

You should do an analysis of the queer characters of PLL. Mike’s mic did an unhinged recap of the entirety of pretty little liars, and a lot of memories watching the show came rushing back. The show had a Lot of lesbian/bisexual characters and it’s VERY hit or miss.

[@zkme2734]

slay slay slay

[@lucypreece7581]

As someone who presently has the desire to study politics and sociology and become an activist I appreciate this video.

[@LilithIsDying]

I'm so sad that mj from the mcu Spiderman movies falls victim to this kind of trope. like, she has really cool social views, but it's just treated as her being an "edgy teen"

[@wronglayerbutok]

Most shows and movies in general have completely forgotten the «show, don’t tell» rule and activism feels very performative through words with no action. Assuming the audience only understands if it’s spelled out makes everything seem fake and juvenile.

[@tkbuffy]

I loved Moxie when I first watched it, but looking back on it it's so upsetting how much of a missed opportunity/how shallow it was.

[@Ivuxoxo]

It was funny seeing the main character getting called out for her privilege, would have been a way better movie if was told the best friends perspective, or even the blond one who got SA’d if they wanted from a yt pov

[@lilyoftheveil666]

One of the most abysmal representations of "activism" (not entirely the word applies here, but it's close) is the leader of the "Flag Smashers" 🙄in Falcon & The WInter Soldier. She leads a group who wants to do things like abolish national borders, but she goes Too Far and kills someone, and therefore becomes a villain.

[@SisterPegasus]

Agreed. Jessie Gender has a video on how media misunderstands revolutionaries and she uses that specific example!

[@christianwise637]

Well they have to do terrible things like that, otherwise audiences might start rooting for the "wrong" people

[@rachel3760]

"Nerdy" media does that a lot as a lazy character arc, Bioshock Infinite did it to the Vox Populi, Black Panther did it to Killmonger, so many of the cartoon Batman movies. They take characters with initially good and radical ideas and make them go "too far" and it always ends so that the oppressive status quo the activist character was against doesn't change.

[@DANINREDDY]

That's neo-liberalism for you...

[@laurellee1435]

There's a small step between the cringey activist and the overly vengeful/violent revolutionary in film, but they both fall to the status quo in the same way

[@Allison_Hart]

*"they were often peppered with well-meaning ignorance. like this guy who talks about how he's okay with the mixing of homosexuals and 'normal' people."* yo that reminds me of when my mom and i were watching "Breaking Amish" and she said something about *"Amish people vs. straight people."* as if "Amish" and "straight" were opposites on some kinda spectrum. i laughed so hard i almost threw up. she's a little confused but she's got the spirit!!

[@angiep2229]

"How I Met Your Father" has a couple of this over the top ridiculous leftist characters, and it really makes me dislike the writers. I don't like seeing things I believe portrayed that way.

[@wesss9353]

That's how a normal lefty is...

[@wesss9353]

@Aditya Chavarkar you might want to open your eyes... Let's look at chaz/chop and compare that with the Canadian truckers blockade shall we? 100% black murder rate in chaz/chop ZERO murderes in the Canadian truckers blockade

[@wesss9353]

@Aditya Chavarkar kzbin.info/www/bejne/l364Y6iaoNR1qc0

[@wesss9353]

@Aditya Chavarkar kzbin.info/www/bejne/jXnNiX2FgdqHjas just remember that black lives don't matter only certain black lives matter

[@deadlymelody27]

The first character i thought of was Britta from Community. Its why if i mention any form of activism or just rights... i get met with eyerolls by so many people. People see any form as activism as boring or annoying

[@novietakes]

i just found your channel this past week and i’m SO GLAD. I’ve been harping on about irresponsible media portrayals and the importance of community in my own life for the past several months and it’s incredible to watch your videos and have my inklings, fears, and frustrations validated. plus your hair is really cool all the time. never stop being you.

[@fengy5629]

Even when an activist character *isn't* written like this, or is actually written exceptionally kindly, consumers of the media will misinterpret them as this trope because it's all they know of activist characters.

[@TheLastSane1]

I honestly have noticed this even before coming to grips with my own identity and sexuality. I am aro/ace and non-binary. But back when I thought I was a straight cis male I noticed that when they had a gay character on screen fighting for their rights it seemed "Selfish" is a weird word to connect to it but its close to what I mean. It reads entirely differently when its a straigt cis person pointing out the obvious that lgbtq people are of course deserving of all the same rights and freedoms. Now as someone who is definitely not straight or cis I see those depictions in a different light. I see those gay characters fighting for their rights as also fighting for my rights. But for a cis straight person this is not what they see. They see it as the gay person fighting for their rights, not the rights of others because thats not often how its framed.

[@viktoriabazyk8193]

i think another aspect of using a person outside the group as an intermediary is that if, say, a queer person were to demand rights and respect it would be uncomfortable bc they are demanding it for themselves, therefore appearing as biased in a sense bc they stand to profit and if the other person were to refuse to grant it they would be a baddie bc they are refusing someone respect and rights directly to their face. however, if a non queer person demands it for queer people they appear as noble and selfless bc they're not asking it for themselves and it's easier for the other person to refuse without feeling like an asshole. lol this made more sense in my head but hopefully i managed to get my point across

[@BlueCyann]

I really think so much of it is just pure ego-stroking for the audience. The audience (assumed to be comprised mostly of people who identify with the relatively privileged viewpoint characters), gets to put themselves in the shoes of someone who is saying the morally correct things and putting those regressives in their place. Audience-insert fanfiction for liberals. I've never been able to tolerate it.

[@calderfly4004]

i have thought about this concept for so long since every single female character in media i've seen who has described herself as a feminist is always the most annoying character, and it's always the fault of the writer. so excited to hear what you have to say!!

[@stormRed]

I've always found this archetype irritating, they really are just anti-activism propaganda (not implying it's done on purpose)

[@JuliaPetrova]

A lot of these portrayals have the same vibes as "conservatives getting mad about things they made up". It's writers removed from the cause who invent non-issues in their minds, and then get mad at the idea of The Activist™️ that they themselves created in their imagination...

[@fy8798]

For a bad depiction, there's that Hermine girl in that magic school series who has the audacity to object to in-fictional slavery. Very bad, that girl, for doing that. Thankfully, we had wiki writers writing essays about slavery being actually very good, to make sure nobody was confused.

[@christianwise637]

Hang on, wiki writers actually turned out essays to justify slavery in the wizarding world?! God that franchise is broken...

[@material-cheshirekhatter2413]

You did not just call HOGWARTS, a "magic school", it is a "SCHOOL OF WITCHCRAFT AND WIZARDRY"😤 !

[@sacrificiallamb4568]

I think you're confused with the plot of Lion King 7. Everyone knows the series says magic school.

[@SockLove]

@@christianwise637 Yeah there was an article about the pros and cons of slavery. It has been deleted since (i wonder why lol)

[@christianwise637]

@@SockLoveWhat the hell is wrong with these people?!

[@99scb2]

i am very vocal about my attachment to social justice issues and activism and unfortunately this year i’ve been made fun of for it (by cishet white men ofc). and it’s very hard to navigate because i’ve found myself being depicted as that one “hysterical” feminist and “extremist” lgbt rights advocate. simply for voicing my opinions for example by spreading awareness on social media or… not laughing at their racist jokes and calling them out? to me it just goes to show how this representation of the annoying activist leads people to make assumptions about real life activists.

[@Fishtory]

Also- thank you for stating that the fight for equality and gay marriage- truly was a battle or "war" within many of our lifetimes. If you are 35 or 40+, you undoubtedly remember how the assumption of defeat was seamingly default for activists... I honestly think it took 40 years of things like David Bowie, Divine, Rupaul or Queen and things like dog day afternoon, RENT, & the shows you mention in this. Thank you!

[@oggyboggy8692]

How do you become an activist? Is it best to give your money to an organisation/charity? Your time? To do something locally? Locally but focused on international causes?

[@HeyRowanEllis]

So part of my job over the last few years has been running workshops on exactly this - but when 2020 lockdowns happened I decided to run a little online taster for free here: kzbin.info/www/bejne/paHTqIGtaZWBd5I

[@IshtarNike]

My short stint in the activist realm suggests that time is more effective than money in many cases. Activist groups are riddled with burn out because there’s too much to do and not enough people involved. So people take on too much responsibility and burn out. Getting involved personally is a big help.

[@g.411]

If you want my two cents, I think it's a good idea to start local. Look up queer/women's/racial justice/etc. groups in your community. Even giving your time to less political community organizations (e.g., soup kitchens, senior centers) can be helpful - you're bound to meet lots of people involved in community organization/activism, while also improving the lives of those in your city/town/etc.

[@oggyboggy8692]

@@HeyRowanEllis Thank you, I'm checking out the video.

[@oggyboggy8692]

@@IshtarNike That's a great suggestion and very reasonable. Even just reading and learning about the topics you want to change can be exhausting enough, never mind actually doing something.

[@SinisterXRouge]

Idk if The Bold Type tv show is available to watch in the uk, but I really like how Kat the "activist" character is portrayed. She is sometimes blunt and brash, but her friends always support her and her activism is never the punchline. There's even a whole character development storyline about how, after facing some p big consequences from her last activism moment, changes her strategy to benefit her and her friends' safety.

[@segirly]

The reactionary dismissiveness that the general public have towards any social progress movement can only really exist so long as the history of similar behaviour is burried and forgotten. I think if we made sure to teach about the way people treated (for example) MLK *alongside* the things he achieved and is remembered for, similiar instant rejection would be harder to justify. It would be like seeing their own actions in a historical mirror, knowing how people would percieve them in the future.

[@winterfire1097]

Good luck with that, when I was in high school (Class of 09) I had to tutor a girl who thought Hitler was an Ally. Tbh most of the kids in ny classes didn't pay attention for sh*t. The jocks coasted on C'd but alot of others failed. And also there is a big difference between MLK who was a intelligent deep thinker and for example the main girl of Moxie, who I would have mocked too.

[@BlackXSunlight]

Hard to do that when banning critical race theory and introducing “Don’t Say Gay” bills literally makes it illegal for teachers to even talk about this stuff. So step 1 is actually removing these tyrants from power.

[@gigigrass6050]

15:37 fun fact: this past weekend I had the opportunity to actually meet one of the people who was part of the support group that Jonathon Larson went to. He was actually my tour guide. One of Paul's lines in the musical is based on something he said in that support group. His name is Scott Fried, and he is an HIV activist. He's done a few Ted Talks and is genuinely one of the nicest people I've ever met. I highly suggest checking him out if you want to support queer activists.

[@stevepenn2582]

It could never be that annoying activists are a universal constant in all walks of life that everyone can relate to

[@elliart7432]

Something that's rarely talked about in intersectionality unless you're actually experiencing it is that many aspects of your identity will be out right denied because of this false narrative that belonging to multiple groups is uncommon. I've had to fight tooth and nail with my dad to have him not even entertain or believe, but just shut up about my transness, and because of that I absolutely refuse to initiate any sort of communication about being evaluated for autism soon. Even with a long term therapist and several neurodivergent friends to back the theory up with either professional opinion or experience.

[@Lunareon]

Awesome analysis, as always. The lack of solidarity between various minorities on screen is depressing. We need healthier models, not this zero sum mentality. As you said, we are all many things. It was heartwarming to hear about the real life examples of different groups supporting each other. I think such acts should be celebrated and promoted more.

[@dec9008]

Don’t know how you managed to go this whole video without quoting Black Sails, Rowan. I wouldn’t have been able to resist the temptation. The whole time you were talking about how present-day activists are seen as radicals until they achieve the social change they’re fighting for and it becomes the norm, I kept thinking “Nobody will believe it's possible until we show them. But when that day comes, you know what they'll say? They'll say that it was inevitable.”

[@MagnoliaPantherWoman]

The women's rights movement in the late 1800s excluded lesbians, black people, and liberals. Matilda Joslyn Gage, an activist from that time, wrote a book about it called Women Church and State 1893. It's free to read online and a modern readers version has been republished.

[@tempbauer2131]

I didn’t realize Rent was supposed to be about activism. I just thought it was a snippet, a peak into a few ppl’s lives.

[@faffolite]

It is fully about activism and representation was way before many others

[@skallywalla502]

I saw Rent in 1996 and let me tell you - it was RADICALLY activist for its time. Having queer and BIPOC and queer BIPOC - who were all main characters! - felt revolutionary. When you look at the story in 2005 and the lukewarm movie version, it feels hollow and flat and like it didn't do much. But listening to Rent and going to see Rent was an act of rebellion for many teenagers like me with super conservative parents. It bugs me when folks look at groundbreaking pieces of culture that helped bring awareness and let young queer people like myself ( who took another 15 years to come out) see that you can be gay, bi, lesbian, trans, genderfluid - and judge it by today's standards. Progress needs stepping stones. It needs shows like Rent that pushed at the envelope just enough to be acceptable to the ruling class and speak to the rest of us. Hamilton was considered revolutionary 6 years ago and now people look at it and say it didn't do enough. That's the way it's always going to be. But remember that progress happens in increments. Tiny increments. And it's a lot of 2 steps forward, 3 back.

[@sapphicfrancesca]

“i beg your misogynistic pardon” NEVER SAY THAT AGAIN😍😍😍

[@gabbytheartfriend]

I think what kills me is that I can never tell if a show is _trying_ to make a parody of activism, or if they're trying to imply that it's bad, _or_ if they're just so disconnected that it's painful to watch. I just want to see someone on screen who is compassionate but fiery in their beliefs, and that it's shown to be a good thing without being the primary trait of that character. I don't want a character whose entire being is simply "being an activist," I want something... I dunno... realistic?

[@CleenisNOThere]

Ngl the show potrays “Activists” accurately Used to see people who acted exactly like that at school Sorry I can’t respect these woke people all they do is make shit worse

[@joshuageraldbutler8037]

Haven't watched it yet, hope you cover the good activist characters as well. Like the ones in the film Pride about the intersection of LGBTQ people and the miners.

[@HeyRowanEllis]

i do indeed!

[@jude-zd9ms]

I love that you are tackling this topic, but I think it’s important to recognize that that there is basis for some of these characters. Activism and social advocacy are terribly important, but I have known many people in the LGBT community specifically who attach them to their own sense of ego. I have seen some of my peers lash out at others, who I knew they felt intimidated or insecure about in some way, with social Justice issues in order to have a sense of superiority over them.

[@gee159]

I think a piece of media written by a queer person would be able to tackle this in a nuanced way and would probably explore interesting themes. But the fact that this seems to be predominantly how activists are portrayed in media is a worrying trend.

[@TheSongwritingCat]

@@gee159 Good point. It's different when some from the group is affectionately poking fun or making fair criticisms and when the critique is coming from an outside perspective that may not fully understand the issue to begin with.

[@acehealer4212]

Good content as always! It is so frustrating when the only characters engaging in activism are portrayed as out-of-touch, delusional, or overly angry.

[@daneroberts1996]

The show that made me finally grow sick of the over the top activist character was Marvel's Runaways, i didn't even watch the entire first episode but the only thing i remember was this one girl who was so overdone, like every thing out of her mouth was some angry, buzzword-laden retort. I saw her character and thought "I've definitely seen this exact character before" and also "no-one has even been like this"

[@amiyahancock4500]

i watched the whole show during lockdown when i had nothing better to do and she was my least favorite character.

[@Ashley.D]

FWIW that character isn't that bad for the whole show, there's the occasional line here or there but it's mostly concentrated in the early episodes, while she's still relatively privileged and before she has "real problems", as this trope might imply.

[@alexwilliams2276]

That's how I felt about one of the sisters from the Charmed reboot. I had to skip through those arcs and they toned it down within the next season. The character, at times, was impulsive too.

[@notabear287]

incredibly glad youtube added their "new to you" tab... this was a wonderful watch, really have me interested to see your input on just about anything else in the world! a comment to tell the algorithm it did well never hurts X)

[@GrainneMhaol]

I'm glad you brought up the feminists in Pride - that is one bothersome point in a brilliant film

[@philschichtig]

the 2020 reboot of saved by the bell does a reeeaaally good job of portraying and celebrating the intersectionality between different groups and puts a lot of emphasis on the importance of solidarity and trying to solve these issues on a systemic level.

[@trianasofiasolanocastro9876]

That's why I really like Brooklyn 99, they always treated Holt's struggles as a black gay man with a lot of respect

[@CleenisNOThere]

That’s why I like the way they revealed Oscar from the Office that he was gay he just liked dudes and that was that

[@unclegumbald989]

Just wanted to say a big THANK YOU for prioritizing subtitles!! 🙏😁 01:50 It days “Indistinct” in subs, but I believe the term is “fan favorites”.

[@hi-meraki]

Just here to say that i love u elena alvarez

[@Niancat2366]

Grazie.

[@DavisGSee]

One interesting example is the 2011 movie Weekend. It's not about activism, but it could easily have fallen into tropes discussed here, with Glen as a very out and outspoken gay contrasted with Russell who largely keeps to himself. Instead of Glen being 'too much', the way he embraces his queerness becomes an important part of Russell's development. He highlights the ways in which Russell is not fully comfortable with his own sexuality. Russell is out to his friends but essentially compartmentalizes the gay parts of his life; finally openly discussing his sexuality, and then being openly affectionate in public, are big steps for him that he would not have reached if not for Glen's example.

[@troopersjp]

I teach a class on the cultural politics of 1960s Spies in music and media, and something I get my students to talk about is how often the villains in these Cold War era films and TV shows...are progressive activists. Anti-nuclear activists, anti-colonialist activists, feminist activists, etc.

[@imjustasconfusedasyou]

i feel like it’s just trying to be like “hello fellow kids! look at me, a very rich person that is making the media form! i’m so relatable and pandering to gen Z!!” like-it just feel fake because it’s big media forms making chacters that are trying to stop big media forms

[@JohnDRuddyMannyMan]

This is fantastic! Well done :)

[@chrs-wltrs]

There are certainly people like this, who use a cause for the sake of their own moral superiority, and portraying them in media wouldn't be a problem on its own, but these are the *only* portrayals of activists in media, while they're certainly not the only kind of activist in real life. The disparity between media and reality, and the preconceptions of which this disparity tries to convince its viewers is a pretty critical problem.

[@julias_pie]

Pride and 120 bpm immediately came to mind when I started watching the video and I'm glad you included the latter. As sad as the movie is, I love how realistic it is by portraying the sorta daily agenda of the activists at the time, there's so much that goes into trying to achieve change and how much boldness it sometimes takes; also, the debates withing the group were my favorite bit.

[@Paramoreex0]

i think it's very rare to see accurate portrayals of activism in media about kids because it's either adults inserting too much to be "relatable" or making it a joke, Elena and the girls from The Babysitter's Club are honestly the only accurate depictions i can think of recently that felt like they were real teenagers caring about real issues.