Bill Gothard & Complementarianism: Does it link to abuse?

[@fishtail1129]

That analogy of a cattle driver vs. a shepherd - I love that! That is so applicable to parenting as well.

[@jillcolvin4196]

A good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. My husband demonstrates his love for our family by being the first to sacrifice. Its easy to follow a leader who loves his sheep so much he willingly lays down his life for them! My dad, grandparents, uncles all demonstrated gentility and sacrifice for their families.

[@JamesRichardWiley]

I am not a sheep. I am a thinking atheist.

[@jillcolvin4196]

@@JamesRichardWiley are you just on this feed to harrass, then? Most true intellectuals understand a force greater than self.

[@desa415]

This sounds nice but as a Christian I don't agree. The Bible teaches men to submit to their wives in Ephesians 5:21, 25-28. Paul the Apostle and other writers of the Bible, call women and slaves the spiritual equal before Gods' thrown. but they didn't agree with slavery and thought women spiritual equals. So why tell them to submit? Because they acknowledged that this situation existed in society, and they were teaching on how to deal with it. But if women and slaves are equal before God's thrown, they must also be equal on Earth. (Mathew 18:18). Father does not always know best. Patriarchy has done nothing but cause suffering for women throughout history.

[@TempleofChristMinistries]

There are two powers of submission one is fear and one is love, if I serve out of love I serve willingly, but if I serve out of fear I do it to protect myself, if I serve out of fear the one who rules over me rules by The Power of the Sword, and we see this in many places in many situations, yet when the sword is removed I am no longer in service, but if I serve out of love then in service I remain, for I serve willingly, wholeheartedly, delightfully assuredly, happily.

[@staceylaszlo6321]

I'm a PW for nearly 30 years and have personally witnessed many Christian husbands who misuse their role and authority in the home. I also have seen homes and marriages ruled by the wife. The fact is that there is selfishness and sin involved.

[@merc8es]

The irony is how often it is the woman who spiritually shepherds the family. "The hand that rocks the cradle still fraternizes with destiny." Men and women are spiritually equal.

[@thefoundfountain1855]

I don't think "comp" leads to abuse if the man is following what Jesus said about love. Kinda hard to want to hurt someone if you love them as much as Jesus loves the church. Like most of us here, I watched Mike's video series and I now put myself as middle complementarian. When my wife is mad or on edge, I have to be extra soft most of the time to help her calm down (not always. Sometimes you also need to stand your ground firmly but lovingly) But as the man, you need to also be there for her in all things. Marriage is so hard. But there is abuse in all groups and we need to all stand against it!

[@thefoundfountain1855]

On a side note, I was worried about Mike Winger's study because I listen to a lot of women Apologists and teachers. I am glad that I can still listen and learn from all sources because, like so many others, I wasn't sure what scripture was saying perfectly. I knew women shouldn't be leaders in a church but not to what extent. Thanks for your channel Alisa!

[@8784-l3b]

@@thefoundfountain1855 Since a woman could be a pastor in the Old Covenant, a woman can be a pastor in the New Covenant. Simple really. I suggest my short and free essay on Deborah. Men and women are perfectly equal spiritually. She was a pastor, according to the scriptures. This is how the Judges are described in Chronicles, by God. A woman could only be given the authority by God to execute a man for his sin, if women are spiritually equal to men. A Judge could judge homicide cases according to Deuteronomy. Therefore Deborah, as a Judge, could execute a man for his sin. A Judge was cleared to teach from scripture as he/she gave a verdict, according to Deuteronomy. Since in Judges 4, men went to Deborah to be judged, a woman could teach men, even in the Old Covenant in a public setting. ALSO: Paul wasn't a perfect teacher. So what he wrote regarding women and men is called into question. That is another free essay should you or anyone wish pasted up.

[@tomking7367]

The great Reverend Martin Lloyd Jones often recited; “You’ll find the Devil in the extremes”.

[@misc7628]

This whole conversation was incomprehensible to me. What in the world is this topic about? Where do you stand on this issue? Can you summarize the issue? I do not even understand what the issue is. I feel like new words are made up to condemn anyone who disagrees with a concept. I am sincerely trying to learn something here.

[@trss8674]

I don't go to women only bible studies any more because it's so depressing listening to all the wives talk about how submission is causing them so much sadness.

[@aneber1811]

What would you say to them? We need women showing us a better alternative.

[@sparaxisblanc2473]

Did these men imply that Gothard's teachings AREN'T at fault? Bad ideas hurt people, guys.

[@heidia.8097]

Isn’t Bill Gothard more patriarch then Complementerian?

[@greggpurviance7252]

Yes

[@jrbontje2415]

Comp is patriarchy...or almost completely the same.

[@PaulBurdo]

Complementarianism teaches in the Danvers Statement, Affirmations #6, and #7 that “the wife should forsake resisting the husband’s authority”, except if he requires her “ to follow him into sin”. This is a mishandling of scriptures, and teaches the traditions of men for doctrine, as it teaches that the husband as head, means that he is the authority of the woman, rather than the source THATS responsible. This robs the wife by definition of the authority to exercise the most sacred endowment of agency that God has given her, resulting in the abomination of marital rape in many complementarian homes. Why are you talking to these men rather than Darby Strickland, Dr. Diane Langberg, Leslie Vernick, Sharmen Kimbrough, Rachel Denhollander and so many other counselors who deal with the fallout of abuse from the pulpit to the sanctuary of the bedroom? Honestly Alisa, you really can do better!

[@desa415]

The Bible teaches than men must also submit to their wives in Ephesians 5:21, 25-28. The Bible also teaches that women and slaves are equals before God's thrown. So why do Apostles Paul and Peter teach women and slaves to submit, when they acknowledge their spiritual equality in Heaven? They are simply recognizing that this is how it works on Earth, and they are teaching people how to deal with it. But if women and slaves are equal before God's throne, shouldn't they also be equal on Earth? (Matthew 18:18) There's no "complimentary relationship" if one person has more authority than the other. This can only happen between two equals. I highly recommend that people read "Women at the Crossroads" by Kari Malcolm. It was published in the 1980s, but the Biblical truth is still relevant today.

[@_derpderp]

Answering the thumbnail directly: Not in and of itself necessarily however institutionally defending it as dogma absolutely has. Additionally protecting “brand identity” has, in the case of the SBC, engendered cover-ups of said abuse. This is not so unlike the Catholic church hiding priest and nun abuse made possible by dogmatic adherence to unbiblical positions. Ps. Do a real study on the word translated “rib” or (better but still lacking) “side” while considering the historical usage of it in “biblical” exegesis in the west in just the last couple hundred years. I think you may find more evidence to support an equalitarian perspective. P.s. “unbiblical” for Gothard and “quiver-full movement” is understating it. Clearly just because cults and charlatans frequently use biblical texts to abuse and grift doesn’t make them “biblical”.

[@8784-l3b]

People need to know 2 things. #1) Understand Deborah well (I have a short free postable essay.) #2) Understand and know, that Paul wasn't a perfect teacher. (That is another free essay.) Commentary with scripture, with limited opinions.

[@leonaperdue8784]

Honestly. That’s a terrible insinuation regarding that study about equslitarianism. The commentary suggests a very false narrative. Men who use “biblical headship” as a weapon is not uncommon in the church. This state of affairs requires many women to have to protect herself and her children from the so called “shepherd” of the family. Please delve more deeply into the subject before speaking out on it

[@concernedkermit8190]

She has, watch her other content

[@arditienthusiast8384]

God's word reads how it does. Thats all that should matter. The Creator has a specific plan in mind on how a family should be run. How the church should be ran. How society should run. Our God is all knowing, all poweful and all good. His designs are not abusive. Man wickedness can lead to abuses which He does not condone. However, God does not change. He doesn't alter His plans due to our evil. We are to change to fit His plans. All these types of issues which frankly are only discussed because many in the body are poisoned against God's word and trusting Him by the world and its ideologies. I will leave one quote from scripture that can apply to this issue, lgbt issues etc. Acts 4:19 "Whether it is right in the sight of God to listen to you rather than to God, you must judge,"

[@Bruised-Reed]

Yes, it silences and prevents women in ministry….thats abuse in itself, and one of Satan’s master strokes….silencing half the church from teaching and ministry from a surface reading of some of the scriptures. The term complimentarism is abuse itself, it is a lovely word describing how different yet complementary men and women are, how dare they take this term to mean women can not lead or speak…when women preach they should preach like women, not men, that is how we learn and grown together. Calling one side complentarian and the other egalitarian is like calling one side right and wrong before the debate. Nobody believes men and women are equal or the same. But that is then a big jump to believing you can restrain one sex from leadership or teaching. I’ve been in churches where people get up and leave mid service when a women starts preaching…do they honestly think God can not use a woman who is under Gods authority to bring to them the gospel…if a person believes it is better to go outside into the world than to hear the word through a female mouth , I think they are abusing the Body and future Bride of Christ.

[@8784-l3b]

Unfortunately, few people know the story of Deborah AND what a Judge at that time period actually was. On top of this they see all of Paul's teachings as perfect. I've looked at some of what Paul wrote and he doesn't come out well. Deborah essay, free, read time 12 minutes My essay on some of Paul's teachings is longer. _______________________________________________________ PREFACE I have no intention of explaining how the email which I now offer to the web was downloaded to my drive. Readers are advised to remember that demons are liars. Not everything that Boltglue says should be assumed to be true, even from his own perspective. -S. Szpak Email #3 Nightowl, my dear brother I am truly disappointed that you haven't broken Nikita as yet. Two months ago you told me how close you were to total success. I encourage you to discourage her as much as possible. She may still do the right thing and take the coward's way out. These animals are just mortal beings. They always have the luxury of ending their miserable lives. We are immortal and superior. We never give up or surrender. I'm still using Claws in Pergamum where the Great King's throne is. I shouldn't have to send him to help you, but if I must I must. Your failure with Nikita will certainly be recorded into perpetuity. Something you don't want and something I will distance myself from. Encourage legalism. Our servants, the lawyers, were condemned by the Liar's son harshly in the New Words: But He said, “Woe to you lawyers as well! For you load people with burdens that are hard to bear, while you yourselves will not even touch the burdens with one of your fingers. And even more: Woe to you lawyers! For you have taken away the key of knowledge; you yourselves did not enter, and you hindered those who were entering.” The letter of the law kills, so let it do its job. Even the New Words say: But we know that the law is good,... So teach legalism. Teach that whatever a female speaks indoors has more weight than if she speaks it outdoors. Make sure "the pulpit" is a mystical place indoors, in their phony religion. Call it a 'sanctuary', whatever that is. If a female does speak from "the pulpit" be sure all in attendance know that she is only being ALLOWED TO SPEAK BECAUSE A MALE ALLOWED IT. It is still terrible, but at least it's something. -your just and older brother Boltglue

[@trss8674]

Submission equals sadness because if your husband says let's go live on the other side of the world from your family and social supports for the rest of our lives and you don't want to, you have to anyway, which will make you sad especially if you're prone to homesickness. Then, according to the Bible, you have to have sex with him even though you're feeling sad and angry with him. That's abusive. Complimentarians say you don't have to submit to sinful commands your husband gives you, but they're lots of commands that he can give you which are not sinful, like moving overseas, which can still cause you pain and sadness, and when they do that, that's abusive and you still have to separate your emotions from your body and have sex with him anyway.

[@augustinewilliam3855]

In complementarianism, a husband will never force anything on his wife. He loves his wife with Christ's love - unconditional love - not just when he has sex with her but even when she does not want. Jesus said of leadership, I have come to serve not to be served. That is the type of leadership exercised. There is absolutely no room for authoritarianism , tyranny , force or abuse.

[@trss8674]

Then that's not submission. Submission is doing something you don't want to do. And it happens a lot. I stopped going to women-only bible studies because it's too depressing listening to how sad the women are talking about the things their husbands are making them do that they don't want to do. And when they express sadness, both male and female leaders tell them you have to do it because your husband told you to.

[@8784-l3b]

@@trss8674 Men and women are equal, as stated in Genesis and confirmed in Judges 4. Then God said, “Let Us make mankind in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the livestock and over all the earth, and over every crawling thing that crawls on the earth.” So God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. -excerpt Genesis 1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. On the day when God created man, He made him in the likeness of God. He created them male and female, and He blessed them and named them “mankind” on the day when they were created. -excerpt Genesis 5

[@trss8674]

Of course men and women are equal in worth and when a wife submitts to her husband, she is still equal in worth to him. But submission causes women pain and sadness. I will never understand why complementarians think equality is why people reject complementarianism. It's not about whether men and women are equal. It's about the fact that submission hurts women. :)

[@8784-l3b]

@@trss8674 Complementarianism is a false teaching. _____________________________________________ Complementarianism The priesthood of the New Covenant is a 2-tiered priesthood based on birthright. That false and confusing teaching, that states Christian women are less than Christian men in a spiritual way, but they really aren't, but they really are. The complementarian teaching prohibits a Christian woman from holding certain positions in a church. They can't be elders neither can they teach men. So why is that? The false teaching makes it clear that the priesthood of the New Covenant is tiered. There is a hierarchy. Those that are higher, the men, can be in leadership positions, like elder. They can teach other men. Those in the lower tier can not be in leadership positions, like elder. They are prohibited from teaching men, because the men are in the higher tier. It wouldn't make any sense. A new believer is automatically assigned their level, higher or lower, at the moment of salvation, as a birthright. Their gender determines their tier. A Christian can not move to a higher or lower tier. A Christian that is in the lower tier (woman) is not allowed to complain of the tier she was placed in. That would be sin, because God made her a woman by His choice. She should accept and also embrace her position in the lower tier. A church, is either a group of Christian men or a group of Christian men and women. A church can never be a group of Christian women, because it would be a group of only those in the lower tier. It would have no elders. But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; for you once were not a people, but now you are the people of God; you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy. -excerpt 1 Peter 2 Since the teaching states that women are spiritually inferior to men, but they aren't, but they are, when did that start? But I do not allow a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a wrongdoer. -excerpt 1 Timothy 2 It started with the first woman. She was deceived, and sinned because of it. So we have a teaching that accepts that men and women are fallen beings. Both genders are sinful by nature. However women are different. They are lacking the ability that men have to judge if some situation, some concept or teaching is sinful. This inability was passed down from Eve to all women. It remains to this day. A woman in our time was 'lacking' from birth, even from the womb. So what can be done? Nothing according to Complementarianism. That is because an anointing of that powerful masculine being called the Holy Spirit, is just not sufficient. Even the Holy Spirit can not elevate even one Christian woman to the spiritually superior level of a Christian man.

[@greggpurviance7252]

Except patriarchy isn't Biblical

[@JamesRichardWiley]

As an anti-theist/agnostic I get to watch Christians disagree with one another over the details of a two thousand year old story about a godman that talked to and expelled demons and believed the end of the world was imminent. I used to be a player but I grew tired of listening to the threats and empty promises.

[@kaleido9631]

Your conservatism drives people away from God. No, Jesus is not "woke" but that doesn't mean he is your specific political party. Why be conservative when God is lenient and generous? That sounds like the opposite of conservative to me.

[@merc8es]

Read Roger Scruton or Thomas Sowell to find out about conservative philosophy. This is not representative of it.

[@westyso.cal.8842]

Only egalitarians and complementarians are having this discussion. For those of us that hold to Biblical Patriarchy, the issue is settled.