You Can't Sit With Us!

Kris Kittie's video: • Not Goth Enough???? | ...
Our interview with William Faith & Scary Lady Sarah: • William Faith & Sarah ...
The Internet vs. Goth (feat. Mister Owl): www.thebelfry.rip/blog/2016/10...
Cemetery Confessions: thebelfry.rip/cemeteryconfessions

[@angelabenedict]

I had a video up a while ago that I've since taken down of a situation that occurred between myself and my neighbors. I live in an apartment complex and the way the building I'm in is designed is that each building has 4 apartments. The 2 that are on the lower level are on the ends and between them are the 2 second floor apartments-- This means that despite the fact that there are 2 apartments between 1st and 4th, both lower level apartments have adjoining walls. I live in the 1st. In the 4th lives an old couple who are the most awful, inconsiderate trash bags with a serious case of self-entitlement. If that were not bad enough, they have their kids (who are even worse) and grandchildren spend the weekend, days schools out as well as the entire summer (There's 6 grandchildren btw). They're all incredibly loud, scream and from the sounds of it they body slam each other into walls from morning til night. They have wood floors in their apartment which only exacerbate things. One morning, my husband came home from work early with a hardcore stomach virus. He'd sleep for 5 mins, throw up, go back to sleep-- He was a mess and every time he'd start to drop off, someone next door would slam into a wall or scream and he'd jump. It sounded like a hippo mosh pit to a dolphin hardcore band. I should also mention that I've made them aware of how much we can hear from our apartment before. I went over there and knocked on the door, tried to explain that my husband was sick and to please try and keep it down. The grandmother came outside like a lunatic and said "This is some racist shit" this completely threw me. The grandparents are white, the grand kids are biracial. It hadn't even occurred to me until that moment. By this point the whole family is outside screaming at me and calling me a racist. The parents of the children, the children's black father calling me a 'white bread racist bitch", all saying that the only reason that I took issue, is because they're black and I don't want black people as neighbors-- You know, because my ability to tolerate noise is dependent upon the color of the person making it. The way they reacted, I knew that this was their go to response for any sort of opposition against them. I was always very cordial to them and I was even respectful when confronting them about the noise but they shut it down with one word. Racist. That is what this whole 'elitist' thing reminds me of. The moment anyone presents an opinion that differs from their own, maybe they're sanctimonious and believe they're always right, or maybe they've backed themselves into a corner and have no legitimate response and want to shut down a discussion. That is when they throw out the word ELITIST to shut it down.

[@AjiLaStrange]

Asking your loud-ass, inconsiderate neighbors to keep it down isn't being racist. Did you go to the building manager/superintendent about it?

[@angelabenedict]

Yup. I even sent them the video of the whole thing. They're a fairfield complex who are owned by crooked politicians and only take action if your rent isn't paid. They tell you to call the police when you try to report anything.

[@angelabenedict]

That's awesome! I read it aloud to hear what it would sound like lol.

[@zipdiaburg2175]

Angela Benedict lol

[@sorcha254]

Wow! Angela, I'm sorry you guys had to go through that. F**king people's kids, man!! I know what it's like to live in an apartment complex with noisy neighbors. In California, we often had 2-3 families living in one apartment. If you say anything to them you're instantly pegged as a racist. Nonsense! I don't care what race, Creed, color you are.....just keep your crotch goblins quiet please!

[@NephilimIncorruptus]

"Hey, I'm back." Like you just went to take a piss and have returned. I wish I could be that cool in the first moment of my videos! Not a thing in the video I disagree with! :)

[@ClassPunkOnRumbleAndSubstack]

Lol!

[@salyx]

It's always nice to hear this. There are also health limitations for some of us. I can't dye my hair black anymore (allergies). I can't wear makeup every day (low energy). I can't wear corsets or tight bodices anymore (gut issues). I can't wear too many layers or fabrics that don't breathe (body temperature regulation issues). So most of the time people will find me in PJs or a simple cotton black dress, but I still love my spooky music, candles, horror movies, and drooling over photos of people who are capable of looking the way I'd like to. Also, my hair does NOT TEASE. ZERO GOTH POINTS! :D

[@1015SaturdayNight]

Salyx Woodbine I have health issues too (RA/FMS), but goth is in your heart, doesn't matter if you can't dress up all the time. 🖤

[@RacheldeNugent]

I don't know how universal this is, but I've found that older Goths who have been around and active in the scene since the 80's are usually pretty chilled out people who aren't looking for recognition as a pillar in the community. The people that I've run across that have exhibited the most elitist behavior and "listen to me because I'm very important!" kinds of attitudes have largely been younger people, who, ironically, make a lot of fuss about how BS elitism is. Is it possible it's their coping mechanism for wanting to find their place in something where "position," for lack of a better word, isn't always able to be defined?

[@CemeteryConfessions]

I agree, especially in a physical scene. Black and white thinking and general asshattery seems to be exacerbated by being online, though I think the same applies. I think you're right, usually younger people trying to find their place in the scene, latching onto a personality or a single idea and never letting go, trying to shout down anyone who disagrees, whether they are right or wrong. Thankfully that phase usually passes or they leave the scene, but those people are always there.

[@mariyaminaaugdahlbesbes2244]

Kids arent fully developed mentally and emotionally, so, I guess its possible.

[@SaraMonsterOfficial]

Funny that you used the example of a Juggalo claiming to be goth. I actually had a friend who did just that, and oddly enough I did consider him to be goth (to my own amazement, still.) Great video, again 🖤

[@phenriquez80]

Finally someone who actually makes sense in a realistic every day scenarios of life in general.

[@Senythril]

I have to say count you have inspired me even in my years. pushing over 10+ years of goth i have learned a different side of thinking from you and i feel your videos have help me educate my own ignorance of the culture. So thank you.

[@KEC87]

Another great discussion video. I cannot believe I haven't come across you before.

[@CemeteryConfessions]

Thanks! I haven't been making youtube vidoes for too long since I've focused most of my energy to the podcast or the podcast network, or writing articles for the website. I'm glad you're enjoying them though! If you want more content give the podcast or the website a look. It's all over at thebelfry.rip

[@Jessinking]

yeah i notice this in a LOT of subcultures. for examle the more lolita side of things theres this huge goal of being lifestyle wearing it ever day and then this talk about how often do you wear it are you a weekend warrior or more casual ever day. it seems whenever fashion is mixed into a big part of a subcultures identity this are you enough comes up

[@sarahhostkoetter960]

I'm glad I found you. I really enjoy your voice, your calm, and your kindness. You care about others and this subculture. Thank you for being frank and open. Some people still feel like it's an exclusive club and you can't be yourself entirely, but must trade in bits as a sacrifice in order to claim a title. I have never believed this, since the mid 90's. I wish more people would just be themselves rather than worrying about a special title.

[@peterkarargiris4110]

Excellent vlog Daniel, I couldn't agree more.

[@nerwinwillowcrow8035]

I really like the idea you touched on briefly about how just because two people may disagree on something does not mean that they have to be mortal enemies. You can have disagreements with people and still be their friend. I don't know why people get so hung up on this. It's like the minute someone disagrees with you then you can't be friends anymore and that's just not functional. Debate is healthy, normal and promotes creative thought. Variety is the spice of life, people!

[@MadameBatz]

I could not agree more with all of this. Damn. I've literally had this same conversation with many friends in the scene here in California.

[@eternalwynter2254]

I was born in 80 and have been in goth subculture since early 90s and so I definitely have things I might disagree with some of my younger or more elder goth friends about but we discuss things and try not to take things super personally. I think when someone takes someone's personal belief or position on a subject to heart and they get angry without having communication it can turn ugly. Great video ;)

[@malecifuentes]

Let's talk about Doctor Who!

[@mariyaminaaugdahlbesbes2244]

I personally fail to understand the idea of hierarchies. But its great to see that people can be constructive. I would also argue that being into specific bands(say, Marilyn Manson) doesnt make people a poseur or pointing out facts doesnt make people an elitist. Elitism would be to require people to listen to certain bands, otherwise, theyd be labelled a poseur. The metal scene is actually a good example of such behaviour. And, now, this isnt to shit on the metal scene as a whole. Im a metalhead and I know plenty of people in the metal scene that are not like this. But the scene does have an elitism problem. I dont think the same could be said about goth. Atleast not at the same level. I would argue that if gatekeeping is the definition of depriving someone of their basic ability to seek out knowledge, than perhaps this is a better term than elitism

[@cryptsandcatacombs3097]

first of all good for you for talking to William. second of all I am going to be touching on elitistism with it's association in the subculture. The good and bad of it and what it is and tackling the over use of it in previous manifestations especially on the internet, as well as doing my research and tackling the drama in hopes to diminish any if not most negative affiliations with the subject. great video!

[@SkyeID]

I was disconcerted when you spoke about credibility, earning respect, and social capital in the goth scene. I don't think you meant to imply that no one will listen to what I have to say because I've only been in the subculture for 5 years, but it worries me that I might experience that when I go to any sort of goth event. I don't like the idea of having to prove myself, and I don't think anyone should have to prove themselves to be worthy of the goth title in order to get respect amongst other goths. That makes me stressed out; that before I go to a club, I have to have a PowerPoint presentation of how goth I am. So that if anyone quizzes me, I can pull up the presentation on my iPad. Then people will say, "okay, you get an A on your presentation, so welcome to the club"

[@wickedcyn74]

Skye ID I felt a tinge of stress and a little intimidated, when he mentioned that people must prove themselves. I’m 45 yo, and I’ve recently discovered the Goth subculture just in the last two years, I’m really enjoying the music and the recommendations I find from other people. I’m fascinated by the subculture, I think of it as my sanctuary after a long day, coming on here and watching people from all walks of life telling stories of their experiences as a Goth. I feel like I finally found myself . Though I don’t do it often I enjoy talking to people here on yt, and the content they upload. And though I have a ways to go on learning about the subculture I feel like ive learned so much already. I was seriously considering hunting down my local scene to meet new likeminded people, even though that there isn’t much of a scene in the town I live in. But now I’m having second thoughts, I really don’t have much to offer to the subculture, heck, I’m too old and socially awkward anyway. I think I’m just going to limit myself to just listening to, and enjoying the music in the comfort of my own home. 😞

[@SkyeID]

@@wickedcyn74 I can relate. I may not look it, but I'm 42 years old, and I definitely have my awkward moments in social situations. When it comes to going out, I have to go over the river and through the woods to visit the nearest Goth club, and I am aprehensive about making such a long trip (by public transit no less!) just to get to a place where I may or may not come face-to-face with gothkeepers. But, to look on the bright side, if I do go out, I don't think everyone I encounter will be a jerk. My life is very isolated, and though I do have a few non-goth friends, it's really depressing to not have friends who are in the goth subculture. So I might still try to hit up a goth event, though not necessarily at a club, in the hopes that I meet some friendly, like-minded people. KZbin is great, and I've interacted with some nice goth folks, but in-person interactions with cool goth people would take the edge off the loneliness.

[@wickedcyn74]

Skye ID hi, hope you are doing well on this lovely Tuesday, that is a fabulous idea, finding other venues to meet likeminded individuals and not necessarily clubs, sounds less intimidating. And just to be clear before anyone else misinterprets, I don’t mind at all being taken by the proverbial hand and suggested new bands and music and history or any constructive information on the Goth subculture, I enjoy learning from everyone’s experiences, knowledge and input, what terrorizes me is being quizzed, and judged harshly for not having ALL the info that anyone who’s been in the subculture for decades might have. But, yes I think I just have to break out of my shell and get out there and have fun and make new friends in this new and mysterious dark beautiful world.

[@majdoumunyu7092]

Hey! I know I am a little late on the topic but that is exactly why, although I am really deep in the culture, looks, music and often labelled by non-goth people as being goth, I do not define myself as goth. I mean, it is a philosophy, a way of seeing existence I don't get this whole hierarchy thing, I just want to dance and get beers! I went to some goth events and although some people were nice, I sensed many judgement in these type of places, about the looks etc... So I am going to remain a solitary goth, surrounded by my many colorfull and non pack mentality friends.

[@cathrinewendt178]

I touched on this commenting on another video but I see a pervasive and subtle form of elitism from the more popular goths. I mean sure I know you can only have so many friends and interact with so many people but I see a cliquey form of elitism in the scene and these cliques talk shit on each other too. It does not have to be the outward gothier than thou kinds. It can be people who claim they are accepting, kind, tolerant and non judgemental. Yet if you look at some goths and pay attention to their social circle and who they are most often associated with you realize theres a pattern. I always myself give any individual time to get to know before I know things because having anxiety and a social social awkwardness I am not always myself but being someone who is not really remarkable or popular when I have approached, tried to befriend and talk to some individuals their body language, expression, tone and lack of interest showed me that I was not considered good enough to included or have much or any contact with. It definitely has this old high school feeling of the popular girls and jocks and preppies. Though yeah the individuals I talk of tend to make you feel alienated without really saying much. Despite how long I have been involved and part of this scene I can say at times I still feel like an outsider looking in. With eldergoths for the most part this is not an issue and they tend to be pretty kind and inclusive but there are even some rare eldergoths who can be very elitist and even have pride in the fact. I have not really encountered personally any kind of rude in your face elitism except in some forum and youtube comments from younger people. The many eldergoths do not even have much involvement in social media. I do tend to get on better with the older generations myself. I am in my 30s and so it might just come down to enjoying more mature and relaxed individuals like myself.

[@MrFusselig]

"Piere something" its Bourdieu, Piere Bourdieu.

[@mitchmunster9864]

A lot of common sense in this video.

[@user-kk2pc7ik7t]

I belive that its possible to come to the conclusions that maybe sometimes there are no clear cut answers? Even though, of course, the music is important.

[@3jdni]

The issue we face in the community is we have this pack mentality with "celebrity" like KZbinrs and online personalities. And we have this incorrect assumption that someone with 30 years of Goth experience is more correct than someone with 30 days experience. If a KZbinr or long-time Goth says you're not Goth because you don't consider Sioxsie the Goth Queen, hundreds if not thousands of followers will agree with them. Unfortunately, there's more excitement in being part of the elite and putting others down than there is being openminded on your own - that's why bullying is a thing. I will fight for anyone to have their opinion whether I agree with it or not but the right to have and voice your opinion is not equal to having the right to put others down or be immune from backlash. All that needs to be said is "In my opinion, I don't consider you Goth if x y z" but all that IS said is "You're not Goth end of if x y z" well no, who made you the Goth gatekeeper? I don't care if YOU don't consider me Goth but telling me I'm not Goth at all is like...no, not your place to say!

[@cryptsandcatacombs3097]

also I love your outfit.

[@LadyLizzieLuna]

I really hate my outdated ipad, I seem to have a hard time hearing you while my heater is on.... I must be getting old and hard of hearing. 😳😭 Is there any way you can adjust the audio so that it's slightly louder? so sorry to make such a extream request.... but your voice is so soothing while I paint.

[@juless3568]

Best advice that makes me pleased to be a Goth. There is plenty of variety in the Goth subculture. It is not worth being Elitist. Elite yes, Elitist no.

[@missmurder9606]

creating a high archy in a subculture that is full of misfits is ironic but for those higher up and more educated should be humble

[@roseygraves2824]

I'm NOT "Goth" nor do I claim to be but...I love the whole culture and I ALWAYS wear black. 😎

[@ShleeBinesi]

Honestly that just seems like a human condition.... lmao

[@metalmyke1]

I would like to do a sit down with you and maybe a video sometime.

[@TheOWL-hy9lt]

I hate wine so I'm not goth lol so what does wine have to do with goth and if I don't wear black all the time i'm not goth? I love color and I'm gonna add that in my outfits that I wear, I'm a baby bat Horror goth/ goth lol

[@anadragos8340]

I disagree. I don't beileve that you would need to work your way up the "goth ladder" in order to speak your experince on what goth is. To me that is just another tool of control and conformity. In my opinion even if that person was new in to goth it doesn't mean that they're that much less of someone with experience with the culture because you never know you could learn off of the person that is new to the scene. It just all depends. What is baffling to me is that everyone thinks that goth is just one thing when its not. Just like with everything else people put goth into this closed box. When its about going against the norm. Why are people making goth into the next thing that is now the norm? I think that question should be the focus and fuck everything else.

[@kaleidojess]

37 seconds lol, I'm so so early (creative comment, I know)

[@coreym162]

Why have most people discussing this and related petty topics regarding "Goth" been missing the greater point of Goth? "Goth" isn't Goth. No Elders, No Hierarchy, No Fashion. The term "Goth" was meant as an insult by the media for these weird anti-Punk Halloweenies rejects that loved listening to weird music that sounded like it was played in a cave. Goth had no name. Who cared because, every fan of the Goth bands were only out to have "Fun"! It was , is and always only ever will only be about the music. Look at an old Bauhaus, Siouxsie and the Banshees, ASF, Sisters of Mercy, The Cure, New Order/Joy Division concert and tell me those people in the audience aren't Goth. Juggalo or not. Wearing Pink or not. There's nothing to debate about. People are too busy defining Goth fashion solely through the band's fashions that were only regurgitated interpretations of what they saw fans or other bands wear. If band fashion is the only Goth expression I guess it's time for every last Goth to start a band because, no one is Goth unless they do.

[@arthurwatts1680]

Your POV is far too intelligent and considered to be representative of other YTers ;) As a non-goth, my stereotype remains dark goth - my only 'claim' to that is being alive during the evolution to goth from punk as it happened on the streets of Sydney - not a single pastel goth in sight. Its worth noting that those early goths were even more quickly ostracized than punks by the predominately 'surfie' culture of Sydney - tagged 'swampies' and jeered by people who couldn't handle anything different to the norm. Mebourne was a better fit for goths and punks, but I'm sure a lot of the same attitudes persisted in the 'burbs. As our cities spawned edgier cafes, hairdressers and other businesses that accepted alternative lifestylers we started to see more goths but they remain a tiny minority among the conservative majority. Fast forward to 2017 and punks are (mostly) gone, but goth is still alive and thriving, at least on YT : you need to ask yourselves just how much you can dilute that 'original' dark goth with elements of scene/emo/whatever and retain something that is *recognizably goth* 20 years on. Feel free to ignore old farts like me - I wont be here in 2050 and I have no dog in this fight - but ask yourself if : industrial = goth ? kzbin.info/www/bejne/pYvEd2B3d7B2rac emo = goth ? kzbin.info/www/bejne/bJenqZKEn8uZmqM scene = goth ? kzbin.info/www/bejne/bIjWpqJtnL-Dn6M As I've probably pissed a few people off already, I'll blaze on. None of the 70s/80s punks that I grew up with would have wanted any part of scene or emo, esp the music. Industrial is a slightly tougher call for me, even if the imagery seems to be more Blade Runner than goth It's selfish of me to want to see dark goth (and my childhood memories of Lily Munster, Elvira etc) carried forward into the 21st century, but that's my two cents worth - dilute the core of the goth subculture at your peril. Thanks for the vid.