From the Occult to the Church: How the Enneagram Became Part of Christian Culture

Marcia Montenegro traces the history of the Enneagram from its roots in the occult to its influence in progressivism, Evangelicalism, and Catholicism.
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[@LilyOlea777]

My daughter had dinner with a pastor and his wife and she recommended the enneagram to my daughter. I sent her this video. I’ve warned her, but she thinks I’m being silly. So many Christians are following this and it’s disturbing. Why didn’t the pastor’s wife recommend reading the Bible and following the teachings of Jesus?

[@seanrathmakedisciples1508]

Well your daughter was blessed to not be trapped in this cult. This pastor needs to repent from this evil. I’ve subscribed to your KZbin channel and I now have started a youtube channel with 31 videos to date on salvation and healing and breaking bread and baptism. Kindly subscribe to my youtube channel and watch and share the videos in Jesus name forevermore

[@seanrathmakedisciples1508]

@MiiSpot Amen. We have to be vigilant at all times. I’ve subscribed to your KZbin channel and and I now have started a youtube channel with 31 videos to date Kindly subscribe and share and watch videos in Jesus name

[@johnwoodward1873]

My son was a pastor of a church in Kansas City till a few months ago and his wife got involved with this and she said it changed her life, because I have cast doubt on it she has become distant and the video I sent that showing its origin and doctrine hasn't been watched either. Blind blind blind

[@LilyOlea777]

@@johnwoodward1873 Doreen Virtue who came out of New Age did a whole video about it too and a pastor’s wife is being interviewed about it. It might help to send it to her. The New Age is invading Christ’s church.

[@meganbrown324]

I had virtually the same thing happen to me. Pastors wife is whole heartedly into the enneagram and he won’t allow the topic to even be discussed. Just wants to defend his wife.

[@lionoffireministries]

The occult is so appealing to people because it allows them to be both *spiritual AND selfish* Jesus saves ✝️😊🙏🔥

[@wendyleeconnelly2939]

For anyone who wants to be a faithful Christian? Try this: Matthew 19:21 Amplified Bible: Jesus answered him, “If you wish to be perfect [that is, have spiritual maturity that accompanies godly character with no moral/ethical deficiencies], go and sell what you have and give [the money] to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me [becoming My disciple, believing and trusting in Me and walking the same path of life that I walk].”

[@LilyOlea777]

Beautifully said. That’s exactly the lure. So much self focus.

[@randyosgood4729]

Pride is the great soul killer. The occult directs its followers to worship the most important person in their lives -- themselves. Christianity calls on its adherents to be devoted to God and others, NOT themselves.

[@dingotomtom]

@@randyosgood4729 Amen! Well said!

[@brandonbarker8640]

@Rejoicing In Hope Seriously?!, she did a video addressing her logo just go and watch it and stop being a “heretic hunter” against someone who is trying to shed light on these very things.

[@jennamarielovesjesus12]

This is the 3rd time I’m seeing Marsha on KZbin speaking on the enneagram. Praise GOD. First on Doreen Virtue channel/ melissa Dougherty and now Alisa Childers. Amen 🙏🏼

[@danielchimento9757]

I definitely feel we need to stop using the term “progressive Christianity” when so much of the movement is not rooted in scripture.

[@jdbishop2697]

It is all rooted in New Age and Zionism.

[@jeanwanchen1]

Agreed. "Progressive Christianity", might as well call it lies of Satan.

[@louiseleite3866]

Counterfeit Christianity.

[@TheMidnightModder]

Yeah, I don't even think many of these people deserve to be called Christians. They're closer to anti-Christs and Christians.

[@Serpents_and_Doves]

It's progressive pagan occultism.

[@barbarahawkins7864]

If you are a Christian, why would you want to trust something that was “channeled” by a strange spirit? We are told in the Bible to “test the spirits”... if we don’t trust God in His Word, why call ourselves “Christian?” 🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@katiestevenson8920]

I agree Barbara but when I was first told about it it was explained to me as a personality test based on ancient Christian ideas from the Bible! This is all a complete fabrication that was added in by the creator of the 9 types to make it seem more credible. That is why so many Christians are buying into it. I was one of them.

[@barbarahawkins7864]

@@katiestevenson8920 I understand! The Christian counseling center I was going to for help sent out a very upbeat flyer saying they were using another tool that “will help you in all your relationships “... My thoughts: If we need it, as Christians, God has a legitimate way to provide it... no need to seek advice from a “channeled” source ( By the way, when I tactfully brought up the history of the enneagram ( channeled source, etc), and my concerns about it being used in a Christian counseling setting, I was politely told by the director that “we all have different views.” I noticed the posted on their New Year’s newsletter about what an awesome tool this is. 😢🙏🏻🙏🏻

[@barbs1298]

@ Barbara Hawkins Because much of the church today is so influenced by the culture of the world they have lost the truth. They seek to draw people in w/all kinds of gimmickry to keep the young generation coming & to keep their #'s up & the offering flowing.

[@limenlux8145]

How do you KNOW it is channeled by a "strange spirit"?

[@richardhill4938]

@@limenlux8145 Show me in the Bible where Metatron inspired the prophets and apostles

[@Deeeaah]

A Christian girl I was following closely on YT is into this and so I checked it out... but towards the end of the year it started feeling off to me so I removed it from my IG. I never told anyone to stop though, cause I didn't know why it was bad, so thanks so much for this video! I'll be sure to share it!

[@hellohannahjennings]

Wow, this was so helpful and convicting for me. I had no idea how imbedded the enneagram is in New Ageism, which is really my own fault for not doing proper vetting before accepting it as a “useful tool.” Thank you for this, Alisa. It reinforced for me the absolute necessity of researching what something is rooted in before opening myself up to it.

[@marknrobin1744]

Me too!!

[@estebanhenriquez3491]

...and just like that, I am heading back to the store and returning the copy I just bought! I really wasn't aware of it's occult origins. I took it for what it was advertised as from a podcast, a help book to yourself.

[@chukham]

I have never heard of this "enneagram". I have not seen it in any of my local churches. Good to know, thanks!

[@Sarah_Inspired7]

It’s all over Instagram. Sadie Robertson and those her age group are into it. Not sure if Lauren Daigle is also, but wouldn’t doubt it.

[@omnientertainers]

That’s good! It’s huge here and getting bigger in Florida

[@Worldviewcafe]

You need to spend more time on amazon! LOL

[@HickoryDickory86]

Please be on the lookout, because it's spreading far and wide throughout Christianity, and spreading fast. Not surprising, seeing as it's fueled by hellfire.

[@TrueSaint916]

I also have never seen nor heard of it. I appreciate that people are reacting to false doctrine swiftly, publicly, and graciously. Keep fighting, Mrs. Childers!

[@lethabor]

I'm horrified because I've taken the test and shared it amongst friends. I appreciate you sharing!

[@yvettestromsodt306]

I did too! Now we know! Praise God!!! I’m sending this video to my family cause they took the test too & I mean we’re all Christians!!🤦🏻‍♀️The enemy is the deceiver!!! God bless her for telling us the truth & that God has helped us to see it!

[@rebelgyrlj4264]

The same here I was on a Focus on the Family marriage cruise with my husband and we did the test. The two speakers had a book I wanted but it was sold out( I’m thanking God) which only means I wasn’t supposed to bring this into my house.. heading over to unsubscribe from their emails and also send Focus on The Family this video so that they may reconsider hosting this Couple who’s introducing the enneagram systems to 100’s of married couples.

[@asparrow5505]

We've all done something. That's why we're on this walk.

[@patriothippie5881]

@@rebelgyrlj4264 wait what ? Focus on the Family endorsed the enneagram on their cruises ? Please explain in a little further detail

[@rebelgyrlj4264]

@@patriothippie5881 yes... they had multiple sessions... and the couple even had a book called “Becoming Us”( that sold out on the cruise) that highlighted how they used the Enneagram system.. within your marriage they also promoted if people were interested in becoming coaches like them.. I digress.. If you want further info you can visit their website www.yourenneagramcoach.com Also the wife Beth who is the main speaker, her husband works alongside her but she’s the main speaker.. lastly I did check to see if Focus on the Family was going to have them back for this past marriage cruise though it was virtual.. they weren’t on the line up.. but I saw that they were doing yoga.... so I have no idea who’s in charge of programming over there but it seems to falling into a trap of some many things anti-Christ.

[@TheJesusNerd40]

Thanks for your work in this area, Marcia. Good interview, Alisa.

[@claudiawangfitness]

When I was away at a Discipleship Training Program in Kansas City, Missouri (I am originally from Ontario, Canada), and they were actually endorsing this and encouraging it. At first I didn't even think anything of it as I was still a new christian, and the more I looked into it and went to trusted Christian people online, I started realizing how demonically dangerous this is. I came right out of witchcraft and new age; casting spells and Law of Attraction, etc also, and praise the Lord for saving me by His mercy and grace from this satanic playground... I pray God continues to open people's eyes to this nonsense.

[@donpiano.684]

😂😂😂😂

[@rickmills3542]

Intelligent and well spoken interview with Ms. Montenegro. I appreciate your insight. Thank you for sharing this, it's something that must be seen by Pastors, staff and churches.

[@jennprescott2757]

Loving these short clips! So great when I am quickly doing dishes.

[@christinamckinney6346]

Thank you so much for speaking out about this!!

[@joshsamd1]

I belong to a theologically conservative, orthodox, Bible-exulting evangelical church. Recently, I participated in an intensive discipleship program at my church (we study hermeneutics, doctrine, theology - plus lots of relational/emotional-spiritual work). A section of the course actually involved learning the enneagram and discovering our enneagram type. We even read portions of a book called The Sacred Enneagram. I should note that the enneagram was presented as something that could be a “helpful tool” and the teaching pastors made it clear that the enneagram shouldn’t be taken as any kind of worldview or held with any authority - but it’s still worrisome given what you both laid out in this video. My church is so very committed to Biblical faithfulness and we describe ourselves as unabashedly biblical, upholding the historic doctrines of Christianity and proclaiming the gospel of Jesus. All of this is to say if the Enneagram can seep into my church it can infiltrate anywhere!

[@carolberubee]

Wow, that's alarming. I think you've discovered a chink in the armor when you say that your church is "so very committed to Biblical faithfulness," yet they think something is beneficial for "soul work" that is outside of Christ and His Word. I'm not sure how they can say that the Enneagram "shouldn't be taken as any kind of worldview" when it is definitely rooted in the worldview that man is not sinful but only needs to shed the junk that life has piled on him on his journey to finding his true and good authentic self.

[@limenlux8145]

You overturn all of the credibility of your Church for two women on YT who have NEVER defended their perspective against the other side in a live debate?

[@926paaja]

Show the video to your pastors and leaders and everyone who went through the course. Repent. Satan is not a game . He doesn't care how serioulsy we take things of the occult .. a little leven. Measure everything that comes from the pulpit and leadership by the word. Test all things test all spirits. God is faithful to forgive but we have to do something with truth when we receive it.

[@foundationsofsapphiresbysa151]

The enneagram is demonic. It uses other spirits besides the Holy Spirit to find out what your sons are and it came from a non Christian man. Beyond that, the commenter wasn’t renouncing everything in his church but giving an example of how subtle Satan can be.

[@TheMidnightModder]

Yup. That's what Satan does. Satan deceived Adam and Eve *even when* they were in the Garden and in the direct presence of God. How much more easily can we be mislead?

[@lm6568]

Before I was saved I dabbled heavily in the occult and when I saw the enneagram come to my church my spirit was so disturbed and recognized the demonic nature. I told my pastor and he pretty much said it’s been used by the church for a while and it’s a way for us to identify our sins. But the people in church use it as a personality assessment and I don’t think they see it as recognizing sin. Idk i still feel it’s demonic and has no place in the church.

[@HickoryDickory86]

It is quite literally from the occult, and the enneatypes are admitted, by the guy who created them, to have been channelled, via a "higher source," through automatic writing. It is demonic and has no place in a church or among Christians at all. I know there are many who purport that it has helped them or others, but my only question is this: Do you honestly believe that demons have your best interest in mind? Rest assured that whatever "good" has come about is a deception meant only to hook and lure you. As the Apostle Paul warned the Corinthians, regarding false apostles who had infiltrated and devastated their church: "And no wonder, for Satan himself disguises himself as an angel of light. Therefore it is not a great thing if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds" (2 Corinthians 11:14-15). And the Apostle John likewise warned: "Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to determine if they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world" (1 John 4:1).

[@albertpost9776]

What is wrong with using the Enneagram as a personality assessment especially if it can be used to help you to identify and confess unconfessed sin that you were ignorant of. Having said this I agree that the enneagram must not take center stage. It must always be used as a secondary tool to aid our Christian walk in life and not as a primary tool or a substitute or in place of the cental teaching of Jesus salvific teaching. As long as the enneagram is taken captive and made subservient to Jesus Christ it will be free from any demonic influence or usage. Likewise anything that replaces the gospel teaching no matter how good, will turn out to be demonic or used for demonic purposes.

[@lm6568]

@@albertpost9776the problem is that same argument can be made for astrology or numerology. They are all highly accurate personality assessments. So why can’t the church use astrology if Christ still has supremacy? Well because it’s not information that God wants us to have or use. If he truly created man into 9 different types or 12 different zodiacs, I think he would have outlined that in scripture. Instead, the ennegream, astrology, numerology, etc comes straight from someone who wrote it while in communication with demons. And as we know, demons seek to confuse and destroy.

[@albertpost9776]

@@lm6568 Astrology [AS] and numerology [NU] is only on the same level as the enneagram [EN] when it comes to usefulness due to its accuracy. Usefulness or accuracy is the criteria people use for using a system which is why the usefulness of making decisions by flipping a coin is limited to breaking an indecision between 2 equally valid options. With usefulness we also have to test for truthfulness before Christians can use it. As far as truthfulness is concerned the EN is much more truthful than AS or NU. Since Jesus is the way the truth and the life anything that has any truth to it will eventually find its way to Jesus and bow to His Lordship. First we need to realize that not everything is in Scripture. There is nothing in Scripture about electricity or electronics. Scripture only reveals what is important for salvation and what needs to be avoided. There are several passages in the Bible warning against AS but none warning against EN or personality types. Seeing that we are warned of a future Antichrist unknown to the Biblical Writers but we are not warned of EN silences any critique claiming that the EN was unknown at the time of the Bible. God would have warned against the EN if like the Antichrist it was truly demonic. Both AS and NU is determined by the date of your birth and is cyclical in nature i.e. there are good, bad and better days to take action or make a certain important decision. This makes it deterministic and fateful leaving no room for free choice unless you accept the occult doctrine of reincarnation which opposes belief in Jesus Messiahship and salvific death. Every AS will tell you to be aware of Mercury retrograde when you are more accident prone and make less good decisions. Also AS looks at your planetary signs and houses and advise you to take or not take certain actions on certain days depending on in which house a certain planet is. The same goes for NU where the days that add to your birth number is more favorable than other days in conflict with your birth number. Both AS and NU thus requires constantly looking at the planetary signs or numbers to determine your action and decision making. The EN personality type is very different than AS or NU since it is discovered and is stable i.e. you discover your EN type. It is not predetermined. Your EN personality type is created by you when as a child before the age of reason you experience a core wound when you realize you are living in a fallen, broken sin filled world very different from the harmonious, loving world of the Heart of God the Father that you came forth from when you were conceived in your mother's womb. Then depending on your environment and circumstances you create certain coping mechanisms to adapt to this fallen world. This coping and adaptation is what creates your personality type. Since humans are finite creatures there are only a certain number of ways you can act to your environment using certain coping mechanisms. The EN has categorized these basic mechanisms into 9 basic types. So we see it is humans and not God who created the personality types. Since we are talking of personality types we are talking about stable permanent behavior patterns you do all the time every moment, every second of every day. So you are not constantly trying to look for favorable days to make important decisions or take certain actions. The result of the EN type is is that if you have a perfectionistic personality type you continuously get angry at others, yourself and the world when things don't turn our perfectly. Here you get angry over the fact that you have a tendency to get angry. If you are the lazy type you are too lazy to do anything about it. If you are a happy go lucky carefree person who can't get serious enough to do a task you will continue to be carefree and not take it serious that you are not serious enough. Here you are forced to ask Jesus for help. The angry type need God's grace to get peace of mind to stop being angry. The lazy type needs God's grace to get motivated and energized to stop being lazy. The care free person needs God's grace to get the necessary understanding and seriousness of mind to get serious enough to do a task. So here we see that correct knowledge of your EN personality type leads to humility and trust in Jesus' mercy and goodness whereas correct knowledge of your AS or NU type leads you to take matters in your own hands and further away from Jesus. Here we see the EN having enough truth to bow to the Lordship of Jesus while AS or NU does not bow to the Lordship of Jesus. This is the reason why we can use Enneagram Personality types but not Astrology or Numerology.

[@lm6568]

@@albertpost9776 I see what you mean and I appreciate the thoughtfulness you put into this reply! This is similar to the explanation that my pastor gave me, that EN is not necessarily a pre-determined spiritual practice, but instead, a tool Christians can use to identify their most prominent sins and bring them before God. But with all due respect, I still have to disagree. Firstly, I'd like to address that the EN cannot be placed in the same category as scientific knowledge, like electricity, that is not founded in the bible. It is not knowledge that is scientifically derived or tested, it is knowledge given by a demonic spirit to a man. Secondly, there is no sin that can be revealed to us through the EN that the Holy Spirit cannot reveal Himself. Furthermore, it runs the risk of someone identifying too strongly with their EN number. They may make excuses for themselves by saying "well I'm an 8 so I'm controlling" or they may use it to compartmentalize their brothers and sisters to say "oh well he's a 5 so that's why he's like this." I know that this isn't the way it's supposed to be utilized under your definition, but that's the result of giving something with the potentiality of sin to sinners. Lastly, if we are supposed to die to ourselves and be more like Christ, I do not believe it's necessary to study one's broken self. Instead, I think it is much more productive to avert our gaze to the majesty and perfection of Christ. "Humility is nothing but the disappearance of self in the vision that God is all." -Andrew Murray

[@magistersteveperkins]

This is HUGE in most of the evangelical churches in our area.

[@barbs1298]

Very sad that most christians in evangelical America buy into this w/no knowledge of its roots.

[@Hopeapotheke]

I don’t understand this. Does no one take time to search out things before they preach them to people?!

[@TrueSaint916]

@@Hopeapotheke Sadly, most people do not study origins of ideas in general. For example, when I ask people about the origins of the scriptures, they are almost completely ignorant as to how we got the Bible's current canon. Additionally, most people are ignorant of basic political ideologies, including the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence.

[@andrewcramer9200]

@@barbs1298 The roots are only part of the problem. At the end of the day, the system itself has never even proven to be as helpful as the people trying to make money on books and seminars claim.

[@BreadofLifeChannel]

Very helpful! Thanks for this information!

[@paulafields3711]

What I knew of this symbol from more than 40 years ago was that it was an occultic symbol, and never pursued it further. How subtle Satan is and how vigilant God's people must be in pursuing the Truth giver.

[@lionoffireministries]

✝️ The Gospel of Jesus Christ is *the only message in the world* that has the power to transform hearts 💔-> ❤️ By God’s grace 🙏 And for God’s glory 👆🏼

[@wendyleeconnelly2939]

For anyone who wants to be a faithful Christian? Try this: Matthew 19:21 Amplified Bible: Jesus answered him, “If you wish to be perfect [that is, have spiritual maturity that accompanies godly character with no moral/ethical deficiencies], go and sell what you have and give [the money] to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me [becoming My disciple, believing and trusting in Me and walking the same path of life that I walk].” When people do this, it is the biggest transformation of all.

[@mo1240]

The more we dwell on what's within us, the less we rely on the Lord's finished (dearly paid for) work to make us new. If anyone is in Christ Jesus = a NEW creature, so items like this are useless. Like saying we need a picture of a tree when the Lord provided the real tree for us.

[@kevinmccubbin2385]

Great show as usual.

[@davidbermudez7704]

Two wonderful, knowledgeable and amazing sisters in Christ

[@roxannemitchell449]

WOW ! Thank you for sharing this

[@songsgardensbyjenniferlynn3242]

I've had so much push back from my Christian friends who've had "positive" experiences with the enneagram--but I believe the more videos posted, the more articles published, the more we talk about it for what it really is, the better chance we have of helping people out of this deception. Thanks Alisa and Marcia! Also, I just finished Another Gospel today!!! You all need to read this!

[@dingotomtom]

I just ordered the book "Another Gospel" about an hour ago. It will be here on Friday and i cant wait to read it!! Alisa Childers has helped my faith and christian walk on so many levels. I have a feeling that the book is great and will be very helpful and encouraging. I ordered a copy for a lady that i work with too. I hope she reads it because she has young daughters starting college and i feel like this book could help her guide them toward more biblical ways of thinking.

[@amylynnhunt55]

Thank you so much for taking on this topic! I wept listening to one of my favourite authors who has a podcast interview a man who was *obsessed with Enneagram*. I was certain he would say something about this being a bad idea... never did. The man who was interviewed has a whole "ministry" based on " the sacred Ennegram". What? Call it "sacred" and it's better? if you must take a personality test online, do a silly one and walk away. This is not of God. The Bible is complete! We are not missing some great thing that'll make your life better! It's Adam and Eve thinking God was keeping something good from them all over again! Spirit guides. Feels like the late 1980s again for me and of course it's all very old. What is the guest's name? How wonderful that she got out of this, and can tell us about that experience. God will keep no good thing from us. This is not a good thing. I think I need to pray about what to write, and write to the author who has this guy on. Is there more of this interview?

[@annalynn9325]

Or maybe something like the OCEAN inventory, which has research validation, and doesn’t reduce anyone to a “type” (almost like substitute astrology) but does talk about human personality in terms of Openness, Conscientiousness, Extraversion, Agreeableness, and Neuroticism. But honestly so much of what comes out of psychology in general should be handled with care

[@arelifernandez748]

As always great work, would love to meet you one day.

[@esterlyn7604]

There was a different cult that got called out in my former church by the pastor. When I googled them years ago, they cited an “angel” named Metatron as where the “revelation” came from! 😱 I never forgot because I thought it sounded like a Transformer.

[@Jessica_Jones]

That's what I thought when she said the name too!! So crazy learning all that she shared!

[@lionoffireministries]

I was 5 years of chronic illness! I was Semi Housebound, lost my health, job, finances and my fiance left me. I couldn't even look at electronic screen for 5 minutes, or hold a 10-minute conversation. But God did an amazing work. And if he can do this, he can do it in you too. 👍🏼 I now have a Christian Channel where I encourage people and show them what God did in my life and that there is hope for you also. ✝️🔥🙂 *Keep believing even when it's hard* 🙏❤️🔥👆🏼 *All things are possible with God*

[@wendyleeconnelly2939]

For anyone who wants to be a faithful Christian? Try this: Matthew 19:21 Amplified Bible: Jesus answered him, “If you wish to be perfect [that is, have spiritual maturity that accompanies godly character with no moral/ethical deficiencies], go and sell what you have and give [the money] to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me [becoming My disciple, believing and trusting in Me and walking the same path of life that I walk].”

[@puzzletherapy4u]

Oh my stars!!!! The commercial I got was for using the enneagram!!!

[@johoggmusic]

I was introduced to the enneagram in 2019 via a small group in an NAR church. My husband and I both went. We were the only people asking the question “where do these types come from? Who thought up the questionnaire to assess your type? “. We were recommended the Richard Rohr resources 🙄. Nobody involved in promoting the enneagram seemed to know anything about its true origins. It was said to be “ancient” and had been used in Jesuit circles. Another example of New Age thinking infiltrating the church. Thankyou Marcia for exposing this dangerous deception. And Thankyou for your book. Essential reading for anyone being introduced to this gnostic garbage.

[@charlesperigord1599]

The enneagram of personality was invented by the late Oscar Ichazo in the 20th century, even if the enneagram symbol is much older. The enneagram of personality classifies personalities into 9 personality types. Interestingly, it appears that Ichazo derived the types from the Visudhimagha, a Buddhist book by a monk named Bhadantacariya Buddhaghosa. Yet the Visudhimagha has only 8 types, not 9. It appears that types 2 and 3 in Ichazo's system were derived from the same type in the Visudhimagha. The purpose of the Visudhimagha was to help Buddhist spiritual teachers classify beginners in order to figure out what kind of living conditions and treatment would be best for their spiritual development. In general the fear (5-6-7) and appetite types (8-9-1) should be given clean, warm living quarters and pleasant treatment, while the image types (2-3-4) should be given unpleasant living quarters and treatment. The Visuddhimaga has been translated into English but may be hard to find now. It is very matter of fact in tone and not at all mystical.

[@NewCreationInChrist896]

Don’t be distracted, seek God’s will daily. Mark 16:15 Romans 10:9-15📣

[@dwest42163]

Amen, This is one of the many distracts of this age to turn our attention away from truth, politics, social justice, conservatism, liberalism, self help trends. The answer is always going to be more Jesus, More Jesus learning of His spending time with Him, Loving Him, denying self and obeying Him and abiding in Him by the help of the Holy Spirit.

[@PoetiqueMs]

I bought the Enneagram Secret for both my best friend and my Daughter in law but I was shocked that neither one wants to listen. I just pray that their eyes are opened.

[@deanimals]

They did this book and brought in a "specialist" at my women's church retreat and I just got a bad feeling from it. It seemed way too new aged and not of God for me. I got rid of the book they gave us and haven't really participated in the women's group much since then. Before every retreat or every women's event since then, I find out fully what are they talking about, what book are they covering and see how I feel based off what I'm told. I learned a long time ago to trust that small voice inside and if it isn't of God and isn't good I steer clear. It hasn't seemed to make it into the rest of the my church or if it has, no one has said one word of it and that was like 3 or 4 years ago so hopefully it was just a one off event that God stamped out but I'm still on guard.

[@kennethcava4488]

A relative of mine goes to a usually very solid Methodist church. I was chagrined recently when they did a nine week sermon series on the Enneagram. Good grief!

[@richardrice1032]

I agree! You should be "chagrined", if not more. Makes me wonder how many, if any Bible Verses were lifted up in those 9 weeks! "www.openbible.info/topics/divisions", 2 Timothy 3:5.

[@HickoryDickory86]

"Now the Spirit explicitly says that in the last times some will depart from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons" (1 Timothy 4:1).

[@asparrow5505]

9 weeks? 🤦‍♀️

[@andrewcramer9200]

@@asparrow5505 1 for each type, obviously. What a waste of 9 good weeks.

[@KingdomUploader]

I was introduced to richard rohr in a recovery group based on rohr's book 'breathing underwater'. That book seemed innocuous enough so I looked into him further and slowly - my Spiritual spidy senses began to tingle. The group's facilitator became enamored with rohr and signed up with his school of contemplation or whatever it's called. Since then, this great church body I've been a part of has given platform to a woman that is now taking us off into these troubled waters - so sad Prayer and fasting ain't cutting it? uh oh - I used the F word :)

[@0animalproductworld558]

You are doing a good job girl

[@liljenborg2517]

"Everybody knows about it" I've NEVER heard of the Enneagram except a couple of references to it in your and Allie Beth Stuckey's videos. I was planning on googling it, then you put up this interview about it. Thanks. I guess nobody in the churches I'm connected to has ever read any of these books. I do remember back in the early 1980s when some personality test using the medieval (ancient Greek) four humors as labels became a bit of a fad and then it vanished when the Meyer's-Briggs exploded onto the scene in the late 80s.

[@richardrice1032]

I was also unaware of the "enneagram" until a few months ago. Seems to be a topic that is not Preached to the general church population but chatted about in smaller settings. With respect to "Meyers-Briggs" I have found that it is helpful to understand the many different personalities that we humans have, but should not be used to Judge others, or even ourselves. Within those boundaries it does have value. Suggest checking out the 12 Disciples of Jesus. From reading the Gospels does it seem like Peter was a little impulsive? See John 13:8. Didn't Jesus tell Pontius Pilate my kingdom is not of this world? Thomas was a doubter, and on it goes.

[@andrewcramer9200]

@@richardrice1032 The value is an illusion. You don't need heavily invalidated tests like MBTI and Enneagram to know that people have some differences and commonalities.

[@Arguewityamama]

I’m soooo grateful God saw fit to grab me from the New Age before I got too deep, because of that when I listened to an audiobook for all of maybe 5 minutes about the enneagram (was my first time ever hearing about it) the Holy Spirit in me wasted no time telling me to “cut it off”

[@TheJesusNerd40]

12:13 I feel the same way, @AlisaChilders

[@breathofgodministries3955]

Sister Alisa, I am pretty sure you and I have the same favorite color. May the Lord bless you and your channel. Sincerely, Pastor Christopher S. ❤️✝️🕊 God is good. Mark 16:15 KJV

[@AllThingsArePossible]

Great program Alisa! I just have to say, on a side note, you are just such a wonderful and intelligent host and student of the Word! I hope to find a wife one day who is as hungry for God and the things of God as you are! God bless you!

[@seanrathmakedisciples1508]

There is a lot of wrong spirits in the church ( kundalini laughter spirits and others. That’s why we need the gift of discernment in our churches

[@gabefields8012]

Yes churches do. They kicked deliverance/spiritual warfare out of church and now demons are literally invading the church.

[@christinathom5528]

Nothing wrong with laughter n joy in the church.

[@gabefields8012]

@@christinathom5528 you're right but there is a difference. The Holy Spirit does not control a person. The uncontrollable "holy laughter" is not from God. I'm not saying God is against laughter but we need to be discerning here. On the Elvis neuhardt network there is a teaching with video clips of "holy laughter" and occult doing the same thing. It is identical! I know people that went to ministries like Bethel and this person had many demons cast out of them. I'm all for the move of the Holy Spirit but satan is a master of deception and has wormed his way into the church.

[@gabefields8012]

If anyone wants to see a teaching with actual video clips of "holy laughter" and kundalini manifestations in the church compared to the occult look up Elvis neuhardt network here on KZbin. The teachings are "is kundalini yoga good for the church " and "counterfeit holy Spirit." You will be shocked when you see the video of kundalini practitioners compared to what is happening in some churches.

[@seanrathmakedisciples1508]

@@gabefields8012 Thanks for your video. I’ve subscribed to your KZbin channel.

[@cathyr.5360]

I first purchased a Richard Rohr book back in 2011 because a friend recommended it. Having no prior knowledge about the author, I had read about a third of the book when alarm bells started going off. The Holy Spirit made it plain that the message was false and that the author was a heretic. The minute I heard that Richard Rohr was leading the charge for the enneagram was the minute I knew I would have nothing to do with it. An assistant pastor at a church i used to attend changed dramatically after becoming involved with Richard and the enneagram. He resigned his position at the church so that he could start teaching on the enneagram full time, and he also came out as gay. Now he claims that the blood of Jesus is not necessary for our salvation. It's been so sad to have witnessed this deception overtake someone who once walked in truth. 😢

[@mcoz6934]

Being suspicious of the enneagram, I've avoided it the past handful of years, but have been wanting to find out more about it & where it came from. Thx for providing Alisa!!

[@michaelwilliams376]

When I took this test, I used discernment to what was accurate and rebuked content that didn’t align with my Christian worldview… I was ignorant of the origins, but now I see this as another way to glorify and point to self instead of God which is obviously sin.

[@stevejeffries1603]

There will be a great falling away and people departing from the faith false christs , deciivers and false teachers we need to be careful pray without ceasing and check everything in the light of scripture

[@benwest3223]

I first heard of the enneagram several years ago on the Relevant magazine podcast. They made it sound appealing, but it should have been one of several red flags of issues of progressivism being pushed on the church by that editorial board. Good to have more background on it.

[@asparrow5505]

Interesting. I remember hearing about each number being some kind of new age spiritual pathway to being a god or something goofy like that. Now I want to research the ennegram.

[@stacylane5934]

I am so sad my church decided to use... I can’t support and pastor told me it’s a matter of conscience but I completely disagree and think it’s wrong and had to leave.

[@dingotomtom]

I'm so glad you left that church. I hope and pray that u find a Bible Believing church that has a pastor who knows that this stuff is just wrong

[@Arguewityamama]

Praise God, you made the right decision no question about it.

[@bitcoinbelle]

My surname is Seven. Before becoming a Christian, with a radical conversion at 18, occultists were in my business. That probably saved me from ever falling for numerologists once saved. That AND BEING IN GOD'S WORD. If it's about "self", it's not God.

[@HickoryDickory86]

It's the oldest trick in the book... literally. "But the serpent said to the woman, 'You shall not surely die. For God knows that on the day you both eat from it, then your eyes will be opened and you both shall be like gods, knowing good and evil.'" (Genesis 3:4-5)

[@jeangrainger8304]

No everyone does not know what the enneagram is. I had to google it and I still don't understand what it is

[@daisysalinas2726]

It's basically a personality test. It's similar to a zodiac sign. I used it for a long time and it's alarming just how accurate it could be if you were not aware of its dangers. It's extremely popular among Millennial and Gen Z Christians.

[@albertpost9776]

The enneagram is a personality assessment based on certain behavioral patterns and motivational drives. It has taken the Christian world by storm because it so accurately describes the 9 basic vices like anger, gluttony, lust, laziness etc. that are found in the Bible. The uproar is that after the enneagram has been used successfully in Christian Churches for over 40 years to help Christians identify their main vice that needs to be redeemed to help them become better Christians, the originator of the system confessed that he got the information through occult means by having made contact with spirits. This has divided the Christian Community between those who now discard it because of its occult origin and those who claim that it can be redeemed from its occult origins by limiting its use to the 9 personality types since you are not required to believe in any occult doctrine or having to involve occult practices to use the system. The Enneagram differs from astrology or numerology in that numerology and astrology requires you to practice the art of divination that is an occult practice which is against Jesus and Christianity, while the enneagram does not. The argument does not go about if you must or should use the enneagram but rather are you allowed it use it or not. Which view you adhere to, all depends on which statement of Jesus you go along with. If "whoever is not for us, is against us" then the enneagram that is not explicitly for Jesus or Christianity must be discarded. If you go along with "whoever is not against us, is for us" then the enneagram that is not explicitly against Jesus or Christianity can be used by Christians. The problem is that Jesus uttered both sayings so we are left to decide for ourselves which view we adhere to for all non Christian teachings which in this case deals with the enneagram.

[@andrewcramer9200]

Albert Post is an intellectually lazy bandwagoner, I wouldn't listen to his over-long nonsense comment.

[@auntpurl5325]

Sadly, this popped up in a sermon at my own local church.

[@dingotomtom]

that's sad and very dangerous. I would hope ur pastor comes to the realization that this type of teaching is not biblical

[@jamietaylor9322]

I feel like this is in one way a very slippery slope, but in another way, not so much. I am a firm Christian and believer in the gospels and of our Savior, Jesus Christ. I have also taken the enneagram quiz to find out my number/personality type, and I have gained tremendous insight into some of my personality quirks. I found it to be quite accurate, as have some of my Christian friends. I don't see anything wrong with using that to find some of our short comings and work on them. I would NEVER use the results to work on my personal relationship with Jesus Christ, however. That is what the Bible, prayer and church are for. So it's just my opinion that there can certainly be both in your life, as long as you remember what is most important...our Lord and Savior!

[@rebeccag6759]

Here’s the danger with this. It’s going to resonate, that is how Satan subtly seduces people. But the important part of it, is that Gods WORD is the discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. You don’t need the enneagram to get in touch with yourself. You need Gods word to shine a light on areas HE wants you to work on and most importantly what He says about you. The worlds view will never equal what His view is and we are to be careful about following false doctrine. I mean no shame whatsoever, but please seek the Holy Spirit about this.

[@creativej]

Oh deary dear... so heres the thing... what if you found out cars were developed by some misguided soul using automatic writing... would you stop riding in and driving them? Heck no! You know why? Because of the fruit they produce. Yes, people get killed in em, but when used properly, they do more good than harm overall. So get ahold of all things and do good with them! Eat the chicken and throw out the bones! Some things may be irredeemable but the fruit tells the story... and these kinds of personality systems are often very useful in helping people understand themselves and each other better... and that's just plain awesome. 😎👍 Cheers and Shalom! 🥂🙌

[@andrewcramer9200]

Actually psychologists say exactly the opposite. The international encyclopedia of the social sciences says "Typologies serve two basic functions: they codify and they allow prediction. They are appealing because they offer simplistic pigeonholing and an assumed peek into the unknown. Hence they are a form of divination and fortune telling. They can be as entertaining as any parlor game, but the real tragedy of such schemes is that life-and-death advice is being given to people. A “Temperament Counselor” who advises on a lifetime career, marriage or spiritual development is likely to influence people’s lives for good or ill. Moreover, the victims often believe that they are really gaining knowledge about others and often rely upon the scheme to explain and excuse questionable behavior in others and themselves, instead of growing and changing by assuming responsibility. Unfortunately, from the scientific point of view, nothing is explained if the state we have attributed to the person from his behaviour, is then invoked as the cause of the behaviour from which it was inferred. Circular explanations like this give the appearance of a genuine explanation that offers genuine knowledge. But it is only illusory.’" Psychologists know you think they are "often very useful" but recommend against them because, in fact, they are not.

[@andrewcramer9200]

From personality expert Wim Hofstee, Psychology Professor Emeritus at the University of Groningen: "The Enneagram is no serious scientific model. It belongs to the confusing and rapidly changing field of lay-psychology: it seems to be a flourishing trade. A psychologist who is a member of the Dutch Institute of Psychologists who works with the Enneagram, risks getting a complaint based on Article III.3 of the professional Code of Ethics, which is about expertise. For non-psychologists such restrictions of course do not apply. But as the Enneagram industry is making statements about our personality - which is subject to scientific research and a profession - we must call a spade a spade: it is simply nonsense." Once again, you can claim you've learned sooo much from it, but experts know the cognitive biases and shortcuts you used to reach that false conclusion.

[@andrewcramer9200]

Finally, let's consider your argument here. Cars were not made via automatic writing. Cars do not claim to know all of your "core sins". Cars are not spiritual tools that purport that human behavior is controlled by a 3rd grade math equation. The enneagram types are mapped out based on the decimal expression of x divided by 7 (for x = 1 through 6, basically), and x divided by 3 (similar). 1/7 = .148257142857... repeating infinitely. 2/7 = .482571428571... repeating infinitely and so on. This is a harmonic series. A fun little math quirk, but that's it. 1/3 = .333333333, 2/3 = .6666666666, and 3/3 for purposes of the enneagram = .99999999999. This is why the arrows on the diagram connect 1 to 4, 4 to 2, 2 to 5 and so on, plus 3 to 6, 6 to 9 and 9 back to 3. This is why they claim if you are whatever number, you move to that number in the sequence when "healthy" or "unhealthy." The claim, again, is that your behavior is in fact dictated by a math problem. This is insipid nonsense. Human beings were created in the image of God which means we have intelligence and free will. The enneagram claims you are just a robot programmed by a harmonic series, which is numerology, which is divination. Deuteronomy 18 calls anyone who practices divination an abomination. God has not changed his mind on that subject.

[@carolinejohnson4359]

I shared my concern about this almost 2 years ago and was told it wasn't being used in that way so it wasn't a big deal. Most people just don't want to hear truth I guess.

[@c.g.ryderii2405]

Researching symbols is one of the things that help lead me to Jesus. A mass majority of symbols are occult. Even the fish is questionable. Stick with the cross. It's really too bad we can't represent the open tomb. Much love friends, Jesus Christ is King

[@c.g.ryderii2405]

@em ! Research freemasonry symbology or occult symbology. I wouldn't tell you what you should or shouldn't do. Pray when you come across something that doesn't add up and let the Spirit guide you. Once you learn you're participating in some way, the Holy Spirit will not sit well with it and you will be convicted. . Much love friend Jesus Christ is King

[@8polyglot]

I am Catholic and I’ve never heard of this system, but many Catholic priests are speaking against it recently.

[@albertpost9776]

Yes, I understand why many catholic priests recently would be speaking out against it. Here could be several reasons why. 1. They want to distance themselves and the Catholic faith from the heretical but famous Catholic priest Fr. Richard Rohr OFM who uses the Enneagram to promote Non Christian and Non Catholic teachings like universalism. By warning against the Enneagram, they can prevent many would be Catholics from being led astray by Fr. Richard Rohr's heretical views. 2. The Enneagram is not meant for infants in the faith that still need milk rather than solid food for nourishment but is only meant for those mature in their faith. People not solidly grounded in their faith will abuse the Enneagram personality types to manipulate or pigeonhole others into certain behavior patterns. Also people who are not solidly grounded in their faith will try to save themselves by trying to overcome their Enneagram fixations on their own rather than trusting Jesus to free them from their Fixations. This can lead to unchristian and sinful behavior. 3. Many of the people teaching the Enneagram are amateurs at it and teach it wrongly. They focus on behavior rather than motivation, drives or fixations. The result is that people tend to misidentify their Enneagram type. This leads to confusion. It is very easy to understand the basics of the Enneagram but like Chess that is easy to learn the basic moves but take years to master, the same goes for the Enneagram. It can take years of study and thousands of hours of practice to be able to separate 2 similar but different personality types seeing that we need to focus on the fixation rather than the behavior. 4. In this world of confusion and competing noises where people have lost their faith, these priests are focusing on the essentials of Christianity. Enneagram never was, is or will be essential to Christianity. It is merely a helpful tool for those mature enough to use it. So in order to focus on the essentials they discard the non essentials which include the Enneagram so that people won't be misled from the true faith. This seems to be the main concern of the presenters of this podcast. 5. Maybe these priests don't know the Enneagram well enough and are warning against what they wrongly believe the Enneagram is. They are warning against the abuses of the Enneagram rather than the correct use of the Enneagram. Since the Enneagram is not central to Christianity and it takes years to master it well enough to teach it truthfully, the modern day priest does not have the time, energy nor urgency to spend enough time to study the Enneagram. So they in good conscience warn against what they wrongly believe the Enneagram to be.

[@lilyw.719]

@@albertpost9776. This sounds reasonable but seems to be leaving out the core, salient point. Why would anybody even want to study and practice a system that was dictated directly by a demon? Thinking that you're "mature" enough to handle that seems a bit prideful, which demons love. Of course it's extremely seductive and looks harmless on the surface, but it's not going to lead anywhere good. Take it from somebody who accidentally brought demons home after dabbling in the occult while not even believing in it, back in my godless heathen days, when I used to be a fake carnival psychic entertainer. It's all fun and games, until one day you find out what sleep paralysis dreams are, when you've got a demon curled up against your side in bed, whispering sweet nothings directly into your ear. Or you get to find out exactly what a witch looks like, because it's standing next to your bed. Now I won't go near anything that has so much as a whiff of the demonic about it, and you can tell just from looking at the enneagram, let alone actually finding out that it was dictated directly by a demon. The exorcists are sort of experts in this field too, and they're all unanimous that it's demonic. Anything promoted by Richard Rohr is also likely to be demonic. One of his other big influences was apparently Teilhard de Chardin, who describes in great detail actually being possessed by a demon called "The Spirit of the World.". He doesn't seem to have understood what that was, but it's crystal clear when you read the account. Are you just not concerned about any of this? Do you not believe in hell, or something? Because it is incredibly real. I am way past the age for the onset of any kind of psychotic disorders, so what I've seen I've seen, both the good and the bad, asleep and awake, and it was more than enough to convert me from 20 years of militant atheism to traditional Catholicism. And thanks be to God for showing me the reality of it all. Don't find out when it's too late, dude.

[@albertpost9776]

@@lilyw.719 Thanks for your concern. Yes I do believe in heaven, hell and the afterlife along with all the major tenants of the Christian faith. Yes I am most concerned about the demonic origins of the Enneagram which is precisely why I talk about discernment and limiting it to the 9 personality types only which discards at least 99.99% of any demonic influence regarding the Enneagram. People like Richard Rohr are going way beyond the 9 personality types. They are talking about using the Enneagram as a tool for spiritual liberation or to promote New Age teaching. This is where the real demonic influence lies and I discard all usage of the Enneagram as a spiritual tool or religious teaching tool, thereby getting rid of any demonic influence. I am only limiting the Enneagram to the understanding of the 9 personality types. You must remember that it is only recently that we heard of Enneagram's demonic origin after it was already used successfully without any demonic interference or involvement for more than 40 years in Christian circles. This is part of the discernment process I am referring to. We are not just praying and reasoning about it when discerning. We are also looking at its fruits. When Jesus told us to judge and use discernment, the measuring stick He used is to look at the fruit it produces. So we have 40 years of Christian involvement in the Enneagram to use in discernment process along with the Church's condemnation of using the Enneagram as a tool for spiritual liberation. The Church has not condemned the idea that there are 9 personality types or that these personality types are connected to each other as the Enneagram symbol suggests. So I am leaning of the Church's pronouncement and not just my own idea in discernment which avoids the idea of being proud or filled with pride. As far as the Enneagram fruits concerning the Christian faith is concerned, it showed itself to be neutral when limited to the 9 personality types. This is what I use as my discernment process to tell me whether to use the Enneagram or not. As far as demonic involvement in the Enneagram is concerned. Determining your personality type ends as soon as you discover your type and learned its vices thereby preventing any demonic influence. It is not ongoing. You yourself said that it was only after some time of continuous dabbling as a fake psychic entertainer that your demonic inferences started. The ongoing demonic influence is using the Enneagram as a spiritual tool and not as a personality assessment. The only demonic influence left in the 9 personality type EN usage if any are the names and the personality positioning on the EN circle. Even here the positioning is only used when you dive deeper in the EN and is not used when discerning your type. Also when determining your personality type I am not suggesting making any Enneagram symbols at all or meditating on the symbol thereby closing any doors for potential demonic influence. As for the names of the 9 types. People who were not connected to the Enneagram have made their own research and human science studies and found the 9 personality types of the Enneagram to be as scientifically valid as any personality assessment type that had no connection to any demonic contact that is being used to help people having better relationships in the work and at home. This suggests that the only demonic influence if any that remain by using the names of the 9 personality types is about the same demonic influence as using the demonic names in naming the days of the week after pagan gods i.e. Thursday is Thor's day, Friday is Frieda's day, Saturday is Saturn's day etc. We still use these pagan names that honors demons for the week days rather than saying Thursday as last supper day, Friday as crucifixion day, Saturday as Mary's day etc. By this standard the Church can't condemn the usage of the names of the 9 personality types if it has not condemned the usage of the name of pagan gods for naming the days of the week. We must realize that only the names of the 9 personality types were given through occult means. The actual behavior of the 9 types were discovered by trail and error and scientific assessment and not through occult or demonic input. This shows that the demonic influence or interference in being tempted to sin daily is so much greater than any demonic influence possible in discerning your personality type that does not require you to use any occult practices. In this world, demonic interference or influence is everywhere even in wanting to use good things that are not demonically connected for evil purposes, like using God's name in vain. So we see that demonic interference is 24/7 if you try to live a Christian life. Based upon past fruits regarding the Enneagram personality types on Christians we see that the daily demonic interference/influence in living a Christian live is stronger than we any we can experience in attempting just to determine your personality types. This makes the demonic influence at most negligible if not completely absent in determining your Enneagram personality type and that demonic influence only becomes a reality in using the Enneagram in means other than assessing your personality type. It is with this understanding that I said what I said. If there is something wrong with it or I overlooked something please let me know.

[@andrewcramer9200]

@@albertpost9776 I'll reply to another one of your comments: THERE ARE NO SUCH THINGS AS PERSONALITY TYPES! It is easier to fool someone than to convince them they have been fooled. Look up Jay Medenwaldt, he is apparently doing his dissertation on the Enneagram, and not because he loves it or thinks it is useful. He is doing research and finding that the "benefits" are superficial and the harm is real. He just posted a transcript of a presentation he did on his personal website that cites multiple studies that show beyond the shadow of a doubt that the whole thing is just a scam, and he doesn't even MENTION the origins, he only focuses on the mechanics. It's junk. Garbage. Useless. Only works on gullible people. Seriously...

[@albertpost9776]

@@andrewcramer9200 When we talk about personality types we are in what is called the soft sciences. It is not the hard sciences like maths or physics that we can prove with 100% accuracy. Personally types is based upon human behaviors of which there are too many to define. So each personality typology focus on something different. This is why there are so many different personality topologies out there seeing that they each focus on some different aspects of human behavior. The temptation is to discard personality typology or types based on the disagreement. What we need to realize is that each personality typing system is like another language. To discard personality types because it has no scientific basis because of there being so many different types and variations of personality typologies like Enneagram, Myers Briggs, ancient Greece 4 temperaments etc is like trying to determine which one language is correct. The short answer is that each personality typology is helpful in its field. This is why it has been around for centuries going even way back to the ancient Greeks before the time of Christ. Also many companies have successfully used personality typology like the Enneagram to help better understand their employees and getting better cooperation and teamwork from it. I doubt that these companies will keep using the Enneagram and other personality types if it doesn't exist or that all companies using the Enneagram sees it as a fake into conning people into cooperation. Like everything else personality types like the Enneagram is a useful tool that works for some people but not others. So if you don't find it helpful this does not mean that someone else can't find it helpful or that the whole thing is a scam conning gullible people. As for Jay Medenwaldt, I will be sure to read his Enneagram research. I also hope, trust and pray that he will include discussing some of his Enneagram concerns with people like Russ Hudson and other prominent EN leading authorities and giving feedback on his findings in his research and not limit his research to popular books written on the Enneagram, many of them by people who do not understand the Enneagram.

[@cherimolinari7633]

Enneagram, many of those leaning away from conventional western Christianity are finding bearing through “mystics”. God please be with us. Help us return to who you are. Forgive us for our cultural confusions.

[@inspektorsx683]

Marcia needs to talk about Katherine Fauvre, Enneagram propagator of tritype, nobody talks about this woman

[@AmericaineAParis]

South Carolina megachurch SeaCoast had a pastor named Darrin Patrick who taught the enneagram. He traveled to Southern Baptist college Liberty University to teach this to their students during Convo, on various podcasts, and in virtual classes. Not long afterward, he shot himself in suicide, proving that the enneagram "helps" and "heals" no one.

[@dmj-ju9zx]

My (Catholic) pastor in the 80's was very interested in the Enneagram. I got a book on it at the library. It didn't seem particularly useful or scientific (even by the standards of the social sciences). The source of the "information" about the personality types was never mentioned. I looked for my supposed "type" and never found it. It all seemed dubious at best, and the word "Enneagram" even SOUNDS like it's related the occult. It's easy to see, though, how people would be fooled by it, because the "personal power" it offers to give you is of a very subtle type.

[@mr.g.2280]

Where is the video regarding the automatic writing?

[@SparklesNJazz]

i understand completely not placing your faith in a personality system but i actually really relate to my “type” (type 4), and not because i think the character flaws are quirky and cute but because it genuinely helped me see my weaknesses and faulty ways of thinking. like i am now able to go into situations more thoughtfully because of it, and it helped me realize where i’m prideful and where i should lean on God rather than my personal idols. it also helped me identify my sins and what thought patterns lead to them. i don’t think enneagram has the answers to life but just like a system like the myers-briggs it can help you see things in yourself that perhaps you should work on that can help you relate to and love others better.

[@toolegittoquit_001]

Where does Christ end and the Ennagram begin ?

[@SparklesNJazz]

@@toolegittoquit_001 Christ doesn’t end?? it’s just fallible human wisdom that can be useful in moderation, like any other book you may read or advice you may follow.

[@carolberubee]

The indwelling Spirit teaching you through His Word is not enough? And why would we need to know about ourselves since we are to die to self? And since we are being conformed to the image of Christ by the power of His Spirit, all else is contrary to His work in us. No man-made system that purports to "enlighten us" concerning our souls can stand in the day of judgment. Why would you want to mix "fallible human wisdom" with the treasures of wisdom and knowledge that are found only in Christ (Colossians 2:3)? Is He not our sole (and soul) sufficiency?

[@SparklesNJazz]

@@carolberubee Well by that logic we shouldn’t make any scientific discoveries either, since all human knowledge is ultimately bad and sinful. Obviously there is good along with sin in every human so there is some wisdom there as well. We shouldn’t listen to pastors either by that logic, because sermons are created by their fallible human minds. Even the Word has to be interpreted and is therefore reliant on SOME form of human wisdom. Knowing about yourself is important to a certain extent. For example I was totally unaware of why my actions were leading me into bad situations, and once I was able to self reflect and understand myself better I understood WHY it kept happening. God gave us brains for a reason, we can’t just not use them.

[@SparklesNJazz]

@@carolberubee My point is that the way I was interpreting enneagram ultimately led me BACK to Christ. I was fairly self obsessed before that. I know it’s not that way for everyone and perhaps it would just be advisable to stray away from it for most. But I’m thankful for it for that reason, and perhaps God led me to it to make those discoveries.

[@JasonShannonFaulkner]

Also what about "spiritual gift" assessments like the Romans 12 Assessment?

[@Thecaveandcognition]

I feel like there are some complex issues at hand here. I know the gospel is simple though. As far as the ennegream I always thought it was basically similar in both function and form to the Myers-Briggs systems. I have a handful of people Im connected to that are professional therapists and Christians Id like to bounce some of things off of now. I have learned the ennegram system somewhat extensively and consider myself a strong believer, and the main problems I've found with it are that 1. it can take our relience off God, 2. It can make someone self obsessive, and 3. It can be pretty divisive. As for numbers 1 & 2 I felt like that was more of a personal responsibility thing. As for number 3 I noticed that not only did it make me feel like I know more than other people (pride?) but also certain times I have brought it up to Christian friends of family they become very upset, and some friends I think have even written me off and I wonder if its because I brought up the ennegream. Id like to hear more opinion on personal growth in the church, how do you do it in a Holy way? Most Christians now believe in counseling and things of that nature, but where does the line cross? Again, I wonder how different the Myers-Briggs system is. I think the church has a history of neglecting emotional and mental health or just not knowing how to deal with things like that. Is it fair to tell everyone "just have faith and suck it up" kind of thing? Most of us agree that's not always the best way to help someone. Anyway I suppose I'm saying that after identifying something like in this video (bad ideas, the bad origins of ideas, bad leaders), what part do we need to play to recognize what we need to do to fill the void people are trying fill with bad things, and fill them with what Jesus wants and in a Holy way? I dont want to use ennegream after watching this and reading the history of it on their website (just did that). It is strange there it feels like there is some truth in it, and even more strange that I feel it has helped me not give up in life. I am an extremely creative individual, I am really good at all sorts of creative things and I love learning things and knowing a lot about how people and the world works. I also love Jesus. But put all those together and I am extremely misunderstood all of the time and its hard for me to find innerhealth (not because I love Jesus but the other stuff). I feel like I have a lot of growing and learning to do in order to be able to fit into this world and function even just a little bit well. But maybe thats not the case. I know Jesus can take me so much farther than the enneagream ever could. Just wanted to put this out there and see if anyone can understand what Im describing.

[@DebbieMason]

Hi! You mention a lot here. Re: the Myers-Briggs - Here's how I process it: When is the last time you saw people forming their identity to the Myers-Briggs 16 personalities? When is it taught in churches, in podcasts, and online courses, and even has entire communities shifted their thinking toward it? For me, that's the 'tell.' The enneagram has such a HOLD on people... it's very strange and very soulish. As for your desire to feel known... I understand, as I too am a creative person who feels misunderstood quite a lot. The best thing I can advise--and it's going to sound cliche but it's true--get to know God more. Plant yourself in a strong biblical community of believers who are seeking to know Christ and be conformed to His image. I think so many times we (and I'm going to assume maybe you're in North America) think it's all about US. Focus on blessing others with your gifts and talents and abilities, and make it less about you and your "issues" (not saying you have them, but just covering the bases there). That's the pathway to joy. God's will for our life isn't for us to be navel-gazing... In Christ, we are free to serve others and love God in thought, word, and in deed. One way I personally choose to grow is through studying the Bible with BSF (Bible Study Fellowship - bsfinternational.org). It's non-denominational, but solid in theology, and structured in approach. Lastly, personal counseling is often a good thing to get perspective and support as you grow as a person. Be aware that some eastern influences exist in that community also, such as the advice to practice mindfulness or yoga. Let God lead you in that effort, should you choose to use it.

[@andrewcramer9200]

A quote from psychologist and author Richard Noll with EWTN about Jungian typology in the christian church (specifically catholics since that's EWTN but I think it applies broadly, too): "It strikes me as strange, and it exemplifies the level of ignorance of what Carl Jung was up to. And I repeat: Anyone who is a true Catholic, and I would include charismatics, cannot teach these things. Jungian teachings are antithetical to Christianity. You can't have it both ways,". The MBTI and Enneagram systems are NOT recommended by PhDs in social sciences. Therapists that use them are often held in scorn.

[@jeremyhinken3365]

I sent this in an email to Enneagram coach: "It was very strange for me to take the Enneagram test: quite a few of the questions don't line up with the Christian Walk or scripture at all. I would not have answered many of the questions with any of the available answers, but there were simply no alternatives. I study and read the Scriptures, pray, and try to give the Gospel to someone everyday. Where does the Enneagram fit into the Christian life? Why do the types not mesh well with the gifts given by the Holy Ghost in 1 Cor. 12 and Romans 12?... I say all that to get to the root, what is the purpose of the Enneagram? What would make it of value to us? I'm genuinely curious. One of the music leaders at our church recommended it to us, otherwise I don't know anything about it. Thank you!" The response is directly in line with 2 Tim. 3:1-7. It's ALL about YOU. YOUR relationship to God. Knowing YOURself... The mark of our age: lovers of self

[@stevehines7520]

It may be worth individual consideration that when we see something presented by definition of human perception, that it is merely drawing our attention from the importance of things given definition within "the Word of God" Numbers have been given definition within "Gods Word" It is not to great of reach in relation to the number 9 to say "it is done" Yet the question remains for the ear of the listener to use Gods Word to determine the importance or value of any statement made by any individual. Most things presented are not presented in affirmation of the glory and majesty of "Gods Word"

[@marisamatson3103]

I think it's helpful to know the origins. I also think it's helpful to know that is not a super accurate way to evaluate yourself. However, I don't think it's usually harmful. I've found it as a helpful tool to learn about myself, just like MBTI. I just don't see what the purpose in making a big deal about it is... Maybe that's just me

[@samanthakwait8782]

I’ve never been into personality stuff thankfully. I don’t understand why we need other people and “sources” to tell us about ourselves lol

[@bauer0788]

It’s helpful to take Myers Briggs tests to better understand yourself and how God wires you. It isnt 100% but knowing if you’re more introverted/extroverted helps you. But our main worry and identity is in Jesus.

[@midnightwatchman1]

I have never heard of it. this is the first time I have come across the word

[@wendyleeconnelly2939]

it's just a personality test. not especially useful. some seem to love it. but in reality, there's nothing mystical or spiritual about it.

[@ybh8ful]

what's Zondervan doing publishing from Rohr's 'disciples'?

[@andrewcramer9200]

MONEY! WOOOO

[@JasonShannonFaulkner]

What about DISC assessments?

[@andrewcramer9200]

Scientifically useless, but according to organizational psychologist and Christian blogger Tom Gilson, DiSC was found to have more psychometric validity than the Enneagram (more of an indictment of the latter than an endorsement of the former). Bottom line: typology is the issue. Not just the Enneagram. THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS TO GETTING TO KNOW ANYONE, not even ourselves. Human memory and cognition is prone to massive error and bias, and these "tools" only prey on that. Because Typology as a concept was really brought to the fore in the 20th century by occultist Carl Jung, it should all be rejected, not just by Christians, but any rational, thinking adult.

[@KingdomUploader]

'By his divine power, God has given us everything that pertains to life and Godliness' 2 Peter 1:3 - These "tools" only serve to fuel our gnostic desire to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, as far as I'm concerned.

[@stuartsimpson65]

Caution needs to be exercised here. The man quoted in the video (Gurdfjieff) used the Enneagram for something quite different - fourth wave spirituality - to those who use it as a model of nine personality types. In terms of helping to understand different personality types, I have found it to be very helpful. I hadn't heard of Gurdjieff and his application of it which Christians should clearly avoid. It is good to be discerning and informed about things, but not go overboard and dismiss everything else because of an evil association. Otherwise there are a number of other activities and festivals that Christians engage in which they should reject as well.

[@andrewcramer9200]

"In terms of helping to understand different personality types, I have found it to be very helpful." THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS PERSONALITY TYPES. Sorry to yell. You can rightly point out that Gurdjieff's original intent was different, but that doesn't really matter. The original intent of typology, according to Carl Jung himself, was to find the "true self" and to "individuate" which means "release the God within", which is not only just plain goofy, it's not even remotely biblical. But again, there are no types in personality, personality is divided into traits that can be in any combination or permutation, and trying to use occult-influenced "tools" as a shortcut is only going to prove superficially helpful, at best. You can deny that all you like, but the ability for humans to be duped into thinking they've learned something useful that is, in fact, nonsense, is astounding.

[@tabipriya8807]

Is it just me or does all these occult testimonies u get YT ads about occult stuff like "mind valley"??

[@dingotomtom]

yes!! It seems like everytime I'm watching stuff like this, those Mind Valley commercials come up. I don't know much about mind valley but what i have heard sounds totally unbiblical to me.

[@bigscarysteve]

If you've ever seen EWTN, you may be familiar with Fr. Mitch Pacwa, a Catholic priest. In 1992, Fr. Pacwa wrote a book titled _Catholics and the New Age._ In it, he told of how so many Catholics are into astrology and the enneagram. While Fr. Pacwa came to the right conclusion, that Christians should avoid these things, I was very disappointed at how tepid his warnings against them were. It was just like, stay away from this stuff and you'll be okay, rather than denouncing them as works of the devil which deserve the harshest judgment.

[@MrsPPNC]

👍👍

[@rabbitrockfish7491]

"I was fooled for decades, listen to me."

[@richardslaymaker3386]

Apologetics achieve so much more when it’s a discussion, rather than constant rebuttal videos. The problem with rebuttal videos is that someone else comes out with a rebuttal video to that rebuttal video. 😆 Rather than always releasing videos which pick apart theology or spiritual practices which doesn’t fit your own, I suggest harmonious dialogue between view points and creating a window for your viewers to use discernment. All this, “We’re right, their wrong” feels very tribal to me, and it’s ultimately rooted in the very real belief that our tribe or narrative is the right one. There are thousands upon thousands of denominations in Christianity, though most are united on core doctrines, they are tribes non the less claiming that their truth is the revealed truth. Can you imagine thousands of parties in a parliament? It would be a nightmare and very little would be achieved. Unfortunately, that is what we have in the church.

[@limenlux8145]

THIS...IS...MY...DREAM...SCENARIO!!! I am willing to dialogue. Hopefully we can find more who are!

[@Frankengruvin]

Alisa, I generally love everything I've heard from you, but I have to take you to task for this video. You both went through the entire video without ever explaining just what the Enneagram actually is! I have recently heard of it as one more of the gazillion "personality analysis tools" that are out there. That doesn't jive at all with what you all were talking about, or at least not what I've seen. I would have liked to have heard a simple "this is what we're talking about" explanation - I'm really just more confused right now than anything else.

[@DogDocLou]

I also started the video and had never even heard the word enneagram so was very confused through much of the video. There is a longer video that I think goes more in depth (this is an excerpt from it) but also has the initial thread of “ok we all know what the enneagram is”. It took me most of the video to get a good understanding.

[@andrewcramer9200]

Look up Patrick Vermeren's "A Skeptic's HR Dictionary", his website has a free chapter on the Enneagram that explains why it isn't just a "personality analysis tool", and he's not a Christian so if you want to try and make the "satanic panic" claim, you can not. It is a completely discredited New Age spirituality scam.

[@Frankengruvin]

@@andrewcramer9200 just read what I guess was an excerpt or summary of his chapter on the Enneagram. Thanks. Aside from his obvious reliance on materialistic explanations of humans and personalities, I think he generally hits the nail on the head.

[@Jessica_Jones]

This particular video is a summary version of a longer interview, where I think they go into a little bit more detail.

[@Hannerloo]

This type of content encourages fear mongering, IMO.

[@rebekka287]

can anyone explain to me what union thinking is?

[@Yakar-Yaoh.6651]

I know this is totally off topic, but sister Childers blinks her eyes a lot. Is that deliberate or on accident? 😉

[@__.Sara.__]

I just found out my church endorses the enneagram. They did a whole series on it about a year ago. I don't know what to do : /

[@manasavuibaubatiwale3593]

"Come out from among them and be ye separate...."

[@Jessica_Jones]

In the full interview, Marcia breaks down her recommendation for how best to confront church leaders with this information.

[@jamielcoyle]

My mega church brought this thing in and it didn’t sit well with me. After researching it, I made the decision to leave! I found a small bible based church that does expository preaching and teaches very sound doctrine. I’ve learned more in the past year and am so happy I made this decision!

[@KingdomUploader]

Oh - you talk about 'spirit guides'. Besides this enneagram phenom, there is also a Christian move towards 'spiritual direction' using spiritual "directors" - but don't worry; the legit 'spiritual directors' are Certified! :)

[@gingertankersley2997]

Yikes! The Enneagram has a lot of followers who I think are born again Christians.

[@RayBekk]

Wow that's scary

[@randybicker907]

Beware of the Acts 29 church network! I used to go to one of these churches which turned out to be very progressive. There was a big gathering of these churches at a church in Los Angeles where it was all about using this thing for “personality typing”!

[@lionhartd138]

One cannot study the occult without hearing about christianity, the churches, etc. The church IS the epitome of the occult.

[@brendagirard3890]

Hi Alyssa I love what you had here today sorry about the spelling I'm not typing that's the Mike's fault. I have been warning about 3 years now about the Enneagram. First time I heard about it was on Mark Lowry's show where he has people for dinner oh, well he had the beautiful Lisa Whelchel on their remember Facts of Life I'm 68 you might not remember. But Lisa was presenting it to Mark Lowry and teaching him all about it knowing that Mark has ADHD I was getting really concerned for him hearing this because he's such a well-known you know Mary Did You Know person he wrote that song and he has been with the Gaithers forever and I love him but I don't like to see those things happen because I am one who has been saved over 40 years been a Sunday school teacher at a children's teacher and also a Watchman according to scripture there are many of us we're on the internet but I do not have a channel. I'm so glad your guest and you covered this today because you see I did not know how far back it went but now I know more and more why the Progressive Church would get into it especially with our youth. I was also listening to hope for a times with Pastor Tom Hughes from California last night and his two pastors were taking over and they talked about the Enneagram so if we get the word out maybe we can do some warning for the youth sake. God bless you thank you for using your channel to warn people and glorify God.

[@jocelynevans1363]

My youth group has talked about this sometimes, not in a 'this answers so many questions' or 'reveals stuff' or whatever but they sincerely just think its interesting to learn about their personality. The whole drug and talking to spirits is now making me very uncomfortable about the whole thing so I think I'll tell my group about this and stay away from the subject as a whole. Thanks for making this!!

[@andrewcramer9200]

The Enneagram makes false statements about personality to begin with. Even without it's goofy origins, it is not recommended by experts and is widely considered a joke among them.

[@myuziksohl]

...... wild

[@llamasugar5478]

Even a cursory inspection of Rohr’s writings reveals him to be heretical. His influences (outside Christianity) include Buddhism, Hinduism, Carl Jung, Spiral Dynamics, and Integral Theory. He cannot teach the Christian anything they truly need to know.

[@carrahful]

I would be leery of any religion who uses symbols. Know what they represent. I have been noticing this on audio books thru KZbin as well just different symbols on the cover i tend to not listen to those.

[@alexmaremaa7057]

Again the Jesuits, again Richard Rohr , what a shocker lol. God bless your ministry Alisa :-)

[@robertgellert1325]

I’ve said this about the Jesuits for years. They are the most educated and apostate theological group in Christianity and Roman Catholicism today. If Rohr is typical of Franciscan thought then the Franciscans aren’t far behind.

[@alecb3332]

Currently working towards my MDiv and the enneagram is seen as an acceptable tool. It's disturbing to me. You have all of these positive psychological tools, meditative practices, and hermeneutical trainings...then there are things like this and other new age practices just mixed on in.

[@jacobwhitehead1926]

This was big in my evangelical college ministry a couple years back. We kinda just saw it as a fun personality test like Myers-Briggs, didn’t know it has an occult background. I recently noticed some popular books on each of the 9 types in the Christian reading section at Barnes and Noble, each with Bible studies apparently geared toward whatever type you are. I can definitely see this as an entryway for progressive Christian ideas to become more mainstream... Scary how evil creeps in so covertly.

[@levirush2426]

Myers- Briggs also has occult origins.

[@marshaperez4158]

Spiritual Transcendental Meditation into the wrong and deceiving spirit realm is called..., a spirit of Divination. These beliefs are derived from New Age and Occultic Teachings. These are the "winds of doctrines...," and also..., the "doctrines of demons" that the scriptures speak of and refer to..., and these unsound doctrines...., that people are to avoid.

[@LizaLavolta]

his people are perishing for lack of knowledge...

[@Jimbob-hj6qp]

It would be nice to see Beth McCord from Your Enneagram Coach on here to hear the other side.

[@andrewcramer9200]

I can summarize the other side: "It helped me!" That's it. They do not allow for the possibility of self-deception, they swallow the Enneagram's premises without a shred of critical thought. If I'm type X, then when I'm "stressed" I move towards type Y, but when I'm "healthy" I move towards type Z. The reason? Because Types XYandZ line up a certain way in the decimal expression of 1/7 and 1/3. All of this has been discredited through formal research and observation, but this does not matter to them, they will retreat to weaker positions like "you may have mistyped yourself!" or "it may not be accurate for everyone" LOL.