An Ancient Civilization Without Wars? | Harappa (Indus Valley)

[@icebergtheoryx]

I've never been able to forget reading about Harappan bricks years ago. (Yes, my interest in Harappan/Indus Valley civilization started with brick-making) ... But making this video made me feel a sense of renewed optimism. That's a feeling in short supply in our present times. I hope some of that feeling comes across in this video.

[@VivekBisht]

in current time afgan and gandhar of that time which west called indus and dozen different name really.. i strongly believe with strong evidences that civilization there were far far far older than modern archeology tells us..cant write a essay here.... great content though.. i hardly see much content made on this.

[@THEGLASSMANSWORLD]

Thank you for sharing this info! I'm curious why you say there is no history from 7000BC until around 3000BC when many know of the history of Krishna being here around 5000BC. And the Indus River is named after Indus, also known as Hindu. The Indus are the Ancient Hindu. And I'm pretty sure those aren't toys, but more like dieties for offerings to different altars. You have me curious now how this all connects together in our pre-history to the birth of Jesus and the mass following of the Bible. But most don't look at our history and connection to God prior to the AD/BC timeline. I'll be researching more now! Thanks for the inspiration and good luck with your new findings as well!!

[@THEGLASSMANSWORLD]

I found this right away! kzbin.info/www/bejne/f5y3gXd-qLWcqq8

[@icebergtheoryx]

@@THEGLASSMANSWORLD Hey, thanks for stopping by. When I say "no history" I'm being literal in the strictest sense of the word. Certainly there was a culture and traditions and all sorts of stuff happening there. I'm just saying there are no written records contemporaneous to that period. So again, being literal it's a prehistory period by that standard. Hope that clarifies my meaning a bit. Sounds like you're opening a whole new level of inquiry and connections and that's awesome -- stuff I hadn't even had in mind when I put this together. I hope you really enjoy your research journey.

[@cjmacq-vg8um]

i know what happened to the Harappa. they built spaceships and got the hell off this planet before their wonderous and peaceful society was corrupted by a-holes who tend to rule and oppress the rest of humanity. they're probably the one's sending UFOs to us now but are too afraid to make contact. and who can blame them? it was the Harappa who declared planet earth the insane asylum of the galaxy. i'll tell you what. it really sux being one of the few sane humans left trapped in this insane asylum called earth.

[@PopGoesTheology]

Fascinating! Thanks for your hard work, Jay. Looking forward to the next one.

[@proudwhitesettler7746]

I just subscribed, hope your channel takes off.

[@icebergtheoryx]

Thanks for the sub. I'm going to keep working at it. Researching the next video already!

[@BSIII]

Hopefully I'll be alive to see the Harappan script/s to be deciphered.

[@icebergtheoryx]

Let's hope so for both us. That would be an incredible wellspring of knowledge if it were deciphered

[@cskcmp5009]

It's dechiperd Tamil

[@BSIII]

Nice, I enjoy finding new channels at their start. Subbed

[@icebergtheoryx]

Awesome, thank you! I do too, I've found a lot of good stuff on smaller channels as well

[@Wolfeslad]

This was a pleasure to watch. thanks for putting this together, I like your impartial presentation skills, please keep making these and possibly a field trip or two?! Either way, you have gained another sub good sir 💚

[@icebergtheoryx]

Thank you very much. There's more on the way. Field trips? Now that's a really good idea. I think that's a very realistic possibility in the not-too-distant future.

[@Lea-rb9nc]

There is much we should learn from them. They didn't have the time or inclination to be destructive. They were too busy being creative. What a wonderful world...

[@jonswap9097]

The messages were short because they were on tiny seals - in other works they were receipts of transactions. They probably say something like "50kg wheat grain - sold 26 Jan 3500 BC" with a corporate logo corresponding to the trader or city franchise it was sold by. The reason for concluding that the script was a phonetic language is precisely because there are so few different characters - in English we have only 26, unlike picture writing Chinese script which has thousands. Another reason for considering it to be a phonetic script is lexical analysis of inscriptions comparing those found in the Indus valley with those found in the middle east. These show a different statistical order and frequency of characters in the text, which is indicative of the same phonetic characters being used to write out text in a different language. Perhaps the reason that war was not prevalent was because the culture was a mercenary trading culture, and the scale the civilisation with cities competing with each other meant that cities needed each other to sell their wares, and buy raw materials, food etc. In a dictator took over any one city, it would be impossible to keep its skilled craftsmen from running away to other cities and the city's value would disappear. No one dictator would be able to conquer the whole of the Indus Valley Civilization, so the only option would be to fall in line, and attracting the skilled craftsmen to work in your city would have required construction of good quality housing with good sanitation etc. This is the kind of situation that led to the development of democracy in ancient Greece and Rome - there the aristocracy could not control the ordinary people in the city because they needed them trained and armed to fight to defend the city, which prevented the aristocracy from controlling them through force of arms. The situation in the IVC may have been similar, but based on money, skills, and the ability to walk away from your employer if you want to. The lack of religious icons may also reflect this mercenary culture reminiscent of the modern era, where money matters more than religion, and where the people collectively control money and trade and do not want to spend it on unnecessary white elephants like statues and religious icons - or maybe the houses were provided by the corporate entity for skilled workers and they didn't want to waste corporate funds on statues or religious icons. I think it is also wrong to assume that the brick cities are all there were. It is possible that the brick cities were the industrial estates of the time with the walls intended to provide security from theft rather than war, with poorer people lining in villages of mud huts elsewhere without all these mod-cons and these mud huts did not survive to be found.

[@icebergtheoryx]

Lots of food for thought here! Thanks! I'm not sure about receipts per se, but I did see a number of researchers advocating something similar to what you're describing -- that the seals were used to mark goods/ownership of them or where they originated from. Anything like that really makes sense. Good point on the language. There's so much debate and conversation there, too. There are people using the number of characters as evidence both ways. I'm very curious to see what the next decade or so holds ... If the seals are receipts or labels, it seems like there's a chance some other object might be found that uses the script for another purpose then right? That's my thought at least given the longevity of the civilization. Very interesting interpretation. Sounds like labor would have been very powerful in your conjecture. I don't think it's assumed the brick cities were all there were, but as you point out, the odds of finding some of these things is lower. Reading your theory made me wish there was any sort of manuscript or something that could clarify the picture! Maybe some more finds and excavations of workshops will shed more light.

[@VivekBisht]

4k 5k years back you said.. this gives me chuckle.__ regarding most of indus history as myth dating back 10k years.. .. the level west has gone to over shadows depth of eastern civilization is probably more impressive than history of civilization itself.. glad to see you coverings this in such great detail... respect!!

[@icebergtheoryx]

Very true. I love Roman history, too, but Harappans had come and gone before Rome was even a village. It's an awe-inspiring timespan. Thousands of years ... hard for my mind to even truly appreciate that timescale sometimes.

[@nnes759]

Yes Harappa & its predecessor by near2000 yrs, Raghikhari are very impressive undoubtedly, But then there's the ~6000+yrs old nearby Sumeria civilization (of Mesopotamia ,current Iraq) that had much more pristine structures, wall carvings, more images, with many similar advancement of tablets, stamps, equally vast tradings + large scale tablets record keepings& their language already deciphered too. But The oldest structure/ city sites of them all by another 3k-4k+ yrs are, Göbekli Tepe of Turkey & Jericho site of Jordan region( that had been re built a few time above on top of previous structure too) there are few bit smaller ones too, but arguably these few older more sites may be lacking the many trades& artifacts.. advancement of Sumeria or Raghikhari-Harappa sites perhaps.

[@nnes759]

Rumpelstiltskin/ others, there are few(3-4+..) cave art/ paintings found in India most ~ 8-9000bc old incldn Bab.. or Bhib.. one, another Ambadev.. one 25kBC, very old. The one of 9k bc older one had dancing Nataraj like drawing too, But we must be mindful of 2-3.. I.e, 1) caves were one of the oldest homes of ancient humans of HomoSapien& even Neanderthal, oldest cave arts found are 45-50k Bc old in Indonesia then 2-3, 35k-40k Bc ones in Spain France, Russia etc then many 8k bc to 30kbc are all over. 2) these are indicative of large movements of early hunter gatherer humans & start of their growing I.Q & culture etc, 3) Earliest farming dates back to 12000bc + in west Asia, i.e. Turkey, Jordan, Israel Then bit later in Europe, Iran etc, As to India ~7600 Bc Haryana ( same period by 600-700 yrs of Raghikhari start that's the largest& oldest Found oldest of All Harappan Like butp Civilizations but Raghikhari is near Delhi in Haryana) Note the Cave Arts pre dates Farming& Civilizations of structured cities, etc by 10s of thousands of yrs. 4) As to Mythology, almost Every Oldest civilization nations & few others too, appear to have Mythology & mythical figures, but NO any Archeological Evidehav's been Eover never Found so far e.g. Greeks have over 175 myth Gods, all of Europe, Egypt, China, India, Africa etc have many Flying or fire throwing Horses, Lion gods, foxes, elephant, Hanuman/ gorilla, etc , Then sea horses, Half animal half human, multiheaded lions, snakes... Then there are many saints/Gods, like, Moses, Rama,Arjuna, Khali Devi, Egyptian ones, African ones, 175 Greek ones, etc, Also so far, NO any EVIDENCE for any other much older ancient earthly kngdoms than Turkey Göbekli Tepe or Jordan Jericho or definitely Zero evidence so far ever found of any under water kingdoms like super famous Rumors of mythical Atlantis, Dwarka or Alien kingdoms etc oldest Civilizations. At least so far nothing is older than the above several Archeologically found Cities, farming areas & Caves . But indeed we all hve wistful hopes that that they must be here that are older, Since several Powerful excellent High IQ-High intelect Fiction writers of 3-400Ad -900Ad have written these epical stories with naming/ referring many existing cities like, Athens, Rome, Varnasi, Ayothya, Alexandria, etc, etc these writers to be abe to write Epic Stories , they must have had evidence or had God gave them Magical Pens.... I'm hopeful there will be civilization older than Raghikhari( but several more newer than Raghikhari or Harppa have been unearthed in North & south India, including in India & southern Russia for Chariots used by Jamnaya Arians, I believe, thats ~ 1-2000bc old same time Jamnaya chief Indra& his entourage arrival time) will be found in Iran, Iraq, India etc, (Also if I'm no erred, The DNA of Harappan & Current Indians are pretty much similar too as all the original people did arrive from the same 3 apath/ areas e,g, Iran, Africa, Europe since 10k_29k yrs back on ward & inter mixed in India naturally) Also as to world oldest farming Era times of. 9000-12000bc is matching to Turkey, Iran etc area too But India should be Happy to have the most probable odest continuous (Siva based Hindu) Religion that survived to now from ~7000bc Farms arrival & Raghikhari city establishment times, at least.

[@rajasphadke3995]

I think you should read about works of Dr. Vasant Shinde, dr. Manjul to know about Rakhigarhi and sinauli. Dr. Shinde says the rakhigarhi civilization signs can still be seen around the villages nearby. Dr. Manjul talks about the shield helmet swords and the chariots found in sinauli. A lot of studies talk about the indian texts and archeological findings in india. Read about micheal danino on sindhu saraswati civilization. Your lecture just puts together older studies and interpretations.

[@nnes759]

Jay, you are very thorough well compiled, good voiced, humble delivery of this highly fragmented info that are in many different books/ vlogs etc into one good vlog... I just subscribed) Also 2 below comments mentioning a) Harappa had no religion b) wondered about another recent found site named Keeladi, these are definitely falls part of my comment too. There are definitely few very relavant & important 3 other very recently discovered sites that are indeed scream at us to be expiored/ dug into (no pun..). These three very recent ancient sites that were discovered in the last 20-30 months are : Oldest ever in India & few times larger than Harappa & cream of the crop of them all is, Raghikhari, that's dated to be~6000-7000 yrs old (~1 hr N W of Delhi in Haryana state) ; then bit smaller & only~1000 yrs BC old is Aditcha-nallur( discovered E of Madurai, Tamil Nadu) ; & near to it, several Km SE of Madurai is another site is called Keeledi that's only 500+ yrs BC old. The most interesting/ intriguingly all these 3 ancient sites ( maybe or maybe not) are : very, very similar bricks built, patterned, etc just same as Harppa& Mohenjadaro, that you, just described in details above, e.g., with toilets, sewer, central pool, roads, farming, similar potteries, artifacts, dyes, metals etc etc that are seen/ un earthen near these sites too, also all these ancient civilizations apparently built & abandoned near dried out river side locations too. Although these 3 sites are ~ 2yrs recent hence only 10-20% excavated. Further interestingly at Raghikhari, they already found 5 skeletons with one thats DNA testable, that of a female DNA which found to be matching to an Adivasi designated aboriginals group peoples in Tamilnadu state DNA too. SO There are plenty of Dots come above surface screaming to be connected & to be spelled out by Anthro-History experts soon. In my humble ametuture religiuos, history etc "enthusiasts" opinion ( could be greatly premature but cannot control oneself not connecting these great many dots in my own enthusiastic ways) is that : Upto today, Raghikhari probably was the oldest& biggest original city that got started the big spreading of Harappa & Mohnj..etc civilizations All those cities (along with Sumerian, Babylonian civilization etc) all must have started abandoning their lands from these near by geographical areas ~ 1600-1700 BC times probably due to same climate/ volcano/ quake type of disaster, famine, etc reasons covering the whole region or so. And Probably the main chunk of people of North India at that time started moving towards South India, naturally & there, they instinctively re-created the same/ simiilar infrastructures around Madurai etc with similar tools, artifacts, farming, clothes& religion, i.e. Sivaites, who worship more primarily Lord Siva ( his avatar Pasupthi), his female half- Parvati, Sons Ganapati, Skantha etc deities that are also super prevalent in TamilNadu, Karnataka, Kerala, Srilanka etc, for last 2000+ yrs too( along with indeed worshipping somewhat less regularly, comparatively due to less # of vishnu temples that arrived somewhat later via Vedic based peoples arrival & the further many deities like Vishnu, Laxmi, Indra.. etc that came in there after). I'm also of the belief that probably there will be at least 1 or 2 more similar sites will be discovered that would be older than 1000 Bc but shorter than-1600 BC (the time period when above Harappa, Raghikhari etc people started abandoning to march to south via Andra& Karnataka etc into Tamilnadu, Kerala etc).....

[@nnes759]

As to my above strong claim of Saivite Hindu Religion was in practice at Harappa /or in the just 10-20 % only completed other 3 new sites, that definitely came from somewhat over arching assumptions or perhaps based on some factual & repatedly found Lord Siva's well known Pasupathi seals(/ tablets) etc seen in most of these sites & along with one other seal/ tablets from one or two of these sites (÷ in one another cave site that few millennium older & in north Indian cave in arts form only, both of these artifact or drawn-art both depicts another famous Sivas avatar, i.e, the dancing, the Nataraj one, also note Siva-Lingams artifacts were too found in few of these places. From these + some unconscious fast, steep jumpy assumptions, that Harappa etc are obviously look similar to Savite Hindu traditions of the last 1000-2300 yrs unearth documents + known oldest several temples' images too. Note that, the oldest found writings are ~2300 yrs old (or narrowed down to 250 bce to 150 ce period) written couple of Tamil preserved dry palm leaves written literatures/ docs called tamil Sangamum that included Tolkappiam & Agatsthiam both had several more sub titled literatures, history, hyms etc writings depicts some Saivite Hindu background historical events or mythical dramas etc ( some of these from my memories of 2-3+ decades old books + newer 1-2 yrs back web docs re reading in recent times) How ever, I do realize as Jay phrased it (as did few historians too) that there's none or lack ofno strong evidence of any definitive religious rituals or ceremonies or significant monuments, etc. said that perhaps none of most historians or archeologists have taken serious looks into few of these following significant 3or 4 signs or indicators such as, 1) the central pool or so called common bath facility, Definitely looks like, the very similar ubiquitously found, so called blessed Temple's sacred/ Holy Ponds, that are all over (on the side of or direct.y near the main entrance of) most big Saiva Temples in Tamilnadu , Srilanka (& possibly in Kerala& Karnataka& other states Temples too ( other states viewers Please do comment). These Holy Ponds are very very similar looking to Harappa & MohenjaDaro Ponds too, (people can use Google earth to see Madurai Temple or any other known big temples that they can think of( Kanji, Cidambaram,.Tanja ur,...etc) 2) the pyramid ruin may as well could've been the ancient start of attempted Kopura tower for the temple where under which the deity chamber( s), fire pit etc would be existing but this ruin not excavated yet 3) Also, oldest& original most Hindu temples were often found under long surviving banyan tree like spots with either small chamber under the tree or Lingam (or trident set up under that also known as trishula) Probably we may have to wait for the other 2-3 not super old but total copy cat built two Tamil Nadu latest Hareppa civilizationssites excavation completions, perhaps.

[@icebergtheoryx]

Thanks for the kind words and the really detailed commentary! No kidding -- it feels like the surface is just being scratched in our understanding of the Indus Valley Civilization. I looked into Rakhigarhi and you're right. It seems like it could be a huge site! It seems like there's a ton of work to be done there before there's much conclusive. Are the mounds there Harappan era? I've seen some articles on both sides, but I didn't read too deeply on that one, since there's just so much information alone on Mohenjo-daro and Harappa it made sense to focus on that. I agree the similarity of building materials and style is incredible and points to some kind of unifying feature, although the how and why seem pretty mysterious ... I think one of the interesting things about ancient history is that amateurs have made a lot of connections and pushed the discipline forward whether in actual excavation or interpretation of texts or the editing of them. I think we won't for sure until we see more excavation of those sites but yours is a really interesting theory. I know I'm going to be reading a lot more about Rakhigarhi in the future. Again, this is just a feeling, but I think there's going to be an explosion of knowledge about this civilization and it might affect the understanding of other cultures in the era and region. But that's just a gut feeling/wishful thinking. Thank you for giving me so much to think about and continue to read about

[@nnes759]

Jay, Possibly During or at the end of your readings on Raghikhari please do read up what the archeologists+ other parallel ones wonderments/ statements over the near Madurai found two Harappa mirror imaged structured sites of Aditchan..& Keel(z)adi in many aspects, including observation of some possible newer techs+ some dye based products & trades based items, approximity to river beds that leading to harbour ports etc etc( all from my memory of reading ~1 yr back). Do note Madurai sites have high probability of getting completed earlier than Raghi.. due to the two different political/ culttural enthusiasm towards these north & south sites & finance capability etc ( its my instincts based on few ongoing debates/news/ factors etc. Hopefully you would have some edge in doing one of these most completing site vlog etc ahead too.

[@shambhugangwar7900]

Your comment was reading fine till you started putting in unsubstantiated and highly presumptuous religious bull shit.

[@Changeisneedofthehour]

loved ur video .......from india.....make a video on dwarka (icity under sea now)......it would be fun to watch

[@icebergtheoryx]

Wow, that's a great suggestion. I'll have to read up on it, but I think that would be another interesting topic

[@helveticaneptune537]

We don't know that the harappans called themselves but there is evidence the mesopotamians called the land Melucha, there was extensive trade as seals have been found in syria and iraq

[@impudentdomain]

There are huge leaps of logic here. Lack of things that are obviously centers of gathering in no way indicates there was no religion nor hierarchies. If they did not fight much that makes them unique but if they never had to ever fight that makes them supernatural.

[@georgethompson1460]

Ritualised form of warfare, I mean stone maces where found and those were common weapons of war throughout the early bronze age.

[@mahoganyballs2296]

Feel like a lot of things have been overstated and overemphasized. I've literally read hundreds and hundreds of history books and what i find is there is always little consensus when it comes to the details. One should always use peer reviewed sources and read the dissenting opinion to get a better idea of what is established fact and what is speculation and wishy thinking

[@ryanwills-37]

To think these ancient people had such a conscious understanding of hygiene yet throughout the middle ages in Europe it was somehow forgotten

[@giw_jones]

It wasn’t.

[@nnes759]

Good observation & very accurate too. The warm& cold climate definitely would've played the main roll, as I recall in many of my Hindu history books or the spellbounding myth etc dramas of 300-600Ad onward written ones often talks about purifying oneself in Holy rivers/ temple front seaside etc, as river dipping etc are routinely done/encouraged ; while colder Europe then& till 20th century, frequent bathing during 7-8+ cooler months would've been not easy without big pots heating water etc, except in mid summer in natural water places, etc

[@hydrolito]

Norsemen observed hygiene.

[@Anshulhe]

Harrapa is centralized government because of uniformed measuring system everywhere so it's obvious they have very high centralized control but thing is that centralized government maybe not be monarchy

[@discombobulation3016]

Can you make a video on the tamil people such as the Sangam era and then the Chola Empire Era it will be great to watch

[@icebergtheoryx]

The Chola Dynasty certainly merits looking into. I have only a little about it, but what I read is interesting and merits digging deeper. I'll see what source materials I can find.

[@fahmidapatrawala9346]

Why do Indians have to rely on foreigners to tell their history...hahaha

[@sdasgupta1950]

The wonder of the IVC is that such a civilization was even possible that survived for thousands of years. Maybe we can again build another such a classless civilization that can survive with peace & prosperity for a long time without the strife and wars that seems to be common now.

[@shambhugangwar7900]

We can defintely build such a society again.

[@captaincodpiece3263]

Excellent documentary on a fascinating yet little known civilisation, perhaps this is partly due to it’s such an “odd ball”, not following the standard pattern of priestly kings in elaborate temple palaces at the centre of things with large bodies of armed people to protect and extend their rule and that of the class they hail from. I’ve read of putative connections with the Sumerian civilisation based on DNA from 4 skeletons from the Sumer period showing a connection with inhabitants of the Indus Valley of this time period. Writings if discovered could add or disprove a relationship between the two groups

[@icebergtheoryx]

They've always stuck out in my mind for the reasons you mentioned. Thanks for another thoughtful comment. It's a shame that Indus remains are so rare -- more DNA evidence would add a lot of clarity to movements and migrations, etc.

[@peterkavanagh64]

Thank you

[@icebergtheoryx]

Absolutely!

[@Iambrendanjames]

I really wanna know what role Jirolft, and Marhashi play in trade between the Harrappan Civ, and meso civ. It's the smaller cities, I think, that link trade that tells the broader story of bronze age trade and maybe earlier. Trade is literally the blood of civilization.

[@georgethompson1460]

Do these estimates of population include the hinterlands or are just the confines of the city?

[@icebergtheoryx]

There's some extrapolation going on with the estimates. The populations of the cities are being used to then estimate the total/rural population. This book review (page 1) breaks down one scholar's methodology using Mohenjo-daro as an example: journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/2348448919834799

[@nefertitib4313]

I learned abt the indus valley mohenjodaro and harappan civilization back in 8th grade history lessons in indonesia 😂 i still remember it

[@icebergtheoryx]

I don't remember talking about ancient history at all in 8th grade! Sounds like you had a pretty good class

[@samsha2932]

Have you done any research on Mehargarh civilization in Balochistan? I think this civilization is most neglected civilization. If you get any material do share with us in your channel

[@icebergtheoryx]

Very interesting site! Definitely on my radar

[@facesbykusuma]

I enjoyed your balanced approach to your commentary on the history of this great civilization. However, I do want to have an opportunity to further discuss with you the very last bit about the war like people that came in. This is an area that needs to be discussed as entire previous commentary before that you discussed based on evidence, but you did not really discuss much about any evidence of this war like people coming from outside. If you have the time, I personally would like to discuss this with you.

[@nomanor7987]

Will we ever decipher the Indus Valley Script?

[@icebergtheoryx]

Maybe we can draw some optimism from this breakthrough on another script, Linear Elamite. Pretty interesting progress to read about: www.smithsonianmag.com/history/have-scholars-finally-deciphered-a-mysterious-ancient-script-180980497/

[@jimwilliams3012]

Why have you chosen to use « Harapan civilization » and nit the « Mohenjo Daro civilization », which was the standard way of referring to the Indus valley civilization?

[@icebergtheoryx]

Almost all the sources I saw use either/both "Harappan" and "Indus Valley Civilization," sometimes interchangeably. I've also seen Indus River civilization. Harappa was the first site of major excavation so for a time that was the standard naming convention for the civilization. I'm not sure where you're seeing it referred to as the Mohenjo-daro civilization, but I went with the majority consensus and tried to use the two most common terms (Harappan and Indus Valley civ) to avoid adding more confusion. Since we don't know what they called themselves or their lands, as I mentioned, the names we use are a convenience to us.

[@tahesi7232]

Who were the people that populated the Harapan civilization. Were they like the ppl now occupying the area?

[@nnes759]

before Internet time, history books said that there were burial sites& From borne & facial features etc the Harappan people looked probably similar to now i.e. mix of Meditranian & Austroloid featured people ( light, dark & medium skinned people as now!) Burried side by side before casts etc invented! e.g. cast started well after extinction of Harappan people during (or after) vedic period!

[@bapparawal2457]

@@nnes759 Stop spreading your agenda . All your information is false.

[@bapparawal2457]

Harappan people were same present day people over entire Indian subcontinent.

[@almitrahopkins1873]

Bricks being nearly identical means the same frames were used to make all of them. It isn’t a terribly advanced technology for the time. The lack of weapons could just mean that the weapons were taken when the cities were abandoned. The lack of weapons as grave goods is unique, but it doesn’t point to them being entirely pacifist, as has been speculated. There has never been any civilization lacking in things as simple as a knife, which would be considered a weapon.

[@cosmicsindhu6311]

Maybe some day we unlock the text and learn more.

[@icebergtheoryx]

Let's hope so!

[@judasvigilante]

Excellent video JaY.

[@icebergtheoryx]

Thanks!

[@rameshpohekar2751]

Can you make a video about the Keezhadi civilisation?

[@icebergtheoryx]

I'll confess my ignorance on that one. I'd be starting from zero with civilization. But I will look into it and see what I can find out. Thanks for the suggestion

[@nnes759]

Plz read my comment ~ Keeledi, Adichanallur& cream of them all Raghikhari connections

[@nadeemsiddiq7636]

Thanks so much for this video!!! I wonder if the Harrapans moved (ie., were driven southward) either due to natural disasters and/or climate change or due to impending Aryan threats. Have there been any DNA tests to perhaps identify descendants who may have ended up in different parts of the world? Thank you again.

[@icebergtheoryx]

Absolutely -- thank you! That seems to be what modern archaeologists think happened, some sort of natural disaster or combination of them displaced the Harappans. Of course there's debate about when and what exactly. From my understanding there's a lot of challenges with DNA evidence in the region due to climactic conditions (heat and humidity). You might be interested in this article about DNA evidence and the Indus Valley people that touches on some of the research and challenges.

[@bapparawal2457]

@@icebergtheoryx Aryan Invasion theory has already been disproved.

[@MrVanillaCaramel]

Maybe a high-quality religion? Similar to Buddhist Tibet?

[@steenfuglsangjespersen8620]

Det nægter jeg at tro på. Vi er alle født agrasive

[@bapparawal2457]

Harappa civilization has another river Saraswati. Its riverbed was proved by NASA's images. It's extinct now. Cities like Rakhighari were closer to Saraswati River. Many researchers Call it Saraswati - Sindhu civilization not just Indus civilization. So please update the information.

[@icebergtheoryx]

It seems the consensus is still Indus or Indus Valley, although many still refer to it as the Harappan. And as I pointed out in the video: We don't know what they called themselves or their lands. So in any case, the naming conventions should avoid confusion as much as possible

[@johnkelly3886]

In order to have that level of standardization, the must have had a centralized decision making mechanism. That is what a state is. Whether it was democratic, or a an oligarchic council of merchants, I do not know.

[@carminefragione4710]

Wars are the result of mercantile cities arising along rivers and seaports, where farmers brought their wheat and barley grains to store in a great temple built as a store house for grain, and offerings were made to the storm gods for rain , etc. And then competition arose among City States that acquired Kings supported by the Harvest Lord and the Temple, which were called BAALS. and the Harvest Lord was "Mar Kat" in Tyre and Sidon, along the Levant Sea that now is the Mediterranean Sea, so this MAR KAT is the root of the term "MARKET PLACE". So when humans became Farmers and dealt with trading commodities, those Cities of Store Houses became Thrones of Kings, and then Wars arose from seafaring competition for the harvest and the arable land, and the paying of TAXES to support a CITY Market Place. Those are the real facts.

[@peterkavanagh64]

Rationed foods right nfor the person and the seasons. If a human from and a species' meet a ballanced human that means no fight no need for exchanges just respects and chat in the most part

[@dwarasamudra8889]

The Sindhu-Saraswati era of Bharatiya (Indian) Civilization was certainly remarkable. So many connections between modern-day Indians and our ancestors from 5000 years ago from things like religion, clothing, cuisine, iconography, stepwells etc.

[@manashchakraborty4005]

Saraswati? Harappa yafir Indus Valley Civilization bolne me maut aati hai? Pata nai tum jaiso ko kya hi chul machi rehti hai saare ancient chizo ko apna claim karne me 🤷shyad isliye ki tum logo me itni insecurities hai ki aajbhi tumjaiso ne jo so-called vedic yug bol k Mahabharat,Ram yafir Kishna k name pe jo ghalmel kiye hai unka koi archeological evidence nai milta. Khak connection hai Harappa & modern day India me. 2500BCE me bhi unke yaha proper water supply, drainage & sewage infrastructure thi jabki India me aajbi log sadko & track k kinare haagte mutte hai. Aaj k Indian cities me drainage k to kya hi kehne k 5min baarish me pura seher doob jata hai jabki sewages me aajbhi SC ST community k log manual scavenging karte huye mar rehe.

[@eungeneman1841]

Clothing?

[@manashchakraborty4005]

@@eungeneman1841 Well if you look at the sculpture of Priest King of Mohenjo-Daro then it resembles chivar or robe worn by Buddhist monks with the right shoulder open

[@hawkingdawking4572]

Don't lie. Indus civilization has nothing to do with the current propaganda-ridden Hinduism.

[@hawkingdawking4572]

@@eungeneman1841 he is lying. Indus civilization is a lost one. The proto-Hindus had very few clothing, architecture, cuisine, iconography or any kind of technology. The '5000 years old' thing is a Hindutva political slogan.

[@mikesheth5370]

They were neither great warriors or Empire builder. Chances are ancient Egyptianand Babylonians left them alone . There must be understanding not to destroy harmless folks. Iron Age and those cattle herd owners vandalized and destroyed the m!

[@nnes759]

Apparently all the known warriors like Babylonian, Egyptian, Greek or Roman army etc came about 500-1000 yrs after Harappan extinction There's 2 theory about Iranian Mountains Hittites around 1k-2000 BC or same period Steppe Jamnaya warriors. the Hittites suspected as 1 possible cause of Sumerian demise, while Jamnayas also known as to the Aryans who did arrive under Warrior chief Indra's & chariots army around 1000 BC (before or after the much Passive/ Godly vedic Aryan peoples arrival to Himalayas regions), any of these 3 were more likely than Egyptian/ Babylonian/ or equally mighty Asyrian army etc or it was probably just the almighty once in 1000 yrs Natural disasters including humongous Volcano clouds, earth quake+tsunamy or hot-drier famine spell etc for 10s of years.!?!

[@mikesheth5370]

@@nnes759 Thoughtful comment. Even in Bronze Age there were empires but Harappans were exceptions. Aryans of india were always war like . Their Vedas, epic time wars and expansion in south depicts it in great detail.

[@jamesstevenson7725]

This is the earliest known Dharmic civilization

[@nnes759]

The high indicator to that can be seen with the repeatedly found stamps/ tablets with lord Siva in Yogic Meditating posture on top of Sacred Cow called Pasu also this postured diety called Pasupathi& its widely well known & worshipped in several regions of India today too, mostly without cow but sitting on deer skin & same Meditating posture etc.

[@nir2661]

It's not Indus valley Civilization, it's should be called Saraswati River Civilization.

[@cskcmp5009]

Stop drinking Soma it's indus river

[@vg2812]

you got some facts wrong, in a recent excavation a female warrior's burial, copper helmet has been discovered buried alongside a sword, spears and a chariot with copper studded wheels.

[@AthenaNKnight]

7:20 The answer lies in the drill marks in the skull earlier in the video. Did they find the tools that made those marks? I bet they had a weapon akin to todays firearms. Small effective made of material that didn't last thousands of years. Without religion all things are possible.

[@nnes759]

There were religious symbol of lord Siva's(Shiva) one well-known avatar, I.e., meditating yoga positioned ( on top of Bull) deity found in all Harappan identical other 3-4 latest excavations sites found from neighboring Hariyana in North India to Madurai Tamilnadu in south India, this particular yoga pose deity god is called Pasupathi & Pasu means the ever famous sacred cow( seated deity).

[@impudentdomain]

if they had no religion that would make them totally unique among all peoples who ever existed, so I am going to assume that is false.

[@icebergtheoryx]

Hmm ... Idk. They seemed to have slings of some kind based on the findings of small projectiles, and they had some basic weapons and hunting tools but there's a lot of debate around this topic too. I don't believe the journal article indicated the find of the surgical tool, but the writers believe the skull trauma was initially caused by a blunt object -- stick/club/etc.

[@mindatrest6838]

India is incredibly ancient.... They were ancient Indians.... They called their federation of states Meluha..... The mesopotamians who traded with them knew them as Meluha....

[@icebergtheoryx]

They certainly go way back!

[@dwarasamudra8889]

Can I ask why only Pakistan has been hashtaged though? More than half of the Sindhu-Saraswati territories and cities were located in the modern day Republic of India. New studies also suggest that the Saraswati river was also more important and densely populated than the Sindhu River. "Ancient Pakistan" is not really a thing either. Its like saying Ancient United States of America to describe the history of the Native Americans. The territories known as modern-day Pakistan was just North-West Bharatvarsh (or India, Jambudvipa, Hindusthan, Al Hind, Yindu or whatever you wanna call the Indian Subcontinent).

[@icebergtheoryx]

Just an oversight as I'm dialing in tags and seo and all that good stuff. I'll add some more tags and maybe it'll help cast an even wider net

[@amarrajputpunjab]

Modern Indian has nothing to do with old India Old India today's modern Pakistan,Modern India has only adopted the name of old India and is stealing the history of old India which today the world knows as Pakistan, the history of old India belongs to Pakistan and not to modern India.

[@bapparawal2457]

@@icebergtheoryx Just for your information. Pakistan was created in 1947. As Muslims in subcontinent wanted an Islamic country . So they have massively destroyed lots of historical temples as well

[@cskcmp5009]

The Indus harrapan civilization is Tamil...DNA ancestry proof and the script matches keeladi kodumanal adicha nallur of Tamil Nadu.The Pakistan and North India are occupied territories by Aryans and Arabs Persians

[@kbrv89]

Are there any papers proving to prove that? If not then shut the hell up!

[@Scorpionsoull]

Btw whatever culture these ancient people used to do we still follow same in india ... No one talks about it

[@georgethompson1460]

Trepanning isn't unique to Harappan civilisation pretty sure we have evidence of it all the way to before the Neolithic.

[@icebergtheoryx]

That's true. The evidence of where it appears and when has been used by researchers to help figure out the spread of prehistoric peoples and the dissemination of early surgical knowledge. So according to the research paper cited, "First Evidence..." the Harappans may have been the first in India, possibly in Asia, to practice it. And the skull found seems to push the dating back more than originally thought. Here's another link so you don't need a JSTOR log-in. It's a quick read and good summary. www.currentscience.ac.in/Volumes/100/11/1621.pdf

[@amarrajputpunjab]

This is the real India which the world knows today as Pakistan

[@nnes759]

WHAT!

[@kanishkkumar5431]

U r r8 actually ...sindh and punjabi area of pakistan r the origin land of today's hinduism. .... and indian culture started from these two area....but sad invaders totally changed their identity

[@nancyvolker3342]

war caused the end they could not defend themselves

[@brobsty1856]

I don't think kids don't have gi Joe's anymore lol

[@icebergtheoryx]

Haha, fair point -- that was a reference from my own memory banks -- but you get the idea

[@vikranthbadugu3568]

finally not clear

[@jamesstevenson7725]

They spoke Sanskrit!! They were the earliest Vedic people!!

[@brianmiller5444]

obviously built by aliens! 😂😂😂

[@icebergtheoryx]

Haha, well, that would certainly explain a lot, although I think it would probably raise a few more questions ...

[@raghavantheerthagiri7888]

I like how Westerners with very litle knowledge of Indian culture and religion take upon themselves to comment about their opinion on the Indus Saraswati civilisation. You need to be a Hindu to really understand the artefacts and seals. Which is why even a Paki is clueless about the culture because they have nothing to do with it. Indian text records thousands of years of conflict and conflict between city states, republics and kings before th Maruyans around the Saraswati and SIndhu rivers right upto Gandhara including the battle of the 10 kings in the Rig Veda which resulted in the defeat of the Iranic speakers and their migration west.ALl the subsequent cultures in the Indian subcontinent are descended from the Indus Saraswati cutlure and carried their religion and culture including worship if Durga, Shiva/ Rudra/ Pashupati and the Vedic sacrifices (Vedic fire altars were found in Indus cities like Kalibangan). Every westerner using fraud genetics and can be interpreted anyway oly deserves our total contempt.

[@icebergtheoryx]

Ancient history is for everyone, regardless of background. I hope I'm misunderstanding your comment, but you seem to be implying that only people of certain backgrounds should study certain historical topics. I vehemently disagree with that sentiment. That seems to me a very slippery slope. Should only people of Greek descent study and talk about ancient Athens? Are the pyramids only for Egyptians to learn about and wonder at? That would be ridiculous. And crazy. That's a surefire way to silo off knowledge, cause stagnation in study and research, and crush people's enthusiasm and passion. And it also assumes that ancient civilizations were somehow developing in isolation -- which was very much NOT the case. The last thing we need is more division. If someone wants to research and explore any historical topic they should be free to do so and encouraged to further their knowledge without proving some genetic or sociocultural connection to whatever part of history intrigues them. There lies madness.

[@raghavantheerthagiri7888]

@@icebergtheoryx Yes its absolutely true. You don;t know Indian texts. Don;t know the cultural context, the language and you claim to be experts on who the Indus people were and try to preach to us, the descendants. You dismiss Indian texts showing dynasties with lines of at least 3-4 thousand years older than the Mauryans as myth just because they do not fit into your Aryan migration theory which you are desperate to hawk. How can the entire Vedic age with Astronomical and geographic data and geograhich data just be dated to 1500-1000 BCE? Plus the Vedic people and the Indus Saraswati culture occupied the same region in the same time and you say they are separate. WHat bunkum. Indus pottery persisted till 1300 BCE well after archaeologial data of cities such as Varanasi, Girivraja or Hastinapur are available.

[@kanishkkumar5431]

@@raghavantheerthagiri7888 hey its a fact...vedic civilization started from 1500 bc it's was the time when ivc already started to declined. ... the battle of 10 kings happened near raavi river of pakistan around 1300 years ago and it's in the indian syllabus of ias that mahabharat war events where happened near 900 bc ..which comes to as legends

[@raghavantheerthagiri7888]

@@kanishkkumar5431 Do you know how ridiculous you guys sound? he entire gamut of dynasities and kings such as Ikshvaku, Yayati Bharat, Sudas, the Haihayas, Panchalas, Kurus,Raghu, Ram, Shantanu etc, lines that span several thousand years Ydushthir Jarasandha and even their descendatns for several hundred years exactly lasted from 1500 / 1200 BCE to 800 BCe which is the dawn of the historical age. Reread our epics again to understand the changes in just Vedic Sansrit that happened from the beginning of the Rig Veda to the Middle Vedic period which corresponds to Avestan timframe to understand how old VEdic civilisation which is the same as Indus Saraswati civilisation is

[@bapparawal2457]

@@icebergtheoryx Problem is old western historians have hidden huge details and facts to suit their agenda. New information have emerged from new research but western Academia rejects it cause it comes from India.

[@BobWebb1066]

of course it is a language, or else how the hell would they have built such amazing structures?