BI112916 Lomachenko Walters and more Ward Kovalev fallout

Recap of Lomachenkos' dominant win over Walters and more fall out from Ward-Kovalev

[@MikeStock88]

Interesting point about the judges watching through the ropes, I asked Lederman how to improve judging and he said that raising the chair of the Judges would help a lot, but he said they can't because of the ringside spectators I thought the ref did a shocking job in that fight and there are some great videos of all the ridiculous fouling that went on without so much as a warning Great video, love listening to your insight

[@mcriss79]

I talked to a good friend of mine @work the Monday after & he said he turned the fight off around the 10th round, then he was shocked to hear me tell him Ward won a UD, everyone I've talked to said the same thing. It wasn't a straight robbery but imo the wrong decision, i kinda wonder what happens it Sergey lands that right hand flush in the 2nd instead of how he did, it wasn't that clean. Islander, what are your thoughts on Katie Taylor & her fast track towards a world title? We were talking boxing again & I stand by my statement that she is probably the best technical female fighter I've seen since Lucia Rijker years ago, they're already talking a catch weight possibility vs Braekhus down the road. Great to see ya back!

[@OlVeil]

I agree with everything you said about the judging issues and the way it could and should be solved. The sport of boxing should definitively take advantage of the new technologies, not only for scoring rounds, but also for injury issues, knockdowns and many other things. Was a cut caused by a headbutt or a punch? We go to the replay. Did one fighter's glove touch the canevas? We go to the replay. Was it a slip? Replay. Was it a low blow? Replay. Inbetween rounds, one minute should be enough time to rule over these things, but if you look at hockey it takes sometimes nearly 5 minutes, sometimes even more, to rule if the puck crossed the red line or not, if a deflection with a skate was intentional or not, etc. So I'm not to optimistic about it in the end, but let's hope they try something at least. But yes, referees should be sitting apart in different rooms, with a giant flat screen TV. But I want to ask you about the sound. I know, this consideration may seems a little exaggerated, but to me, it seems that in the Kovalev-Ward fight (and that's just one example), the crowd may have played an important role (even though it should not influence the judging in any way) as it roared everytime Ward throwed a jab. On the other hand, if a referee doesn't have an audio feed of the fight, it would be hard for him to assess many things in my opinion (did the blow land flush or did it just graze one's head?). I attended many championship fights too (certainly not as much as you did) and you're right that when you look at it afterward on TV, it's quite different. But again, the sound itself is very different too and this time, I would say we lose something important on TV, and that is.. you don't get to really "feel"/hear which shots are landing cleanly and heavily. On TV, they all sound the same to me ("Psssh!-psssh!"). But when I attend an actual fight and can really feel and hear the difference between these "psssh!-psssh!" and a real BANG! (sounds more like a "clak!" to me, but anyway..). I was very impressed once again by Lomachenko. All superlatives have already been said about him and he proved that he is one of the best pound 4 pound, no doubt about it. Lomanchenko wishes to fight Vargas and that would be explosive! Vargas has been involved in my 2015's and 2016's fights of the year (so far). So of course, I would love to see that match up. The name of Pacquiao as been mentioned also, but I didn't really see the point until I heard what you had to say about that. Still, I think Pacquiao is too old, too slow now for that kind of challenge. But if we could go back in time and make Lomachenko fight the the 5 or 10 years ago-version of Pacquiao, it would be memorable bout for sure. You are right on one thing, Pacquiao is a monster against southpaws, but regarding his punching power, I think it's gone. He didn't score a KO victory since he stopped Cotto in the 12th in 2009. The fight I would really love to see is Lomachenko-Crawford. Crawford was until now the #1 P4P on my list, but Lomanchenko just surpassed him I think. I don't feel like anyone at 126 or130lbs will be willing to try the ukrainian anyway. Thanks a lot for your videos!

[@soloM81]

I agree tv vs live is a big difference

[@MrFNWO1]

On a side note I was very disappointed by the lack of promotion from RocNation. The PPV numbers for this fight where garbage considering the magnitude of he fight.

[@P4p775]

This is the reason why stork I'm slowly merging to the UFC. Only 2 belts in each weight class, everyone forced to fight each other. Welcome back Geesh!! The other guys like 97 ruff, guardyourgrillboxing, and the most controversial of all blood boxing are in oblivion.

[@CountofMonteFi3t0]

great stuff again. with regards ward kovalev. our British commentators always say especially if it's a fighter fighting in a champions back yard then the challenger wouldn't get a decision unless he "snatches and grabs" the title away from the champion ie it needs to be clear and decisive or the away challenger wouldn't get some decision. usually about fighting in Germany lol

[@DirkDiggler632]

Yeah they say that because fighters get robbed blind in Germany. That's why you have to do more. But does that make it right or even legal? No.

[@princekody]

that's true that's the advantage champions get after working hard getting the title and defending it especially from some1 like a super champion like kovalev.

[@catasyou]

Just for the record Lampley has gone on record that he thinks Kovalev won. Also as a weekend preview you could do it for the big russia ncard or at least for the mai nevent of that which is the mouth watering encounter between Lebedev and Gassiev.

[@MrAlipatik]

then Ward don't want a rematch..

[@arnoldwayne5402]

One thing ive been curious about asking u islander, and u just reminded me in this video is which fights have u seen live? Any fighters that are in hall of fame?

[@boxinginfo]

They were all garbage, most prominent was The 1986 WBA Heavyweight title fight between Tony TNT Tubbs and Terrible Tim Witherspoon.

[@arnoldwayne5402]

boxinginfo LOL

[@arnoldwayne5402]

boxinginfo Ok islander, what is your take in this fantasy match up: canelo vs Julian Jackson at 154

[@arnoldwayne5402]

boxinginfo Also Cervantes/Arguello at 140

[@markdooley8256]

Hi, I get what you are saying with the judges, but I saw the video of the HBO broadcast and I scored it the same as the three judges. I honestly do not understand how your colleague can see the 2nd half of the fight and say Kovalev won it. He probably was swayed by HBO's scoring. I did not take any notice of what Lampley, Kellerman or Lederman were saying and scored it as I saw it. I have not watched it a second time just once.

[@boxinginfo]

My colleague doesn't watch boxing regularly.

[@mosesalvarez9476]

Hey Islander, as far as the scoring in isolated rooms, didn't the WBC operate like at one time? or for questionable decisions judges were forced to justify their scorecards? Another thing, can you upload or redo the top Mexican fighters? and where are the dream fights!

[@mdmac92]

What's your opinion on scoring rounds even? It's frowned upon by the commissions these days, but I find that when you score the very close rounds 10-10, you tend to get a much clearer picture of how the fight actually went. When judges are told to avoid even rounds at all costs, they usually pick the winner of close rounds based on whether they favor the boxer or the aggressor. Because of that, you can end up with widely disparate scores like Lederman (who scored wide for Kovalev) and Malignaggi (who scored wide for Ward). I think that if judges were encourage to score close rounds 10-10, you would get a much tighter range of possible scores and a better picture of how the fight unfolded. The downside of course is that you don't want scorecards with 11 even rounds like that one judge had it for Leonard-Duran. But I think some fights are just that evenly matched and you shouldn't force judges to split hairs since they often split the hairs based on their subjective opinions. Namely, whether they prefer the boxer or the puncher style.

[@boxinginfo]

Take a wild guess when even rounds became relatively extinct. Circa 1988 when 15 round fights went the way of the Dodo bird.Even numbered round fights have little room for evenly scored rounds. That one judge in Duran-Leonard I had it 3 rounds Duran 2 rounds Leonard and 10 even and still got the result right.

[@DrowsyMongoose]

Loma-Pac isn't gonna be a De La Hoya situation. I don't think Arum wants to do it next though. It'd be interesting to see if Vasyl can maintain his poise against Manny.

[@DrowsyMongoose]

Can't say I agree about Crawford. Errol Spence seems to have P4P potential. We'll see what happens.

[@princekody]

lomachenko has more p4p quality than the hyped up prospect like spence.

[@DrowsyMongoose]

I'm impressed with how he uses his gifts. For one thing, he's a concentrated body puncher. Lomachenko is P4P #1 in my opinion though.

[@arnoldwayne5402]

I have to say that even though Loma dominated walters, I still think a fighter with a similar pressure style as Salido would give him problems

[@boxinginfo]

I agree and think he would beat Salido in a rematch - Francisco Vargas would be somewhat interesting.

[@arnoldwayne5402]

boxinginfo Yes, he would beat salido in rematch. I think the perfect mix of volume with aggression would give loma fits every time.Loma, like most great boxers is very patient, and 9 times out of ten that same patience gets disrupted by high volume pressure. Like Chavez stated prior to match, u cant let boxers like mayweather or loma think, other wise your asking for a white wash!

[@162773]

Fantasy match up Lomachenko vs brian mitchell

[@boxinginfo]

Better fight would be Chavez/Nelson/or Arguello at 130 vs Lomachenko.

[@arnoldwayne5402]

I think its too premature to say; Loma needs more legacy fights but on style alone I would favor the chavez that was mentally focused at 130

[@lane99]

People who aren't content with Kovalev being robbed are shooting themselves in the foot by employing the "benefit of doubt goes to the champ" argument. Since you're therefore implicitly admitting the fight was a coin toss. It wasn't. To get a winning score for Ward, you have to give him rounds he clearly lost. If the official judges dutifully, in lock step, award the decision to the fighter who lost, that's a robbery. End of. Just because Ward might have eked out enough rounds to make it something less than a landslide victory for Kovalev doesn't magically erase the fact that Kovalev was robbed. I suppose it wouldn't have been a robbery if they awarded the gold medal in the 100M to Justin Gatlin, because he only finished 1/10 of a second behind Bolt.

[@DirkDiggler632]

Kovalev was the champ so....?

[@oliverberry6761]

Anthony Joshua defending against Eric molina on the same night as Crawford, if you have any interest in that.

[@boxinginfo]

Not sure either fight is going to be competitive.

[@DirkDiggler632]

Appreciate the response Islander and respect your opinion too but I still disagree. I understand very well that Kovalev is a respected champion and of a higher calibre than the paper titlists that we have around. However the rules don't suddenly change for him. "Taking the title from the champion" is a romantic notion and I can appreciate the sentiment but where in the rulebook does it state that you need to do that? If anyone can show me where that is in the rules of boxing, I'll hold my hands up. And what does it actually mean? Apart from being a clever phrase, it's also a platitude. If someone beats Usain Bolt in the 100m final at the Olympics, do they need to beat him by a full length? No, it only takes a hair's breadth. Did Rafa Nadal have to win 3 sets to love against Federer at Wimbledon in 2009? No, he edged him in the 5th. Why in boxing do we have this notion that you have to do more than win to win? Over here we would say Andre Ward "nicked" the fight which basically means he stole it but a win is a win.

[@boxinginfo]

To answer all of that you wrote> Yes it might be a romantic notion as I have a romantic notion about 15 round title fights (meaning Delahoya wouldn't have lasted if he had to participate in them) BUT and this is a BIG BUT all of your examples about Bolt and Wimbledon are all well and good BUT a boxing decision as you know is humanly SUBJECTIVE the same way there is monster controversy in Olympic Figure skating and Gymnastics because of SUBJECTIVE Scoring. I have come to learn over the past several years that not everybody sees a fight through the same lens I do and that's okay.

[@DirkDiggler632]

I don't buy into that 15 round theory either. Fighters today train for 12. If it was 15, they'd train for 15. I always hear that this guy would've won if it had been 15 rounds. Funnily enough I heard that about Froch-Ward because Ward gassed in the last couple rounds and my response was that Ward would've probably paced himself better and still won. That's a good point about it being subjective scoring. I don't know enough about figure skating or gymnastics but don't they grade on overall performance? Wheras boxing is round by round. Like if you fuck up and fall over in gymnastics, they take points off you which you can't get back? Whereas Ward gets knocked down but he can still win enough rounds to claw back the deficit. To me saying "he didn't do enough to beat the champ" is looking at the fight as an overall picture and completely negates the 10 point must system which is a round by round process. Same as when someone looks at Compubox. Out of curiousity - what is your definition of "taking the title from the champion"? This reminds me of why I enjoyed your videos. You can't have a decent and reasonable boxing debate anywhere else on the shitstorm that is the internet without it turning into a name calling fest lol. Always good discussion on here!

[@boxinginfo]

Definition of taking the title from the champion - A. Beat the champion by stoppage or KO B. absolutely dominate the fight to a clear decision example Ricky Hatton over Juan Urango C. win a decision when the challenger does "more" than the champion Example Michael Spinks over Eddie Mustapha Muhammad. Examples when this has not happened, Floyd Mayweather's aggregious gift over Jose Luis Castillo in their first fight - no way in hell he took the champions title. Lupe Pintor's gift decision over Carlos Zarate, and Wilfredo Gomez' gift hometown decision against Rocky Lockridge. Compare Ward's win over Kovalev, it doesn't qualify for criteria A, it doesn't qualify for criteria B it doesn't even qualify for criteria C YET it is no where near the league of the fights listed in the paragraph above this.

[@arnoldwayne5402]

right, unfortunately its becoming common practice in boxing to give fight to the guy who slaps pitty pat punches like mayweather. Ive seen way to many incidents like these

[@arnoldwayne5402]

Worst case scenario the fight should have been declared a draw where Kovalev would have kept his titles