Black Panther: Wakanda Forever - Is It Good or Nah?

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[@iamjaboba]

Shuri's scene with Kilmonger was really interesting. How she said she wasn't sure the spiritual plane was real or not, and how instead of seeing her mother or brother or father, but instead seeing Kilmonger could show that she could lean to be less honorable compared to the rest of her family. I wished they explored her lack of belief in the spiritual side more in the first half of the movie

[@huaen8880]

I thought it was a missed opportunity that they didn't explore Shuri's lack of belief in tradition more. It is mentioned a few times, but it is barely touched on, and I thought that the theme of a young, highly technologically focused engineer not relating to the traditions of her ancestral past could have made for some compelling dilemmas. But no, the most we get is Killmonger telling Shuri "You didn't believe in the astral plane, did you?" and Shuri straight up saying "Why are you asking a girl with no respect for tradition?". That being said, I enjoyed the contrast of the astral plane tradition between the first and second film. In the first film, we get to see the full ritual in its natural context, while in the second film, we see an engineer try to reverse-engineer the ritual with barely any of the traditions associated with it. I thought the scene where Shuri was lying in a pristine lab drinking the artificial black panther tonic served as a great contrast to the first movie's much more traditional ritual.

[@erickamakeeaina1649]

I think it was foreshadowed fairly well from the start. With the mention of her questioning Bast's existance in the first line.

[@Ozzieapologist]

I think it also gives a bit more depth to Shuri’s final decision of basically abdicating in M’baku’s favor. Sure, she resisted the urge of killing Namor and go full Killmonger…but what if she gets pushed to the edge a second time? Or a third? M’baku proved that he’s both a fearsome warrior and a wise and charismatic leader so it makes sense that Shuri would choose him. Meanwhile she can still assist her homeland through her scientific prowess and her role as Black Panther, which she can embrace even better now that she’s free from the burdens that come with the crown.

[@DoctorKidemonas]

Agreed. I hope it gets brought up in future films. The Black Panther is an incredibly spiritual figure, and Shuri's... agnostic, at best.

[@ryleebarker9339]

Also a small detail is that after the kilmonger scene shuri goes to get her suit and instead of choosing the normal black and silver that tchala wore, she goes for the black and gold that kilmonger wore. Just a neat detail that showed how she thought more like kilmonger during that part of the movie

[@Del-Dokan]

My favorite part was when Namor and Shuri went back in time to the first Thanksgiving to get vibranium off the menu

[@Slipstream317]

yes.

[@Goldenboy-pe2ci]

*looks directly at camera* that’s right, they went back in time to the first thanksgiving to get vibranium off the menu.

[@adiarichardson9523]

This right, they went back in time to the first Thanksgiving to get vibranium off the menu.

[@an0rmalname179]

@@adiarichardson9523 And you beat me to it :D

[@1mrdwalk]

This is so right they went back in time to the first thanksgiving to get vibranium off the menu

[@nightfountain1197]

I like how Shuri was grieving the whole movie, not just for a little and then saying "I'm all better now!" Like other mcu stuff

[@bbittercoffee]

Like many other MOVIES* I still can't get over how in HtTyD Hiccup's mom is completely fine after she watched her husband DIE at the hands of a creature she and her son trusted a lot after not seeing her husband for almost two decades Like, there's barely anything, she's just "oop, gotta do the viking funeral now, after that to battle!"

[@emoji3266]

That’s not the sassy genius I know from the first movie

[@i.d.9754]

Like a shit ton of other media really. Things like that don't heal that fast

[@Excelsior1937]

@@emoji3266 What would you have done differently? It’s not like she was going to keep being sassy and quippy while grappling with her perceived failure to save her brother

[@GamerSlyRatchet1]

Seriously. It gave her a lot of depth she missed in the first movie.

[@makotoplush9776]

If anything, I'm beyond glad they didn't try AI generating Chadwick's face like for some of the actors in Rogue One and Boba Fett. It would've been really easy to do that or pretend T'challa is somewhere else like with Brian in Fast and Furious but I feel they really respected Chadwick as well as the character of T'challa. May he rest in peace

[@durrangodsgrief6503]

They did not

[@Username12038]

@@durrangodsgrief6503 how so?

[@durrangodsgrief6503]

@@Username12038 they killed of the character he created the character he toiled to bring to life despite suffering from cancer and how do they kill him. Off screen to an unknown illness Chadwick should have been the start of his own black panther lineage like that of superman or james bond instead they unceremoniously killed him out back and used his death as a ploy to manipulate other to feel sad and watch the movie out of "respect"

[@vivaraulito]

They did not respect the character of tchalla at all whatsoever they disrespected the shit out of him not only by killing him off twice but they literally full on replaced him completely in 10 years no MCU fan will ever speak about the character of tchalla everyone will have moved on they didn’t let the character do anything remotely special during his time in the MCU they even removed his insane IQ yea that’s right tchalla is supposed to be one of the smartest minds in all of marvel

[@vivaraulito]

@@durrangodsgrief6503 Fr and it sucks too because tchalla was supposed to be the first larger than life black hero and that was taken from us because Disney wanted to profit off our emotions and kill off his character just so we can pay our money just to watch his tribute smh

[@ohhhcrud..]

Something that I really liked about this movie was Shuri's fight with religion. Was super relatable to me , wanting the help of whatever power you believe in but being extremely skeptical at the same time. Havent seen many character arcs like that before

[@sambeard5208]

I wish that they gave that way more attention

[@osehietomi123]

tradition not religion

[@TheDiabeticGameMaster]

If you like books then check out Brandon Sanderson's writing, especially the first Mistborn Trilogy, Warbreaker, and The Stormlight Archive. He's really good at writing stuff like that and as a Mormon who has sympathy for other peoples religions or lack there of and potential struggle with, he adds an authenticity and nuance to some amazing character arcs and topical discussions of religion that I have seen nowhere else. Seriously, if you like books, give Mistborn a shot. I'm sure you are likely too enjoy it!

[@ohhhcrud..]

@@osehietomi123 I think it’s a mix of both , she’s seen praying at the very beginning of the movie

[@ohhhcrud..]

@@TheDiabeticGameMaster thanks a lot man !! I’ll have to check it out

[@realRatRat]

riri is a weird addition because she’s basically the same as shuri was in the first movie, a sassy scientific genius

[@savioblanc]

When Bruce Banner became a part of the Avengers, it was basically 2 humans who were both smart scientific geniuses but of course the issue was Banner and how he was also the Hulk. It led to some tension between the 2 characters. But as Banner was able to control the Hulk, the tension dropped and both were now 2 super geniuses in the same team. But by that time, there was enough character development of both men that audiences didn't mind. With Shuri and Riri, there is no tension, no concerns that either Shuri or Riri might go rogue, no rivalry. It's boring

[@TheCloudeGraves]

@@savioblanc They could've absolutely made Riri more interesting just with a tiny bit of actual rivalry between her and Shuri (or the other heroes of the film). Instead she is just... there, getting along with everyone while adding basically nothing beyond being a human McGuffin.

[@forestelforesto2897]

I really appreciate they did not do a rivalry thing. They’re young, gifted black women who don’t see each other as competition but as counterparts

[@savioblanc]

@@forestelforesto2897 it's a nice thought but there needs to be a very good villain then for them to handle. Hopefully that's part of the next MCU phase otherwise it's boring af

[@savioblanc]

@@TheCloudeGraves exactly. I'm not saying they should be competing with each other. Tony Stark and Bruce Banner were never jealous of each other's smarts. The concern was Bruce Banner's control of the beast within. So what's the tension here between Riri and Shuri? This just becomes that "sisters, sisters" song or shud I say, "sistas, sistas", which whilst being cute, is boring for the audience

[@IronBeagle2003]

The acting is phenomenal for me. Not only are these characters mourning another character but the actors playing them are mourning a family member in real time.

[@diogosilva2850]

@Checkmark shut the hell up bot

[@mikecomer3505]

No it was ass they are just black so your trying to hard

[@beanburrito1002]

@Checkmark. What the fuck

[@TheNerd4565]

@@mikecomer3505 what the fuck

[@joshhoekstra4163]

@@mikecomer3505absolute facts.. worst movie I have ever seen

[@losj3020]

I think it's nice to see Marvel kinda slow down a bit and take a more character driven approach for this movie, especially for the ending. This is the kinda ending I wanted for Shang Chi, honestly, the more intimate and introspective look at the character. And I really appreciate how tastefully they handled Chadwick's death. They didn't show his face after death but he felt present throughout the movie. I'm also really glad that they didn't try to "upgrade" his death like making him die of enemy attack or something because of the T'Challa character. It both humanizes T'Challa and made a point to show that someone surviving and eventually passing away while fighting an illness is already a brave way to go

[@suezcontours6653]

Well, they wanted an Oscar nomination. I don't know what else you could do for a movie like this. Heath Ledger's Joker won him an Oscar

[@ShadowSonic2]

@@suezcontours6653 Angela Bassett got a Golden Globe for this.

[@Double-R-Nothing]

The fact that I wasn't laughing my ass off at a shirtless guy in a speedo with winged feet shows the quality of the filmmaking.

[@TheEverythingBagel]

My problem was that I WAS laughing and I can’t tell if that’s my fault or the fault of the plot being pre-written and forced by Disney into a story about a grieving family

[@i.d.9754]

As an occasional comic reader, Namor is honestly really damn respectable. The guy has done some seriously respectable shit

[@fulcrum6760]

@@i.d.9754 That too. Sucks people only see him as a dickhead in the comics.

[@christopheralejandromezapa8934]

@@i.d.9754 jajajajajajajjaj

[@FlareDope]

Sounds like immaturity to me

[@ObiJohnKenobi67]

I like how Namor never went into cartoonishly evil territory. The entire time his actions stayed true to his characterization and he never was overly brutal just for brutality’s sake.

[@carlotta4th]

Personally I thought he was kind of bland and his world domination quest came out of nowhere. "Just" a villain.

[@nutrock522]

No matter your opinion on the film, I think we can all agree that Chadwick was a fantastic human being and may he rest in peace

[@nutrock522]

@I'll say when it's time 🅥 go away bot.

[@-Noro-]

@@nutrock522 don't reply to them

[@nutrock522]

@@-Noro- aight

[@Beebo-gl5yb]

Ok to be honest you got a point no matter the film his passing was sad ,he was an amazing actor

[@GabrielGarcia-qr5wm]

Wow what a controversial opinion

[@MoonWielder]

Yes, it was a little long, but still, what a great tribute to his contribution and legacy to the franchise they gave to Chadwick Boseman. I'm also glad that this wasn't a comedy, and I think we need more serious movies like this in the MCU.

[@grasshoarjp7417]

No bro they used his death to make money

[@dip.918]

@@grasshoarjp7417 *Actor in the largest movie franchise with a planned sequel dies* "Damn, guess Wakanda and Black Panther have to be erased from canon. I mean, we wouldn't want to make money from his passing!" No, that's stupid. Them going ahead and treating both his non-fictional and fictional death with dignity whilst continuing his character's legacy far outweighs whatever nialist viewpoints you have on a real person's -- that just so happens to play a large character -- death.

[@emoji3266]

@@grasshoarjp7417 The best way that they can respect Chadwick Boseman is by not making a Black Panther movie. Like what is the point of this movie other than money? I’m right when I said the MCU died alongside Tony Stark.

[@ArynBacklogDragon]

@@dip.918 I guarantee you that if Tom Holland died they would he very quick to recast Spiderman. Chadwick helped popularize black Panther and he himself said before that he'd want someone to pick up the mantle of T'Chala after him, so did his family. Making the movie about his character dying I'm the same wah the actor did doesn't honor him. It's disgustingly manipulative.

[@boo9781]

@@emoji3266 ah yes, completely eliminating his legacy and the biggest piece of representation in the mcu surely screams “respect”. Also, as someone who hates endgame and everything that came after, don’t try to push you subjective opinions on others. I hate phase four but that doesn’t mean this movie is bad or that everyone has to hate it

[@christopherjove7035]

What I really like is that every character gets fleshed out and gets their own time to shine. Like each character has their own struggles to work through and it makes them all feel so much more relatable.

[@John_James]

Riry so relatable right became iron heart at age of 19 is a knock off

[@theshadowman8801]

@@John_James I forgot she existed.

[@formerctgovernordannelmall1452]

I honestly thought Namour’s Hermes-style ankle wings were actually really well utilized in an action sense. I love the way it looks like he really does move more fluidly through the air than a ton of other fliers we’ve seen throughout the movies. The only time I agree with public consensus is when he’s just hovering mid air. Except for the introduction scene where he was kept in dark lighting, the hovering ALWAYS looked lame

[@The_Jackpurgis]

Also, it makes the "feathered" part of "feathered serpent" make a bit of sense!

[@mochiblz]

Namor*

[@Rafael_Peixoto]

Well it makes sense he can fly better than the other MCU characters, he had some 300 years to practice

[@jasonjones3328]

@@Rafael_Peixoto I mean Thor is like 3000 to be fair

[@sarasaland4709]

You can tell Chadwick's extremely unfortunate demise caused a lot of rushed rewrites and made the script suffer.

[@damiantirado9616]

I doubt the script would’ve been better cause the first black Panther was pretty mediocre

[@charlesismail5629]

Actually I think that the rewrite was really well handled

[@Blue-Apple-fc9eo]

I thought script was great and even way better then most phase 4 marvel movies/show.

[@errwhattheflip]

@@Blue-Apple-fc9eo Which isn't saying a whole lot considering that 90% of phase 4 is a pile of shit.

[@Blue-Apple-fc9eo]

@@errwhattheflip Really? I thought loki Shang chi and the legend of ten rings and werewolf by night were pretty good and great.

[@nyom6378]

Talking about Namor and all of his backstory as well as his people, dude I cannot even begin to tell you how much he was loved in Mexico. It's so compelling to see a Mexican character actually well done, well written and represented. Not only him but a couple of Mexicans were there, like Lupita Nyong'o (as always doing an amazing job). I just loved it and the appreciation I've seen towards the movie in Mexico has been huge.

[@crablord7934]

I liked how the scientific mind of Shuri kinda gets in the way of her spiritual side and ability to properly grieve, it's such a fascinating angle and although I think they could've done more with that concept, the fact that it's even used to the extent it was went beyond my expectations.

[@zackhooper5161]

Along with the actual scenes dedicated to Chadwick, the fact that he was a core theme motivation and plot point throughout the whole movie was really really nice. I'm glad they didnt just grieve his loss and then forget about him, it was how pivotal he was to the whole movie

[@Moonlight.Howlings.666]

A lot of the reactions I'm seeing describe the film as uniquely sad and sorrowful. Really sounds like even if T'Challa isn't the main character, his impact will be felt throughout and its pretty fitting for a Phase all about reflecting on character legacies or passing the torch onto the next generation. Also my boy Namor looks CLEAN with that Aztec armor. Glad they kept his diuchebaggery intact lol.

[@MaxiemumKarnage]

Did we watch the same movie as this was pretty much 3 hours of BS sandwiched between sad-bait intro and outro stuff exploiting the death of Chadwick.....? Consume product, I guess.

[@emoji3266]

I wonder how Black Panther even died though

[@AlexRodriguez0407]

@@emoji3266 if I remember correctly they said it was some terminal illness

[@TheRealGarate]

@@AlexRodriguez0407 the fact that he died means it was a terminal illness, thats what that means, but no, they don't specify, they just say an "undisclosed" illness

[@TheRealGarate]

@@MaxiemumKarnage "sad-bait" 😂 bro, the man died. You can have whatever opinion of the movie, thats fine, but he died so they had to write him out, he was a beloved character to people, so theres nothing "bait-y" about the sad intro and tribute to him, or the ending flashbacks

[@jellyguts6797]

something I absolutely loved about this movie is the backstory of Namor where he goes back to his home village and finds the Spanish enslaving his people. That hit me right in the gut. As a Latina, I know about the vicious colonization the Spanish did across Latin America, so having that as part of his story to link him closer to Wakanda's story feels so impactful as a person of colour.

[@elemperadordemexico]

Beady eyes Anglo lies

[@darryl0745]

I personally felt it pretty numb ngl. As another latino, I wanted them to delve into that for more than 30 seconds....

[@shirley444]

@@darryl0745 namor wasn’t the main lead character. He would have his own series or movie then they can dive into his backstory more

[@darryl0745]

@@shirley444 True. But he was the main antagonist. I don't think his "not the MC" status makes it better. And the marvel shows aren't all that good, sooo.......

[@shirley444]

@@darryl0745 like I said it’s not his movie….. marvel would eventually dive into and introduce him into other phase 5 projects…..

[@ronaldeliascorderocalles]

The first teaser of Wakanda Forever, the one with "No Woman No Cry" was really emotional for me. I was going through many difficult things in my life and felt really depressed. But when I heard the lyric "Everythings gonna be alright" while watching the amazing visuals of the film, I cried because it made me feel hope for the first time in a long time. I dont think any trailer has ever done that to me.

[@YouTubeExecsTouchChildren]

Holy shit touch grass

[@juliahock5549]

Yeah it made me cry too. So sad but uplifting all at once.

[@joel2749]

Are you serious? Seriously you are not joking or anything like that?

[@kingofthegeckos316]

I really liked that the events of the first movie had an actual impact and weren’t just never mentioned again. It takes them a while to figure out how to make more heart-shaped herbs, okoye’s husband was imprisoned, mbaku and ramonda hold resentment towards the council for siding with killmonger.

[@mangojam4518]

I'm surprised no one mentions that the underwater shots actually look like they were shot underwater and they probably were. Looks leagues better than the underwater scenes of aquaman

[@Naomi-xu4hq]

I think the cinematography looks better in awuaman, but it does look more realistic and clearer in black panther 2

[@LadyAstarionAncunin]

They were actually underwater. They learned to hold their breath for several minutes and learned to swim (if they didn't know) or swim stronger.

[@jamesjohnson8279]

I really liked the movie when I watched it, solid 8/10. I really like how mature and respectful they were about the passing of the legendary Chadwick Boseman, I honestly didn’t expect Marvel to be so mature about it. I felt that Shuri was a VERY well-written character, and Ramonda is such a badass to everyone, honestly my favourite character in the movie. My main issues were that, for a 2hour 41minute movie, the ending felt really abrupt and rushed for no reason, and every scene in the C subplot that featured the white American guy just felt really unnecessary and went nowhere. But apart from those flaws I thought it was really good

[@Pearlem]

The n amor scenes are embarrassingly bad

[@TT-pe1dp]

no yea i agree! the ending came hella suddenly and before i knew it the credits came in and i was like tf??? but still great movie!

[@TomatoAddict]

Yah wtf was up with the white dude subplot? Unnecessary

[@midnightrant7487]

Riri's introduction was basically to establish the next Ironman in this phase. Can't really say I'm surprised since I remember I got a bunch of articles of her years ago when she was introduced in the comics. If anything, I hope she gets a proper movie introduction and a nice welcome into the mcu... and I REALLY hope there's not too much drama because of her character... again. Edit: I literally just said I hope there's not too much drama and I already have someone claiming in the comments that Ironheart singlehandedly killed Marvel Comics. Awesome. Up to a *_great_* start.

[@joaquimgianini1234]

I mean, there’ll be drama anyway, I hope the character is actually good, and not a Mary sue

[@mangojam4518]

Not sure what future movies she will appear in, but she's getting her proper debut in her own Ironheart Disney plus show

[@giannarockefeller4832]

Here’s the full vid: that explains kzbin.info/www/bejne/lX67lmSLfKifiqs

[@MaxiemumKarnage]

Oh my fucking God.... Ironheart? You mean the character that killed Marvel comics Ironheart? R.I.P. MCU, was a... ride while it lasted. Edit: Lmao, I made such a poignant point that OP made an edit rather than trying to say I'm wrong. Kek.

[@THEKXRMANETWORK]

@@MaxiemumKarnage she killed nothing lmao she just made racists mad nothing new

[@ssolv4412]

The photography and cinematography of this movie were absolutely beautiful, it does really feel like a deeply emotional and intense movie, I really didn't though it was gonna be good, BUT OH BOY WAS I WRONG. I think the character development of the main people is so earned and well done, so proud of Marvel for really going all out on this one.

[@clownfromspongebob3979]

During my theater, when they showed the montage of Chadwick at the beginning and end, everyone was super silent. It felt right to not cheer for him, just give him respect and have a moment of silence

[@errorschnansch1892]

I live for M'Baku now, he can show up with his guys and say "u" a couple of times and I feel like it's the best part of the MCU ever

[@suezcontours6653]

Aw, get a girlfriend

[@errorschnansch1892]

@@suezcontours6653 why get a girlfriend, when you can have m'baku

[@suezcontours6653]

@@errorschnansch1892 Yep, that BBC

[@n1conicokneecaps]

totally agreed, he was literally one of my favorite characters in the entire movie

[@suezcontours6653]

@@n1conicokneecaps Then he'll die next movie. Don't get too attached bcoz Disney

[@LostSoulSilver]

I loved the part when she said "Wakanda Forever!" and started Wakanding all over the place

[@blahthebiste7924]

Normally these jokes just annoy me but something about the word "wakandaing" just got me

[@nom6758]

@@blahthebiste7924 The jokes only annoy NPCs because they realize the people making the joke aren't bots like them and have actual critical thinking skills when deciding if a movie is good rather than "See product, consume product".

[@blahthebiste7924]

@@nom6758 Um, what jokes do you THINK I'm talking about? Because none of what you said makes any sense in response to being annoyed by tired Morbin' jokes, which is what I WAS talking about

[@mayruuh]

the way she actually does this in the movie

[@KGFIQ]

for the 1st time ever, this type of comment is actually accurate to what happens in the movie!!

[@AtlasBlizzard]

Gotta give props to the writers for giving Shuri a really compelling arc of both grieving her brother as well as grappling with her own identity, when the whole movie was obviously rewritten when Chadwick Boseman died.

[@WaterMeLoan64]

The part where Namor put an end to the “Is Water Wet Debate?” by brutally murdering Dr. Doom (played by Ezra Miller) while whistling the lyrics to the SpongeBob Theme song was *CINEMA.* All joking aside, I’m glad that Black Panther: Wakanda Forever turned out to be pretty good! I’m excited for Phase 5 of the MCU & Beyond!

[@ironwraith852]

Something about this meme pisses me off to no end. I don't get why.

[@IcyDiamond]

The part where Dr. Doom got drunk and accidentally killed people in Hawaii was so good!

[@giannarockefeller4832]

Here’s the full vid: that explains kzbin.info/www/bejne/lX67lmSLfKifiqs

[@arthurvieira2104]

@@ironwraith852 same, it sounds so stupid

[@ohnobro1424]

W

[@izadarx]

The cinematography of this movie was wonderful. The scene when they first get to Talokan and the sun rises with that beautiful song in the background gave me chills. This definitely wasn’t the best movie but it was a beautiful tribute to Chadwick and I enjoyed my time watching it.

[@Shwiffle]

My favorite part was when Shuri said they were going back in time to the first thanksgiving to get Namor on the menu. That's right, they were going back in time to the first thanksgiving to get Namor on the menu.

[@azuredusk991]

Nice

[@kyarahpete9511]

I hate that I almost believed you 😭

[@Pawning]

@@kyarahpete9511 Did you seriously believe that Shuri said they were going to go back in time to the first thanksgiving to get Namor on the menu? That's right, everyone. kyarahpete9511 thought that Shuri said they were going back in time to the first thanksgiving to get Namor on the menu.

[@kyarahpete9511]

Pls, let me take my L in silence ✋🏽😭

[@Pawning]

@@kyarahpete9511 No. I won't stand for this. It's actually surprising how you thought Shuri said they were going back in time to the first thanksgiving to get Namor on the menu. That's right. I'm mad that you thought Shuri said they were going back in time to the first thanksgiving to get Namor on the menu. 👿

[@TheCronq]

Biggest problem is that shuri survived the impaling with literally no consequence, killmonger barely got stabbed and died in like 2 minutes

[@AlexRodriguez0407]

But she has the special black panther armor, nicknamed "plot armor"

[@suezcontours6653]

@@AlexRodriguez0407 Batman, Vin Diesel in Fast and Furious, John Wick have that same superpower.

[@forodinssake9570]

T'Challa said in the first movie that they could heal the wound so it wasn't a matter of plot armor i think

[@andres6v893]

@@forodinssake9570 yeah Killmonger just wanted to die there

[@Naomi-xu4hq]

We’ll kill monger got stabbed 7 years ago in the mcu pretty sure she upgraded the suit for healing just like iron man did when he got stabbed by thanos

[@Darkfirium]

Awesome tribute to Chadwick. Deserves all the respect.

[@btafbm]

Was it really tho? No Avengers at his funeral, His character deserved more of a sendoff then just a random illness that doesn't even make sense, and not that emotional I went in fully expecting to cry and I didn't even come close

[@gordoyt2011]

@@btafbm what avengers 😂they're like all gone or doing their own things

[@Markm8]

@@btafbm why didn’t he die in battle or something honestly yea it was a bad tubute😊

[@Markm8]

@@btafbm why didn’t he die in battle or something honestly yea it was a bad tubute

[@Gintoki_Freecss]

@@btafbm What I find even weirder about this is that they very easily could’ve had Black Panther die from the same thing that Chadwick Boseman died from, but nope, they decided against that for some reason.

[@nintenz8258]

Surprised you didn’t really say much about Shuri here, she was one of the standout parts of the movie in my opinion

[@suezcontours6653]

Because nerds hate black female leads. If you have nothing good to say then say nothing at all.

[@Naomi-xu4hq]

@@suezcontours6653I noticed people hated Riri Williams introduction, yet Peter Parker had the same, if not worse, introduction in civil war and everybody loved it

[@katgreer6113]

@@Naomi-xu4hq there are reasons for that. 1. Peter is a white male, not a black woman(easier for society to hate them) 2. Peter parker has been known a long time ago and been introduced SINCE and has had various adaptations for him (Tobey, Andrew) and lots of tv shows as well. In other words, peter parker was already an extremely popular character who was OBVIOUSLY not going to replace Tony Stark. A lot of ppl are upset about riri because they believe she will replace their beloved Iron Man. Peter's whole schtick is being humble, awkward, kind and brave. Nothing says that about Riri at all. EXTRA**** Think about why people love Miles Morales and not Riri. Miles has flaws, and a relatable backstory, Riri....does not.

[@fabi3790]

@@katgreer6113 1. is extremely dumb how society is now it's easier to hate white man then black woman

[@witchplease9695]

@@katgreer6113So you admit people hate Riri due to racism?

[@vietbluecoeur]

I really loved the deep exploration of grief and even a bit of struggle with spirituality in this movie. I could even relate to a number of moments, questions and feelings that I dealt with when dealing with my own personal loss. Also, adored every scene that took place in the deep sea. I have both a wild respect/love and TERROR of the ocean, and they really nailed that sense throughout this film!

[@jessicawilliams3849]

Considering Namor isn’t a full villain, it’s crazy how intimidating he is. When he made threats, you knew to be scared of him, not just the thought of his army

[@CalingsteRaynolds987]

I liked it more than the first, It was so much more fun of a watch. Maybe being Mexican and seeing a part of Latino culture being an integral part of this movie made it that much more better for myself. I connected to this movie in ways I didn’t think I would. I completely connected with Namor and his trauma and struggle, sad that it won’t be the same for others.

[@The_Jackpurgis]

@Checkmark Fellow Mexican here, I could not describe my experience with the film as well as this. Being honest, I used to not understand the cultural impact the first Black Panther had on the African-American community, but after seeing Namor, I completely understood.

[@LyntzbartzkyPerez]

Same here

[@Pearlem]

If you guys watch this movie and think it represents anything that’s relevant to current Mexican culture, you are dumb

[@LyntzbartzkyPerez]

@@Pearlem ???? It’s representing native culture

[@witchplease9695]

@@The_Jackpurgis It’s sad that you can empathize with white and latino characters but not Black ones…

[@jamesburgess2k]

It's sad that I had to say this: just the serious tone and lack of jokes itself makes this standout above every Phase 4 movie. We get that these films are supposed to be for "everybody" so adding jokes brings in the casual viewers, but sometimes people just want to watch a story that takes itself seriously. A gripping, well told story will always be better than a sloppily told story due to constantly stopping to crack a few jokes for levity. I hope we start to see the MCU as a whole slowly move away from the "action-comedy" genre and instead go back to using it more sparingly with certain directors or superheros.

[@angac.6974]

I like this movie because it feels as a way to mourn and to let it go the suffering of losing someone you love, not just for the plot but for the people who watch the movie and still feel the absence of Chadwick, therapeutic for the cast and people that worked with him and for the rest of the world that enjoyed his work. Even though, there’s a feeling inside me that want to see the original scrip or imagina what could have been the movie, even if the product we got was very great. May he rest in peace.

[@chadderbug7587]

Despite it feeling rushed and kinda weak at times, scenes like T'challa's ceremony, the Queen's death, Namor and Shuri's end fight, and the finale were fantastic. They ended phase 4 on a major bang.

[@Kris.pyfries]

!SPOILERS! . . . . . My favorite scene in the movie by far was when Shuri saw Killmonger in the ancestral realm. I thought they would find a way to slip in Chadwick in that scene but I’m so glad they didn’t. The fight between them sent chills up my spine and I was even more pissed at him since his rash actions led to T’challa’s death (within the story) and how he twisted Shuri’s fragile mindset into one of anger and destruction I really really enjoyed the movie I found it refreshing with the comedy and serious parts being clean 8/10

[@kokoro7996]

You posted this right as I got back from watching it! It definitely wasn’t perfect, but it did a great job at honouring Chadwick Boseman and finding a way to continue the Black Panther story after his death. May he rest in peace.

[@deadzone4155]

One of the biggest problems I had with the movie was the fact that the opening sequence was Wakanda leaving the U.N and isolating itself from the rest of the world, which makes the first Black Panther ending pointless, which is made worse because it's the mom doing it and thereby undoing her son’s dream of opening up to the world.

[@ShadowSonic2]

That's the point though, it's why Ramonda had to go.

[@alexusher4425]

Your review perfectly captures how I felt about this film. I really wish Shuri had been pushed as the main character from the start as she has the best character arc and character moments. I think this film would have been even stronger if it really leant into the character acting of Shuri, Ramonda, Okoye and Nakia even more because they all gave outstanding performances.

[@Nic_2751]

I’m glad they definitely treated it with a bit more respect and seriousness than anything nowadays

[@suezcontours6653]

Tell that to the ones who refuse to watch it just because its a female led movie. Goes to show you they don't care about story. They ONLY want to validate what movies they want, screw everyone else enjoying their own content.

[@Nic_2751]

@@suezcontours6653 I’m talking about the shit that was phase 4

[@missic7786]

Honestly, im surprised that this turned out as good as it is. Like its not a masterpiece or anything its like a 7/10 good movie, but considering the current standards of Marvel and the events that occurred to the main character of the Black Panther franchise, it's a miracle this movie is a 7/10

[@BrandonJames2016]

This movie was so good and I didn’t cry but there was moments that nearly got me. I loved Namor, seeing him was so awesome definitely had an intimidating presence.

[@fansee1368]

Ngl, I almost cried when the Marvel logo finally came on screen It was so depressing to see after hearing the normal intro so many times

[@themoviecritic1092]

The mid credit scene almost got me

[@BrandonJames2016]

@@themoviecritic1092 yup that was the one that nearly got me.

[@tomatosoup1304]

This has to be the only good review on KZbin which actually explains pros and cons of the film. Everyone else complains about the ‘coloniser’ line, the fact that it’s female-led (or not enough male characters which I didn’t even realise because every character is so great) or the fact that Wakanda won’t give its Vibranium when T’Challa said he would share resources (Vibranium was never mentioned and it’s literally shown that the other nations would physically fight and attack them to steal it). As usual you’re giving good, fair reviews and that’s why this is the only channel I can trust! I love how the movie handled grief with Shuri feeling the most blame and refusing to open herself up to T’Challa and other’s presences after they pass since it would feel too real for her. I also liked the detail of her taking the gold BP suit instead of the purple one since that was Killmonger’s one. I kinda wish we saw her switch to the purple one in the end but I don’t mind.

[@VNM-Venom252]

Its not flawless but it was surprisingly better than what I expected. Shuri’s arc felt earned imo, the characters felt less like jokes and actually like humans dealing with grief. Overall I think the movie was among the best alongside NWH and Shang Chi.

[@kid-ava]

the length wasn't really a problem for me with the film, it went by surprisingly fast for me. and I just really loved the whole thing for its themes of grief, colonialism, and generational trauma. I was holding back tears at the queen ramonda's death. and lupita is so goddamn effortlessly gorgeous but that's besides the point 🥰

[@Airothic05]

R.I.P Chadwick. He was a true giga Chad

[@giannarockefeller4832]

Here’s the full vid: that explains kzbin.info/www/bejne/lX67lmSLfKifiqs

[@YouTubeExecsTouchChildren]

Not really lmao, green screen warrior

[@amediumhorse]

@@KZbinExecsTouchChildren yes really

[@user-eo5sn9yt1u]

@@KZbinExecsTouchChildrenyou’re all the same

[@spaacedust]

Honestly, for phase 4 standards, it was extremely good! It’s not flawless by any means, like why didn’t shuri evacuate the citizens near water if she knew about the attack, but I’ve enjoyed every character arc and the overall story. Makes me have even a little bit of hope for the future films, even just a tiny bit

[@giorgimamalashvili4220]

Say what you want about this movie, but can we agree that Angela Bassett's acting is one of the best in the MCU?

[@averageguy7620]

No.

[@giorgimamalashvili4220]

@@averageguy7620 ok

[@thatmtgnerd]

I actually preferred this over the first black panther. Seeing the t'challa death actually have weight throughout the film and not just "oop I'm better now". And the ending was also great. Shuri wasn't just fine she has a lot to work through to become the person wakanda needs. But you know she can since she shows it throughout the film.

[@duckgaming12]

The best part of these reviews is how Shaff always tries to make a smooth transition to the squarespace part

[@syrathdouglas1244]

I’m honestly surprised you never covered G-Force, the film with secret agent Guinea pigs, a skyscraper that turns into a giant robot, evil kitchen appliances, transformers that might be better than Transformers, and a twist villain with a tragic backstory and a defeat that pulls at the heartstrings. Not to mention the absolutely awesome fireworks scene.

[@KeManYT]

The opening to the movie and the raw emotion betrayed by the actors hit me hard

[@lenixad0094]

I’m so glad phase 4 ended in a high note. As an avid MCU fan, it was very disheartening seen peoples’s reception of most of this phase’s output. I know they’re far from perfect, but I still found enjoyment and appreciate the risk the studio took

[@ohnobro1424]

Same

[@spaacedust]

Same with me. I still love the mcu after endgame despite its messy phase and will continue to follow them. I’m really glad this movie has received a lot of love by everyone, something that reminded me of phases 1-3

[@YouTubeExecsTouchChildren]

Good capeshit consumer, consumer it all

[@ohnobro1424]

@@KZbinExecsTouchChildren don’t you have better things to do?

[@potheadjeebus8156]

You said early on that Namor felt too much like killmonger, but I think that was kinda the point. Before the climax, it’s clear that Shuri, Namor, and Killmonger all had the same motivations: vengeance. I think it was an excellent choice to make Namor and Shuri reflect a lot of what killmongers character is.

[@splinkydinky5398]

watched it today, great movie, made me tear up a few times throughout, glad Shuri wasn't just a goody two shoes

[@suezcontours6653]

Why do beta males feel it to be an inconvenience to her character when Peter Parker is a goody two shoes? Like you think All American high school boys are the only virtuous ones. Shuri is African, they are quite complex, I am just glad she didn't have to save another white boy to prove she's one of the "good ones". People actually missed that joke in the first movie "another white boy for me to save" was a dig at the magical negro trope.

[@splinkydinky5398]

@@suezcontours6653 huh, bro what has you so pressed over this like damn, peter and shuri are two different characters so they both don't have to have the same personality, and when did I say she wasn't one of the good ones? like bro you good?

[@splinkydinky5398]

@@suezcontours6653 And to double down, Peter parker isn't an all good guy, when may died he literally almost killed the green goblin, just like when Shuri's mother died, she almost killed Namor, I think you here, are the beta male/female/person (not to assume since obviously that would offend you) for getting pressed over me complimenting this movie, good day and good night sir/ma'am/person

[@firenze6478]

My problem is that wakanda’s better than thou attitude towards other countries. Constantly belittling other countries as savages, calling them colonizers like wakanda didn’t fight for its territory and claiming other countries would misuse vibranium when they literally ignore other countries laws all the time. Remember in falcon series wakanda has jurisdiction wherever wakanda goes. They are displayed as complete narcissists.

[@spider-turtle481]

I really loved this movie, and me also being of Mayan descent, I really liked the representation of my heritage.

[@LegendsP137]

Broke down after watching Wakanda Forever. Just a few months ago I lost my own cousin in very sudden death too. So a whole movie about loss, death, and what gierf does to a person was so powerful. It stopped being a movie it started being a conversation. I only saw art. True art. 10/ 10

[@SsNoir]

I think we should hand this film a bit more credit for being as good as it is all things considered. We can’t forget that this movie was written AFTER BP2 had already been storyboarded and subsequently WRITTEN in it’s ENTIRETY before Chadwick’s tragic passing. This probably lead to some disappointing gaps in writing and plot due to the intense scramble it must have been for the producers and BP team on top of the shock of Chadwick’s passing. They probably tried to string together potent plot devices from the first script, but at the end went for some safer options in the end leaving us a powerful movie, with just a little more to be desired. As well as some narrative paths feeling underdeveloped to an extent

[@MajoraZ]

Not sure if people will care, but as somebody who works with History and Archeology channels on Mesoamerican (Aztec, Maya, etc) topics, I wanted to dissect some of the influences in the film (would also be down to work with Schaffrillas on something for El Dorado, Onyx Equinox, Maya and the Three, etc on that note): There's both a lot of cool details, a lot of things I think could have been done better, and a good amount i'm critical of. Firstly, Talokan is named after Tlalocan, one of the afterlifes in Aztec religion, namely the one reserved for people who died of drowning and a few other specific deaths, and was the realm of the Rain and storm god Tlaloc: Tlalocan was a lush garden paradise filled with plants, flowers, trees, streams, rivers, fountains, lakes, and pools (and in turn, many Mesoamerican cities and royal estates had large botanical gardens and complex aqueduct, plumbing, and resevoir networks, some of them even being designed to emulate the notion of a Tlalocan afterlife: Look up Huaxtepec or Texcotzinco, Mexicolore has a good article on this) However, there's actually a broader trend of the underworld and afterlife's being linked to water across Mesoamerica beyond the specific Tlalocan afterlife (just one of many) in Aztec mythology, and it is THIS I think where Talokan is mostly pulling from: While the main Aztec and Maya underworlds, Mictlan and Xibalba, aren't described in their entirety as being underwater, things like caverns, springs, pools of water (as well as mirrors) WERE viewed as underworld entrances and connected to those realms, and at Teotihuacan, a pre-Aztec metropolis that they took major cultural influences from, there are man-made caves and tunnels running beneath major temples modeled after watery underworlds. The film is pretty clearly drawing from this: The entrance to the underwater cavern outside of Talokan itself that Shuri was being held in is entered via a pool, which is in front of a sculpture which is a combination of a Cave Monster (most often seen in Epi-Olmec and Maya art, but also other Mesoamerican cultures, it's mouth representing the underworld) and Chaac (The Maya rain god, an analog to Tlaloc, though there's actually some debate on if the Chaac sculptures this one is based on, found on buildings in Maya sites using the Puuc architectural style, are actually Chaac or not). That area Shuri was held in is also clearly based on Cenotes, large sinkholes and caverns filled with water which were important sites to the Maya and tie into the aformentioned cave, pool, water, underworld etc stuff. The next biggest and most obvious point of symbolism involves Namor being called Kukulkan, the Yucatec Maya (also the language spoken in the film) name for the Feathered Serpent diety: This is a very widespread archetypical god shared by many Mesoamerican civilizations (in the same way that the Aztec Tlaloc, Maya Chaac, Zapotec Cocijo, etc are all versions of the same rain diety), other versions being the Kiche Maya Gucumatz or the Aztec Quetzalcoatl, Teotihuacan's Proto-Quetzalcoatl, the Olmec Avian-Serpent, etc. Broadly speaking, Feathered Serpent gods tend to have ties to rulership and priesthood (the Olmec Avian serpent is seen with rulers, In Aztec chronicles of the prior legendary Toltec civilization, the Toltec official Ce Acatl Topiltzin is heavily tied to Quetzalcoatl, etc), which is a good fit here as Namor as a god-king in Talokan. Additionally, the serpent half links the deity to the ground and mortal realm, while the feathered aspect to the sky and divine. Feathered Serpents so often represent both the boundary and crossing between these realms: Olmec Avian serpents are often depicted in urban thresholds between spaces, Quetzalcoatl in Aztec mythology travels to Mictlan to revive humanity, etc. This also ties into Namor's ability to move between both Talokan and the surface world. I originally wasn't sure if this was intended, but staff on the film implied it was! There was also loads of Conch imageru: Namor gives Ramonda a Conch shell to contact him, we see him using a bisected conch shell as a paint pallete (which was also done historically in Mesoamerica), some of his gold necklaces use gold beads in the shape of conches, and some of the neck embroidry on one of the Talokanil outfits Shuri gets has conches: these aren't just a reference to Talokan being underwater: Conches are play an important role in Mesoamerican iconography and culture, being used to generate music, sound and signals for ceremonies and in war, they were engraved or sculpted into ceremonial art and jewlery, and most importantly here, are heavily associated with the Aztec Feathered Serpent god Quetzalcoatl: Quetzalcoatl was a god of learning, the arts, priesthoods, speech, poetry, etc; and the wind as his aspect Ehecatl. He often wears a spiral conch shell cross section as a pendant, the "Wind Jewel", since conches produced both air and sound. In fact, speech, music, etc is often shown in Mesoamerican art as spiral gusts of air coming from one's mouth or objects, further tying these together, to the spiral shape of the Conch, and also to things like waves of water, the winding shape of a serpent, and the famous Mesoamerican step fret motif (which is what those spiral/meander patterns pop media slaps onto Mesoamerican things are trying to evoke) So, seems pretty good so far! But even if it WORKS, I have some misgivings with tying Namor to Kukulkan. Firstly, it seems weird to me to tie him to a Feathered Serpent god, the Yucatec Maya one, at that, and then name his kingdom after Tlalocan, especially given how the movie mentions Chaac in other contexts. I think going with Chaac or Tlaloc for who he is titled after may have worked better, especially also because such Rain gods all descend from Olmec Were-Jaguar sculptures (with the thick eyebrows and snarled mouth of those sculptures becoming the signature "Goggles" and "fangs" that Tlaloc, Chaac, etc have), so they could have gone for a Jaguar vs Panther theme. Admittedly, though, then you lose out on some of the symbolism Namor has with the dualist nature of Feathered Serpents. Blending Yucatec Maya and Aztec elements is also potentially questionable, though I personally don't mind it. Namor being associated with a god at all may also evoke the "Mesoamericans mistook people as gods" misconception/myth: I think the reference here is to Mesoamerican figures like Ce Acatl Topiltzin, rather then to the Spanish being misaken as gods, but I personally would have liked to see an explicit statement that the Talokanil know he is not a deity, and it's just a title. Nitpicks aside, my actual, serious criticisms are next: There is a lot of things that frame the Talokanil as primitive, in a way that both misrepresents Mesoamerican civilizations and society (and plays into existing widespread misconceptions), and doesn't work in the context of the film. The warriors are all basically naked, or with Namora and Attuma, wear very unsophisticated looking attire of bones, scrapped together looking sea-leather and sinew, and "feathers"/fish scales, with random jade plaques randomly strapped to to that. They use tortoise shells as shields, they use animals for transportation rather then any sort of vehicles. About half of the clothes we see Talokanil people wear look biege, dirty, and not well made, and Talokan itself seemingly only has one large painted structure, the rest seem to be run down concrete frames (evocative of sealab structures without glass) and kelp farms. I think the latter stuff and the use of animals might be trying to suggest their society is more like based around biological engineeering then machinery, but I don't think it works, and the soldier attire especially is clearly trying to be "Tribal". Even Namor's personal room in the Cenote, with gorgous painted murals, ornaments, decorations, that look REALLY well done and researched (based on depictions of Sacred Ceiba trees, Teotihuacano murals, real codex style pottery and ceramics, etc) is in a tiny hut that looks dingy from the outside. This is sadly pretty common in Mesoamerican media, but is very misrepresentative: Mesoamerican cities like Tenochtitlan, Teotihuacan, Tikal, etc had many tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of denizens, and covered huge physical expanses: these were absolutely giant cities that matched some of the largest (though not THE absolute largest) in Europe at the same time. You had hundreds of huge temples, palaces, plazas, ball courts, and other structures which were richly painted and covered in sculptures and reliefs. Clothing, especially for nobles, was colorful and finely made, with rich patterns and motifs, finely made jewelry, etc. Warriors, again, especially high statusd ones, wore actual armor, with royal and elite military uniforms and garbs having fine stone and gem and metal inlays, etc. These were societies with courts, judges, diplomats, poets, merchants, scribes, etc. The fact that HISTORICAL Mesoamerican societies had more complex cities and finer clothing and more actual armor is not great, especially when Talokan is intended to be this hyper advanced society on par with Wakanda. Like, Wakanda still uses spears, which is silly, but at least they have skyscrapers, futuristic vehicles and spy suits, etc. However, all that said, the Talokanil are still shown as empathic human beings, not just as violent savages (unlike, say, in Apocalypto, or Lizardmen, etc), and even if not ALL of their clothing or infrastructure was bad: It's actually a pretty even mix (the warrior stuff aside) of negative and postive for the random Talokanil people (many women have colorful huipil blouses that look nice), and I have some real praise for some of the other outfits i'll describe below in a follow up comment, alongside some constructive criticism and other points of praise I couldn't segue into before. CONTINUED IN A REPLY BELOW:

[@MajoraZ]

CONTINUED FROM THE ABOVE: For starters, Talokanil piercings are consistently authentic and well done: Namor, Namora, and Attuma's earrings and nose/lip plugs are all taken more or less 1:1 from actual historical royal maya examples: Compare Namor's jade earrings to the earings from the death mask of Pacal the Great of Palenque, or Namora's from the death mask of The Red Queen. The outfit Shuri is given by Namor, the one with the many strings of Jade and red shell beads, was also amazing: The use of Jade plaques and beads there was extremely well done, and the contrast between that and the jade plaques on Namora and Attuma's war outfits is so huge. The red shell beads here are Spondylus, the shell of a Bivalve highly prized in both Mesoamerica and down in the Andes (the Inca, Nazca, etc), and historically the two regions had naval trade linking West Mexico to Ecuador (though to what extent is debated), in part spurred by Spondylus. In general, that outfit is what I WISH most Talokanil outfits were: It's a mix of traditional, accurate Mesoamerican ornamentation with a more modern, almost high-fashion/designer aspects with the underlying dress. Namora's more ceremonial outfit in the scene where Namor declares war is similarly good (though the geometric motifs on it are a bit generic). Attuma's ceremonial Tilmatli cloak and loincloth and such he has in the war declaration scene is alright: It looks sort of roughly made, but it's all at least in the right shape and colorful, and I dig the featherwork ornament strapped to the Tilma and the jade bead ankle braclets, and the Jaguar ones above them, pretty close to some actual Maya examples. Namor's jewlery and clothing ranges from pretty great to eh: I like the golden bead (again with the conches) and pearl necklaces he's often shown with: It's not like a super 1:1 match to Mesoamerican examples, but it's close enough (even if pearl wasn't used in art much). The Golden necklace he has with multiple hanging pearls, in the scene where he first meets Shuri in the Cenote in his painted room, is almost a 1:1 identical match to a specific gold Aztec necklace, where each golden piece is shaped like a Jaguar tooth: The only difference is the added hanging pearls here. I also dig the hooked nose Maya (Chaac?) golden armlets he has in that scene, very close to Maya art, and the white cloak/Tilmatli with the red trim is VERY close to actual Aztec examples, though a royal would have a blue geometric one with red or rainbow trims (Sadly his white/black wool looking tilmatli just has random googled "Aztec patterns" that aren't actually Mesoamerican). I think the pauldrons and braclets in that scene look a little Southeast Asian here rather then Mesoamerican, the Maya style engravings aside, but it looks cool. Same for his golden and blue serpent pectoral: Pectorals are one of those things that media tends to overuse and misuse in Mesoamerican themed things (In the same way media might slap turbans on Middle Eastern things regardless of context), but I'll accept it as a MCU-ified attempt at one, same for the gold arm and leglets he wears with it. I do wish the blue stones the serpents were carved from were Turquiose mosiac though: That was how Mesoamerican art made fancy blue things out of stone, not solid sculptured blue gemstone.... I CANNOT give his helmet/headdress a pass, though: I assume the helmet is based on the animal themed helmets worn by elite Aztec soldiers with Tlahuiztli warsuits, but it is so big and bulky here and the headdress, another thing media tends to misuse, might be one of the worst ones I've seen. The helmet should be simplified (but still fancy looking, just not as bulky), and rather then a headdress, it should have been a long tassel/plume/"ponytail" of green and multicolor "feathers"/fish scales coming out the back, like the Quetzallalpiloni tassels attached to the back of some Aztec warsuit helmets. Anyways, let's shift back to the whole primitivism/technology/infanstructure thing, and give some constructive suggestions: Again, the murals, decorations, ceramics, and other things INSIDE Namor's room in the Cenote was all excellent. There should have been way more of that. Way more of Talokan should have been like the big painted red building in the middle, and I would have liked to have seen more explicit Mesoamerican architectural motifs and designs. I do think the almost Art Deco look of that central structure is interesting, and there are some "Maya revival style" Art deco structures in real life, so maybe having that theme for the whole city would be neat. But I def want, like, actual complex infanstructure, glowing lights on buildings, multistory structures, maybe underwater tube things, etc. It should look as complex as Wakanda. As far as other technology: Even if the implementation was iffy, the IDEA of using fish scales in place of the feathers on Mesoamerican things is neat. I know more about Aztec armor then I do Postclassic Yucatec Maya military equipment, but you could easily turn the Tlahuiztli and Ehuatl warsuits and tunics (which were covered in tens of thousands of iridesecent feathers, arranged by color to indicate rank and unit position) used by high ranking Aztec soldiers into full body sci-fi suits that use iridesecent fish scales instead. Maybe the jaws of the animal themed helmets actually form a visor like a science fiction helmet and that's what's fulled with water rather then just a rebreather. Again, this is a very Aztec centric idea when I know Talokan is more Postclassic Yucatec Maya, but maybe their weapons could use like a liquid, flowing plasma or underwater flames: The dualism of fire and water represents warfare in Aztec iconography, and would give them advanced energy weapons. Maybe Atlatl (a projectile weapon that cradles a dart and acts as a lever to multiply your throwing power to launch the projectile) that fires plasma bolts, etc. Some Maya gladiatorial boxers also used conch shells as boxing gloves/gauntlets, having like cybernetic versions of that as weapons might be cool, too, would tie into this aquatic theme. (There';s also some murals at Bonampak which shows lobster themed ritual outfits which could make cool armor). Also, since the whole "Talokanil soldiers getting back up after being mortally wounded" thing never went anywhere, unless I missed it, maybe that could be explained and tie into the Talokanil having advanced technology to transfer/store life forces from one person to another: This could represent sacrifice (which was less about death, and more about feeding the gods and cosmos to allow the continued prosperity of life) and could also tie into Shuri's moral dilemma of letting go of the past or not: Maybe she could be given a choice of letting go of the past or not: Maybe she could be given a choice to actually sacrifice the scientist girl to bring T'chalia or her mother back. Finally, just to loop back to some other cool references to Mesoamerican things I couldn't naturally segue into before: I dig how when Namor's mother was buried, she's wrapped in a mortuary bundle and a bead is placed in the mouth, which is a real Mesoamerican burial practice. Namor's actions in the film may also tie into the real way Mesoamerican politics and diplomacy worked: Kingdoms and empires rarely directly governed their subjects, and as a result, subject states often kept their own political ambitions and interests, and would often ally with one another to then turn on their capitals or take out their political rivals, and inviting rulers and diplomats of other cities into your own to flaunt it's grandeur was a way to court for alliances and political marriages, similar to what Namor does with Shuri. The Talokanil salute, beyond representing shark jaws or heralding the sun (which is IIRC what is said it's based on in interviews), may also be a reference to poses found in many surviving Mesoamerican manuscripts and books, which likewise shows people with vertical hands facing open on top one another, the same pose also see in some Maya sculptures and other examples of Mesoamerican art, though I admit i'm not informed of the symbolism behind tt, and again, interviews don't say it was the origin, so it may be a coincidence. Sharks do, however, also play a major role in Maya culture, with shark teeth being engraved and used in art, in tools, or for ritual bloodletting, and sharks also being depicted in Maya art. There's a great Ars Technica article about some studies on this. We can see some engravings on the giant Shark jaw in the center of Talocan too, which are very close to Maya engravings found on Conch shells at some Mesoamerican sites, too. Finally, i'm fairly sure Namor's flying is based on how Hummingbirds fly, with a similar darting and zig-zag motion, and the wings moving so fast they become a blur: Hummingbirds are a key part of the culture of many Prehispanic cultures (not just Mesoamerican ones, but down in the Andes such as by the Moche, Inca, etc as well), where they are associated with warfare and warriors: Huitzilopochtli is the patron god of the Mexica of the Aztec captial, for example, and is a war diety and is heavily tied to hummingbirds. Hummingbird feathers are also heavily used in art, where their iridesecence, like the feathers of Quetzals and some other birds, was highly prized: Aztec warsuits, shields, helmets, etc were covered in tens of thousands of feathers, arranged by color to make different patterns indicating rank and unit division, and the Aztec/Nahuatl word for war attire, Tlahuiztli, means "To glitter", from the glimmering iridesence of the feathers. There's even some cathloc "paintings" made of feathers by Aztec artists during the early colional period, and these are really cool and I highly suggest looking them up!

[@Naomi-xu4hq]

@@MajoraZthere’s no way you all read those whole texts

[@lowqualityvideos3457]

I ain't readin allat

[@EfrLuviano]

I'm Mexican and live in the Yucatan peninsula, where the mayans lived and hearing the name Ku'Kulcan after hearing it for years in school was honestly epic

[@soupiaaa]

Spoilers: I hate that the smart girl seemed like to was going to be a huge plot point and then she didn’t really do anything but it did also feel very boring at some times

[@AlexLopez-xb3yn]

Wakanda Forever is probably my favorite Phase 4 movie tied with No Way Home. Definitely an amazing tribute to Chadwick Boseman and the performances are top notch. Yeah it can be long with it’s runtime but I definitely had a great time. Amazing video King 👑

[@georgeandfriendsadventures5073]

No Way Home beats it for me, but Wakanda Forever is still a VERY CLOSE second

[@suezcontours6653]

@@georgeandfriendsadventures5073 Not really. Browntable is a Spiderman fanboy and had to admit this was superior. NWH suffered from massive plotholes and unfinished CGI.

[@georgeandfriendsadventures5073]

@@suezcontours6653 What unfinished CGI? What plotholes?

[@suezcontours6653]

@@georgeandfriendsadventures5073 LOL.

[@enderlovesbagels101]

I actually preferred this film to the first. I wasn't sure about having Shuri as the main character going in, but I was blown away. I have countless positive thoughts about this film, but I can sum it up by saying this is by far the best Marvel product since No Way Home

[@suezcontours6653]

Why is it so difficult for people to admit that. They nitpick. To me this is Terminator 2 to the first Terminator but the second wouldn't exist without the first.

[@thetotaldramaking5427]

I personally liked it, sure it has its flaws, what film doesn’t, but based on everything that happened it’s very good.

[@Rmoney213]

I don't know why I did this, but if you REALLY want to skip to the credits, use the timestamp provided (it also skips the sponsor): 8:31

[@KeebeThePlush]

Not a supreme watcher but I’m think I’m gonna be seeing it a lot more and the strange world review will be interesting

[@AnimatedCriticStudios]

Strange world will be in the Disney rankint

[@drkim4077]

Wakanda forever was amazing. Each character’s journey and suspense kept me on the edge of my seat. The actors were phenomenal and we couldn’t have asked for a better tribute to Chadwick

[@superadambomb5834]

I love how to third act of the film explores the idea of how dangerous someone can be when they have nothing to lose. It was sort of explored in no way home but here they really go with it. Shuri not caring anymore about “what they would’ve wanted” is a really interesting way to continue her character arc.

[@zacharygate9842]

I honestly cried during Angela Bassett's speech about her family.

[@WilliamSGe1228]

I agree with James, this is definitely the best possible sequel we could’ve gotten without Chadwick R.I.P.

[@realbigflopa]

the campfire scene at the end of the movie was one of the most powerful scenes even though it had no words

[@suezcontours6653]

Do people forget that these are veteran actors who went to acting school?

[@juliarusiecka2913]

I watched "The Menu" instead of Wakanda Forever today and I really recommend it for you to review it. Its really fun and making a video about it would be soo good!!!

[@suezcontours6653]

The Menu won't make money if you're trying to avoid Wakanda Forever, that's on you.

[@Teag_Brohman15]

Kukulkan was really the most interesting character in the whole movie and I would love to see more of him in the MCU

[@ricekrispyknees5693]

I went into this movie expecting to be sad, but it freaking broke me. I'm not a big crier when it comes to movies, but I was literally bawling from the first scene. My mom had cancer when I was nine(she's okay now), and I lost my aunt to surgery complications a few years ago. I'm also a similar age to Shuri, and the way that they presented the grief and desperation and loss encapsulated my experience with almost losing my mom so much that I just was full on sobbing pretty much the entire movie. Especially the end credit scene with the child character that was introduced, I just could not stop seeing myself as that little kid, and it was like being thrown back to that point in my life. I saw it with a group of friends, and while everyone was teary eyed, my friend who has a similar background to me was also full on sobbing.

[@superwatto941]

It's really great I liked it alot. Probably my favorite marvel movie since Endgame. I didn't find it boring or slow paced it went by quickly in the best way possible and I felt it respected Chadwick really well.

[@YelirNitram]

Saw it earlier this evening and thought it was pretty great, especially when it came to the mourning of Chadwick’s passing

[@suezcontours6653]

And I can't wat to see it without the T'Chala parts. Wakanda is about the people.

[@Rembreiker_lychec9257]

Im glad they aren’t emphasizing comedy. This movie more than any other recent MCU film feels like it genuinely NEEDED to be serious.

[@r-171]

I honestly loved the Film so much, quite the amazing send-off to Chadwick.

[@suezcontours6653]

It's better than Now Way Home, Browntable confirmed it.

[@maxmocs5008]

I personally thought Wakanda Forever was a good movie, and a really good note for Phase 4 to end on. However, I will say that parts of the movie did leave me feeling conflicted. The war between Wakanda and Talokan, if you think about it, is really quite tragic, because both sides have the same motivation, and would both greatly benefit as alleys. Yet, the fights are all played off as good vs. evil, despite how complex of a villain/anti-hero Namor is. As a result we don't know what we're supposed to feel from these fights. Someone I know described them as being messed up. And this is why a lot of reviewers have passed the film off as a mess. Had this film devoted some of it's time to fleshing other characters from Talokan instead of just Nemor, and then played the fights like those in Captain America: Civil War, that is, as impersonal-turned-personal conflicts causing characters to act their worst, I think the film would have been great.

[@raphaeldagamer]

The only reason there were so many scenes with Everett Ross is because they need to remind us that Val is meant to be the big baddie that they're setting up for MCU phase four. The fact that they need to remind us of her existence with major scenes that take away from the story and add runtime to the film just goes to show that she lacks the threatening presence and menace that Thanos had, and we knew he was coming for the first three phases. Don't get me wrong, he did make appearances, but very seldom was he in a full scene, or in full view, and his appearances never sidelined the plot. We didn't need much information to go off of, and the movies didn't take time to explain to us every little step in his plan, because each step was integrated into a movie so seamlessly that the movies themselves are the individual steps.

[@ShadowSonic2]

Actually, Val's presence in this movie was to make it clear that Wakanda wasn't wrong to be suspicious of the Outside World. Especially the USA

[@raphaeldagamer]

@@ShadowSonic2 good point

[@StrawberrySkyyy]

Shaf thank you for posting, whenever I watch your videos I feel better. I especially needed it today after my dog just passed away. I’m not entirely sure why your videos put me in a good mood, they just do. Thank you. ❤

[@nnamdiede1180]

I disagree with everyone about Everett Ross being unnecessary because he was our window into how other countries are reacting to what’s going on in Wakanda. Also I disagree, Shuri was most definitely the main character throughout the whole movie, yes Riri was important to the plot, but it was more in title than appearance, once she gets caught by Namor she’s kinda just there for the ride so I never felt that Shuri was sidelined for her.

[@suezcontours6653]

No, he was there for the Conservative white audiences who can't watch a movie without a white POV character to feel included. It's been happening since the beginning of Hollywood. They created a fake POV white character played by James McAvoy for Idi Amins' biopic... he never existed in real life.

[@nnamdiede1180]

@@suezcontours6653 Lol okay…

[@Theunloved1738]

A complaint I heard from some people os that they don’t like how Shuri has never had any interest to the black panther mantle but I think that’s the tragedy of shuri. Being forced into a position that she never wanted but ultimately knowing that there’s no other choice, that whether she likes it or not she is the sole protector of wakanda. I mean how would you react to being a part of a royal family and having your father, your brother, and your mother, basically your whole family dying and having to face that kind of task.

[@moccamane2402]

8/10 for me. Love namor. The emotional journey for shuri was great even leading her to be the next BP. Excellent acting especially queen mother. Cons tho: I would have less ross, more mbaku and shuri making a connection, and ,in my opinion, replace riri. I felt she didn't add much to the movie to justify her being in here. She felt more of a plot device than a character. I would of replace her with a young storm to finally bring mutants to the mcu outside of Mrs marvel's recon. Then the end credit could have prof x and start off phase 5 with a bang. Overall sucks not to have Chadwick with us but good movie would recommend.

[@Stanos_1]

I think I am one of the very few people who actually thoroughly enjoyed Phase 4, and I feel like this was the perfect way to close out a chapter of the MCU dedicated to legacies and grief

[@Chia13579]

I think this was a perfect review of the movie! I also gave it a 7/10 for exactly the same reasons! It felt like an organic transition from T’challas death to Shuri taking up the mantle of the Black Panther. (And especially with Chadwick Boseman’s death which was so unexpected, they did well with what they had) And yes out of Phase 4 movies after Spider-Man NWH this has been one of the best movies

[@virgogaming6488]

I agree, it feels so earned by the time she puts on the suit. That's how you build character.

[@derpymule7977]

I really loved this movie, but the one bit that disappointed me was (SPOILERS FOR THE END OF THE MOVIE) when they set up the idea of Shuri being an actually morally grey MCU protagonist, where she isn’t the perfect, truly “good” hero and doesn’t pretend to be, then just concluded her arc in the standard MCU fashion. I think in context it did make the most sense for her not to kill Namor, and I don’t hate that that’s how it went, it’s still a touching ending, but it did feel like a missed opportunity. If she kills him, her character has all sorts of potential paths to go down, into self-hatred, megalomania, or even just giving up, which are all character arcs I love to see explored in fiction, though perhaps it might be a little too mature for the MCU.

[@sophiatalksmusic3588]

I liked Namor a lot. He was similar to Killmonger in that he wanted Wakanda's help with revenge against colonizing powers, but I feel how colonization impacted each character was different. Both suffered as a consequence of it, but Namor saw its beginnings in Mesoamerica and directly witnessed things like slavery and mass death, while Killmonger's trauma is a result of the aftermath of generations of it. It makes sense for what their objective goals are- Killmonger is fighting to obtain a future that he wants, while Namor, who rules over a kingdom where his people have been safe for a long time from the threat of colonialism, is fighting to preserve the present that he has. This contrasts both with Wakanda, which has never known colonialism, but has the weapons and technology to potentially prevent it or even colonize other regions. What made Namor really stand out to me was how we see him interact with his people and how much he cares for them; watching the fight scenes was pretty stressful because both sides were pitted against each other by the United States and western Europe, and only wanted to protect themselves.

[@Stock_Junction]

What's weird is that personally, I felt like the white agent guy from the Cornetto Trilogy got less screentime than other wise. Despite his numerous appearences, they gave him little to do. It seemed like he was gonna help Wakanda, but got brushed away by being arrested for being caught in 4K. Either give him more time or remove alot of scenes of him from the film because he was heavily wasted. Also Ironheart didn't get much to do, kind of felt like America Chaves from Stange 2. She was fun for the time she had, but keywords: "time she had"

[@suezcontours6653]

He's a CIA agent, they don't help foreign countries. Besides, he overstayed his welcome in the first movie. He's the white audience surrogate, there's no need for him to be in this movie at all.

[@misteried]

I love how he's able to make a new into for every squarspace promo

[@lucabalsasalsa]

I think this movie hit more to the core because it’s actually about someone, and alludes to him so much. It makes the grief so real

[@bigboris1094]

My favourite phase 4 movie I loved it so much

[@RuleroftheSandcastle]

Not exactly a high bar, to be fair.

[@grape_nation]

Easy considering the movies and shows ranged from mediocre to garbage. Spider-Man being the only exception