bonnie prince charlie

Music Video Bonnie Prince Charlie

[@Aolian]

I'm English but my name is McKay and my heart will always be with the Clan.

[@MadMonarchist]

Scotland forever! May the Stuart kings rest forever in the embrace of God.

[@rickdavis6514]

Some steuarts still live. Remember the rest of the prfecy of Pete and when this horrible time rises on the highlands the true kings and lords of Scotland shall rest for awhile just acroos the water and when once again they return and the 13 are summoned again Scotland shall at last have freedom.

[@KaelVidos20]

@@rickdavis6514 House of Wittelsbach of bavaria are female descent of stuart in spain House of Fitz-James Stuart the duke of alba are the male descendents of illegitimate son of King James II

[@marypetrie930]

Divine rule nonsense!

[@KaiColloquoun-gt7kw]

The Stuarts sold Scotland's independence. Charles Edward Stuart was not fighting for Scotland, he was fighting to put his father on the British throne. He was more Polish than Scottish. The Highlanders from Scotland & large swathes of English people, mostly from Lancashire & Yorkshire, backing him were Episcopalians or Roman Catholics who wanted to reverse the Reformation in Scotland & England.

[@gaconnochie]

@oarfrost Plus back in Scotland the Jacobite govt had ceased to exist as soon as the army wasn't there to enforce it. The prince's army was only as far as Dalkeith when Edinburgh was back in Hanovarian hands - and Edinburgh Castle itself had never been in Jacobite hands even when Charles was ensconced in Holyrood Palace. The prize in his eyes was the throne in London.

[@tormodfraser3664]

The song is Bonny Portmore by Loreena Mckennitt.

[@oarfrost]

@voodoobaby405 Well, there is no doubt that he was cocky enough. But his real problem was that he was too lucky too early. At both Prestonpans and Falkirk the government armies broke and ran so Charlie got the idea that his lads were invincible. Then at Culloden he encountered Cumberland's first eleven and the result was extremely messy.

[@settlebrrd]

ah yes but the mad krauts got it good at yorktown.

[@ZeitgeistWI]

Yes, my heritage includes cattle theives but not traitors and as not murderers. That would be more in line with the Campbells you mentioned earlier. Does Glencoe ring a bell? My people were Earls of Lennox until they were displaced and a clan until the last chief came to America. I know my ancestry and my lineage just fine. And I never said I was above "native Scots", I said we all should just stop quarrelling and pull together. You have me all wrong.

[@SuperCulloden]

A Scot, forever a Scot, while you will always be, A wee, sleekit, cowrin, tim'rous, north Britain beastie. Yet even more from Rabbie.. Here Stuarts once in glory reign'd And Laws for Scotland's weal ordained But now unroofed their palace stands Their scepter's sway'd by other hands; the injured Stuart line is gone, A race outlandish fills their throne; An idiot race, to honour lost; Who know them best, despise them most.

[@chica476]

The True King of the Gaels. The only troll worthy royalty was the English being ruled by the French (House of Normandy) or the Tudors (Welsh). Heeheehee.

[@CharlesJenkins-be2cv]

The house of Normandy wasn’t French you fool. The answer to where the house came from is in its name “Normandy” which originates from Scandinavia-more specifically Norway. The Norman’s merely spoke French, otherwise they were no different from Vikings. Normandy was a Dutch of France and to summarise how ludicrous your point is, the national of France had disputes with Normandy because they believed the French were entitled to England.

[@ThePoorhillbilly]

@oarfrost I think The Jacobites could have defeated Cumberlands army in England, and then progressed onto London with very few casualties, thats what Charles wanted to do. It was the extra 4 scottish battalions and trainng at Aberdeen that made the difference at Culloden for the government forces. The Jacobites defeat is one of the most dodgy shams in Scottish History, basically all down to the fault of the arrogant clan cheifs who drafted men onto the battlefield against their will

[@mullofoban]

Bonnie Prince Charlie may have ended up a drunken sot but this man arrived in Scotland with no money and no army - yet came within a whisper of dethroning the Hanoverians. Yes, undoubtedly a flawed human but his tragedy embodies all that is glorious and pitifull in human endeavour. Excellent song and video.

[@KaiColloquoun-gt7kw]

Reaching Derby is hardly coming "within a whisper"

[@McroyOfficial100]

Long live the stuarts 💜

[@Gillian1746]

The film is called 'Bonnie Prince Charlie' and it was made in 1948 starring David Niven and Jack Hawkins.

[@Ggdivhjkjl]

Thank you!

[@patriciajrs46]

Agreed. Thanks.

[@BillDFC]

God bless Scotland and the House of Stuart.

[@patriciajrs46]

Amen!!

[@alextripney3812]

God Bless my friend.🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[@matrix8930]

For Scotland and Prince Charlie.

[@JustaScotsman]

Just returned from a visit to Culloden today............the valour and courage of the brave Clansmen who met their fate that day with honour and dignity will NEVER be forgotten........nor will the brutality and rape of the Highlands by the British army for years afterwards.!

[@patriciajrs46]

I love the series Outlander, and Highlander was one of my all time favorites.

[@Radagast-eh5sc]

🇨🇵❤️🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿...🙋.

[@clairewest2015]

Anyone else hear the bagpipes yesterday? The spirit of Scotland can never be broken

[@alextripney3812]

Hi Claire and they never will.🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[@TMMQUINN2011]

Wonderfully romantic tale of highland clans rallying to their former kings grandson and their gallant fight against a traditional foe. Niven whose father was a scot and mother french is the perfect young Prince, inspiring hope, loyalty and dreamt triumph. In reality never had a hope of succeeding, but it was in the scots character to try!.

[@BlackasVelvet]

A beautiful haunting song that goes straight to the heart .

[@raulmundoalvaresrivaz769]

Bonny Portmore (Loreena McKennitt) Great for me too...

[@jockstewartredmond1093]

ENTIRE FILM ON SATURDAY ON TV 2PM I HAVE THE RARE VIDEO OF IT FOUND AT A GARAGE SALE IN TEXAS

[@Duncansbroadsword]

The name of the film is Bonnie Prince Charlie starring David Niven you can buy it on ebay thats where i got mine.

[@earlofmar7987]

Thank you. I've never seen this movie. I'm learning about my family tree and this would be fun to watch.

[@am1314]

Here's tae the jacobites, god bless them Alba gu brath

[@alextripney3812]

God Bless you to my friend. We are a rare breed.I am so Blessed that I am Scottish.🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[@oarfrost]

@ThePoorhillbilly "Charlie and the Jacobites were so close to taking London. why the hell didn't they? " They couldn't have held it. The Jacobites were in an odd position. They kept winning battles but didn't pick up much support., particularly from the French who were supposed to send an army of regulars to their aid. So they had to leg it back to the Highlands before the government got its act together and sent in a first string team.

[@ZeitgeistWI]

The Flower of Scotland is not one person or one figure in history- it is the spirit of Scots who paid the ultimate price to offer a brighter future to the generations that came after. It is the spirit of generations moved to action to preserve liberty and freedom. That watch now falls to a new generation and they must now heed the call. God bless Scotland and let her be free!

[@DivaJefferson]

I wish this movie was uploaded on KZbin...I've been wishing to see it for such a long time now...:(

[@Outdoorsman1968]

It was a few years ago, but it was taken down a couple of months later. I still love the film, even though it was not a commercial success.

[@apoksi]

archive.org/details/BonniePrinceCharlie1948 here is the movie

[@Outdoorsman1968]

@@apoksi Thankyou so much.

[@apoksi]

@@Outdoorsman1968 you are welcome!

[@ZeitgeistWI]

Don't doubt it for a moment, the love for our heritage is just as strong and maybe a bit stronger because we have been away. Put yourself in our place. We have heard the stories and read the history and lived with that in our hearts since we were born for most. How does that make our determination any less?

[@patriciajrs46]

It doesn't.

[@ThePostbear]

The Great Getaway the new epic based on the life of Bonnie Prince Charlie is being filmed in Scotland at this point in time....release date some time in 2017

[@postkonserwatysta]

Hail to You, Scots, you fought for honour, for faith, for real king; better living under republic than alien kings. Greetings from Poland. For our freedom and yours.

[@westernwarhorse]

There are more Protestants because Lowlanders let themselves become more English than Scottish. The Highlands were and are dominated by Catholics, but the Highland Clearances ensured that population wouldn't matter.

[@matthewwiddowson9817]

I'll never be ashamed to say that Prince Charles Edward Stuart is and always will be my hero and inspiration. No more we'll see such deeds again!

[@selectheowl]

the guy who legged it to Italy?

[@matthewwiddowson9817]

+selectheowl Ok, well that's just historically inaccurate. He did not flee to Italy, after 5 months in Scotland avoiding capture in Scotland he was rescued by a French ship and taken back to France. In France he spent every effort trying to convince Louis to raise a French army to try again, and then a Spanish army. he petitioned Russia and Sweden to support him and was weeks away from leading a Swedish army of 9000 soldiers but was foiled by the Hanoverian spy's who ransacked the Swedish ambassadors house and found the plans. He even raised his own force of around 60 men to capture London but was foiled when the King didn't arrive. He only returned to Italy 30 years later when King James (his Father died) It wasn't until then that Charlie stopped actively trying to regain the British throne from the Germans. It's amazing how many people don't know their own history and you should show respect to a British hero who tried to save the country from a German tyrant.

[@englishjacobite5317]

agreed Mathew

[@englishjacobite5317]

A lot closer to the throne then George of Hanover though. Charles never wanted to retreat from Derby and was reluctant to leave England but was left with little choice. I believe he fully intended to come back and relieve Carlisle when it became possible. I also believe he vastly underestimated the level of brutality that Cumberland and the Hanoverian army would use against those they captured, which was very different to the treatment of Prisoners by the Jacobite Army. As regard to my getting a life, I already have one and a very happy one it is too, but cheers for the concern

[@Theagchm]

Yes that make his cowardice and murder of his men so much more worthwhile....because he intended to come back!!! Cumberland was a sadistic fuck of a human and had previous so the foreign fop has no excuses for his cowardice and murder of the Scots under his command. I know the Highlanders were desperate but bonnie fucking prince charlie - the Highlanders themselves have no excuse.

[@ZeitgeistWI]

Personally, if I were living in Scotland, I would feel pretty good about the fact that over 11 million people plus in the United States claim Scottish ancestry. That is huge! An enormous pool of people who are willing to help out the country of their forefathers and their ancestors. That says volumes about Scotland and how those who are Scottish, even those of us across the pond, feel. Yeahbuddy, myself, you , spr65 and others all share a common bond and that is, to me, all that matters.

[@KingEdwardtheTurbulentNeill26]

Not just Americans that have Scottish heritage and ancestry, here in England there's also people who have Scottish heritage and ancestry like myself which my family on my dad side of the family fought in Scottish regiments, one was in the blackwatch during the Victorian era and my dads dad fought for a Scottish regiment in WW2. And I'm proud of my Scottish heritage and ancestry.

[@LittleDragon2000]

@wallyozzy There are a number of books that explore the idea that it was the Scots more than anyone who created Canada. The best is probably "Great Scots! How the Scots Created Canada." It has a good section on the Battle of Quebec/Battle of Canada/ Plains of Abraham The best book on the battle is "1759: The Battle for Canada" by Laurier LaPierre But there is also this "1759: the battle that won Canada" And the Canadian Encyclopedia online has lots Hope this helps

[@LordTheProut]

Aukd Alliance !!! Auld Alliance !! Hourra !!!! a so beautiful music, a so marvelous story !!! "L'Auld Alliance n'a pas été écrite sur un parchemin de peau de brebis mais gravée sur la peau d'homme, tracée non par l'encre mais par le sang" - Alain Chartier XVème Siècle ." "Dans chacun des combats où, pendant cinq siècles, le destin de la France fut en jeu, il y eut toujours des hommes d'Écosse pour combattre côte à côte avec les hommes de France" - Charles de Gaulle, Edinburgh, 1942"

[@alextripney3812]

God Bless the house of Stuart.True King Of Scotland,and God Bless Bonnie Charlie and those who fought and died for him and for what was rightfully ours.🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[@alextripney3812]

I agree my friend God Bless The House Stuart and our Bonnie Scotland Forever.I Absolutely Adore Being A Scot.We are a different kind.👍🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[@ClanScottishMetal]

@gaconnochie He was obviously trying to make things better for catholics and push his agenda. But knowing the protestants were ready to string him up by the balls, he's trying to keep them happy also. At the end of the day, he was not really opposed for being a bad king (which he kinda was) but for being catholic and giving birth to a catholic heir. And giving positions of power to other catholics, which was a big no no in the days of persecuting catholics.

[@ZeitgeistWI]

I am ashamed that such a beautiful land so full of pride and promise as Scotland seems all too ready to turn its back on those who came from Scots who gave up everything to leave and start a new life in a strange land. It took more courage and strength of character to do that in those days than to sit back now and call Scots abroad less than Scottish. Yes I am a Scot and an Yank and I bow no knee to any King or Queen and damn glad of it too. I will wait for a day when my Scotland returns.

[@patriciajrs46]

Good for you.

[@MrJimmyboy1972]

@oarfrost he couldnt speak a word of english or gallic, only french or italian, Oh! his mother was polish. quite a mixture for a scottish prince.

[@jeanlucplancher872]

Vive l écosse libre, vive bonny prince Charlie

[@arialbati4011]

C'est vrai que l'on a le Coeur Serré ! quand on pense à l'ECOSSE et à Bonnie Prince Charles....On pense aussi aux valeureux chevaliers et soldats servant la Couronne de france avec notre héroine JEANNE D'ARC..

[@dillj1000]

Long live the Catholic Stuart, there day May come again, sooner than we think. Maybe the Great Catholic Monarch will restore them when his armies conquer the world and the will rule with honour and justice the restored kingdom of Scotland.Vive Christo Rey!!!!!!

[@jerrymorris3466]

My father only seen this movie when he was young recently ordered this movie but won't play on DVD player saying wrong region any help with find one for region 1

[@gaconnochie]

@oarfrost Och it is one of these we'll never know "what if" situations. Another one is what if they hadn't invaded England? What if he'd been happy to consolidate in Scotland. Supposedly Edinburgh was back in Hanovarian hands by the time the Jacobite Army hit Dalkeith. They only controlled when the army was in situ. That may have changed had they consolidated. As for the retreat I suppose one has to take the councils overall view into account. The Scottish commanders and chiefs had no wish to

[@americrevolutwar1777]

@mikeybhoy12345 Thanks everyone! What you said helped, and also reading the book Rebellion and Savagery did as well. Thanks again!

[@jasamkrafen]

Greetings from Darwin Cameron of Alaska. My uncle had heard of Camerons from eastern Canada... Anyhow agreed, tears are easily shed.

[@Gillian1746]

Beautiful song - Bonnie Prince Charlie was considered to be the rightful King of Scotland and that is why he was and is loved even today; he was the grandson of James II who was deposed by six English protestant Lords and fled to live in St Germain en Laye in France.

[@patriciajrs46]

Wow! I looked up ancestry lines: related to all four: English, French, German, and Scottish. I'm a mutt.

[@ZeitgeistWI]

Scotland, Ireland and Wales can all realize their potential and their bright futures and I hope that I am alive to see the Scotland of my dreams and my heart become independent of ANY outside influence and rule herself. Thanks much for your comment in reply to mine. I appreciate your comments and opinions and appreciate your bringing another point of view to the conversation. Take care.

[@westernwarhorse]

Being descended from a Jacobite is something to be proud of. King James II and Bonnie Prince Charlie only went through all of this because they were Catholic and supported religious freedom. The English were Protestant and wanted to make sure only a Protestant could rule them. All of the problems in Ireland stem from the same anti-Catholic racism perpetuated by the English. If you are disgusted by your ancestors, you obviously have no idea why they fought.

[@mila0947]

What is the name of the song?

[@ni200v]

Bonny Portmore

[@DivaJefferson]

I want to see this movie...but I can't find it anywhere :(

[@McAroe]

O flower of Scotland When will we see Your like again That fought and died for Your wee bit hill and glen And stood against him Proud Edward's army And sent him homeward Tae think again

[@BuckDanny2314]

"O bonny Portmore, I am sorry to see Such a woeful destruction of your ornament tree For it stood on your shore for many's the long day Till the long boats from Antrim came to float it away. O bonny Portmore, you shine where you stand And the more I think on you the more I think long If I had you now as I had once before All the lords in Old England would not purchase Portmore. O bonny Portmore, you shine where you stand And the more I think on you the more I think long If I had you now as I had once before All the Lords in Old England would not purchase Portmore. All the birds in the forest they bitterly weep Saying, "Where will we shelter or where will we sleep?" For the Oak and the Ash, they are all cutten down And the walls of bonny Portmore are all down to the ground. O bonny Portmore, you shine where you stand And the more I think on you the more I think long If I had you now as I had once before All the Lords of Old England would not purchase Portmore."

[@patriciajrs46]

Thank you. Could you please tell me who sang this for this video?

[@alextripney3812]

Thank you so much for dictating these beautiful Scottish words.I don’t love being Scottish I ADORE BEING SCOTTISH.Thank you again.❤️🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

[@ZeitgeistWI]

All those patriots who gave their lives in the past stand with Scotland today and they wait for that which they had fought for in their time, a free Scotland ruled by Scots and for Scots. They are there with you today in the cities and towns in the glens and the valleys. They stand there waiting welcoming all who would come to the aid of their nation. Who will answer the call?

[@ZeitgeistWI]

Scotland needs all of her sons and daughters, even those who went abroad, to make the dream of sovreignty a reality. It is good to remember and mark the past so we do not make the same mistakes but Scotland must be free and all Scots must come together to make that happen. One Land, One People Free to choose their own path!

[@lorenheard2561]

Very true..What about now with all this forced exile with globalist tyrants pushing us to take the damn poison or no rights to travel!!😡🤬🤬

[@Thompsonf1001]

witch film is this from ??

[@Ggdivhjkjl]

The visuals are from Bonnie Prince Charlie (1948) (www.imdb.com/title/tt0040183/).

[@ZeitgeistWI]

I teach history at the secondary level and I don't live anyone else's history, I learn from it. In learning about history, you can't cut yourself off from learning and you must learn as much as you can. Along the way, some people specialize. By learning about the past, we can avoid making the same mistakes in the future. That is what I do. I learn about my heritage and I honor that heritage, nothing more and nothing less. My history is mine alone to make.

[@lunabranwen]

what year did this movie come out?

[@jacobkeppler1984]

Beautiful music

[@ZeitgeistWI]

Until that time, I will leave Scotland to the "real Scots" who seem to regard me and those like me with such disdain. I pity the future with such close mindedness and such anger towards those who bore you no ill will but would gladly help you as they could. Maybe I am a dreamer but perhaps one day my Scotland, the Scotland I have always thought of, will return and she will welcome me not as a stranger but as one who has been gone but not forgotten. I wish you all peace and honor.

[@tearlach45]

Name of the song anyone?

[@aelmat6036]

Thank's for the video , and the music Loorreena Mc Kenny

[@Rhymemaker]

Nice montage with a good soundtrack. Well put together.

[@rarias9629]

¡Viva el verdadero Don Carlos III Estuardo! ¡Viva Cristo Rey!

[@orckiller91]

May Scotland yet see her freedom, once more to take her place among the countries of the world.

[@knightswoodbear]

Wallace may have been a patriot but he was fighting for the nobility, it's often forgotten that he was fighting to reinstate King John. If he was fighting for freedom it was for the freedom of aristocratic privilege rather than freedom for the vast majority of people living in a feudal society. There were also a great number of supporters for Union and the decision was taken by the Scottish Parliament - who actually drove an incredibly hard bargain with the English.

[@gaconnochie]

@AlbaSiar "With respect, I'm sick of your silly remarks on this board accusing people of being members of organisations without any proof or justification." With respect I never accused anyone of being members of the said organisation. I simply pointed out that the said organisation existed. As to the level of support the SNP at the last Holyrood election attracted 45.4% of the votes cast. Michael Moore's party (secretary of state) attracted only 7.9% of the said vote.

[@gaconnochie]

decades members of Seed Of The Gael (a tiny insignificant vehemently anti-English fascist organisation) have been ostracised by the SNP. Salmond has said that the role of the monarchy is for future Scots to decide. They are (ie the monarchy and independence) in essence two seperate subjects so I suspect he is wanting to keep any referendum as simple as possible. I know that grates with many republican Nats but it is the party's position.

[@gaconnochie]

As to the fascism thing. I know there are different views on whether we should have the union or not and that is fair dos but again we should keep the debate sensible. The Nats position is that on independence anyone legally living in Scotland would be offered citizenship regardless of place of birth, nationality, colour, creed or religion. They are most definitely not a fascist organisation. That is not to say there are not fascist or bigoted Scots Nationalists of course there are. But for

[@gaconnochie]

should sit on the throne seems absurd. The Queen isn't descended from William and Mary. They have no descendents as they had no children. Neither did the last Stuart monarch Queen Anne. The Queen's descent was from the Hanovarian line. The throne was offered to Sophia of Hanover and her descendents. Sophia was the daughter of Princess Elizabeth of Scotland who was the daughter of James VI of Scotland and I of England. So yes the Queen's ancestors were related to all the relevant parties.

[@gaconnochie]

@yehrightify I kind of agree with you about the correlation between Jacobites and modern politics as there is none. They were about who would sit on the British throne. Fletcher of Saltoun the most obvious anti-unionist in the 18thC was vehemently anti-Jacobite too. He beleived in stripping further powers from the monarchy not going back to a medieval divine right situation which the Pretenders offered. Likewise I'm not a monarchist so the idea that many died arguing over which royal arse

[@gaconnochie]

crown in London. He was certainly in a position to consolidate in Scotland. It would basically have turned the clock back to the Restoration period where the Episcopalian regime dominated over the more numerous Presbyterians. Difference is Charles II and James VII had their power base in London which the Pretender would not have. He would need to be more conciliatory towards Presbyterians than they had been to unite the country. And without a united country they would have had no chance in

[@gaconnochie]

All of the Scottish regiments were on the continent as there was a major European war going on. There was no armed force present to oppose him apart from Cope's regiment. However as I said by the time the Jacobite army returned from England there were many on arms against them in Scotland - not just regular regiments. That is a fact and saying it does not make one a Hanovarian. As to the what-if he'd stayed in Scotland? First of all it wasn't on his agenda so it is a big if. The target was the

[@gaconnochie]

@Gonzoidz First of all he was unnopposed, then the oppposition didn't constitute a majority, now there was no significant organised opposition without redcoats backing! stop moving goalposts. We know that Scotland was divided. We know that only a minority of people became involved and actively supported either of the sides. There was no active organised opposition to him because most of Scotland (ie all the Lowlands and many of the clans in the Highlands) was not an armed society by that time.

[@gaconnochie]

@Gonzoidz Being rude doesn't improve your point! He was largely unopposed initially because of the reasons I say. However by the time the army returned to Scotland they were more organised and there were a great many Scots in Scotland in opposition to him. Not just the regular Scottish regiments but the Independent Highland Companies; the Argyll Militia; numerous clansmen and all the local lowland militias etc.

[@gaconnochie]

@Gonzoidz He wasn't largely unopposed. There were many Scots in arms against him. When he arrived at first the armed resistance was ineffectual because it was the middle of a major European war with France (who of course encouraged his enterprise as a diversion) and virtually all of the regular Scottish troops were on the continent fighting the French. At the same time the clans who favoured the Hanovarians were for the most disarmed. There was plenty of men to oppose him just not the means.

[@gaconnochie]

@ClanScottishMetal Again though my point was that in Scotland it wasn't Catholic versus Protestant. It was largely Episcopalian versus Presbyterian as far as religion goes! The Scots Jacobites even refused to cross into England until Charles stripped any Catholic officers of their rank as they didn't want to be viewed in any way as an invading Catholic force - enabling him to then declare "look are we not a Protestant army?". Most Scottish Jacobites supported him despite his religion - not

[@gaconnochie]

@jeaherendeen I think you mean his grand-father - that is James VII of Scotland and II of England. Once he lost his English power base the Scots Parliament met to decide whether they would keep James as monarch or offer it to William and Mary instead. Both James and William wrote letters putting their cases. William's was concillatory - but James (who had many enemies because of his religious persecution of the Scots Presbyterians) wrote what was seemingly an arrogant letter confirming his

[@greymalkinfilms]

@ogreoh good morning. i doubt anyone would seriously dispute that english commercial interests (not too surprisingly) dominated the politics of the islands; but my own impression is that the stuarts were as much interested in the stuarts as in anything or anyone else (like most absolute monarchs, i suppose), not that i´m a historian or anything. none of them strike me as being any more altruistic (or even capable) than the hanoverians or any other royal family of the period.

[@gaconnochie]

only people who should feel guilt over the events have been dead for centuries. That is anyone involved in unwarranted oppression and the leading figures on both sides who were willing to sacrifice and manipulate innocents for their own selfish ends. There were of course Highlanders and Lowlanders on both sides on all the major Jacobite Rebellions! The rebels never got enough people out full stop. They weren't very succesful in recruiting the amount of Highlanders they needed, were even less

[@gaconnochie]

@AlbaSiar No-one sold out anyone. Scotland was divided over who should sit on the throne. It was as plain as that! And that was case from about the 1640sonwards long before the union. The defeat of the Jacobites was celebrated throughout much of Scotland so of course they'd be happy at the outcome of the battle but that doesn't mean people would necessarily have approved of the oppression in the aftermath. Of course you are right the story has been ridiculously romanticised since. However the

[@gaconnochie]

I will get that for you later though might be hard to find as it is more than a century old. It has its faults but does have transcripts of various letters etc which make fascinating reading. For instance Charles seems to be almost traumatised after the Battle of Prestonpans as he can't stand the thought that most of the casualties were English. He writes that he's heard Dutch troops have been brought to assist the Hanovarians and wishes all the enemy were Dutch so that he didn't need to shed

[@gaconnochie]

@LittleDragon2000 Oarfrost is from the east side of the pond so you can be assured that when he says British he means British - so he's meaning for that time period the Scots, English and Welsh. And taking the British as one he is right. Scotland was still divided over the issue but Jacobitism by the 45 was a dead duck in England. The Scottish Jacobite generals to a man didn't want to invade England. They wanted Charles to consolidate in Edinburgh and take the crown of Scotland for his father.

[@gaconnochie]

@LittleDragon2000 It doesn't make you any less Scottish than who? With all respect to folks of the diaspora I think that depends on who you ask! Some North Americans of Scottish descent may feel they are just as Scottish as Scots - but I think if you asked Scots how they viewed it you would get a different answer altogether. maybe that isn't what you were saying in which case I've gott he wrong end of the stick :-)

[@gaconnochie]

@LittleDragon2000 Scotland was considerably poorer at that time than England was. The 17thC especially was hard as Scots lost their traditional trading partners because of the association with England - yet were denied full access to the growing English empire - along with the civil wars that wrecked the country in the mid century - and along with the harvest failure and famines of the 1690s. I think it is probably an exaggeration to say the poorest country in europe. And at an earlier time the

[@gaconnochie]

@oarfrost I'm not sure that the religious thing wasn't an issue though. Scotland was vehemently anti-Catholic so his being a Catholic and the fact that a fair minority of his forces were Catholic would not have helped his cause. He would probably have recruited more Episcopalians (ie Scottish Anglicans who already made up the majority of his forces) had he converted though it wouldn't necessarily have changed attitudes in the Presbyterian central and southern Lowlands

[@gaconnochie]

@oarfrost after he'd assured them the English would rise in support of him and that the French were invading. They got as far as Derby then it started to dawn that no uprising or invasion was happening and they forced him to withdraw. They were an army of about 5,000 odd with a force defending London of about 6,000 which included the Royal Scots and Black watch; and two govt armies of over 10,000 each baring down on them; plus a smaller army of about 1,500 in Chester plus all the local militia

[@gaconnochie]

@oarfrost The said Act only related to Scotland as it predates the union. The later Union Settlement itself was drafted partly in reaction to the Act of Security and is a compromise position where the monarch is Head of The Church of England but in Scotland is a member of the Church of Scotland. The monarch has to take both oaths. As monarch she retains the right to attend the General Synod but is not allowed to take part in the debates - though she may address it if invited to.

[@gaconnochie]

@oarfrost Quite so William of Orange and later the Hanovarians may not have liked the limited aspect of it but they accepted it. The Scots left the door open for the Pretenders as they were sick of how the existing semi union worked against them as the monarchs always favoured the interests of their richer kingdom. Hence in the 1704 Act of Security they stated they may take a different monarch from England on Anne's death - with the proviso that they must be descended from the Scottish line

[@gaconnochie]

@1brutaldeath James VII as soon as he lost his English power base was branded a traitor and thrown off the Scottish throne by the Scottish Estates themselves. No they weren't democratic but what was on those days but they were more democratic than the idea of Divine Right Of Kings! The crown passed to Mary Stuart and her husband and then to Anne Stuart. Then the Hanovarian Sophie of Hanover was made heir. She was herself daughter to Elizabeth Stuart Princess of Scotland and only sexism made

[@ThePoorhillbilly]

@oarfrost The man was king, he got ousted by another man. he's still king. no matter which is law passed you can't take that away. He had quite a fair bit of support. yes that was the same parliament who thought it was perfectly fine to let 1 million irish die of starvation. thats where England and Scotland differ, the kings of Scotland actually represented their people and brought peace, where the kings of england were just sick bastard sons put in place and a spot to fill

[@ThePoorhillbilly]

@oarfrost Alexander II's campaign to London was helped by thousands of english a few hundred years before. I'd say relgion wasn't the only issue, but it was an issue. You can't simply say that the aftermath of Culloden wasn't a religious purge, what was it then? a cultural war? The Highlanders were proud people with their own rules and heirachy, not rebels and theives. The Clearences changed the Highlands for the worse. alot of the union armies were made up of convicts and exiles.

[@ThePoorhillbilly]

@oarfrost the Campbells were horrible they fought other clans and raped and killed their women and children. theyr;e were still Hannoverian troops and Austrians on the Battlefield. what i'm trying to say but got my facts wrong was mercenaries were used to fight this war. many government troops thought the aftermath was too far an act. its surprising that there was not alot of support from Catholics in England. The Jacobites were mostly volunteers.

[@ThePoorhillbilly]

@oarfrost ahah thats because noone in England actually fights battles.! they get scots to do the fighting for them. they waltzed on in into Manchester and Derby to cheering crowds, yet only 300 additions. The Jacobite Army was pretty good they had artillery, Flintlocks ( broadswords, were only for gentlemen and clan cheifs). Cumberlands army wasn't a threat they had barely as many men (Hannoverian, Austrians) as they would gain for Culloden. It was the Mystery army which was the deciding factor

[@ThePoorhillbilly]

@oarfrost the actual orders for attack at culloden didn't actually arrive. they sat there waiting for a fare while getting ripped apart by cannon fire not knowing what to do. they eventually charged by themselves. the messenger was shot down, but its pretty suss if you ask me. once again know known leadership. Charles had his authority challenged too much by the other pests. this is a man who had miltary training since he was born, and had witnessed battles across europe. he was no nancy boy

[@ThePoorhillbilly]

@oarfrost they also gave the British army a few weeks to gather themselves and actually go through more specific training in Aberdeen before Culloden. its Madness. they got shot by cannon for a good while before they charge at culloden, and the mcdonalds on the left could have just waited, or ducked in the mud whilst the main group engaged the front line. lack of leaders on the battlefiled meant that men piled into gaps in the english line and just got shot down by the second line. crossfire

[@ThePoorhillbilly]

@oarfrost no they had an army of 4 thousand men with additions from Manchester. in London there was basically no resistance. people were scared, and the word was going round that the king was going to leave. the french would have invaded and that would have been that. Charles knew the mythical army didn't excist, but the other jacobites thought they had come too far. they were only interested in taking back scotland. they could have won at culloden but supplies didn't come, lack of leadership

[@mcardle1]

The way i see it if u live in scotland if u want independance your catholic but if u want to stay part of the uk your protestant, iam not saying this is 100%. what i base this from is i asked every scottish person i know what they wanted freedom or to remain as GB and to the last man catholic=independance Protestant=GB iam scottish catholic wants independance and supports celtic same thing for rangers/celtic EVEN though none of they go to church or realy believe in god! its a strange county

[@ZeitgeistWI]

I think we can all agree that most politicians are self-serving and only concerned with their own power but there are some who can and should reach for a higher good and do what they know they can for the greater good. I think, given the right atmosphere and independence, Scotland's politicians might well come together and start seeing themselves with a real opportunity and do some good for the people. What can I say, I am an optimist but I think we all might be pleasantly suprised.

[@ZeitgeistWI]

I have said it before and I will say it again, Scotland has a bright future ahead of her without being part of any union and without being tied to policies of a "United Kingdom". Ireland and Wales too. Each should be independent nations working together with Great Britan as a bargaining block in the WTO and NATO. Scotland will lose nothing if it becomes independent. It will lose no allies, it will lose no commerce, it will lose nothing.But it will take forward thinkers to make it successful.

[@tearlach45]

Yeh i know but they arent even scottish they are like bavarian :P. The whole way of life for the jacobites was destroyed and still doesnt exist today. And all that exists today is the support for the jacobites and not actuall family members. Just about every catholic and episcopalian highlander was thrown out of scotland. But the support is certainl growing which is good, but i think most jacobit sympithisers these days want independence instead of the thrown back, as do i.

[@westernwarhorse]

Scottish = Irish. We need to stop dividing our own people based on what the English wanted. Scot means Irishman. The Gaels are one race, one people. The English put poor people in a position where they had no other options than military service. They'd use Irish regiments in Scotland and vice versa. They did so specifically to drive a wedge between our peoples. We need to get beyond that.