Zoe Lee: The Most USELESS Character In Miraculous?⎮A Miraculous Ladybug Season 5 Discussion

[@Blou1372]

You’re right! She has no flaws, her backstory was pretty vague, and she LITERALLY came out of nowhere. They didn’t even bother to at least hint a little throughout S1-3 that Chloe had a Half-Sister. I’ll be honest. I really tried to like Zoe, tried to feel sorry for Zoe but in the end, I ended up hating her when I figured out she was created to be a person Chloe could never be and replace Queen Bee, nothing else. Now she’s just exists in the background………..

[@michaelsarmiento3057]

I wonder how Mr. Lee raised her and what was her life in America before moving into France. Also, does she have any friends in America and what school does she go to before going into Marinette's school. What is the real reason why she moved to France and was Mr. Lee been a better father than Mayor Burguoise.

[@maralragchaasuren6852]

@@michaelsarmiento3057 Or even where Mr. Lee is and what he’s doing now…

[@Blou1372]

@@michaelsarmiento3057 Yeah… There is a VERY high possibility that we will never know who this man is…

[@kalayiademaronese4056]

And she's in love with Marinette lol.

[@caillou2275]

luka come out of nowhere too and y'all are in love with him

[@muranette835]

Imagine Zoe being the opposite of Chloe where she's friends with Marinette but dislikes Ladybug. She could have been such a realistic character who points out how BS it is Ladybug gets away with certain things. Not that Zoe doesn't want LB to win but there's just repercussions LB seems to get away with. Over time, she could have learned to like LB as well and maybe that's why she gets the Bee. But ALSO imagine Zoe being of importance where maybe she's one of the only people who's onto how sus Lila is. Besides Mari and Adrien she could have been someone who kept a good eye on Lila and found out a lot of what she's doing, kept it to herself until the right moment since "Lila is so good at lying" as every idiot in this show keeps saying.

[@springdemon.w.]

I'd love that omg

[@emmmm182]

You should've been the writer of this show tbh

[@adqueen2548]

That is a cool idea. I mean she is an actress so it'd be easy to figure it out fir her

[@72Worker]

Or it could be Zoe is sentimonster gifted from Gabe that neither parent knew what to do with after having one of their own for real.

[@lenastorm6280]

Yes! That would’ve been so much better!

[@shadowmarauder6033]

Zoe feels like she was introduced to have the good version of Chloe that Astruc hates for some reason. If he didn’t wan’t her as a good guy, don’t give her redeemable traits or give better reasons for her to relapse.

[@azanyo]

Agreed 100%. Zoe is an abomination (mi opinion of course) based on mixing Marinette's goody nature (plus craft skills and cheeks), Adrien's blond hair (and submissiveness) and Chloe's family. Painfully obvious she is there just to take the Bee miraculous from Chloe. But I have to admit, I would not have such a bad opinion of Zoe if the writers had not destroyed Chloe's character with so much absurdity! They are one of the many reasons my expectations for the show are (in average) zero! Anything can happen (and this is not a good thing)!😞

[@shadowmarauder6033]

@@azanyo when I first saw her I knew what was gonna happen but they started with some interesting storylines of her breaking away from the bad side of her family & being like a real daughter to the mayor. Too bad they dropped her off almost immediately.

[@noctisastrum7495]

Honestly yeah cause if they want a character to be the stand in for "sometimes people don't change for the better" why not Lila she could be chole's replacement while chole gets redeemed but whatever

[@azanyo]

@@shadowmarauder6033 Hello. You make a good point, there was potential for story / char development. Yet it is my belief that Thomas & writers do not wish for any character to outshine the protagonist (Marinette / LB), therefore they will avoid working on any char unless strictly necessary for whatever conclusion they may have in mind. That was - my opinion - Chloe's downfall; she was getting too much attention in Season 2 (worse, she was becoming popular). 🤔

[@virnalassiter382]

Yeah I wish that her redemption would come at the last minute instead of just the next season the reason I'm happy for natile's redemption is because I know she's just trying to save Emily and yeah even when Gabriel had another solution on saving his wife he still wants revenge on ladybug and cat noir and yeah donsen't deserve help from her and I'm happy for Sabrina because 1.thanks to her marionette is safe from Lila 2.I didn't hate her I just have nothing to do with her since she's a "friend" of chole and yeah now that she's betrayed chole and is joining marionette's side I say she deserves her miraculous back when they are retrieved and as for Felix well at first I thought he didn't deserve a redemption either when he was introduced he was like the male version of chole and yeah didn't want anything to do with him and yeah I don't even like his flamodoile I don't know how to pronounce or spell it so I am just going to call him dogman I don't like his dogman coustme but I do like his Argos coustme I would just like it better if he had his hair purple instead of blonde it would have looked better and yeah he tried to vanish ladybug and the alduts of Paris but it was nice of him to give marionette a dance thinking it's Adrian she's dancing with the wrong person but romantic and yeah he's doing everything to save kagmi and yeah she's able to have a boyfriend while Adrian is dating marionette and yeah I see that he's just trying to save Adrian from his father and is upset about no one coming to his father's funeral and yeah his clever plan saved ladybug and cat's friendship yeah there redemptions came as they have been bad for a long time chole has done anything to delvlop in season 1 and she just started to change in season 2? Yeah if only she has become nicer by the last minute I wouldn't have been afeded about her becoming a superhero

[@cacaumassipanoficial6203]

Unfortunately the show has too many characters, the episodes that Zoe featured could have been given to other old and beloved characters in need of development.

[@tama3162]

RIght? Just off the top of my head, Sabrina getting the Bee Miraculous would have way more oomf to it. She could be the worker bee to Chloe's Queen Bee, and there could be a lot more depth that could be found in Sabrina finding worth in herself, refusing to put up with Chloe anymore and acting like her mindless drone. Hell, Zoe, as much as I don't like her, just needed to be expanded on. She hates having to play into being a mean girl's yes-man, yet she falls into the role seamlessly whenever she so much as feels like she has to play that part, thanks to YEARS of implied bullying. She and Chloe could bond over them both vying for their mom's love and attention, only for the both of them to come up short unless they act like mini versions of Audrey. And, despite all this, Zoe still has a love for acting. Like??? C'mon!!!

[@maralragchaasuren6852]

@@tama3162 OMG Sabrina getting the Bee Miraculous would have been such an amazing idea!!

[@TheMagnaficent]

Imagine Marinette recruiting one of her parents or teachers for a mission

[@TheFelineBunny]

Yeppp WE NEEDED LUKA NOIR

[@cacaumassipanoficial6203]

@@TheFelineBunny YESSS

[@blorbo5537]

Adrien is already a GREAT foil for Chloe, they both grew up with wealth and one absent parent but they are completely different. IMO zoe didn’t need to be added if they redeemed Chloe. Also zoe literally looks like Gwen Stacy/ spider woman with that pink streak

[@virnalassiter382]

But it's not Zoe where trying to get Adrian in a relationship with over chole it's marionette

[@melg1605]

I guess Spiderman fans saw her like this in the comics many years ago for being "too perfect and just for decoration."

[@ryenguy]

@@virnalassiter382 take off your shipping goggles and read the text before you get defensive. being someone's foil isnt inherently romantic.

[@riotkitty]

It’s almost like her entire purpose is to be a perfect Chloe, and thus she doesn’t do anything outside of being her replacement in the hero group… She is legitimately the most pointless character in this show and just never needed to exist.

[@topgame2645]

Disagree

[@Mynameisaria932]

Fr

[@monerb7185]

facts

[@virnalassiter382]

I agree with the person who disagrees with you if you watch season 5 Zoe then you will see that she needed to exist

[@esayem7746]

@@Bezaliel13 That's obviously what they're going for, but it's stupid they needed to create a 14 year old to fix her own family.

[@fatherplatypus2316]

There's so many problems with her, i could make an essay: -She exist literally just as Queen Bee replacement. Honestly, Alya should be the new bee, since in Style Queen, she was LB's first choice. And since her identity as Rena has been exposed, it makes sense if she change miraculous from times to times, especially since she knows who LB is -There's no room at all for her to become a character. Her debut episode and her hero debut episode is literally side by side. The writers just couldn't give her space and time to be likeable by the fandom even if their life depends on it -Assuming the card game info is canon, then they should've hinted her in NY special. Have Chloe mentioned her, have Jess mentioned her, make us curious about her. Just add ONE line that hint her. Dont make her something that came out from a last second decision -She's in this limbo of important and not important character, and it'll depends on how plot convenient the episode gonna be for the writers. Heck, they literally waste Lila for the entirety of S4, despite supposedly being important

[@virnalassiter382]

Yeah I think I liked it better when alya didn't know that marionette is ladybug she's become very annoying sense then she can't even keep her identity a secret as Rena furtive to Nino and I think the reason why ladybug choosed a stranger over one of her close friends is because queen banana was too powerful to use her head as she usually does and she had to the person right next to her so like yeah just because she was choosing love over her brain donsen't mean she's choosing nice over her brain

[@Solaris.Energy]

Ngl, I think they should’ve made Chloe like Zoe. And also, we can put a line in when Chloe is angry where Sabrina says, “Do you want me to call Zoe to calm you down?” or something. Zoe could’ve at least been a character that DIDNT come out of nowhere with literally one line foreshadowing her debut.

[@rachelmariecaberapacheco7942]

Do you know how could have actually worked? 1) Let Chloe keep her redemption arc, was perhaps the only time the show was consistent on something and then they throw it out of the window (cause the main writer is a creepy guy who was Mari to be this perfect main character or else...really...creepy) So yeah, this scenario happens without that terrible season finale that was like a middle finger for everyone who watched the show till that point. 2) Introduce her younger, like 3 or 4 years younger than the cast, a girl that even Chloe herself didn't know about, then she learns this girl is the reason why her mother abandoned her, why she refused to bond with her when returned to Paris, cause she has a new perfect family in the USA (she fell off in love with her father, didn't connect with his daughter, she was an accident, Chloe was the reason she had to marry a man she didn't love and she resented the girl even if it wasn't her fault, then had an affair, felt in love with this man and ran away to the USA with him when got a new job promotion, leaving her husband and daughter behind, got a divorce and started a new life, since she loved her new husband, she loved the daughter she claims she decided to truly had), this would create a huge conflict with Chloe, she at first doens't want to know anythign abotu Zoe, she is rude again, mean as was in seaon 1, as ignores Zoe and even keeps distance from her... 3) Zoe, is a child, so she is still very innocent, she doesn't fully get the messy family situation she is in, and since she had love, affection, and attention from day 1, she is very sweet, kind and all, but also kind of is used to get what she wants by her own effort or extra help and pushes and right now, what she wants is a relationship with her sister, Chloe, since she wants a big sister (maybe she was lonely or perhaps her friends in her old country had older siblings to look up to and now she is in a new country, she doesn't know what to do, is scary and wanst someone to feel familiar with...since her parents love her, but lately are working a lot), but Chloe keeps rejecting her, pushing her aside and being mean 4) This eventually hurt the little girl, who is new and scared in a new place, and her possible new sister, the one that could help her feel better, hates her...Chloe doesn't care about her feelings (or acts as if she doesn't care, she is hurt deep down as well and pushing her frustrations and anger towards this kid), while Zoe leaves crying, Chloe gets reprimanded, by no other but Adrain and even freaking Sabrina is like, "Hey, that... that was pretty mean, even for you...", the two confront Chloe, who finally opens ut and tells them how she really feels and they help her to realize she is basically acting like how her mother acts and treats her... 5) Zoe is depressed, and crying, she feels lonely, scared, and despair...she feels so little, insignificant...weak...and hates to feel that way, and due to her terrible broken feelings which she just wants to get rid of them, get rid of all these negative emotions...so she gets akumatized, in exchange of her help, the villain promises that she won't feel sad ever again and will even help her to gain the love of her sister, she accepts without second thought and boom! 6) Chloe sees this and feels guilty, is when Chat Noir appears and who convinces her to help after he goes to meet her to give her one chance to be a hero after she is like, "Its all my fault, no matter what, I will always be mean, I will always be a bad person!", that he knows she messed up, yet she needs to clean up her mistakes, Chloe finds Chat for once comforting like, "...why, why it feels I do know you? Like...for real..." Chat yet quickly makes her focus on the situation (so the idea of him being "familiar" doesn't sinks in), so Chloe helps them, Lady Bug is like, "I don't trust her..." yet ends up helping them, after all is over...Chloe apologizes to Zoe and promises she will try to be a better big sister... 7) Zoe and Chloe don't have a perfect relationship, after the incident, cause of their family situation...yeah, not the best...and there are still frictions here and there, but they also start to warm up to each other, Chloe with this even learns to be a little more responsible, while her sister evolves as a character... 6) As for Zoe, who knows? Maybe we eventually learn she is smart and perhaps is the one in the show that isn't an idiot and picks on how LB looks similar to Mari, yet everyone brushes her off cause "You are just a kid, what could you know!" making her be like, "...Stupid teens...-3-" and eventually, she also picks on how really messy her family situation is, how hard Chloe also had it and little by little, the two sister grow a strong bond...heck, maybe could be an episode moment, where Mari has to leave quickly, leaving Alya and Chloe alone and Chloe, turns to Alya and in a dismissive way as a tsundere type, asks how she gets along with her sisters (the younger ones), and makes silly questions of how to bond with kids, Alya is confused at first till she realizes how Chloe is actually asking for advice to get closer to Zoe, so Alya, even if she finds her silly, thinks is kind of cute and helps her, or at last, is hinted Alya gave Chloe tips on how to handle younger kids and Chloe in exchange looks more relieved, this would show how even little by little Chloe is becoming a better person...she is still Chloe, she can still be sassy at times, lose her temper here and there and can be spoiled at times, but clearly is becoming a better version of herself and wants to be a better person than her own mother...I don't know...at last Zoe would feel like her own character, not a replacement and we would have character development, even new connections slowly forming...(again, these could be background moments, nothign huge, just hints of how Zoe is a possitive influence in Chloe and how Zoe is slowly growing and getting closer to her sister, even if its not perfect) Sorry for the long replay, maybe is just a silly idea? Too much for a kids' cartoon?

[@jebediahmiller1458]

@@rachelmariecaberapacheco7942 This is brilliant.

[@_W_i_s_t_e_r_i_a_]

​​@@rachelmariecaberapacheco7942Please re-write the entirety of miraculous. This is such an interesting concept and fleshes out both Zoe and Chloe's backstory

[@anaya9416]

I honestly think that making Chloe’s half-sister the bee miraculous holder is so cruel. Chloe worked hard to earn it and then Zoe pops up out of nowhere and in the second episode, she gets a miraculous. Other people waited episodes or even seasons to get one. I honestly feel like there trying too hard to make us like her. I also feel like they rushed her backstory. She mentioned in her first episode that she was mistreated by her parents and stuff. Chloe’s backstory was done well. You know the saying “show don’t tell”? They did that with Chloe in I think the episode Despair Bear. And she achieved her goals in her SECOND episode. She said she wanted to be an actor, then in Queen Banana she was the star in a film. I like Zoe but it’s very obvious she’s a replacement for Chloe.

[@michaelsarmiento3057]

Zoe should have gotten the wasp miraculous because Vesperia is a wasp. Zoe Lee's costume resemble a wasp, not a bee.

[@narnia1233]

Another idea is maybe Chloe’s miraculous could have changed into the wasp miraculous after she became villainess. Wasps typically are seen as more aggressive and negatively than bees. I find it really strange the symbolism that occurred in the show by introducing Zoe as essentially the wasp (vespera means wasp) miraculous user. Because technically a villain character should have the wasp animal symbol whereas the hero should have the bee animal symbol. It could be really interesting if the magical animal creatures might be able to transform too based on their owners. (And maybe make that apply only to certain animal characters). That way we could even get some cool symbolism of Chloe’s transformation as a character. As she goes from wanting to be a hero to becoming a villain entirely.

[@narnia1233]

Could have been some fun banter too. Maybe something like, you’re no longer a Queen anymore. You’re just a spiteful wasp! Or whatever. It’s just strange to me though. That Chloe is still essentially called the Queen Bee and has all the bee symbolism. As the ruler of a peaceful hive. It’s usually a symbol for a good leader essentially. And it’s strange for Chloe to still have that symbolism now that the writers are determined to make her a villain.

[@Pastelglitterunicorn]

What could have happened with Zoe and Chloe was that Chloe would redeem herself and release herself from her mother’s control, prompting Audrey to bring Zoe into the picture (having seen Zoe as a “backup”, this detail among others causing Andre and Audrey to split) so while Chloe is now working on improving herself Zoe is now under Audrey’s control. Zoe serves as a temporary minor antagonist this way, seeing being mean in a similar way Chloe did, the only way to earn her mother’s love which is different for Zoe and more important considering she hadn’t been a part of her life in the way she was Chloe’s (while Chloe saw her just as much as Zoe did, Chloe had more of a luxury in that she could revel in her mother’s fame unlike Zoe who was bullied for it). Chloe eventually sees this and helps Zoe out of Audrey’s grip, standing up to her in the process. Zoe reveals everything about why she was brought to Paris at all, and so Andre and Audrey divorce and Audrey is left in shambles with her reputation in ruins.

[@narnia1233]

I will say I definitely agree with you though. I am still in the “I wanted Chloe to become a true hero” camp. I think that is the most interesting story that could have been told-and honestly the most kid friendly too. It’s a very uplifting message to give to anyone watching the show if Chloe did change and become a better person. But, I like talking about story concepts. And so I will think about how a villain tale could be done as well. But yeah, all your points are valid. I also thought that the dynamic between Ladybug and Chloe was actually really interesting and fun. Basically Chloe was kind of the only one in the original hero team (Nino, Alya, Ladybug, Cat Noir, Chloe) who questioned Ladybug’s decisions. When they were together planning to fight against Hawkmoth, Chloe didn’t immediately accept Ladybug’s plans but questioned it. Same during other times she fought alongside Ladybug. Of course Chloe was incorrect, but basically in real life it’s actually a good thing to have someone in your group who is willing to speak up and question things. To have a separate viewpoint. Because chances are eventually they will actually be correct and even if they aren’t correct it helps to solidify that a plan is good. I actually really thought that was intriguing. It’s kind of like having a friendly rival. Because Chloe admired Ladybug but she still wanted to be the best. So, they had this kind of rivalry on the superhero team. Rivalry among a team of superheroes isn’t necessarily a bad thing-it actually can be a very good thing. It’s like the rivalry that exists between Sailor Moon and Sailor Mars. They’re famously always disagreeing and had a rivalry. Sailor Mars always calling the protagonist a moron essentially-yes, she said that to the main character. But, ultimately it actually benefited the team-and they were both wanting to be superheroes so were ultimately on the same page. Despite being vastly different in opinion and personality. There’s lots of other shows with rivalries. In Sonic, he has a famous rivalry with Knuckles. And various other characters too. Ultimately it’s a friendly rival. In Ben 10 there’s a rivalry between Ben and I forget his name but the guy his cousin includes on the team. And etc., etc. I thought Chloe and Ladybug actually had kind of a similar vibe. And I really wanted to see how that superhero rivalry would develop over time. Plus just knowing that there’s the possibility of their relationship changing in a big way if Ladybug’s identity was revealed to Chloe was intriguing too. Instead of having just one reveal to look forward to-Ladybug and Cat Noir-adding a reveal to the rival on the team was so interesting to me. But, yeah, all my hopes were dashed too.

[@joeljohansson3615]

I've seen some comments about Zoe being the nice Chloé replacement. And I one hundred procent agree. Thomas Asstruc just created her because he hates Chloe and want her to be an unredeemable villain. Even if he has Lila. They could have kept good Chloé who still has some slip up attitude. But still being nicer than before. Lila could have been the unredeemable character and skipped Zoe. I also agree that Zoe feels forced and remember. She got her miraculous the episode right after her introduction episode. She's canonically the holder who got her miraculous the fastest. If we don't talk about Marinette and Adrien. I don't hate Zoe. But I don't like her purpose in the story. They could have made her a helping hand to Chloe's redemption.

[@monerb7185]

i will always see as this instead of doing 1 good character (chloes redemption) that would have benifited everyone involved arc they chose to do 2 awful ones that wasted time

[@MiraculousHolder365]

Agreed, and like Smarty Pants said, "the bee was one of the big ones", so she shouldn't have gotten it if there was going to be barely anything done with her character besides being the opposite of Chloe.

[@esayem7746]

@@MiraculousHolder365 This! Drives me crazy how Marinette gives out Miraculous like candy but to give one of the big ones to someone she literally just met? Smh

[@springdemon.w.]

@@esayem7746 LITERALLY

[@langdonledwig3734]

That is why season 2 is by far the best season yet because it actually developed Chloe yes she wasn’t outright good but she actually was working on being a better person

[@little.prince]

Zoe is just the result of Chloe’s redemption arc, without having gone through it. She literally only exists because Thomas didn’t like Chloe as a character. Ridiculous. Utterly ridiculous.

[@notmyrealname453]

The worst thing about her is that many of her traits were already displayed with other characters. Nice to everyone: Rose. Shy: Juleka, Marc. Anxious (in Sole Crusher, at least): Mylene, Marinette. Troubled home life: Adrien. There is nothing about her that makes her stand out.

[@notmyrealname453]

(SPOILERS FOR ADORATION) Even being LGBTQ+ isn't unique to her. Rose, Juleka, Nathaniel, and Marc, anyone? It feels like they just did it so that Astruc can accuse Zoė's haters of being homophobic.

[@SkyDiamond158]

@@notmyrealname453I feel like they just added that to make people like her more

[@hirahiro2331]

Hell, if she had a new York accent, that'd make her unique (a bit). For the sisters, they could have worked on their relationship and show Chloeand Zoe growing closer, even if Chloe stays an ass to everyone else. In due time, she'll prolly change.

[@virnalassiter382]

Ha maybe that would have worked for me

[@francisthefrancis9716]

You know the problem about not only Zoe, but the other miss developed characters? Its the fact that the series prioritized majority of the episodes on the Adrienette ship instead of certain characters, which wouldnt be a problem, if the ship actually got well developed throughout the show! Cus majority of those Adrienette episodes end up of having little to no progress at all and than now at season 5 they actually got a lot of progress and are finally dating! And I wonder, why so many episodes doing that if you decide to put the actual ship development at the end? We already know they are endgame, now just focus on the other characters! Like Zoe, Mark, Nathaniel, Millene, Kim, Evan, any other person! Dont make 90% of your show focused on a thing that you only developed at the end! Thats just a miss opportunity. But well, thats my take.

[@virnalassiter382]

Yeah season 5 is giving well most of the things we've been waiting for 4 seasons ladybug and cat noir are finally getting along marionette now loves Adrian as true love Lila's finally getting exposed chole's getting the revenge she deserves ms bustia is coming around punishing chole marionette and adrian are finally dating

[@narnia1233]

You’re correct. That is a huge problem with the show as well. It’s beyond frustrating for example the number of times they have literally wiped the characters memories just to remove the reveal. To stop the relationship from progressing at every opportunity. They should have focused mainly on the plot but have the best romantic moments throughout. And never ever have a fake reveal. Each and every romantic moment should have affected their behavior and relationship and been part of the plot. But, since they wanted to keep that until the very end, they should have focused on other plot points instead and other characters throughout. Basically only have time for small romantic moments while they’re fighting the villains. And have other characters story arcs take precedence.

[@virnalassiter382]

You know sense they were able to date without revealing their identities and their alter egos are getting along as simple friends I wonder how they will react to the real reveal and yes those moments were too beautiful to forget in obliveo while they didn't remember there superhero lives or lives as their normal selfs they were able to see each other detransform in front of each other interacte with each other as their civilian selfs and ladybug was able to tell Adrian that she donsen't want anything to happen to him and yes I love the ladynoir kiss in this episode but when ladybug uses her lucky charm to get their memories back she's back to being ladyjerk and yeah never take a ladynoir picture as long as ladybug isn't in love with cat noir in cat blanc when Adrian found out that marionette is ladybug he and her were going to start dating and yes it was so beautiful when cat sacrificed exposing himself to save marionette but because of the destruction it is making bunnix just came to stop the whole charade before anything happened ha screw you bunnix you could have just waited until cat did become akumized and then at least marionette would have known cat noir's identity she needs to know that cat noir and adrian are the same person more than Adrian needs to know that marionette and ladybug are the same person because yeah Adrian believes that they are the same person marionette donsen't compare Adrian anything to cat noir in ephramel this is the most pointless one ever I was so excited for this episode because of the "reveal" and yeah it's the 100th episode and as you can see what Adrian told ladybug of how awful it is hiding cat noir from her and is all like I'm so glad I don't have to do it anymore well you spoke to soon Adrian if you haven't called my lady you wouldn't have to forget who ladybug is and yeah I wish they got bunnix to save the day instead of vipreon then she would have just came to get Adrian to not call marionette my lady and yeah they still would have known their identities it's not fair that only the person who makes the do over can remember what happened then

[@goros2289]

Thomas Astruc admitted that he added Zoe for the purpose of retconning Chloe’s character, because he “didn’t like” that the fans were growing more attached to Chloe than Marinette (and rightfully so) At least we can rest easy knowing that Zoe will forever be remembered as the most blatant attempt at character assassination in fiction to this day

[@toonbafoon903]

Woah, can you link a source??

[@lou9635]

That's how you see that m. Astruck writes like a beginner. Let me explain: - Problem: your audience begins to love more your bully character than your main character and it's not your attention. - Beginner writer reaction: undo everything, go back to the statu quo and add a character to replace the good part of the bully. - Experimented writer: makes the bully do something terrible that show that the redemption arc was just manipulation and makes the main character grows as a better person. One is laziest and quickest than the other, but the audience can never be fooled.

[@nonzamemange7612]

Are you serious so all this is about his hatred of chloe again

[@mochalatte8362]

​@@nonzamemange7612Yes and, as usual, the show tanked his F-teir mistakes 🤦‍♂️

[@unknownuser9695]

Why would you like an arrogant daddy's girl more than a sweet girl who helps everyone out? Don't even think about saying "oh well, Marinette just gets away with stuff" she doesn't get away with shit

[@aruvius]

People say Zoe should’ve been hinted throughout the show, but I’m convinced the reason why she never had that foreshadow was because she was made up on the spot, in the middle of a season because Thomas was sick of Chloe and her fans. The Bee miraculous was getting used less and less anyway, so it wouldn’t have been hard to just tweak the writing of a few scenes to fully replace Chloe.

[@paisley2659]

it frustrates me how obvious the lack of planning with this show is. whenever i rewatch, i catch small inconsistencies, and it is frustrating. when i was HARDCORE in the fandom, thomas astruc would be on twitter just saying stuff, dropping bits of information, to make it look like the entire thing was planned all along when it very clearly hasnt been. it is honestly somewhat difficult to keep up with the lore (like how the miraculous work, their origins, etc) because they will give the tiniest bit of information in one season, AND THEN NEVER ELABORATE ON IT, because they decided to focus on other things in the next season, IT IS SO INFURIATING. they just throw stuff at you, stuff you cannot even theorize about or pick up on in earlier seasons, which creates such an unsatisfying rewatching experience because once the surprise is gone, there is no joy. the only reason i even rewatch the show is because i enjoy seasons 1 and 2 because THEY WERE ACTUALLY GOOD AND THE CHARACTERS WERE STILL GOOD.

[@Grom1477]

​@@paisley2659I think you need to accept the fact, that the show in its core is braindead fodder to sell toys and merch to teens. It was never intended to be deep or even consistent. Keep calm and move on.

[@kiko-pr1rq]

Zoe won the battle, but Chloe won the war.

[@phantom115cw]

What war

[@maverickhanecak1682]

She’s weak! WEAK!!

[@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaDooplivian]

Is that a mean girls musical reference?!

[@monerb7185]

@@phantom115cw the war of being plot relevant

[@maverickhanecak1682]

For Chloé and Lila, @@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaDooplivian , yes

[@borikidor]

Zoe felt like a walking writing that says: "Like me and hate Chloe."

[@riotkitty]

Indeed. That’s her entire purpose, to be a perfect version of Chloe so that Chloe will be hated more. But the opposite effect was achieved lol

[@imanijoybassey3994]

And achieved it was

[@andrewshearsby8125]

and yet she was hated in her old school for being a liar and ms "I hate Liars" Marinette lets her in her group?

[@topgame2645]

Zoe is better than Chloe🤦‍♂️

[@topgame2645]

@@riotkitty no no 50/50

[@tama3162]

Even ignoring the mess that was Astruc reacting to fans on Twitter, Zoe being nothing but a nicer, fluffier version of Chloe was clear from the start right down to her name. You take one look at her and know she's related to Chloe, but if that somehow wasn't obvious enough, her hero debut episode as Vesperia just has her whole fight center around baiting Chloe (Queen Banana, ugh) by gushing about how much better Vesperia is and how we're never getting Queen Bee again. Like ALRIGHT, WE GOT IT. I think the worst thing about Zoe is that the writers didn't even bother to give her anything else to do. They didn't even try acting like she had space in the cast as a character, rather than a new random stock design they could pull out whenever they needed a crowd in a scene. Her character _seemed_ to center around acting to please others _AT FIRST_ - she clearly loves it or is naturally gifted at it, but also hated having to act so much at her old school and around Audrey - but then that gets completely dropped. And because the writers are so hellbent on making Chloe as unsympathetic as possible, there's no room for depth within the Bourgeois family. None of Chloe and Zoe's relationship being explored; none of them relating to each other for having to act like mini copycats of their own mom just to get her to acknowledge them. None of Audrey's own feelings on Zoe, not even a hint of how Audrey was able to just up and leave Zoe behind with a man she probably doesn't even remember after carrying her for 9 months. She's Marinette's new #bestie but she could've been linked to Adrien too, unless the Bourgeois and the Agrestes cut each other off. But the worst thing about all of this potential depth is that we still didn't need it. If the writers really wanted the Bee to go to anybody else but Chloe, they still have the rest of Marinette's class. She could switch up the Bee Miraculous user to keep it from getting stolen or tracked. A comment I read in here mentioned that Alya could just take over as the Bee wielder after Rena Rouge was outed and it'd still be safe. Or just have Marinette constantly unify the Ladybug and the Bee whenever she needs to. It's not like she has to wear the hairpin like a hairpin _all the time_ and unifying/wearing multiple Miraculous only seem to backfire when a person uses them too much and abuses them. Y'know, something Marinette knows not to do.

[@rosesinseptember]

oh lord, all of this. From a thematic perspective, it'd make more sense to hand the bee over to Alya, Sabrina or Soqeline - all of them established foils to Chloé with established places in Marinette's life, who each in their own way would display something meaningful in the way they'd take up the mantle - rather than introducing the bizarro version of Chloé.

[@owohscorner]

An 80s themed bee miraculous wielder with the bee comb in their afro would be cool.

[@ariichan-07]

@@rosesinseptember first time seeing Socqueline getting recommended, it would be so nice if she would get a miraculous or something. i mean she is older than Marinette, was seen as someone she could lean on and learn from, and just a good, kind person.

[@rosesinseptember]

@@ariichan-07 Most importantly: do something to mend the gigantic plot hole of WHY Marinette would give miraculous to all her classmates and randos she's spoken to twice (oh hi Marc) rather than the girl who by all accounts changed her life by being SUCH an idol.

[@DarkFoxKit]

When Zoe was first introduced, I could see some potential there. She had a hard life back at home, and she was trying hard to fit in with her family, to the point she was willing to make herself be mean to everyone just so Chloe and her mother would accept her. We got to see the mayor's softer side, and standing up to his wife and daughter so Zoe wouldn't be forced out onto the streets. It was interesting to see Zoe getting akumatized to be more like Chloe. But then she was pretty much tossed aside until it was time to show the audience that she was getting the Bee Miraculous, and 'see how much better she is than Chloe?' The entire episode was shoving in our faces at how awful Chloe is, and how awesome Zoe was, the characters themselves kept pointing it out. And that felt incredibly degrading and insulting to us as the audience, not to mention childish. It was like the show writers were proud to shove in our faces how much they hated Chloe and that we should too and love her replacement Zoe. And after showing off their brand new toy, they just dumped her onto the shelf until they need her again. And that's why I think so many people have a problem with Zoe, and Chloe tearing down her own character arc. At least that's why _I_ had a problem with it. I love character arcs, and I hate seeing it being torn down for no real reason other than the writers having a vendetta against their _own_ character that _they_ created.

[@delphoxhoopa7289]

THIS! ALL OF THIS!! 👆

[@esayem7746]

Hit the nail on the head!

[@pinkyinroblox7256]

I honestly like the how chole didn't get a character arc about you know it just shows not everyone can change like ladybug Adrien Zoe they tried to change her but she didn't it shows not how much you tries for someone to change if they don't if they don't want to

[@DarkFoxKit]

@@pinkyinroblox7256 She did get a character arc, that's the problem. Sure, in real life, people can't change if they don't want to. But this isn't real life. You have to be mindful in how you handle characters on a TV show,. But giving a character an entire character arc, then take it away, then act like it never happened, is just bad writing. If Chloe never got a character arc to begin with, or if they didn't make Chloe even more one dimensional than she is now after the character assassination, it wouldn't be so bad.

[@Moth_Witch24]

Every episode is literally shoving in our faces that Chloe is the worst.

[@kainightshade5033]

Yeah, Zoe is pointless story wise and it's sad. It's so sad. What would've redeemed this is like you said, having Chloe wanting to have it out with Zoe but no. She still has this unreal hatred for Marinette that was never fully explained and she's teaming up with Lila, presumably, to kill her. Cause trust me, Lila doesn't just want Marinette ruined, that psycho wants her dead...

[@jadespiral4673]

Yeah Lila needs some sort of attachment therapy…

[@jules6735]

Considering that there was a short vid of Lila cutting the heads out of photos of Marinette I agree…that’s a psych0path move in the movies

[@kainightshade5033]

@@jules6735 Absolutely! I saw that scene and thought "WTF?!"...

[@craigpeoples9883]

Yeah she you know that when Kagami became Oni-Chan she wanted her to off Ladybug

[@dancordea9149]

​@@craigpeoples9883 Just like how she wanted Riposte Prime to off Marinette too in Protection so she could convince Gabriel to give her Adrien.

[@kou7191]

That's partially what annoyed me so much about Chloe's character assassination. It's not that she was robbed of a redemption arc, it's that it was a blatant retcon made on a whim, and done very sloppily at that. Both Chloe and Zoe are basically wasted potential.

[@whimsy3583]

If they really wanted to replace the bee miraculous, I really thought Sabrina would be a good choice. It would an interesting dynamic having Chloe's henchman be who Chloe couldn't. I'd almost say it'd be poetic.

[@ИванКорнилов-у7ю]

Аврора

[@lenastorm6280]

Honestly, I hate Zoe. She feels like a fanfiction-Mary-Sue. She has no personality other then being nice. Everyone (except Chloe) loves her for NO reason. The evil Chloe hates poor, poor Zoe for no reason. Marinette trusts her with a miraculous after barley knowing her. She also gives her her phone-number on the day they met. Are you kidding me? I think she looks cool, both in her civilian-form and as Vesperia, but that's it. It is idiotic, that she has never been mentioned before and came out of nowhere. (But tbh that goes for a lot of characters like Felix or Marinette's grandparents and uncle.) And worst of all: She just exist because Thomas hates Chloe. She exist because of pettiness.

[@topgame2645]

I think that Thomas did the right thing with Chloe, I also didn’t like her from the very beginning and didn’t like her.

[@virnalassiter382]

Yeah I agree with you 100% I hated her since the first season and she just started to act nice by the second season and yeah I think season 2 is too early at least the other characters that got a redemption made their redemption at the right time if they did to chole I would have gotten over chole becoming a superhero and yeah didn't need Zoe to have the holder of the bee miraculous be a nice person

[@michaelsarmiento3057]

Lena Storm, I suggest you go to Callimara's Miraculous Rewrite. It is significantly better than the show's canon.

[@FurōruHana]

Nahhh don't do Felix like that XD bro's in the Pilot

[@Moth_Witch24]

I think you mean chloe. Not Zoe.

[@yaaaas9778]

I think it's crazy that even characters like Ivan or Kim feel more charasmatic than Zoe. When I think of Ivan, Kim, Max, Rose, etc. each one has their one personality and is cool, cute and annoying in different ways. But when I think of Zoe I just feel...nothing. Even though she's nice, there's nothing that makes her character remarkable in any way. The other characters might be stupid and a bit bland at times, but they're still charming while Zoe is clearly not

[@AM-jh8ug]

Chloe could’ve just had a solid redemption arc. The fans always do her more justice than the show dies creatively.

[@riotkitty]

Yeah I’ve seen some really good fanfic out there, I got one myself where Chloe and Marinette in the epilogue become best friends, Chloe being a model for Marinette’s clothes, and they even have a double wedding.

[@TheSultan1470]

No.

[@lisackezy]

this character is literally here to show us that some people DON’T change.

[@ktyank]

@@lisackezy nope! she’s just there because astruc didn’t like people favouring Chloe better than marinette when she had her redemption arc. Zoe’s the most useless character in the show.

[@paisley2659]

@@lisackezy even if that was the case, miraculous is a show for a younger audience than it has attracted first and foremost. that would be an AWFUL lesson to teach to children. thomas astruc himself has explained the emphasis on ladybug over chat noir (despite the fact they are partners and supposed equals) as being due to the fact the show is for young girls.

[@powerpuff6872]

It's a little funny how a lot of the most prominent side characters aren't even in the class/were featured later. Lila was a big thing in season two but only became relevant again at the end of season 4. Luka and kagami have marginal relevance along with Felix who is now a big player. Chloe is an overused villain who has been punished so much that it feels like beating a dead horse. Zoe doesn't really add anything to the story other than that she's the new bee holder, and had her tiny story arc that just ended with her being another loving goon for marinette.

[@andresomerville4896]

Zoey had a lot of potential. She started of as the outsider trying to find out how to act in order to fit in. Plus She was from New York, where their are different heroes, and presumably different standards of heroism than Paris. Their could have been a culture clash as she integrated with Ladybug's crew.

[@Till_is_alive_trust]

In my opinion, Zoe doesn’t really seem likable, simply making her a good person isn’t the same as making her a good character. And after Queen Banana, she unintentionally became dislikable while painting it as some sort of good thing.

[@jedemu]

I think that you're hitting the nail on the head when it comes to Zoes missed potential. She should've been one of the more prominent side characters, but she's barely anything more then a background character like Luka Honestly, at this point, I wished Chloe took the Bee Miraculous from Ladybug during Miracle Queen and teamed up with Lila during season 4 or 5, instead of introducing Zoe. There are a lot more side/background characters that need some development (Ivan, Marc, Nathaniel and Sabrina come to mind because of Penalteam), so adding another underdevelopped character seems wasteful, looking back at what happened

[@annieandelsieofarendelle3294]

The story I came up for Zoe is that she isn’t actually Chloe’s sister. She isn’t even human, she’s a sentimonster whose role is to act like an upgraded Optigami and able to manipulate memories and perceptions of herself making Audrey believe she’s her daughter and Chloe her sister and the entire class to be her friend. Quickly, she integrates herself into the class and becomes Vesparia but it is all an act. She’s just doing her duty to Shadow Moth. That is until she start to care about the class which starts causing conflict between what she was created for and what she actually wants.

[@FeligamiAdrizoeSworaDooplivian]

It's sad that she's a useless character. Because if given some better writing and personality. She could be great! She's like white bread. Without any layers. She isn't unique.And as someone who likes Zoe Lee. It's rather unfortunate. Not to mention her falling in love with Marinette feels incredibly forced. It's just like a girl x girl version of Adrienette. Which is also a forced ship!

[@KathyakaNina]

100% agree that Zoe "liking" Marinette DEFINITELY felt VERY forced. There was nothing that was leading or hinting to her developing actual feelings

[@ajjustice9]

Zoe reminds me of Chloe from Fairly Odd Parents for some reason-

[@katiat7278]

What if Zoe's purpose in the show is to be the bridge between Chloe and the rest of the class once she's dumped by Lila, leading to her ultimate redemption? If Lila dumps her of course, but Lila strikes me as someone who'd have no problem backstabbing her bestie.

[@kbraven7007]

That’s not a bad idea and I can totally see it happening

[@katiat7278]

@@kbraven7007 Thanks! I can't take full credit for this idea as I've heard it somewhere, but I like it too!

[@senylalala]

i’d love that!

[@llamalinguist3250]

They created Lila to replace Chloe as the villain when starting Chloe's redemption arc. Then Zoe to replace her when they decided to scrap it. Both characters only exist when the plot needs them to, which is worse with Lila since she's supposed to be in their class.

[@ariichan-07]

the only difference is that they did a good job with Lila, we hate her character, but she is defo interesting to watch. Zoe is just... existing in the same universe, jumping in sometimes when needed, otherwise she is forgettable.

[@usonohoshi6165]

Her idea isn't that bad. And with the fact that people can just switch Miraculous pretty much at any time, this would have been a great strategy to trick hawkmoth that Chloe was replaced. But in reality, she and Zoey could have been sharing it so that it's harder for the enemy to tell who owns a miraculous. They could also do this with other characters. Putting them into pairs or groups to confuse the enemy when they think they got a lead of a holder. This is a concept, as far as I know, that has NEVER been done before.

[@johanroyce6324]

A plot point I really gets addressed is Zoe's one friend from New York because I remember her saying that she only had one friend there.

[@DasharStar]

No your pretty much right she literally came for out of no where and everyone likes her chloe was a more interesting character and I feel like she also resonated with kids from broken homes or single parent households like me personally the only one who really raised her was her Butler her father didn't do anything and from her point of view her mother just abandon her then when she does come back the worst parent who can't even remember her own daughter's name and when she actually found a way to make her acceptable to her mother she took it her own mother chose Marinette over her take to New York the more I think about it the more is just heartbreaking to hear

[@colestawicki7760]

If Cat Walker is a thing, why the hell can't Chole just use the Bee Miraculous and make up a new hero identity?

[@PlutoPlanetoid]

I would've loved seeing what was used for Zoe as Chloe's redemption arc. Not for others but for herself. I can picture her seeing people not being able to accept her efforts to change so she has to go deeper, harder, undercover to make up for what she's done, or at least try and help ladybug without the bee miraculous. Say she even witnessed Ladybugs failure to protect all the miraculous and somehow gets a hold of the bee comb again. And like Adrian's personality change to alter his costume, she does the same and helps more covertly. (I.E wears a beanie to hide the comb, and changed her style altogether because a beanie with her current outfit is an obvious travesty.) And with such a change, it's almost as if everyone doesn't recognize her. Even Sabrina is confused, tries to figure out her "friend's" change and Chloe withdraws. Not because she hates her but because she wants to keep her safe/grow some more to be a friend Sabrina deserves, whatever reason she gives. What does she get from this? She learns even superheroes are flawed and if ladybug was still someone she cared about she starts trying to stand up for her, being a Tuxedo Mask Rose in those times that Ladybug and Cat Noir just couldn't cut it. And if there came a time she slips up and Ladybug discovered it was all Chloe, she lets her protect the miraculous because she became the Queen Bee who earned her crown, thus giving way to the idea that maybe trusting others to guard a single miraculous and lighten the burden might not be so bad an idea. But "Once a villain, always a villain." Eh, Astruc? I mean, I guess this was Thomas's attempt at self therapy/revenge so I can see why he doubled down on Chloe if it was a projected personal issue. Even sadder though when a majority of the potential of a story is thrown away over this but his story, his choice.

[@sunnysong9122]

Honesty I hated her from the start. Her only propose was to replace Chloe, they ruined a perfectly good character to bring her in, she has no flaws and got along with eeryone imidiatly, AND THEN BETRAYED CHLOE. SHE LITTERALY KNEW THAT THE BEE MIRACULUS BELONGED TO CHLOE AND SHE STILL HAD THE AUDASITY TO TAKE IT

[@Kodzukies]

It was for Chloe’s safety hawkmoth knew her identity this put Chloe in a lot of danger 🌚

[@Owell_Owl]

She replaces the characters role not the character herself

[@K41Teto41]

Zoe aka Vesperia is a real wasp. Wasps invade beehives, steal honey from bees, and kill bees. Zoe took Chloe's house, Chloe's family, Chloe's life. Chloe literally moved to another city and her father abandoned her and adopted Zoe, who now lives where Chloe lives. It's a unique use of related animals, as bees are usually depicted as the good ones and wasps as the bad ones. But bees are also productive, hard-working, and good for the environment, unlike Chloe who is far from it.

[@michaelsarmiento3057]

Not only that, Vespa means Wasp in italian. Vespa is the italian word for wasp.

[@hijimnny]

@@michaelsarmiento3057And latin

[@KanaHyoshi]

After Miracle Queen, the show should have shuffled who got what power because their own identities were also compromised. A small arc about our heroes learning new powers with Ladybug and Catnoir would have been interesting and probably would have had a better pay off. The cast is big, so keeping the focus on a small, main group of holders would have helped. It even had a little setup! Alya with the bee, Hawkmoth stealing a couple like the fox and maybe the horse, rabbit, or the turtle and that leads to Lila getting to be a real Vulpina or an even tougher villain. But nah. The writers went the long route and the storyline for Zoe fell flat. Like dang. They could have even made Zoe's arc longer! Maybe Chloe had written to her because he mother forced her because she was planning to go back to New York, but then Uno Reverse happens and Zoe ends up in Paris. As a result, Zoe thinks this Marinette girl is the worst (cuz y'all know Chloe would lie) and she was lead to believe that Lila is a great friend. So we'd have this mean girls clique that make Marinette's life miserable, and Zoe slowly sees that she is on the wrong side. That would take more time, but it would have eliminated some filler while also keeping us fed on story until Felix shows up to satisfy viewers.

[@anordinarygurl9642]

Apparently Thomas took more of a backseat in S2 and so I forgot who was mostly in charge but they really wanted to give close a redemption. And that's what happened but then Thomas came back as a Major component and so it leads to now where he destroyed everything the other writer did in order to have cloe unreadable. Just because she reminds him of his ex 😒😮‍💨

[@ayrasshrine4036]

Am i first ? Lol But on a serious note Zoe's existence is ridiculous utterly ridiculous

[@liltmarshall8717]

💯

[@johay899]

True

[@amandaslough125]

As a whole, Zoe shouldn't exist because she was made out of spite to retcon a well written character. If Zoe _has_ to exist, she shouldn't be related to Chloe at all. She could keep the Zoe name, maybe, and even be uneasy about how the class / LB keeps acting like she's a Chloe replacement with the name being the main signifier. But she should just be a random American who moved in. Maybe an exhange student who won a context to work with Chloe's mom and she's joining the school for a while, which is why Chloe's mom returns to Paris. Play up the fact she's a fish out of water, the fact she's not used to several French customs. Use her to fill some niches not seen in the class, like being weary of Lila off the bat. And then ultimately use her as a substitute for Queen Bee while Chloe has a relapse before eventually actually getting her redemption arc. Though the latter maybe being in a longer term way, or after one of them finding out about more big term plot stuff (other than Felix) and figure out a way to help LB again. Either way, she should retire and return Pollen to Chloe. Zoe could be a candidate for end game Moth or Peacock, or more for the American Kwamiis. Or just a behind the scenes member. But she should be useful. With how she is right now, figure out a reason for her to exist after the initial fact she's a worthless Chloe replacement with no character to her.

[@MeemahSN]

Zoe’s not vanilla ice cream - she’s just a scoop of ice.

[@theta385]

Zoe just took Chloe's characters development and said "no fuck that" Queen Bee showed Chloe what it's like to be responsible for something big, be it good or bad. Usually Chloe pushes responsibility to everyone but herself. I always imagined, She could have stayed a bit posh and arrogant further into the series, but she would appreciate her life, her friends, her role as a protector of the city. And her dynamic with Pollen is so cute. Pollen is essentially a bee, and bees want queens that tell them what to do, and Chloe is perfect for that, she fits the role of a queen bee well..

[@guilhermemedeiros8826]

dude i just hate how dirty they did chloe... she was growing so much at season 2 and could really be so much interesting and cool if better handled at s3... now (s4 and s5) she's just back to her horrible s1 self again

[@Doomzdeh]

Chloe and Zoe should have been more important in the plot if the writers wanted to introduce Zoe at all. It felt like one of them was a Sentimonster because Audrey was shown looking up at the same time as Gabriel and Tomoe Tsurugi in one episode. And with Andre’s connection to Gabriel, it just seemed so likely. Why didn’t we get any insight on that? It would’ve made Zoe’s existence make so much sense, as Audrey could’ve gotten pregnant from an affair and then created Chloe to save face and pretend like her baby was Andre’s. Zoe was probably not claimed by Audrey at all, hence why Chloe would never have heard of her. In essence, Zoe would be the real child of Audrey. Chloe would be a Sentimonster. And Andre would be so lenient towards her because he didn’t want to control her like Gabriel did Adrien. And maybe that’s why Adrien was only allowed to see Chloe growing up, as they were both Sentimonsters and therefore Emilie and Gabriel felt more comfortable about it.

[@michaelreilly6874]

Zoe could have been an interesting character if she started out as a jerk like Chloe, but gradually became a better person and a worthy hero thanks to the positive influence of the main characters. But that'd never happen since Asstruc is against character development that outshines Marinette.

[@leoniemelodie7]

I totally agree with you. "Zoé" seems like the cheap version of "Chloé" with almost the same name and appearance but none of the interesting aspects. In some way she seems like she's written for babies? I wish they made her speak English or have some skills in conversation, or *something.* I wish if they introduce a character they join the class, like Lila (so there's a reason why they're always with the friend group in the first place). Rn, all the characters that aren't in their class seem like they have no other friend of their own - which is in character for Kagami and Luka (they're both mysterious and lonely) but it feels a bit pitiful for a social butterfly like Zoe. But now, I feel a bit better about Chloé turning bad again. I do realize it's a working Villain origin story and I appreciate it, but I do love a redemption, even in the futur. By creating Zoe they're establishing that Chloé will basically never get her miraculous back, never get into the Miraculous team. I really didn't like that. Zoe would be fine as she is, if she was meant to be temporary.

[@GaleGrim]

It would be an interesting writing twist, if took in a direction like what I have in mind. Zoe as the bee keeper of the miraculous is more responsible, but less competent. She respects the position and it's rules, but she lacks the instinct necessary to use it well. Where as Chloe clicks with the use of it, but is irresponsible. This might even lead to a cycle of Zoe and Chloe trading off the miraculous back and forth, people think she doesn't have it anymore, and she doesn't, it's with Zoe. But Zoe uses her as a crutch when she doesn't have the confidence to act. This starts to pull Chloe away from hawkmoth as she no longer needs him to be the hero she wants. And the things Chloe doesn't need get thrown away. I'm picturing a few moments like: A problem gets big enough to cause Zoe to doubt her self, to crumble her confidence and make her stall and putting it on, Chloe steps up in Chloe fashion "Give me that! Why are my siblings so incompetent!" snatches it from her, and just VERY quickly jumps into action and SOLVES IT. When it gets done, she hands it back, which is surprising to everyone, until Chloe looks at lady bug and GLARES "What? Keep my sisters hand me downs? No thanks, if you want a second rate bee user I'm willing to let you have one as long as things don't interrupt my me time. now bug off." Secretly tho, she saw what it did to the city, the danger, and had a low grade epiphany, if she want's to be a hero so badly, like the idol she had in LB, then she needs to star asking what a hero would do in her (highly fashionable and comfortable) shoes. This starts out superficial in this moment but grows as she grows. Eventually, a situation gets bad, and Zoe trys to hand her the miraculous as "normal", and she refuses. "You need to get your self together and get in there, you can't just pawn off the hard stuff on me, I'm not your errand girl, besides what if I'm not around? What if I'm getting my nails done? You can do this, your not THAT dumb I hope. Figure it out." This leads to Zoe become galvanized (if indignant) enough to get the job done. This harkens back to Chloe's mother, that woman expects perfection in her work and that includes the people she works with. It's what makes her and Chloe sharks in their respective environments. DRIVE. They want to be the best. No matter the cost.

[@BekatheCuteCat]

and now they making her the LMBTQ character, trying to get some love from the fans for her. its soooo pointless!!! its like astruc thinks oh the fans doesnt like zoe as much as is do? lets make her love Marinette, then they MUST love her because she is a lesbian/bi! I alr hate the episode adoration, just bc all of this, cause its the same as her debut episodes! no line, no hint that she's maybe down for Marinette, just like a lightning from a clear sky

[@nia91281]

I think Zoe might become a more important character if they include her more in the story and continue with her story with Marinette that was hinted at in some of the teasers. I don't think it will have the same importance as Chloe though.

[@alovescoffee]

She's a big reason why I won't watch the season. She just replaces Chloe as the bee miraculous holder and has no character flaws. She's just nice. That's it. It's too boring, and I don't care for her.

[@CrackCrunch]

Zoe was made specifically to ridicule Chloe and make her development pointless. Adding this extra layer to the whole bea miraculous was unnecessary, just not being the holder alone, feeling useless, and knowing she'd messed up her chance to actually be deemed worthy by her idol would have been enough. This whole extra sister thing to add "tension" or make it seem all crazy is weird, is what's her face would have never happened Chloe's conflict with the new bee miraculous holder would have been the same even if it weren't Zoe. She serves no purpose even as a Chloe evil villain plot device!

[@missrebel634]

Zoe only exists, because Astruc refused to give Chloe the redemption arc she needed.

[@marcusclark1339]

yup just a replacement cause the writer's ego to replace Chloe and bastardize her entire character cause they just refuse to admit their wrong so their replacement serves their purpose and then vanishes while they cheaply later imply unrequited love syndrome to Marinette so they can have their cake and eat it to (not commit to not get banned on certain areas in the world while getting social praise) its absurd how this character is just to serve their agenda whatever it may be in any given moment

[@theaboveaveragefangirl]

With her backstory she has the potential to be an interesting new character. Such a shame she was only used to justify Chloe becoming a villain again.

[@Angelbabes222]

She feels like that one useless OC in a fanfiction that no one asked for nor cares for

[@moon7shinev150]

I'm late but someone pointed out that Zoe could've worked if she were Chloe's older sister and would try to right Chloe's ways since Zoe knew their mom wasn't great

[@Ddeonu-Stan1245]

The difference between Chloe and Zoe is that Zoe is basic and just appeared out of no where and suddenly replaced Chloe's title as Queen Bee, her costume looks like a Wasp and wasps literally kills bees to steal their Honey, meanwhile Chloe's hairstyle as Queenbee literally looks like a Beehive and her entire outfit also reminds me of the Miraculous she holds which is the Bee Chloe was having the character development that could've made the entire show better but they just ruined that by adding the Zoe-Flop into the show and expects us to act as if she is good enough to replace the original queenbee

[@marcy2225]

literally the only reasons I feel she was made was either as an insert or just because the creator hates Chloe

[@TheCattac]

Gotta say I'm also disappointed. I got excited when she was introduced at all the potential of a new face observing what everyone just acknowledges as the usual. But she didn't even really do that. And despite me liking her (mostly because her designs are neat) I also forget that she exists when she isn't around. It's a shame but honestly not surprising.

[@hamdepaf6686]

A bit of a stupid side effect of dumping Cloe back to be a pure villain to be replaced by Zoe is that she becomes less interesting through it. Like the more complex Cloe is the more complex Zoe can be. Zoe is just so fundamentally tied to Cloes character, that their dynamic is pretty much what defines her as a character. There is so many interesting things you could have done with a slightly better Cloe that is suddenly upstaged by her sister. Like I can't understate how much both characters could have profited from this. I mean sure the show could have made due without Zoe, but I think there would have actually been some potential here if not (and I know this might be unfair, but it sure feels like it) for Thomas despising Cloe as a character.

[@lorecava3883]

I agree, Zoe is the most useless and obnoxious character in Miracolous. She appeared pretty much out of nowhere, in her debut episode she becomes friends with everyone and in the next one she gets "her kwami" ​​+ a compliment from Plagg... A character I feel without originality and flaws born only to replace a redeemed Chloe...😱 In a nutshell Zoe is a pure Mary Sue, thanks to her Plagg is starting to get obnoxious! I would completely change my mind about Zoe if she were to become a villain!

[@TheEpicgamer3535]

I think Zoe wouldve made better sense to be Chloe's cousin instead of her half sister

[@polishalastor142]

No

[@its_notmiax]

If they wanted to Introduce Zoe they should have introduced in the New York special not just a random episode

[@sonianevermind7258]

Spoilers obv Issues with zoe - Backstory was revealed to quickly like luka and get solved easily ( They could have blueprint as I mean we waited to see chloe's backstory in season 2 ) -Zoe having feelings for marinette ( this came out of nowhere and they barely interact ever since sole crusher and queen banana ) -She is just too nice -99% mary sue -introduce too early, atleast marc got introduced in season 2 and was almost like by the fans💀

[@Rightoblique]

“SHE DOESNT EVEN GO HERE” -Mean Girls

[@TwilightWolf032]

I never saw Zoe as anything other than Chloe's replacement as Queen Bee. If you were aware of Astruck's mindset around the time she was introduced in the show, you could easily see the true intentions behind her introduction from a mile away. Suddenly Chloe has this half sister nobody ever mentioned before, but the story isn't about Chloe's mother hiding a kid from her family, everybody is already in the known and accepted that she will be living with them. Only the audience needs to be introduced. Think you're gonna have a mini arc where Chloe learns about her mother having a child outside of her marriage and Chloe's father mindset when confronted with his wife's infidelity? Nope, Chloe is already planning on making Zoe into a copy of herself and the mayor is a better dad to Zoe than he's ever been to Chloe! The mother facing consequences for anything? That idea is ridiculous, utterly ridiculous! Aside from that, all we see in the episodes where Zoe is the focus is how bad of a person Chloe is and how much of a poor victim Zoe wants to be perceived as. It's never been about introducing a character, it's always been about making sure Chloe would never be seen as a hero in the eyes of the audience ever again. Simply because Astruc based Chloe in a girl he hated and he is using a cartoon as his therapy session.

[@spectre9340]

There's just something so upsetting about being so adamant about not giving a pre-existing character any development that you'd just create a completely new character to highlight how flawed the other one is. Apparently, any episode that featured Chloe's character development and possible redemption, Thomas Astruc wasn't around to interfere.

[@lasercraft32]

I just really don't like Zoe... She exists to steal Chloe's role as the Bee Miraculous, after Astruc decided to crap all over Chloe's redemption arc and make her irredeemable. She's just so dull, and on top of all of that they decided to make her a queer character just for bonus points in representation, by trying to ship her with the main character that we already know she's never going to end up with. That's just cruel to Zoe, and once again another character on the list of people fawning over Marinette randomly.

[@franciscorui]

Don't forget that time in the Ladybug Comics where they had a character called 'Ghetto Blaster'

[@kaoryakasaka6835]

Zoé could have been a good character as Chloe's sister if the writers actually put some effort in. Lets say, what if Zoé doesn't actually want to be an actress, but she convinces herself that she does as a defense mechanism to explain to herself why she has to maintain a certain persona all the time? And Chloe doesn't really want to be a designer, she just wants to get her mother's attention in any way possible. But we do see on multiple occasions that Chloe enjoys acting, and we see that Zoé likes designs/styling a lot(she even designed her kicks herself). Then maybe have Chloe be praised for a design and have Zoé get a role over Chloe. Then they will start realising that what they thought they wanted didn't make them happy, and they're actually bitter about losing to each other. This would be a reason for them to first be cold to each other but then to slowly start bonding over their struggles to know what they want. And it won't hurt to have Zoé get bored of her unrealistically nice persona, because she realises she was just playing another role to fit in, and maybe she'd even defend Chloe to the group sometimes, telling them that they're no saints either and also did their fair share of stupid stuff(especially Marinette).

[@atalawson1240]

Yeah, I like Zoe but it's really stupid of the writers to just put a new character out of nowhere instead of making their backstory about them.

[@moondanak]

I adored this show before they decided to give up on Chloe. Now I don't watch it and I'm pretty sure a lot of people too.

[@joslyntorres8691]

I'm so ready for this new episode, it seems like they are really gonna open her story more. They absolutely ruined Chloe so I hope they don't do the same to zoe.

[@trexadvent4726]

Would it have made a lot more sense to introduce Zoe as the new user of the Bee_Miraculous if Chloe left the show instead of us watching her become worse than who she was during season 1 and the season 3 finale where she makes things worse by teaming up with that lying Lila?

[@xylozxyn]

shes just... there 🧍🏻‍♀️ if they didnt ruin chloes good character arc, zoe wouldn't be here. i swear it wouldve been great if they continued chloes redemption arc, zoe is js so confusing how she just showed up, shes basically a human version if chloe had her redemption arc! (my opinion)

[@ludwigtails]

Zoe is literally just “Oh no now that Chloe is now a bad guy. Who is gonna be the queen bee now. Oh I know let’s find a heroic stereotypical American to come replace our very story filled character and have them just be good with no writing at all. They are just good chloe so everybody MUSTve liked her” Like honestly man even the design for her queen bee looks worse then Chloe’s queen bee. Sorry but chloe being queen bee is my queen bee. There is just nothing for Zoe at all. Literally just a step in for chloe (as of now) before I dunno will chloe return to being good in future seasons. Specially when she is American which ticks me off even more being the whole stereotypical good guy from the US. And I don’t hate Americans I just hate the ones that are done stereotypically.

[@yabe-kfptentacultist]

Zoe is someone whose character is pretty mishandled. If the story was reworked, she could have been at least decent but honestly the entire miraculous storyline is so patchworked that characters like her suffer.

[@zionbright471]

As much as I love Zoe, and I have a few issues with her. 1. I think she should have been introduced one to two seasons. She wasn't mentioned in prior seasons (although that would have probably been because Chloe would have considered her utterly ridiculous, but that's beside the point) 2. For me, she got the miraculous way too quickly. Like, did anybody else realize that everybody that got a miraculous had to wait 1 to 3 seasons, while she only had to wait one episode? I understand everybody getting miraculous before the season end, but you could have given it to her later during the season and gave us more of a chance to know her. 3. Zoe needs more depth to her character. The stuff that we heard from the series isn't enough for me. I want to know more about this girl 🤔 But I don't think it's very fair for people that say that this was all Zoe's fault and she stole the miraculous from Chloe. First of all, Chloe was the one that showed her identity to the world, so it was bound to happen eventually. Second of all, this wouldn't have happened if Marinette didn't fumble the bag twice. The first time when she lost the miraculous and didn't come back for it and the second time when she didn't let Chloe help with saving her parents, which caused Chloe to betray Ladybug in the first place. Besides, Zoe didn't want to use it because she knew how her sister was going to react when she had the miraculous. Zoe did nothing wrong. If anyone in the show needs to be blamed for Chloe's redemption going down a drain, it's Marinette and Astruc

[@cassiejacksondance]

I just want to call out lots of praise for the thumbnail. I love the Mean Girls quote.

[@austint4139]

Zoe is the last character introduced in the entire show with everyone else having three seasons over her of course she’s going to be much less developed

[@johanroyce6324]

Still she could have had more episodes devoted to her in Season 4

[@imanijoybassey3994]

Doesn't help that much though

[@NangelTapia-yq9zw]

Hey smarty pants is it just me or did it always feel like cat noir is a side character since season 1 like I would like to see a cat noir episode where he goes beast mode and takes a super powerful villain by himself and give him a power up like you know how they said the only thing holding a miraculous holder from there true power is them self like give him the power where he can make an object empowered with the power of destruction when he touches it or something I just want to see a cat noir episode where he goes GOD MODE fighting a villain like named wait you know what cat noir fights Cat Blanc or something I just want a episode where he is the main character no ladybug just him what do you think

[@rhishere2265]

There are people who trash talk this series especially marinette but when derision comes out, people are all like “omg poor marinette. Chloe is a monster. This explains so much”, NO IT DOESN’T!!!! It doesn’t justify her actions, hell, it doesn’t even explain her actions. Ptsd doesn’t turn people psycho. That’s an insult to people who truly struggle from PTSD. Even if Mari-Sue does have “trauma”, that’s still not her main motivation. Her main motivation is obsession and possession. If it is ptsd, avoidance and trust issues would be the explanation. I’m not a writer, but if you see movies where anxiety and ptsd is done well, you kind of get it. And you don’t ever use ptsd and anxiety as an explanation for psychotic behavior. Psychotic people, bad people, can just so happen to have ptsd. Even if people sympathize with her character, it is still irresponsible of them to cut her some slack. A criminal is a criminal. They should still slap on the handcuffs and take her straight to juvy. She needs to suffer the consequences of her crimes teenager or not. She is old enough to understand what she’s doing. They reverted Chloe's redemtion arc just so Marinnette wasn't the worst character and then deleted Chloe because they made her a second Liela, replacing her with a lesbian half sister just so someone takes the bee miraculous place. Then proceeded to make a silly PTSD flashback to excuse the creator's creepy obsessive idea of love, but it didn't help to cover up the fact Marinnette is a yandere mary sue. Trauma might explain behavior but not excuse it.

[@millicentgordon5427]

honestly i would love if Chloe and Marinette were friends from the beginning,Chloe could be that friend that has flaws and Marinette tries to help her stop being mean because as her friend she would know she is a good person whois lashing out on others,im still convinced chloe is based on someone Thomas Astruc hates in real life based on how angry he gets arguing with fans and how insistant he is that she is horrible and will never change

[@xJ4D3jadee]

I find the scrapping of Chloe's character to be so annoying. She was so close to becoming a character I actually enjoyed, which is hard to find for me. If her identity being known was that much of a problem, just pull a Rena Furtive, or a Catwalker, where she's constantly saying Queen Bee should come back to throw people off the trail, then being the alternate bee on the side. Also, Hawk Moth also knows a bunch of other peoples' identities, too, and Ladybug still gives them Miraculouses. I'm thinking particularly of Kagami, who in her Miraculous debut episode was told she wouldn't get it again because Hawk Moth knew. And then got it again.

[@jamestolbert1856]

I hated how they butchered Chloe’s redemption! What if Zoe became essential to her redemption and also give her a reason to be a hero, she has a sister to look after

[@julietedwards2768]

You are so right and I hated her even before this video Although something I hope happens that probably won’t: chloe gets the miraculous back

[@alannatherson7721]

May I question how are Zoe and Chloe the same age but somehow step-sisters? Am I the only one who gets the feeling they're actually twins but since Audrey didn't know who the father is she pawned one off on mayor spineless and another on Mr. Unknown and Irrelevant? Or am I just putting more thought into this that the show did?

[@ZoeMalDoran]

Zoe's meant to be a year younger than Chloe and the rest of the main cast

[@_MaryamTheSnek_]

Tbh, I used to love Miraculous until season 3. After season 3 was completed and season 4 came out, I started to hate everything about Miraculous. Mostly Marinette and Chloe. Shes worse than she was in season 1. Adrian and Chloe's friendship got ruined and that's the worse part

[@adamnahajowski67]

I agree that Zoe could have been written better, but despite that I realy like her and enjoy her scenes.

[@sun12146playlists]

Yeah. She's a good character . Just she needs to have better writing more of a personality and stuff

[@42ndLife]

Personally, I love Zoe, and I feel like she could have a lot more to add to the main cast dynamics if she was utilized more. But than again, this show is well known for not utilizing it's characters & concepts to the fullest. Season 1 for example was way too long and repetitive. The developments we saw with the B team heroes really should have started mid season 1. All of seasons 1 & 2 could have been a single season. That's a lot of wasted screne time before the second string miraculous became relevant. So it doesn't surprise me that Zoe goes mostly under used. That doesn't mean that she's been made completely useless in the story however, she does have some unique character dynamics in the show even if they're a little under baked. I really love her relationship with the Mayor. They both act like doormats around Chloe, but act like confidantes for each other. I believe it's significant that one of the few times we've seen the Mayor put his foot down with Chloe was in defense of Zoe. It shows that they really do have a unique dynamic that is not a budget version of the dynamic between Chloe & the Mayor. Zoe & the Mayor have a supportive relationship, whereas the relationship between Chloe & the Mayor is enabling and codependent. If it were up to me, now that Marinette is trying to move away from her feelings for Adrian I would have her explore a romantic relationship with Zoe. It would really cement Zoe as the anti-Chloe if she was revealed to be in love with Marinette. I just think that would be funny. Besides, I would like to see Marinette have more serious romantic opinions than just Adrian & Lucca. I never bought the whole Marinette & Lucca thing. Marinette to me seems like she'd gell better with someone like Zoe. Although, I could see a relationship between Lucca & Chloe being a thing. Maybe as part of some late game final redemption arc for Chloe. Lucca is the king of second chances, perhaps his laid-back non-judgmental attitude might finally melt that cold hard exterior of Chloe's. We know that her fixation with Adrian was partially fueled by the fact that he was the only boy who would put up with her. Maybe the key to getting through to Chloe is someone who can make her feel heard & accepted while still pointing out how she hurts others.

[@electrobob992]

Agreed! She probably could have worked better as a character if they actually had Chloe move away when she threatened doing that in the earlier seasons. I mean adrien was the ONLY reason she had to stay, and with him cutting his friendship with her there would be NO reason to stay. Like have her leave, then have Zoe switch places giving her time to develop properly. Heck could have had her start out JUST like Chloe if not slightly worse, only for the main group to realize it was all an act. Honestly still wish they let Chloe get redeemed instead, they could have done this during the Miraculous Queen episode, I mean Hawkmoth gave her the ability to control those with miraculous so she could have easily pulled a "Ha I tricked you! I was never on your side hawkmoth." *After taking control of Mayura* Causing him to revoke the akuma, which frees all the others too. Then end it with chloe volunteering to give up the bee, only for Ladybug to say "Actually you can hang on to it, just as long as you continue to be a hero when you don't use it and keep this a secret. Otherwise you must give it back". This then resulting in Chloe actually being a nice person as school even to Marinette. Then they could have had interesting things were Chloe supports marinette against lila being another person to see past her lies. Saying things to Marinette like "I know from experience how to manipulate people, and I can tell she is doing just that" Then maybe have Alya be more evil as time went on, believing Lila instead of marinette.

[@sun12146playlists]

She's boring and a bland character in my opinion it feels like she was thrown into the storyline just to take Chloes place and have the bee miraculous and never had character development besides standing up to Chloe and Kitty noir but she needs WAY more character development than that and more screen time and not to mention the very poor writing with her and Marinettes relationship tbh and she needs more of a backstory and personality and WAY more flaws not to mention how they just throw a lot of other characters is traits in her character which was REALLY noticeable and annoying

[@andrewshearsby8125]

Precure Franchise see's Miraculous and lols in their face

[@emiwarble]

I havent watched the show in like 3 years but my recommendeds has slowly been filling with MLB rants and I am living for it. It's the only way I know what's going on in the show anymore besides piecing together common threads in fanfiction lol

[@commandere2475]

Zoe is the type of character I don't even hate. I don't like her either. I just don't care about her at all.