Can a Magic Deck Beat a Hearthstone Deck?

[@CardmarketMagic]

🔥🪨🗡🔨Decklists: bit.ly/3OZxEWa

[@sethstorm]

you cheated, you couldn't give seasoned hallowblade indestructible because you couldn't tap it.

[@CardmarketMagic]

@sethstorm I would like to ask you not to use that word (especially when you don't know the rules, like in this case) when commenting. Cheating implies that someone tried to lie or mislead to gain an advantage in the game. Accusing someone of cheating if they did not know the rules is unhealthy for the game and generally toxic behavior. But in this case, tapping is not a cost but an effect. You can always tap an already tapped creature as an effect, but not as a cost :) but please, do your best to comment with more healthy language in the future

[@sethstorm]

@@CardmarketMagic all right my apologies, its a common term my friends and I throw around without actually meaning to insinuate anything. another common one we use is "you lied to me" or "I lied to you" when we were really just wrong about something. I really meant no offense. As for the correction you made, I missed the : on the card and I apologize there as well. you are indeed correct. Thank you for being polite about it. I do appreciate it.

[@ChaseAnderson5k]

Fun to see how you guys make it possible to play magic vs a digital card game haha

[@maxerica69]

@@CardmarketMagic youre wrong and he doesnt need to apologize. Cheating doesnt mean to lie. It means to break the rules in some way which you did. CHEATER CHEATER!! Its a free country and youtube doesnt have any rules against the word cheat. Not only that, HEARTHSTONE DOES have creatures MINIONS ARE CREATURES so if you count the minion as a non-creature spell then you cheated there too. You can be ignorant of the rules and still cheat. You performed an illegal action which is by definition: Cheating. And you cannot tap something thats already tapped. Stop spreading misinformation. You try that stuff in the mtg video game and see what happens. How about you do your best to read the rules in the future Cheaty McCheaterson and let people use whatever language they are comfortable or familiar with conveying their thoughts in. Not everybody has fricken harvard level vocabularies.

[@andrewroy9263]

"Your brain works random enough" Aww, what a lovely insult lol

[@madisonking8057]

I think a creatureless combo deck has the best odds against a hearthstone deck.

[@JohnFromAccounting]

Doomsday is the best deck to play because it has a card that says "with the game".

[@janmelantu7490]

Storm would be hilarious to watch

[@beanofknowledge2125]

Burn spells would probably be good against a Hearthstone Deck, with Damage staying on Minions

[@piercearora7681]

@@beanofknowledge2125 Not worth it, you really don't want to be spending multiple cards to kill something.

[@ursulcx299]

Control too, heartstone isnt designed to handle things like flash/instant But a combo deck not having to worry about disruption would be the best yes

[@otsokarhu9695]

Thoralf really said warlock hero power is the worst, but it's usually considered the best one.

[@sylvainsanesti3499]

it's up there with hunter I think. but yeah it's a very solid hero power lol (poor paladin)

[@Zavendea]

Yep, there’s a reason Warlock cards are usually bad. Design has also talked about how they always have to balance neutrals around not being too strong in Warlock

[@Glassesgorilla]

With all the aggro deck running around life tap is basically suicide button 😅😅😅

[@sylvainsanesti3499]

@@Glassesgorillanot necessarily. sometimes paying 2 life to increase your chances to draw your board clear is the play against aggro. it's certainly more useful than most hero powers.

[@Gabu_]

@@sylvainsanesti3499Paladin was considered the best class for most of the game's life, I think we're good.

[@catbot6037]

Minus a few inaccuracies when dealing with hearthstone, this has been one of my favorite videos from this channel in a long time! I wouldn't mind a sequel at all!

[@CanadianPianoMan]

The pivot to a deck with Starfish to deal with Carl's Indestructible gameplan was a 5head move.

[@Mate_00]

The issue is at 2:50 they established that creatures and minions are different things. So silencing all minions wouldn't do anything to MtG creatures, using their previous internal logic. That being said, I hope that was just a joke, because that would also break many other things, like HS minions not being able to attack MtG creatures at all etc.

[@kingspammeth8714]

My only problem is that esper sentenial triggered on cards it should of not triggered. There are spells in hearthstone but creatures, weapon, and coin doesn't count as them.

[@grubbygeorge2117]

@@kingspammeth8714 This is true for creatures and weapons, but coin very much is a spell.

[@aymonverheij1863]

@@Mate_00 if you listen again you can hear him say that they are creatures

[@danielslack9114]

@@Mate_00 They joke about that, but watching the actual gameplay he doesn't draw the cards for minions being played since minions and creatures are equivalent things.

[@JustSumIdiot]

Long-time Hearthstone player here, warlock hero power is widely considered the best hero power, I have no idea why Thoralf said it was the worst

[@DiabloTommaso]

Not as op as it used to be

[@trysephiroth007]

It's much weaker now since everything gives so much card advantage

[@Bob_Bobinson]

it's the single best one to this day

[@phyose4793]

How strong the hero power is is entirely dependent on the meta and what decks are legal in whichever format you're playing in. Demon Seed Warlock does well with Warlock's hero power, but it the effects of the hero power don't compete with Paladin's hero power in Dude Paladin or with Mage's hero power in Ping Mage.

[@Bob_Bobinson]

@@phyose4793 thing is with something like hero power mage you need additional card to make that hero power that strong you don't need to do that with life tap

[@robertbentley2897]

I really, REALLY want more of this content as someone who plays both games. This was awesome.

[@hypercube34]

There are more videos like this on KZbin, but this one is by far the best one I've seen

[@sh4dowf0xx55]

The entire video, I was thinking about making a ruleset to integrate booth games against each other, and holy moly, the issues of base mechanics not working well with each other and number of edgecase interactions bewteen mtg's 27,000+ unique cards and harthstone's digital mechanics are making me want to never ever do this xD I love both games, but you would probably need an entire rules comitee for a format like this.

[@davedoublee-indiegamedev8633]

Id love to see HS vs MTG with HS rules only, or with MTG rules only (with adapted mechanics ofc)

[@music00soba]

damage to your hero through armor counts towards the quest @18:30

[@zorinzorinzorin5243]

They messed it up a few times unfortunately, but I understand why they made that mistake.

[@Terry.M.I.]

he wasnt winning with tamsin anyways xD

[@yvaskhmir]

If not for that and one play mistake, he'd have Tamsin two turns earlier.

[@FlyingDominion]

For anyone else who doesn't know the card, she's a 7/7 with "Battlecry: For the rest of the game, damage you take on your turn damages your opponent instead."

[@EmperorAzriel]

Imagine trying this with Yugioh and realizing your opponent has 8000 life

[@cybzer0560]

LOL. They probably have to do some kind of conversion. Also, the YGO player vomiting their hand and otk-ing

[@ryonalionthunder]

“Turn 2. I play kuriboh and attack you directly for 300/20.” 😅

[@fredranzalot4849]

Pretty sure they did that. It went about as well as one might expect.

[@korytoombs886]

Someone did that. The MTG player just countered all their spells.

[@maxfawcett143]

They already did that. Turns out Chalice of the Void works great when all your opponent's cards cost 0.

[@Medbread]

Nobody's talking about how they have an entire Hearthstone deck in real life on paper cards and didn't even call attention to it

[@legitmycats5905]

Ngl I thought of that when opening the video! Maybe they just printed them, like that one casual MTG format

[@himaji1369]

which mtg format? @@legitmycats5905

[@Broockle]

@@legitmycats5905 And then sleave the paper... Would be very un-chonky cards. I wonder how those even shuffle 🤔

[@hunterhuffman4520]

@@Broockle you put them over real cards so they are chonky

[@Broockle]

@@hunterhuffman4520 taht would definitely be better. But what do yo use? Can you just use your mtg tokens or land, or some old yugioh starter deck? 😆

[@sugarconner]

Losing armor counts as taking damage Thoralf! Silly silly...

[@The_JPhantom]

Fairly sure it doesn't because you're technically not taking damage, your armor is. I'd need to go back to HS to be sure but as far as I remember it only counts if it's HP damage

[@sugarconner]

@@The_JPhantom kzbin.info/www/bejne/qYGlhGhveKyCqdUsi=_Nys15vjYt3sZjFQ&t=152

[@sugarconner]

@@The_JPhantom Check out 'Warlock's most powerful Wild deck, The Demon Seed!' by MartianBuu then watch from 2:36 onwards for proof

[@vaspeter2600]

​@@The_JPhantom No, it does count as taking damage

[@neilu7132]

HS has changed some parts of damage costs recently (I know for sure that cards that cost life can't be payed with armor anymore for instance), so idk if the demon seed still works with armor, but it definitely used to before yeah, I remember people playing cristalizers back to back to quickly complete a quest part

[@FaceD0wnDagon]

I think you could actually make a semi-fair format out of MtG vs HS with just a little setting of base rules. 1) MtG cards that refer to "color" refer instead to class cards. Druid or Hunter = Green, Mage or Shaman = Blue, Priest or Paladin = White, Warlock, Rogue, or Death Knight = Black, Warrior = Red, and Demon Hunter could be put where ever you want based on if you want to count physical color or philosophy more. Neutral cards are colorless, as established. 2) Equivalencies must be established. Weapons are Artifact - Equipments and vice versa. HS Spells are Sorceries, while magic Instants and Sorceries are HS Spells. Minions and Creatures are synonymous terms. Maybe Secrets and Locations are Enchantments and vice versa, an Enchantment can be treated as a Secret or as a Location. 3) There are a handful of keywords based on the attacking/targetting/blocking procedures of both games, which would need reworked if the other game's targeting rules are used. To be honest, I think either system could work. - 3A: If both players use MtG style attacks, attacks are declared all at once and the defender chooses blockers. The keywords Taunt and Rush would need reworked to stay relevant - Taunt could be converted to Reach without much issue. Rush could be a trigger, "when this enters the battlefield, it may fight target creature." IDK. - 3B: If both players use HS style attacks, then attacks can be declared at any time, one at a time, with targets chosen freely. The keywords Flying and Menace would need reworked to stay relevant as well as Unblockable which may or may not be a keyword, I forget. Unblockable could simply be "ignores taunt." Someone suggested that Flying should be "can't be targetted by attacks," but there are many options. Menace could be "once each turn, when this attacks and kills a creature, it can attack another creature." Trample could stay as is, but would be stronger than usual for it. Dunno. Messier in some ways than the Magic thing. - 3C: Each system could use its own targeting, but I dislike this option because it will essentially force the MtG player to abandon creature-based strategies. 4) A hearthstone player normally can't interact with the graveyard, or have their "graveyard" interacted with. I honestly don't know how to solve this one, other than making sure degenerate GY combos are impossible for the MtG player. 5) I think it's OK if MtG creatures heal at the end of every turn and the HS ones don't. HS creatures usually have more stats as a baseline, though not always. Similarly, most of the other asymmetries not mentioned seem fine. ...maybe that would still end up with MtG combo vs HS aggro, but it would at least help smooth things out. This isn't like YGO vs MtG though; I think this one has some potential.

[@shieldgenerator7]

I like the ideas here, but I also like each game using their own targeting rules, and keeping their keywords same. Only thing that changes is how the other game interacts with the keywords. Ex: flying is the same, but hs minions can't attack flying creatures unless they also have flying Also, I think the mtg player should be able to use their creatures to block if enemy minions attack the player

[@curtin1107]

For 3, I'd probably go with: Hearthstone Minions are treated like Planeswalkers in that MTG players have to 'attack' them. Taunt means 'creatures without taunt must be attacked" Creatures are treated like minions in Hearthstone, but each minion attack is its own combat for MTG, and MTG players can block accordingly. Again, the MTG player treats each of their own creatures like a planeswalker for the purpose of blocking.

[@JuniperHatesTwitterlikeHandles]

I'd say the magic player can attack any creature as if they were planeswalkers (unless one has taunt which works normally), while the hearthstone player declares attackers and the magic player chooses their targets, which is considered blocking. This keeps both decks working roughly within their own rulesets.

[@beefpelican]

I especially agree with point 2. When there are obvious comparisons, it’s foolish to ignore them.

[@xchronox0]

- 3D: Combat works depending on whose turn it is. The MtG player declares attackers, and because declare blockers happens during the MtG player's turn, that means the HS player can use their minions to block. Then Taunt can become "Reach. This minion must block at least one attacker if able. It can block multiple creatures." Flying stays as it is during the MtG player's turn, meaning it cannot be blocked by HS minions without . The HS player attacks as normal. But the HS player cannot hit creatures with flying. I do feel like this is still favoured towards the HS player, though. Though maybe Carl was just playing the wrong deck. MtG is generally a more interactive game, and he was seemingly playing the least interactive deck outside of Esper Sentinel.

[@CanadianPianoMan]

I believe there's a small mistake at 3:34 with the Carving Chisel trigger where you actually CAN summon a basic totem already in play, unlike with the Shaman hero power. ETA: and 5:05

[@thetacog]

I believe that with any effect that summons a random basic totem, it goes through all four of them before summoning any duplicates, but I could be wrong, I don't play shaman anymore.

[@superyahoo1822]

@@thetacogthe hero power locks out after controlling all 4 but every other source summons a random one no matter which ones you have on board

[@thetacog]

​@@superyahoo1822That's crazy. I never knew the hero power just locks itself.

[@mikcent4435]

the hero power doesn't lock itself anymore, it's been changed couple months ago

[@TijnMercx]

Guys! There’s 5 basic totems currently That’s the biggest mistake they made, hearthstone put the lovely storm spelldamage totem back in

[@LusscaLP]

When the Hearthstone card said "Spells cost 1 more", it should've been interpreted as "Instant and Sorcery spells cost 1 more", as in HS "Spell" refers only to those kinds of cards

[@arandombard1197]

The card says what it says. Spells cost 1 more and creature spells are undeniably spells.

[@OGAMIS]

This was a really fun idea - but I think it would have been better if you'd had an actual Heathstone player. Hearing Thoralf confidently describe Life Tap, the largely undisputed best hero power in the game, as "actually the worst" aged me XD

[@moersertrupp]

or the amount of miss sequences with the warlock deck^^

[@iuricunhamurakami8261]

He is a wild player clearly, in wild, hero powers suck, unless you are playing genn greymane, even in the demon seed deck, if you are life tapping, you are not playing the best the deck can play, 2 mana is a lot of mana for you to just draw a card, when the kobold can do it for 1 mana only for example

[@moersertrupp]

@iuricunhamurakami8261 dont mean heropower but thinks like being at 5/10 of the quest and then using spirit bomb first to got to 9/10 instead of crystallizer

[@iuricunhamurakami8261]

@@moersertrupp I was talking about the original comment on him being wrong describing life tap as the worst hero power

[@Beefman.0]

Funky, very interesting how these two games interact, now we gotta have a crossover with Rarran

[@broomob]

do you really think they want that level of negativity on their channel

[@hypercube34]

@@broomob You must mean Zeddy. Rarran's actually pretty cool

[@ThymeTwister]

He's played a bit of Magic, and he has the Canadian factor aswell. I could see that working well!

[@broomob]

@@hypercube34 no

[@yazorock]

@@broomob Are you a Yu-Gi-Oh player? Because that's really the only card game Rarran has been negative towards, even though he actually plays that game.

[@zendicarreborn8896]

As a massive fan of both Magic and Hearthstone I LOVE this!!! Idk who decided to do it but thanks and good job! Also Carl was in the video, so that automatically gets a like in my book

[@OrdemDoGraveto]

If Carl is gonna cheese and say "minions aren't creatures", then Thoralf should have answered that in hearthstone only SPELLS are SPELLS. Minions and equipaments are not creature spells... But they aren't non-creature SPELLS eighter hehe I think the hearthstone minions shouldn't be able to attack the FLYING creature. PS: Warlock hero power is considered by far the best one.

[@PrimalRockSlapper]

For this "format" stuff like that really just has to be determined by the players before the game begins.

[@OrdemDoGraveto]

@@PrimalRockSlapper Nah, I like the "let's figure it out as it happens". It makes more interesting FOR THE VIDEO.

[@thejackscraft3472]

The difference is that in magic there are spells that make creatures that are not creature spells, while there are no cards beyond lands that aren't spells when you cast them.

[@OrdemDoGraveto]

@@thejackscraft3472 Yeah, but he tried to cheese it out. "Tecnically minions aren't creatures, so if you play a minion I get to draw a card as it's a non-creature spell". Well, tecnically they aren't spells. MAGIC CARDS that aren't lands are all spells. Hearthstone cards that aren't spells aren't spells.

[@thejackscraft3472]

@@OrdemDoGraveto Carl's playing by magic rules, so for him, all cards that aren't lands are spells. just like how Thoralf could attack creatures directly since he's playing with Hearthstone rules.

[@pepper7880]

This was actually really interesting and clever! I liked the way you guys sideboarded/switched decks, the silence was a great touch!

[@theotherguy4456]

Him saying warlock hero power is "The worst" at 14:30 shows he has nnot been playing hearthstone long cause that hero power is one of the reasons warlock is often one of the best classes

[@reveler279]

even in beta warlock's hero power was considered the best

[@DiabloTommaso]

Not the best as it used to be. The only good wild deck is that stupid quest.

[@sapling951]

It is the best hero power, though hero powers, in general, are not really that great. You'd much rather spend your turn playing a card that either advances the board state or furthers your plan than hero power

[@peterkirk8510]

@@reveler279especially in beta. Its gotten worse over time, but the only way the vast majority of them have stayed relevant is stuff like even/odd/specific support printed (ping mage, quest/attack druid kinda stuff)

[@N0xN0ctis]

He plays wild. It is actually fairly bad in wild because as a warlock you can draw your entire deck in a few turns anyways.

[@demfrodegroot7596]

Two things that I think probably should be considered for if you guys do this again, which you probably won't. 1. Minions don't count as non-creature spells because they aren't spells. 2. The rules being largely hearthstone dominated definitely gives a disadvantage to the magic deck. It may be a bit more complicated, but I think Hearthstone attacking into Magic needs to deal with Magic rules for blocking, while Magic gets the advantage of choosing who they attack in hearthstone, with flying, islandwalk, etc, all reading 'ignore taunt'

[@shieldgenerator7]

I agree, except mtg player can only attack enemy player unless that player has minions with taunt

[@thejackscraft3472]

So, there's some good reasoning to support minions being non-creature spells. specifically, they go through the process that magic refers to as being "Cast" and magic definition of a "Spell" is something that is being "Cast", so they fit the definition of a spell when viewed through the lens of the magic rules, which is what the sentinel is looking at the game through. as for them being non-creature, they don't have the type "Creature", which is what's checked for what kind of spell it is. as for the rules for attacking and blocking, they're tricky, but I think the way to play it is more likely that each side attacks the way their game attacks, and the opposing side defends the way that the attacking side would defend. it does give an advantage to the HS player, but the format already has a lot of advantages for the magic player, like the existence of instants, so I think that's ok.

[@lawrencecobb2107]

@@thejackscraft3472I strongly disagree on the no creature spell thing. Each deck defines itself. Hearthstone has cards. Those cards are spells, creatures, weapons, and locations. Magic has cards. Those cards are (as far as I understand) just lands and spells. Hearthstone spells break out into secrets, auras, and the generic category of “spell” Magic breaks out spells into artifacts, creatures, instants, sorceries, enchantments, etc

[@thejackscraft3472]

@@lawrencecobb2107 but since a magic card must, for its own wording to be consistent, look at the game through magics rules, it would look for what magic defines as a "spell", then for the type line of "creature". A hearthstone card fits magics definition of a "spell", so would count, but none of them have the type line of "creature", making them non-creature spells as far as a magic card would see them, just like how things that affect minions on the board look for objects that fit a definition, not the type line, so work on mtg creatures, as they fit the parameters.

[@petteriviitalahde7464]

at 3:12, Carl does not get to draw a card, as weapons are not spells in hearthstone At 11:20, Thoralf says there are no auras in Hearthstone, but there are auras in hearthstone

[@zefereater4741]

🤓👆

[@tamo3329]

Are there auras? I know there are spells that buff your creatures, but are there cards that stick around and are permanently connected to that creature?

[@agustinalamonandere3271]

@@tamo3329 There's a card type that's called aura, but it's actually an enchantment that expires after a few turns. There are no auras that work like in magic apart from the buff spells you mentioned

[@petteriviitalahde7464]

@@tamo3329 there are auras, however they aren't permanent and usually last 3 turns, I think paladin is the only class that has them

[@tamo3329]

@@agustinalamonandere3271 oh right, forgot about those

[@FanosSlapVT2]

This is cool as hell we should see what happens when Warhammer fights Lego

[@Zorgdub]

Using the Hearthstone attack rules both ways didn't really feel fair, but you have to make judgment calls on these crossovers. Having different attacking rules would make the one using Hearthstone mode much powerful since they get to pick their targets. I wonder how it'd go if they both used Magic rules. That would also have the advantage of not making all evasion ability worthless.

[@eon2330]

To be honest. Lavinia' azorious renegade instantly kills hearthstone. You literally cannot play the game from the moment it hits the battlefield. Tons of mtg cards like that exist. Its not a hard game to break hearthstone since lands are only a mtg thing. For example, casting Forcing your opponent to copy treasure hunt. Then casting something like a fog. Heck isachrone scepter plus fog or some kind of universal fog(for all damage not just combat) would be GG. Heck isachrone into something silly like silence locks the game right there. Like... this is easy peasy.

[@normieguy3803]

they used their respective games rules, hearthstone could pick targets, mtg could not, but hearthstone couldn't block because that's not a thing in hearthstone. Not saying it was fair, but they were going by their own games' respective attacking rules.

[@aidanherbert6614]

Thoralf mulliganning the stonewright in a totem deck hurt me.

[@lars_rosenberg]

Game 1: Hammer time! Game 2/3: Mono White Prison

[@crapparc]

This reminds me of the early games of my friend's Magic days, where we played his Pokemon deck against my Magic deck.

[@EnderPryde]

Objection: MtG has a blocking system that was just never engaged with. Hearthstone has a similar system with Noble Sacrifice and other effects that redirect attacks, so any time the hearthstone deck attacked, blockers would have needed to be declared. For similar reasons, while Taunt would prevent MtG creatures from attacking (because MtG has no system to just attack creatures normally in combat), Hearthstone would also be unable to declare blockers against any MtG attacks.

[@EnderPryde]

Also, unironically, the MTG solution is just load up on creature kill spells, and then your win-con is to cast Mind Funeral (since there are no lands in a Hearthstone Deck to reveal) and then just Wheel them to maximize Fatigue Damage. Even a Demon Seed deck would just immediately fold to suddenly being 8 deep in fatigue before they've even finished the second step.

[@AnArmyOfFish]

I'm not certain that a grounded hearthstone minion would be able to attack a creature with flying directly given the nature of the ability difference. I honestly might have interpreted that as pseudo-stealth that doesn't go away after attacking given the nature of how the two abilities work in their respective games.

[@Drakefance5]

This is a fun concept, would definitely like to see more of these.

[@rusholotl]

Finally we got the crossover! :)

[@clovergannon]

Phrasing Hearthstone's opening three card opening hand as "a seven card hand, but four of the cards are lands," because of the consistent mana generation, is such a fascinating perspective. I love how Carl essentially recreated the old Bolf+Jailer combo by sacrificing the rest of his cards to give one creature the power to tank all the damage.

[@Sinzari]

In reality it's even better than that because you also never draw lands later either. One of the things I disliked about mtg was the dead land draws that happened later into the game

[@idanbhk3875]

Feels like using the Hearthstone combat rules for both players was unfairly skewed towards the Hearthstone deck. Why did Thoralf not have to attack and get blocked like in magic? Creatures like Esper Sentinel become WAY worse when you can attack them directly.

[@lifetake3103]

I believe they used the combat rules of their respective games

[@asdfasdf-mn8iu]

I mean, each player used their respective combat rules, but magic rules are way more restrictive. The magic player could also not attack anything but face, but the hearthstone player couldn't block.

[@lberghaus]

I think that if the hearthstone player has the natural ability to attack a creature directly, at least the magic player ought to have the natural ability to block with additional creatures in its defense.

[@bencheevers6693]

I like how they put the hearthstone cards in a card holding like the game, that was nice attention to detail

[@huggelion]

The quest counts armour to also be damage that is why the 1 mana card is so good

[@Avemor93]

As a fan of both MTG and hearthstone I really loved that vide. You rock guys! I just want to point something for the viewers that have not played hearthstone during that period - the warlock deck Thoralf played in the last game was actually really oppressive to the meta so the inital quest got nerfed twice, it originally required the player to take 6 damage to progress to the next phase rather than 10. Also the final rewarda is a creature that basically makes it so until the end of the game any damage the warlock takes on their turn is instead dealt to the opponent. If that was the version played in the video, Carl would have been defeated much faster.

[@MopeyN]

I love the tempo and energy. You just start the video, crack well put jokes and off we go ❤ That's how it should be done!

[@mrcharisma]

Loved this so much! Please make more of these crossover matches but reviewing the rules to make it more fair

[@moshimeshowu747]

My brain had a stroke when you asked if people would buy hearthstone cards on cardmarket😂😂

[@hiropisku1078]

Starfish coming in to show why even if you are normally unstoppable or a God, doesn't mean you can't be robbed of your power by a cuddly sea life.

[@SpartanRand]

Would you guys ever be interested in doing a Magic vs Legends of Runeterra? It’d be fun to see some of the unique mechanics like Deep from that game

[@CardmarketMagic]

Possibly :) this does sound like a good idea!

[@BruderSeth]

It brings me a lot of joy to see you guys having so much fun

[@SmashCentralOfficial]

14:22 the Warlock hero power is objectively the best one lmao

[@jhl1657]

Even if you have no clue about Hearthstone, paying life for a card draw is a very powerful ability in general TCG games.

[@davyespectador]

I woud love for Thoralf to play Reno, Lone Ranger because it just straight up exiles all permanents your opponent controls lmao.

[@steeezy9585]

I like teh concept but two different set of rules where - One side heals all damage naturally, and one stays.

[@ritasonka330]

Yeah, but look at those stats on those Hearthstone minions! I really don't think that was the most unfair aspect of this rules compromise.

[@orionstokesweiss2344]

This just felt weird, every call was made against mtg. Thoralf was playing wild vs Carl playing Modern, flying and protection were ignored while taunt and all hs effects got to take place. Felt like some more equal rules could have been used, or at least not an mtg deck that mainboards multiple ignored mechanics

[@thejackscraft3472]

fair, though this was probably done so that the HS deck actually had a chance of winning.

[@DKMperor]

@@thejackscraft3472The hearthstone guy didn't count his quest progress correctly, forgot to count his first raise dead, and damage to armor counts, he would have completed it and tasmin (the quest reward) turns all damage taken on your turn into damage sent to the opponent. 'spells' are a type of card in hearthstone, not every card like in magic There were odd calls from both sides, inevitable when trying to mesh the rules, but I am pretty sure hearthstone still would have won since the ability to "fight" a creature without playing green and spending cards is very powerful, and a base feature of hearthstone.

[@thejackscraft3472]

@@DKMperor yes, Thoralf did miss some beneficial effects, but this was also very much one of the worst decks that Carl could have been playing. The spell thing is really easy to justify, the Sentinel looks at the game through the magic rules, so it sees anything magic would classify as a spell as a spell, and most/all hearthstone cards fut that classification. Being able to attack creatures is only a benefit if your opponent is A, running creatures, and B, not running interaction. This again runs directly into the fact that this was possibly the worst decks Carl could have been playing, and even then, if they had made flying into a thing that meant it can't be attacked Carl would have just won the last game, even if Thoralf had remembered all his triggers.

[@juliandacosta6841]

Modern is basically wild. Vintage, historic, etc, are basically super wild.

[@thejackscraft3472]

@@juliandacosta6841 Nope, Modern has a limit on how far back you can go, but I can't find any such restriction for Wild, so it would be closer to Vintage, which is significantly higher power than Modern. and even then, Vintage has ban and restricted lists, which limit what cards you can use, Wild has no such thing that I can find. so if anything, Wild is Super Vintage.

[@DutchWeebChronicle]

Also the first pay 3, return 2 death minions didnt get counted for the quest. So the quest would be in next phase during that card, which would've change the quest progress in the next round aswell, since you wouldve passed the mark earlier aswell

[@CharlotteMimic]

Genn Greymane LMAO Genn and Baku are how I knew Companions were going to be broken, even before they were all spoiled

[@laurelkeeper]

Did Witchwood really come out before companions? Wow.

[@Shpeedle]

Yeh and baku is top 5 hearthstone neutrals. Like ever so​@@laurelkeeper

[@laurelkeeper]

@@Shpeedle No, I know how good Baku and Genn were-though I actually kind of liked how they played personally. I just joined MTG after I left Hearthstone but also a couple years after Witchwood. So it makes sense.

[@ModernArtery]

This was actually really cool, I hope you guys will do more of these matches with different deck matchups

[@Beefman.0]

Would have been funny to see cards like mind funeral or void mirror to take advantage of the fundamental rules of hearthstone. Or hearthstone cards like Peasant and Air Elemental that are just busted when you can’t attack creatures

[@BombaJead]

end the festivities does quick work of air elemental

[@zikli9249]

Mind funeral would most certainly work. Void mirror however not so much as a fundamental rule of hearthstone is that minions and weapons are not spells unlike in magic so a full minion/weapon deck would still most certainly stand a chance. Now King Togwaggle would be an interesting card that kinda screws over both players.

[@hintofinsanity]

eh, Magic has plenty of creatures like that already, there are just a lot of efficient ways to control the board with spells in magic, in addition to plenty of spells that just say no to you playing specific cards which were not used in this game. It was a terrible representation of what magic is actually like. dude played a very low power creature based deck.

[@NiiRubra]

That was pretty close actually! I would love to see more hearthstone vs magic games, this kinda seems like a legit match up, rather than a memey but fun puzzle like the Magic vs Yu-gi-oh one.

[@godfreyofbouillon966]

It was pretty close because otherwise it wouldn't be interesting to watch. They rigged it to make it pretty close. If you made actual best MtG vs HS decks (especially if not restricted by tournament banlists) MtG would wipe the floor with HS. MtG had decks that could win on turn one during opponents turn even if opponent starts first. Power level is incomparable here. But of course that wouldn't be as fun to watch :)

[@ferallyeasy6469]

@@godfreyofbouillon966 HS has had similiar decks same with yugioh all card games for the most part have similiar one turn decks thats not how this works or even how it should work

[@godfreyofbouillon966]

@@ferallyeasy6469 Im not sure what are you trying to say tbh

[@ritasonka330]

@@ferallyeasy6469 How the heck does HS survive as a game if it has decks that win on turn 1, without having any instant-speed interaction that would enable the opponent to do anything before losing?

[@Robsta42]

@@ritasonka330 I think the confusion here is turn one vs one turn decks. Hearthstone does not have turn one decks, it does have OTK decks. The usual counter play to a OTK deck is kill it before it does its thing, or disrupt it's hand/deck before it can do its thing.

[@adrianshrubowich6144]

really cool concept, not gonna lie I popped off a little when I saw that smothering starfish come into play, what a draw! Would love to see more of this!

[@kotkotzilla8772]

since you played even shaman im suprised carl wasnt facing a bot

[@mikeburns6213]

Cardmarket is one of my favorite channels so I often forget how I came here to begin with but this reminds me it all started with Carl doing can a magic deck beat a yugioh deck.

[@SyntheticNuclear]

Same

[@dangox3]

I love these interesting matches against different card games. It is very interesting against OCGs like Hearthstone. Maybe Shadowverse in the future?

[@hypercube34]

Shadowverse seems like a fun possibility!

[@TrueSaint916]

This was, by far, the best video ever on this channel. Great job!

[@1996MartinsMatheus]

Thoralf had actually made his homework! Even shaman is a tier 1 deck and Questline Warlock is a respectful strong deck right now (probably like tier 2). Both decks are from wild (the equivalent to legacy), but despite the starfish, neither deck was taylormaid to match the mtg decks, which surprised me how well they got around the Carl's shady workarounds

[@JinFreeks]

As we also saw Cult Neophyte I'm fairly certain this was an out of date list. Probably 3-6 months old. Starfish would have been run in the lists where Neophyte was included as well. Just a happy coincident I feel, as current quest Warlock lists would have been in trouble. Unless you argue rules with the quest reward about how its damage is dealt, if damage is dealt or it's just life loss etc. Thoralf would probably need something like big priest (shard of the Naaru) or secret mage (objection/counterspell) or last long enough to get to 9 mana on a current Reono list to find success.

[@syne1423]

@@JinFreeks Reno shaman has devolve which potentially works if they allowed it

[@JinFreeks]

True that. One internet point for you good sir.

[@1996MartinsMatheus]

@@syne1423 it would be funny to let them resolve a Devolve, probably they would random on scryfall for each creature until it gives a creature with cmc lesser than the og creature?

[@syne1423]

@@1996MartinsMatheus yup like the momir videos i suspect

[@tyronium6950]

If the hearthstone minions weren't considered creatures (because it's hearthstone and not magic), why were the creatures considered minions?

[@thejackscraft3472]

I assume it's because on the board "Minion" is a set of parameters that mtg creatures fit into.

[@animationtime7265]

Crossover number 2. This is gonna be fun

[@markuskoivisto]

This is such a wonderful video with such a nice and friendly atmosphere making both games look good. I would love to see even more of this type of content that lifts all boats. I’m almost tempted to reinstall hearthstone

[@RationalEgoism]

Hearthstone decks are 30 cards. Should be easy to kill with a mill deck.

[@garrisonwu5862]

1. In HS you dont instantly lose when you run out of cards. Instead you take gradually more and more damage every time you draw with an empty deck. 2. Theres a card called "Prince Renethal" that sets your lifetotal and deck size to 40 3. There are cards that shuffle copies of themselves into your deck, although you could get around that with a surgical extraction

[@vyor8837]

@@garrisonwu5862 And there are ways to win turn 3 in MTG with either infinites or alt win conditions. Good luck stopping that.

[@zacconquest9218]

This is a very interesting experiment but because of how some other rulings were made it feel like rush should not let you attack creatures as it specifies minion. But it was decided that creature =/= minion. Also because minions are not spells in Heatthstone as shown by them not being affected by counterspell technically the artificer would not have triggered and caused a card draw.

[@thejackscraft3472]

so, each players cards were looking at the game through their games rules, meaning that the Sentinel wasn't looking at whether HS considered the card a spell, it was looking at if it fit the mtg definition of a spell, which they do. the minion vs creature thing is a little trickier, but the easiest way I can explain it is that the Sentinel is looking for the type line "Creature" on the card, which no HS cards have, but the HS cards just look for a set of basic characteristics when determining if something is a "Minion" or not, and mtg creatures have those characteristics, so count.

[@Bomsanchu]

the stab at warlock for having the worst hero power feels weird, it used to be broken when there was a lot of self damage synergies and when warlock constantly played small stuff and just went face the full game without thinking of how much life you had.

[@AntiVectorTV]

I hope Carl knows that Thoralf's deck *popped off* in that first game, performing even better than that deck usually does, getting multiple lucky hits/draws in a row.

[@gabrielcornejo682]

They need both an MTG judge and a Hearthstone pro for this kind of videos just to solve stuff like the 3:12 saying a weapon is a spell, when in hearthstone spell generators can't create weapons, meaning they are not spells, just permanents

[@Rocknoob49]

they were already skewing the rules heavily towards the hearthstone side of things, so i think it's fine. just fun and games anyway 🤷‍♂

[@thejackscraft3472]

since Sentinel is a magic card, it would look at the game through the magic rules, in which a "Spell" is defined in a way that includes most/all hearthstone cards. so since they fit the definition, but don't have the card type "Creature" they are seen as non-creature spells.

[@jorgecabrera3694]

There are spells that do create weapons. Its a hunter card that lets you discover a minion, secret, or weapon.

[@jorgecabrera3694]

@TwizzElishus clarify

[@jorgecabrera3694]

@TwizzElishus because the way you found it. Pickpocket from Rogue is a spell generator that creates a weapon if you're lucky enough to hit the right card with the right classes. Or Puzzle box of Yogg Sarron if it hits certain spells that generates a weapon. Same with Yogg in a Box. Same with the Rouge spell that let's you cast 5 random spells that didn't start in your deck if your set up is right

[@MrGhosta5]

Surprised this actually worked because a lot of hearthstone cards are unplayable in a physical format. Like how would you play Yog or shifter Zarius.

[@DKMperor]

simply print every card in hearthstone as a sideboard and draw from it for random effects :p

[@vaspeter2600]

To be fair, Shifter Zerus is unplayable in Hearthstone, too

[@diogeneticist3585]

I'd like to see this again with the MTG player having a more basic deck to better see how the core mechanics interact. The attacking rules would end up being a lot more meaningful that way, e.g. if the Hearthstone player attacks face the MTG player would have the option to block, while if the MTG player attacks face the Hearthstone player can't block, so playing a more creature focused MTG deck would really change the dynamic. And, as Carl mentioned, there aren't instants in Hearthstone, so playing a more instant-heavy MTG deck would also make interactions more interesting.

[@sethb3090]

Honestly the Hearthstone and Magic combat rules don't really interact well. Hearthstone combat favors attacker, Magic combat favors blocker. The weird amalgam where Hearthstone does attacking normally but can't block I'm not even sure about.

[@diogeneticist3585]

@@sethb3090 The fact that they don't gel well is kinda why I'd like to see them clash like that.

[@sethb3090]

@@diogeneticist3585 my main worry is that if you conducted the magic player's combat phase by mtg rules and the Hearthstone one by Hearthstone rules you kind of get the best if both worlds for Hearthstone, where you can target select on both combat phases while your Magic opponent just has to sit there and take it. We already see how the magic deck gets washed by every minion being removal.

[@thejackscraft3472]

@@sethb3090 the issue is that the way you mention swings combat harshly in the mtg players favor, as all the creatures that are kept in check by the fact that your opponent can block are completely unleashed. Imagine an unblockable Ragavan...

[@N4m3lesS_1]

@@thejackscraft3472 i think hearthstone is always favored because they can remove your creatures with theirs. Most Magic creatures are weak but can have good effects if they sit on the board. The hearthstone Player doesnt need removal to kill all your creatures every turn. Maybe if you play monogreen and grow your creatures you can get around that, but then you cant block if they decide to attack you directly. Applying Mtg rules for the hearthstone and Hearthstone rules for the magic player would work better i assume, after all, hearthstone specifically has taunt creatures. Its headwrecking, honestly.

[@englishrobin96]

Excellent content as always - really enjoying these mashups and weird cross-game interactions!

[@Lukemyfather1]

11:20, there are auras in Hearthstone. They are usually from creatures, like "Tundra Rhino", "All friendly beasts gain charge" is its aura. There are also other permanent auras like "Barnabus" 's battlecry, "All minions you summon cost (0) for the rest of the game". Lastly, there are auras that you cast, which effect your boardstate, like a card from Fractured in Alterac Valley, "Dun Baldar Bridge", which is "After you summon a minion, give it +2/+2. Lasts 3 turns". So there are many different types of auras

[@sajtoskifli250]

Also the flametongue totem he played in the previous game, counts as an aura effect. And I would argue that the windfury spell counts as an enchant kind of spell.

[@Heresor]

There are some phrasings that you could use to make Hearthstone conform with Magic nomenclature. For example: Minions (and Titans) are Creature Spells. Buffs are basically token creature enchantments (which can be removed by Silence effects). Locations, for namesake reasons and lack of interactability are lands which take up a board slot. Secrets and Sigils could be treated as enchantments. Spells are obviously sorceries. Combat basically works like: "The opposing player chooses the minions/creatures you block with, they have to choose creatures with taunt" Also because the graveyard barely matters for Hearthstone players, spell cards can just be treated as creature enchantments for display purposes. There are a bunch of other effects that can represented, like: Stealth being Hexproof, also applying to combat declaration "Elusive" (not really a keyword, but recurring), being Shroud

[@Kirby950]

Elusive is a keyword now as of this current expansion year in hearthstone

[@DriffPL]

So, HS minions aren't creatures, but Magic creatures are minions? That was a confusing assymetric call.

[@thejackscraft3472]

It works if each player is viewing the game through the rules of what they're playing. HS minions don't have the "Creature" type, so they're non-creature spells, but mtg creatures on the board fit the HS definition of a "Minion" so they count as such for cards that look for them.

[@TheMrCarnification]

It feels weird to call them spells because they arent spells by hearthstone rules

[@thejackscraft3472]

@@TheMrCarnification It mostly depends on which rule set you're coming from. from a MtG players perspective, it makes perfect sense for them to be spells, since they go through the process that would designate them as such in the MtG rules.

[@TheMrCarnification]

@@thejackscraft3472 i see

[@NerfRyze]

Really fantastic quality in this video on top of a really fun idea, hope to see more like this! I would say the best decks of each game in their entire history VS one another but im afraid the HS deck would lose before they got to even play

[@qut0n]

0:06 No I would not buy heartstone cards from cardmarket. I would buy some Sorcery cards though.

[@sethb3090]

I need to get my hands on some of those, my LGS didn't get any

[@qut0n]

@@sethb3090 I hope you do find a way! It is a fantastic game with truly amazing art

[@Umicron_]

Fun video, slight issue with the way the totems were done. So totems from your hero power always pick one that isn't already on the field FROM YOUR HERO POWER. Very small thing but the weapons totem is always fully random meaning you can get duplicates and stuff

[@willcorff]

Magic vs Yugio vs Pokémon vs Heartstone would be an insane game

[@leopardbunny]

As funny as that would be, I feel like YuGiOh would win hands-down. Most YuGiOh games apparently end in 2-3 turns TOTAL, whereas most other games usually have at least a few turns for each player. The lack of a life system really makes a difference. That said, it would be so funny to see another game go up against a Pokemon deck, given that the other games don't have prize cards and so can only win by knocking out all opposing Pokemon or milling them, Pokemon have life and damage in the double digits, and they win by simply killing six creatures/minions.

[@Jocken333]

4 player commander game like this

[@leopardbunny]

Wait. Would a Pokemon deck simply be unable to win if the opponent never plays creatures?

[@cpugwash7085]

They did do Magic v YuGiOh a while back. Turns out Chalice of the void is *ever so slightly* broken in the matchup. ;)

[@Aigis31]

​@@leopardbunny You're thinking too big. Yugioh would win in 1:1 conversions because they have 8000 Life Points lmao. Even a Kuriboh threatens to OTK Hearthstone & Magic by virtue of having 300 ATK

[@zwarrior1983]

Any rapid show and tell deck or mill deck would carve these heartstone decks out

[@Zanyrage]

If no creatures had flying in the hearthstone deck, how did he target your thopter?

[@Ardell_Drelzexian]

How did his card gain indestructible if it was already tapped?

[@yoggalo1766]

​@@Ardell_Drelzexianyou can activate the ability again even if it's tapped, "tap it" is written after the : symbol, therefore it's not the cost/requirement to activate the ability but its effect.

[@juliandacosta6841]

​​@@Ardell_Drelzexiangaining indestructible is part of the effect. You can give it indestructible and tap it multiple times, but it doesn't do anything unless the creature untaps or loses indestructible before the next turn.

[@ulyssessanchez2328]

Yooo I love this idea Also love how Torlaf "Rotated" his board, it made it so visually appealing Not a fan of Blizzard anymore but this game was my life blood before I joined MTG back in '22

[@dagrox2562]

Upon realization that Counterspell and Force Of Will are not a concern in Hearthstone, I want to see you guys do some busted legacy combo deck vs hearthstone and see how that goes.

[@hintofinsanity]

yeah playing a okish White creature based deck feels like playing with both hands tied behind your back.

[@thejackscraft3472]

they actually mention in some comment chains that they chose this deck to provide interesting games, since stronger mtg decks would thrash any hs deck without any real trouble.

[@hintofinsanity]

@@thejackscraft3472 That's the thing though, they didn't really make it interesting. They chose a magic deck that has very little interaction with your opponent, whose only gameplan was a very flimsy combo backup plan since the deck's normal gameplan is countered very hard by Hearthstone's normal combat rules.

[@thejackscraft3472]

@@hintofinsanity it's much more interesting than the alternative, where the magic deck just steamrolls the hearthstone deck, which doesn't get to do anything. basically any other color (and a fair number of other white decks) would stomp a hearthstone deck into the ground with little effort, and the hearthstone deck couldn't really do much to stop it. it mostly comes down to the fact that magic is designed around your opponent being able to interact with your stuff at instant speed, while hearthstone isn't.

[@vyor8837]

@@thejackscraft3472 Eh, a Green token or big creature deck could have been interesting and would be more fair. The HS deck would just have to win before turn like 4 or 5.

[@ritasonka330]

Okay, Hearthstone minions should really count as mtg creatures. They are definitely in the spirit of creaturehood. On the flipside, though, how does a kobold librarian attack a flying creature? I guess you're treating all Hearthstone attacks like the "fight" keyword? This is the first of these where I think crossplaying the two systems could actually be fun with a few rules.

[@Rocknoob49]

little bit confusing that hearthstone rules were kinda used on both sides here? Like the totems "aren't Creatures" but also the minions can target attacks to creatures instead of MtG blocking rules despite the creatures not being minions

[@thejackscraft3472]

the difference is that sentinel looks at a spell and checks if it has the card type "Creature" which minions don't, but things like the starfish look for a set of parameters named "Minion", which mtg creatures fit. for the attacking and blocking I'm not sure what they were doing exactly, but I would think it would work where the attackers rules were the ones a phase goes by.

[@RPGeater]

I don't know if someone noticed, but Thoralf's reference to Warcraft 3 was hilarious. For those who didn't notice, it's the last thing he says and it's a reference to Demon Hunter and Dreadlord funny voicelines

[@jurgnobs1308]

this Hearthstone player seems great, he should try MTG

[@sunbleachedangel]

It is in fact the best hearthstone deck in the Wild format (has all expansions) and has been for like quite a few years now, give or take A few things: Carving Chisel summons a random basic totem, it doesn't care what you have already, unlike the hero power

[@TheLefty5o2]

I dont play mtg, so im a bit confused about the interaction @11:50. The card text says to tap the creature to use its effect that lasts only one turn, but it is already tapped. So should it have not been able to use it making it destructable?

[@CardmarketMagic]

If a creature is already tapped, it cannot tap as a cost to an ability. But when tapping is an effect (like in this case) you can always tap an already tapped creature as it does not check to see if the creature is already tapped :)

[@TheLefty5o2]

Ah, I see. Thank you. I understood it as a cost to activate, not an effect of it activating.

[@francislelievre5172]

this is my favourite series of M:tG comparisons.

[@teunfish9189]

Best pauper deck when?😢

[@CardmarketMagic]

We filmed it this last weekend. We are traveling to Paupergeddon right now but as soon as we are back I will start editing them and they should start releasing in 1-2 weeks :)

[@pierrecourtois5167]

Damn this is the perfect kind of videos to get a collab with Rarran

[@sdsd-f7k]

in what world is warlock the worst hero power in hearthstone. i always thought it was steady second best since demon hunter released

[@masterofshadowmaos1170]

I actually a hearthstone player and I LOVE to see more of the content like this

[@canned3880]

The weakest yugioh deck would demolish these

[@mr.babylegs537]

Wow who guessed that have a 400/400 on turn 1 is op

[@destroyahdestroyah9584]

They tried it and the magic deck won

[@Brainzofrock]

@@destroyahdestroyah9584twice

[@vyor8837]

@@destroyahdestroyah9584 counterspell is very good.

[@robertomacetti7069]

i always dread the hypotetical scenario of tracking heartston shenanigans on paper but holy cow i underestimated the commitment required

[@jorgecabrera3694]

Imagine if they did discover

[@jeromephelps5959]

Now we need Pokemon

[@eddiepeach3975]

What's the wind condition Magic: The Gathering x Pokemon? MTG player takes 6 prizes? Pokemon player KOs six creatures?

[@hypercube34]

@@eddiepeach3975 Assuming you play by the rules of your game on your turn, the Pokémon player would need to KO six enemy creatures. The MTG player would either need an alternate win condition (because they can't win with damage if there's no enemy life total), or get rid of each enemy Pokémon in play. (causing the Pokémon player to lose at the start of their turn)

[@CardmarketMagic]

I considered it but then realized that, given how the two games work for different Wisconsin it would be too easy to simply fill the magic deck with removal spells and KO 6 Pokémon. Maybe one day I'll find a way to solve the wincon disparity issue 🤷‍♂️

[@13thHourCinema]

I've never played Hearthstone, and I have no idea who Thoralf is, but gosh darn is he just a nice, enjoyable guy to watch play. Clearly describes his actions, doesn't get take the game too seriously, and keeps his sense of humor throughout. 10/10 content creator.

[@chromdraco]

15:55 Ornithopter has flying

[@homebrewed]

I ran paper hearthstone at Blizzcon one year for a pre-con event before it is suuuper interesting...love the video! I remember trying to figure out everything needed to represent the game state so this was a bit of a nostalgia trip. I still have the tokens I used for effects kicking around somewhere I think (I'll share a photo on Twitter if I do). There was maybe a few things I would of changed interaction wise but it's very tough when deciding how things work I'm sure. Super smart sideboards ;)

[@muchluck7981]

I dare you to try and win against a vanguard deck. It will be very interesting to see how you overcome the total power of vanguard since the unit is the player. No card in magic can hit a unit hard so maybe mulligan strategies may be the play

[@shieldgenerator7]

There's also poison decks

[@godfreyofbouillon966]

what about milling or cards that straight up win you the game if conditions are met, like say Battle of Wits.

[@shieldgenerator7]

@@godfreyofbouillon966making a deck around Battle of Wits is a challenge in itself

[@muchluck7981]

@@godfreyofbouillon966 in vanguard you lose if you have no deck so milling can work. but it will have to be quick since if you start second in vanguard, you get to attack immediately and unlike other card games, you can attack with all your units

[@muchluck7981]

@@shieldgenerator7 in vanguard, you have to bypass the power of the vanguard in order to take a hit. so depending on how they word it, guarding will just stop poison outright unless you run something like blighted agent

[@thygamerguy]

Shoutouts to the card market team always providing awesome content was very innovative and imaginative ideas