Advanced Tactical Fighter Program | YF-23 Vs F-22 Raptor DOGFIGHT | Digital Combat Simulator | DCS |

[@GrowlingSidewinder]

Check out the Merch Store: growling-sidewinder.creator-spring.com/ Thank you guys for watching and if you have any ideas for future videos please put them in the comment section below and they might just end up in the pipeline, thanks again, much Love.

[@Mav09]

F/A-18E/F vs F-35C (Fox-2 fight) would be epic to see! Navy vs Navy : Old vs New Day 4

[@Mav09]

Great fight!

[@joeclaridy]

Can you do the reverse and dogfight the F-22 with the YF-23?

[@emp2312]

I want you to pilot the YF-23! That will give us a baseline of what it can do!

[@1slotmech]

GS., heads up - you'll need to fix this video's title, you have it as 22A as YF22. 😂 Can we get YF23 vs Rafael or Eurofighter at some point? That might be interesting...

[@jasonvick55]

Ya gotta give it to the pilot, that second fight kill by the 23 was freakin dope.

[@1mikesofocused42]

That was crazy

[@jasonvick55]

@@1mikesofocused42 artistry.

[@cosmocart2]

i love everything that happened in this video, i could tell what they were doing and why they were doing it which is a first for me, except for that 2nd kill where it looked like he did an upside down cobra or something im still confused lol

[@jasonvick55]

@@cosmocart2 seriously! That shit was like ballet.

[@rkjg94]

quite the move, almost stalled

[@ghostgaming25771]

Now put the YF-23 up against the SU-57 felon!

[@andrewrogers3067]

YES

[@F23GreyGhost]

I've been asking for this fight for a lil bit 🤘

[@spooderkid6760]

that would be an epic dogfight

[@tonik2229]

yes!!

[@alireyes8211]

Good news everybody. GS already made this video. GS is flying the SU with a buddy, vs two in YF’s. It was a really good fight.

[@raa2640]

The YF-23 I swear has the side profile of a piece of paper!

[@904_noah]

It's so paper thin, like the F-20 Tigershark

[@bruhhhhmoment4848]

@@904_noahthe f5 is pretty thin

[@jpjay1584]

cough, cough.. of a Katana

[@macross25]

I'd actually like to see a YF-23 vs. SU-47 match up, this way we get a sort of real-life MACROSS PLUS dogfight of the YF-19 vs. YF-21 scenario.

[@katherineberger6329]

This IS the Macross Plus scenario. Macross Plus was inspired by the Advanced Tactical Fighter ("Advanced Variable Fighter") competition.

[@macross25]

@@katherineberger6329 I've been watching Macross since 1984, I know this and it's why I mentioned Mac Plus. I suggested the SU-47 because we'd have a forward swept-wing aircraft against the YF-23. (And you are correct, the ATF program was a huge influence on Kawamori.)

[@traviswalker8933]

​@@macross25forward swept wing* many aircraft have swept wings.

[@ske00]

More YF-23 stuff please. I'd also like to see it in some of those scenarios you play as the F-22 pilot.

[@traviswalker8933]

He already did a video like that.

[@v8makoshark]

The black widow is slick and sexy. We need you, G/S to gun fight in it next time against the raptor.

[@traviswalker8933]

I believe this was already discussed to death in the last video. The YF-23 doesn't have the proper cockpit model in it.

[@v8makoshark]

@@traviswalker8933 Yeah, but BR3AK3R7 did alright anyways !

[@srthebox4946]

Gs doesnt use modded aircraft without cockpits even if it’s fine, he wants a high standard of quality for his videos and that includes having a proper cockpit.

[@traviswalker8933]

@@srthebox4946 there is a cockpit in it. It's just not the correct one. The YF-23 had a cockpit based on the F-15E's cockpit.

[@TheEaglePilot]

Nerd: (in the voice) “🤓 um sir the plane is called the YF-23”

[@tristanfarms]

I was about to say the same thing

[@clifjr954]

*Pushes glasses up on nose

[@Icemanツ]

Geeky snorting noises ☝️🤓

[@ExtremeUnction1988]

He’ll catch it

[@Wk-is8eh]

Ackchyually 🤓

[@Kismetix]

Man I love this channel...have to say both pilots did an expert job, and that 2nd fight kill by the 23 was an astounding bit of flying.

[@drakkon_sol]

Breaker is giving you a good run. He seems to be a TOXIC or ANVIL level pilot, the guys that usually give you the most challenge. More videos of you in the YF23 would be amazing. Especially if you do the same mission types that you normally do with the 22.

[@HereticsRight]

I was going to say the same thing about Breaker, he definitely fits into the pantheon with Toxic and Anvil.

[@traviswalker8933]

YF-23 doesn't have a proper cockpit and GS doesn't use mods that aren't properly developed.

[@monke2676]

wdym toxic / anvil?

[@jozomrkva]

And where is Shotgun, the legend with F22 FCS off?

[@christophejergales7852]

​@@monke2676those are names of other pilots he flies against.

[@duaneedwards5439]

YF-23 vs anything! What an amazing aircraft, deadly and sexy at the same time.

[@Catfoolyou]

I'm getting PTSD from that one video where the YF-23 completely shredded the F-22 in a BVR fight.

[@andrewrogers3067]

What vid?

[@bahe57]

​@@andrewrogers3067 it's a old video

[@traviswalker8933]

​@@andrewrogers3067 he made a BVR video about the YF-23 vs F-22 and the F-22 got smoked by the YF-23.

[@straitouttahell]

@@traviswalker8933 the exact words were "it feels like being killed by a ghost" 😁

[@fightingcorsair7297]

It's so great to watch those two aircraft dance.

[@kingscorpion7346]

"Oh, what's this? What's happening?" 💥 😁

[@johns1625]

I think the YF-23 should have been named the Manta Ray rather than Black Widow. I love the diamond profile of it's wings so much!

[@lukecreamer8426]

4:48 I'm not any sort of good at DCS, but I've payed enough attention in 3 years of watching GS videos religiously that I know the mistake here from GS was dropping the nose too much, that put him defensive in 3 seconds flat. Any supermaneuverable aircraft will be able to get nose on if you're both slow and you move under it.

[@quezdonivey5518]

4:29 yeah, I heard it was a combination of the reasons you mentioned, specifically with the B2 delays and cost overruns. There was a big worry that the same thing was gonna happen with the YF 23, ironically it happened with the F-22 as well. But generally, that’s just how these things go, but also it was my understanding that the F-22 was slightly cheaper than the YF-23

[@tallguyfits]

So funny that the government was like, “we haven’t had a dogfight in YEARS. Let’s take the better dog fighter instead of the faster, stealthier, option

[@jeffreychandler8418]

** NGAD patiently waiting **

[@thedishonoredamerican129]

The program was started in the 80s...

[@ImBrockatron]

Maybe quicker but not faster

[@501stIstheBestRegiment]

I think they were annoyed a bit into it by the reformers

[@knightzing]

USAF doctrine changed from interceptors to maneuverability fighters. (Even though both aircraft are good maneuvering planes) Stealth difference was marginal and I would prefer being able to quickly kill then egress if BVR wasn’t enough. (which both can but one does better)

[@GeneralThunderbolt]

The YF-23 was ahead of its time. Better range, speed and stealth which are all the most desirable traits in modern combat. It's likely the NGAD will have these as the main characteristics.

[@aethertech]

NGAD comes out, IT IS the 23 (with a few tweaks). $5

[@deltasierracharlie]

The Northrop's/McDonell Douglas ATF proposal did NOT offer better speed than the Lockheed/Boeing/General Dynamics ATF proposal. That is one the greatest myths still very much alive regarding the ATF program. And when it comes to stealth BOTH designs met the requirements and had very similar RCS numbers. The planned F-23 being more stealthy than the F-22 is not a given fact. Some journalists at the time of the DEM/VAL phase of the ATF program just assumed and wrote that it must be, pretty much basically because to them it looked like it was lol That was their only "proof". And ever since then those words spread and got twisted more and more and a lot of more and more people started saying and claiming as an undisputed fact when actually it's not that simple. From some angles and against some frequencies the Lockheed/Boeing/General Dynamics ATF design is more stealthy.

[@traviswalker8933]

Doesn't matter. It would have been a showpiece like the F-22 anyway.

[@noyrz]

And it can actually hold things in her belly! Yes, I'm looking at you, Amy

[@AB-nv7bz]

@@deltasierracharlieok but it had way better range. It’s a better plane. If u get in a dogfight you made tremendous errors. Issues with Northrop development of the b2 and old heads in the usaf romanticism over dogfights was the reason the f22 won out

[@quezdonivey5518]

2 of the most beautiful aircraft ever

[@emp2312]

Love it keep the YF-23 Dogfights coming! Yes!

[@MrWhiskers65]

I’ve heard many times that the YF23 was almost as maneuverable as the F22 because of its diamond shape lifting body and its large tail surfaces in which the entire tail piece moves. Apparently it was out maneuvered by the tiniest of margins. The YF23 is sexier though.

[@quezdonivey5518]

I’ve heard an engineer tell me it was on par, but the aircraft didn’t have as much test time as the F-22.

[@StEvEn-dp1ri]

Of course you have to do the SU-57 vs YF-23. Not only a regular guns only fight, but a 9x and BVR.

[@kToTheLToTheE]

The YF-23 is effing beautiful

[@skaldlouiscyphre2453]

You missed the chance to say _the YF-23 is Y-effing beautiful_

[@tyronnezx]

I agree!

[@XTXImperator]

What a magnificent monster the YF-23 is! Able to tie with a Raptor is no small feat despite being supposedly less maneuverable. Great flying by Br3aker7 and you btw! YF-23 VS SU-57? Yes please!

[@Vespuchian]

A fight between the prototype YF-22 and production F-22 would be fun to see, since it was brought up in the -typo- title, just to see if there are substantive differences between the two.

[@traviswalker8933]

YF-22 doesn't exist in DCS. Also the title says F-22.

[@joshuaammerman7830]

Ah yes the YF22 vs the F22... (insert spiderman meme.)

[@khoatran-sv7je]

We gotta have these two working together, imagine a force where the YF23 and F22 would come in first to target high-priority targets, then F35's and F15E come in later to take out the remaining targets. What a force that would be. You really gotta fly the YF23 GS!

[@happycanayjian1582]

That was a sweet move at 12:00. 🤟🏼

[@icaleinns6233]

Spider vs. Felon? Oh HELL yeah!

[@willfultrain6779]

I like how it looks like the two planes just spin in place to turn around. 8:16 like that he's literally sideways, but he's still going in a circle.

[@benn454]

"Falling leaves"

[@richardkrenek985]

I’m finally starting to become capable of calling some of these fights based on what I’m seeing. I appreciate the Tac views and teachings. Thank you GS.

[@m3dicated]

Yes, I would like to see a dogfight between F22 and SU57

[@arthurminiear2904]

Really liked this match-up, and would like to see more. And since it's playoff season in hockey and basketball, a best of seven would match-up in that spirit would be cool!

[@loading.....9439]

Cant believe how close they get. Imagine shooting it down just to get a face full of shrapnel off your target. Flying directly through a debris field would have a pucker factor in it self.

[@Reaper_03-01]

The navalised F-22 angle is correct. David Tussey, who flew A-7Es in the USN, worked in the Pentagon during the ATF competition, and YF-23 was too long to fit onto the existing carrier catapult architecture. The cost overruns with the B-2 Spirit did also play a role.

[@timsullivan4566]

GS : "Anyway, as I was saying..." [before you were so rudely shot down😉]

[@entityeoe2285]

Honestly watching these two fight is like a Samurai trying to cut a falling flower petal on a gusty day.

[@entropy11]

5:30 that was just a really good snapshot as you passed his nose. He couldn't have seen you there below his nose so maybe he just guessed really well.

[@Blackie3107]

Yes… more YF23! I really love it. Can’t wait for the NGAD to be made public.

[@rmp5s]

The 23 looks like a 22 that's a bit melty...like it was left in the sun too long. lol

[@shreddRRR]

Yessss! The tracer bullets are back! Thank you kind sir.

[@ac9871]

Thanks for a great video! Would be great to see the YF-23 fight against Su-57 with you flying the Spider.

[@Pyreax865]

I’ve been waiting for this video for so long, it’s finally here.

[@8power0]

THAT WAS SICK,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, THERE HAS GOT TO BE MORE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[@1mikesofocused42]

Yf23 is mainly good for stealth and hit em from a distance and not get seen. The f22s is good for hit them without being seen up close and dogfights

[@retr07397]

I’m enjoying your videos man, I learned so much about aviation just from watching your videos! Keep up the amazing work

[@vortexrage3918]

Yes, I've seen reports that the two different YF-23A aircraft were called (prototype air vehicle) PAV-1 (Grey Ghost) with Prat and Whitney YF119 engines (fuselage painted in lighter Charcoal Grey), and PAV-2 (Spider) which had General Electric YF120 engines and a darker grey scheme. Supposedly, the YF-23 Black Widow II also had a max range of 2,796 miles at a ceiling of 65,000 feet (vs. the YF-22 range of about 2000 miles and 50,000+ foot ceiling). I love both ATF aircraft though, and enjoyed both videos you made with them opposing in BVR and dogfighting each other.

[@GatorAaron]

Man, I thought you were tossing a whole Raptor at him in the last round there. Yes for all the YF-23 fights.

[@christianarrington6492]

Love to see it do one of the behind enemy lines missions and test its stealth in that scenario.

[@imdoobie80]

I definitely agree with the YF-23 vs Su-57 that's a great idea.

[@robbabcock_]

Very cool battle! The F-22 is Minbari tech but the YF-23 is pure Vorlon!👽⚔🔥

[@TheOriginalCoda]

One person (me) got the reference... 😂

[@idahobob]

Would LOVE to see a BVR battle between these two! Probably will go to the merge anyway so best of both worlds.

[@xty9582]

Love the F-23, keep using it in video.Would be nice to see it in a long range mission air-to-air where it can use stealth to dominate

[@SM-qo9gr]

Round 2: I think he wormed up😂

[@tehKLN]

Thank you GS! Love the YF-23 content!

[@gwenthor]

I will always want to see the YF-23 in another fight! I think it's an amazing and beautiful aircraft.

[@williamhuff6656]

On the YF-22 versus YF-23 Air Force decision. At the time, I followed what was going on and recall reading that one thing that hurt the 23 is that the complex curves of the body were harder to manufacture, which would have made it cost more and made repairs more costly. Would love to have seen both of them in the US stable, though.

[@SidekickZero]

Almost clicked off the video after the 3rd fight....I was like, that's a wrap lop. Glad I stuck around!

[@SliceofLife7777]

I read back in the late 80s, that the F22 won the contract for various reasons. But according to Lockheed, the Airforce went with the more conservative design. Back then, I hoped the Northrop bird would clinch a Navy contract, but they went with the Super Hornet. So why did the F35 not get a supercruise engine? I thought the days of pre-supercruise fighter engines were over. We spent a fortune on the ATF program, only to produce a few hundred fighters.

[@miketwain202]

That was some Han Solo flying by the YF-23 last round. Crazy how these engagements end sometimes. 🏴‍☠️

[@kevinmccarthy8746]

A big selling point was the F22 was MORE READY for the show, It did a few things, like open amd close the bomb doors or some other things that put them in a favorable light. That is what we heard any way.

[@piusg]

Watching that first loss with that great spread across center mass was heartbreaking. I love the YF-23. :(

[@johnwestmorland3211]

I would like to see the F22A dogfight the SU 37 Terminator 💯💯💯💯

[@EdD-ym6le]

Waiting for this one , even searched around to see if I had missed it . More YF 23 dogfights .

[@johnwestmorland3211]

GS hopefully you get that F22 vs.the SU 37 Terminator, should be a Classic Dogfight, blessings to you brother, keep up the good work 💯

[@Indarow]

Damn, a 50/50 matchup in this one! That was a badass video. It really is a shame we didn’t get both aircraft.

[@Garian9]

Beautiful sky battles. Would love to see the YF-23 vs SU-57 dogfight. Loved the "What's happening?!" line on the 2nd round.

[@ussgrisham]

I remember logging many many hours on the early PC game stealth fighter with the YF 23 ahhh 486 gaming be sure to press the turbo button on the PC

[@jameshewitt8828]

Yep, in my perfect world both would be service and in large numbers

[@tinkertalksguns7289]

YF23 vs. SU57 would be interesting, both BVR and a gunfight.

[@Ownedyou]

Would like to see the Felon next. To be fair though, Felon has 3D TVC and massive control surface area with LERX and all-moving stabs, the YF-23 will be at sizeable disadvatage.

[@kugelblitzkrieg]

Funnily enough, the “navalized” F-22 (aka the F-22N or Sea Raptor) would’ve needed to have variable-sweep wings like the Tomcat to be adopted. Even though swing-wings are obsolete in modern fighters, having an F-22 with them would’ve been the most BADASS aircraft a military ever produced (the concept art for it proves that).

[@TheGoddamnBacon]

I am curious, where do you find concept art for a swept wing raptor? Can't say that's easy to picture aside from what people theorized the super tomcat would look like.

[@red94mr28]

Why do you think the F-22 would require swept wings? A variant for the USN would have simply incorporated foldable wing tips like the F-35C or F/A-18E/F

[@kugelblitzkrieg]

@@red94mr28 It’s not what _I_ think would be required, it’s specifically what the _Navy_ required on F-22s to adopt it. I’m pretty sure for the Navy, it was less about actually getting the swing wings and moreso about not wanting to adopt the F-22. Gotta remember that the Air Force and Navy kinda hate each other.

[@kugelblitzkrieg]

@@TheGoddamnBacon Look up concept art for the F-22N, NATF-22, or the Sea Raptor. It looks like the lovechild between a Raptor and Tomcat and it’s absolutely beautiful.

[@Geto-Dac]

second kill was dope. hade to see it twice. great move

[@NoogaiBooga]

Well now i guess we need a tiebreaker

[@williamhuff6656]

Definitely want to see the 23 versus the 57. And I want to see you fly the 23 against the 22 and everything else. Ring that thing out.

[@erikcourtney1834]

Yf-23 “black widow” vs the world. But GS has to be the pilot!

[@kinka16]

rematch f16 vs yf23 with fox 2s !! with you flying the yf23

[@darius75240]

In the end, the 22 was cheaper to produce and that’s why it got the contract, according to the program procurement director in an interview.

[@Isaac9pd]

We were supposed to get a Navy variant of the F-22 called the “NATF-22 Sea Raptor”. But it never happened due to complications and also pricing

[@brianbrown7251]

Yes, yes & yes!!! More YF-23 videos please!!!! I would like to see dogfight AND bvr fights against all of the Russian, Chinese & EU best fighter planes. Hopefully soon we will be able to you pilot the grey ghost in most of those vids. Keep'em coming brotha, big fan of your videos

[@Gozar111]

Would love the YF and the Su. We knew these two were very even and the results confirm this

[@enpilarlapaz1494]

Allways keep in mind that planes dont get selected only by their performance. At that time northrop was busy with the B2 (and was already having a lot of cost overruns) while LM kinda had nothing going on in that league.

[@kyleg8928]

2 major reasons F-22 got the contract: 1- Grumman had the B2 on contract…Lockheed was tomoartner with others to keep our defense manufacturing prolific. 2- The F-22 was based of conventional/tested flight surfaces, build and infrastructure. I personally think the 23 was better fit for the role. In the end the F-22 was a more comfortable step from the F-15 for the bean counters and brass. The 23s wing was crafted as a single composite structure…its unproven long term reliability was an unknown at the time. I think the 23 would have had a larger fleet and its would surpass the F-22 today….only if

[@scroopynoopers248]

I’d love to see more YF-23 dog fights. Including high off boresight fights.

[@kittyhawk3831]

I swear, these two birds can trade punches all day long!

[@FPS.Lancer]

Yes, pliz.. we would love to see That fight.

[@standtallvets5386]

Yes on the YF-23 2nd fight. Great video!!

[@dannystratyys4002]

4:55 You very clearly gave him the kill. You could've jinked and stayed out of his gun sights lol. I've seen how aggressive you can be when you want to. Good sport though :)

[@steve390gold]

In the same vein as you using the F22 in a ground attack role with the AIM120 you gotta: F14 with AIM54 being employed against a T72 air to ground!!!

[@rocksteady5517]

The callsigns were actually made out when they got to the museums. When both were flying they didn't refer them as those callsigns.

[@rocksteady5517]

For those wanting to challenge me on this, Have at it. I know what Im talking about :P

[@jamesbarisitz4794]

"What a beautiful aircraft. " "Let's give it some ventilation. "

[@Ghostrider-gn8ml]

I rather would like to see a F-35 vs. SU-75. No matter if BVR or dogfight.

[@DoctyrEvil]

I'm surprised the YF-23 didn't force a vertical fight. The TWR on that aircraft is incredibly high, even compared to the F-22.

[@deltasierracharlie]

The T/W ratio on the YF-23 is way higher than that of the F-22 simply because it was a technology demonstrator aircraft not because of something exotic about it. The YF-22 is also way lighter than the F-22. And the planned F-23 would also have been much heavier than the YF-23.

[@Asghaad]

Much lighter airframe with the same exact engines... Of course its twr will be much higher

[@DoctyrEvil]

MY point was more use it or loose it. I guess we saw in the end that both designs at least as understood but DCS, are well matched.

[@MarcioMarsiglia]

Two wonderful birds!!! ALL The best...

[@RRex_501]

And now F-22 or YF-23 vs. EF2000 plsssss . Love your vids!

[@warmothgmc]

A thought just dawned on me. Have never seen the Vought F8 Crusader in action here…maybe against a Mig 17 or 21 for some Vietnam era fun. As for the F4 Phantom, it’s a shame the Navy didn’t outfit it with guns initially. Missile technolgy back then was a bit wonky.

[@DasScaramooch]

Ya’ll need to keep in mind that GS was busy yakin throughout the tie and was caught out in chain of thought a couple of times not paying enough attention to what he was doing … a second’s here and there distraction can be deadly in a close DF.

[@chrisg9627]

For what it worth: LIKe the YF16/18 competition, I feel that this is far from dead as a concept,. Silence does not mean that the project has passed, rather, that it is preferred not to be under scrutiny. If development is taking place behind the scenes, the Raptor replace ment might well be YF 23 shaped.

[@ryanrundell8538]

Yes do SU57 dogfight next. Some more 5th and 4.5 gen dogfights would be nice.