400 VS 600 VS 800 GRAIN ARROW (surprising)

400 VS 600 VS 800 GRAIN ARROW (surprising).. Tim Connor compares different arrow weights alongside ‪@podiumarcher3447‬ to figure out just how well 400 grain arrows vs 600 grain arrows vs 800 grain arrows. This is a fun archery video showing how different arrows compare down range as well as an impact test. If you're into archery or bowhunting this is a good video for you. #archery
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[@TimConnor13]

Friends! This test surprised me 😬 thoughts for future vid ideas?

[@Bulletarrow93]

You should test a 300 and 350 or 375 grain arrow now and see. No body ever test the really light stuff. Great content

[@lovesvanilla666]

I want to see you compare the Garmin Xero A1i Pro vs the ultraview slider… How ultraview think they are worth half the price of the greatest and most versatile site ever made, blows my mind. Cheers ✌️

[@xcr-fg7nd]

Q and a podcast answering viewer questions

[@bobbytables4305]

It suprised me because the math side of your brain knows it's wrong. So... kzbin.info/www/bejne/n4bamGqPi7WJodUsi=6zy4XnvT1TFNtflz Timing is perfect. Looks like you need to move the jugs out past 36 yrds. Your test is flawed. Otherwise I should tune down the projectile weight on my 6.5 creedmore to a flatter 120gr. Ballistics is ballistics doesn't change if it is a rifle or a bow. Just the speed and distance change.

[@FlyingHen07]

Do the same tests but with the 400gr arrow at different draw weights, lengths, etc.

[@maxpeters6090]

It would be interesting to see a penetration test from slightly further away. Also how wind would effect a lighter arrow vs the meat missile over different distances

[@crystalhill5024]

Rite on, hca did this over 20 yrs ago where the first to coin the phrase speed kills I belive . Nice test! Run it again at 50 w field tips and then with same broadheads close like u did here and again at 50 see what you get. Great work .

[@ryans9029]

Exactly. Just like in rifle bullets.. SD retains momentum at range.. not at 2 yards.. let the arrows straighten out and retain energy down range. This stuff has been proven to many times to ignore with confirmation bias and bad science.

[@SWINGERINTO]

The way that acceleration works, as far as drop goes, is that it's an exponential growth model. That arrow is stopping at 9.8 meters per second, persecond. 1 second of arrow flight is 9.8meters of drop. 2 seconds is 19.6, 3 seconds is 29.4 meters. The longer the arrow takes to get somewhere the faster it drops. The same is true with velocity.

[@joeditz48]

Arrow is dropping* (not stopping) 🫡

[@crossroads5885]

Turns out speed does matter and you should care more about that than the chasing weight of the arrow especially if you wanna be accurate down range

[@tray22]

@@crossroads5885 Not quite. Speed does matter but you have to find a balance with speed and weight. If you go to far one way or the other your setup isn't as good as it could be. The 500-600gr seems to be where most people land and you can do that and still get a good FOC. You don't need an 800gr arrow.

[@andrevantonder8206]

The longer it take to get somewhere the FURTHER it drops, it does not drop faster. Gravitational acceleration is constant. It is the time in flight that changes how long gravitational pull can affect the arrow and thus how FAR it drops.

[@sheyanderson4371]

Always appreciate the different testing videos, never gets old seeing arrow flights, so thank you. I tried a test last year that I think would be great if done by you with the same concept here. Take 400g, 500g, and 600g setups and get sight tapes for each out to 80yds dialed in. Set up at 40yds and shoot your 20,30,50,60,70, & 80yd marks (if you have a big enough target to accommodate like MFJJ's). You can then measure the drop at each mark for that setup and do so with the other arrow setups, and compare. This will give you a truer difference in drop that you could directly apply to the pin gaps. Example, if the 400g arrow drops 10" between 50 & 60yds, and the 500g arrow drops 14", you are getting 1" and 1.4" of drop per yard. So with each setup, if you were off 5 yards on an animal, the 400g arrow would miss 5" and the 500g would miss 7" (you could then assume with your same setup that a 450g arrow would be in the middle and miss 6"). This was a great test for me to help determine my current hunting setup and even though it was more extensive, it was fun to do the test on my own setup.

[@milansekularac6196]

A better comparative test for trajectory is to sight in all 3 arrow weights, then put your sight at your average or relevant distance, say 40yrds, then step back to +/-5yrds away from that distance (35 and 45yrds) and shoot those different arrows. And then compare how much, in relative terms of shot placement with respect to the target center, you are penalized by a particular arrow weight, per equal yardage missjudgment. Because you will pay on the target for the lightest arrow as well, so to asess a heavier one, compare how much you pay more, per equal yardage misjudgment.

[@Engrave.Danger]

Yeah, that makes more sense to me as well. I shoot heavy and light arrows depending on what I'm doing and measuring the drop of an arrow that wasn't launched anywhere close to its ideal arc is gonna look way worse than misjudged yardage with a heavy arrow on a bow that's sighted in for it.

[@jakepelach6749]

I’d like to see you guys try the same kind of penetration test with different FOC arrows 7-8% up to around 20% see if there is a difference

[@lukeonderko8696]

I know higher foc has alot of advantages, but, As long as the arrow is tuned and hits perfectly square, I have no idea how different FOC would would change penetration?

[@ryans9029]

​@@lukeonderko8696that's because you don't understand how arrows penetrate. 😂

[@ryans9029]

And at 30 or 40 yards instead of 2 yards.

[@GrandValleySportingGoods]

Take a look at our penetration test with 4, 5 and 600 grain arrows with low FOC at 20, 40, 60 and 80 yards. We have another video coming up where we test the same weight but different FOC's

[@chasethewright]

This is physics… the arrows are all equally efficient projectiles so that variable is eliminated. The bow is what determines the force (newtons) applied and is the same across all three arrows so penetration will be the same. Weight will cause the projectile to be thrown faster or slower… but the force applied is equal therefore the kinetic energy for each arrow is the same.

[@tray22]

It is physics and your findings are off a bit. Don't look at them as arrows but as bullets. A light bullet in the same diameter won't penetrate as deep as a heavier bullet. Using the same powder charge the speeds will drop just like with an arrow from a bow. A varmint bullet into an elk isn't a good idea right? I wouldn't shoot a deer or an antelope with a varmint bullet and I wouldn't shoot a light fast arrow into one either.

[@jacobmattson5885]

Next step, penetration test at 40 yds and 60 yds to show how that lack of velocity translates to far less penetration at distance.

[@jesseherbert2585]

Might be other way around. Both start out with the energy of the bow, but a faster lighter arrow will loose more energy over distance due to aerodynamic drag being a function of the square of the velocity (and given same geometry a heavier arrow would loose less energy per distance even at the same speed). I really want to see this penetration test at 50 yards, but it might be a minimal effect anyhow?

[@GrandValleySportingGoods]

Take a look at our penetration test video. We did 20, 40, 60 and 80 yards. You might be interested in the results that we found!

[@Sapper_Rage]

Nice test! Can you do one with broadheads? I would use: shorter angle single bevel like ironwill, a steep angle single bevel like the grizzlystik ashby 350 is samurai, add a two blade option, mechanical options, three blade options, throw in some versions that are purchased the most at Josh shop. That would be a cool test to see. Thanks!

[@huntsimple9527]

Kinetic Energy (KE) is the energy of motion. KE = 0.5 x Mass x Velocity x Velocity. For the arrows leaving Tim's bow the following is true: Mass (grains) Velocity (fps) Kinetic Energy (leaving bow) % Different from Lowest 400 310 19,220,000 0% 600 256 19,660,800 2.3% 800 224 20,070,400 4.4% The reason they all penetrated the water jugs the exact same is because they have very little difference in energy on a percentage basis. Leaving the bow, the 800 grain arrow has only 4.4% more energy than the 400 grain arrow. In order to know retained energy from each arrow at say 40 yards, we'd need to know the velocity at that distance (come on Tim, that is your next video!). There is no way to know retained energy downrange if we don't have precise velocity measurements. Retained energy is one variable that goes into penetration, there are many others too. As you can see in the KE equation the velocity component is squared, meaning velocity typically has much more effect on KE than mass. However, in this test Tim did, the mass doubled between the lightest arrow and the heaviest one, so in this case mass was a significant factor in the calculation. Tim/MFJJ! Make a video showing the velocities downrange (you pick the range)! Who has the ball sack to shoot through that chronograph at 40, 50, or 60 yards! Ahah!

[@chadlemerande8677]

Ranch dairy did this!!! With a rocket scientist and radar.

[@ericnewman971]

Why did you not finish the equation? you used imperial weight and velocity so to calculate KE using imperial, the equation is KE=.5 x mass X velocuty^2/225218 this gives you ft-lbs the equation you gave is in metric so the answer would have been in juoles.

[@huntsimple9527]

Units are all relative (as long as used consistently) and have no significance on the goal of my calculations to find out the difference in KE between arrows on a percentage basis. The KE equation has no units as an equation, the equation I used is not metric. The units used were grains for mass and feet per second for velocity - none of them being metric. Thanks. @@ericnewman971

[@Bartimusblue27]

Now do the math for the momentum values... That will be far more telling than KE

[@huntsimple9527]

@@Bartimusblue27 Right! P=MV. Yeah, I would do them but I don't think Tim Connor or MFJJ care, they never engaged with this approach.

[@Nick__C]

Just built 406 grain arrows because of what you two have been talking about on the pod cast and these videos! Super pumped to use them in the field!

[@ryans9029]

Sorry about your confirmation bias. 😢 🤣

[@svwallen]

Great test guys. I’m guessing the biggest contributor to the various arrow weights having a similar penetration will be that the resistance/friction between the plastic bottles and the arrow shaft remains the same for all arrows. Some interesting variations on the water bottle test would be; 1/ Taking a chrono speed after the various arrows have passed through 1-2 bottles of water, although I think the speed ratios will be very close to the original chrono test due to the same amount of resistance being exerted on the same diameter shafts. 2/ Same weight arrows but with a variation in shaft diameter. This would vary the surface area and therefore the amount of shaft resistance/friction against the water bottles. 3/ I think a big contributor to a variation in penetration in a test like yours will be from different surface textures of the arrow shaft materials, silky smooth aluminum or carbon, through to something like an old school/cheap woven fiberglass shaft 4/ Another variable to keep in mind with the water bottle test/penetration, is if the fletchings are actually passing through the cuts made by the broadhead, or are the fletchings having to make their own way through the plastic bottles. Great work guys. Always interesting to watch. Cheers Peter👍👍

[@MatthewBrown-sc5sj]

Would definitely like to see a 600gr and 800gr arrow tested that have higher FOC vs total arrow weight. Might see some changes in arrow efficiency and penetration.

[@jameshall9505]

Bet not much

[@eclipsearchery9387]

Wrong - no difference at all. High FOC is a crock of shit...

[@sinepari9160]

@@eclipsearchery9387 I'm beginning to think that as well...

[@connor_bohnts]

I am shooting a 440 grain arrow. 78 pounds and 27.5 inch draw length. it clocked in at about 295 fps. Broadhead flight was perfect. My pins are so tight at 40 yards if I am off by 7 yards I am still in the kill zone. forgiveness is accurate

[@joeditz48]

That's a GREAT way to say it! FORGIVENESS IS ACCURATE!!!

[@Angel.Custodio]

I’m they same draw, what bow gets you that speed?

[@connor_bohnts]

@@Angel.Custodio mathews vertix

[@paulkysar6207]

I am in the same camp. V3X @70# shooting 460 grain arrow 298 fps. Why people make it harder than it needs to be is beyond me. Tight pins flat flying arrows eliminate minor distance errors.

[@Logan-zz5vg]

Mathews halon6 31.5" draw 70lbs shooting 460gr at 302fps out of a 8 year old bow god, I love having long draw length.

[@shaylink]

Very interesting. My arrows are at 444. I think the faster lighter arrow makes more sense in a hunting application. Smaller gap between pins means if your off by a couple yards the shot will be closer to the intended point of impact. If your arrow is dropping like a rock it could mean missing the animal all together or a wounded animal rather than meat in the freezer.

[@TimConnor13]

Yeah flatter trajectory is forgiveness

[@bigz5262]

It depends on what you’re hunting

[@tray22]

I went middle ground just over 500gr but high foc. The KE carries further with a heavier arrow and with higher FOC it is more stable and blows through bone better. I am totally done with mechanical heads after several that turned into field tips hitting ribs or the scapula.

[@brianmalick2946]

If you dont shoot over 20-30 yards it doesn't matter. It only matters the farther the shot. The key is to find balance speed, kinetic energy, foc. And the most important is practice.

[@chrismuhlbeier6948]

This is a fallacy. I put this together not long ago as an example of my setup if I were to go to a 650 grain arrow. Some online characters minimize it - but this is actual data calibrated from Archers Advantage and my chrono. If I were to shoot a 650 grain arrow at 30 yds and it actually is 35 yds I would hit 1.5" low. Over an entire big cut broadhead low/high!! If whitetail vitals are say 10" (which less on smaller bodied & shrinks quartering shots) you have given up 15% precision to your intended shot location just in range error alone. Compound that with any other errors in your shot and it's easily much more than that. Let's say you're average broadhead group size in the backyard at 30 yds is 3". Pretty decent and probably above average based on what I see. Now what is your broadhead group size in hunting conditions? Let's be generous and say it opens up only .5" to a 3.5" group at 30yd from a tree stand. That means that off the top you actually have a window of 6.5" you've got to get that arrow in (10"-3.5" = 6.5"). So you're actual precision you've reduced your odds of hitting vitals in elevation a whopping 23% from the 294 fps setup. This doesn't even touch the subject of giving the animal more time to react. The question people need to be asking themselves is: Am I concerned about penetration so much that I'm willing to give up as much as 23% of vertical precision? Be honest with yourself.. How well can you range? If you're hunting fixed ranges at feeders this effect is minimal. If you're a whitetail hunter who is pre-ranging when you get in a tree because those deer pop out quick and don't give the opportunity, then this is applicable to you. If you're doing the same when that bull is coming in and you have to draw before he pops into that opening you pre-ranged then this matters to you. Make your decisions wisely & consider picking your broadhead based on your penetration needs but not your arrow weight.

[@brianmalick2946]

@@chrismuhlbeier6948 blaaaa blaaaa blaaaaa... That's why I said the most important thing is practice. 🤯

[@WMBCS]

@@chrismuhlbeier6948preach

[@fasmola]

@@chrismuhlbeier6948 You’re make a lot of false assumptions is your comment. If you have a 3.5 inch group, it’s not a line straight up and down. You aren’t accounting for any side-to-side movement. You’re also equating a bad shot as function of distance, which isn’t true at all. Additionally, if a hunter misjudges a distance by 5 yards and the arrow drops 1.5 inches at 30 yards, but his arrow shoots high (in his range of error), it’s a “perfect shot. Not all misjudged distance equates to misses. In my experience, and anecdotally from watching too much KZbin, bad shots tend to be left and right errors. Too far back (gut) or shoulder hit (humorous, shoulder blade). In both instances, I would want something that is going to absolutely destroy what it hits. Always avoiding the gut means you have to shoot towards the shoulder. A 650 arrow will breakthrough a humorous and keep going. I’m also not going to shoot past 40 yards. I’m not reliable past that AND too much can happen before the arrow arrives. If we go with shots past 40 yards because a lighter arrow will get there sooner, it also loses velocity as it travels that distance. What’s the momentum at 60 yards of a lighter arrow? Penetration matter becomes a higher priority at distance than accuracy due to a lack of mass. Finally, a bull elk popping up is typically under 20 yards in heavy growth. They are also walking toward the hunter. A quartering to shot shows a heavily protected vital area. A 420 grain arrow isn’t going to penetrate enough to recover the elk. Although it will probably die, I don’t hunt to feed the bears, coyotes and wolves. No one has to shoot a heavy arrow. There are swaths of larger animals killed by light set ups. In my experience, as an average to below average archer, I want to be able to recover my game even when I choke.

[@masonpierce4424]

Even though the heavy arrow dropped drastically more the momentum maintains better down range. A lighter arrow is greater affected by drag thus slowing down the momentum greater than the 800 grain arrow. At the end of the day, shoot what you're comfortable with. I personally shoot around 600 grains with 300 grains being in the front with 21% foc and I'm happy with that.

[@davidmayers1645]

The increased drop on the 800 vs. the 600 is that gravity has a constant acceleration, not velocity. 32 ft/sec^2. More time to target at the same distance creates an exponential impact from gravity making it fall faster at the end of the flight.

[@danwattsmessick]

Part 2; same arrows shot at 20 and 40 yards. See if the momentum and KE actually make a difference over time/distance.

[@theamericansavage]

This right here... the 400gr. arrow will win. Already seen thus test performed twice. 400 grain arrow won each time in ballistic gel.

[@sd91499]

Which arrow is going faster at 40 yards? The lighter arrow. Despite it perhaps losing energy more quickly, it is still traveling faster at the point of impact. That means the results would be the same. It would just be like shooting the same arrows out of a lighter poundage bow at the same distance.

[@ryans9029]

​@@sd91499​​you are confused 🤣 The lighter arrows doesn't win. And of course its velocity will be higher... Heavier arrow will lose less of it's initial velocity. Retaining more momentum.

[@andrevantonder8206]

@@ryans9029 you are not allowed to talk momentum ... you confuse the KE crowd 😆

[@fasmola]

@@sd91499Velocity ALWAYS decreases. Higher velocity creates more drag. Mass never changes.

[@theamericansavage]

Love seeing the 400 gr. Arrow get the recognition it deserves. Shot a cow elk quartering toward me at 80 yards with a 425 axis and grim reaper razortip... arrow came out her off side back ham. Hoyt vtm 31, 30" draw 68 pounds.

[@officerfoxtrot3633]

There’s a lot wrong with this statement. First, if the animal was quartering (a 45* angle towards you) a shot ending in the back jam without deflection would be an entry behind the front shoulder. That’s liver/gut only. If the animal was hard quartering or frontal, that’s one/two ribs on facing side only max and just a lot of tissue. Either way, a quartering to or hard quartering to/frontal on an elk at 80 yards is not a very ethical shot. Clearly it worked out but odds are much greater it wouldn’t than it actually working out. While I’m a heavy arrow/high FOC guy and I even shoot 90#’s, I’m not even arguing about the setup in your anecdotal example. I wouldn’t recommend that long of a shot with such a high risk with any setup unless the animal was previously wounded

[@theamericansavage]

@officerfoxtrot3633 lol... it went through the front shoulder blade... then continued its DIAGONAL trajectory into her back ham. She didn't go 40 yards. It's not an ethical shot .. only if your an internet troll that isn't good enough to make a shot like that. Clearly you can't. Just another day's work for us real hunters that tagged out.

[@RobertFreeman-gx7lb]

Why? Don't ever do that again

[@Vintage-406]

He’s gonna do the same shot next year and be up for nights wondering why it didn’t kill the animal

[@officerfoxtrot3633]

@@theamericansavage I’m confused. Quartering to shot is a 45 degree angle facing you. If the exit is in the back ham, the entry cannot be in the front shoulder at that angle. It would be further back. If the entry was in fact in the front shoulder, and the exit was in the back ham, the angle would be greater than 45 degrees and nearly a fully frontal shot. That would mean the “quartering to” description was not accurate. If the description was accurate, your entry/exit cannot be accurate. It’s a simple angle calculation. A diagonal at 45 degrees ending in the back ham would have to be further back on the animal than the front shoulder. To hit the front shoulder and back ham the angle would be greater than 45 degrees. In regards to your comment about my ability I have this to say. Lol. I have not shot an animal past 56 yards. Because I believe it’s not ethical past 60. I can and have shoot foam and paper consistently out to 120. While I may not be a tourney archer, I’m definitely more invested money and time wise than the average archer, and my skills represent that. So when you say you’re a “real hunter who tagged out” it really tells me what I need to know. Cause only an internet troll who couldn’t make an 80 yard frontal on an elk with a light arrow getting extreme penetration would believe that an arrow commonly seen on hundreds of hunting channels failing to penetrate more than 15 inches into a whitetail is either a miracle or not true. Next time you’re scratching your head wondering why your cheap 100 grain replaceable head and 400 grain light gpi arrow didn’t get the pass thru you expected, maybe considering not being so close minded and take another’s perspective into account. 👍🏻

[@jimputnam7539]

Dude that was very interesting, as soon as Josh said you will be surprised I knew I was going to be surprised!! Keep the cool videos rolling!

[@rbjfarmer]

Ok so here’s the way I see it so different weights at that close range isn’t going to change much between the arrows your bow puts the same energy into the arrows your kinetic output will be basically the same as it leaves the bow. I haven’t done the math yet but basically if you put a higher weight arrow In yes the velocity will slow down but the k.e will stay the same at the point of release . A better test would be at distance when the different weights on the arrows would bleed off speed and change the energy output of the arrow I bet you will find on that different weights would penetrate better or worse at certain distances. example a lighter arrow will penetrate better at way longer distance that say a heavier arrow would not even reach. each different weight would have a sweet spot the test is to find it and use the best at the distance you tend to hunt in.

[@N8Stein]

I know this was forever ago, but I forgot about it so I watched it again. Why didn't you guys show the numbers here, or did you show them somewhere else?

[@willyboys24]

Informative testing. I wonder what happens if you go lighter than the 400 grain. Faster speeds would tighten the sight pin spread which is a good thing but is there a point where the benefits of faster lighter arrows gives out to lower penetration and/or poor stability in windy conditions?

[@singlestringstruggler1988]

“Shoot the heaviest arrow possible that has a trajectory that you still find acceptable”

[@02LM7]

Interesting video guys. So maybe broadhead selection has more effect on penetration than arrow weight?

[@darrind8697]

You lads should consider doing a test on different FOC arrows ie 8 % vs 10 % vs 14 etc

[@stevemotter8575]

Would love yo see this as well, but keep the arrow weight the same just change foc

[@andrevantonder8206]

As per Dr Ashby's studies, FOC is one of the last factors that has an impact on BONE PENETRATION or bone breaking ability. High FOC on arrows weighing less than 650gr has no significant impact on penetration and, depending on total arrow weight, not more than 50% impact on thick bone penetration. First tune your bow/arrow setup perfectly with each other and only then worry about things like FOC.

[@andyhatten9866]

Very interesting video. Did you use the same arrow for all of the different broad heads? (Same Spine)

[@theruggedarts2751]

Yeah, this is good I like it. I think if you were going to add to it, I would try to shoot through a chronograph at 40 yards or 60 and see what the speed loss looks like at that distance. It would give you a good representation of what the light hero is able to retain from a kinetic energy standpoint at that distance in comparison to 600 and 800 grain arrows.

[@chrismuhlbeier6948]

Just need a radar. This test is out there online - it's not that significant.

[@HuntFishShootChannel]

That’s irrelevant. The drop on an 800 grain arrow is so significant that no sane person should ever think that shooting an 800 grain arrow is a good idea

[@michaelpoplawski3246]

The water jug results surprised me, but after thinking about it and realizing how close you were to the jugs I think that if you measured your KE at that range it would be fairly even between the 3 arrows. Still a good test. The advantage of the heavier arrow is breaking bone and holding momentum over distance. I also believe that uniform mediums like water and gel also favor lighter arrows.

[@bigz5262]

Your bow has a set amount of stored or potential energy, putting that same amount of energy into each arrow. Meaning at launch all three arrows will have about the same amount of energy. The lighter arrows will slow down faster though

[@miltonreeths522]

@@bigz5262 If the lite arrows are slowing down faster why do they drop less?

[@bigz5262]

@@miltonreeths522 that’s a fair question, I’m not a scientist so if I get the terminology wrong I apologize. Arrows aren’t dropping because they’re slowing down, they’re dropping due to gravity. Flight time has a lot to do with it, the heavier arrow takes longer to get there so gravity has more of an affect. Imagine you just dropped both arrows, they would probably hit the ground at the same time, depending on how high you were. The same thing happens but the arrow is moving forward too. If you launched them both perfectly level then they’d hit the ground in about the same time but the faster arrow would have traveled farther just because of its speed The faster something is moving the more drag it has on it, think of taking your foot off the gas in your at 30 mph and then at like 60. Which speed do you notice the drag more? The hunting public has a really interesting video on how much velocity is lost on 6 different arrows out to 60 yards. It’s pretty interesting. Search THP lab radar and you’ll probably find it

[@miltonreeths522]

@@bigz5262 I was just messing with you. Objects of the same size and shape but different weight, the heavier object will hit the ground faster combined with the slower arrow speed gives it the double wamby for drop. I gave the RF a challenge to shoot a 3d unknown yardage course with 600 grain arrows ,then shoot the same course with 450 grain arrows and see what scores better. Yea I watched the video which didn't prove much. Arrow drop and the time it takes to get to the target is more important. I don't watch much of the THP since they started sniffing the RF dust. They want to break bone, I want to cut a BIG hole in the soft stuff.

[@bigz5262]

@@miltonreeths522 it didn’t prove much except that the heavier arrow has more momentum at 60 yards than the light arrow at launch. They don’t plan on hitting bone but the way they hunt, having to take a lot of quarter-to shots, it’s going to happen. None of their shots are past 30 yards and the trajectory difference between a 425 grain arrow and 550 (which is what they recommend) at that range is minimal. Personally I think people bicker way too much about arrow mass instead of worrying about tuning their bows or sharpening their broadheads or working on their shot

[@michaelbushey2787]

It all depends on what you shoot for broadheads and where you hit on the animal. Water isnt exactly the best way to judge penetration.

[@TimConnor13]

What’s a better controlled test?

[@aaronmcwilliams7014]

Comparable penetration over a constant medium no matter what it is wouldn’t matter. The test was comparable.

[@JamesBond-oc4gm]

​@@TimConnor13mfjj has long legs, you could easily fit half a dozen in one leg 🤣🤣🤪🤪

[@chriscampbell2849]

the only real test that matters is what do these arrows do when used on hide, meat, and bone. Therefore, the best way to accurately test the arrows is to get some scapula, deer/elk hides, and some meat(boneless cuts of cheap meat). Then test these arrows with a fixed blade broadhead at a distance somewhere around 20-30yds since the drop is so bad on the 800gr arrow. In order to put an arrow through the vitals of an animal means that you have to get through the hide, meat, and most likely bone(i.e. ribs and/or a scapula). Killing animals is the only reason this topic matters, so why not use animal parts as a true test medium.

[@BukTeef7]

Cool test. Would be interesting to see extreme high foc vs low in penetration test. Thanks for sharing!

[@derricknalley3053]

Would you have the same outcome do you think, if you had sharp broadheads on those three arrows?

[@scottsellars6708]

⁠​​⁠@TimConnor13 - Shoot the different arrow weights at distance not so close something like 60 yards and see the penetration changes. Besides that great video as always.

[@terryd8692]

I'd like to see how much an arrow slows down due to drag. I've never seen anyone shoot an arrow through a chrono other than at 1-2 yards

[@austinparrott3892]

The Hunting Public has a video I believe where they use a radar chronograph to show the speed loss of different arrows at range

[@guytraviswillis3674]

The sweatshirt mfjj got rockin is clean. Is that sand color going to be available sometime soon on the website?

[@kurtmcclelland8731]

Love the tests, I would like to see the water test without vanes as most of the drag comes from them vs the containers.

[@johngordey8812]

I agree, no vanes next time.

[@chengsterboi07]

I like my arrows to be around mid 400s. Both arrow setup i have around 437-477. Axis are 477 and rip tkos are 437.

[@TimConnor13]

Seems to be a sweet spot

[@MidwestBowAndArrow]

well that's cool and all but how much quieter is the bow with the 800gr arrow?????? 🤣 maybe a next video idea? what does a mic placed at the target pick up at 20-30-40 yards with a 400 vs 600 vs 800 gr arrow? in the meantime i'm sticking to my 425-440gr arrows!

[@marcuswhitney6560]

Seeing Josh ride around with his feet down is hilarious

[@joelmaxfield9703]

Great job showing this guys!! That is exactly what should happen as all the different weight arrows are shot from the same bow and have very close to the same Ke. The bows efficiency isn’t increasing much due to the initial efficiency of the bow with even the 400gr. Good work! Thank you!

[@ryans9029]

Just like with rifle bullets, the gains are seen down range. Not at the muzzle.. or point blank. Light arrows shed energy and momentum, heavy arrows carry it further.. just like high SD bullets.. You can also compare low SD bullets to high SD bullets at short range, and the low SD bullets will perform very similarly... But get out to "rifle range" and the gains are seen in the high SD bullets. Because it carries momentum and sheds velocity much less. 👍 Shooting the arrows at 2 yards was the mistake. This stuff has been proven in giant carcasses in Africa too many times to deny. Heavy arrows penetrate animals deeper. It's simply fact.

[@ryans9029]

And the bow efficiency is a different animal. Heavy arrows are able to absorb more energy transfer, regardless of bow efficiency.. this is why heavier arrows are quieter.. This stuff isn't magic. And exactly why views will never gain much more IBOfps.. they are about maxed out in mechanical efficiency.

[@ZimFarm24]

Theory on heavier arrows is that at a distance, their momentum number would be higher than a lighter arrow at launch. Testing with any material like water, gel at point blank will not show the difference. Test at 30-40y, I believe at that point you will see a penetration difference

[@rubbaslippaz]

I'd like to see you shoot ballistic gel with the same arrows at 40yds. I'm wondering if it there are penetration losses after some distance. I know my heavier arrows move my small block target significantly more than my lighter ones.

[@Fordamericanboy1]

Loved everything but the penetration test. The kinetic energy that close is very much the same. Do 20-30 yard test also"hunting distances" not point blank and make sure Josh is around for that one

[@joekrambeer8486]

When you are talking a 400 grain arrow or a 425 grain arrow etc.... Are you including the broadhead in that weight??

[@TimConnor13]

yes, total arrow weight

[@woodypaul_]

you should make 3 huge blocks of ballistics gel and set it out to 40 yards and dump those arrows into it and see if the energy output is the same. I have no dog in the fight, but would love to see how that energy is distributed at range since we can see clearly that it's distributed evenly this close up.

[@catlinlowes3312]

Just out of curiosity, did you shoot all 3 through paper to make sure they were flying straight?

[@hi.bradder7929]

what was the FOC on these arrows? Not sure it was mentioned (I'll watch again)....or does it not matter when it comes to penetration?

[@chrismuhlbeier6948]

It's not significant - get your arrows anywhere from 12-17% and stop thinking about it. The biggest benefit from FOC is if you can use it to weaken a stiffer spine arrow. Allowing you to shoot a stiffer arrow than a super low FOC arrow. Which would help with penetration some. Once you past that one spine stiffness up by using say 150-175 total up front - you're not gaining much of anything.

[@vancejohnson1778]

Aha awesome stuff guys, shot my elk yesterday with a 420 grain arrow, 40 yard shot full pass through not sure why u would need heavier lol

[@TimConnor13]

Yeah I get a lot of these reports! Nice job dude

[@dsmt8703]

@@TimConnor13yes at distance with a bricklayer wall of water jugs to account for the arc. Not enough speed loss right out of the bow maybe to make a difference. Fun shooting.

[@gmatthewpaul]

What broadhead Vance? I shoot 420 grain and live in North Carolina and hunt Ohio! I’m a mechanical guy and trying to figure out broadhead for elk hunt in sept.

[@johnnewcomb5162]

MfJJ titanium 50 grain, with a 15 grain weight. Victory Vap SS arrows 300 spine Lighted nocks 461 grains 29/70 Perfect arrow. Great videos! Keep them coming.

[@luckrols]

The question is: how much of the variation in penetration can you explain by variation of one of other parameters. Here I see a little variation in KE (about 3%: from light to heavy: 116 J, 118 J, 120 J) and about 30% in variation of momentum (2.5, 3, 3.5)... So we have little variation in KE (that is logic, 3% shows that he is shooting a high quality bow) and a huge variation in momentum. We have a little variation in penetration and the observations suggest that the heavier arrows would go a very little bit further. So for this setup (and only for this setup: plastic bottle and water) the penetration seems to be a function of KE and not of momentum. We cannot extrapolate this experiment to hunting and shooting on a live animal. A bow is basically a constant kinetic energy output machine (give or take a few percent). There was a field point here and this tears the plastic, it doesn't cut it. So suggestion for next experiments: use a fixed cut on contact broadhead, remove the fletching (in essence: only change one variable at a time), use the same spine arrow (some energy is lost in more bending), do repeated measure for weight and speed (at least 3) and repeated tests.

[@ExperiencedNovice2024]

Did you paper tune each arrow weight to your bow? The arrows may not be flying equally straight. Arrow wobble or lean would affect the penetration.

[@nevereverbeendonebefore]

A big driver of arrow weight is trying to get high FOC arrows. How important is FOC really and at what point do we get diminishing results? Putting lots of weight up front often bumps you up in the spine chart which means using a higher GPI arrow.

[@leroyleadfoot]

How about add something like 1/8 inch paneling pieces between the water jugs to replicate bone. Could do absolutely the same thing but it could change the results. would love to know.

[@sagrieff]

a certain fisherman in texas will say that you tested this all wrong that he and his friend the aerospace engineer are the only ones that can make this kind of test correctly. While I am not convinced shooting field points into milk jugs is the definitive test it raises some questions about the difference in kinetic energy and momentum, for instance 792.7 grain at 224 fps, is 78.7 slugs and 88.2 joules while the 599.7 grain at 256 fps is 68.1 slugs and 87.1 joules and the 400.6 gain at 310 fps is 55.0 slugs and 85.3 joules. This test would indicate that the difference in 78.7 slugs and 55.0 slugs is less of a difference than the difference in 88.2 joules and 85.3 joules. while I am not one of those guys who thinks that shooting the heaviest arrow that you can build is the way to go, I did thing that shooting an arrow with a weight that gives the best performance while still considering the amount of kinetic energy and momentum I can manage while still maintain the desired performance. Good food for thought.

[@timcorwin6126]

Just out of curiosity what was the FOC for each arrow? I know Ashby ranks high FOC within the top 5 for factors In penetration. Perhaps another idea for a video would be similar arrow weights at different levels of FOC

[@DialedinHunter]

Yes, yes, YES! Loved this one. Accuracy and consistency over everything in my opinion.

[@TimConnor13]

my dude!

[@thenameiwantedwastaken]

Back in the day, I remember seeing the old timers make "Buffalo Arrows" by taking a 2116 Alloy and hammering it down the centre of a 2319 Alloy before throwing 300gr broadheads on the front I swear, the arrows must've weighed 1300gr and they looked like they fell out of the bow

[@bowbender5095]

I wonder what the Ranch Fairy would have to say about this?

[@chrismuhlbeier6948]

The guy is a snake oil salesman. He'd completely ignore any benefits of trajectory, talk crap about the findings, use his annoying laugh to distract people & use some limited science that agrees with his conclusion while ignoring any other science that contradicts him.

[@austinhall5933]

​@chrismuhlbeier6948 what a perfect summary

[@perry296]

​@@chrismuhlbeier6948 yet he doesn't have to worry about hitting a deer scapula and the arrow getting two inches of penetration 🤔

[@wrmartin73]

He would say it’s an inaccurate test that was worked in reverse. They had their result before they ever started so their test was designed to prove their result rather than be an actual legitimate test. Anyone that’s ever hunted knows that penetration test was a joke. A quick KZbin search will show various amounts of penetration on game animals and this test supposedly tells you everything penetrates the same.

[@wrmartin73]

@@chrismuhlbeier6948 please elaborate on exactly where he’s wrong? You may decide going with a heavier arrow isn’t for you but he’s factually and scientifically correct and there is no arguing that. The debate comes in about what trade offs one should take in their setup because every setup has some.

[@joebu03]

Shot elk this year at 44 yards quartering with 415 total with complete pass through of opposite shoulder. I look at at it just like shooting a rifle, the flatter the trajectory the better if you’re off on the yardage, so any slight miscalculation isn’t a total miss. Shot 400-420 standard diameter arrows with sharp fixed broadheads for years with zero issues 🤷‍♂️

[@bbmas1930]

oh and another one ..... High FOC vs normal FOC for a fixed total arrow weight. Pick one, say 500gr at 18% vs 9%. Shoot at a hunting distance like 40y through a leather/mdf/low density foam target. I've always wondered if once the broadhead makes initial hard impact, does the weight of the arrow sitting behind the broadhead 'take over' RE momentum or does the broadhead behave like the rest of the arrow isn't even there.

[@jasonbradshaw2883]

Awesome video. According to victory archery kinetic energy calculator. The KE goes up slightly with heavier arrows. The 400 grain is 85 ft/lbs. 600 grain 87 ft/lbs. And 800 grain 88 ft/lbs. Pretty interesting that the penetration was basically the same. I'd love to see the trajectory comparison of all arrows impacting the same spot at 50 yards or further.

[@ryanm.9197]

You are shooting through water at a relatively close distance, of course penetration will be the same. Water just isn't a good scientific benchmark for judging penetration and your ke for the three arrows are basically the same. If you want to test a hunting arrow's penetration for the idea of hunting, you should be shooting through a carcass with your broadhead of choice and do it at a couple of different distances. Shooting at concrete blocks, water jugs, ballistic gelatin, or plywood only shows you what an arrow does to those mediums at the distance you are shooting at. Making the assumption that the same results will correlate to penetration on an animal out at yardage is incorrect.

[@BenGaming8]

What if you shot the arrows without the veins on? I would think that is causing the most resistance. (Even though you would never do that in a hunting scenario) The other option being to do the penetration test with a broadhead.

[@stephenferguson6363]

I never really liked the fmj arrows I'm sitting at 650 grains but using a easton axis 5mm 200 spine with 75 grain brass insert and 200 grain single bevel with lighted nock im 660. And both are 260-263 fps floats right in there 81# hoyt vtm 31 28" draw

[@rizzodrat3076]

A couple more beers and you can over-complicate this even more.

[@YoureSoVane]

Try a really tough medium. A couple of stacked boards of MDF and see which penetrates further? Honestly the water jugs surprised me but I'm noticing this trend in my data as well. Total surface area seems to be the factor of drag.

[@danny_the_K]

I think they used heavy water for this test 😂

[@jhuntnfish6872]

Ok liked the tests. Now if you can do more can you do penatration at 20yd and 40yd? The ke is almost the same across the board at 8yd momentum and speed loss over distance may show a difference. Just a thought though.

[@HywelOwen]

Kinetic energy, gentlemen

[@ryanrosser8520]

I hunt in heavy brush for whitetail so I need something with a flat trajectory. I was using 450gr arrows and switched to a 372gr arrow, and what I noticed was the 450gr arrow went halfway through my target at 50 yards, and the 372gr went all the way through. My guess is the smaller arrow has a higher bc and is retaining more energy at range and has less friction through the target.

[@jeffer321]

Did you try broadheads vs field points? cut on contact vs expandable.

[@ericgrant8783]

It all depends on how the arrow was built. Try using weight forward versus arrow shaft weight. If you load the front of the arrow, you will maintain momentum. Therefore, you will have less drop food for thought.

[@Outdoorbowhunter]

I always shoot 450 gr for everything. Change my mind!

[@rickyanke9407]

This same type of test was being done back when bows were reaching 250 fps, then an unheard of 275, and the unthinkable 300fps. Over and over the lighter arrow had better accuracy, smaller height variance, and as good or better penetration. So yeah, a test repeated that shows the same results is valid.

[@garyr.4626]

What I would like to see is a controlled test on wind deflection for different diameter arrows, and perhaps penetration. I shot standards for years, went to the smaller diameters, now I’m back to standards. I never noticed a difference, so stopped spending the extra money. Victory VF TKO in my opinion is the the best value. 60 grain SS insert, 100 grain Magnus black hornet total arrow wieght 465, full pass throughs

[@SteepKuntryOutdoors]

I wonder if doing this test with the same broad head on all three arrows would make a difference? I wonder if by making the the “wound channel” it would allow the arrows to sink deeper? I am not sure if because it is field points the arrows are all getting “squeezed” around the shaft and then stopping. Mad science going on here!

[@aznkid248]

I would love to see the other end of the spectrum where shooting under 400 grains. Like 350 or 325 and if possible lower than that. What about no fletchings?

[@JamesVanGriff]

Just changed my setup from 430 grain to 340 grains... by going from 64lb to 68lb draw with nearly 100 gr lighter, i kept my kinetic energy and cut my pin gap by 45%. 30-50 yd pins are on top and bottom of my deer target. So very forgiving now versus my old arrows.

[@velasquez8]

Yea good suggestion. Would be good to see. With Tim's setup they can't shoot any lighter than 350 gr. But would be good to see at 350

[@GrantBontrager]

I run 426 grain arrows so im on the lower end but i would be curious to know what these arrows would do deferent deviation wise after hitting something hard but i know theres not really a way to check that.

[@davidcawlfield6699]

Here are observations from someone with some engineering knowledge: All three arrows had similar kinetic energy 400 got 85 ft-lb, 600 got 87 ft-lb, and 800 got 88.5 ft-lb. The bow delivers it's draw energy into a heavier arrow with slightly greater efficiency, but it's not enough to change the penetration that much. Penetration is a function of kinetic energy and the arrow shape. I think smaller diameter shafts do penetrate deeper with field points, and different hunting points penetrate differently. With recurve bows, much more of the draw energy goes into limb motion and is lost when the arrow is lighter, you might try this test again with a recurve.

[@dragonsage6909]

I'm a bit surprised.. but it makes sense, fun episode! Thx

[@nickporter9976]

I would like to see the same thing but with broadheads. All the same brand and model just different weights. I have to say I am with Josh if the broadhead doesn't give you anything more in penetration. Additionally, I think the penetration test with layered cardboard would be interesting. Shoot all 3 weights and see how many layers it goes through with broadheads. I really feel like since we all hunt with broadheads, that is the real test. Good stuff Tim thanks for the content.

[@TimConnor13]

Thanks dude

[@jons7e]

I don't know how anyone can make an argument for an 800g arrow in North America with how limiting that is to range, and 600g is just overkill. I'm digging this content testing stuff

[@AlexTroska]

I like the argument the heavy arrow community uses when they say "the target defines the test" If you shot all three arrows into a brick wall they would all barely penetrate. We don't really see that on animals. You wouldn't shoot a Cape buffalo with a 400 grain arrow. If you think about it from a penetration standpoint those results would indicate you could. Just food for thought. I'm totally game for whatever anyone wants to shoot as long as their broached is sharp as hell.

[@nicholassavana3385]

I figured up the kinetic energy of all the arrows so the 400 grain arrow at 310fps has 115.70 pounds of kinetic energy, the 600 grain arrow at 256fps has 118.35 pounds of kinetic energy, and the 800 grain arrow at 224fps has 120.82 pounds of kinetic energy. It's not even worth an extra 5lbs of kinetic energy unless you are making a 70 yard shot on a big animal then it might make a difference but other then that there is no need for all that extra weight when faster arrow makes just as much kinetic energy

[@MossyOakFreak]

What people don't understand is a compound bow is a KE machine. It dumps 85ftlbs of KE into every single arrow equally. There is a very very small margin number change for cam efficiency with different arrow weights but it's like 2-4ftlbs. Every compound bow super light arrow or super heavy arrow implants the same amount of KE into the arrow every time.

[@emrobi1962]

Right. So then the question becomes how much energy is lost while the arrow is traveling to the target. Which means a well-tuned bow and arrow combination is very important as is reducing air resistance. All to minimize energy loss during arrow travel.

[@MossyOakFreak]

@@emrobi1962 if your setup is shooting over 40KE you don't need to worry about it. Most archery shots are 40 yards and in. The difference between evergy at 30y and energy loss at 50y really doesn't matter. You lose what, 8ft of KE? You're still left with 68KE? Dude. My fiance kills deer from every shot angle with a 38lb bow at 26" draw. She has not had a single animal without a passthrough out to 40yards. Guys over here pulling 70+ pounds worrying about KE at a distance they will never shoot if it has enough energy. It makes no sense. Don't pick that hill to die on.

[@MossyOakFreak]

@@emrobi1962 MFJJ just killed a pronghorn at 90+ yards with a RIP XV and a expandable broadhead. I can promise you his arrow didn't weigh more than 400gr. 90 yards downrange that super light arrow with a big broadhead still opened both sides of that goat up. At 90+ yards. Do you think MFJJ cared about his energy loss at that distance? No. Neither should your average deer hunter shooting out to 40 yards with a bow drawing 50lbs or more. Pick a good arrow. Pick a strong insert system and a good quality broadhead. That's it. And practice like a mad man. That's more important than calculating your 7-9ftke loss at a certain distance.

[@papaschuette]

Very interesting. I've settled on a 469gr arrow setup this year. No deer on the ground yet, so I can't tell if it works or not.

[@Limfeather1]

The penetration test dose not add up to the kentic energy calculations. That makes me think there is an issue with the penetration test media. I would be curious to see how the arrows do through empty water jugs. To compare what the effect the water has on the shaft. Maybe shoot some sand bags or Ballistics jel. See how those penetration tests compares to the water jugs and if there is a difference. What about bare shafts with no fletch through the water jugs?

[@brianbreuer6005]

Great stuff. There's no doubt the heavy arrow is a bigger arc. RF did a test when you are zeroed for 40 for each different arrow. Then shoot at 45 with the 40 yard zero simulating a ranging error or moving animal. The difference between light and heavy was about 1.5". That would an actual scenario. You would have your sight set for your setup. See if you get the same. Thanks for the content.

[@shootingatshadow]

Drop will not be a linear relationship to arrow speed as the drop of the arrow is *accelerating* in time. Your speed as you fall increases over time because you're accelerating so that's why it's not linear. That's why when you jump out of a plane, you accelerate towards the earth, until you hit your terminal velocity where drag equals gravitational force

[@thetruth3290]

your friend is so fair he knew his opinion before you even started....

[@anthonylubic]

Super interesting…thanks for sharing 👏🏻

[@tommarymarking1579]

Thinking back, somewhere I heard a arrow design engineer make a statement that there is no advantage in shooting any arrow that is heavier than 8.4 grains times the weight of the bow you are shooting. 8.4 grains X 60lbs = 504 grain arrow. That is the heaviest he recommended, interesting comment by an arrow engineer. Couldn't understand the math he put up to show this? He didn't mess with FOC, fletching etc. Just arrow flight. Just a thought.

[@chancelong8622]

The target defines the test.

[@kc5psd]

Try shooting each arrow weight out of different bows with the same speed. Example 800 grain at 224 ft./s out of one bow. 600 grains out of another bow at 224 ft./s. And then the 400 grain out of another bow at 224 ft./s. And do a penetration test again. I would like to see the difference in penetration of the different weight arrows at the same speed.

[@troyniehaus4136]

Would love to see a low angle of attack broadhead, 2 or 3 blade on the penetration test. Then another test with bone after the first jug. Would like to see if any difference arises...

[@kevinsmith5775]

You guys should show this to the ranch fairy 😂

[@okayesthntr]

Awesome..... "i don't think so Tim!!"

[@johnholmes2502]

What draw weight are you shooting?

[@austinphillips9966]

I didn’t think this would be entertaining but it was kinda fun lol

[@chrismuhlbeier6948]

What we need to be focused on more than this is range error. Do this same test but sight all 3 in at 30. Step to 35 and shoot the 30 pin. How much range forgiveness do you have? I put this together not long ago as an example of my setup if I were to go to a 650 grain arrow. Some online characters minimize it - but this is actual data calibrated from Archers Advantage and my chrono. If I were to shoot a 650 grain arrow at 30 yds and it actually is 35 yds I would hit 1.5" low. Over an entire broadhead low/high. If whitetail vitals are say 10" (which less on smaller bodied & shrinks quartering shots) you have given up 15% precision to your intended shot location just in range error alone. Compound that with any other errors in your shot and it's easily much more than that. Let's say you're average broadhead group size in the backyard at 30 yds is 3". Pretty decent and probably above average based on what I see. Now what is your broadhead group size in hunting conditions? Let's be generous and say it opens up only .5" to a 3.5" group at 30yd from a tree stand. That means that off the top you actually have a window of 6.5" you've got to get that arrow in (10"-3.5" = 6.5"). So you're actual precision you've reduced your odds of hitting vitals in elevation a whopping 23% from the 294 fps setup. This doesn't even touch the subject of giving the animal more time to react. The question people need to be asking themselves is: Am I concerned about penetration so much that I'm willing to give up as much as 23% of vertical precision? Be honest with yourself.. How well can you range? If you're hunting fixed ranges at feeders this effect is minimal. If you're a whitetail hunter who is pre-ranging when you get in a tree because those deer pop out quick and don't give the opportunity, then this is applicable to you. If you're doing the same when that bull is coming in and you have to draw before he pops into that opening you pre-ranged then this matters to you. Make your decisions wisely & consider picking your broadhead based on your penetration needs but not your arrow weight.

[@kellyk3889]

Much better test........... Shoot thru the chrono at point blank, 25 yards & 50 yards and you can calculate everything. Your arrow begins to fall at the acceleration of gravity once it leave the bow. In 1 second it will fall 32 ft (right we all know that). If your arrow is traveling 300fps (doesn't lose any velocity) how long will it take to hit a target at 100 yards? It will fall 32 ft over that 100 yards. (1/2*g*t^2 is the formula) Then go to the field and test the calculations.