Is the Enneagram a Trojan Horse in the Church? With Marcia Montenegro

[@MikeWinger]

It is so strange that the new age and progressive movements have so many similarities. The idea of not needing biblical redemption but only needing to be awakened to see that you are already all that Christ is or are already born from above is a theme in the new age influenced sector as well as the progressive sector. They sometimes seem like one crowd and sometimes seem like two crowds heading toward the same destination via different roads.

[@carolberubee]

True. But look at the core of both movements. They both deny the depravity of man. They both espouse the goodness of man at his core. Thus, salvation is a freeing of the "true self" from the "false self," of discovering the divine spark within. They are both a denial of Genesis 5:3.

[@jameymassengale5665]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qKLLZYuKebuVpcU From this video we see how satan enters the church as a savage wolf giving no quarter to the flock or allowing his authority to be questioned. Satan's american deception is outlined in "Star Trek", the enneagram is a tool of the ennead, the 9 gods of egypt, hence the 9 psychological constructs. The 9 were contacted through PROJECT STAR GATE, the military remote viewing project, the ennead conjoined MK Ultra, and BLUE BIRD, in it's assault on the american people. Stanford Research Institute is a major CIA player. Andrijah Puharick, if I remember right, was the liason to seances conducted with Gene Roddenberry for the enneads creation of STAR TREK, and I think George Lucas was also involved. STAR TREK outlines the american takeover: 1. US enterprise 5 year mission 2. Roman Catholic, Jacob Tiberius Church, james t kirk 3.second in command, spock, Israel, high priest live long and prosper. 4.communications, black african uhura 5.pilots, Russia and asia, chekov and sulu 6.protestant, county doctor, the real mcoy 7.the engineer, scottish scotty. 8.the cling ons, klingons, to Christ, intolerant, unpeaceful, stuck in the old ways. But why they gotta be black? Racism hides a multitude of covert operations. The goal a united federation of planets among foreign gods. Any body want to get high and watch star trek? Man that's hypnotic. COLD READING en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading The church should learn cold reading for 2 reasons: 1.prevent deception, astrology, "word of knowledge", etc. 2. To evaluate truth in experience, the NT does not apply cold reading evangelism. Compare John Macarthur and Kenneth Copeland. PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS in GUERILLA WARFARE en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_Operations_in_Guerrilla_Warfare CLEARLY shows the government is infiltrating the church for military purposes. Crips, Bloods, BGD, KKK, Aryans, on the streets protecting the hood.

[@ardbegthequestion]

Carol Berubee - how was Adam created at his core? Maybe the fall is the arc of all people and not the generational permanent ink blot on humanity ever since. And more to the this point, I think it’s only getting more difficult to actually defend that Adam and Eve were actual real people.

[@carolberubee]

@@ardbegthequestion Your last sentence tells me that no matter what I say about Adam's sin, and our subsequent depravity, it won't matter to you. The culture, and the time in which we live, have no bearing on the validity of God's Word. As time goes on, God's Word remains true, regardless of what man posits to counter it. I can defend the literal, physical existence of Adam and Eve because it's what God has told us through His chosen writers.

[@ardbegthequestion]

Carol Berubee - go ahead and defend that then. I’m curious what actual justification you have other than “the Bible tells me so”

[@RFblank]

I really like the enneagram, so I'm glad to know this information. Thank you for the interview. I will be praying to be transformed into the image of Christ, not a better version of myself.

[@letmeapologize]

Wow! What a humble and real prayer. Looks like the Holy Spirit was already working on your heart at the time you watched this video. Wondering how you're feeling about the Enneagram now or whether you still use it??

[@RFblank]

@@letmeapologize thanks for asking, yes I agree I believe He was working on both my heart and my husband's, so we have not used the enneagram since finding this out. It's not as harmless as it may seem.

[@letmeapologize]

@@RFblank Amen! Happy for your and your husband. Praise God for opening our spiritual eyes to recognize the deceptions around us.

[@celiafish]

I know! We were introduced to it from our team member when working overseas in missions!😱

[@celiafish]

New Age based truth on experience “ We. Need to be base truth on God s word!

[@theLordsboy]

We are so blessed to have these ladies warning the Church. The “great falling away” is well on its way!

[@felipea1844]

The Great Falling Away began in the USA with the Sexual Revolution in the USA of the 1960s.

[@BFore-rr6ze]

@@felipea1844 - The sexual revolution has to do with the world. The great falling away has to do with the church. The great falling away will mostly be about some in the church choosing false doctrine and less about committing behavioral sins.

[@nancyyoung9799]

Agreed. Ralph.

[@rickfromthecape3135]

The "Falling Away" got rolling with Brownsville.

[@BFore-rr6ze]

@@rickfromthecape3135 - I'm not sure about Brownsville. But, have you noticed the number of "deconstruction" videos on YT?

[@arclemons1967]

God's timeliness never ceases to amaze me! I just learned about and took the Enneagram as part of my church's MOPS program, in which I'm a mentor mom. It felt weird at the time, and the concept of "wings" was even odder. Then, voilá, this video shows up in my suggestions feed. I so appreciate all the information presented - especially the occultic origins of the Enneagram and the heretical proponents of it. My uneasy spirit about it has been validated, and, rest assured, I will be forwarding this video to church leadership. Thank you for taking the time to put this interview/video together!

[@joburton1629]

Can you forward it to my church as well , cos they all do it

[@carlidoepke5131]

Glad for MOPS mentors with discernment and encouragement to stand up for the truth. We need Christ preached at mops, not self-help fluff. I think about all the ladies who come in without a home church or who have a watered down understanding of the gospel. We need to be bold enough to take the opportunity to be direct about the gospel - even if it’s just a couple minutes at the end with a clear Christ-centered message. Should we waste our opportunity?

[@AMETHYSTANGEL216]

I was a MOPS mom 30 years ago. Then I graduated to a MESS {Mother of Elementary School Students} 😂😂😂 My experience was so Biblically centered. I'm so grateful. 💜😇🙏🏽✝️

[@rampartranger7749]

All the personality tests are over-rated, limited in value, ......whoever you are, you are not a boxed and pigeonholed personality, you are utterly unique, never been anyone like you, never will be seen again, no one can give God himself the joy that you can. You are not a number or letter code, you are SO SO much more.

[@SpeakerBuilder]

Exactly, AND we are not tied to or limited by our personality. With the mind of Christ, we can overcome any limitation and live out His will no matter what He calls us to.

[@chrisblackasr7095]

💯% agree

[@BeckyMa9482]

I first heard of the Enneagram on Dave Ramsey's show. His daughter Rachel is a big fan. Interesting because Dave is so conservative. But I initially thought it was okay because they talked about it. I love what you said about it taking your focus off God and putting it on yourself. It's all too easy to focus on ourselves instead of God.

[@mweber5459]

😯

[@ahandfuloffun]

Thanks for the heads up. My kids listen to Ramsey a lot.

[@mungbean345]

We used to listen to him quite a bit, but red flags started to come more frequently and closer together. No matter who we appreciate, it's so important to be in the Word frequently and to be discerning. It doesn't always mean we have to cut ties, but it does mean we should be very careful with what we pick up from those around us and continue to ask God to help us only keep the stuff that honors Him!

[@janinemarks7727]

I first heard about it from our Pastors wife. I researched it before getting too involved with it and discovered the truth. It’s frightening how very many have been deceived.

[@sophia4christ]

I also heard Rachel Cruz talking about it. I follow Dave Ramsey and crew too. I have never felt comfortable with those sessions. I am so happy I found this video. I will continue to research this satanic intrusion into the church. We need to know Jesus Christ for ourselves and not blindly follow anyone else.

[@allisonflippen8985]

I was first introduced to Meyers-Brigg and the Enneagram through my church. My husband and I never felt peaceful about them at all. Mainly because it felt like it was giving excuses to how we behave and who we are rather than look at our weaknesses to to grow those areas. This confirms why it never set well in my Spirit. Thank you for sharing.

[@Simply4MEnUS]

Even the Meyers Briggs test?

[@beckyschauer7650]

@@Simply4MEnUS Any time we’re looking to the world to tell us who we are we are not looking to God to tell us who we are. I don’t know the origins of the Meyers-Brigg test but when I took it a few years ago it just left me more confused about myself. Almost every category seemed like me. I took it twice on different days and got different results. I decided then that this, at least for me, was not something I should spend any more time on. God’s Word brings me clarity and purpose in who He says I am; personality tests left me confused and uncertain.

[@DGolden247]

@@Simply4MEnUS I’ve been studying Jungian Typology, which is the root origin of the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator (MBTI), for years now. Carl Jung, who created the Psychological Types, had a very shady spiritual past, and the way how all the Jungian Typology models are used by most aren’t God-focused at all but rather self-focused, and anything that distracts you from God isn’t good. Jungian Typology and Enneagram both have bad origins and both can be used sinfully. Anything that came from the world and not from God can be used sinfully. But I think this is truer for Enneagram than it is for Jungian Typology. Carl Jung was a psychiatrist and psychoanalyst who founded analytical psychology, so at the very least Jungian Typology had a start in a scientific field. Furthermore the theory of Typology has evolved so much that no longer does Carl Jung’s strange spiritual background seem to be even a little apparent in all the many different models, such as MBTI, Objective Personality, Socionics, etc. These current revisions of Typology all strive towards a more accurate, scientific view of personality. One such attempt is the gradual abandonment of self-typing, self assessments & tests. These are being replaced by typing sessions where others, especially those who have been trained to type, type you which eliminates the subjective bias that you have of yourself. Much better than reading a personality profile online by yourself and determining whether or not it sounds like you. Meanwhile Enneagram didn’t start from a scientific field nor does it seem to strive towards any scientific accuracy, and because it is so unscientific and subjective it just seems as spiritually corrupt as Astrology. But when it comes to how spiritually corrupt Jungian Typology is, it’s about as corrupt as the overall field of Psychology, more or less. It can be either a bad or a good tool, depending on how you use it. I personally use to describe the behavioral patterns that we as humans all seem to share with one another, but I can live without it. God is ultimately more important.

[@mythographer]

Carl Jung was a Gnostic and is the fountainhead of so much of this deception. Make no mistake, he was a genius. It took me decades to get at the underlying falsehoods at the base of his system. Caveat emptor!

[@fernandodelagarza7460]

The self is fallen, corrupted by the fall of Adam, and is mixed w the serpentine rebellious nature. Jesus in Matthew 18 rebuked Peter as Satan for setting his mind on the things of man, earthly, not on the things of God. Then He said whoever wants to follow Me he must DENY HIMSELF, take up his cross (die to the self) and follow Me. Earlier He had said you need loose your life in this age in order to gain it in the coming age (after the resurrection, the millennial kingdom). Paul's struggle w his fallen nature in Romans 7 is very revealing.

[@ghostrider3780]

Yet again, another “tool” that turns focus away from Christ and on to me me me! No wonder so many people in the Church are ungrounded, unfocused, and unhappy. We have made little gods out of ourselves. I can tell you exactly what my “personality type” is. I am a sinner, rebellious by nature, whose only hope is the cross of Jesus Christ.

[@CarnivoreChristian777]

And not born again/saved.

[@lkae4]

@@CarnivoreChristian777 Are you saved? What makes you saved? And were you born into a new Godless personality type or did you ready have one?

[@Mon3199_]

People in the church are unhappy because y’all waste so much time telling people to afraid of everything.

[@lkae4]

@@Mon3199_ Who told you people in the church are unhappy? Is that gossip or slander?

[@bellkatz9068]

Amen!

[@arielkoning6841]

Thanks Alisa and Marcia! I was talking to a friend about a year ago, and we both were having a discussion about why personality tests (Meyers-Briggs, Enneagrams, etc.) and our results in them ALWAYS ALWAYS felt like they fell short. We kept digging and digging into why that might be and came to the realization that the only things these personality tests do is make us try to "find ourselves within ourselves" when scripture says the opposite: "Find God and in Him find who you are meant to be." As fallen people, if we keep looking within, we'll only find more fallenness and brokenness. That's why we've always felt unfulfilled by them. Thanks for this discussion!

[@GodGirl254]

I agree with these very notions.

[@bridgeta.mazade5269]

I'm processing this whole topic myself. I am Christian and was a Psychology major with specific interest in concepts of self and personality typing and have recently encountered the Enneagram and found it very helpful. But I also am interested in finding out more about its...odd origins and agree that Richard Rohr is on the other side of the "line" when it comes to Christian doctrine. I consider myself conservative, but also think that - contrary to what Marca said that it is sensible to allow experience to at least contribute to our understanding of God, because it is information about reality (taken with the appropriate grain of salt for anecdotal experience and biases of course). But the one thing I am 100% comfortable saying is I totally agree with your comment. I know I need more time in Scripture and prayer and to be filled with God and not myself. "He must increase and I must decrease". We must die to self in order to find life.

[@christinaszrama5903]

The point of personality tests can be to just understand yourself better- AS A FALLEN IMAGE BEARER. How else are you gonna preach the Gospel to yourself? How else are you going to understand where your friends are coming from? Would u throw out the 5 languages of love because someone told you “God is the source of all REAL love”? Ummm yeah He is but we also can show love in different ways so others receive it better.

[@StephanieH.-pu8iz]

I have yet to listen to this podcast. My gut reaction is to say something crass, like “I think you have that confused with”pentagram.” But before I “put my foot down” on that statement, I want to listen to the podcast. Also, I’m pretty certain that that “scripture” quoted above (in the original comment) is not a scripture. Although the Bible does say that he who loses his life for the sake of Jesus will find it. Maybe it’s some funky translation of that scripture. But I don’t think I quoted that exactly myself though either here. But is that the scripture that the quote in the original comment is trying to cite? Okay I am not God, so there is possibility I could be wrong. But right off hand, I don’t see that recognizing, studying, or noticing differing and unique personality traits - IN & OF ITSELF - is wrong or incompatible with God our Creator. Yes there are certain dangers inherent (POTENTIALLY), such as of pigeon-holing people. I agree there. Or, sometimes even psychologists have become traitorous to the people they are supposed to help by working for those with agendas of manipulating people to various ends. Whereas Moses said, “Let my people go.” Anyway, even a good tool can be used for evil agendas, such as to manipulate people or populations. I’ve often noticed that even wisdom could possibly be used as a sort of “how-to manual” for those with various predatory purposes. And of course we should not be focusing on ourselves or humans more than on God. I do know that in life we sometimes come across people with some very serious personality hang-ups, and these people can be very difficult to be around or to deal with. If recognizing their differing or unique personality traits is of help in understanding where they are coming from - then so far, I am not against personality tests. Personalities should not be confused with the Holy Spirit, of course, and things like that. Neither should intellectualism or imagination, etc. Anyway I now plan on listening to the podcast and will see if I agree with it. For the moment, I am wondering if being against it (these”grams”) is just more (same old, same old) stamping out of the unique individualism that God created in us. Of course I had better pray first for the wisdom of God. And then listen to the podcast. If I find or recognize that I am wrong, I will do my best to get back in here and point it out.

[@erindraughon5119]

My middle school daughter recently completed one of these tests as part of her classes in school. She sent me the link and I took the same test. It didn’t sit well with me but I couldn’t articulate why. Now I understand that it’s because this test attempts to define our identity and as soon as we agree with that instead of who God says we are, we’ve come into agreement with man’s words instead of God’s word over our lives. Thank you so much for posting this!

[@jackjones3657]

The Enneagram exhibits how vulnerable people can be to the powers of suggestion. We often hear what we want to hear which is why churches simply need to focus FIRST AND FOREMOST on God's Word, not feel good, self-focused 'seeker sensitivity.'

[@Kathleen253]

Amen!!

[@watitduful]

Exactly! It’s mentalism at the end of the day which in turn is literally witchcraft.

[@dylanmoon780]

I was pretty into the enneagram about a year ago, then I did some digging into its origins after I heard Doreen Virtue make some passing comments on it, and wow. I was shocked how every one of my Christian friends responded when I presented the truth to them. Not ONE of them renounced it with me. Some chose to remain in ignorance and some chose to defend it. It was pretty shocking and really put me on my guard.

[@briannehill7583]

Same! I thought it was just a personality test. And in fact the church I used to be work for used things like Meyers Briggs to place you in specific ministry. So I dodnt think deeply about it. And then I started to. And what was uncovered is alarming to say the least. I repented. And then it occured to me that personality tests in general put too much focus in ourselves. And even if they have no foundation in the occult they can still be idolatrous. And we dont actually need them. We need to stop putting so much emphasis on who we are and spend more time on who Christ is.

[@dylanmoon780]

@@briannehill7583 Yes, exactly! Sick of seeing all these extra things stuffed into the church to try to make it seem cooler or whatever. It's bait, really. We like to think about ourselves and we like to feel like we are unique. But we are meant to be blocks in the temple now, with Christ as our cornerstone. We aren't ourselves anymore. We are the temple, the body, the bride. All of our devotion needs to be on him.

[@briannehill7583]

@@dylanmoon780 I absolutely agree. We don't need all the extra fluff. What we church congregants actually need deeply is to learn how to properly read their bibles. We need church to be about scripture not about life applications.

[@jameymassengale5665]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qKLLZYuKebuVpcU From this video we see how satan enters the church as a savage wolf giving no quarter to the flock or allowing his authority to be questioned. Satan's american deception is outlined in "Star Trek", the enneagram is a tool of the ennead, the 9 gods of egypt, hence the 9 psychological constructs. The 9 were contacted through PROJECT STAR GATE, the military remote viewing project, the ennead conjoined MK Ultra, and BLUE BIRD, in it's assault on the american people. Stanford Research Institute is a major CIA player. Andrijah Puharick, if I remember right, was the liason to seances conducted with Gene Roddenberry for the enneads creation of STAR TREK, and I think George Lucas was also involved. STAR TREK outlines the american takeover: 1. US enterprise 5 year mission 2. Roman Catholic, Jacob Tiberius Church, james t kirk 3.second in command, spock, Israel, high priest live long and prosper. 4.communications, black african uhura 5.pilots, Russia and asia, chekov and sulu 6.protestant, county doctor, the real mcoy 7.the engineer, scottish scotty. 8.the cling ons, klingons, to Christ, intolerant, unpeaceful, stuck in the old ways. But why they gotta be black? Racism hides a multitude of covert operations. The goal a united federation of planets among foreign gods. Any body want to get high and watch star trek? Man that's hypnotic. COLD READING en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading The church should learn cold reading for 2 reasons: 1.prevent deception, astrology, "word of knowledge", etc. 2. To evaluate truth in experience, the NT does not apply cold reading evangelism. Compare John Macarthur and Kenneth Copeland. PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS in GUERILLA WARFARE en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_Operations_in_Guerrilla_Warfare CLEARLY shows the government is infiltrating the church for military purposes. Crips, Bloods, BGD, KKK, Aryans, on the streets protecting the hood.

[@celestetori7705]

Dylan Moon yes, I was part of a Bible study and the women would talk about the enneagram all the time. I did not know anything about it, and have been shocked to find out about it.

[@elgabenedicta]

All these new age and progressive teachings coming in to the Church are pulling people away from the suffiency of God, His Words and His grace to us.

[@kevinfox2316]

May God bless you!

[@Kathleen253]

Amen and amen!

[@amandat3919]

I felt very convicted about the enneagram a few months ago and recently came upon this. Thank you for confirming why I was feeling off about it. I have true clarity now and I’m so grateful. 🙌🏼 Praise God!

[@roberthoffhines5419]

I got tangled up with a couple who used it for marriage counselling. My wife really bought into it. Uses it too much to filter how she sees herself, me and I regret...our marriage. I knew something was off when our types were declared as not being compatible. We were already in trouble, and this just twisted the knife. Hanging in there...pray for us.

[@ColourfulIndian]

Have you read "When Sinners Say i Do" by Rev Dave Harvey? It's an excellent read for married couples or those preparing for marriage. It may help ♡ God bless.

[@LLWW]

Don't let man separate what God has bound together. No personality quiz is more powerful than God. Get a better Christian therapist too. Wishing you the best in your marriage brother.

[@roberthoffhines5419]

@@LLWW God bless you. We're finding our way back to each other in these last months, without any personality quizzes! I was pretty grim when I wrote that.

[@christinaszrama5903]

There’s no such thing as non-compatible according to the Enneagram. Try “Becoming Us” for a Gospel-centered use of the enneagram in marriage.

[@marygercke6255]

Praying. I had a similar situation. We both rejected it thank God. It is a tool of the devil. Marriage is only healed through the intervention of God. The path may be long. May God lead and guide us.

[@tinaabbott4815]

Yes! As a former new ager myself, when I see or hear Christian friends starting sentences with “I’m an enneagram_____” it makes me cringe! Thank you for this discussion, and the excellent points that were made.

[@janawalczuk833]

I’m so glad you have been brought to the light of Christ✝️

[@renpatman]

Brilliant podcast as always! Have to admit I was one of those taken in by this deception through the church but God is faithful to open blind eyes.

[@acollins0910]

My church has really started pushing this lately with staff and now the volunteers. I tried to take it a couple of times but it made me uneasy so I stopped and never completed. I have been feeling for a while the Holy Spirit telling me it was time to find a new church. After watching this and the responses I have gotten from staff when I questioned it, as well as some biblical inaccuracy getting more often, I feel I have confirmation on moving forward in finding a new church home. Thank you so much for posting this!

[@DavidWatson-xb2vh]

I've had an uneasy feeling about enneagram since I heard about it last year, but could never put my finger on what was so bad about it. Thank you so much for all the good insight and info into this stuff!

[@BethanyJoyWilson]

This was one of the best interviews about this topic I’ve watched. I just really wish I could get my friends to watch this whole thing. All of them have defended it and have not turned away. Makes me sad 😕

[@juliem8603]

Yup. I’ll never get anyone to watch it. People I know are sucked in.

[@kathybailey7190]

We need to pray for open eyes. I have a Christian friend whom I have seen over the years go from one deception to another. And recently has even studied ennagram in a course at a college. My heart is broken 💔 for her. I pray but no cracks yet.

[@BethanyJoyWilson]

Kathy Bailey I guess we can cling to the hope that those who are truly in Christ can not be taken from his hand. I definitely feel like prayer is the only thing I actively can do without damaging relationships.

[@kathybailey7190]

@@BethanyJoyWilson yes it is only prayer.

[@janawalczuk833]

Hang in there….you sound very strong in your faithfulness

[@ReneaHanks]

I have listened to several of your videos. You don't talk over your guests and you thoughtfully listen. I appreciate you. Thank you💛

[@oophelia46]

Rachel Hollis and Jen Hatmaker, once influential Christian women, discuss this. Not surprisingly, their theology has gone off the rails.

[@jjgems5909]

It was always off the rails lol now it’s rolled down the hill, crashed and burned

[@dylanmoon780]

I work at a Barnes & Noble and Rachel Hollis has books in so many different sections: Christian Living, Cooking, Business, and Personal Growth. Not only is this a bad marketing strategy, it kinda illustrates the point that she's not focused on Christ above all things. She's a try-hard. Trying to be known by everyone, but not trying to make everyone known by God.

[@BrotherDave80]

love sister Marcia! she is a fb friend and preaching against the false light of lucifer!!

[@rebeccaotis8056]

I just happened to stumble upon this video and want to thank you so much for making it. I have long been concerned about the enneagram and its increasing popularity among Christians. As I watched the video a few things were mentioned that I recalled being mentioned by the Bible College that I formerly attended ("spiritual guide/guidance" for one). I became suspicious that they were probably embracing the enneagram as well, so I did a quick search on the enneagram and the name of the college. Sure enough, they had a seminar teaching the enneagram. The speaker happened to be the same professor who I have been concerned about for years (so much so that I contacted the school about it) who has been bringing in contemplative practices and progressive/Marxist thinking into the school. I watched a free webinar on the enneagram that this professor gave and was blown away at how what he was saying mirrored what you ladies discuss in this video. He talked about how deep at our cores we are holy and we are all trying to get back to that, but that we have built up these defense mechanisms because of the things that have happened to us in life. He was pointing to certain passages of scripture and saying, "that's the enneagram!" He talked about the enneagram being an "entry point" to God. I did a little more research and found that Richard Rohr has given a favorable review of this professor's new book, Between Two Trees: Our Transformation from Death to Life. I also noticed the school now uses the phrase "Christian tradition" in the description of some of their classes. It is absolutely frightening how deception enters into the church and Christian institutions, and all it takes is ONE person. Again, Thank you, thank you, thank you for making this video.

[@carlidoepke5131]

Shane Wood? Ozark???? Can I ask what concerns you have with him? I’ve watched some of his teachings.

[@cjparenzini]

Yeeeeeees!!! I've felt this way for YEARS and people think I'm odd to not love the Enneagram. We need to pray and seek decernment on everything.

[@MourningTalkShow]

Without defending the Enneagram at all, I think the fact of its rapid spread speaks to the fact that there is a deficit in the evangelical church when it comes to self-understanding. Everyone I know who has gotten into the Enneagram has felt the need to understand themselves better so that they can be more loving and feel less unfocused shame. I think the best way to eliminate the Enneagram from churches is to satisfy this need in a more nuanced way. The church needs to confront the mystery of what it means to experience God's love for us as individuals. We must overcome this mistrust of serious introspection. The church can be the easiest place in the world to hide our darkness because it gives us such a distinct set of behaviors defined as righteousness. If the church was properly encouraging and facilitating self-knowledge, people would be more authentic and more likely to grow in faith.

[@christincommon5496]

Respectfully, in my experience most people in evangelical churches are not born again, (I said the prayer, so I’m good!) hence the need to dodge guilt and condemnation. Jesus Christ sets us free from condemnation and guilt. That is what happens at the cross. We need less false preaching and more true gospel message. His Holy Spirit begins transforming us and telling us who we are. Zero need to be introspective-we follow Christ and He transforms us. This is why we don’t see anywhere in scripture that we should be informed by what we find when we “look within”.

[@MourningTalkShow]

Christ In Common I can’t remember anyone actually saying “out loud” that we have zero need for introspection under Christ. It is hard to even know where to begin with a statement like that. On a personal level I’ve never known any strong and loving Christians who didn’t have insights about introspection. I can believe that true introspection is done by grace, but not that no introspection is needed. As for scripture, Romans 12:1-8 comes to mind. It entreats is to be transformed by the renewing of our minds and then invites us to test and approve God’s pleasing and perfect will. I don’t see how you could argue that this statement can’t apply to our internal state. Then comes the verses about the body with different parts. We must learn about ourselves to know and refine our function. I hope that people will see your statement as a cautionary tale. People who don’t try to understand themselves and wait for pure revelation and intervention from the spirit with no personal effort could easily become dangerous in the kingdom.

[@mweber5459]

This is accomplished through reading God’s word.

[@christincommon5496]

@@MourningTalkShow Thank you for your reply. I mis-spoke when I said we have "zero" need for introspection. Holy Spirits brings us to introspection all the time. I do not agree that psychology is helpful, especially if you look into the history of the "greats" of psychology who basically "invented" that science.

[@balsamicvinegar5789]

Self understanding? We are fallen sinful people who do nor seek God. What is there to understand?

[@suewilliamson4247]

Peter was not the actual rock Christ built His church on. The faith that Peter proclaimed that Jesus is the Son of God, the Messiah, as revealed to him from the Holy Spirit, is the rock Christ builds His Church upon. Just a clarification because the Catholic church holds Peter as that rock, but it is the statement Peter made, not Peter himself, that is the foundation of the Church.

[@ascendingkral]

Exactly!

[@Kathleen253]

I am glad you brought out that much covered up fact.

[@amberroot4158]

Thank you!!! Came into the comments (which I never do) to say the exact same thing. The ROCK was the TESTIMONY of JESUS CHRIST not the man Peter. Another fallacy taught by the mother of all false churches. My stomach sunk when she made that comment.

[@sophia4christ]

Exactly! Amen.

[@User_Happy35]

I wish this interview would go viral.

[@bethclark9107]

Thank you for teaching the truth ! I had no idea the roots of the enneagram were not valid ( even from a psychological perspective) and actually counter Christian by teaching self focus. I'm Throwing my books away and sharing the truth with my fellow Christian friends. Christ is the answer to anything we face. Always has been and always will be.

[@User_Happy35]

I was introduced to the Enneagram around 2016 by a Christian friend (I wasn't born again at that time but was considering it) and he recommended one of the popular books on it. Something didn't sit right with me and I read some reviews on it and tried to find out about its origin and quickly realized that it wasn't founded on anything biblical or scientific. How do mature bible believing Christians get duped into this stuff so easily and end up teaching it to others?

[@jeankolbo3602]

I think it’s great you were able to discern the truth and you sensed something not quite right.

[@robinmoore7202]

Happy35 To answer your question, they don’t study the Bible they believe in. They grab at the latest and greatest thing that puts the focus back on themselves and not on God.

[@ashleycarroll504]

The answer is uncomfortable: Christians, as still fallen humans with that flesh warring against the Spirit inside them, still look for answers and understanding about life outside of God’s word. They think “The Bible tells me principles for how to live. And [this program/theory] has some similar teachings. But [this program/theory] also goes further and tells me ‘everything’ about me individually and even tells me my next steps in personal development. I’ve been looking for a way to fix myself and my life. If I find ‘balance’ like [this program/theory] says to, then I will have a better life. I will become my most true and best self!”

[@christinaszrama5903]

Bc lots of us mature Bible believing Christians find it really helpful. We aren’t duped, thanks.

[@andrewcramer9200]

@christinaszrama5903 yes, you are. Psychologists have thoroughly explained how it dupes you.

[@blostin]

Any needs can be filled by the Holy Spirit and his gifts, but many Christians prefer what the world offers instead. They forget what the apostle John says in 1 John 5:19: "We know that we are of God, and the whole world is under the sway of the evil one." (HCSB)

[@lindajohnson4204]

This is true of political movements, too, yet so many want to be "50% American - 50% Christian", afraid to step away from the perception of being pragmatic.

[@ginakeith5520]

I am out of the loop as I never heard about the enneagram until very recent from a Baptist minister, who advised Christians to stay away from it. I am learning something I wasn't aware of.

[@dawnlynnmann6272]

Fabulous interview! So much knowledge and insight coming from this discussion. So many are deceived. I don’t believe in these practices of new age, but learned so much. Thank you.

[@mindymiller9279]

So grateful for this podcast. (Also laughed when the first KZbin ad was for a program teaching the enneagram! I was listening carefully to how the ad described it. Exactly what Marcia and Alisa said!)

[@1smileykat4u]

A fool has no delight in understanding, but that his heart may discover itself. ~Proverbs 18:2~

[@christincommon5496]

My Bible has Proverbs 18:2 as “A fool takes no pleasure in understanding, but only in expressing his opinion.”

[@mzsunnyshine007]

“A fool does not delight in understanding, But only in revealing his own mind.” ‭‭Proverbs‬ ‭18:2‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬ I guess it depends on the version you’re using

[@alise1424]

Perfect examples here how just a few words have changed and completely taken a different meaning in the Bible

[@Sooner-im9qf]

@@alise1424 No, same meaning.

[@elisabethericka8816]

It seems like the enneagram is becoming an idol to many. We need to guard our hearts and minds.

[@KJ-lb4tj]

Anything can become an idol, food, ministry, anything

[@KJ-lb4tj]

@@LizaLavolta Christians could benefit from thinking less black and white than this. Anything can have occult roots... The church is letting the devil in when pastors abuse children, when they use control and lord it over people, when we sin in any way... You can be sure, this is of the devil and letting the devil in. The church has a horrendous history of this let alone the crusades and more recently the amount of abuse happening under the church's control. This is a history of letting the occult in and it's within Christianity. So I would want be careful to label everything that follows as not good, just because there is a history of it being not good. Anything good that comes from something is from God, because God is all good, and anything evil that comes from something is from the devil... Whether you call it the ennegram or Christianity. I eat halal meat in the ME with my Muslim brothers and sisters that has been prayed over...I have no fear because of its history. Jesus is well aware and well above the history of something. And we can eat and take the good God has given us in things without fear and without giving the devil more credit than he's worth. Yoga has Eastern mysticism as it's history, but that doesn't mean our kids don't do a fair number of the exercises regularly as part of their physical education warm ups and stretches, because they happen to be particularly good for the body. We don't live in a black and white world and Jesus was definitely not black and white in his thinking, unlike the Pharisees. He was well able to take the good from the corn in the fields on a Sunday even though it was against his religion and laws. He was well able to eat and dine with the people with the worst history and yet redeem it all.

[@anastasiaremmes6601]

A big red flag I heard someone say that it is to help them know themselves better.........NOPE, that's, not Christianity. I think so many people think that whatever you do must "work" rather than asking is it true? Thanks for the information.

[@magistersteveperkins]

36:44 “It will help you all as a staff get together better.” That is EXACTLY how our large, evangelical church uses it. Every pastor and most, it not all, staff members have been through it, and when I was on the elder board a few years ago, all of the elders did as well.

[@lauraelizabethbrown]

Even though it's channeled material you feel at peace with that? What are your thoughts on channeling spirits?

[@andrewcramer9200]

Studies have proven organizations are wasting time and money on these things, that they provide no benefit to interpersonal dynamics nor performance 🤷🏻‍♂️ www.google.com/amp/s/amp.usatoday.com/amp/3635592002?espv=1 These things are a multi-million dollar boondoggle.

[@ColourfulIndian]

I think the main concern I have here is why many people don't think the Bible is enough to help Christians grow together and walk with each other.

[@gmjsimmons]

This was an incredible mind changing video. Ms. Montenegro was a rich resource on the Enneagram. Early on in my studies into personality theories, I ran across the Enneagram. It had some unique aspects. Ms. Montenegro's exposition of taking on a filter from these pattern imposing theories was particularly helpful. I am rethinking my views on the Enneagram and the Myers-Briggs Type Indicator. Ms. Childers you are performing an amazing service. To those who won't listen to sound doctrine, I thoroughly understand. To those who will, a thousand sad traps will be avoided.

[@jennycook2240]

Thank you for this information. I thought it was simply a personality test. I now know and will be talking with my grown kids who are into it. Thanks!

[@christinaszrama5903]

it is a personality test. 🙄

[@oracawa]

Thankyou so much for having Marcia explain the truth about the Enneagram. I bought the book by Don & Joy Veinot and Marcia. I have known them all for many years. I currently work at Colorado Christian University located in Lakewood Colorado which borders Denver to the West. The Enneagram is being used for the faculty, staff and students. I think this is a huge problem. I would like to somehow get this video sent to the university. They are using the Book, The Road Back to You.

[@paigewells3678]

I’ve observed that Christians love and defend the enneagram way more than any secular folks I know. Very concerning .

[@gabriellekelly3462]

I went down the ennegram rabbit hole about a year ago, after seeing it appear in several "christian" sources. What was so compelling is that it appeared accurate. It seemed to really nail me down, so to speak. But as I thought about it, it seemed more like a psychological test. Like if you asked someone 100 questions about themselves, thoughts and reactions you could probably get pretty close to an accurate portrait of their personality. Somewhat like a questionnaire also determines what mental disorder you "have." Everyone with bipolar can be pretty similar, with pretty similar weaknesses & even life experiences, even strengths. PTSD, Depression, ect. They're gonna nail you down with a series of questions. It's basically the "christian" (not really) cross between the zodiac & psychology. It is NOT of God. It's is Gnostic & Mystic Christianity. Which is NOT of Christ.

[@andrewcramer9200]

That's the Barnum Effect. Easy example: one of the most popular Enneagram sites listed this as a "trait" of only one type: "[Enneagram number] prefers to spend their free time doing things they enjoy." I am not making this up. It was on 9types' website. I was floored how stupid it was.

[@SaraJeanne7]

This is absolutely fascinating. The perennial philosophy sounds like something someone close to me is concluding about reality. I didn't know there was a name for it. Thank you for this!!!

[@JonJaeden]

Evangelicalism's love of novelty makes it a target for every idea running through the culture. They may be late adapters, but adapt they do ... until the next one comes through.

[@lisagravely5107]

I am so with you on this, Alisa. I have been astounded at how the church and christian counseling has opened itself up to this. I didn’t know the background but recognized it as false teaching as people are using it as how to identify and introduce themselves. Deception. Thank you for this interview.

[@elizabethkern1280]

Thank you for what you guys talked about. I heard about the enneagram several years ago when I was in college and I immediately had a feeling that something was not quite right about it but was not sure why and now I know why I had that feeling and why I didn't want to have anything to do with it.

[@melindamercier6811]

“That Richard Rohr.” My thoughts EXACTLY! Goodness gracious that man has his dirty fingerprints all over the Church. 😣

[@jameymassengale5665]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qKLLZYuKebuVpcU From this video we see how satan enters the church as a savage wolf giving no quarter to the flock or allowing his authority to be questioned. Satan's american deception is outlined in "Star Trek", the enneagram is a tool of the ennead, the 9 gods of egypt, hence the 9 psychological constructs. The 9 were contacted through PROJECT STAR GATE, the military remote viewing project, the ennead conjoined MK Ultra, and BLUE BIRD, in it's assault on the american people. Stanford Research Institute is a major CIA player. Andrijah Puharick, if I remember right, was the liason to seances conducted with Gene Roddenberry for the enneads creation of STAR TREK, and I think George Lucas was also involved. STAR TREK outlines the american takeover: 1. US enterprise 5 year mission 2. Roman Catholic, Jacob Tiberius Church, james t kirk 3.second in command, spock, Israel, high priest live long and prosper. 4.communications, black african uhura 5.pilots, Russia and asia, chekov and sulu 6.protestant, county doctor, the real mcoy 7.the engineer, scottish scotty. 8.the cling ons, klingons, to Christ, intolerant, unpeaceful, stuck in the old ways. But why they gotta be black? Racism hides a multitude of covert operations. The goal a united federation of planets among foreign gods. Any body want to get high and watch star trek? Man that's hypnotic. COLD READING en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading The church should learn cold reading for 2 reasons: 1.prevent deception, astrology, "word of knowledge", etc. 2. To evaluate truth in experience, the NT does not apply cold reading evangelism. Compare John Macarthur and Kenneth Copeland. PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS in GUERILLA WARFARE en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_Operations_in_Guerrilla_Warfare CLEARLY shows the government is infiltrating the church for military purposes. Crips, Bloods, BGD, KKK, Aryans, on the streets protecting the hood.

[@sketchbook1]

I just googled him, and was surprised that he's actually a Franciscan Catholic priest! He's based in Albuquerque, New Mexico. It's so strange that the Evangelical church is being so influenced by a Franciscan friar!

[@loretomazzola403]

If it wasn't for Richard Rohr I would of left the faith a long time ago!

[@loretomazzola403]

@@sketchbook1 it's because the evangelical narrative is no longer working for many.

[@sketchbook1]

Loreto Mazzola Using a Postmodern Deconstructionist label to easily dismiss an evangelical interpretation of Scripture may be an easy and effective in a way to minimalize or marginalize it, but to call it simply a “narrative” is disingenuous and incorrect, and it ignores the history and scholarship behind not only the Reformation and the Evangelical movement, but also sound Biblical exegesis itself.

[@KD_9494]

I love Marcia❤️ She is such an intelligent woman and explains things so well🙌🏻

[@kevinobie1]

Thank you so much for this! I can't shout it loud enough! I have been preaching against this, Myers-Briggs, et al for years for being cultic, Jungian, etc. I am amazed at how many Christians recklessly just go along with it unknowingly. I remember when the church used to teach about finding your spiritual gifts rather than your Enneagram number, 4-letter Type, etc. Blessings to you both for this presentation!

[@Simply4MEnUS]

Alot of Christian organizations even require personality test before being accepted or hired.

[@kevinobie1]

@@Simply4MEnUS True. I got hired by a church that required it, and that was one of a number of symptoms and problems there that eventually surfaced. I don't work there now and will not pastor at one that does that.

[@christinaszrama5903]

Spiritual gift quizzes are WAY more cheesy and hokey than trying to understand your relationships via the enneagram. 🤣🤣

[@watitduful]

A lot of the churches are ran by initiates in the craft. They’re on assignment.

[@josephsolomon3436]

God bless both of you women for the research you've done and continue to do. Thank you for the information. You rock!

[@SnowyWarrior]

Thank you for the warning sisters. I've had several good friends in the church begin talking about it and taking the tests/using it, and they're not even from progressive churches either. This is a good way to help me talk to them in gentleness about it.

[@christinaszrama5903]

This is nonsense.

[@richardrice1032]

Very thought provoking. I didn't know much about the Enneagram before watching this video. I'm of the Meyers-Briggs generation. A company I worked for used Meyers-Briggs only to help us understand our co-workers, not to judge them, see John 3:17. Quite useful in that context . A former Pastor, and recovering Alcoholic, made the statement in one of his Sermons that "self-help is no help all." Any AA member will understand that one! Briana Lovell nailed it in her Comment with "1 Timothy 4:7". Thanks Briana.

[@christinaszrama5903]

Enneagram is very like meyers-briggs. Super helpful in many of the same ways. BUT also shows how people can GROW and change.

[@andrewcramer9200]

MBTI is also based on Carl Jung's channeled material and is also openly mocked by real mental health experts as gibberish.

[@kotorevan313]

Thanks so much for doing this interview! I wasn't sure what an Enneagram was. The only time I used it was, ironically enough, for an application for a job at a church. They wanted my Enneagram number as part of my application process. 😧

[@GodGirl254]

Yikes I first saw the Enneagram from a Christian here on KZbin right about this year.. And I did the test and I like Alisa can't remember what number I am. Thank you sooo much for this Alisa..

[@bethelshiloh]

Thanks for the info. I heard about it a few years ago in Facebook myself and immediately a red flag went up. We don’t need this to know who we are in Messiah.

[@DentGal83]

Thank you for tackling this Alisa and Marcia! The comment you made at the beginning re: wonderful, God-fearing women & churches are using this... that is true, but there is not only a connection with ‘liberal’ or ‘progressive’ systems, but with churches that promote ‘spiritual formation’ (Dallas Willard, Richard Foster, John Ortberg, Ruth Haley Barton and more). Many godly churches have adopted this philosophy and almost all seminaries now require courses in spiritual formation for accreditation. It’s different than progressive, but there’s overlap.

[@dandehner1409]

Interesting that the pre-video advertisement and the pop-up ads are promoting enneagrams.

[@wererabbit63]

The enneagram is the Christian version of “What’s your sign?”.

[@deeayeveeeyees]

except it's not a christian version 😆

[@wererabbit63]

@@deeayeveeeyees True

[@Rachelle_Creates]

I was just sent this, wow! I’ve been researching the enneagram and I had no idea that it had these origins. I honestly thought it was just a personality thing. I will no longer have anything to do with it!

[@christinaszrama5903]

Why do “origins” matter? Can an unbeliever find nothing true? If a nonChristian discovers a universal scientific principle do we throw it out?

[@catrionaanne4262]

I went to a church where the pastor’s wife and her inner circle really became heavily involved in this and pushed it on the women’s ministry in church. I watched many of these women who acted like they were in charge use their “personality type” as an excuse for abusive behavior towards others. It was very destructive.

[@wlknonsonshine]

Terribly sad

[@darksunnygirl]

They have started enneagram at my church and it boggles my mind. There's been an emphasis placed on bringing in "seekers" instead of preaching the gospel and I know several who have left our church because of it.

[@Ironmikenortonofficial]

Interesting...admittedly, I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I had never heard of the enneagram in Christianity before now. It looks like something I remember seeing in eastern religions. I'm kind of shocked some Christians are embracing it.

[@cindyreinertsen3173]

This is so appreciated! Thank you. I put this into the hands of some involved and they were thankful as well. I will say, as far as personality tests go, I am also not a fan, and agree with others who are saying each person is unique. That being said, there seem to be some patterns that help our understanding of others. Personality Plus, along with Kathleen Edelman’s companion, I Said This You Heard That, has been so helpful in the people skill area and keeping the scripture in the forefront of speaking so as to give grace to the hearers. THAT is scriptural. Thanks again, Alisa and Marcia.

[@fayesherron2862]

Pride is the base reason for acceptance of most false teachings. "Lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes, and the PRIDE of life,...,"something new.

[@carolberubee]

Excellent interview! We've had a few decades of "me-centered" teaching in public education, psychology, etc. (think: the self-esteem movement), so seeing books like _Girl, Wash Your Face_ having an impact on Christianity is no surprise. (Hollis' book is why I wrote a devotional book -- to get our focus off of ourselves.) You have to look high and low to find just a few Christians who have not bought in to the self-esteem mentality to some degree. So, it's no surprise that the Enneagram, which is thoroughly self-centered, is now so popular. Long before the Enneagram entered the Church, I was warning about personality tests and psychology being used in the local churches for the same reasons. It's all self-centered. As Marcia said, we are being conformed to the image of Christ, so what use is a personality test? I would go further and add that all of the treasures of wisdom and knowledge are in God (Colossians 2:3), not self, and not psychology or personality tests.

[@jameymassengale5665]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/qKLLZYuKebuVpcU From this video we see how satan enters the church as a savage wolf giving no quarter to the flock or allowing his authority to be questioned. Satan's american deception is outlined in "Star Trek", the enneagram is a tool of the ennead, the 9 gods of egypt, hence the 9 psychological constructs. The 9 were contacted through PROJECT STAR GATE, the military remote viewing project, the ennead conjoined MK Ultra, and BLUE BIRD, in it's assault on the american people. Stanford Research Institute is a major CIA player. Andrijah Puharick, if I remember right, was the liason to seances conducted with Gene Roddenberry for the enneads creation of STAR TREK, and I think George Lucas was also involved. STAR TREK outlines the american takeover: 1. US enterprise 5 year mission 2. Roman Catholic, Jacob Tiberius Church, james t kirk 3.second in command, spock, Israel, high priest live long and prosper. 4.communications, black african uhura 5.pilots, Russia and asia, chekov and sulu 6.protestant, county doctor, the real mcoy 7.the engineer, scottish scotty. 8.the cling ons, klingons, to Christ, intolerant, unpeaceful, stuck in the old ways. But why they gotta be black? Racism hides a multitude of covert operations. The goal a united federation of planets among foreign gods. Any body want to get high and watch star trek? Man that's hypnotic. COLD READING en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading The church should learn cold reading for 2 reasons: 1.prevent deception, astrology, "word of knowledge", etc. 2. To evaluate truth in experience, the NT does not apply cold reading evangelism. Compare John Macarthur and Kenneth Copeland. PSYCHOLOGICAL OPERATIONS in GUERILLA WARFARE en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_Operations_in_Guerrilla_Warfare CLEARLY shows the government is infiltrating the church for military purposes. Crips, Bloods, BGD, KKK, Aryans, on the streets protecting the hood.

[@christinaszrama5903]

It’s super useful because it helps us understand and relate better to OTHERS.

[@watitduful]

Christina: It seems that way but that’s not the case. Each person is unique and cannot be put into a box. This kind of stuff is designed as a means of mentalism to keep people in spiritual bondage. The very nature of it contradicts Scripture (God’s Word). It’s a way to dismiss the idea of free will as well as a means to control other people and violate their free will. How can I be held accountable for anything if I say that’s it’s my natural personality to be a certain way? That’s in itself contradicts the Bible because in order for someone to receive Jesus they must first profess their belief in Him on their own free will. After, they just repent. How can they repent for sins if they believe these sins are just part of their contrived personality traits as documented by these goofy tests? See what I mean? It’s all bunk.

[@checkMe1011]

The Gospel Of Jesus Christ Is The Only Way ( Sound Doctrine Is Essential) The Living Word (The Bible)🙏

[@lindag1762]

Could you do a video on the prayer Labyrinth , sometime? This video was very interesting.

[@__.Sara.__]

*note to self* Don't do the enneagram. 😅 I've never liked how astrology puts people into boxes and this is so similar. Thank you for doing this video!

[@saradh3385]

Ironically I had an advert for an Eckhardt tolle course before this video...the most new age teacher!

[@GreyHeir]

I understand the love for good pastors, and the respect people give them. We shouldn't just leave a church because they teach something wrong. For example the enneagram. What we should do is have the guts, and spine to talk with them, or anyone who teaches anything wrong, and correct, or call them out. Respect, and unity doesn't mean blindly agreeing with someone. Biblically that isn't even love. That is what God would describe as an enemy. Someone who kisses your cheek instead of someone who rebukes you because they love you.

[@paulrichardson2942]

You had me right up to the point where you said we should focus on God, not ourselves. Why do these two things need to be juxtaposed? Can we live lives focused on God while at the same time recognize "For I am fearfully and wonderfully made."

[@mweber5459]

This found its way into my church as well as contemplative prayer mazes and critical race theory...I left that church.

[@mweber5459]

I Wonder how many marriages have been hurt by this… Imagine being married to someone that the enneagram says you’re not that compatible with… i’m sure it plays with your head.

[@Kathleen253]

I had to leave mine also do to this and contemplative prayer, not to mention the total selling out to psychology.

[@christinaszrama5903]

You’d be interested to know that prayer mazes & the enneagram both date back to the desert fathers (early middle ages Church).

[@nathanlennon5990]

While I am watching this podcast an advertisement for enneagram showed up crazy! Thank you for this talking about this topic!!

[@deannachilton5023]

my goodness thank you for doing this! This is all around my college-age kids & many women I disciple- I never took it bc probably my pride I don’t like “labels” so I’m not familiar but now I’m informed. Like I always tell my kids- read the Bible Satan counting on us not!

[@stevelinscome728]

Crazy thing about the ads on this is for the enneagram. Crazy KZbin ads. Thank you Alisa. 🏍💨☝️

[@lucashoops4601]

I distrust religious discussions that include "real Christians", the real gospel, etc etc. Once upon a time that was debatable, theologists presented different ways of interpretating the teachings. Now it is presented as if it were resolved, finished, corrected.

[@btopines9922]

Great podcast. I am skeptical about personality assessments in general, but this gave me a lot to think about. This is something that I haven't encountered in my local church. The first I remember hearing about it was in Andy Gullahorn's "Self-Awareness" song... which I assumed to be him making fun of the Enneagram and people who obsess over this kind of thing. Then I noticed that he was interviewed on Ian Cron's podcast.

[@RuslanKD]

This interview inspired me to reach out to Ian Morgan Croc for an interview to get a different perspective on this. his origin and history of the enneagram is completely OPPOSITE of what's being discussed here. I've read a good chunk of "The Road Back To You" and it's filled with scripture, John Calvin quotes and seems to be coloring within the lines of Biblical orthodoxy. He repeatedly says don't talk the enneagram too literal and he sees it as a road to get closer to God... ultimately through growing in self awareness, empathy and seeing your own blind spots/motivations.

[@christyjo726]

Did you read Self to lose self to find by Marilyn Vancil? Heard it's more biblically grounded.

[@robertpreisser3547]

This requires prayer and discernment. Remember, no one introducing any destructive heresy into Churches has EVER said “this is a heresy.” They will always couch it in innocent, Biblical sounding phrases and with what seems like the purest of motives. However, it takes a bit of critical thinking skills as well to recognize when something just doesn’t really make sense. The way to grow closer to God is the learn all we can about GOD. Not ourselves. That doesn’t ever cause us to grow closer to God. When we DO learn more about God, we naturally will learn more about our own shortcomings, and will naturally grow in love for those other people God loves. But that never happens by focusing on ourselves. To give an illustration, the Secret Service is charged with investigating counterfeiting schemes. How do they train their experts? By studying counterfeit currency? No. By studying the real thing, getting to know it so well that it becomes easy to spot a counterfeit bill. Our Christian walk is really supposed to work the same way. It is not a pick-ourselves-up-by-our-own-bootstraps, willing ourselves to change and grow more like God. That is doomed to fail. We cannot ever change ourselves, and in reality, we are only too good at finding ways to excuse our mistakes and failures we don’t forgive or excuse in other people. We judge ourselves by our motive, others by their actions. When we focus on ourselves in some attempt to grow closer to God, we will only tend to become self-centered and self-focused.

[@Opie2099]

KZbin decided that because I was watching this video to see what the Enneagram is ( hadn't ever heard of it) that I needed an add in the middle of your video asking if I was an Enneagram 1 and trying to sell me on finding my Enneagram type. lol

[@MichellePatire]

I am commenting with the hope that more Christians come across the video by engaging... I pray God opens other people's eyes to this deception. I like that you girls mention it points to self rather than God. It has been so hard to see how popular this has gotten in the church. I'm glad you guys are bringing light to it.

[@kristyleavitt8007]

This was super helpful! Thank you! Prior to listening to this episode, I was a fan of the enneagram and found it helpful in better understanding myself and my husband, but now I’m stepping away from it. Thanks for clearly outlining the history of the enneagram and why it’s problematic for believers 💛

[@christinaszrama5903]

Why? If it’s helpful, praise the Lord. Use what He created for your good & His glory.

[@christinaszrama5903]

Why is the history at all a factor in whether or not something is useful? Christians in the NT were encouraged to find the freedom to eat meat whose origin was in demonic-worship ceremonies, that prayer & thanksgiving actually redeeemed the meat & made it holy. All things come from God- they are His. Even rhe enneagram.

[@genab1836]

Alisa, I respect your honesty. I think I took the test, too. But I don’t remember what number I was. PTL And, thank you for tenderly mentioning our friends and sisters in Christ that have been very much into this “Trojan horse”. I have shared this link.

[@christinaszrama5903]

I’m a 1 wing 2. Love Jesus, love the enneagram. No trojans.

[@DSBac]

This is the first time I've heard of this thing. I guess I've been fortunate that no church I've ever attended or anyone I know has ever mentioned it. If it ever comes up, I'm glad I've heard more about its origins thanks to this podcast.

[@faithmac3442]

Thank you for this warning!

[@stephenryan7698]

I have never heard of this [ U.K ] but I do know this the vast Majority of Christians I have met over 40 years have not read the whole Bible only small sections. I read it as an atheist to disprove it, but I believed the Bible very early on. It was three years before I went into a Church I didn't know any other Christians. I am so glad no one but God taught me and I have never doubted for 1 second. GOD BLESS ALL.

[@Teal_Seal]

I had a very close friend who became obsessed with this and turned me on to it. I thought it was helpful for not taking others... quirks... so personally. For remembering we’re all gifted differently, that traits can be strengths and weaknesses - in myself and others. It had its good points, and offered a sort of shorthand for describing myself and others. But after awhile, my friend of 10+ years started using it to discount my feelings and delegitimize my input. “You’re feeling that way because you’re a 4” or “that’s your 7 talking”. It felt like the equivalent of someone asking, “Are you on your period?” Then she’d turn around and use it to excuse someone else’s bad behavior saying, “Well of course he did that. He can’t help it. He’s a 1.” 🤦🏻‍♀️ Logical discussions become impossible. EVERYTHING was filtered through the enneagram. It got to the point where if I said black, she said white. It ruined a cherished friendship. 💔

[@christinaszrama5903]

That’s not the fault of the enneagram. That’s a friend bejng rude. enneagram materials & advocates say REPEATEDLY not to do that.

[@watitduful]

Prime example of what it’s designed to be used for. Psychological control/mentalism.

[@Teal_Seal]

@@christinaszrama5903 To be fair, I didn’t fall into that. So ok. But why do you think materials and advocates REPEATEDLY warn against it?

[@BgirlPeacock]

When my church recommends something, I'm the type to jump right in. Several years back, The Road Back to You was recommended only to the highest leaders at my church, and a number of them told me that it was good and that I may find it "hard to read and understand." I was a bit offended and looked into buying the book. Wasn't successful living outside of the US, then I forgot about it until I read about my Christian college having invited Ian C. to speak at an event. Was bummed I couldn't even attend virtually and was reminded again about the book. Just last year I looked into ordering the book again online and no luck! Having listened to this post, I am thankful that I couldn't get my hands on the book all these years, and such a needed reminder to be prayerfully seeking re: what my church, pastors, and others may "recommend". Thank you.

[@Irene77545]

I really fell into the enneagram because it sounded so Christian! I was the "Peacemaker"! Yah even Jesus speaks abt it!! But no ppl that's not wat it is!!! Pls stay away from this deception... I went vry deep into it and defined my life by it rather than The Bible which is God's given standard! We become our Standard ( god) rather than the Righteous Judge(God) himself!!!

[@moomin8251]

Everything has got so much worse since this video was made, false teaching seems to be everywhere. My (recently former) church is just starting the Enneagram, they're already into 'candlelit contemplative prayer', sitting in silence waiting for a voice to speak... As long as I've been saved, over 40 years, I've never seen anyone give up a false doctrine after they've been shown the truth. People don't want to know, they love their 'experiences'. It's very disheartening.

[@begelston]

Alisa, I love your channel and feel that it is timely and God inspired given all that is happening. But I was impressed by the irony of you talking about the ability for anyone to be deceived and correctly citing Galatians where Peter is sucked into the Judaizers circumcision requirement. But then, you go on to say "Peter, the Rock that Jesus built His church upon". Are you stating this as your doctrinal stance? Are you a Catholic? Please clarify this point, it is important as it hints at support for papal succession and Roman Catholic authority.

[@TheExastrologer]

Alisa is not Catholic. I think she meant that Peter's confession of who Christ is is what the church is built on, just slip of words. It's hard to be sure you are saying the words you want to say sometimes on video. You may think you said something right and when you hear it later, it's face-palm!

[@tomfoley1818]

@@TheExastrologer maybe it would be wise for the lady who misspoke concerning whom the church is built on to comment, thank you.

[@begelston]

@@tomfoley1818 Yes, I'd really like to know where she's coming from. I would never have stated this the way she did by accident. Alisa, are you there?

[@lindajohnson4204]

I heard that, too, and debated whether to say anything about it! This is the briefest explanation I could come up with: Jesus called Simon bar Jona, "Petros", and He said that upon this rock, "Petra", He would build His church. I believe that Petros is masculine and Petra is feminine, but it has been awhile since I read about it. If Jesus meant that Peter, _Petros,_ was the rock upon which He would build His church, why refer to him as _Petra?_ It seems obvious that He meant "rock" in a different sense than _Petros,_ or He wouldn't have changed it to _Petra._ What I was told was that _Petros_ means a pebble or small stone, like you hold in your hand and throw, and that _Petra_ was a big stone, like a stone ledge, or the bedrock. As a feminine, it would probably be the "motherlode" or "mother rock", from which the little, "Petros" stones come.

[@henriettehofsink8003]

In the ennogram if it says I'm aggressive means I'm stressed, if I'm in withdrawal means I'm depressed if I'm dependent means I look to others and not God. Simple really it shoukd point us to our flaws that need to be healed by Jesus

[@agustaharting6485]

I was coming against this in a Baptist Church in Indianapolis in 1990s! Can’t believe it’s growing again. Thanks all of you discernment and exposing spiritual deception! Look forward to reading Montenegro and Veinot’s book!

[@AB-ComeLordJesus]

I have taken the Meyers-Briggs personality test and found them to be very intriguing because they "seem" to describe me as a person. Then I came across this video, I thought to ignore it but I felt challenged by the Holy Spirit to humble myself and listen. Knowing that fallen angels and demons have studied man's patterns for thousands of years, they are able to craft deceptive snares we find unsuspecting. Thankful for God always revealing truth to His children.

[@billiehanson3686]

I am sure you have heard of Dr. Roseria Butterfield. It would be neat to have her as a guest

[@jsea3828]

OH I sooooo agree! Dr. Butterfield has an incredible testimony and is a wonderful speaker!

[@UnashamedJesuslover]

I’ve always gotten the creeps about this subject. So many people I know are obsessed with the enneagram or at the very least use it to focus too much on self and those around them.

[@JohnSmith-zo6ir]

My question is why the heck are they even doing personality tests at church. Did Jesus do it ... No... So stop.

[@ih82r8]

Psychology in all its unredeemed nature has a back door entrance to the church, unfortunately. When we stop focusing on God's word and instead try to make sermons about life application or making sense of a fallen world, we do ourselves a great disservice.

[@JohnSmith-zo6ir]

@@ih82r8 👍👏👏👏

[@darlenegerber4585]

Thank you, I had a mentor yrs ago who used this book, and have had struggled with for years now. 🔥🕊

[@Ashbash90]

As I watch this, I wanted to remind that we cannot be “true Christians and doctrinally sound” as we sit at the table of demons and doing things that are stemming from new age and esoteric practices, automatic writing, etc... I understand what the host meant but in the same token it can be misleading especially for those who are still in this world. In all, very interesting video and understanding this to be more vigilant to talk to others. Thank you!

[@christinalafferty6073]

This was so helpful for me! I heard you mention the Enneagram in another episode and was like "well how can that possibly be a Trojan horse?" This made a ton of sense! Thank you for your work in fighting for truth!

[@christinaszrama5903]

so far I’ve been using the enneagram for years... no soldiers have popped out. I’m still a Christian. Still love God & love others. Still believe the Bible is inspired & that men are men & that abortion is wrong.

[@christinalafferty6073]

@@christinaszrama5903 For sure, I don't believe that using the enneagram makes anyone less of a Christian. I have a friend who's used it and same as you, she's still completely solid in her beliefs. Tbh I can't remember what was said in this video since I commented on it a year ago. But it's probably similar to yoga or other practices where we all have to go with our own convictions on it. I just do know that whatever was said in this video made sense to me at the time lol I feel like it's possible that the point in some of these videos is that these things can be dangerous to those who are not solid in their faith or who are easily swayed. I know I can be swayed easily by certain opinions and whatnot, so I stay away from certain things. Maybe it's the same with things related to the enneagram.