Archery FAQ: Mongolian release but arrow on the "wrong" side?

Willy came to me with the question how this might work. I tested it and here you see my result.
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[@aslof1069]

The Mongols use these techniques while not riding. Because they have control over the arrow. this is why they use both sides. On horseback, thumb release, the arrow on the right side is essential to control the arrow (or it will bounce and drop) and to hit targets accurately.

[@jareth7456]

I love it ,the people who say you can't do this or that because of paradox can just shut up now ok got it folks you can shoot any side of the bow with any release, so there .

[@Fudmottin]

Shoot arrow on the wrong side and miss. Well, heck! I don't need to use the wrong side to miss!

[@chafikmoalem358]

Was wondering as well ... until I started thinking: - Mongolians shoot like this on their competitions (not from horse back, but standing). Long(er) distances with those blunt and wide and relatively heavy tips... "Instinctive" informal aiming does not work so well when the target disappears behind the tip. Heavy arrow on long distance needs as much draw length as you can get. Having the arrow on the same side where your eyes are makes aiming easier because line of sight is closer to arrow axis! (yes, they do AIM, some of them even closing the other eye!) Having the feathers touching your face points to "aiming" as well. I have seen some even making pointed lips to flatten their cheecks to get the paralaxis as good as possible! - I noticed that AFTER my own excercise trying to find out what "instictive" shooting actually really is: like with clean release and bowhand muscle memory "instictive" shooting is kind of muscle memory for always looking right! For me it makes an immense difference where my pair of eyes is in relation to the string/bow line. For me I get best results in turkic style when I fixate the target with my eyes as if they themselves are shooting. The slight bend of the knee forward, the falling into the shot which automatically gives you a slight khatra, my right eye (at least) peeking to the target from accross the string line when shooting turkic (now I know why turkic prefers around 28" draw, lol) ... and boom! So ... I think for their type of competition shooting they have optimized/formalized the "instinctiveness" a bit. - From horse back they still do shoot the same way as the turkic way known and taught today ... for the known reasons of arrow handling, timing and speed. so ... thats my two fils 😉

[@서대문이대길]

There was always a question about Mongolian justice, but after watching the video, I got to know for sure.Thank you my friend.

[@mittag6326]

Ive watched video from some holiday in Mongolia that was filled with archery tournaments, and literally everyone shot like that.

[@cdbc4023]

Brilliant, I love your videos.

[@azizizul720]

Mongolian style...one of unique style among eastern archery. Some may say that using this technique are bad or awkward for horseback archery (try tell that to Genghis Khan XD but the thing is they always use their cheek/cheekbone to hold their arrow in place. This way they can set a fixed anchor point and good shot cycle. We can see footage of the way how the Mongols archer did this. As for the reason for this technique? God knows but it's also an effective technique.

[@ambidextrousarchery]

Inclusive final message😊

[@humbleb5451]

With the arrow on the left side it's easier to target precisely, which is an advantage during competitions. But it won't work on horseback, where you need the index finger of the right hand to keep the arrow pushed against the bow.

[@sparkatorch]

Humble B' not sure why some say that. I've shot both, and aiming is fine for both. Hardest part was getting my thumb used to it.

[@cotton7577]

sparkatorch you must be pretty gay to shoot both

[@jrs4516]

i see some of the mongolians use tape or thread on the arrow shaft near the head for draw length indication. when they feel the tape on their knuckle they know it's full draw. for long range shooting, consistent draw length is paramount, so maybe has something to do with why they shoot this way, maybe not. obviously you could still do this shooting off your thumb or normal part of the hand, but i think it would give a more precise feeling the way they shoot off the index finger with the knuckle bent

[@martinmoskowitz4069]

Beautiful bow.

[@ArminHirmer]

indeed :) thanks for watching

[@UncleDanBand64]

Nice.

[@crisloucks6805]

I wonder if it is a confusion of styles. Like everyone else they converted to using guns. Confusion in relearning old skills?

[@烏梨師斂]

The Manchus broke ALL Mongol bows. Mongolian archery is actually dead

[@jugdertemuujin4014]

Ye come to Mongolia and u will see , by the way there is manchus? O they extinct, assimilated by hun chinese they no more only in museums ha, ha fucking manchus ye sad they got what wished for.....

[@gizmonomono]

Interesting technique. But if I don't feel the arrow in my draw hand it just doesn't feel right.

[@serba73]

this side is for foot achers. but if you are a horse archer you have to put your arrow the opposite side.

[@ArminHirmer]

Why that?

[@serba73]

@@ArminHirmer traditional mongolian side is the same as the turkish side. mongols use mediterenian side for the recreational races. but if they are on the horse back they use the thumb draw side because if they dont do so they can not control the arrow on the horse.

[@ArminHirmer]

@@serba73 thanks for explanation :)

[@breakingthroughinside]

Could this method be the product of occidental influences? all the downsides with none of the benefits

[@Daylon91]

So did the Mongols not do khatra then or was this a demonstration of Chinese influence?

[@ArminHirmer]

I think as long as they had the arrow on the right side, they might have performed khatra

[@Excalibure666]

It's not fair to call Mongolian release. It's Asian release. Chinese, Turkish, Korean, Manchurian, Mongolian, Indian.... They all use thumb release.

[@ArminHirmer]

It is a common name for it and it was esp. meant for a question about Mongolians shooting with thumb but the arrow on the other side. We all know that many other countries use thumb release

[@gizmonomono]

Would you call this an efficient style of archery? I tried every style I could find, and this one was by far the worse for me

[@ArminHirmer]

Not for me

[@SulejmanSulejmanieurocafe]

You don't mention at all the trigger ring. Why?

[@ArminHirmer]

Trigger ring? Show me

[@جاویدایران-ت6غ]

what is diffrence between turkish vs mongolian bow? which is better ? strong.handling.and quafiling for race.I can't chooise either.please help me.

[@ArminHirmer]

there is no better, it depends what you are looking for. mongolian is longer, turkish shorter and snappier. I prefer turkish

[@SharuMelli]

Hi! What would happen if you use mediterranean style (either normal or 3 under) with the arrow on the "wrong" side? I would like to see in a video what would happen and an explanation of why does it happen (if something happens).

[@ArminHirmer]

the arrows tend to a bit to the right side because of archers paradox and maybe string walking. but it is nice way to shoot. i did a video about it: slavic release

[@ArminHirmer]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/e3qsg5ynqdqFfKc

[@SharuMelli]

THANK YOU! Have been looking for something like this for a while.

[@ArminHirmer]

welcome... be aware others here on youtube will tell you slavic release is performed with arrow on left side... like regular 3 finger draw. simply try what works for you and stick with. a while ago i did some kind of bag, walking circles and shooting while switching bow hand. my kind of slavic worked perfect for that

[@ArminHirmer]

kzbin.info/www/bejne/nqTcZ3ZopNSEqq8

[@Mirza-gt9rr]

Great video. Where did you buy your long fletched arrows from?

[@ArminHirmer]

Fairbow Netherlands, in that time they were a bit expensive. I will get soon some from Sarmat Archery, will do a test. Wait for it :D

[@b.boldnasan9592]

Where did you get that bow? Mongolian traditionally made bow has a lot of draw weight. But the modern way of making (using some electrical tools) have little weakened it. But the chinese copy cats have lesser draw weight than the Mongolian modern made.

[@ArminHirmer]

it is a chinese built bow :) and yes with their modern tools and crafts, they are not able to build strong bows like the original mongolian ones. this is a qing dynasty design bow, not really mongolian

[@JSharap]

Armin, can I get the link to the website for the bow you are shooting in this video? Thanks.

[@ArminHirmer]

www.cinnabarbow.com/marinerbows/qing.html the Qing Dragon 2

[@fatcat7872]

this bow looks very light

[@ArminHirmer]

because it is

[@aycsfca4459]

How about the same thing but arrow threaded from the right side of the bow? It doesn't fall off even with bouncing.

[@ArminHirmer]

then it is the normal way of thumb release. the question was, if it is possible to it the other way

[@aycsfca4459]

Is it possible to aim with arrow on right? Can't figure it out since arrow shaft not in line with eye?

[@ArminHirmer]

might be hard. I do instinctive archery and I don't aim with the arrow. I only look at the target

[@aycsfca4459]

Armin Hirmer so I guess it's just like throwing a ball? Repetition at different ranges?

[@ArminHirmer]

yes of course. some have a quick glance at the arrow but not really aiming with it. helps. and as usual, start very short distance until you get the feel

[@Burboss]

I think the real issue with such bow-arrow-release setup is archer's paradox. Do you have any comments on this?

[@ArminHirmer]

sure. you can usually work around with performing khatra. but of course it is harder when the arrow is on the bow hand side

[@Burboss]

Well, I have tried it. In my experience, it worked as long as very little pressure on arrow is applied and stiffer shafts are used.

[@ArminHirmer]

yes, that helps

[@WV591]

sine you like these Asian and eastern style bows, maybe do a video in using tong-ah.

[@ArminHirmer]

sure, when my shoulder is working again, I will build one :) thanks for watching

[@WV591]

my arm and shoulders are trashed thx to over-bowing. now after several months of not being able to shoot I'm slowly back to 30-35 pound bows. as we say ,day late dollar short.

[@ArminHirmer]

i had a traffic accident :) collarbone broken, not even able to pull 15# kids bow right now

[@TheDave570]

All the pics were of Mongol archers shooting for "Distance" where accuracy is not a problem. However I don't think your Khatra will work as the movement is towards the left for a right hand shooter. Your video is informative but for me a non-starter. I use khatra and it just will not work!!

[@ArminHirmer]

of course not, when the arrow is on the left side (for a right hand archer)

[@ElizaberthUndEugen]

This should cause problems with arrow paradox, as no khatra can be performed... Why isn't that an issue here?

[@ArminHirmer]

in medieval times there was kind of (reverse) khatra for 3 finger draw, so either this or proper spined arrows :)

[@ElizaberthUndEugen]

But so far I thought thumb release induces so little "paradoxing" (oscillation) into the string and the arrow, that khatra is always necessary to keep the arrows from sliding along the bow. I thought that was the whole point of khatra -- to compensate for to little paradox due to a "too" clean release.

[@ArminHirmer]

yes, that is one of the purposes of khatra and of course when you shoot this way it might be not that easy. I don't shoot like this, I have the arrow on the right side. But it is possible to do and hat was the question

[@ElizaberthUndEugen]

Hmm, that's confusing. Why would people in the past have used khatra when it is not necessary and hard to master at the same time? Might the reason be that peoples that used khatra only used very hard woods and canes that had so high spine values that khatra was necessary?

[@ArminHirmer]

what is confusing please? do khatra or dont do it. THIS example was for shooting the arrow on the wrong side, it works, might not be perfect, BUT yes I do use khatra all the time, no matter which arrow i shoot

[@davidlu7840]

Who makes that bow? Where can I get one?

[@ArminHirmer]

it is the "ming dragon 2" from Mariner Bows. You can get them from cinnabar bow.com

[@peterzetterlund1280]

Khatra? ;-)

[@ArminHirmer]

hehe nope :)