How to define the Draw Length for the Poundage of Your Bow?

[@Leverguns50]

I agree with what you’re saying, measure it where the arrow pass is in the arrow should be to the back of the bow

[@MartinaDotzler]

I started with archery 8 weeks ago , so I am nearly completely a newcomer. I have an American longbow and a metis buck trail (saw your review). First bow is said to have 35 p second 25 p. And I have 29 inches arrows with 2 different spines and a draw length of about 26 inches. And Armin , in the moment I remember your sentence in one of the videos - or in more - go out and shoot some arrows. And I am not fixed to mediterran release but with the metis also thumb release is possible. Later I guess it will get more important but in the moment 25 p is fine 35 gives me a harder time and I guess both are about 5 p less for me than said. But: thanks so much for your virtual coaching, it helps a lot - it is fantastic! In the archery club (mainly string walkers and recurve) they are wondering how to hit target with these „techniques 🤣

[@corujariousa]

Thanks for the video! It's been a few years since I had the pleasure of practicing archery but one factor I believe affects the draw length (and position used to take the measurement) is the type of bow used. You covered traditional Eastern bows (I really like them). For competition Western bows, with a "clicker" at the handle (can't remember the correct name of the thin metal palette), I believe we should consider the tip of the arrow for the measurement, since the entire arrow is drawn (to pass the clicker trigger point indicating the arrow release point/moment). All the best to you!

[@martynaustin8073]

Safe journey! As a new archer, you have inspired, entertained and educated me...I hope to meet you, one day, as a fellow traveller.

[@ambidextrousarchery]

Fascinating, thoughtful, and helpful. Thank you, Armin. Enjoy your time back in Malta 😊🙇🏻👍🏹

[@TNTnor]

This argument could be completely wrong, but I think bow builders/bowyers measure the drawlength of their bows from the belly of their bows because of one thing: The bowrack. When you Armin was in Malta you tested string angles and drawlengths on a bowrack mounted on a wall. Logical sence would be that this rack starts measuring from the belly of the bow, since every bow, no matter the design, lies on it with the back pointing upwards. Then the bowyer can test his/her bow during the prosess of making it, especially if it's a selfbow

[@ArminHirmer]

The bow rack started always on the back of the bow

[@alananderson5202]

Back. Always the back of the bow. I’ve crafted well over 70 bows.

[@TNTnor]

@@alananderson5202 Thank you. I clearly had my mind mirrored when I wrote that comment. Was I otherwise not far from the truth?

[@DanSantanaBows]

Some do it that way. I typically measure from the back. Unfortunately there is variation so it’s worth asking each bowyer individually. I measure from the back because I draw the base of the nock to the back of the bow. I would argue that it makes sense for archers who overdraw to the middle or belly of the handle to measure from there. In other words the best place to measure is the arrow. If you draw a 28” arrow all the way you have a 28” draw length. Not everyone measures like that but I think that’s the least confusing and most compatible definition

[@timmclaughlin6214]

Armin handing out the knowledge today. Take it and apply it.

[@yunwiyawaya8593]

I'm shooting 31" with a 50 lbs Mongolian Horse bow . I got the bow in a kit online . It's my first bow in years. I got serious shoulders injury and stopped shooting for years. I gave my bows away. Starting all over again. It's been difficult to say the least. Oh , I know very little because I just went to the bow shop and told the owner that I needed arrows or whatever and he made them up. When I shot compound he turn my bow up for hunting season and for summer and 3 d shooting he'd turn my bow down. Shot with release ,sights,and overdrawn. He did everything for me. But of course I always had my recurve. My compound was a Pearson Flame and my recurve was a 45# Pearson. As a result of him doing everything for me I know nothing. Yes I was a Pearson fan . But this go round I only wast to shoot the short powerful as can horse and war bows. I have no one around me to help teach me . I only have you guys on KZbin. I tried shooting thumb draw and I haven't been able to do so.

[@yunwiyawaya8593]

I just looked at the vid with the new tartar bow you got. That's one of the bows I really want and shoot. But like I said I have no idea what I'm doing.

[@jtp480]

I had an ides that all bowman's measured the amo length from the back of the riser. But it's easy to find out draw the bow using a scale to its amo and check the poundage against the manufactures mark.

[@jedgurley]

The pretty one was paragon right? I'm in love with the Solak! That alibow is pretty sweet too

[@scetchport]

Thanks again Armin, I'm old but still learning..

[@TakalBrothers]

Thank you for the awesome content. Very helpful

[@orlyg1521]

The "Back" meaning the front side of the Handle? I have measured from the "back" (front side ) of the handle, makes sense since that is as far as I would draw

[@ThorDonner-gw7eq]

Dear Armin! Maybe it is the translation, but it is the power of the bow, the length of the draw and the length of the arrow. I measure the power of the bow from the inside, the length of the arrow is determined by the length of the draw (for me it varies depending on the style) + the thickness of the grip (I don't measure the tip either)...

[@CarlDWardJr]

If you use broad head tips, which is how for arrows were originally made to be used with bows, the arrow needs to be long enough not to cut your fingers when drawn. So, 1 inch to 1.75 inches past the front of the bow where you hold when shooting, makes the most sense.

[@alananderson5202]

Absolutely.

[@matthewvassar9686]

Thank you for the information. This is always been a confusing point to make. I'm wondering if it would benefit to house 2 or 3 different standards. AMO for those with a shelf, A separate one for those without a shelf, and a third, one for compound. I'm not sure, but AMO and compound might work out the same. I've never shot off of a shelf, so I am just brainstorming here.. Thank you so much Armin!

[@christoftauchner5123]

inside of the handle. makes matching various bows with arrows easy, measurement easy to read with eh measuring arrow. but foremost it is YOUR drawlength regardless on how the handle is shaped. it reaches from the string to the where the hand is on the bow handle. that should be the standard, I'd say

[@mikehunicke5061]

On the Bose that I build, I measure the brace height from the belly side of the bow near the top of the handle. I measure the draw length from the back of the bow where the arrow would leave the shelf. Some of my handles very in thickness, so the 28 inch arrow that I measure from the inside of the knock to the Back of the arrow the point I mean to the back of the point that’s where I measure 28 inches but because my handles vary and I come to the same draw length each time I don’t pull an arrow I pull the arrow the same distance, but it always doesn’t measure the same based on the back of the bow where the back of the arrow meets the back of the point.

[@agamagreen]

I always measure with a measuring arrow (with no point): when 28” marking of the arrow reaches the bow back is my 28” draw length. This makes sense, because my arrow length shall match exactly the desired draw length at this position. No middle of the handle or maximum outward point of the handle or belly side. We should keep it stupid simple. 😊

[@stuartmackay9270]

Good Oint "shoot directly through the centre" a short video on shooting from centre or offset, upper and lower limb length and design, does it matter?

[@ArminHirmer]

I guess when it bugs me and I have several conversations about this topic, it might matter

[@stuartmackay9270]

@@ArminHirmer I look forward to that conversation....

[@tomp6548]

Draw length should be measured from the two consistent points of contact with the bow - the belly, where it sits on the palm/draw board, and the peak of the string, where it sits on the thumb/scale hook. This way if you were to freeze a person at full draw and place a variety of different bows in his hands you would find him drawing them to the exact same draw length. Measuring based on the arrow is terrible because relative to these two consistent points: - Nock location changes based on string angle at the thumb, gap between arrow and thumb - Tip location changes based on grip shape, hand size and placement The same supposed draw length on different bows could have your body in a variety of physical positions.

[@stuartfyfe9887]

I have a ktb 48" bow (40lb), could you tell me the arrows that i should be useing as its so confuseing grain/spine etc thanks very much

[@gordonallison1055]

AMO is great if you're shooting a recurve, everyone knows what it means. Doesn't work for Asiatic and English longbow. I believe the latter is to the back as standard, it's less certain for Asiatics. The only time it's important though is if an archer is at safe draw limit, and a bow isn't happy there, whether it's slightly under or over. Thanks for raising an interesting discussion point.

[@Schunkelbruder1963]

Pretty cautious approach 👍 Taking the middle of the arrowpass (as the bow has one) would be an alternative. Otherwise there will always be weird examples of handle shapes (e.g Living Arrow bow) ...

[@darrinrebagliati5365]

I've been told too many different things. By different instructors, manufacturers etc. I came to this conclusion last year myself when watching an arrow making video. Arming my 30" arrow with a broadhead and drawing to my draw length of 29" slices my finger if I measure to the belly of the bow. I use a 30" bare shaft to make an arrow, adding nock and tip to the length. I usually shoot a recurve or longbow. I started watching while trying to figure out how to deal with nerve damage that won't allow me to hold a string in my fingers or thumb. A string of over 25lbs that is. I've had to go to a release but don't like it. I may have to try lefthanded.

[@crazyhandyman2668]

thank you

[@UncleDanBand64]

There is a standard. 1.75" in front of hand contact of the grip. To me it makes no sense. It should be from the handle. I think AMO set it like that back in the day based on the average clearance distance required.

[@harrysutton4183]

AMO standard gives a "Standard" for quick reference. What matters to the archer is draw weight at his/her draw length.

[@ArminHirmer]

what if one bowbuilder takes measures the poundage of your bow from the belly, the other from the back. You order the same bow and get different poundages

[@mattredfern1339]

aye off centre back from the base of the head where it meets flesh on the bowhand. otherwise why not measure from the tip?

[@robsarchery9679]

Thanks.

[@TimeofRagnarok]

From where the palm sits, simple.

[@markroberts6971]

It would appear that most would be concerned with safety while drawing the bow. Having the tip behind the front of the bow would generally considered an unsafe draw. Bottom line, who really cares if the variation of an inch changes the draw poundage by more or less 1 1/2-2#? Would be convenient is all of the bow makers could agree on one method of testing, whatever it would be, and measure all bows by that method.

[@tyrantwitness2482]

Draw length should be to the back of the handle, but when ordering arrows, the shop requires the arrow length which is your draw length plus 1.75", which is the AMO. When ordering always quote the AMO to prove you know what you are talking about. Oh and arrow length is from the botton of the nock groove to the end of the shaft, not the point.

[@ArminHirmer]

1.75 with modern recurve bows and stuff, not applicable to reflex bows with very different grip designs

[@tyrantwitness2482]

Armin, do you have a video on grip design please?

[@ArminHirmer]

@@tyrantwitness2482 nope, what would you like to know about it?

[@andrewsock1608]

You should always leave room for broad heads so always measure from the back of the handle

[@Face-bb5ix]

IMO the first question is: why make a standard? I think the idea here is to make bows comparable in performance and suitability regarding body strength. Here I already see a problem: some bows are meant to be drawn further than classic western-style bows, like what you already mentioned with the Korean ones. I'd propose to work out a standard where the intended operation is the number one principle. Your idea of measuring from the shooting position instead of a fixed geometric point already goes into that direction. Also the concept of measuring from the bottom of the tip relates to that, because normally it is intended to not shoot your own fingers. I'd even go so far as saying no measurement is necessary, anyway. Just give poundage at intended full draw and have each bow-builder describe what intended full draw actually is, this would aid the performance comparison concept the most. A customer would then know what to expect from e.g. a 40 pound bow, provided he uses it as designed.

[@ArminHirmer]

When you oder lets say a 50# bow at 28" it matters if the bow builder takes this measurement from the back or the belly of the bow as you get different results

[@Face-bb5ix]

@@ArminHirmer Yeah, I know that it is like so right now. My point was that the pound-at-length metric isn't a meaningful one to start with... for a customer. The idea is: if you order a 50# bow, you should have been able to see the description of the shooting position and intended draw-length for this bow. As an example, if you order a Korean bow, you would see a description showing the classic shooting position on top of the (often) bulky handle, with a 31" (or 32", 33", whatever that bow's full draw should be) arrow's tip laying on the index finger. For that position the poundage is given. This way you would be able to compare bows in respect of physical condition necessary to use it as intended. The saying "this is a 50# bow" wouldn't need "at 28" for comparison anymore, because the later part is determined by the bow design. Even for designs with a huge usable draw range, it would mean "at full draw". I guess the bottom-line is that the bowyers should explain how we should measure their bows, especially if we want to check their specs. It would just make so much more sense if they also do it in the user-focused way described above.

[@N0rnagest]

Does it matter that much? As long as you reach your own draw length, have arrows of appropriate GPP and spine... does it really matter when shooting asiatic bows if you have an inch of 'extra' arrow protruding at full draw? I mean the Koreans developed methods of shooting much smaller than usual arrows so they could use anything found lying around on the battlefield.

[@ArminHirmer]

yes it does and one needs to know where the bow builder is taking his measures as example.

[@fabiochiarenza3539]

io preferisco misurare a +1,75 per essere in sicurezza con le punte da caccia a due o tre lame.

[@jasontsang2232]

Solution: Do away with draw length and just measure bow by power-stroke. There will be no confusion if everyone use powerstroke instead of draw length

[@ArminHirmer]

yet we have different draw length to take into consideration

[@fathor9047]

I measure from the middle of the arrow pass.

[@alananderson5202]

If you’re talking with experienced bowyers the standard is from the back. Otherwise, you’ll create absolute confusion. Everyone needs to be on the same page.

[@matthewyu3531]

Hi, would you show us how to measure the length of the riser of the Asian traditional bows? I am trying to make a Tatar bow and I was told that the length of the riser was 8 inches, but I don't know how to measure the riser( from where to where). Thank you very much.

[@俞恩理]

How to measure the brace height?