Catholic Unscripted 19 GAYS AND GERMANS YT

[@sandraelder1101]

I’d like to see Pope Francis give them an ultimatum: reject the “blessing” or be replaced. He owes it to the German people to ensure they have faithful shepherds.

[@tolkienlewis6887]

Unfortunately I'm sure he will not say a word.

[@sandraelder1101]

@@tolkienlewis6887 Time will tell. Pentecost is coming. Who knows what the Holy Spirit will do…

[@kevinkelly2162]

@@sandraelder1101 Come upon a virgin probably..........

[@paulmccarney6080]

I never fail to be uplifted by these conversations and the Peter Kreeft passage read by Katherine at the end really touched me as my daughter lost a little one last week. God bless you all.

[@catholicunscripted]

I’m sorry to hear that Paul. Prayers for you and your family. It really is a beautiful passage in an equally beautiful book ‘before I go’ by Peter Kreeft🙏 thank you for taking the time to comment, it is appreciated

[@imeldatobin7243]

Very sad. God's ways are nout our ways.

[@nml5802]

So sorry for the loss of your daughter’s child and for your sorrow God bless 🙏

[@ugo4141]

Thank you for this discussion and for upholding the Gospel of Jesus Christ

[@catholicunscripted]

Thank you for your encouragement 🙏

[@dansaber4427]

You can be LGBT and Catholic 👨‍❤️‍👨

[@dansaber4427]

@@shortferal those who know God know I can do nothing but God be in me. Therefore those who hear me hear not me but my God in me that speaks through me. Jesus said we would do greater things and behold truth has never seen a greater Victory in what I've said.

[@dansaber4427]

@@shortferal so you know good and evil as God. It sounds like you've been deceived by the enemy. What did knowing good and evil do for Adam and Eve? Was it life or death?

[@tolkienlewis6887]

I live in Germany. It is unbelievably depressing to see how faith has crumbled. Our obligatory Church tax funds the synodal path currently to the tune of 6 million euros. Should I refuse to pay this tax I am barred from the sacraments and even from having a Catholic burial.

[@groggy8369]

Another great episode. Catholic Unscripted is so valuable.

[@catholicunscripted]

Thank you 🙏

[@michelleferguson5580]

Thank you. Very good. Yes, the tension between the Christian call to defend the marginalized and the call to Holiness is at the heart of the issue.

[@helendeacon7637]

Thank you. Such an important conversation. God bless each of you. It's a battle , we know the outcome of. Sincere Christians need to persevere. The points on holiness are so crucial. Thank you - pray on and endure.

[@catholicunscripted]

Thank you 🙏

[@jimkeating5610]

Well said, all of you, I can't articulate as well as you do but thank you for saying it, in Mark's words. I agree Amen. Speaking of Peter Kreeft, I heard him quote Thomas Aquinas "We deny the carnal joy in order to experience spiritual joy (or word's to that effect.). We are being asked to deny something in order to recieve something better. Keep up the good work God bless you all.

[@zita-lein]

Katherine, I love your point about Augustine and Jerome weren’t called saints at the time, but they were just living out their calling, and we might be looking at St. Calvin now, but just not know it. And any number of saints in the making. Great insight! You do a good job. I wish the guys wouldn’t drone on so much and would be better about sharing the floor. I love them both, but! ❤

[@catholicunscripted]

Thank you Zita-lein 🙏

[@neilchatfield4928]

Theology of the body is one of the most profound teaching of the modern era - it is the language we need now

[@Bob.W.]

As bad as our US bishops are, the English ones seem really spineless. And I doubt some choir members complained about the Enoch Powell thing.

[@raphaelamor]

Great conversation, but I believe you are making these questions, especially on the situation in Germany, too complicated. Quite simply, 9 out of 10 German bishops and at the very least 90% of Priests are NOT actually believers. I am not being polemic here. The German Catholic Church is more similar to the Anglican Church than too the rest of the Catholic Church. The Bishops are state employees (they have to swear on the constitution of their state before they are allowed to be ordained). I have lived in Germany, Austria and Switzerland for the last 30+ years and can truly say that there are very few priests or bishops that believe that the Christian God actually exists, or that Jesus - if he is an actual historical figure - was divine.

[@jackieharper5520]

When I stand back and look at the Catholic Church today....and I'm a Convert of 25 years now.....I can't help.thinking that it resembles a home ..where the parents have gone on a 6 month cruise and left young children in charge of themselves and the running of the household...... Surely....we need Francis to stand up and have the courage of his convictions....... Stand up Francis for what you believe in....even if you appear to stand alone.....

[@chridessaohagan576]

God Bless the three of you! Thank you so much. Christ Our King Thy Kingdom Come!!! 🙏 St Augustine amd St Joan of Arc ora pro nobis.

[@DownBerkshireBorders]

Thank you and God bless you for your good work. Caritas in veritate et veritas in caritate

[@stevenstevenson6343]

Great conversation guys. Around the 26 minute mark, Mark said National Catholic Register but I think he meant National Catholic Reporter that was told to drop Catholic from its name by US Bishops. I know this was just a slip of the tongue but just in case anyone was muddled. The analysis is great from Mark and you all so sorry my comment is focusing on a minor detail.

[@zita-lein]

If I’m not mistaken, the NC Reporter is the publication that Fr. Z called “the fish wrap.”

[@hazchemel]

Lol. Now if the channel had it's own .... pinned comment I think its called, and appears at the top of the comments section ..... would remove our hesitation in making a purely technical comment, neither personal nor philosophical.

[@marklambert5232]

@@zita-lein yes that's it!

[@marklambert5232]

Yes so sorry! I've always found it strange that the two publications have such similar names!

[@katherinehales1074]

Thank you all for your conversation, I am so very concerned about all the Christian churches. Will Pope Francis take action in this respect?

[@deaconpaulsandersonocds4103]

Maybe you could post that quote at the end in the text Katherine. There are a lot of people could benefit from that.

[@christianunity9253]

Thank you for this.

[@groblerful]

For once Pope Francis said something clearly. "The Church can not bless sin".

[@hazchemel]

Thank you Trinity trio. Reflecting on the contrary radically opposite beliefs espoused in church teachings here and state teachings there, made me realise that it has always been so. And yet clearly, our formerly Christian politeia and our politeia today are very un-alike. Had it been otherwise, if it had been the case that society and Christianity were close/similar to some significant degree, then the protestant belief that monk, nun, hermit, desert father, desert mystic/saint/disciple are an unnecessary and bad idea would have some merit. Real events transpiring over time - what actually happens however, debunk their theory which is revealed to be simply a desire justified by a few holy bible quotes. Why then, were the saints and prophets from the very beginning of records and ever since, in Christendom as with Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and many others, separating themselves from their parent society? Where is it moreover, that God appears before their eyes? Surely revelation and communion occur in the wilderness, remote from society. The desolation of the monasteries, the sacri-clastic sacking of Holy Mother Church silences song chant and prayer, snuffs candlelight incense, and refers the troubled soul back to amusement, is only radical cultural amputation and "repurposing". And the abysmal ripples widen throughout the dimensions of human life ..... much could be said and therefore just in brief example :- remove/destroy the Icon from the family and from the person and replace with seascape/tree/cat dog/somebody known or unknown.

[@tomv4408]

Re the comment at 15:23 about not valuing the procreative end of marriage, I don't think that's new, nor about offending anyone. It's been the case for half a century at least with the promotion of contraception and abortion. These things paved the way for redefintion of marriage.

[@wolemai]

I am a former Anglican priest, who years ago joined the Catholic Church with my family. I was so excited about the Ordinariate - in fact my name had been on the original list of clergy from America that was sent to Rome a long time ago to be received into the Catholic Church and ordained as Catholic priests. I really thought that the Ordinariate could be a blessing for the whole Catholic Church. However, if they are not prepared to stand up for ALL Catholic moral teaching, and especially the evil homosexual movement that is now so powerful in our modern world, then I am starting to distance myself from the Ordinariate and turn more and more towards the Latin Mass people (NOT the SSPX!). I am so disappointed that the Ordinariate is failing to be fully Catholic, and I know that if it fails on just ONE Catholic doctrine then it will eventually fail to be Catholic at all.

[@michaeljhoey1]

This is all very sad as the Ordinariate is really a wonderful gift from Pope Benedict as it preserves the link with authentic pre-Reformation English Catholicism. I think at present there is a fear that under this pontificate there are forces in play that would love to shut it down. In consequence most Ordinariate priests are very reluctant to rock the boat on this issue. But it is bringing terrible publicity for the Ordinariate in the face of which he Ordinary seems to be burying his head in the sand. Gavin is not making himself very popular in Catholic circles but we really need somebody to make a stand.

[@michelleferguson5580]

All Christian marriage service liturgies (that I am familiar with...) highlight the same three points re. purpose of the consecration of marriage vows. 1. Procreation 2. Hallowing/regulating sexual urges/instincts 3. Mutual comfort/support of spouses.

[@nickstone3113]

I am Greek Orthodox and I thank you for all you say. We are seeing the same attack directed at us, via the Greek Orthodox world as we are most open to the west of the Orthodox . The Phanar ( Constantinople) is their chosen vehicle as in Ukraine. You would smile because they are in the early days with much ' marginalised ' language with a lot of ground to catch up on. The times are crucial.

[@chuckyarla6642]

Where can I find that Peter Kreeft poem? Been looking on the Internet but no luck. What's the book please?

[@catholicunscripted]

It’s in a book called ‘Before I go, letters to our children about what really matters’

[@chuckyarla6642]

@@catholicunscripted Thank you. Much appreciated

[@sandraelder1101]

Why do they need unbelieving singers to create beautiful music? Aren’t there enough Catholic singers in the area at least for major feast days? If not, surely less-polished but sincere, worshipful amateurs would be even better. My cathedral has a simple parish choir for weekend masses and a diocesan-wide choir to do more challenging music for major liturgies such as ordinations. All of us are practicing Catholics. When we do use non-Catholic professional musicians, they simply do their jobs and play. Their personal opinions about what’s said and done during the liturgy are irrelevant. If some of these choristers are non-believers, they should be quite used to hearing things they don’t believe in, basically every Sunday? What’s the difference?

[@russ254]

a church that chooses form over substance, and cowardice over faith

[@wolemai]

For a long time the major choirs in the Church of England have been largely comprised of professional (i.e. paid) singers, who may be either Catholic, Protestant, Atheist or anything at all. I always thought this was a dangerous system, and not one to promote a deeper spirituality within the Church during worship. It seems that the Ordinariate may have inherited that custom and brought it into some Catholic churches.

[@borderlands6606]

Gavin raises a serious point about the role of professional choirs, that goes to the heart of many issues in the church today. There is no doubt that the beauty of classically sung liturgy, in surroundings of great sacred art and architecture, are the reasons why a TV producer would chose such a location for religious programming. Few of us are unmoved by Allegri's Miserere at Easter, performed by those with the skill to do so. Speaking as someone who is easily seduced by beauty in any form, beauty can be a double-edged sword and it has proved to be so in Calvin's case.

[@sandraelder1101]

@@borderlands6606 My question is, are there not enough Catholic singers capable of singing this same repertoire in that area? They can be paid or unpaid. If not locally, they could widen the field of search for major liturgies such as those to be filmed. Catholic music majors at local colleges, for instance, would welcome the money.

[@borderlands6606]

@@sandraelder1101 It used to be the case that teaching sisters who typically ran the music class of Catholic junior schools, would pick children with singing ability for the church choir. They accompanied and fed into the adult choir, creating a virtuous circle of singing talent for Mass. The only time I've observed a similar situation, is in TLM and oratories. With respect to the exceptions, singing in Catholic churches general consists of bland tunes, poorly sung by those with little enthusiasm to be heard. Given the wealth of musical heritage I have no idea why this should be so. My guess is there's no time in the national curriculum for music, and parents only attend Mass when their children are to perform. Either way, you are correct that the church should nurture such talent in house, not farm it our to those who see the liturgy in exclusively performative terms.

[@Bob.W.]

Thx folks.

[@deaconpaulsandersonocds4103]

Always enjoy your conversations. The woke evils infecting the world will be a source of true eccumenism. Truth is the foundation and the only foundation of true eccumenism. The stronger these evil become, all the stronger will the reaction of true christians be against it... we will discover who the real christians are. Perhaps, how few there are... few they may be... but strong and more powerful than they may appear.

[@johnfrancis4401]

This is a test for the Pope. We should pray that St Michael the Archangel thrusts down to hell wicked spirits to hell that plague German bishops.

[@windowsoflife]

It was the San Francisco men’s gay choir

[@johnjon1823]

I read the title as: 19 gays and Germans. Which I have to say, seemed like a low number. Surely they are at least 2 pachamamas short of 21 needed for blackjack or maybe the black arts?

[@katladyfromtheNetherlands]

I wish peoople wouldnt say its so difficult to be holy. And its called fawning when people people-please .

[@MsHburnett]

I Agree

[@Canisius19]

The entire Church in Germany needs to placed under interdict

[@imeldatobin7243]

my comment was removed...was it something I said??

[@mrbaker7443]

Presumably it was if it was your comment 😉

[@marklambert5232]

No Imelda your comment was on this video but on my profile - it's still there!

[@imeldatobin7243]

@@marklambert5232 Thank you, Mark. This is the second time I made that error.

[@Mark_Dyer1]

"There is a direct line between the 'gay-ification' of society and the sexualisation of children" [12:00 - Gavin]. It is, frankly, wicked statements like this which prevent there being any hope of dialogue or discussion on the churches' current obsession: what two adult men who love one another get up to in order to 'consummate' their love. Mark, you already know I'm a seventy-year-old man, who has been privileged to share forty years with a seventy-six-year-old, gentle, atheist; who knows my belief in Jesus of Nazareth. Unfortunately, owing to the 'woke' on one side, and the 'scriptural literalists' (conservatives? traditionalists?) on the other, it is now essential for those of us who follow Jesus in simple faith - lacking in such certitude as believing we have 'THE' truth - to just read our scriptures, in the light of wisdom being written about our scriptures, today. All is 'scripture'. Think back to 'THE' science over the past three years: and the dangers of claiming to possess THE truth ought to be obvious. This is where the Anglican 'trinity' of SCRIPTURE, TRADITION and REASON is helpful for revealing the God who was in Jesus in the contemporary context. And, if you consider that our contemporary concept of a 'creator God' is no different to that held by people two thousand years ago, in terms of awesomeness, such that the kerygma of Jesus, a charismatic eschatological teacher, requires no refinement for today, then that is - in Katherine's expression - "problematic". With regard to "blessings": only GOD blesses: all the Christian can do is to ask for blessing. This is fortunate for a Christian; because we need no 'bishops, presbyters, or deacons' in order to ask. Of course, it is the 'public' form of blessing which the Church Universal has withheld from so many: but is this really much of a deprivation? Mark, how is your view of Christian marriage applicable to the elderly couple, beyond child-creating, who marry late in life? How is it applicable to young couples who are not - naturally - able to conceive? What is your view of 'Petri-dish' babies? Your doctrine of 'Christian marriage' MUST be consistent and 'scriptural'.

[@borderlands6606]

With respect, you are conflating a number of competing realities. If you are confident in "your truth", comprised of emotional, physical and psychological factors that are beyond compromise, you do not require the church to underwrite it. There are Christian denominations that will service your requirements, without insisting that those who will not and never can must also succumb to your personal imperatives.

[@Mark_Dyer1]

@@borderlands6606 Have you read what I have written about 'truth' above? I do not believe that 'certitude' has any role to play in 'truth', as it applies to faith. Hope is the best we can achieve. But you are absolutely correct that I "do not require the Church to underwrite" my life, as a human being; and a child of God. As with all those graves of 'unknown soldiers' on the Western Front, I will be content to die, "known unto God", and trusting in him. The purposes of God as vastly greater than the creation of the Roman Catholic Church.

[@borderlands6606]

@@Mark_Dyer1 What you have written reads like relativism, whether you intended it to or not: truth can never be certain, hope is the best we have, therefore we muddle along accepting the primacy of our instincts in moral guidance. The teaching of the church fathers is that we don't have to muddle, we have the Holy Spirit as companion. This is a testable hypothesis, because every time we bend, subvert or abandon the Word of God we pay a price, personally, societally and culturally. It was true in the Old Testament and it's true in the earthly utopias on offer today.

[@Mark_Dyer1]

@@borderlands6606 We can all claim to have the (political) 'Holy Spirit' in harmony with our views: especiually when that Spirit is only able to act within the scritures an formularies of the Church Universal. Personally, I see the Spirit at work BEYOND the Church today: and that would be in accord with the scriptural picture of the CREATOR God of Israel.

[@DIBBY40]

​@@borderlands6606 What could be more of an earthly utopia than a group of men claiming that they alone hear from God ? And can tell us how we must order our lives.

[@cocasal001]

in Genesis, the Bible describes that God made man and woman in his own nature. God’s nature, in marriage, is more completely reflected in the relationship between man and woman. In Isaiah, God defines his relationship to his people, Israel, and, in the letters of St. Paul, to his church as a marital relationship between a man, God, and his bride. God’s nature and relationship to his bride is a very gender specific, male- female relationship. Our genders are not a matter of choice, but a reflection of God’s will, plan, and purpose in his divine plan. To deny our gender is to deny God, his will, his plan his purpose.

[@arthurhallett-west5145]

So why are they evil? You all seem to be presuming the conclusion you purport to derive!

[@RuneRelic]

The time before contraception, did not eradicate unwanted births and unwanted children. Foster homes were/are a thing. Many if not all of those fostered children, grow up psychologically damaged, wondering who their parents are and why they were abandoned. There is also a history of abuse within such foster homes, for those unwanted children that were out of sight and out of mind, that was/is fertile ground for their predators. Child trafficking is now on industrial scale as a direct conequence, some say exactly because contraception did not work as intended. All of that was/is regardless of the church telling them what they should or should not do (rhetoric is not action). Rebellious teenagers are rebellious...who knew...unless you intend to keep boys/men and girls/women isolated...and then have some kind of arranged marriage to replace the courting that wont take place (good luck with the public accepting that after spending centuries trying to end it, after treating women as family bargaining chips instead). So i dont see that argument as solving the real problem and the real consequences, merely trying to brush it under the carpet, wag fingers at it virtue signalling style, or living in a world of ideological denial, so as 'not' to solve the problems that existed. As with most such dilemmas, it is often a case of which consequences are the lesser of two evils, rather than good vs evil. A little less evil day by day, is still a step in the right direction, along the road to redemption.

[@jjmthree]

Thank God this is happening. Roman Catholics need to wake up and convert to the one true church of Orthodoxy. Leave the church of Sin behind.

[@thomasscott2553]

ORTHODOXY IS NOT ONE.

[@neilchatfield4928]

The difficulty you have Gavin is that there no evidence that Calvin was cancelled because of a gay cabal in the choir. We don’t even know if the person/s who objected was gay. Even if it was a person who is same sex attracted are not defined by being gay - gay people can be interested in politics and have various opinions - look at some of the GB News presenters. To be clear the choir member\s refusal to sing was for the shoot of that program only and not a threat to never sing again at Warwick Street. The charitable thing is to accept that it was for the reasons said and not try to colour it otherwise. GB News is wrongly stereotyped as a right wing news outlet and Calvin is a controversial figure - I think he is brilliant. It is then in the addressing of the reasons given that can help us decide on the wisdom or otherwise of the cancellation. If Calvin was filming a program that was a political commentary then the decision might have carried more weight. However, it was a piece about the resurrection which is a different category to any political views Calvin might have and therefore in my considered opinion the cancellation was wrong and unwise. I repeat that many in the Church are behaving like those in an abusive relationship who don’t want a target on their back and be next in line from a Pope who seems spiteful and vindictive with those who upset him. Finally it difficult however hard you have tried not to make your comments seem like a personal opportunity to get a Mgr Keith especially when both of you are accusing each other of being dishonest. It’s a terrible shame as we are really all on the same side here and I love what you do and the often considered way you speak. Prayers

[@michaeljhoey1]

Very helpful comment, Fr Neil. It is indeed very sad that we have two prominent orthodox Catholiics effectively accusing each other of untruthfulness. I believe Mgr Keith's decision to cancel Calvin to have been a serious error and have told him so in no uncertain terms. It has been a PR disaster for the Ordinariate as the viewing figures and comments on Gavin's video reveal. On the other hand there is room for charity all round. We may not be aware of all the pressure on the Ordinariate at this time. Gavin should have checked with Fr Keith before announcing the gay chorister version of events and Keith should IMHO apologise to Calvin and stop burying his head in the sand.