Roundtable: Brown & Storms vs. Peters & Osman

Every book in the New Testament, with the exception of Philemon, contains warnings about false teachings. Wolves in sheep's clothing pose a real threat to believers, and Scripture teaches us to mark and avoid them (Romans 16:17-18). However, there is substantial disagreement within the church regarding the biblical definitions of a "false teacher" and "false prophet". This debate is tied to differing views on the nature and continuation of the Holy Spirit's gifts, particularly the gifts of healing, prophecy, and tongues.
In a four-hour roundtable discussion, Justin Peters, Jim Osman, Michael Brown, and Sam Storms sit down to discuss these disagreements in person for the first time. We trust that this conversation will edify the body of Christ and provide clarity on these divisive, yet critical, issues.
Note: This roundtable discussion was recorded on April 1, 2023, six months before the news related to Mike Bickle's sexual abuse became public. Sam Storms' and Michael Brown's joint-statement can be read at 53:25.
Playlist for more videos providing more context for this discussion:
• Roundtable: Brown & St...
For more information:
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[@cultdoctor100]

If you can't call Hinn a false teacher then no one can be called a false teacher

[@insidethelinestouchup9544]

thats true. Hinn is a gimme. Brown and Storms look dumb. and it also should have been easy for Peters to recognize and admit that Luther was guilty of false teaching at the end of his life

[@ProphetGreg94]

Can you call Martin Luther a false teacher?

[@insidethelinestouchup9544]

Based on what Dr. Brown shared, it surely looks like he got there. It seems you can be a born again believer and a false teacher in some cases. Example: Doctor Michael Brown@@ProphetGreg94

[@judithspaun9840]

@@insidethelinestouchup9544I think Justin Peters couldn’t admit that Luther was a false prophet. What a double standard!

[@destinycoach5]

​@@insidethelinestouchup9544i agree brown and storms looked so foolish it will discredit them for years to come, to not agree Hinn is FALSE teacher. It made me so mad. They make us all look so stupid when they can't call such obvious false teachers as roth and Copeland as false . Sadly this very bad beginning will likely be more remembered than the topic of healing which they did a good job at discussing.

[@PatriotMomof5]

I love that 4 great men who love Christ and are committed to spreading the gospel can sit down together and calmly and respectfully discuss their differences. Great respect. 😊

[@anahernandezsmith1106]

Amen !

[@anthonydesroches8897]

Brown is a false teacher so is his friend. And false Christian anyone who goes against Gods words is false.

[@jhabernathy690]

Correction, Two men. I need not continue, no pun intended.

[@RubenJuliaValdez]

@@anthonydesroches8897you are going against Hods word.

[@chrisandrade03X]

I would say that the other guy (not Brown) is pretty reasonable

[@fineartbymattphilleo]

I think this was one of the most respectful discussions between cessasionists and contiuationists I've heard.

[@sheacoaching]

Can you define those terms for me? I need to do some studying…

[@joshw6562]

Cessationist = One who believes the gifts of the holy spirit, typically the "big ones" such as prophecy, healing, tongues, etc have ceased. They are not gifts for today. Continuationist = One who believes those gifts are for today. That's a broad general definition, and there is a lot of minor difference from person to person @@sheacoaching

[@MrTripleAgamer]

​@@sheacoaching I believe it's taking about whether many of the gifts of the spirit were for the early church only or continue to this day.

[@RealNomadicus]

We need more of this

[@sheacoaching]

@@joshw6562 thanks! I love learning more about the theology of our church and how we came to come into the lanes we are in. Holding those lanes, loosely and questioning each piece is so crucial, I think towards growing in our faith.

[@dsen2283]

I used to be epileptic, having seizures all over the place. A man of God pray for me and I haven’t have a seizure in 26yrs. My faith in God was none existing at that time. The man had faith and God heard and answer his prayer. We lived in a fallen world and God never promise us a pain, disease, sickness free life. God can use your sickness / disease to reach millions of people and bring many to salvation. Or He can use your sickness / disease to reach just one person. Or God can use your sickness / disease to draw you closer to Him in relationship. God is good and perfect whether He heal or does not heal. Trust. Believe. Obey Leave the rest to God. Amen to His way.

[@CieloVistaSoftware]

Be glad it wasn't Benny Hinn praying for you.

[@zachmando013]

What a thoughtful, building up of the Church comment. Thank you for that.

[@jgeph2.4]

What does your faith in God consist of now?

[@IImitateVince]

​@jgeph2.4 are you incapable of rejoicing with a person giving a testimony?

[@BrianJohnson-lx3zd]

I needed to hear this. thanks for writing it! (and Amen!)

[@robine1018]

I grew up Pentecostal and I didn’t even know how to get saved until I got out of that church. Charismatics, for the most part, not all, do not teach salvation correctly. I thought I had to get saved every week. I never had assurance. Every sermon was one, maybe two verses and then tons of screaming and telling stories. People would say it was a great service if it was just shouting, speaking in “tongues” running the isles. I needed sound, line by line biblical teaching and God finally gave me that.

[@johnortiz566]

Charismatic and Pentecostal are not the same.

[@stevenlindsey2056]

​@@johnortiz566They have the same heretical origins.

[@robine1018]

@@johnortiz566 My Pentecostal church was charismatic. I’m aware of the difference, but they were and still are charismatic. False teaching.

[@joannedunn2949]

Same for me !

[@caroleimani9754]

​@@stevenlindsey2056 I don't think that ALL Pentecostals and/or Charismatics are heretical...My friend from an Assembly of God Church was instrumental in leading me to the Lord .😅😅

[@MrIanMatthew]

The defense of Mike Bickle cannot be explained away by a on screen quote. The fact Storm claims to know him so well and everything he said just shows the point Peter & Osman extensively

[@brandansmith1663]

What a great conversation and a wonderful blessing to the Church. Thank you! We need more of this Kind of dialogue. Amen! 🎉

[@B.E.G.M]

I hail from South Africa and there were times when access to healthcare was out of reach for many of us. However, during those times, we learned to rely on the power of prayer and witnessed miraculous healings repeatedly. This I know!

[@KathleenJade]

AMEN!

[@vonderer2957]

Sorry to hear that, was this a nationwide thing or just the community or church you are from in South Africa?

[@CieloVistaSoftware]

JESUS heals Hinn doesn't

[@KathleenJade]

@@CieloVistaSoftware well obviously

[@lucerosanchez1318]

Amen 🙏!!

[@jessicae3915]

I was in the Bethel movement and it was because someone did their research, rebuked their false teachings, and proved why it was false, that I got out and was led to the truth. For Sam to say that Justin needs to stop watching videos from false teachers is wrong. Thank you Justin for your hard work in fighting for the truth of scripture.

[@AllThingsNew1723]

That’s how I came out of that movement too! 🙏

[@timothyhollins6010]

The real holy spirit set me free one night after years of suffering after doing the BSSM,then l started to read the bible for myself. So glad to be set free from this demonic filth.

[@JeanetteVallance]

Except Justin teaches calvinism which is a false gospel so he too is a false teacher

[@Goodakeraretha]

Amen yes he doesn't need to stop he is helping people .

[@jonathandavid9720]

@@GoodakerarethaJP is harming more than helping with his Ministry of Criticism and Condemnation.

[@RGabeDavis]

I’m not a cessationist but I have no problem rebuking Benny Hinn. How can anyone defend him

[@kevinevans8892]

Me too. I believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in operation but the Charismatic community must renounce it's association with Hinn and other questionable televangelists

[@matthewmoore8861]

I’m agree with you 100%, and most of what Justin calls “charismatics” would agree with you!

[@sictoruno2345]

I wish u guys were at the table. Would of made a more productive discussion.

[@joevasanu7459]

They know they are false prophets and frauds, but if they start doing so, where does it end? There are NO people they can point to, out of the thousands of people claiming to be talking with God, not a single one, that they can point to as having a single “prophecy” come true. It’s the Achilles heal 😉of continuationism. Without a single person to point out as having ANY prophetic ability, you have to give them all some sort of cover, or it all falls apart. Poor Sam Storms, he bet it all on MB even after having made excuses for the two “biggies” before Bickel, Paul Cain and Bob Jones, both of whom used their “ministry” for sexual abuse. If you can’t call someone who tells women God told him to have them undress in front of him a false prophet, do you see why they can’t call out others like Benny Hinn?

[@emilianoking9400]

@@kevinevans8892the charismatics need to really push Pentecostalism and let go of the charismatic movement. The issue is that many orthodox Pentecostals get lumped in with Benny Hinn and Kenneth Copeland because there seems to be no division between Pentecostalism as a valid tradition of Christianity and this charismatic garbage that is rampant

[@timothyharris4246]

Upon hearing Justin’s description of how Benny Hinn taught the 9-member godhead, Storm’s replies, “But do you know his heart?” Using this metric we can’t call ANYONE a false teacher/prophet. Storms needs to provide biblical proof for his metric of discerning a false teacher. We know a tree by its fruit and we test every teaching to God’s revealed truth (Scripture). How can we claim to know someone’s heart? 2 Cor. 11:13-15 “For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. So it is no surprise if his servants, also, disguise themselves as servants of righteousness.”

[@sorenrousseau]

I agree. "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it."

[@inchristalone25]

Well Storms thought Mike Bickle was a prophet sooo. His discernment is very off.

[@LadyoftheBunnies]

Exactly! And fruit comes from what a person believes/ teaches.

[@babyboy91582]

Upon hearing Dr. Brown's description of Martin Luther's comments and actions (fruits). Justin Peters and Storm both affirmed him because of his doctrinal beliefs. They were both quiet about his fruits though as it was not beneficial for their position. So Martin Luther said the right things "doctrinally", but his actions were contrary so he's not a false teacher.

[@johnstevenoliveras815]

Every false teacher in scripture preached things contrary to the gospel and were UNREPENTANT in doing so. Jesus engaged with the Pharisees and only condemned them when they were unrepentant. Even Pharisees and false teachers turned and got saved. What I’m seeing is CAUTION being exercised which is wise. I think Brown and Storms should watch more videos of these people after this talk because I too believe they are false teachers but honestly I understand why they’re not jumping at it because these people are not the majority of Pentecostals. As someone who grew up in the charismatic movement I can attest to that. Are there issues in the charismatic church? YES! And I expose them, but are there big issues in reformed church too? YES! I’ve also been apart of reformed churches because I’m a Bapticostal 🤣. At any rate Peters does a lot of KZbin searching but by his own admission in the video has only been to a “few” regular charismatic churches and read just “a bit” of keener’s work on miracles. I don’t find him to be a credible or serious source on this when you haven’t done the work. I’m sorry. Just my thoughts

[@nduatimathias2189]

Gentle Men you're doing a great job. I love the level of maturity and sobriety both sides have exhibited in the dialogue. In my opinion this is the kind of conversation we need. So helpful, informative and friendly. May God continue to give you more grace to continue educating us in truth. God bless you.

[@pearcejayw]

Yeah, I would love it if there were more Theological discussions like this on KZbin

[@YuDynasty]

Finished all in one take…man…I’m glad this happened and more conversations with Gospel Centered Continuationists and Cessationists needs to happened. #TogetherForTheGospel

[@TouchTheUniverse]

Yes, this was SO helpful. I've watched a lot of Justin Peters and am grateful for his ministry, to keep God's name Holy in our hearts with reverent fear, but I also perhaps see how in the process, perhaps one can get cynical in aspects of miracles. This is healthy and hope this is just the surface that is getting scratch for further debates.

[@edwardgollihugh2019]

No such thing as a Bible centered continueationist. Once you take that position the Bible is no longer the supreme authority of life and practice.

[@collin501]

@@edwardgollihugh2019and yet the Bible says the Holy Spirit gives gifts, one of which is miracles. So if you are rejecting that, aren’t you rejecting that part of the Bible and not letting it be the supreme authority?

[@edwardgollihugh2019]

@collin501 name one supernatural gift that is practiced as is described in the New Testament. That's right you can't because healing was immediate, prophecy was spot on (as is required by the Bible), and most miracles were done at the hands of the Apostles among the people. About the year AD 55 to 60 the miraculous gifts started to dissipate. If not why would Paul have left Trophimus sick at Militus and he told Timothy to take some wine for his stomach and frequent ailments (not to seek a faith healer or even to "heal" himself).

[@collin501]

@@edwardgollihugh2019 I disagree with the idea of “practicing” but I don’t think that’s an essential part of continuationism. I agree the gifts were spot on and immediate. To your second point, the gifts have been more or less in different times and places, as the Spirit wills, In Bible times and since then. So what? That doesn’t justify an out of context interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13 about ceasing.

[@theclipjax]

Storms: "Bickle is my best friend in this world... I know this man to the depth of his soul." If this debate is about discernment, which it is, debate over.

[@Pugilist928]

Facts

[@danielbright2916]

Indeed. Absolutely lacking in discernment. They had to retract on Bickle so their "knowing people well" counts for zero.

[@TheShotsii]

So people who think Luther is solid have a lack of discernment by your reasoning? Lack of knowledge doesn't mean lack of discernment.

[@HusGoose]

@@TheShotsii Luther is solid in the gospel. What exactly did Luther do that was so damnable?

[@williamphillips2239]

Game! Set! Match!

[@dontatme3844]

Man this conversation was so important. We definitely need more of these with guys like John MacArthur, Piper, Michael Brown and Storms. As someone who grew up in the Pentecostal church for the first 20 years of my life to now having been in a reformed church for the last 1 year this was very fruitful for me to watch. I see both perspectives… God please help me with discernment

[@bassiebangura9676]

That's why cultivating an INTIMATE relationship with Jesus Christ is a must. We have to seek to KNOW God and not just KNOW ABOUT Him. Jesus help us.

[@SergiuSalcau00]

We need soooooooo much LESSSSSS of michael brown s bullshit 😂😂😂😂

[@aussie1602]

@@SergiuSalcau00 out of the abundance of the heart your mouth has spoken. Colossians 3v8-10

[@graysonbr]

Agree!

[@aussie1602]

@@BipolarDistortion32 years as a Christian and I still can't get my head around Calvinism. That interpretation of Scripture is missing for the first 400 years of the church until Augustine comes along. I agree with calling out false teachers but I personally think if ur a cessationist/calvinist u r a false teacher not rightly dividing the word of God. Jesus has delivered me of many demons but they would say it's not for today... Come on...

[@bagmediachannel]

I love to see the church have these godly dialogues. We need more of this. “Behold, how good and pleasant it is when brothers dwell in unity!” ‭‭Psalm‬ ‭133‬:‭1‬ ‭ESV‬‬ To God be the glory.

[@wordtojapan]

I’m a continuationist, but found myself agreeing more with Justin Peters a lot the time. Why are you so afraid to call false doctrine false?!

[@JLar-bb5hl]

90 minutes in, the topic of cessasionism has not really been touched upon. So many cases of healings, tongues, prophesies, books written, cases documented... Hopefully this will be done in the last half.

[@Lilbirdie29]

Being afraid to call it out leaves people in it.

[@BRNMinistries]

They aren't afraid to call false teaching false. They are just saying they are slow to lambast such strong judgment against an individual by calling them an unbeliever without knowing everything.

[@Golden_writes550]

I agree, but what about them not admitting Luther was a false teacher?

[@wordtojapan]

@@Golden_writes550 I agree with that too.

[@TheLtcwilly777]

One of the most condemning aspects of Storms' and Brown's willingness to stand for someone based on the length of time they've "been friends". Sam basically falls completely on his sword saying Mike Bickle is his "best friend" and someone that he would stand up for. And then, the truth about Bickle comes out. It destroys their ability to claim any "discernment."

[@SOLUSCHRISTUS76]

WELL SAID!!!!! 💯💯💯💯

[@metalbible1711]

So I am sure you would have said the same thing about David when his scandals were revealed

[@1699stu]

The Boys

[@1699stu]

@@metalbible1711 Pretty sure most of the Psalms are of David being isolated and withdrawn seeking the Lord after his sin. Mike Bickle is trying to fight what he did and stay in ministry!

[@dirtymeatball6315]

@@metalbible1711 David repented, and God even punished Israel for his sin. Although you make a point, the fact that there was true repentance, It doesn’t hold up against scrutiny in this discussion.

[@christopherruthart7792]

If it weren’t for Justin Peters teaching me about false teachers and their teachings I would still be on the path to hell. Calling out false teachers by name and calling out their teachings are necessary and commanded by scripture:

[@gunilla554]

It’s the same for me. The scales fell from my eyes and ears when I was listening to Justins teaching like 2 years ago. I suddenly realized that I was so deceived.🙏

[@cldrawings1224]

It makes more sense to teach people to recognise false teaching and know what sounds teaching is, so that regarless of where they go they will recognise false teaching and flee. Rather than having a list of names that we state our false teachers. What about if the name is not in the list or they were not named by Justin? Learn sound doctrines and flee anyone that teach otherwise 🤷🏾 What every year we renew the list of false teachers!

[@eagleeyes6642]

These ministers or teachers are all trinitarians that believe there are three people in one God....my question to them and all trinitarians are.....At the Marriage Supper of the Lamb and in the millennium and in the Great thereafter.... How many people/persons do they expect to see there???

[@ChamomileMineral]

I am also someone who heard the truth and ran the other way

[@gunilla554]

@@ChamomileMineral Awesome!🤗

[@RandomBoxingGuy]

We need more of these “Roundtables”! A+!!!

[@williamallen5369]

Thank you Justin peters such a joy to hear you and jim stand firm on the Word of God.

[@DanielDimitrijevic]

So as Michael and Sam😂

[@missionsbibleministry]

This is the kind of comment that breeds and comes from a spirit of division.

[@terryolay4613]

​@missionsbibleministry We should only unite over truth, not error. Jesus came to divide parent vs child, etc. He only prayed for unity among the true followers of His.

[@timvickers947]

It's funny they both deny that God talks to them or anyone. When the word of God says Jesus himself said, my sheep shall hear my voice. Not reading the word or being influenced to Christ by the Holy Spirit. But hear his VOICE. They both said in this video we can not hear God's voice. You do not gear God's voice either. Are you even saved?

[@songbird9444]

It's not a literal voice lol..when Jesus says "my sheep hear my voice, I know them and they follow me", he's speaking of the called of God. Those called by Jesus, who are His, will hear the call in their spirit and answer that call. They are the elect. Those who don't answer the call are not. He's not speaking of an audible voice in your head that you are supposed to hear on the regular. His word does that for Him. That's what Jim and Justin are talking about.

[@thewestwoodhome]

I can tell you now this worth every hour to listen to. Thanks AGTV for all your hard work.

[@jobrown8146]

Thank you for your comment. I will prepare myself to the long haul!

[@jobrown8146]

Yes, definitely worth listening to every part of this video.

[@Grecofire24]

Amen brother, hope your channel is still doing well, I haven’t seen any of your postings lately.

[@songbird9444]

I cannot believe im witnessing this roundtable 😊..what a blessing. Thank you American Gospel..❤️

[@Grecofire24]

Exactly I thought Dr Brown would never address these things but I’m so thankful he did along with Sam Storms.

[@billdiaper8039]

I agree, this is a real blessing. Things should happen more roundtables discussions and even debates on these issues, more regularly with people on both sides.

[@gandalf0987]

Yes this is wonderful and a joy to listen to

[@morningstaraccord]

Nothing with Michael Brown on the panel is a blessing.

[@FollowingJesus129]

​@morningstaraccord It seems Peters and Osman would disagree with you. You probably should check your heart, my friend

[@GraceChurchTriCities]

I just want to say how much I appreciate the pursuit of the bond of peace and love in this conversation. Thank you brothers.

[@kevinevans8892]

The most anticipated film of 2024 is finally on KZbin. Thank you American Gospel from The Bahamas

[@AmericanGospel]

It's not the film though :P But you're welcome.

[@pam2viph]

@@AmericanGospel but it's FOUR hours!!! how long is the film???

[@AmericanGospel]

@@pam2viph this is just an uncut roundtable discussion. AG3 is a docuseries. We’re currently trying to finish up 8 episodes that are around an hour each. That’s just season 1.

[@kevinevans8892]

​@@AmericanGospelI know it's not thee actual documentary but I was anticipating this roundtable discussion far more than the documentary

[@wretchlikeme2506]

​@@AmericanGospelawesome can't wait . Thank you guys

[@williamphillips2239]

One of the most powerful verses in the Bible ...for me ...was when Job said "Though He slay me, yet will I trust him." ...I long for a faith like that ...that strong!

[@ShawnSavageTeachings]

“A fine Christian man like Mike bickle” - Dr. Michael brown 2:12:14 That pretty much sums up the validity of his argument.

[@de1623]

Same defense every time. 'Just trust me and my celebrity friends'

[@Paul-uq4xf]

He has no credibility. Defending Sid Roth and Mike Bickle speaks volumes.

[@TheShotsii]

If someone said "A fine Christian man like martin Luther" would that invalidate their arguments? Being wrong about one thing doesn't mean your entire argument is wrong.

[@de1623]

@@TheShotsii I think the point he was trying to make is that Storm and Brown defended Bickle based on friendship. Storms confirmed his prophecies and 2 trips to heaven all because 'Mike is a nice guy'.

[@TheShotsii]

@@de1623 i agree it wouldn't be my argument either. But Mike lived a double life that everyone who affirmed him would now denounce. I think they had no reason to be skeptical about him because of the public image he put out to even his closest friends. Thus there was no reason to question the prophesies either. It's a sad situation. With these kinds of conversations I would try not to lean on the personal relationship aspect but I understand that's hard when you've done life with someone for decades. Regardless I'm against completely ignoring the rest of their arguments because of their ignorance to someone's private sin.

[@nula370]

Oh I love Justin Peters so much. The unbelief on his face sometimes when they defend all the lunacy is very entertaining, and I feel for him.

[@partlysimpson5154]

healing is not for today yeah?

[@kennethgovernor2432]

Hello and how are you doing Hope you enjoyed the preaching by the pastor And hope you are having a wonderful Sunday

[@Dan-ch8kv]

It was very gracious of the AG team to give that disclosure before the Bickle talk

[@danielbright2916]

And even more telling because Peters didn't know of the SA allegations yet Peters still had the discernment to know Bickle was wrong.

[@TreeOfLifeWoodworking]

​@@danielbright2916oh geez thats not discernment. They dont like any continuationists

[@LadyoftheBunnies]

@treeoflifewoodworking4476 What video did Justin say that? He never once said he doesn't like charasmatics but God tells us to test everything and Bickel has always been a false teacher because he doesn't preach the Bible correctly. At leather get your facts right. Slander is a sin. But Brown and Storms do that so maybe you got it from them?

[@danielbright2916]

@@TreeOfLifeWoodworking be that as it may, I believe Bickle's weather prophecies and claims to have ascended into heaven disqualified him regardless of the SA allegations. Peters knew enough with just that, he didn't need to wait to condemn Bickle over sack shawl immorality.

[@rhythmandgrooves869]

This was a really great discussion. Justin and Jim did a good job backing everything up with scripture. I don’t agree with a lot of reformed teachings, but the way they teach the Bible is amazing and Justin has helped me read the Bible in a new way. Also big oooff for Michael and Sam defending Benny Hinn and Mike Bickle.

[@rhythmandgrooves869]

Also, I can’t tell you how refreshing it is to hear Justin talk about healing the way he did.

[@KOSZG0430]

They didn't back up cessationism with Scripture. They're positions on that topic are pure conjecture.

[@tancindy2887]

I find myself aligning more with the viewpoints expressed by Justin Peter and Jim Osman. I pray for discernment, that we are able to distinguish truth from almost-truth, so that we will not be deceived by false teachers.

[@AlexPazic]

Wonderful conversation between these men. I'm soooo thankful for GOD’S grace and mercy!!! Just focus on JESUS.

[@Katflorent]

Justin and Jim, you displayed tremendous patience. Towards the end of this video I was quite flustered and upset. I was in the hyper charismatic movement for over a decade. There's a lot of passion and zeal for God, but absolutely no understanding of the biblical Gospel. This is common. I left the charismatic church and God saved me four years later after hearing the true Gospel. Realizing my sins against a Holy God was devastating and I grieved for months. I want to be gracious but I'm not sure how Sam and Dr. Michael simply cannot call out false teachers? If they cared about the souls of people, they absolutely would warn fellow Christians about Todd White, Benny Hinn, Bill Johnson and others. Thank you American Gospel for all your hard work, it is so appreciated.

[@Golden_writes550]

I agree. But where they failed is in not calling out Luther's heresy...Luther MAYBE started off well but ended a heretic.

[@hosannayeshua]

I'm not familiar with many of these people at all and I haven't watched this video. Going to pray on it overall but I wanted to say that I love your testimony and I love witnessing the softening of our hearts. How God takes them from stone to flesh and its evident He's done something good in you.

[@shelleythomas1046]

Can the devil heal? Weird question for sure but he does lying wonders and decptions.

[@trishasilver1651]

I couldn't agree more with everything you said! I came out of that movement as well and then came a revelation of the gospel.

[@majose7787]

The defence of Martin Luther was a tap dance. If the dude was a rabid anti semite, it's highly unlikely he was saved. He was a false teacher by his lifestyle (unless he repented). Blatant double standard from Justin and Jim. Being a False teacher isn't JUST about teaching. It's about godliness and morality - and a murderous hateful spirit is proof of a lack of salvation.

[@michaelwilliams7082]

I saw a great miracle while watching this panel and it was the grace and patience that Justin and Jim showed.

[@Captain_Of_A_Starship]

You guys want a non supernatural God it seems but it's better to have the God who scripture references

[@the1der]

This dude Mike Brown literally lives in the gray area. He refused to say that the guy who said Jesus was playing the saxophone over me was lying. "Its possible" Kenneth Copeland not a False Christian??!!?? What a limp man. No lines in the sand. Terrible

[@michaelwilliams7082]

@@Captain_Of_A_Starship that's not true at all. We want all the supernatural that the Lord will give us but we don't want people falsifying the super natural in the name of the Lord in order to gain earthly prominence.

[@Captain_Of_A_Starship]

@@michaelwilliams7082 I can agree with your statement but it isn't in the typical reasoning for many of these who believe the gifts have ceased.

[@esmeraldamendez37]

How many of you have gone to the streets to take the Word of God?? The majority critics of Gods supernatural power and gifts given trough him to his disciples have not gone out to preach at all!!!

[@BATTY3459]

What I find so frustrating about Brown and Storms is whenever they're asked about whether someone should be denounced as a false teacher, their response is always "I haven't watched the show/I haven't done the research/I know the person or people who have spent time with them and so that's how I discern whether they're genuine." They just seem willfully ignorant. Why would you engage in a discussion like this without bothering to do some research? I'm sure they could find time to watch some of Hinn, Copeland, Roth etc. They just don't want to.

[@truthlover710]

Exactly! God does not command us to "sit down with them and talk about it" we are commanded to "mark and avoid." It's like they think there's only 3 false prophets in the world! Sorry you weak men, I can't sit with all the weirdo false prophets and teachers. More fear of men than of God. Unbelievable

[@marks3400]

This reminds me a little bit, like the White House secretary, and expert at avoiding the question

[@nathanoosterhuis6232]

Thats the charismatic power structure. 1 for all, all for 1. Presumed good works trump bad works.

[@IamGodSon]

Why will you want to call someone false based on just a single troublesome message.

[@IamGodSon]

Would you call the ignorant apollos (prior to his meeting the preaching couple) to be a heretic?

[@austinh4709]

"For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge?" -Apostle Paul "Who are we to judge a brother?" -Michael Brown

[@LadyoftheBunnies]

💯

[@leondick1172]

The end of the verse is even clearer: “12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”” 1.Cor 5,12-13

[@StEpHeNno22]

And "those inside the church" are supposed to be friends as Jesus was friends with the apostles ("I have called you friends," and "as I have loved you, love one another"). The context for that is that Jesus spent 3 whole years eating with them, teaching them, correcting/rebuking them when necessary, and doing ministry work together with them. That all creates a level of personal knowledge about a person that you can't find just doing public research about a public figure. That's the distinction I would make from how I think you're applying that verse about judging those inside the church to how Osman and Peters seem to apply it to publicly known figures. What anyone knows by their personal relationship with someone, yes, they can absolutely judge fairly, and brotherly love--love from an actual believer, for an actual believer--will be the context for that judgment. But we're talking about judging someone outside of that personal knowledge of that person, the way the apostles definitely knew each other oh so well.

[@austinh4709]

​@@StEpHeNno22the two are not mutually exclusive

[@StEpHeNno22]

@@austinh4709 The two of what? Believers loving believers as one, and believers judging believers as the second? I agree. I meant to articulate that very thing, only emphasizing that the latter shouldn't be without the former to begin with. The first makes the second biblical because it's love first, then speaking truth where truth is needed. If it's obvious how well you do the second, it should be equally or more obvious to that person how well you do the first.

[@pablomolina2942]

I'm a charismatic but I feel embarrassed by Storms and Brown on their lack of discernment and their unwillingness to call those false teachers and charlatans out. This time I agree with Peters and Jim.

[@robertrodrigues7319]

I’m a Baptist who is an EX Secessionist and I am embarrassed by Sam and Michael. I agree with you!!

[@caroleimani9754]

Cessationist.

[@WayneDomingo-Sambrano-xe4ff]

Totally agree

[@GabrielMartinez-su8di]

Agreed...Reformed and Continuationist/Soft Cessationist...I used to have some respect for Sam Storms but this was pretty cringe

[@theouterplanet]

@@caroleimani9754that too

[@ryanp8159]

This makes me love my brothers in Christ, sincerely despise unequal weights and measures, but most importantly, realize that we, at some point, probably need to turn off TBN and KZbin and dive into our local church.

[@crackinlackin6189]

but Justin Peters are on KZbin,livbe shepherded confrece on KZbin, Steven lawson does a live bible study on Thursday morning on KZbin..... so I wouldn't complete turn off KZbin at all..

[@joelmagee1616]

Totally thought this comment was going to end with “dive into our bibles” what a twist

[@caroleimani9754]

We can "dive into our local Church" as long as our local Church dives into the Bible❤😅

[@johnhoover7869]

One should study there bible w a purpose, prove a doctrine like cessationism. Prove to yourself that God is teaching you cessationism. Don't let Justin or some preacher tell you this using certain verses but rather prove it to yourself by using the whole counsel of God. I would add the most important reason to read is to know God, find out what God says unfiltered.

[@HvnBndKJV]

No matter how clear the evidence is they still refuse to denounce these false teachers.

[@MichaelScherer77]

Mmm they didn’t really give any evidence. They gave their opinion. And it’s up to them to examine them. You wouldn’t pass judgement in a court would you unless you examined the evidence. It’s the same for calling out false teachers.

[@adrftgvvbh]

​@MichaelScherer77 Benny posts his evidence online. He's a false teacher

[@joeeng1]

And when they argue that these brothers have never denied Christ etc.. it's as if they've never read Matt 7:21.

[@HvnBndKJV]

Agree the evidence is very plain to see. Remind me to have you Michael on the jury should I ever need it. LOL Justin peters has provided evidence on every one of these they talk about. To not see that is to have blinded eyes to the truth.

[@Pugilist928]

Are we really debating if benny hinn is a false teacher. If anyone claiming to be a christian cant see Hinn is a false teacher then they are greatly deceived.

[@JackMcLeodJr]

Essential and insightful discussion Gents. I have learned much from brother Justin since I discovered his works some time back, but I appreciate you all. We must expose the false teachers and guide them to the word of God in the scriptures.

[@TheDlaw84]

Keep em coming AG. This was good watching. Glory to God and His truth and name be glorified forever.

[@tinas7909]

Hearing them talk about not receiving healing due to a lack of faith or unrepentant sin brings back so many painful memories of words spoken due to my congenital heart defect! I have so much respect for Justin Peters sitting there listening to their words and yet remaining calm and kind to them! His comment about saving faith in Christ being the greatest is so true and every time Justin made a sound Biblical point about healing they came again speaking of faith and making some grandiose statements!

[@theouterplanet]

😍

[@smazey2309]

Your experience is irrelevant to scripture

[@tinas7909]

@@smazey2309 that is very true, but what did I say that was contrary to scripture?

[@irvinquijano]

Justin peters is the Man ❤

[@dianahe2814]

From my experience in Namibia and other Africans, the theology of the mainstream charismatic preachers on TBN and others is the mainstream of the charismatic/pentecostal Christians here. I was deceived for so long and I was incredibly hurt when my eyes were open to this and the fact that these preachers do so intentionally, to enrich themselves and fund their lifestyles. I built my life on that theology and had no basis for how to deal with suffering in my life. Thank God for graciously leading me to scripture.

[@stevenaguilera9202]

What kind of church are you in now ??

[@JonnoFly]

I had the same experience. Also lived in South Africa and now NZ. When I diligently started reading the Bible, the Holy Spirit moved in my life and lead me out of the mess.

[@frankielee5623]

Another fellow told us how he was deceived by TBN and by us. But what was it he was being deceive? He cannot tell. For he doesn't know for what he was being deceived. Another jump from a Frying Pan, now into a Furnace. Another fool.

[@davisgeorgemoye9689]

Thank you, gentlemen, for providing this. I was reminded that we should all be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to anger, that we must rely on Scripture, and, especially, our shepherds must be quick and ready to rebuke wrongdoing, for not doing so discredits God.

[@Maxandshe]

I worked as a physical therapist, and part of the routine was pulling heels of both legs to take pressure off the spine. No leg lengthening or influence from Jesus.

[@melchysomba9690]

Thank you. I was looking for an explanation and you laid it out perfectly.

[@esaiamasoane8171]

Does it give your patients permanent healing?

[@Maxandshe]

No permanent healing. Only change in lifestyle or habits, eg sitting, standing for too long, strenuous lifting etc. But it defo gave relief. Nothing like TW pretended to do.

[@wannafish1]

Well, finally got through this. I came out of the Pentecostal movement 9 years ago. There is nothing that will convince those who rely on experience over scripture. I’m thankful God brought me out of that.

[@wretchedpoet29]

Amen!

[@gud9706]

Pentecostal here. Amen! Scripture over experience 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[@righteousrebelmedia5934]

I come from the Pentecost church, miracles prophecy, healing faith knowledge, tongues, interpretation of tongues and wisdom and discernment of the Spirit are all scriptural. It’s not about coming out of the movement, it’s about practicing these gifts according to the scripture.

[@Nnjdl344]

God usues peoples experiences all throughout the Bible does he not??? Experience testify of Gods goodness and faithfulness, God uses our experiences… you can’t just throw them out

[@felixcat648]

Agreed ​@@righteousrebelmedia5934

[@valeriehancock1724]

I grew up Pentecostal and since I moved away from my own town, a (Christian) classmate of mine was dying of cancer and 2 people from my childhood church, said they had a dream that he would be healed. He was not healed and passed away. He was in his early 30’s with a young wife and 2 young children. I heard of healings that never happened. We know that God heals whom He chooses to heal. My mother dies as well, when she was 36 yrs old, with breast cancer. She was really hoping to be healed but was realistic and knew that God doesn’t heal everyone. There’s such a mixture of beliefs among Pentecostals and I’m so glad that my eyes have been opened and I am no longer part of that denomination. Thank you for your ministry Justin. I had the opportunity to meet you at a conference in Calgary, AB this past Fall.

[@ProphetGreg94]

Why would you think someone’s ministry that teaches false doctrine? Just because thought they heard from God in their dreams doesn’t negate the the truth of God speaking via dreams. You haven’t read the book called miracles, written by Dr. Craig Keener? There are medically verified, peer reviewed studies demonstrating the effectiveness of healing through prayer independent of the help of medicine. Believe the Bible, not your lack of experience.

[@caroleimani9754]

​@@ProphetGreg94 I believe God still heals today, but I don't think He HAS to heal anybody..We can't twist His "arm."😮

[@HusGoose]

@@davidwireback8621 absolutely not. you eisegete the text that was not speaking to partial prophesy at all. Prophecy is either from God and 100% true, from your flesh, or demonic. Either way, the one who believed they were hearing from God couldn’t discern Between the 3 options and prophesied falsely. Read His word in its terms to know his voice. Don’t add to it and condone those who engage in The unpardonable sin to fancy themselves prophets.

[@HopeOfChrist]

So because you had an experience that makes your experience the standard for all truth?. Christianity isn't based on feelings and experiences, it is based on the truth of Christ. Christ still heals, the gifts of the spirit are still around. As long as the church is still on the earth, the gifts are still around. Justin peters is doesn't understand the gospel, and he denies everything spiritual in the bible, I'm amazed that he still says he's a Christian. You can't believe in God and deny the power of God, that's ridiculous. And btw, I've had a sister who has been healed of cancer for over 15yrs, how'd he explain that?. Jesus Christ is king.

[@HusGoose]

@@HopeOfChrist Yes the Holy Spirit still works absolutely! No one who is Christian will dispute that including cessationists. Cessationists do not deny miracles or works of the Holy Spirit. It is the fake nonsense some charismatics claim are acts of the spirit that is the point of contention. For starters, “Tongue’s” aren’t charismatic babble we see. They are actual languages or the Lord opening peoples ears to hear their own native language in when you speak your own. Not tongues of angels. That is an eisegetical lie. Today it still happens in situations where the gospel goes out. You want tongues, preach the gospel on street corners and have someone who speaks only Spanish hear you in their native tongue. Then you will go home amazed at the true power of the Holy Spirit. Tongues are not happening self-aggrandizing, navel gazing experiences. Those are your words. Your hopes for someone and you are babbling like the pagans do. To say it is the Holy Spirit is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit, which is an unforgivable sin. Likewise, There is no such thing as a partial prophet (or getting some right and some wrong) and the last apostle died 2000 years ago. If we can all agree on that much we are far closer than farther apart.

[@annmariehalla9145]

This is by far the most amazing conversation that I have seen!! I am a USMC Ret. Gy Wife been around the world been there and done that and yes even in the church! I have experienced the Lord in so many personal ways ., until this day angels still visit me?? Oh but I can’t share this in the body of Christ because they can’t label it subjectivity, I get it I have never seen them but I sense n feel their wings every so often… He is the God of the Impossible, The King of Mysteries and he does have his Sons n Daughters that have ears to hear and eyes to see Though we need men and women in our body that research, I research and their research wether negative or positive will not stop History

[@LilacDaisy2]

52:50 - I gasped SO LOUD, when he said he was his best friend in the world. *This* is why you can't trust yourself.

[@glassworks4850]

A true prophet, like Nathan was, would receive a message from God about the sin of the man of God, as was in David’s case. But no “prophet” among the Charismatic circles who were connected to Mike Bickle have received a word from God that would’ve rebuked him from his secret sinful lifestyle. The Charismatics who claims to have “discernment” have not been so discerning.

[@TONyjustRoCks]

This "most godly man ever" talk from public Christians to me is akin to political correctness. Stop exalting men, and don't put your trust in them

[@Allen-L-Canada]

Sam said:"......I know this man to the depth of his soul." He obvious didn't know that man well at all. He just gives grace freely to everyone, and reluctant to call out some false teacher and charlatans.

[@laurenlimebrook9828]

AMEN

[@laurenlimebrook9828]

Very sad to care so little about the false teachers. @@Allen-L-Canada

[@docbarm3338]

I’m so confused by Sam Storms - he says he would never declare “Thus sayeth the Lord…” or “God told me…” it was EXTREMELY common in ihopkc and Mike Bickle did it himself and his own Ihopkc historical prophecy is BASED on “God told me!” It’s also a normal part of Bethel Redding teachings and many many other hyper charismatic churches!

[@Jackie.2025]

Happy to see brothers in Christ unite despite their differences. We need more of that! 🙌🏻

[@ChasCarter]

Depends on the differences, doesn't it???

[@jonahdav9589]

this was the problem. Michael fire fire fire brown is a false teacher. All this did was bring confusion into the camp.

[@caroleimani9754]

​@@jonahdav9589 WHAT CAMP??

[@CarlosHernandez-dt3gp]

​​​@@jonahdav9589you lack discernment if you think that, Michael Brown is most definitely not a false teacher, his problem is simply this, he doesn't want to call out what is evident, He himself, however, is solid even though I'm a cessationist, and to his credit, and he touched a powerful point when he pointed out the hypocrisy we have when dealing with Luther and how he dealt with Jewish people.

[@judithspaun9840]

@@jonahdav9589Give me a break!

[@annomario]

the prosperity Gospel damaged me to such an extent that i almost gave up on Christ, because i thought that God hated me because i was not being blessed like others who claimed to be blessed because of their giving; confessions etc. i only began to understand the Gospel when i got out of the Charismatic prosperity focused circles and church and learned to be content in everything and with everything, i give without expecting back...i am freee!!!!!!!!!

[@lisacarter6802]

🎉😊

[@emmanuelokon9162]

Blame it all on the 'prosperity gospel' while ignoring the jealousy and ungodly comparison in your heart

[@lisacarter6802]

Only God knows what's in the hearts❤

[@jacobmichaeljohnson]

In watching this video, I must say how grateful I am for all four men and it made me rejoice in the Lord. We need more of this kind of discussion among Christian leaders serious about following Jesus in word and deed. While I’m a practicing continuationist and found myself on the Brown/ Storms side of things, there was much to glean from both sides. I loved not only the various points of sharing, but the respect and careful listening that was given and received by all four. Blessings.

[@Obi-Wan81]

So you also think that Benny Hinn shouldn't be called out and is a genuine believer? Similar to Michael Brown. This is Benny Hinn who believes that are 9 people in the godhead and who has openly been stealing money from vulnerable sick people for decades in the promise of a miracle that never happens. When Jesus said, "by their fruit you will know them" - he was pointing out those that claim to be believers, but actually, do not know Christ at all. I do not know of any genuine believer who would do what Benny Hinn has done for years, and not be convicted of the obvious sin he is committing. Let's call it what it is - people like Benny Hinn are frauds. But if that is the type of person you want to side with - then that's on your conscience.

[@stephancilliers482]

Well stated brother! Agreed!

[@andyanderson362]

Thank you Gentlemen for this conversation. I believe this has strengthened the body of Christ! We all may have differences however, being able to converse peacefully, respectfully, and with brotherly love is more than admirable! May the Lord keep and bless each of you!

[@matthewfunk6658]

Man, I enjoyed this conversation. Thank you so much for the effort AND the grace shown!!

[@MrErskine01]

This was such a good discussion. The Church needs more of these kind of round-table discussions for the uplifting and growth of the Body of Christ.

[@landlockedpirate54]

I have nowhere near the scholarly or intellectual credentials of any of the men seated here on this panel. But I can say that I spent many years neck-deep in Charismatic churches, fully persuaded at the time, and I saw & experienced a lot of things. One thing, however, that I never saw in all those years was an authentic demonstration of any of the sign gifts that matched the examples or teachings of the New Testament. This gendered confusion and doubt. I finally came to terms with this reality and returned to my Baptist/Reformed roots and have immersed myself in sound biblical teaching. My faith is now rock solid.

[@williamphillips2239]

" One thing, however, that I never saw in all those years was an authentic demonstration of any of the sign gifts that matched the examples or teachings of the New Testament. "

[@jamesthomas12]

Justin and Jim win the reward on gentleness and humility during this conversation.

[@jeremydavis1267]

It’s not a debate son.

[@jamesthomas12]

@@jeremydavis1267thanks, Dad.

[@williamphillips2239]

And Brown gets the award for being a bully! My opinion!

[@williamphillips2239]

@@jeremydavis1267 It's absolutely a debate! It's a civil debate ...and not a heated debate ...but it is a debate!

[@graceb710]

Agreed! They were both calm and collected the entire time. They know God’s word backs up what they’re saying and that’s why they have that kind of peace.

[@robine1018]

Lack of discernment, big time with Dr. Brown and Sam Storms

[@tiscerano]

Wonderful conversation!! I hope to see more of these biblically based discussions happen.

[@maxmustermann1206]

"...I have grave concerns for those ...who can so quickly condemn others to Hell." - Dr. Michael Brown It's sad that Dr. Michael Brown didn't listen to what Jim Osman said. Jim Osman clearly said he was not condemning others to Hell, but judging them by their fruit, i.e. their doctrine and their behavior. Dr. Michael Brown says that Benny Hinn is a Christian, but Benny Hinn teaches the spiritual death of Jesus: "“Before He died, I should say, on that cross, something happened to Him which began the wheels of the new creation moving and that was this: He died spiritually...Jesus Christ understood that spiritual death is union with the Satanic nature.” --Benny Hinn If Jesus died spiritually, then Jesus ceased to be God. That is not Biblical. Can someone really be saved and repeatedly teach such blasphemy?

[@missnetta99]

That is Michael Brown’s go to line. If you disagree with any of his friends or expose their errors, you are condemning them to hell 😒

[@Grecofire24]

Amen brother, Justin should have used this to end the whole discussion of Hinn as a brother. His own nephew cannot in good faith call his uncle a believer.

[@ntlearning]

Calvinism teaches that God preordains people to hell. That's worse than Benny's error. And Benny is in error here. John Calvin encouraged the execution of Michael Severtus. Justin has no problem with John Calvin............. just saying.

[@maxmustermann1206]

@@ntlearning"Calvinism teaches that God preordains people to hell." Nope. That's a common misrepresentation of Calvinism. Calvinist teach that people in Hell are responsible for their own actions on earth. We are called to repent and believe. "That's worse than Benny's error." Teaching the wrong Jesus and the wrong gospel is a serous error. Benny Hinn needs to repent.

[@ntlearning]

@@maxmustermann1206 Max doesn't even know Calvinism and here's to show Calvin is not being misrepresented. BOOM! kzbin.info/www/bejne/jJPPZn1vgdGUp68 2:40 “By predestination we mean the eternal decree of God, by which he determined with himself whatever he wished to happen with regard to every man. All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation; and, accordingly, as each has been created for one or other of these ends, we say that he has been predestined to life or to death. “We say, then, that Scripture clearly proves this much, that God by his eternal and immutable counsel determined once for all those whom it was his pleasure one day to admit to salvation, and those whom, on the other hand, it was his pleasure to doom to destruction. We maintain that this counsel, as regards the elect, is founded on his free mercy, without any respect to human worth, while those whom he dooms to destruction are excluded from access to life by a just and blameless, but at the same time incomprehensible judgment” (Institutes, III.21.5,7, Beveridge translation).

[@SolaGratia.]

It's so hard for me to hear both those charismatic leaders show such lack of biblical discernment and absolutely zero concern for any of the sheep being abused and misled straight to hell by these false teachers and false brothers. But they take pains to defend the wolves who are devouring them. God have mercy on them and change their hearts. Show them the truth through Your Word and bring them to their knees in godly repentance. If they're not wolves themselves, they may as well be. They're offering no protection to the sheep and keep reuniting the wolves to the flock to ensure they never miss a meal.

[@garfunkle37]

That isn’t what we saw. Both charismatics said they’d agree he is a false teacher if the depiction were true.

[@SolaGratia.]

@@garfunkle37 Do you understand that calling someone a false teacher but refusing to have them step down when they do not repent of their false teaching isn't defending the sheep? That's them protecting the wolves at the expense of the sheep. A true shepherd gives his life for his sheep. These are merely hirelings, based on their own works.

[@jmanzew4146]

@@garfunkle37 But they don't. They say they would, but when presented with mountains of evidence, they still refuse to identify a false teacher. They just suspend judgment indefinitely with "well, I would have to talk to him first."

[@garfunkle37]

@@jmanzew4146 you say ‘indefinitely’ - that’s speculation. They have a record of calling out others in the past so the safe assumption would be that - as they said - if they had all the same knowledge they did then they’d agree. They’re more reluctant to jump to conclusions. There is no reason to extrapolate that the condemnation would be ‘indefinite’.

[@williamphillips2239]

Spot On! I agree 1000% They willfully ignorant and ignoring all the Biblical teachings of the ORIGINAL Apostles on this matter ...and using their "feelings" as a barometer! ...all the while defending and making excuses for these charlatans who are doing great harm to the body of Christ and especially to young/new believers!

[@friendshipchronicles]

Very well produced! Thank you for putting this on. Really appreciate the crew and participants!

[@reginagreen489]

I am shocked at the hesitancy of Storms and Brown to stand on the truth of scripture. They seem to be much more concerned about the reputation of unodly men than they are about the purity of the Gospel message. I'm not sure if I'll listen to either of them again. Their views make me sad for the church. So grateful for men like Peters and Osman. The Church is in desperate need for men who boldly defend the biblical gospel. Thank you both!

[@Drooblemeister]

Can you show me where they are not standing on the truth of Scripture? I would say while definitely not a salvation issue that cessationism is an unbiblical teaching and not standing on the truth of Scripture.

[@TheDanvilletrain]

It's laughable that they will attack Martin Luther in order to defend Benny Hinn. That's a massive red flag

[@reformedpresbyterianpulpit6745]

@@TheDanvilletrainyeah I thought the same thing. No serious student of history or theology would parallel Luther to Benny Hinn. Ridiculous.

[@Daniel-bu2vu]

I'm saying the same thing...but in reverse....I'm shocked of Peters and Osman hesitancy and closed hearts to the truth of God's word. Ears that cannot hear...and eyes that cannot see. But don't want to.

[@xiaoxiao5084]

i didn’t hear Brown and Storm are on Benny’s side… basically they just say that we should not be double standard in judging people

[@nataliewaters1029]

That Mike Bickel part didn’t age so well 😬

[@TheScottReedShow]

It’s actually sad, can you imagine how Sam feels. That has to feel like a kick in the…

[@theodorepaul2610]

Having met Sam a few times I can believe he'd feel sickened about it.@@TheScottReedShow

[@ericgatera7149]

Yep, tough. Same as all the Ravi Zacharias part on the internet didn't age well either.

[@mrich21087]

Because Bickel is in a pickle?

[@TheScottReedShow]

@@ericgatera7149 Ravi hurt all of us with his hidden behavior, very sad. His family is totally wrecked and ashamed because of him. These things are not funny at all and I hate these kinds of outcomes for the victims and families but most importantly the stain it puts on the message of Christ. Sad sad sad. BUT, God will not be mocked and will turn this into good for his Glory.

[@HK-xk9dx]

I believe the Mike Bickle section proves beyond any doubt Storms and Brown have serious issues with discernment.

[@crisjones7923]

Mike is an extremely unusual case. There are multiple bewildering aspects to that whole story, but Mike appears to be a case study in cognitive dissonance and compartmentalization.

[@nicolethompson8613]

​@@crisjones7923I am wondering how unusual it is though? It seems that often people try very hard to cover up a double life and are quite successful at it for long periods of time.

[@frankielee5623]

Mike Bickle had sins while in his earlier years, Justs like I have and is a common sinful testimonies of some of us. On one hand these Immature Calvinist told Joel Osteen to preach Repentance, also told us to teach Repentance and no now Mike Bickle listen and obey our Teachings, did Repentance and become useful for God, had a prayer Movements, now they hate Repentance of them in practical Life. Are these Calvinists Folks not idiot? Show me?

[@frankielee5623]

@@nicolethompson8613 .Our earlier lives were fraught with sins and failures ,were what were some of us, honestly .Do we have double life? We were told to teach Repentance and also live in Repented Ways, go Sin no more like Jimmy Swaggart and Jim Bakker, and Mick Bickle. Is that not Righteousness of them? They were Righteous.

[@JeromePissard]

@@esmeraldamendez37 Do you remaiber at what minute of the video is the disclaimer about Bikcle, please?

[@RebeccaJeffersonOAC]

I would fall under Reformed continuationist, but I thank you AGTV for releasing this footage. *Very* generous of you all. Looking forward to seeing this!

[@aljohnson5601]

This is one of the best KZbin videos I have ever watched. The friendly discussion, yet people holding to their guns but also willing to listen to one another was refreshing. Amazing!

[@helena.guzman4451]

Very good conversation. I really appreciate how respectful they were to each other. I find it a bit concerning how Brown and Storms’ justification for someone not being a false teacher seems to come from them “knowing” these people for many years.

[@Lilbirdie29]

You mean rather than weigh what they believe and are doing up against scripture?

[@LadyoftheBunnies]

Right! Like where in the Bible does it say that?

[@kennethgovernor2432]

Hello and how are you doing Hope you enjoyed the preaching by the pastor And hope you are having a wonderful Sunday

[@n.i.r.215]

This was extremely enjoyable to watch. We need more of this; thank you men for participating!

[@MikoColey]

Good conversation! I feel sad for Brown and Storms......they really don't see it. They just don't, or they don't want to.

[@blesswinjoy4146]

It's so wonderful to see these 4 gentlemen of faith sit around the table and talk about the most controversial topics with such humility and clarity. Thank you guys ❤

[@theouterplanet]

“You’ll be blown away about the quality of their lives and depth of devotion”. Dr Brown doesn’t understand a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

[@johnherrerap]

@christologian1518how?

[@HusGoose]

@christologian1518 wouldn’t go that far. Brown has an accurate gospel though he holds to the errant aquinian position of justification, a la prevenient grace. He’s an example of a born again Christian who hasn’t been given the gift of discernment, which is a gift… ironic because the very issue he has is an issue of the charismata. For this reason he should be corrected and only listened to so far. Like most charismatics, Brown denigrates church history and clearly is a chronological snob when it comes to Christian brothers of the past. Storms is an anomaly holding to both reformed theology and being a charismatic apologist defending their errant understanding of “gifts.” It’s frustrating we can’t all get on the same consistent page but that’s what sin does.

[@riobori1602]

Be careful calling, brown as a false prophet or false teacher. Brown, is a man of God. God have used him to bring Jews to faith in Christ. He is rich in knowledge of Jesus Christ in the old and New Testament.

[@johnherrerap]

@christologian1518 your gospel?

[@johnherrerap]

@christologian1518 your gospel?

[@gatlas720]

I don’t understand Storms and Browns perspective which seems to be affirming that you cannot judge a person by their public teaching and public persona and personal ministry affiliations.

[@tpw7250]

That's not the point they made, and both have judged public ministries by name. They just can't do it when they do not have the information and unless someone denies an aspect of the Gospel they do not want to say that person is unsaved.

[@gatlas720]

@@tpw7250 The point I was making is that Brown and Storms, when questioned about rejecting someone’s public teaching, appear to be hesitant to judge and reject that teaching or teacher without first meeting with the teacher and questioning them face to face as if years of repeatedly teaching the same errors is not enough evidence.

[@Obi-Wan81]

@@davidwireback8621 Do you really think the likes of Benny Hinn, Kenneth Copeland, Bill Johnson etc would be WILLING to sit down with the likes of Justin Peters or John Macarthur and be happy to be grilled by them on their clear misrepresentation of the gospel and obvious heresy?! Not a chance. You're living in cloud cuckoo land if you think these false teachers are actually willing to sit down with people who critique them and open themselves up to questioning. And why is that? Honestly ask yourself the question why these people are NOT willing to sit down with people like Justin Peters? I'll tell you why - because people like Justin Peters would confront them BY USING SCRIPTURE ITSELF. And the Benny Hinn's, Kenneth Copeland's and Bill Johnson's of this world would have ZERO DEFENCE and be shown out to the be false teachers that they are. So do you really think that these prominent members of the charismatic movement would take such a risk?! No!!! Lol. It would be suicidal for their entire career and reputation.

[@caroleimani9754]

​@@davidwireback8621 WHAT??😮.😮

[@caroleimani9754]

Sid Roth, not Said Roth..😮.....😮

[@jennesset1102]

The defense of “I don’t know them personally,soooo….” has no weight. Kat Kerr is crazy, but Sid Roth is a sane, great guy? Inconsistent.

[@theouterplanet]

Exactly.....Dr Brown's son in law, Ryan Bruss (who worked on Sid Rot's show) claimed to have visited Heaven/Hell...Dr Brown doesn't question him because he is a great husband, friend....

[@jennesset1102]

@@theouterplanet Dr. Brown is either willfully ignorant or has convinced himself that he has discernment. If someone is a skillful deceiver, then they tend to also be very charismatic and charming. The doctor is apparently easily won over.

[@genoz8880]

Exactly I was saying the same to myself. How are they so quick to call Kat Kerr crazy? Have they met her? Have you talk to her personally? They have such a double standard.

[@Romans_5_8]

@genoz8880 I wouldn’t necessarily call it a double standard as Dr. Brown has said he’s known Sid for over 40 years. You can however use your argument for Kenneth Copeland & Benny Hinn. Finding out a clear reason of why they both consider Kat Kerr a false teacher would’ve been insightful.

[@Batmarkman]

Yeah but on the other side despite being told the disgusting acts and words of Martin Luther the other two said “uh well uh well, nah sid roth is false but Martin Luther is not”

[@jacquesferreira4523]

I LOVE this roundtable! So much clarification from both sides. Bringing the different sides closer together...

[@HealingWord_Psalm107-20]

More of this! I love to see this brothers sitting down and talking. This is so much better than a formal debate.

[@frankielee5623]

Justin and Osman have declared Micheal Brown and Storms, in their own styles-and Defining moments- how they were Never Brothers in Christ. Let us be clear. Were enemies.

[@benbufkin81]

Imagine saying that you’re not defending Benny Hinn but you do for 45 min….

[@YouTubeaccount48473]

Seriously! I was so bored for the first half of this because it's all them going back and forth "not defending" Benny 😂

[@timothy6828]

So you're trying to get on Sam and Michael for "not defending" Benny Hinn but aren't mentioning the hypocrisy of Justin and Jim when it comes to Martin Luther?!

[@petermunyaradzimuzarewetu8089]

​@@timothy6828jim did when mb was citing his quotes

[@jim5140]

and they couldnt admit by their same standard, Martin Luther is also a false teacher and should be in hell. @@petermunyaradzimuzarewetu8089

[@jmanzew4146]

"I'm not going to defend Benny." *Immediately proceeds to defend Benny*

[@found.ernest]

😂

[@ChristinaBiasca]

Choosing to not talk back about someone isn’t defending them though.

[@jmanzew4146]

@@ChristinaBiasca nobody is asking them to say anything bad or untrue, just to acknowledge the obvious and undeniable.

[@ChristinaBiasca]

@@jmanzew4146 I mean I feel like they could come against them as teachers of falsehood. But they did say they think they teach wrong doctrine but won’t condemn them to hell.

[@jim5140]

no they didnt. citation please?

[@BeMoreAwareGodWatches]

Thank you gentleman for these very important controversial topics. I love that the four of you are not afraid to talk about hard things. ❤

[@willconstantinople6434]

Michael says he wants to be consistent. He has obviously put a lot of time into looking at Luther's words and life (he said he could list a large number of things, and had several committed to memory that he shared), yet has apparently devoted no time whatsoever to prominent (not fringe) figures in the Charismatic 'camp', instead consistently saying that he doesn't know them, doesn't know what they teach, etc. Which is more relevant - addressing the life of a man long-dead, and who cannot be challenged directly to repent, or to look at the life of men who are potentially fleecing the flock NOW, speaking falsehoods NOW, and are impacting the lives of millions NOW, and who could theoretically be brought to repentance?

[@MonLeeMane]

Brown is Meme worthy

[@willconstantinople6434]

@@MonLeeMane which is genuinely a shame - I follow him on social media, have listened to him on a number of topics, but when it comes to the disingenuous and fraudulent amongst charismatic leaders, I just feel like it's a thread he dare not pull for fear of what might unravel. I've never had any indication that he will challenge something within this camp if he's able to reasonably ignore it (sometimes he has no choice but to act, when even voices from his side of the aisle are making themselves heard).

[@Ginger_H]

He has a doctorate degree, I would hope he knows something substantial about Luther. He has written a stack of books about the abuses in the charismatic movement. Did he spend a multitude of hours researching and watching videos of every word some of these people say like peters does? No. That is the focus of what peters does, I’m sure Brown has other important ways to spend his time. He didn’t go on to talk about specific people, but the topic in general.

[@bretthennes-xk6dy]

Will ease up. You missed the whole point and are kissing the bottom of your Cessationism buds. The point he used I they won't call Luther a false teacher, even though he had horrible errors even doctrinal and hatred towards Jews which is satanic. Yet they are quick to throw every false teachers in 2024 to hell and codemn them. Ease up bro, he is also a doctor in theology, history and has been around the body as a leader since me and you were posing in diapers probably. Chill out

[@bretthennes-xk6dy]

You also know very little of how much he spends time with different people and does do research on them, false assumptions. The devil is the accuser bro, don't be like him

[@emmanuelmakoba6085]

This seems to be such a well done and produced program. Kudos to the producers for being fair to both sides.

[@kevinnash2444]

Thank you all for this discussion. I was Blessed. I hope you do it again

[@jeffsmith1819]

Fascinating discussion ! It’s good to hear a healthy debate. I am a continuist and pastor a Calvary Chapel in Oregon and I suffered from the word of faith theology but never rejected the spiritual gifts - I woke up, speaking in tongues! I’m leery of word of faith doctrine but I appreciate your charismatic stance. Yet I understand Justin’s cynicism and I’m glad he exposes these men. I can understand, justin feeling why they must not be saved because of the many practices that they have to glean money from widows, and very poor people, especially in Third World countries. But I do appreciate the fact that you said to Justin why don’t you look at the good things that are going on as well and that’s where we are at Calvary Chapel. we believe in healing, we believe in the gifts of the spirit we believe in the empowerment of the Holy Spirit. and there is truly a mystery to healing. I guess we’ll find out when we get to heaven why God didn’t heal the apostle Paul, for instance or Justin or Jonni Erickson Tata.

[@mbrdc555]

Brown and Storms hold up Mike Bickle as practically a superhero of the Christian faith. Sam Storms said Bickle is his best friend in this world. Storms said, “I know this man to the depths of his soul. I can’t think of a more biblically orthodox, humble, Christ exalting individual.” Storms and Brown believe all of Bickle’s stories about trips to heaven and visits from Michael the archangel. It’s almost like after this roundtable God decided to expose Mike Bickle for the impenitent sexual sin he has been in for all these years (the exact sin that Storms said would cause him to question someone’s salvation) and is using it to showcase Brown and Storms gullibility, and by exposing the gullibility of these two “intellectual giants” of the charismatic movement, He’s exposing the gullibility of the charismatic movement

[@williamphillips2239]

Well said! Brown and Storms both show an amazing amount of willful blindness when it comes to their "brethren"in the charismatic movement, IMO. Browns insistence on excusing and supporting Sid Roth is nothing short of astounding ...especially when you consider his defending Roth is based solely on his own poor discernment and his own "feelings/friendship" ...as opposed to what the Bible says about false teachers and false prophets. He seems to think his constant harping on Martin Luther is justification for his serious lack of discernment on Sid Roth. This is a very flawed argument or position. He even admits he doesn't watch his close and trusted friend Roth's TV show ...so how can he argue with Justin, who has ...with any credibility? Being loyal to a friend is admirable to a point ...but our first loyalty should be to God and his Word!

[@miriam450]

@mbrdc555 IMO it just exposes that Storms and Brown have been deceived and betrayed by their friend. Many had been deceived by their own spouses, the very person they would trust and know the most and still, because even if we do have a measure of discernment, we aren't God, with whole, perfect discernment.

[@williamphillips2239]

@@miriam450 True. We aren't God ...but when you give high praise and accolades to someone ...especially in spiritual matters like the ministry ...you should be darn sure you know what they say, stand for and who they support in the ministry, at the very least, IMO. I admit I don't have any faith in the Pentecostal/charismatic theology to start with ...but after watching this KZbin video ...I have even less and wouldn't trust Storm or Brown on any Biblical/spiritual matter ...and they are supposed to be the more traditional/less radical leaders in the charismatic movement!

[@1689SoliDeoGloria]

Well said!

[@BrianShannon547]

Amen brother!!!!! Well said!

[@charmainebruington3922]

Loved The way Justin Peters opened his Bible & gave me the Gospel

[@graceb710]

It never gets old!

[@Texan_Gal]

And he also defended Martin Luther about wanting to kill Jews.

[@Nnjdl344]

😮😂 he did???

[@paulstone8900]

What he did NOT do is open his Bible and provide a valid exegetical defense of cessationism. It simply does not exist.

[@van-khalidmcgee9881]

@@paulstone8900 exactly brother peters teaches false doctrine but yet he once to call everybody else a false teacher when their whole doctrine pretty much blasphemes the Holy Spirit cessationism is demonic aka doctrine of devils

[@JudeOneThree]

"Stand By Your Man" must be a favorite song for Michael and Sam.

[@fsommers94]

More like "stand by your 🐺."

[@jonahdav9589]

sadly, they are both themselves false teachers. 'fire fire fire' Michael Brown has a 25+ year history of false teaching and being an apologist for false teachers and Sam Storms nearly as long. What happened here was Justin Peters and Jim Osman were blinded, they bid welcome to false teachers, and are proving they can only see the wolf when they are in wolf clothes but not when they are wearing sheep skin. downgrade mess

[@braysibley123]

This discussion is such a wonderful idea. I'm thankful for everyone involved.

[@aaronhadley6480]

In the past I have Pastored a church for 12 years and I have served in Leadership with elders who were on different sides o fence when it comes to Calvinism and Armeniesm, yet we would sharpen each other as we united ourselves in the work of Christ. I have to say to the whole team behind this production as well as the hosts, well done! I think healthy discussions like this showed more brotherly love and honor than most situations today. This was well produced and thoughtful, I thorougly enjoyed thinking deeply about the discussions brought up. I appreciate all four Men of God (who I admire very much) for this very mature and Christian like dialog. Please continue with these types of forums.

[@pearcejayw]

Totally agree 💯, nowadays there are many "Theologians" who simply call other Christians heretics and teach other Gospel just because they have different Theological views on some things. Today, there are Calvinist Christians (not all) outright condemn Arminian Christians as heretics. Likewise, there are Arminians who like to accuse Calvinist ministers of being demonic people. My reaction is just like "WHAT... Please, STOP IT, we still believe in the same GOD with the right FAITH. Especially, we're all PROTESTANTS. We are all BROTHERS AND SISTERS IN CHRIST. Can't you just please STOP ACCUSING EACH OTHER??" 😮‍💨

[@gibin]

Really appreciate the American Gospel team for setting up this discussion.

[@rland379]

This is really good conversation, needed and helpful for the body. Unsure how Brown and Storms interpret 1 Corinithians 5-6, where Paul explicitly condemns people for wrongdoing in the church. He was neither there, nor had a “one on one” relationship with the wrongdoers to condemn their actions and remove them from the church. It was blatant, obvious and Paul stood on scripture to discern the sin and call it. He called for the church goers to not only admonish them, but “have nothing to do with them” if they were unwilling to repent

[@TojoZakatianariamalala]

Very good 4 solid hours of friendly and respectful conversation between two different sides of Christianity! Beautiful! This affirmed my charismatic position 😊 A Reformed Charismatic 😅

[@rebeccabirk3207]

so totally blessed that all four of you came together and talked so wonderfully!

[@John-qu9zd]

I struggle with how Dr Bown and Sam Storms can be so unaware and oblivious.

[@davidgaston6859]

It's intentional oblivion. I really don't like how they can't be direct and always deflect.

[@jpeffer1131]

They are not unaware and oblivious. This is why they and remnant radio are dangerous. They all belly up with the worst and think nothing of it.

[@Manbunmen65]

Because they are the same. Its the only way when Benny Hinn is on tv for decades saying and doing these things. Its obvious even to unbelievers.

[@kimmurphy72]

They have been massively influenced by “Big Eva”. They are “squishy.”

[@frankielee5623]

They were not Unaware. They have eyes open, it was you who were Blind.

[@biblicalecclesia]

These two brothers (Justin and Jim) are filled with the Spirit.

[@carlospadron488]

The spirit of Martin Luther

[@brucekriskovich4975]

Men who deny the Holy Spirit cannot be filled with the Holy Spirit.

[@23muffin]

😅😅😅😅😅😅

[@michaelharrington75]

Neither of them believe the Holy Spirit can heal them, and Justin is a Calvinist. Not sure about the other guy?

[@1gailanne]

a real conversation........by loved real teachers of the Word of God...who love Jesus and act like it. Thank you. Keep talking. We need the real and the Word defined.

[@theman12888]

Great conversation gentlemen! Praise God for discussions like this ❤️✝️🔥

[@samanthanichole6096]

Last year, I did a lot of research on Benny Hinn because one of my local churches (where my friends and family attend) was hosting him for a miracle crusade. I kept hearing from my own family that Hinn had repented, I told them he was still teaching the same things. It took me all of thirty seconds to search his KZbin channel and find a recent clip of him telling people to “sew seeds” (meaning give money to his ministry) for blessings from God. I am so tired of people defending him. He is still deceiving and needs to be called out for what he is- a wolf. A wolf who is preying on the Body of Christ.

[@AtTheDockOfTheBay]

Hi Sam, Hinn came to my old Word of Faith church in 88. Although I was on staff, I refused to attend the service, because I didn't like Hinn. Immediately after the service, the rest of the staff rushed Hinn to the senior pastor's office while tightly huddled around him so no one could touch him or talk to him. The sight of it made me sick. I didn't attend their stealthy conference with him, but the pastor's secretary told me later that the pastor asked Hinn how he generated such faith from the audience. Hinn said he placed "plants" in the audience to act like they got healed, which generated a heightened expectancy. She said pastor wanted to implement this fraud in our (his) church. Both of us didn't like that idea, and pastor never implemented it, thank God. That was about the time that the Lord used a book that the "church" secretary haphazardly turned me onto which opened my eyes to the false doctrines of the Word of Faith and their true origins (D. R. McConnell's "A Different Gospel"). Months later, I gave my two weeks' notice and left on good terms. Hinn is a fraud! Kenneth E. Hagin Sr., who mentored Copeland and other Word of Faith teachers, published a book several years before he died that basically exposed the fraud of the "hundredfold return" called "The Midas Touch." He first called all of the Word of Faith and prosperity teachers together, including Copeland, for a private meeting. He warned them to stop preaching the hundredfold return and told them why. Of course, they all refused to quit preaching it. None of them, not even Copeland, have ever mentioned that meeting with "Papa" Hagin, nor promoted their beloved mentor's book. As you read Mark 10:29, 30, you will find that Jesus says nothing about giving and receiving "money". On the contrary, it is the blessing of one who has "forsaken all" to follow Jesus as an apostle, missionary, or evangelist, to preach the gospel in other lands. As they would win souls for Christ, they would not "want" for family, because they would receive them as family. Thus, Jesus said, such would receive now in this time, a hundredfold "houses, lands, mothers, brothers, sisters, children, AND in the world to come eternal life." Eternal life cannot be received by giving money, only by giving one's life to and for Christ. The "sower" of MONEY does not exist in the Bible, but the sower of the WORD for the salvation of people does. If your family follows Hinn, show them from the gospels and Acts how neither Jesus nor the apostles taught the multitudes the things that he teaches. For instance. Ask your family to find a "sermon" by Jesus or the apostles where they told the multitudes to "sow seed" into their ministry and they would receive a hundredfold return, or their miracle, or their breakthrough, etc.? Or ask them, in which sermon did they teach the people that they would get their healing or prosperity if only they would "confess" it? Or, ask them in which sermon did they not heal someone only to tell them to keep confessing it at home until it manifests? Once they cannot find in the sermons of Christ and the apostles what their favorite false teacher says, it will open their eyes to their fraud. Any verse can be twisted. But their own sermons to the crowds proves their twistings of scripture to be a scam. The lives of Jesus and the apostles also prove the fraud of the false teachers false teachings. Example, where can you find in the gospels or Acts where Jesus and the apostles practiced confession equals possession? Where can you find them confessing "divine health"? or prosperity? or "money, come to me" (as Copeland and others have done)? or "I am a little god"? This is where you should hit pay dirt with them. It will put necessary holes in their dikes. I wish you well.

[@frankielee5623]

Which Church does not ask for Offerings and monies? Given what you have assess, then all Churches of God were Wolves. Or, only your Churches don't collect Offerings, don't ask for monies. Can you tell me the name of your church, now to prove you were Right or you are a False Witness and a slanderer of Benny Hinn?

[@eric_sandstrom]

@@AtTheDockOfTheBay nobody is going to read all of that

[@AtTheDockOfTheBay]

@@eric_sandstrom I didn't write it to you.

[@frankielee5623]

I heard Benny Hinn, he has repented of Sowing Seed money.

[@skenth11]

I so hope the four of you become good, and LONGTIME, close friends! This was a masterclass on how this should be done...and the topic vitally needs to be discussed in the church! My inclinations are more with Brown and Storms--I am a scholar myself, and have some idea how little any one of us can know, and I think even if one **specializes** in studying and exposing "false teachers," there should STILL be MORE teachers you are aware of that you CAN'T comment on, than those you can. Even so, my respect for the other two in the conversation is very high after this exchange! Peters and Osman were great and gracious as well! and, they probably moved me *a tiny bit* in their direction, even if mostly I remain about where Storms and Brown are. But for sure, this was a masterclass on how to do this kind of exchange!

[@rjcm2212]

I aooreciate so mcuh about this 1, that you still put it uo even knowing that since filming things about Mike Bickle would come out and it would possibly make Storms and Brown look bad but this is really humble. 2. The discussion on what constitutes a False teacher, is it a lack ofcorrect doctrine only? or does it also. as Brown points out, extend to the way people are relationally. Luther may have had theologically normal conventions but to advocate hatred and murder is not the heart of Jesus at all, 3. I loved how respectful and peaceful this was, how I wish there were more forums for respectful, truthful debate. So much has been stolen with the exposure of people, thinking here of Ravi and this kind of video is doing a great service to the global debate. We need discernment.