Why are Bolters WEAKER than Lasguns in Warhammer 40K? Weird Rules Discussed

Let's talk about the weird situation of lasguns being STRONGER than bolters in 40K
--Patreon Page--
/ auspex
--SubscribeStar--
www.subscribes...
--Buy Warhammer 40K miniatures here--
Element Games in the UK: elementgames.co...
Amazon in the USA + Canada: amzn.to/303klKD
--Social Media--
Facebook: / auspex-tactics-1031297...
Discord: / discord
-- Subscribe to Auspex Tactics --
tinyurl.com/yc...

[@zanmatoshin877]

A guardsman being told to "move move move!!" also outruns a space marine with an assault jump pack. No magic or anything, just being told😅

[@anthonyallmond3682]

I hate that so much it’s absolutely annoying I’m Playing literal Uberhumans with a jet pack and a bunch of literal normal non enhanced humans can move faster with some Geezer yelling at them

[@RedGnoll]

@@anthonyallmond3682 I see you did not recieve the benefits of a traditionnal education. Old people yelling and threatening to kick your buttcheeks can be surprisingly effective.

[@Legio_Purpura_10_28]

@@RedGnoll especialy if these old people are mandated to shoot you if you lag behind.

[@RedGnoll]

@@Legio_Purpura_10_28 Throne, my grandmother was a devout catholic, let's just say I was glad she did not have a bolt pistol.

[@airesbattleblade732]

I had a game the other day where one of my squads got I think a 5 then a 6 on their normal advance then their Move Move Move advance. Round one I had every objective taken.

[@BarokaiRein]

Imagine if GW was to release a new edition with ALL FACTIONS getting a new codex right at launch and then simply update those rules with FAQs and the like when needed. I feel like that would just make 40k a far better game because there would be no codex creep throughout the edition. You know, kinda like how everyone else does it.

[@zetanax1041]

I absolutely agree. Something I have been saying for years is that GW needs to release all the rules online. It would help new & old players to learn the game, and as you said it could be updated easily when necessary. Quite often a codex becomes invalid while still "hot off the presses" In regards to codices, I think they should continue to make books ofcourse, but they should be reformatted into art-books. These new codices could be packed full of artwork and lore, weapon schematics, color schemes and painting tutorials. All of these things remain valid regardless of edition, the book would always keep its value.

[@Brother_Rony]

@@zetanax1041 I mean, I pre-ordered my custodes codex, got it like 3 days after it was officially released and it was already invalid by then 💀💀💀

[@mrlakkie1612]

THIS

[@DaBlueIghuana]

Problem being GW want to keep the excitement going over the whole edition, and factions are usually the best thing to do so. But I do agree, I’d love for all rules to come out at once

[@DaBlueIghuana]

@@garetheckley7018 unfortunate but true

[@fabr1cat0rgeneral94]

This is what happens when you have nearly two years between the first and last released codices of a new edition. Bandaids start piling up as individual fixes only add to the bloat, making the whole thing harder to fix in the long run.

[@LeCharles07]

Yeah, let's hope GW abandons this stupid plan going into 10th.

[@han_463]

imagine how sick 40k could be if all the codices came out within 6 months or less of a new edition.

[@schwegburt3002]

I think it has more to do with GW not being careful about power creep in the first place. GW should be designing all of the armies at the same time and simply pacing the release of codices for hype and sales. OP armies may drive sales in the short term but eventually the rules get bloated and the game starts buckling under all of the bandaids. Armor of Contempt is a terrible rule since it's a massive bandaid to deal with the strength of small arms which in itself is meant to deal with the era of 2 wound Space marines.

[@davidbowles7281]

@@schwegburt3002 There aren't enough pips on a D6 to differentiate weapons and factions. They would have to make the entire game keyword-driven.

[@kamaeq]

@@davidbowles7281 I've said since 5th that the old D6 and trifecta of SM vs Orks vs IG was broken. GW would need the balls (and caring about the game) to do what One Page Rules is doing. Build an entire calculated method of balancing stat lines, weapons and special rules to give a way to figure out the costs of models and units. e Sure, won't be a perfect fix since there would be wonky balance issues to start with and they would remain ongoing (just like now, but with a long term balance solution) and a lot of."flavor" would be lost as things like Necron reanimation and the various FNP rules could be merged since they are both really an extra save. OTOH, it would get rid of the unit/army/list of the month crap that has been plaguing 40k for decades.

[@adampatrick9639]

We can't damage that titan, we've only got bolters! It would take a lascannon to make a scratch and a standard lasgun to do any real damage!

[@Khobai]

thats why the old toughness system from like 4th edition was vastly superior. bolters should not be able to hurt everything. now anything can be taken down by enough bolter fire which is just plain silly and hurts the role of heavy weapons. the AP system from 4th edition was superior too. You didnt have this crappy AP modifiers system and weapons either ignored armor saves or they didnt.

[@christophervennix9861]

@@Khobai On the one hand I like the idea of every unit having at least some chance in battle, even against heavy units. On the same count the idea of a squad of 10 guardsman being able to consistently lay down damage on a heavy tank with Lasguns is absolutely ludicrous. Definitely needs some balance somewhere (looking at you Hammer of the Emperor on 30-40 Las shots per round)

[@thefeatherbird_]

@@christophervennix9861 this is why grenades and special weapons exist though. If a tacmarine or guardsman squad doesnt have a melta theyre gonna need to get in close and slap a krak grenade on the tanks hull to do any damage, and always have that option.

[@Siathuan]

@@Khobai I actually like the new AP system better overall, but it needs to be scaled back to reduce the AP bloat, and weapon costs need to take into account that the first two points of AP are the most impactful. Now, if GW actually wanted balance, it wouldn't be too hard, but we all know that's NOT how they operate...

[@MrFelblood]

@@Khobai The intention was to make it so that heavily mechanized armies, especially Knights, didn't simply negate the damage output of half of your opponents list. The effect has been that half-baked "fixes" like Hammer of the Emperor have still been worked in, and made the situation stupidly silly.

[@tastiGMmaster2099]

I've always said that, if the 9e lasguns' profile actually does become stronger then a bolter, I might laugh so hard even the Harlequins start to get concerned, lol.

[@echo_ironside8006]

technically the profile is still worse

[@rhysbaker7456]

@@echo_ironside8006 an army-wide rule is effectively a profile change. Otherwise, you admit you're not interested in the game playing like the lore as long as the flavour says otherwise

[@echo_ironside8006]

@Rhys Baker the game doesn't play like the lore. If it did, we wouldn't have hormagaunt devourers beating out bolters and drawing with necron gauss reapers. We wouldn't have rubric marines being less favoured by Tzeentch (not getting mark) in thousand sons armies than they do in CSM. Spawn are just better in CSM than DG/TS too. 9th ed doesn't play like the lore, which is a shame :/

[@AzrealMaximus]

HA

[@darkjill2007]

@@echo_ironside8006 it wouldn't be a good or playable game if it worked like the lore.

[@bentrinick]

What annoys me about these conversations is how often Sisters of Battle are completely ignored in the bolter vs lasgun discussion, they also use bolters but don't have combat doctrines or bolter discipline

[@samfire3067]

Flamer

[@tacticaltoad1104]

​@samfire3067 but my range will be shorter, sir 😢

[@iamnotglenn]

I found it absurd that bolters with their explosive rounds are ap0. Of course I also find it absurd that armour of contempt makes most of the necron army cry because of the volume of ap-1/-2 weapons they have

[@XanderTuron]

Explosive fillers generally reduce the potential penetrative capabilities of weapons; the fact that the bolter is explicitly armour piercing in nature makes it being ap0 quite absurd.

[@sallivan340]

AoC is the cancer

[@SuperOmegaBerserker]

Gauss spam and Gauss Disintegration Strat(Gauss weapons explode on 6+ to hit) , Hit rolls of 6+ auto wound, Youre welcome? Did you even try. I mean 2 cp and you basically weight of fire eradicate them and have you fucking seen the night bringer or????

[@SuperOmegaBerserker]

@@XanderTuron you contradict yourself and no they literally use a delayed charge with anti tank rounds to fucking annihilate the armor hence.... armor penetration???

[@gonkdroid1337]

@@SuperOmegaBerserker chill out dude

[@jo_ken]

Short answer…..power creep. Long answer Guard still has yet to get a codex and they needed some patching rules.

[@coldwintersknight9793]

Long answer: Pooooweeeeerrrr creeeeeeeeep

[@Bluecho4]

Yeah, Hammer of the Emperor, while greatly appreciated, is very much an "emergency buff". It was never meant to be the permanent solution, nor to make logical sense in-universe (unless we suppose the mechanic reflects a "with enough shots, something will get through by sheer probability" advantage inherent to the Imperial Guard, aka the Wall of Guns). It was meant to address the power disparity within the competitive meta.

[@kerbo5918]

Perfect analysis. Video is 9 minutes 50 seconds longer than necessary.

[@johnadam4117]

Hmm tau didn't get a patch until thier codex. Knights didn't get a patch until thier codex for the most part.

[@bret7081]

Before hammer of the emperor it was not hard to table a 200+ body IG list. Now we actually have a chance to fight back. No codex for 5+ years plus all the lethality that comes out with every new codex kinda makes it a necessity for guard now.

[@ShahbazBokhari]

This is why everyone needs their rule sets ready to go at the launch of an edition, with a period of FAQ'ing and balancing, as *EVERYONE* is able to provide good data/feed back. This is the inevitable result of GW's staggered release schedule doctrine, this is the glaringly obvious power creep rendering iconic units and weapons laughable and into a glorified objective tax once again. Time has come to differentiate between bolters and astartes bolters. Time has long come to establish a *SOLID* vision and adhere to it. Use the fluff to create the crunch. And decide if you want a healthy game or if you just want short term bursts of share holder glee. The short sightedness and accessibility issues of the game combined with a lack of modern digital release rules and a level playing field for as much of the community as possible, is fast catching up. I know it is such a radical notion, but, hear me out. What if. The game is fun and allows as many of the community to have meaningful and as close to fair interactions as possible whilst making the information required to play the game at its best, also as accessible as possible, you would quite possibly, see much higher degrees of customer retention as well as new players feeling more confident to try and rope in their friends.

[@AJAXDelta]

Sometimes I play 3rd Edition lol

[@chironentertainment]

The only reason why Bolters are weaker then Lasguns is because GW needed to take First born marines out of the meta and force players to buy Primaris instead. It has nothing to do with Lore or outdated rules. It is an enforced rule with the intent of phasing out First born marines. So basically Games Workshop destroyed their most iconic and respected weapon affiliated with Warhammer 40000 to push a product that could have been introduced in a much more respectable way. This is the sole reason why I don't play Primaris. I love truescale, I think it's fantastic, and the Primaris Marines look awesome...but they should never have existed. Rather GW should have just told us they were updating the look of the Marines and just started releasing them at Truescale. Everyone would have been happy, there wouldn't have been stupid rules which made no logical sense e.g. Primaris not allowed to ride in Landraiders etc.

[@williampounds5191]

This whole thing is doubly egregious when they're releasing things like new eldar and especially CSM models which are very clearly at new scales anyway. Primaris could've absolutely just been the new style going forward. I know there's a lot of mixed opinions on the votaan but if they really wanted a new faction of humans with different technology and weapon profiles and still support the OG marines that was the way to do it. New true scale marines with the old rules, new faction with primaris stuff.

[@BloodyArchangelus]

But even primaris bolters are shit. Stop with this primaris hatred. Go play heresy kek.

[@Renegade666]

THIS!!!

[@cousinzeke4888]

That's how I think of primaris anyway, there's no such thing as a primaris marine in my eyes.

[@Sorrowdusk]

🤨 But why did Chaos get truescale then but no disadvantages? Why do CSM also have bolters? *WHY* is Fabulous Bill so interested in Primaris corpses? Is he going to one up the heretek Better-Call-Cawl? 🤔

[@davidbrown8372]

I went to a water fight the other day. They asked me to use boltguns as they were safer than super soakers

[@hideshisface1886]

There is one more thing that also improved lasguns - toughness/strength table changes - lasguns previously were able to wound targets up to T6. With T6 and T5 wounded on 6+, T4 on 5+ and T3 on 4+ Suddenly, with 8th they became capable of wounding T5 on 5+ and everything higher on 6+. I can't overstate how big this change was - it affected every weapon in the game, but low S weapons especially - basically everyone got old Gauss Weapon special rule built in. Another thing is... special rule bloat. Back in older editions, most of the stuff was just unit stats and weapons, occasionally some gimmick, like "gets hot" for plasma weapons, or special way vehicle armour was treated for brightlances - but for the most part, it was just that. At most, buffs were... grounded - additional morale, additional accuracy, or additional shots, different organisation chart. But these days, in pursuit of giving armies their own identity, we have buffs on top of buffs - some of these making little sense narratively - 40k basically always had some issues translating fluff into crunch, which is partly the reason for power creep we observe today. Armies need to stay competitive within their scale, yet need to have fluffy enough feel, which sometimes leads to weird things. For example, just this edition at one point power armour was basically pointless, so we have Armour of Contempt now.

[@TimberwolfCY]

I stopped playing in early 5th, and man you hit the nail on the head. There are so, so, so many special rules nowadays talking with my friends who still play. I played Tau back then, and part of my reason picking that as a starter was the *lack* of special rules honestly, it made the army feel much more grounded, as you put very accurately IMO. But having all those special rules leads to clumsiness IMO, both in making base stats seem like almost an afterthought, and the game itself getting turned into a pile of bandaids to you have to play with. That's of course just my outlook on it, I'm unsure if I'll ever play again, though honestly that's more due to lack of time and the fact painting is nearly impossible for me nowadays due to medical conditions.

[@seangallagher9435]

Having army traits on top of sub faction traits on top of warlord traits, and how some models are “core” and others weren’t, so certain rules don’t work on each other. point changes and small rule tweaks make the $60 book you just bought 3 months ago out of date. And when games workshop releases a new book for a different army it can make the $300 army you bought obsolete.

[@xuruiyu]

I seriously wonder how this is going to get fixed Because they CANNOT stay the way they are, especially with Orks now being T5, Bolters should be S5 for the encounters with the Green Tide to even resemble how they should look like in canon But then we see that the Heavy Bolter is too weak in comparison. So do we give them S6, which is a ridiculous boost in damage, or an additional AP point, thus making Missile Launcher's AP look kinda funny.... That's what happens when instead of actually trying to balance the game you just keep buffing everything xD

[@seangallagher9435]

I haven’t followed the meta or game changes as of rn, but I think it’s really funny I have just found out about armor of contempt, the new lasgun rule, and orcs getting T5 from this video

[@xuruiyu]

@@seangallagher9435 ouch, that seems like a lot to take in all at once

[@DeafLord18]

The only difference between the bolt rifle and bolter should have been range. Both shoot same bullet but one has longer range to justify the two. That or make the bolter more dangerous the closer you are to create a dynamic between the two.

[@nathanbally]

but then Primaris wouldn't be better than Firstborn which were nearly unplayable in 8th and players wouldn't have bought Primaris and GW would be sad because their scheme to make the last 30 years of models from the most popular armies worthless would have failed and then they wouldn't have made all that money

[@battlemastergenkhan4622]

Barrel length increases velocity which has the potential to increase bullet penetration across various target profiles in real life. Adding -1 AP to to the bolt rifles makes sense.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

The lasgun I think should have more range but have less damage... The bolter less range but more damage as if their bolts pen they explode. And Primaris have them pen better with slightly beter range then the Beta marines but still less then a Cadin's lasgun.

[@DeafLord18]

@@battlemastergenkhan4622 the ammo though negates that. When you have exploding bullets you don’t need to worry about solid round rules. So you have essentially a short barrel gun with a longer barrel.

[@DeafLord18]

@@GreenBlueWalkthrough lasgun should ficntoon like the admech vanguard gun but better range with no special rule. Solid 3 shots at full range but still weak. Lasguns can put out way more shots then anything throwing solid ammo.

[@unintentionally_edgy5867]

i knew the answer would be numbers... i just didnt realize it would be followed by of shots. he who fears not the lasgun has not walked through a field of ten thousand of them. Edit: also armour of contempt makes tactical doctrine almost useless unless the gun already has AP-1 or more

[@Bluecho4]

It's funny that much of this "problem", such as it is, directly stems from two emergency buffs from the balance patches (Armor of Contempt and Hammer of the Emperor). It's probably still good that both of those mechanics were added, if only to make their respective armies generally viable. But it does create the fringe disadvantage of making Tactical Doctrine pointless.

[@Khobai]

AoC also makes units like assault intercessors effectively useless against other marine armies since the only reason to use assault intercessors over regular intercessors is their AP1 which is now completely negated by armour of contempt.

[@unintentionally_edgy5867]

@@Khobai I will agree with you for marines as a whole, but I personally play black templars so If I play right they can still get them in assault doctrine every turn making them still useful.

[@thegorefatherdonkhorneleon5159]

Coincidence or not

[@doctordoubledakka3939]

AoC gotta go. Just gives bolters another AP across the game, marines will be ok

[@loltwest9423]

You know, playing the Horus Heresy and comparing that to modern 40k has made me realize something: We really need to go back to how 7th Ed worked. Give us back the Blast markers, the Armor Facings and Armor values, as well as the old AP system. Yeah, sure the names made it a bit confusing, and all, but at least the system made sense. I don't care how many lasguns you fire or for how long, you're not gonna break through a Landraider's armor.

[@Tallus_ap_Mordren]

Even better, go back to 5th edition, before they duct-taped the Fantasy Challenges onto 40k.

[@calebbarnhouse496]

That's not how lasguns works, eventually heat buildup will destoy a tank, now for bolters you'd be right

[@Mikazuchireborn]

Those guardsmen will be wounding a Warlord Titan at an even higher rate than you would a Land Raider or Predator Tank. Because the Titan's wildly disproportionate 5500 point cost, you can now afford to send in A LOT of lasguns. I guarantee, that Titan doesn't have enough guns to shoot them all.

[@Dap1ssmonk]

@@Mikazuchireborn which is what would happen to a titan in a real conflict, being overwhelmed by chaff it can’t hope to kill fast enough.

[@davidbowles7281]

@@tatooine_dream It was much better because it was easier to balance. The fact that GW spammed AP 2 weapons doesn't change this.

[@darko-man8549]

Let’s be honest, Primaris really upset the ability to balance marines. Once again, true scaling would have worked bettero

[@McToast1337]

The one and only reason why they didn't just "update" the models to true scale was money. Space Marines were always the most played army and they basically reset the whole SM market with Primaris. RAW you couldn't just use your old Marines anymore, you had to buy Primaris to get the shiny new toys. And you can tell that the whole Primaris fluff was an afterthought to the moneymaking scheme, and it worked, too. It's a big mess and one of the reasons why I don't play much 40k anymore.

[@reson8]

I'm slightly disgusted that lasguns have been given the old gauss flayer special rule; it's not flavourful either in-game or in lore. It would be more fun to give them the triarch stalker rule of giving other units +1 hit once a lasgun-firing unit has shot at an enemy. It doesn't help the low strength of lasguns, but that's the point; buff imperial guard in other ways.

[@whitemiasma5288]

All the buff needed is to drop the points by 10-15% on everything.

[@Swrdfshtrmbns]

Welcome to 9th edition where data sheets don’t matter, everything is a gimmick of magic trump cards, and everything between a lasgun and a Demolisher cannon has been totally invalidated in the process!

[@Llevarion]

Felt the same thing with Tau pulse rifles when 8th came around, they are supposed to blow lightly protected targets apart but then they lost their AP and only had the benefit of range and str 5

[@MARStheFORSAKEN]

As a necron player I am ferious that my warriors molecular deconstruction beams that shred the bonds between atoms is LESS deadly then the portable laser that has as much amperage as 5 car batteries(that's cannon look up the neutons of force a lasgun shot makes)

[@Edude117]

Games Workshop is so dumb with Necron fluff. They keep giving us this lore about Necron tech that essentially makes them nigh omnipotent, unstoppable killing machines and they’re literally unable to reflect that on the tabletop without busting game balance. So we get lore about Gauss weapons vaporizing armored Space Marines in one shot, meanwhile their actual tabletop rules make them basically pea shooters.

[@davidbowles7281]

Canon doesn't matter. Only the crunch.

[@ВасилийМорозов-л7х]

A laser doesn't make newtons, for it makes no propelling force. Maybe you mean work in joules?

[@Khobai]

@@Edude117 gauss weapons just need a rule that makes them ignore armor saves on a wound roll of 6.

[@davidbowles7281]

@@Khobai Or just go to MW. Fuck it.

[@huwtindall7096]

Bolters are really shorter range brutal fire power. I could see them being S5 AP2 Rapid Fire1. Bolt rifle can have slightly better range.

[@necromosisx3590]

I keep lamenting the nerfing of the Necron Gauss weapons which had more to them than an AP modifier. As a faction special narrative rule it went hand in hand with re-animation protocols... which has taken a hammering itself for all those multi wounds unit models. The rules really do need to go back to basics again as a starting point but this time have a far greater control over codex/rules creep.

[@BrettBallanger]

I kind of like it since there are stories in the lore of how the lasgun is a tech from the Dark Age of Technology and may have hidden features. Gameplay wise if they wanted to boost bolters give them more combat strategies to boost AP or some kind of blast mechanic to deal with hordes.

[@robindowse7893]

In the lore from the novels perspective bolters are alot more effective and nasty but the standard lasgun can still match it minus the penetrative power as they have a power setting and the higher you have it the less shots you have so most normal have it on the low setting to conserve the energy I found this in an gaunts ghosts novel and found it very interesting

[@firmak2]

Yeah. A full powered lazgun can take a space marines head off, helmet and all.

[@Legio_Purpura_10_28]

They also have different types of powerpacks. It is said that "military grade ammunition would blow up everything that smaller than deer" in one book.

[@fin4314]

@@firmak2 That is just idiotic tho, probably the work of the same breed of black library author as the guy who mistook custodes for imperial guardsmen

[@n0rman908]

@@fin4314 I think the big thing is that high power las shots can indedeed cut through a space marines armor on occasion. But it puts like a tiny hole in them which they just dont care about. It seems some of the authors view the space marines armor as their best defense when its actually the fact that they can ignore a ridiculous amount of bodily damage.

[@firmak2]

@@fin4314 actually no. It was Dan Abnetts Gaunts Ghosts first book. It makes sense too He did full power blast about 1-2m away. Lazguns have a lot of power in them( the lazgun was empty after that)

[@TrypticOwen]

It is a shame that we're back around to the marines' troops being a 'tax' that is only good for sitting on objectives. I really want to be picking bolter marines for the bolters.

[@SuperOmegaBerserker]

I mean, dark angels, shoot in combat, no move +1to hit, 4++ from azrael in 6", you can have 50 marines for 50 power, You play at 75 and have Azrael, an Ancient, 2 Lieutenants and maybe a venerable chaplain dreadnought with some recessitation of focus or some shit and that will be the most fucking annoying shit ever, i usually run them in 10 blobs and combat squad, get the special and heavy and the sarge and special in each man of 5 and usually since its 100 wounds at Basically a 2+ save to 1/5 the weapons in the game 3+ save to 2/5th the game and 4++ save for 2/5th the rest of the games weapons, if you wanna be an asshole run a term squad or two they have a free 1-3 fail to wound, and with all the fucking marines running around, 10 combat squads if theres 5 objectives you are gonna have only 3 you really need to cover so the issue here seems to be more you and being incapable of choosing a troupe. Youre spoiled with options. Optimize or be a master of none fool of all loss holder no one is able to help you understand the game better than yourself.

[@LupusGr3y]

That's most of the factions troops. A general rule is that troops are for objectives, not for damage. There are a few exceptions, but they are not common

[@thomasbagrel5854]

@@SuperOmegaBerserker You wont kill anything with that. You will also be weaker than deathwing terminators. A repentia squad with preacher (10 figs in total) kills on average 12-15 marines on charge... So two squads of repentia in rhinos for ~470pts will wreak havoc on your list

[@rain6353]

@@thomasbagrel5854 Repentia are freaking brutal, monsters with proper buffs. Love those ladies.

[@TrypticOwen]

@@LupusGr3y I think that's a fair comment but not really what I want from marines. A guardsman being only good for sitting on objectives feels very different to a much more points-costly genetically engineered supersoldier being only good for sitting on objectives in terms of becoming immersed in the game and invested in your army! It's also very much at odds with 8ed, where standard bolter marines really could be quite handy and I think it was very much to the game's benefit that I valued the basic troops and was interested in the weapons they carried - especially the different bolt rifle options on Intercessors. These days, any bolter-wielding marine pales in comparison to an Aggressor who is in turn inferior to a bolt Inceptor who is underwhelming compared to more specialist firepower...

[@sir2bot2]

If GW were less focused on trying to profit from the rules, we could of had a more balanced game format. Too bad they went for profit and sold the one by one like trickle forcing people to go for the latest codex to get something interesting. Same tactic Drug Dealers use

[@epicstyle1000]

" If GW were less focused on trying to profit, "...... Remember Warhammer+

[@usachev2010]

Another thing to point out is, that during 5 turns of the game, two marines firing at each other do not statistically kill one another

[@Vanq22114]

Two marines standing right next to each other firing their bolters like "Standing here, I realize, you were just like me, tried to make history!" as bolter shells ricochet off their armor

[@mrgoober6320]

The whole primaris thing was a terrible idea, it's just taken a generation for everyone to realize it.

[@MrPace-ge4qy]

Yeah, a rocket assisted armour piercing, high explosive round has same ap and damage as a modern 5.56x45.

[@galacticbananastopmotions7292]

Now I’m imagining an irl lasgun that just shoots 5.56/2.23

[@richmcgee434]

In Rogue Trader the ammo is also "mass-reactive" (ie it chooses whether to detonate as a shaped charge if it hits something that will resist penetration, or as a frag when it senses it's gotten inside something squishy). The suits also have full auto-senses that feed into the bolter rounds and make them semi-guided to boot. They're horrifying deadly as described. That was the same era when grenades were the size of pennies so you could carry dozens of them trivially and set their detonation parameters on the fly using the suit electronics. None of the ridiculous WW2-looking low-tech crap you see on models these days.

[@GreenBlueWalkthrough]

@@galacticbananastopmotions7292 In the RPG it's more .50 cal and the bolter a 20MM.

[@tacticaltoad1104]

Of course that 5.56 round is green tip so it would make your average ork boy disappear.

[@vineheart01]

Even knowing guard needs buffs, it still bothers me they gave them autowound on 6s. Both because that is a weight of attacks with rerolls getting an autowound part, which as we know from the initial admech release that can puke wounds even on tough targets. But also because lasguns got this before gauss weapons in necrons, which for the longest time 6s to wound things they normally couldnt was their shtick (yes I know hit vs wound rolls but a lot of people were confused why gauss didn't just move to on hit autowound)

[@gcaroppo]

As far as the lore rappresenterd on the tabletop, 8th and 9th are incredibly bad. It's not just the bolter, a lot of weapon profiles do not make sense at all, like the fact that kroot with a rusty bayonett on a janky rifle hit with the same strenght and ap of the "diamond hard" teeth of a chainsword wielded by an astartes. The maggott spitters of the gaunts have the same profile of the heavy bolt rifle (only the range is different), and higher strenght than the atom splitting gauss rifle of the necrons. Speaking of necrons, apparently the arsenal of the most technologically advanced race in the galaxy, that can alter the fabric of spacetime itself and enslave divine entities, is still no match for the pew pew big gun of some fish dudes that stopped beeing caveman litterally yesterday from their perspective

[@davidbowles7281]

The lore doesn't matter or count on the tabletop. It might as well not exist.

[@RSBurgener]

Missile launchers and lascannons are equally sad IMO.

[@davidbowles7281]

@@RSBurgener That's because invuln saves make single shot AT weapons useless. No actual military principles hold in 40K. It's just a bunch of nonsense.

[@gcaroppo]

@@davidbowles7281 It has to matter something or otherwise the difference in power between different models would be entirely arbitrary and justified by nothing. I don't really care about the game beeing 100% a good rappresentation of the lore, i can accept it as long as game balance benefits from it (and game balance is still in a bad spot despite this), but both things can coexist in the same game system if done right, like Kill Team has proven multiple times

[@davidbowles7281]

@@gcaroppo Tell that to GW's rules team. Currently, the power is arbitrary and justified by basically nothing. Pre-nerf orks ran me off the table in 2 turns and I was basically over 9th ed.

[@ghillieguy52]

the game needs to move to D12s, they clearly have been struggling with balancing things like AP, strength, toughness etc when they only have 2-4 to work with since ones and sixes are auto fail/succeed. if that changed they could give things like bolters -1 AP without it being too powerful, and lasguns auto wounding could have reduced odds.

[@TubeTAG]

So, to defend the lasgun's lore, the concept of it being referred to as a "flashlight" *should* be a wholy out-of-lore concept. The thing fires a bolt of energy capable of blowing off a human limb at decent range. Not just shredding it, like modern rounds do, but *blowing it off.* We're talking an order of magnitude more energy than your average round and right about what we would consider an anti-material rifle today. The only *issue* is that, of course, they usually shooting at targets covered in ceramite, or psychic fungus muscle, or living psychic metal, or inches thick bioengineered chitin, or the mutating power of angry gods rewriting the very concept of reality around the target so that "damage" does not exist unless your immortal soul has been touched by the result of centuries of your entire species' lineage personally blessing you, or... Whatever.

[@lockemyastan6276]

Whenever I wonder how the Imperium is still alive, I imagine the absolute horror of seeing thousands of Guardsmen in a firing line, levelling a building piece by piece.

[@beejaabee30]

I think it comes down to the quote "Guardsman, your lasgun can and has defeated almost any enemy the imperium has faced, unfortunately for you, you're fighting what's left" Flashlight meme is survivorship bias

[@mrvex6695]

Laser weapons secondary purpose is quite underutilized in lore and that being lasers heating up armor and anything it hits, it has enough energy to rip through people, concentrated attacks of lasguns would in real life melt through tanks eventually. Everything in warhammer would have to be like space marine armor and that is economically too hard to do. And it would be rather anti climactic for a single baneblade to completely own whole squads of space marines whos bolter weapons couldnt even dent it, only for it to die to 12 dudes focus firing its main turret and cooking off the loaded shell inside.

[@Infinity_Coda]

I think part of it is uncapping stats from being 1-10 and redoing the way wounding works made the difference between S3 and S4 much, MUCH less significant. Couple that with increased durability across a lot of infantry in many factions, and the gap between them is narrowed even more.

[@seangallagher9435]

I don’t know much about the meta, but Admech infantry and sisters of having T3 always seemed off to me. if it was T3.5 or something it would make things more interesting

[@LeCharles07]

Shhh! It's all we infantry guard players really have going for us since we're *still* waiting on a codex. :'c

[@drachenmagus1604]

I don't like the idea of boosting bolter strength because than it competes with Tau Pulse Rifles which are supposed to be light plasma guns. I think making the Deathwatch special ammo for all chapter bolters, and heavy bolters would be fine as they are essentially RPGs. You could also make unmodified wound roll of 6 does a mortal wound. I mean these are mini rockets that explode. In either case they do make the bolters than special and not just making them more powerful by directly changing their stats.

[@user-hv6gi9ux6z]

Then you'd have to give deathwatch something new as their special issue ammo is one of the few things they have over any other chapter

[@SLG493]

Love that lore page after the intro. Very obscure easter egg. Sinister/Dexter locking mechanism. A nod to Dan Abnett and his 2000AD series. Mad good

[@andrewbenn5261]

It's lore vs balance at the core. The lore makes space marines and their kit so far above the human average that lore accurate rules would make the guard nearly unplayable. Back in 3rd ed you could have 60-odd guardsmen for a single troops choice. This meant individually guard and their kit could be lore accurate, but it meant actually fielding them on the table top was a nightmare. Ultimately I feel like its more imporant to have a game people can play and enjoy, rather than one that slavishly follows a lore that wasn't written with any specific reference to balance or rules.

[@RSBurgener]

It's not just the boltguns. Missile launchers aren't very good. You will inevitably roll a 1 every time you hit with a lascannon. Your 10 point plasma gun misses every time and if you supercharge it, your dude is going to die.

[@adamcarr1387]

I think the answer for why gw doesn't do that is sales, in a constantly shifting meta and new models and codices spread over years it drives way more sales than a whole edition all at once

[@CB-sf9mx]

Answer: The game has too many rules and datasheets. If we played "LoreHammer", Each space marine would cost 100 points, T/S 6, have 5 wounds, a 2+ save, Ld 20, 5 attacks at AP -1, and Rapid Fire 5, S5 Boltguns with Ap-2. In the Lorehammer Universe a guardsman would have the same datasheet they have now, but they would cost 1 point each. The tabletop cannot accurately represent the Lore and at the same time allow every faction to take a whole bunch of different models.

[@davidbowles7281]

Well, it could. But sacrifices would have to be made.

[@jeffmooney8638]

this is probably the biggest problem with 40k now. players whinge and moan when datasheets don't reflect the impossible lore of their favorite characters or units, but can't understand that for the game to actually be a game there needs to be some balance to it. even worse, they try and justify terrible power creep using examples from the lore. a solo marine fighting a whole planet of orks for 15 years simply can't exist in any kind of table top game - it's not a solo video game campaign after all. fans need to learn to temper their expectations from the lore with what can really work and make a fun experience on the tabletop, and gw needs to rein in their conflation of lore and tabletop gameplay

[@davidbowles7281]

@@jeffmooney8638 I just prefer to ignore the lore entirely. Which makes me just prefer WWII historical games which you know, follow the lore.

[@sheevpalpatine9532]

​@@jeffmooney8638 The lore itself is highly subjective and malleable. There are so many contradicting stories and lore snippets due to decades of lore and many retcons / Authors making their own takes. That said though 9e is stupidly balanced and a lasgun being stronger than a bolter makes no sense. That isn't power creep or "impossible lore" a lasgun being stronger than a bolter is the real world equivalent of saying the sky isn't blue... Its a known fact that the sky is blue and lasguns are mass produced garbage.

[@arturotorres7209]

Yeah 6’s auto wounding really gave us guard players a reason to roll a lot of dice. I mostly play 1-2k of all infantry guard for narrative fun and before 3x30 conscripts blobs didn’t do much even with FRSR but now a blinding barrage of lasgun fire actually does something that’s not wasting time. And I’ve played a lot vs thousand sons and there ap on standard bolter and storm bolters sucks makes my saving throws to just pick up and pack up my army time. Now that ap on a bolter won’t be a problem for power armor models cause AOC but guard, ork, kroot and other army’s will suffer massively.

[@theomen49]

Thousand sons are uniquely good at killing infantry though, T sons lists tend to spam nothing but rubrics and terminators, and even when we bring something like volcons they are still good at killing infantry hah.

[@Mittens_Gaming]

The problem is not just those two; damage, ap, amount of shots etc have become very bloated in most armies. 9e just kinds needs a reset.

[@NornQueenKya]

Yeeep. At least heavy bolters feel like what they should be though

[@DeafLord18]

That’s a solid point.

[@MattManDX1]

@@DeafLord18 I'm pretty sure the points are explosive actually

[@benwickstead5787]

Dark Angels have a few lore discrepancies. In the books most of the named Characters and other equivalent HQ choices teleport into combat regardless of whether they are in terminator armour or not. There are also many examples of interrogator chaplains and librarians taking war bikes into battle (which is now legends for some reason).

[@CustardCream515]

I started playing in the transition from 6th to 7th and bolters being ap-1 would be absolutely fine for me as an eldar and emperor's children player, especially now that sonic weaponry is ap-1 instead of ignores cover. Sonic blasters were supposed to have more shots and be assault weapons to encourage charges rather than just flat-out being better than a bolter in every way.

[@matthewdillehay5461]

This might be an unpopular opinion but the lore doesn't matter. It changes to suit the needs of GW and there a numerous units/weapons/armies that don't act in game like they would in the lore. Commissars are liabilities instead of guaranteed to keep your squad around. Custodes and Space Marines armies have more models that you would typically see in a warzone outside of the Horus Heresy. Bolters are weak. Vanquisher cannons aren't anti armor. The list goes on. Things don't stay consistent because GW isn't interested in consistency. They want to sell plastic and books, the rules are an afterthought at best. And with such high profits the last couple years they have no reason to change

[@dashrendar7720]

This why house rules are important, applying a little logic is all it takes to get characteristics and points cost into a more agreeable state. Makes the game way more enjoyable as well when you have fun house rules. For instance, in my house Terminators don’t suffer any negatives to hit with large power weapons; hammers, fists. Why would a power fist encumber a terminator as much as a regular marine or human? Just one of many little tweaks to make the game more fun for me and my buddies.

[@AJAXDelta]

Just drop your awesome fury of the first strat if house rules aren't available. Terminators are still God mode IMHO

[@dashrendar7720]

​@@AJAXDelta Termies have always been in my top 3 favorite 40k things.

[@Waagghhboy]

Marine players and necron players are truely never happy. "My BoLtER ShOuLD Be StRoNg LiKE MI BoOKs" 'My factions so strong in lore but I lose wahhh" Yet ork players nerfed to dust never complain

[@davidbowles7281]

Yeah they do. Constantly.

[@drschwandi3687]

At this point I think 9th edition is just a big ad for age of sigmar.

[@GreenStuffConsumer]

1. Rules as is marines use precision where guard uses volume 2. Gw does a shit job at mixing fluff and balance

[@goddamnfish]

As a Necron fan, I'm also pretty disappointed by the fact that tabletop rules didn't reflect how some weapons work in the lore. The Gauss weapon should also have 6s auto wounds, the Enmitic weapons should have something that works like Grav weapon, and the Tesla weapons...well, a little AP wouldn't hurt.

[@Khobai]

gauss weapons definitely need some kindve special rule. because armour of contempt makes it so tesla carbines are now superior to gauss blasters against marine armies. which is wrong for obvious reasons.

[@mrbigglezworth42]

@@Khobai They used to glance vehicles on a 6 regardless of armor value so having a squad of Warriors glancing a land raider to death wasn't uncommon. I don't think that's unique to gauss weapons anymore so that's not really their specific niche now.

[@davidbowles7281]

@@mrbigglezworth42 That never made much sense to me really. I don't think GW knows what they want to do with Necrons and never really did.

[@thegorefatherdonkhorneleon5159]

I have never been a necron player but the original necron weapons were basically death rays that disintegrated pretty much anything they hit which was cool. Its amazing how weak some things are and how OP other things are

[@davidbowles7281]

@@thegorefatherdonkhorneleon5159 Right but they never had rules to support that. So basically they never were that.

[@mlys7184]

Ugh... the Primaris donkey show never ends

[@lostgiant8132]

Giving Lasguns mortal wounds and changing the toughness vs strength table so that any attack can wound anything on a 6 were really bad ideas.

[@Ian_Comics]

You're half right.

[@chetmanley1885]

I've never played guard, but having used battle sisters with auto wounding 6's on bolters I can tell you that a big brick will put wounds on most anything, especially if you bring Morvenn Vahl and 4 storm bolters.

[@Skyscraper125]

Lasguns should be focus fire oriented rather than all get 6's to hit like they do... Something along the lines of "So long as all models in the unit are firing at the same target, 6's auto wound" and it should *only* work on infantry, not tanks. It's bizarre to me that a shadowsword gets the same ability when it's obviously designed for flashlights. As for bolters, Some things that could be added (or all of them why not) for CSM and SMs IMO 1. Give all bolters a unique firing type called "Heavy Rapid Fire" which has both heavy & rapid fire characteristics. So the weapon could be buffed up in terms of number of shots & AP but give them the -1 to shoot penalty when moving with them. This would tie up with bolter discipline so people might think about getting more shooty with their bolt weapons. This would also make sitting still with your heavy bolter. 2. Give them an ability "Explosive Shells" where if a model with a bolt gun fires their weapon at an enemy with 6 or more models, the weapon gains 1 to its Heavy Rapid Fire numbers of attacks. (This would make marines that sit still and shoot get 4 shots, storm bolters/combi bolters would get 8 shots holding still, etc). 3. Boltguns always wound infantry, monster, or beasts on a 5+ to wound, and they always wound vehicles on a 6+ to wound. These wounds cannot be saved with a normal armor saving throw. While I'm tentative giving anything auto-damage, personally, I think it defeats the whole concept of roll to hit, roll to wound, roll to save.. it would be on theme of the rounds exploding through stuff. Naturally though, doing anything to boltguns will have an effect on combis/storm bolters, heavy bolters, etc... I'm not as worried about that though because standard marines can't take those generally speaking. So long as they leave the special boltguns to 1 per 5 or in elite units, it won't be a huge deal. Boltguns are weird as they, realistically, should just be higher strength/AP than any other ranged weapon...but when small pips of AP don't mean much anymore because of rampant invulnerable saving throws and strength doesn't mean much anymore cause of auto-wounds on hits or a bunch of "Add this and that and the other thing to your wound roll"... you're getting power creeped out of the fundamental concept of a boltgun which is "A simple gun that's stronger with more AP" to it not really meaning anything anymore.

[@ericmumper6821]

In reading through the Horus Heresy novels, one aspect of bolters that doesn't seem to be demonstrated in the rules is that sometimes there are injuries from the target exploding upon nearby combatants.

[@TheArklyte]

Take two teams of FPS players and give one a gun with infinite ammo, hitscan and ability to de facto "mark" targets for other players to shoot and the other - bolter. See whom is going to win every time. Bolter is nothing without specialized ammo. It replaced volkites(no, those weren't expensive, even Astra Militarum used them en masse in Unification Wars) for versatility that ammo options provided.

[@drakus40k]

I have to say, I HATE the special rules that only have an effect for a turn or two. It's confusing as hell. They need to get rid of all the damned doctrines and stratagems. Just bake whatever effects you want them to have into the individual unit rules. As much as people bitched that 2nd edition "Herohammer" was too complicated, as an old grognard, I'm going to say that 8th/9th edition are far far worse.

[@deathlytree434]

could just give them a rule. another pip of splash damage when hitting hordes of 11 or more (rapid fire 1 will be 2 D1 shots rapid fire 2 will be 4 D1 shots) and an additional ap when shooting a single target makes bolters godly in the hands of imperial fists imperial fists with some lucky rolls of 6 you could have a single bolter putting out 8 shots at D1 to a horde per marine. legacy of dorn would make it 2 D2 (possibly 4 D2 if rolls of 6) ap -1 shots per marine it would be a standard improvement to the boltgun with letting chance dictate if can become overpowered

[@Grim67894]

All bolters AP should be increased by 1 (problem solved). in an armor of contempt meta, it wont affect power armor that much more but will devastate low armor infantry (which it should)

[@Bluecho4]

Except in Tactical Doctrine, of course. If Bolters got an extra AP, it might make Tactical Doctrine usable.

[@reginlief1]

…eh, the way you’ve framed this, implies the gun itself is better, but you’re factoring in faction abilities, which have nothing to do with the weapon profile. This video should be more about how the guardsman is out-gunning an intercessor.

[@lion_mx]

Here's how to fix it: Remove Primaris Marines, make it just another armor mk. Give their equipment stats to Marines and Chaos Marines.

[@allegedcombustion9014]

GW is never going to backtrack on that

[@ThePlayplay64]

It's been a long time, but.. did 6's auto wounding not make Necrons kinda op years ago? I feel like in a spam list all those dice auto wounding...

[@johnfarscape]

It made me laugh that a Catchacan Guardsman is as Strong as a fully armoured space marine, some of them are even better shots or more skillful in combat 🤣, big E wasted a lot of time and effort making the Astartes when he could have just recruited his army strait from catchacan.

[@mohastgridlock]

TBF it's because the game is stupid

[@mohastgridlock]

9th edition is the best advertisement for playing Sigmar James ever invented

[@davidbowles7281]

Yup. It sure is.

[@shrobee]

Bolter sand bolt rifles should have the same profile, just give the options of bolt rifle, and give intercessors an extra attack

[@greyknight8192]

And yet .... Imperial Guard are still are not topping the tournament lists very much.

[@Rexir2]

This is why I run my primaris marines as a spearhead, dropping the bolt rifles for plasma incinerators. Sure, it makes them bad durability-wise, but they can then blast through most anything.

[@sellis5716]

I really like hammer of the emperor, it’s a very lore consistent way to buff guard. If you read any of their novels, plenty of examples where humble guardsman have heroically brought down astartes either with a well placed shot or weight of fire.

[@tomasdawe9379]

I mean we didn't need 'hammer of the emperor' for that though, example when my medic took the last wound off of a Trygon prime in 5th ed. 3+ hit 6+ to wound and then a failed 2+ save = one dead Trygon. I had to shoot half my army at it but the last wound was a las pistol

[@Corellian]

@@tomasdawe9379 I think Guard needed HotE, because they needed something to generate more armour saves that wasn't amping the Strength or AP-value of their weapons

[@rileysmith7763]

I’ve heard it said that every guardsman on the table represents ten guardsmen in lore. My head-cannon is that a Hammer Of The Emp shot is an instance where ten guardsmen hit the same target at the same time. Bolter should still be more terrifying on the table, but GW balance is GW balance

[@Pimpulus]

i see no problem with this. i just think that "weaker" is a missleading term. a bolter still has S4 and a lasgun S3, so the boltgun is "stronger", as it should be. the math just shows that the lasgun is the more efficient choice, pts wise. and why shouldnt it be?

[@finlayames6216]

It’s not about points. A lasgun on average out damages a bolter against everything that isn’t T3. If that’s not “stronger” (by which it’s clear he means more effective, not the weapons strength stat) then I don’t know what is

[@Pimpulus]

@@finlayames6216 and why is a lasgun being "more effective" than a bolter a problem?

[@thegorefatherdonkhorneleon5159]

Bolters have been the most disappointing thing in 40k since 8th ed. A .75 cal HEAP rocket should do something more than a pip of Str higher than a lasgun given lasers are terrible at penetration. We have reached the point where marines are better off trading their bolters for lasguns - the on 6 autowound ability is equivalent to spending a CP each shooting phase

[@bopaintsminis]

Taking away the lasguns' extra damage would put the guard all the way in the toilet. That will be tenth ed. Hide and watch.

[@ВасилийМорозов-л7х]

Maybe this solution is all too radical, but I think 40k needs a reset. GW really don't see how do their release policies affect the game. They make a few factions strong with new codexes, then make a balance fix, meaning that the rules change greatly between the release of two sets of concurrent codexes. Basically, even within one edition codexes are made to greatly varying standards. They should really try to make all the codexes in one try, then solve the existing problems, instead of making codexes and solving problems at the same time.

[@davidbowles7281]

It's not too radical at all.

[@Akranejames]

The Virgin Superhuman vs the Chad Conscript.

[@darko-man8549]

If GW moved away from D6 only they’d have so much more freedom

[@ravenRedwake]

The thing with the added AP from doctrines and the added damage from certain guns and the extra wounds on all marines means armor of contempt is a patch on all that, which effectively negates ap1 weaponry, so it turns a bolt rifle into a 30” bolter. Armor of contempt should be for terminators, dreads, and tanks. If leadership wasn’t bull crap, then you could have bolter weapons inflict leadership modifiers on non space marine units. But tyranids would somehow ignore it, commissars exist so guard would ignore it and it would be pointless, but if you saw your battle buddy take a round to the chest and get blow the fuck apart, it’s going to make you either terrified or recklessly enraged.

[@jarrakul]

I said in a previous comment that bolters suffer a lot from being the main gun that everyone has by default, and all the various special weapons being essentially straight-upgrades. If you want the bolter to fit its lore, you'd need to buff it very considerably, and probably debuff special weapons to make them more like sidegrades. Not sure how you'd manage to make that work across every codex without a full rules reset, though. There's also an issue of ranged attacks being far more dependant on the weapon and melee attacks being far more dependent on the character, which doesn't feel like it has to be true, but that's how the rules currently work.

[@allegedcombustion9014]

I mean a guy can swing a sword harder but he can’t shoot a gun harder

[@dudeduderson8046]

Space Marines will get "Rolls of 6+ Auto wound on all Bolter weapons" next mark my words.

[@fabr1cat0rgeneral94]

For the love of the Dark Gods don't give them any ideas

[@otaviolobo7989]

@@fabr1cat0rgeneral94 Power armour is the golden goose of GW... they will find a way to powercreep the astartes back to meta.

[@KageRyuu6]

In short, too much power creep and too many damn rules.

[@stripeybag6977]

Meanwhile the Necron Gauss flayer rifle users are going back to sleep.

[@davidbowles7281]

Flayers have been bad all edition.

[@changer_of_ways_999]

Necrons aren't even close to their lore in terms of strength.

[@VoskahMarkhov]

I returned to 40k after only previously playing 3rd edition and could not believe how weak bolters were in comparison. In the old AP system your standard bolter ignored 5+ armor saves entirely, and now you need an AP-2 weapon for that, which most bolter variations having no AP at all. Imperium weapons across the board feel so weak compared to most factions.

[@davidbowles7281]

Because marine armory and IG armory are stuck in 8th ed. (And necrons for that matter).

[@silver_kestrel]

Codex creep .... there the whole video. Done.

[@TheBirdMan9142]

Personally, I think EVERY bolt weapon in the game (heavy bolter, combi weapons…) should have one extra ap

[@JimH.]

Problem with that is -1 AP won't do much with armor of contempt. Outside of the tactical phase, it's irrelevant vs 1/2 the armies in game.

[@richard_n]

GW should give bolters an effect on natural 6s like Guard have with Hammer of the Emperor. Something like a MW, exploding, or an extra 1 damage. This would help the SM chapters so much right now. Of course you would have to nerf Sisters and the OP SM chapters like BA, DA, and such but that would make the game so much more balanced.

[@shawnfellows2498]

It has been established in the lore a few times that the Astartes Bolt weapons use a larger caliber bolt round then Guard or other normal humans so it isn’t something that’s completely a new idea. Name then Astartes Bolt Weapon or even say all marines are now armed with Godwyn pattern bolters of varying designs, Give them unmodified 6 to wound causes a MW in addition to any other damage. Hard set on a 6, can not be modified in any way + or -. Granted the Custodes and Sister players will complain unless they get it as well, cause they use the bolter too…. But they don’t need any help, especially Sisters who actually need some tuning down especially in the secondary area.

[@RaVNeFLoK]

Power armor is better than Custodes armor. Imperial guard las guns are better than space marine bolters. These tweaks have absolutely no basis in lore and fluff - it’s all about selling the next new strong stuff through massive power Creeps followed by wild and swingy nerfs - tweaking for tournaments and get people to chase the next thing. I do hope 40k 10th Ed will become less obnoxious again.

[@doots2843]

unfortunatetly as a chaos player I'm stuck with the joke of a bolter that has 4 0 1 while the primaris get all the good bolter variants. So any ranged legionarie squad I have is next to useless.

[@18almason]

This makes me think about necron Gauss Flayers.... lore they rip things down to the atoms but at Rapid fire1 S4 AP1 D1 it's just sad.

[@Haiphong778]

I have always been very much bothered by this. I feel like it's also another of the many issues with First Born having to share the roster with Primaris marines: To have the Primaris be so much superior, but without making them overpowered to unbalance the game, they have to "lower the par" by making first-born substantially weaker.... But it's gone to the point that they are even weaker than the line-standard guardsmen T_T It definitely ruins the setting for me. They want Tac-Marines to be obsolete without just writing them out of the codex entirely.

[@davidbowles7281]

I'd just legend the first born and be done with it myself.

[@Haiphong778]

@@davidbowles7281 Kinda sad to see, but true. I'd rather Space Marines just be Space Marines rather than this weird division. Every other faction is able to have a model update without having to split itself in two like this.

[@davidbowles7281]

@@Haiphong778 It's impossible to balance first born jumpers that can spam hammers vs the new primaris stuff. First born jumpers have to die, ie be legended.

[@jaredpatterson6215]

Primaris should have only ever been an optional upgrade to the already existing marines. Like x ammount of points per marine for some extra ranged weapons with the bolt rifles and another attack or something

[@davidbowles7281]

@@jaredpatterson6215 Why? They are trying to sell models. The old units need to be removed for balance reasons.

[@corvanphoenix]

I think it definitely sux.

[@s2korpionic]

*nah, I'd be a bit more cynical and say they're desperate in making primaris more relevant than the OG marines, hence the hilariously weak boltgun. should've stuck with a scaling upgrade geedubs, shouldn't have messed with the lore.

[@ChaosGaming965]

To this day i'm still upset my average Bolter is S4 AP0 DMG 1, lore wise alone Bolter should be at least AP-1.

[@calebbarnhouse496]

The bolter doesn't really make sense to give AP it blows up when it hits a target, if anything a 6 should have it blow up when it makes contact and you get a roll to apply another wound

[@ChaosGaming965]

@@calebbarnhouse496 Lorewise during the Horus Heresy your average bolter didnt have any AP, but during the Horus Heresy Bolter ammo was changed to pen ceramite armor which the Loyalists would copy for their own rounds by the end, less they've changed their ammo again it should still pen

[@calebbarnhouse496]

@@ChaosGaming965 the problem is bolter rounds penetrate small amounts of armor, not armor universely, which means that ap isn't a fitting attribute, they should be good when the peirce armor, but struggle to peirce heavy armor

[@ChaosGaming965]

@@calebbarnhouse496 But we're fine with a Chainsword doing AP-1 and not a Bolter with Minimal AP?

[@calebbarnhouse496]

@@ChaosGaming965 chainswords quite frankly have no logic behind them on any level, chainsaws are terrible weapons against anything with fabric or hair, while by these times you could very made to be harder to clog, it's not like it'll be good for it, so if anything the weapon should be stronger then it is stat wise, but get a penalty vs light infantry which has the stuff that will clog it up

[@luckylarry71]

(cheapest MEQ troop) Bolter: Rapid Fire1 24" S4 AP0 Dam1 (second most expensive MEQ troop) Marksman Bolt Carbine: Rapid Fire 1 24" S4 AP0 Dam1, *auto-wounds on unmodified 6s *GAUSS GUARD* - luz, EZ 😂

[@mathewo6772]

You're not comparing like like. Don't say you're comparing weapons, when comparing external factors. Rubbish commentary.

[@genericname4739]

Something of not that I a Guardsmen player abuse is First Rank Fire! Second Rank Fire! And if I'm not mistaken Guard orders effect fellow squads within 6in" (If nit there is a relic) making one squad with Rapid Fire 2 to basically any squad 12" (Normal), 15" (Vostoryn), or 18" (Armageddon) of the enemy to spew forth massive walls of las fire.

[@mordredoforkney6185]

Spess Marin: "Hawhaw, I am so honorable and brave. Can't kill me, regguhler people." Ratling Sniper: "Dum Dum took his helmet off, hee hee." *Cooks Marines Face*

[@FrstSpctr88]

What they could have done for Boltgun (Not the primarse rifles, better off being cawl's disregard for the caliber of Boltgun for smaller caliber for his rifles) is to make them deal D2 on UMW 6... To define the shot hitting something critical and blowing up such important piece off. On other hand AP system could have been made into "AP5-1" which would mean it penetrates Armor Saves of 5+ by 1, Melta would be AP2-4, Plasma AP2-3 or AP3-3 and so on... Would be throw back to 7th ed but AP would not always negate armor saves. Armour of Contempt wouldn't exist. But I dunno, as it implies different set of balance issues. Then again since Armour of Contempt, Boltguns could be given AP-1 as against Power Armour it wouldn't be that bad, as gw wants boltguns to not hit with good AP against power armor...

[@chasseurdedemon]

I guess all bolter should be at least AP-1 S4 as a common patern. Than modifie range/Str/AP/Dam for variant. And why AP-1 should be normally applie, because AoC. That will make the bolter shine without reducing the resilicience of SoB/SM/CSM etc that will make the Bolter efficient against light armoured infantry (as they were supposed to do) and very inefficient against Armored infantry (like it was not supposed to do, yes Horus and Lorgar XD)