JOKER 2 Folie a Deux - Why THAT Ending Works - Spoiler Review

The Joker 2 has one of the more divisive endings of ANY comic book movie. But I personally think the ending of Folie A Deux is fitting to cement this, and the first Joker as.. not "comic book movies". And I think I like that about them. Diving into my FULL SPOILER REVIEW of Joker: Folie A Deux discussing the entirety of the film, (and it's performances from Joaquin Pheonix and Lady Gaga) but mainly focusing on that bold third act.
Also acknowledging that Joker wouldn't have likely gotten made as a Taxi Driver Martin Scorsese esque take on a generic failed comedian, and a lavish, practical set, enormous, vaudevillian musical wouldn't have gotten made In 2024 without "Joker" and "Harley Quinn" in it.
I don't think Todd Philipps decision to leave DC after this was a coincidence. I would have loved to seen a DC Black Label of sorts but I'm not sure this was ever the way to bring that about.
Subscribe to this page for Comic Book and Movie thoughts, reviews, and News! You likely know me from all corners of the internet - The Reel Rejects, Collider, Nerdist, Rotten Tomatoes, Schmoedown, The Big Thing, Capes and Cowls, FanExpo, MegaCon and more! I'ts time I start building my own up.
FOLLOW FOR SO MUCH MORE:
www.youtube.co...
Joker: Folie à Deux[a] is a 2024 American musical psychological thriller film directed by Todd Phillips from a screenplay he co-wrote with Scott Silver. Loosely based on DC Comics characters, it is the sequel to Joker (2019) and stars Joaquin Phoenix reprising his role as the titular character, with Lady Gaga joining as his love interest Harley Quinn. Zazie Beetz, Leigh Gill, and Sharon Washington also reprise their roles from the previous film, while Brendan Gleeson, Catherine Keener, Steve Coogan, and Harry Lawtey join the cast. It is produced by Warner Bros. Pictures and DC Studios in association with Joint Effort.
Joker was conceived as a standalone film, although Warner Bros. intended the film to launch a DC Black film series. Phillips expressed interest in making a sequel. The sequel entered development in June 2022, with Gaga and Beetz joining later that year. Principal photography took place in New York City, Los Angeles, and Belleville, New Jersey, from December 2022 to April 2023.
Joker: Folie à Deux premiered at the 81st Venice International Film Festival on September 4, 2024,[7] and was released in the United States on October 4, 2024. It received generally negative reviews from critics and audiences.
!!! SUBSCRIBE:
!!! Twitter: / coyjandreau
!!! Instagram: / coyjandreau
!!! / coyjandreau
SUPPORT:
!!! STREAMLABS: Streamlabs.com...
!!! PATREON: / coyjandreau
!!! Venmo : Coy-Jandreau
#Joker #joker2 #jokerfolieadeux #joaquinphoenix #joaquinphoenixjoker #ladygaga #gaga #harleyquinn #leequinn #harleenquinzell #toddphillips #warnerbros #dccomics #dceu #dcu #coyjandreau #spoiler #spoilerreview #spoilers #thoughts #reaction #Batman

[@nellcbk7963]

I really liked the message of this movie. It's even deeper than the original. A human is more important than any symbol, any idea. The ending was really great. It's the most prosaic ending to this story. That was like: screw you with your fan service and pop culture, every tragedy ends in tragedy, not in a dumb comic, cuz that's life, kids. I think fans of violence and bloody madness forgot that this story was always about a mentally ill man, not about a mad villain. And this rude communicating with the Joker's loyal audience was brazen and bold. Todd Phillips wanted to offend you, he offended you. Anyways, that was just a joke, you wouldn't get

[@HonkHonkler]

And now will flop and the mainstream disagrees with you, womp womp lol,

[@teddybear8348]

@@HonkHonkler who give a fuck about mainstream ?most pepole there dont even have🧠

[@PerfectPanels9]

Yeah, no. 😂

[@JarodJoseph]

Just stop.

[@PerfectPanels9]

@@JarodJoseph Right, dude thought he did something at the end there💀

[@CocoCastro92]

Thank you, i was feeling a little lonely with this one haha I appreciate that you didn't jump on the hate train, and analyze the movie. This is definitely not the joker that people want, they are Lee, looking for someone to idolize, to justify their own violence, but they don't care about Arthur, they abandoned him, just like Lee did.

[@CoyJandreau]

Yup yup! Glad to share these tempestuous waters

[@EagerCompass-mm7gj]

I enjoyed it too! People leaving the courthouse is the direct reflection of fans of The Joker hating on this movie. If they felt this way i think the movie has made its point, albeit a bittersweet one

[@Bingchilling11]

Beautiful ending fr

[@ManuKULU]

Joker is a villain... we want to see him be a villain... you sound like a rotten tomatoes critic 😂

[@mandem3426]

Bingo

[@Blue_Grass_Girl]

What I find most interesting about the discussion at this point is it really cements that we have gone from "I did not like something" simply meaning "I did not like it" to concluding "therefore it must be bad". What happened to "oh this just wasn't for me" and moving on with our lives? People seem to be offended at outrageous levels because they did not like a film.

[@CoyJandreau]

It’s exhausting

[@evieblue959]

Here's my weird take -- I think it was bad, AND I love it. It's like Love Never Dies to me: objectively flawed and messy but just so audacious that it's surprisingly entertaining and I have to respect it.

[@ThatGuy-vf1wj]

The irony in all of this is that comic books are derived from Greek tragedies. And now you have a movie which does this genre justice storywise, and you have people left and right crying that their favorite psychopath doesn't get the happy ending he deserves. What a weird upside down world we live in.

[@erikinmanhattan7775]

but this was NOT THE REAL JOKER. that is the actual message. I dont get why people are crying over a FAKE JOKER getting shanked. Heath Ledger died portraying the complex Joker character, and this lowlife shooter Murray is getting all these fans even though he is just a killer and not worthy of the TITLE of JOKER. it is pathetic. This Fake Joker had to be put down , and in the end we see the CHOSEN ONE who will actually succeed at being THE JOKER, a fantastik ending.

[@immortallegaciagamingteam9301]

Exactly what I feel, the reviews are literally Joker at trial, just as in the movie.

[@amasvodka]

100% agreed.

[@erikinmanhattan7775]

🐱don't yu see? the reason so many loved this version is because of his Human nature that people could relate to. He was an ANti-Hero type Joker. Granted the Real Joker is insane and not even Human , but a True Villain who owned his own Insanity and chaos and used it as a tool to accomplish his Mad goals. Whereas this ANti-Hero Joker got ruled by chaos and insanity and ultimately self destructed. SUre he was weak but he was Human and that is what people loved about him....

[@erikinmanhattan7775]

🤡well I guess I see your point but still, this Arthur Joker would not be worthy of either going up against Batman OR fighting Beside him so he does not matter, just another shooter getting snuffed out by his own inner chaos...

[@Humanipathic]

I actually loved it. He always felt like Joker but not quite like Joker, he isn't the agent of chaos and disorder who is a terrorist/mastermind/crime boss for sake of a msg/laughs or Batman. And never was going to be. Joker isn’t a tragic/sympathetic-emo reactionary + can ya see a 70 yr old Arthur fighting Batman? Bruce is a kid. Arthur served as the proto / inspiration w/ that ending and that Joker more of an ideology. (Also, in comics they did a 3 Joker story) I think that’s the problem w/those who have issues. Everyone had their minds made assumed he was just Joker - for me I never completely felt it. Missing a point they cannot see w/o feeling that way too. Lot more nuanced than those to just say it was a rehash of first. He didn’t feel alone anymore. Fell in love. And for him to be love starved / touch starved. Imagine how’d that make him feel and after 2 yrs he was in Arkham, he became far removed from Joker /fantasy world and his acts. As compared to who he was his whole life. And he was never loved for who he is and why it might cause a split. But we saw Different perspectives and ramifications for first. Got to hear even more testimonies how awful his mom was, endured, there wasn’t anything to build upon or develop cause he’s a version of Joker but he’s not. And never going to be. His death. Can think of it as him dying by hand of an obsessed fan betrayed on tv like Murr-ARY. But he cuts a smile, laughs to take it on - you know how monumental that would be to make a mark, for how Arthur and his killings impacted Gotham. We seen bits enough of him, that blind side makes it even more powerful. Ideology of Joker passed/embraced, til next. not a tragically doomed life Arthur was in the end. He couldn’t claim being Joker cause of awful things done to him and who he was truly at his core but got what he f******* deserved ;).. Can’t remember if it was said but how much more tragic was if visitor is Lee he was on his way to see. Oh yeah Loved Dent low key becoming Twoface

[@erikinmanhattan7775]

so true, this Murray was actually NOt The Real Joker but a Wannabe Joker who could never quite succeed at it. ANyone who actually thought him to be the Joker and who embraced this character ended up getting shanked along with him at the end of this movie lol. BUt alas, Heath Ledger can now rest in peace knowing that the complex Real JOker he died portraying, remains the ONe True Joker and this Big Fake Murray guy has been put to rest.

[@Sk8erMorris]

The scene w/ mr. puddles was soo good

[@taimanslaughter4471]

My head cannon is that the death of Joker was methaporical or was his psyche killing the victim personality of Arthur. The "psychopath" is the real Arthur and I believe that he was SA'd by the guards that night when they beat him in the washroom them assaulting him took away his individuality the real him, because before this he is developing and expressing the Joker as him even when faced with encounting his sexual trauma again he jokes to the guard if he will 'buy him a drink' but after they sa him he regress into his dual personality Arthur- The Victim in order to keep him sane in a way the Arthur personality is like his inner child as we were told in the court room he was SA'd as a child so him going through the trauma again at Arkham made him put on the persona of Arthur to feel safe. See it like this if he's damned when being the Joker (his real self) then his self defense mechanism is Arthur. I have more theories like the last scene of Harley wasn't real and perhaps even after the court was bombed that could have been his actual death bc he was the closest to the explosion and after the dust cleared, he was seemingly the only one in the court room. The guy he met with the Joker make-up outside the ruined court was the persona of Joker trying to keep him alive but Arthur ran to Harley to his old apartment which he confessed to her he hated, his defense mechanism made him attach to Harley bc if his real self The Joker hated that apartment nothing even Harley could bring him to return. I also theorize that the Harley we see in he last scene is actually dead and committed suicide in the apartment ,when Arthur declared the Joker was all an act (which isn't true, the goal of the self defense mechanism personality, Arthur Fleck- The Victim, is to keep himself in line with society my evidence is when The Victim 'died' he didn't fight the psychopath like how when faced with SA from the guards he at least retaliated and punched one. The victim didn't fight the psychopath but accepted the role society placed on him by still trying to walk to the guards even after being stabbed, Mury's last words to Joker was essentially if your are downtrodden or a victim run to cops notify them and Arthur Fleck is the one that idolized Mury while Joker is the one that pulled the trigger as he knew Mury made him weak)- I say this to say that Arthur meeting Harley again was him confront his loss of her and his Arkham "death" was the innocent part of Joker, the victim Arthur, being let go or dying by his true personality The Joker. My main evidence beside the crowd being abscence in the court is also after he confronts Harley again on the stairway the cops seemingly not only knows where he is but that he returned to the apartment, the cops wouldn't know where Arthur fled to for multiple reason including the fact there was assumed doppelgangers of Joker around Gotham dressing and wearing his make up anyone of them could have been mistaken for him so technically the cops wouldnt be able to find Arthur plus Harley rented his apartment if there's a new tenant why would he go back there so the cops behind him in that scene aren't real but is The Victim incarcerating himself by accepting not only was society sees him as but also what he believes what "he fucking deserves" I believe the psychopath that killed him was his true personality freeing Arthur from his slavery to the system and grief of lossing Harley. I would hope if there is a third movie for us to see Arthur or in this case the fully developed Joker to have the scars on his face that he carved. And for those who think the psychopath is Ledger's Joker he's not, the Gotham city in the Dark Knight is based in Chicago while the one in The Joker is said in the movie to be in New York also Thomas Wayne in the Joker looks nothing and acts nothing like the Thomas in the Nolan films unless it can be interpreted that Bruce had an idolized view of his father in the Nolan verse but that too much theory bc why would the directors of Joker 2 think that far. To conclude I believe that the psychopath that "killed" Arthur is Arthur and weither or not he died in the court bombing or is still alive Arthur Fleck- The Victim is dead. Also the movie seems heavily inspired by Fight Club and courtroom cases so you could also theory that Harley just like Marla is a representation of his Anima for those who don't know all men have a female aspect to their psychology and vice versa with all females so Harley may not have exist in the film and like Marla in Fight Club was there to guide there respective male counter parts ie Arthur and the Narrator to becoming who they really are. You could say that Harley was "born" or envolped by Arthur back as a child when he was SA'd or even when he found out he imagined his relationship with Sophie, or when Harley was fully developed when Arthur decided to killed his mother. I absolutely love this movie and just watched it an hour ago and have so many interpretation of whats happening in the film bc Arthur is an unreliable narrator. Bro literally I had the most insane epiphany when I saw people hating on the movie and then remember the last scene of the first movie they really didn't "get the joke" the joke is the people who hate the movie are no better than the fanatics that wanted Arthur to be something hes not the same as the guards that belittle and abuse Joker to further subment this I just remembered a great scene from the Joker 2 that shows when Arthur was on the phone in prison one of the guards who's keeping HIM detained asks for Arthur to autograph a book he's reading Oh my god and fuck it I might as well keeping giving examples why this good so here we go another I liked Abt this movie is how it subverts everyone who sees this movie expectations bc the first movie divided class divided those who would never like a movie confronting capitalism and the mentally ill vs those who sees themselves in the Joker and in the second movie it divides that community that loved the first movie bc those who don't like the second movie are the ones who don't get the joke from the first movie bc the joke is that people got a movie abt a broken and mentally ill man who wants to do good but the society around him reinforce that there can be any and then the second movie double downs on this by making the Joker fanatics hate Arthur bc he doesn't want to be the bad guy so it's like the elites and society wants to paint him as insane so that they can use that to further push the narrative that the lowerclass are dangerous and insane and deserve abuse from authorities or even less opportunities and then the Joker fanatics hate Arthur for not being the symbol of anarchy and destruction he is a man who wants to do good but will be crucified from both sides for expressing this it's like he became a messiah figure a kin or inspired by (narratively) to Jesus where the Jews hated him and so did the Romans and people still don't get the joke just like they all not only created the Joker but atrocious him they also try to use him to serve themselves instead of the people wanting to use the joker as a revolution to end patriarchy and create a society of fairness and utopia they would rather use him as a weapon for war it shows both sides don't want peace or a better life but the other to not have any kinda like how in Roman verses of the bible they rewrote and crafted an image of Jesus the guy killed to benefit themselves and how church did the same during the witch trials or slavery or any other atrocity even the invade of middle east after 9/11 it's never Abt peace with these type of people weither they are rich or poor they share the same mindset and so are the same and therefore both parties will only spread more hatred and division in the world instead of unity Remember when joker said "I'm an idea" so it seems some just never knew who or what Joker represents they see an maniacal clown who hates society but he's actually an symbol of anarchy an symbol that could never be a singular person why do u think we got The Three Jokers Story bc it's never one person it's people who take a role and defining it how they will instead of what it's supposed to be which is anarchist-revolution not psychopathic-pandemonium u wanted him to be the villainous spirit of vengeance (or "agent of chaos") against society when he was the hero all along an hero against apathy he struck out to society bc he was the victim along he never had help from those around him he's the messianic symbolism of the true victims of society: the damaged... No pun intended Lastly I believe that the reason why people can't understand the themes of this movie or "get the joke" bc they are just like the psychopath who killed Arthur the psychopath is the agent of chaos who even when a the villian becomes an hero akin to a messiah and wants to change for the better there are those who are apathic to unity and only want destruction even by killing the one who inspired those kinda like the Roman emperor when they killed Jesus and then enacted forgery in the bible to write the words of Jesus to better fit their agenda like think for a second why would the son of god who sees his people being tortured, abused and mistreated ask for them to turn the other cheek instead of revolting not bc he has empathy for the oppressors but bc the oppressors and advocates of them have sympathy for the oppressors that's like if Malcolm X randomly wanted people to have peaceful marchings while they are being spit at abused..wink wink Mr. I-Have-A-Dream ps. Thanks for listening to my Ted-Talk🤡

[@bobcobb3654]

I didn’t get people thinking Arthur was going to go on some hyper violent crime spree and end up a mob boss or something. He’s nearly 50, weighs 90 pounds, has no money, social skills, or connections to the criminal underworld, everyone in the city who has a TV set can identify him and call the cops, and perhaps the biggest problem; he can’t fight. Even the people he killed in the first one, the bankers were all unarmed and very drunk, his mom was a bedridden old woman, his coworker was unarmed and stabbed while offering condolences, and Murray was shot while he was sitting at a desk. He was at best a cheap shot artist. Real criminals would have torn him apart.

[@317cmrogers]

I do think with his popularity and newfound confidence by the end of the first, there is a film that could've seen something more in line of this. I would've liked to have seen that transformation into that symbol of chaos.. *Spoiler alert* ..even if they still had another person eventually takeover the actual mantle of Joker by the end

[@jamalwest7658]

See, there you go applying logic

[@GodKnowsWhatIsInHere]

I like that Arthur was not the Joker. In the first movie, the Joker persona kinda emerged independent of Arthur. Arthur killed those guys in the subway, and the city took that story (without all the context of why it happened) and ran with it, creating this character that was all about anarchy and killing the rich. But Arthur never really cared about any of that, he just wanted all the attention that the Joker was already getting. It's an interesting take on the whole "Joker is an idea/Gotham created the Joker" thing. How I see the end of Folie a Deux is that Arthur rejecting the Joker didn't matter, because the Arthur and the Joker really are two separate people-- someone else was always gonna come and embody the persona. Maybe someone demented enough to actually reshape the Joker himself? The psychopath(?) cutting his face gave me that impression, going even further than what Arthur did.

[@TonyQuinn]

I never thought about it like that, but you’re right in that Joker was basically created by the media. His fans would probably accept anyone taking on the mantle because they have a “hero” of sorts and that’s all that matters. Interesting point.

[@Eric-qi9us]

The more I think about the movie, the better it gets. It's a masterpiece. I also loved how it connects with Taxi Driver (getting shot in the guts, being a hero by accident)

[@elevenseven-yq4vu]

Only that Arthur Fleck was (briefly) a villain by circumstance.

[@rodrigoodonsalcedocisneros9266]

​@@elevenseven-yq4vuHe died a tragic (anti)hero. Him rejecting The Joker's persona was akin to him growing up and realizing his fantasy was just a coping mechanism and that he should be valued more as Arthur, not as a facade people used to escape reality (Lee was the embodiment of the fanbase for a reason).

[@elevenseven-yq4vu]

@@rodrigoodonsalcedocisneros9266 Yes, in the final act he came around.

[@louislibitz]

This film is absolutely BRILLIANT and a character study with so many levels. As I am not particularly a fan of musicals, the music is used perfectly as a device to portray Arthur’s emotions that he cannot express - as we know from the first film Arthur has music in him and an interesting device that, to me, is seamless throughout the story. There is no question this is an “Art House” film. Everything from the cinematography, performances, art design, score etc. are top notch. Shame some only seeing this at the surface level & turned off by the musical numbers. This is not THAT Joker or THE Joker, just A JOKER. “Knock, Knock? Who’s there? Arthur Fleck? Arthur Fleck who?”

[@erikinmanhattan7775]

exactly, Arthur Fleck the Joker Wannabe....a tragic story about a JOKEr Wannabe who failed miserably at being the Great VIllain known as The Joker. In the end, we see the Real JOker, but this movie was never about the Real Joker, it was about Arthur.

[@victorbottino7886]

I think my favorite thing about the movie is the way it finds a way to subtly provide a less rewarding experience while simultaneously providing musical sequences that reflect the increasing depth of Arthur’s madness.

[@Xpertfusion]

I loved what the story was doing. Joker as a concept instead of a character actually fits with Joker quite a bit. Joker very often doesn’t have much of a backstory to him so doing an adaptation where the Joker persona could attach to anyone is sort of brilliant. This movie felt like a deconstruction of the first film (which the first one is my favorite movie ever) and I love that the sequel was able to do that in a way that wasn’t ruining the first movie. It’s a brilliant look on mental illness and how society treats it. Both movies present it in different ways. Harley is meant to represent some audience members that just wants to see Joker and unfortunately don’t care as much about Arthur (as we can see from the negative reactions to Joker 2)

[@CoyJandreau]

Love to hear this. Yup yup

[@koragray4794]

This 🎯💯💯👆🏾

[@m3dkit385]

Yup. I actually enjoyed this film very much. The viewers and Gotham wanted Arthur to be a villain. But Arthur never was.

[@xscarecrowxx]

So Harley found him and fixes him

[@HonkHonkler]

And this is why all the media you like fails lol.

[@DunkeysLongLostSon]

Definitely agree with your take on this. Very refreshing to see someone get the movie and not take it as a personal attack, meeting the movie on its terms.

[@summertime_blooz]

Who else thought that Lee was going to push Arthur down the steps?

[@dice268926]

😂he would've died half way thru.. I actually walked them

[@bctalkspod]

I thought the opposite actually. When she says he's no longer joker and rejects him I thought he was going to push her down the stairs to show her he's still Joker

[@jaymendezz]

That would’ve been the PERFECT ending!

[@anubusx]

That would've been brilliant.

[@erikinmanhattan7775]

Arthur should have pushed himself down the stairs at the rate of failure he was going

[@jeremywoodfin2885]

I really interpreted the ending as his (joker) shadow finally catching up to him and finishing him off

[@anubusx]

That is a great analysis.

[@Kanoog]

It's a sad world when you have to fabricate ideas on how to make a piss poor ending seem good.

[@erikinmanhattan7775]

so true, it goes to show you that there is always someone out there who can do it better than you. You think you're good at something, then you realize you suk at it, and then you give up trying, that's when you get shanked by the guy who does it better. Arthur thought he was THE JOKER, but in the end, he was just a copycat. we were watching the movie from the POV of the copycat Joker instead of from the POV of the actual Joker who remained the Shadow in the background the whole time. Just looking down on Murray this whole time ,thinking, "man , this guy is so lame...just look at him try to be like ME".

[@jeremywoodfin2885]

@@Kanoog I get why people do not like the sequel, but my personal opinion of the first film is that the only scenes that actually represent reality (in that particular iteration of Gotham) are the two fluorescent white light-lit scenes, the one near the beginning, with him briefly seen slamming his head up against the door in the 'reservation room', and the scene at the very end, with him possibly in that same white bricked room, but now with a psychologist. If you look very closely, you can see that throughout the film all of the clocks have the exact same time on them, 11:11, implying that all of this that we have been witnessing is in fact a daydream happening inside his head. Not to sound all snooty, but I think a lot of people completely miss what might be a twist ending at the very end of the first film. I don't think that we're actually seeing a newly formed Joker at the end of that first film, I think that we are seeing a Joker who has likely been fighting Batman for years, maybe even decades, has recently discovered his arch nemesis’s true identity (before this current stint in Arkham Asylum) and is actively fanaticizing about being the one responsible for his ultimate creation and psychological damage, all this being viewed through a twisted winding journey through the Joker's mind of having society bend to his madness and rage, everyday people rising up to tear the city down (the way Heath's Joker wanted Gotham's citizens to reveal themselves as inherently evil and self-centered on the boats at the end of 'The Dark Knight') Much of this is based on Alan Moore's 'The Killing Joke', which also has a "Joker origin Story" which ends with the origin story having been revealed as a false reality / past that he imagined. Joker views Batman as the ultimate joke, a fully grown man that puts on a mask and cap, and spends his hours each night fighting crime, believing that he can rescue a city that the Joker views as inherently evil and unredeemable. I viewed Folie a Deux to simply be a continuation of that Fantasy. To me the musical moments greatly imply this. If the first film truly is a fantasy within a fantasy (the way the scenes are with his neighbor Sophie) maybe he has layered within this fantasy, elements of the REAL outside world, as it is playing out in his mind. The Joker likely WOULD think that Harley only loved him because he was the Joker, and that if he ever abandoned that role, she would cease to love him. To recap lol, after realizing his arch-nemesis's true identity, the Joker is once again placed into Arkham Asylum, during his boredom, he imagines himself as being responsible for his nemesis's ultimate creation but possibly layers within this imagining, elements of his own past before becoming the Joker, he imagines the way he would like society to view him, as a liberator, as a persecuted individual put on trial, instead of a heartless killer. At the very end of the second film, he then kills his previous (what he perceives as weak) self and fully commits to becoming the Joker. We have just watched him fantasize, reconsider his role as the Clown Prince of Crime, then fully re-commit to his previous evil self. If anyone has read this far thank you, you are a trooper 😔 I've obviously watched the movie 'Inception' one too many times! Lol

[@CousinCubone]

I loved this movie, it was sad and beautiful. It's funny that we as an audience thought we are watching 2 movies as a joker origin story but in actuality it's an arthur fleck story, a lonely broken guy that the world didn't see who (SPOILER) was just looking for love, a friend, freedom and a reason to be alive, and he lost it all by the end. He tried to take responsibility as arthur, he tried to fall in love as Arthur, and no one wanted that, the world wanted him to take up the joker mask and he refused to be that monster, so he died for it and all the world will ever know is Joker and never the man that spawned it because he died as he lived, a nobody and alone.😢😢However in my opinion the bigger loss was possibly of his friend Mr. Puddles, who only wants arthur, he said the joker scared him but arthur, the man beneath was the only person to have ever been kind to him. But in his attempt at trying to keep his followers and lover the joker threw that friendship away.Incase anyone was interested in more of my thoughts HEAVY SPOILERS When youre in love, life is like a song. The singing was a door into the fantasy that he created for himself and others. It shows him in his fantasy, when he sings and dance to himself and in that fantasy world he is the character Joker. He infects like minded people such as harley quinn or his follower in the prison shown by thier singing to him, signaling they are joining him in that fantasy. When his prison follower possibly died because he was showing joker his support by singing, arther fleck felt that the fantasy has gone too far, joker has too much blood on his hands for arther to stomach, so he discards the mask that is the joker and tries to take responsibility in court as Arthur, tries to reconnect with Harley as Arthur, but in thier last scene together she was singing to him as if a siren trying to call the joker back out. But in the end arthur lost her, because all she wanted was joker. However in my opinion the bigger loss was possibly of his friend Mr. Puddles, earlier in the movie, who only wanted arthur, he admitted the joker scared him, but arthur the man beneath was the only person to have ever been kind to him. However at the time in his attempt at trying to keep his followers and lover the joker threw that friendship away. Arthur lost his friend to the joker, arthur never had a partner that loved him but instead loved the joker, arthur was found guilty of his crimes and lost any resemblance of freedom due to the murders he commited as the joker, and lastly in the last 2 minutes of the movie he was stabbed to death by a psycho who carved his own face into a smile. The fantasy that arthur let gone to far, the Joker, has stripped him of everything he had, and was now given flesh to kill him. The last thing he heard while dying was the laugh of the monster he unleashed into the world.

[@turnupthereverb3176]

beautiful comment. Love your perspective on the movie; I enjoyed it quite a bit when I saw it too

[@elevenseven-yq4vu]

Brilliant interpretation! 🙏

[@CTladiesman]

Wrong!! You see the world black and white!! There's NOTHING to justify about this movie!!

[@AMIN_mash]

Another point, I think the films shows how society worships personas over people, overlooking mental illness for spectacle. It challenges the glorification of “crazy” figures, reminding us that what matters is the person behind the mask, not the character they play.

[@Djtwizz1981]

YES! My take exactly

[@elevenseven-yq4vu]

Spot on, and a well-needed message!

[@MoleyRusselsWart_]

Thanks for being fair Coy. It feels like the hate campaign has gotten out of hand a bit. I agree that the Joker is having the last laugh with our reaction. He essentially killed the audience. I did like the symmetry of Carnival J1 and Arthur dying in J2. The birth and death of Joker.

[@timnoori668]

The one take shot at the end after the explosion was amazing

[@MychaelCalkinsVIDEO]

Defs subscribing. Its refreshing to hear a movie review that isn't so surface level. Its nice talking about what the filmmakers vision might be, rather than what audiences are expecting of it. Doesn't necessarily mean the movies good BUT it is nice to read in-between the lines and discuss what the filmmaker was trying to purvey. I find myself in the middle on whether I like or dislike this movie. A second viewing will likely tip the scale for me.

[@DrVVVinK]

I like that he was able to give him a death review in under 15 minutes. At mostly on surface level film reviews are more essays at 20 minutes plus. I hope this review reaches a wide audience. I agree with you that most online reviews tend to be your service level, Chris Stuckman is partly to blame for that.

[@Hand_Painted_Tie]

- Who cares what the filmmakers vision is? They didn't convey the vision though the movie itself. That's why this guy is trying to explain it to everyone.

[@bigjsquare1988]

Glad you're subscribing! Coy is such an awesome dude who loves movies and always gives his genuine and unique perspective when it comes to them.

[@crowing3886]

The reason it's not so surface level is because the surface level of the movie is that bad. You have to reach for some assuming meta plot to justify the watch. Though based on the director's actual words...it falls flat. He caved to his convictions an want us to feel bad that he took the wb money for the sequal. Now he'll never be asked to make another one lol.

[@dumbtastical]

@@Hand_Painted_Tie I got it about immediately on first watch 🤷‍♂️

[@politefan8141]

Joker 2 was a giant missed opportunity. It doesn't really betray the lore. In later iterations, Harley does break free from the Joker, which is even referenced in the Margot Robbie version. Where this movie truly dropped the ball was by not making Harvey Dent a major foil to the Joker. In previous versions, Joker manipulates Harvey because he represents virtue and reform while Joker represents chaos and anarchy. The movie also misses showing the impact of Joker's actions on the city of Gotham. It remains a backdrop of the film, but the film could have still shown the cracks happening while still retaining its small scale. I didn't even hate the musical numbers, I just thought it would have been cooler had they been real. Having Joker escape and broadcast his crimes to the world while singing and dancing? I would have dug it. It totally aligns with more performative acts of real life crimes such as "deny, defend, and depose". Finally, why not just kill off Harley at the end if you wanted to break the Joker? In fact, have Joker's own minions kill her. It should have been Harley instead of a cellmate the audience barely knows or is invested in. Leave Joker's fate ambiguous. It would have resonated with a public that is still grappling with the rise of populism and its worship of people like Luigi Magione. This film is purposefully restrained, way too small scale in its focus, and the ending completely abandons the themes which made the first film so timely. At $200 million dollars, this was a gigantic missed opportunity.

[@franciscomontes4982]

Arthur getting entangled in other people's fixation and perception of Joker, which ultimately led to his decision at the end Revealing that the joke was on us. Philips cooked here.

[@Bingchilling11]

Fr bruh this movie so good people just don’t get the story

[@ROCKLEONEZERO]

@@Bingchilling11 I got the story, but I still didn’t love it. Just thought it was okay.

[@erikinmanhattan7775]

true, fantastik story about a sik individual who aspired to be THE JOKER. but completely failed at it , and in the end, the CHosen One to become THE TRUE JOKER is revealed. The JOker is like a TITLE not a person. A Title like being THE DEVIL or something...

[@Bingchilling11]

@@ROCKLEONEZERO L

[@crashingcoyote]

I loved it because it felt like a continuation of the first. & it really shows what’s it’s like when you idolize a fantasy instead of facing reality The ending was brilliant.

[@ADifferentLens2345]

Paid

[@Watergate-Keeper]

@@ADifferentLens2345try actually engaging with people on the movie instead of immediately assuming they don’t believe what they’re saying.

[@BaxterSquee]

Agree 100%. It was very brutal and realistic and I just don't think most people like that in a movie.

[@chummygun]

Sadly it ruined everything the first movie stood for.

[@skwong94]

@@ADifferentLens2345 i think the movie is great, now where to get my paycheck?

[@-BOBB-]

Finally an insightful review instead of just a rant. Thank you!! 😩🙏

[@starhawk63]

Thank you, Coy! I saw the movie Monday, and i have had a busy week, so i still haven't processed my experience. But what you said relates to how i felt, and I knew I didn't hate it. I just couldn't say why it was somewhat satisfying for me. I think I'm a lot closer to that now.

[@Pomoscorzo]

Who hates this movie hates Arthur Fleck because contrarily to Batman's Joker, he's human.

[@simonliddz]

Good review Coy ! I agree with a lot of your thoughts and feelings, but not entirely. It’s all too much to discuss in your KZbin comments, but I’m glad you liked/respected the film. Similarly, I appreciate and respect the big swings. I think these, now, two films; are going to confuse and disappoint a lot of people. But I actually thought it was a very good film. I’ve heard your thoughts on a lot of stuff even back to the Collider panel days, and I’ve always loved your enthusiasm and pragmatic, but reverent approach to film fandom. Keep it up my guy ! And congrats on tying the knot 👏🏻

[@dc100dc100]

People are angry that Arthur isn’t The Joker. It’s called “joker”, he is A joker. If you removed the “Arkham” sign and any reference to Gotham, there’s nothing that makes this the DC Joker. He’s an abused kid grown up into a mentally ill man in a terrible city. Anything else is projecting our expectation of The Joker onto him. Lee’s reaction to him later in the film is the audiences’ misunderstanding of the movie and the character. Also, the reason for the music? He first saw Lee in music therapy and she sang to him. If it was art therapy, Arthur would have been dancing through paintings. He’s mentally ill, not a mastermind anarchist. Can you truly say that you could see Arthur from Joker1 planning the downfall of Gotham? He was full of swagger as joker, but he wasn’t smarter; he didn’t demonstrate any greater competency, he had no skills other than a good strut. Heck, this was even shown in the 1st movie. Joker’s super moment on the stairs is shown as him just dancing like an idiot hearing his own music. He was never The Joker. Even at the end of Joker1 we see him in police custody with no sign of a fight. He probably just sat down on the couch and waited for the police. Then he gets rescued by his followers and he stands on top of the car. Then we see him hunched over, laughing his painful Arthur laugh smoking a cigarette with another counselor in Arkham. Caught again. We wanted to see him powerful, so we did, but he was still Arthur just playing more roles for atttention and love. We wanted Hannibal Lechter but he was always Buffalo Bill

[@jordanwoods728]

Brilliant take and I completely agree, except that buffalo bill was interested in hurting innocent people. Arthur's primary motivation was to hurt those he perceived as bullies directly to him. He was driven by vengeance and a desire to be loved whereas those things are irrelevant to true psychopaths

[@HonkHonkler]

THANK YOU

[@HonkHonkler]

IT'S CALLED FUCKING JOKER! I NOW know of Todd's quotes on the OG film, it basically is just a whole different film with Joker as a mask, but done great and we have The Killing Joke origins for it to be inspired off of. Why it's a great elseworld one-off (or should've been). The sequel basically openly admits this was NEVER a Joker film, so WHY should I care? Don't name your film something false because people won't see your origin PoS. Or better yet, maybe this film COULD work if it wasn't tied to the fucking character.

[@teddybear8348]

@@HonkHonkler it wasnt how hard it is for do that

[@erikinmanhattan7775]

1% actually get this movie is not about the JOKER, just goes to show how Reality TV is making everybody Stupid. Perhaps it should have been called Mental Murray OR something like MUrray the STepping Stone,etc.... calling it THe JOker sure fooled all the idiots

[@temmietaft2552]

Thanks so much for your honest review. I just love your channel & content.

[@sebastianalegria3401]

If you ask me about what went wrong, I think the idea of making a sequel, which meant they ruined the movie on purpose and regarding the ending of Joker 2, it was the ending of Arthur Fleck, who was tired of being Joker for the people that always saw him as a martyr, so the only thing he wanted was someone took his place. As a result, his dream came true, I know I shouldn't have done this brief spoiler review, but that's what I think of the film.

[@BTBSOUNDS]

I got home from watching it with 3 other friends and I won't lie, aside from one small problem (that a lot of the songs go nowhere, it's just hammering home emotions we already know the characters are feeling. Not every song, some of them do have character moments and I do like how some are done like Arthur's song when he's heard about his "dumb" laugh) and one major problem I have with the movie (the fact that it almost seems solely like Arthur's sexual assault at the end is what makes him quit, rather than everything and everyone leading him to that moment), I fucking LOVED this movie. I genuinely think I like it MORE than the first one but I need time to marinate on that opinion. All I know is I liked it a lot and I'm sad people aren't gonna watch it because of preconceived notions in their heads of what it being a "musical" means.

[@elevenseven-yq4vu]

I think there were two things that only in combination made Arthur Fleck wake up from taking refuge in the Joker delusion: First one was Gary's testimonial, which did get to him and affected him deeply, but still the Joker side in him suppressed or rather overrode that shocking revelation by keeping up the illusion that strongmanning it in a superficially careless Joker manner would protect Arthur from ever getting harmed again like Gary was by him. The brutal rape by the prison guards, attacking him exactly for incorporating the Joker in the first place, takes away the illusion of the Joker being able to protect Arthur against the coldness of Gotham City. This second revelation allows him to bring out his true self to the surface again and to the emancipate himself from the supposed Joker "armor" which factually had turned out to be an "iron lady" instead - and also that automated "robot" bringing him to commit atrocities against other human beings suffering under the same iniquities within Gotham City that shaped him (lack of empathy/sympathy, underfunded mental health care, mobbing, trauma).

[@trekechic21]

Thank you for putting words to my feelings! This wasn’t a bad movie, per se. I didn’t love it, but I could see what it was trying to be and do. It did accomplish something, especially when you consider it as an extension of the first movie’s story rather than a second separate story (as many sequels are). I agree that the ending was the strongest part.

[@Tuurbah]

love your takes on the movies, thanks for this, helped me figure out my own thoughts on joker 2 and yeah I feel the same way as you, 3 stars ! 😅

[@grimestonefilms4052]

I agree with you in so many ways. I love the character of the Joker and I think the first movie showed how the people can get behind these evil and psychotic characters. And I enjoyed how the second movie challenged that idea of the Joker and people should see him. I didn’t love the movie but I loved these ideas.

[@HeyJay2000]

Honestly yeah, i did enjoy this movie. Quite a lot. It's weird to see everyone hate it. I'm mainly hearing that they basically wanted something completely different from the movie, which also makes me think they didn't understand the first movie, cause they were never gonna get the proper Joker. Like there is no reality where Arthur Fleck dresses up as a clown and fights a guy dressed as a bat on the roof tops of Gotham. 😅😅 But yeah, i guess I'm one of the few that actually liked this movie. I lovw old musicals and artsy fartsy movies, so i really dug this movie. 😅

[@bctalkspod]

Agree with most of your points. People didn't pay enough attention to the Merrie Melodies style cartoon at the beginning. That wasn't there just to be cute and fun, it literally spells out the theme of the movie and how Todd Phillips is portraying this Joker

[@MrSundaynighttt]

over 2 hours just to stick it to the fans is not justified.

[@erikinmanhattan7775]

it's a TEST to see who GOT IT and who didn't. I got it after the FIrst JOker movie that this guy was not the REal Joker.He was just too HUMAN....

[@bobcobb3654]

@@MrSundaynightttthe audience is not owed fan service.

[@crowing3886]

3 out of 5 meets a top 20... give it the 4 you want to 😂 I don't watch movies to see a director get mad because some incels liked a character tooo much. I go to see a good movie. Not a bad pseudo meta commentary about how you're the victim because you took studio money to make a unneeded sequel and throwing away all your convictions.. joker praise isn't new. Falling Down came out decades ago... Your argument about not liking the bad guy and they need to die makes no sense when he is beat, graped an killed to no consequence.. the guards get off scott free. Even the musical was filler for having no real reason for being included. It wasn't a valid plot device at all. Hell, should've got lin Manuel to help. The fact the joker cuts his face makes it worse because we all know the implications it makes even if they don't make sense. How many jokers had painted faces? And the ONLY iteration of ker cutting his face is the one killing thejoker? It's so ham fisted it's insulting. You can pretend the movie had a bigger arching point but the only reason you have to think that is because the surface level is so bad. You have no choice to to find some good to cling to. The story, plot, pacing was straight trash. Good performances an cinematography is a wasted plus if the main core isn't good. Not to mention classic movies exist without those two aspects.

[@elevenseven-yq4vu]

Alright, "Falling Down" did in one movie most of what the "Joker" duology did over the course of two movies - at least when it comes to the respective protagonists in both tales. You have got a strong point there! However the "Joker" (twofold) tale wasn't just a rehash of "Falling Down", it was also a tie-in with DC's multiverse world-building of Gotham City. To me, as such a DC multiverse extension, "Joker" was a daring and well-written new approach to the Joker's themes by making an average outsider with a troubled past/present life the central perspective on the idea of Joker - and not tell yet another Gotham City tale centering on a superbeing, hero or villain. Arthur Fleck isn't an anti-hero but an anti-villain: Someone who becomes a villain against his own intention, for a long time without him realizing it, in his own mind being rather an agent of his own truth although he doesn't even know himself well enough, has lost what he deemed his only purpose in life. Yes, the plot figure at core is a match with D-Fens, but embedding such a figure in a DC tale makes it worthwhile to see the story play out as it does, because it sheds a new light on Gotham City: As seen from below, as seen in a more realistic light, as seen from a highly delusional point of view, as being a play on different aspects of clowns/harlekins/Joker cards/imitations/shadows/ambiguity/Judy & Punch tropes, as a re-mix, inversion, deconstruction and prelude to the existing Joker / Harley myths: A fresh take on existing lore. All of that makes those two movies worthwhile for me - in a way different from "Falling Down", although large parts do indeed seem like an "improvisation over..." or "variation on..." to put it into musical terminology.

[@Ruleof2Review]

Such a fantastic movie. A thousand percent better than the haters say. Please continue to spread the positive word about this masterpiece.

[@AC-hj9tv]

😂😂😂

[@CTladiesman]

This movie sucks

[@meanwhilekai]

I freaking loved this movie. I am shocked by the reviews. I too loved the ending because it explains that (like you always say) ARTHUR FLECK is not THE JOKER. Is that guy who killed him? Maybe if you want to take it that way. It is similar to how the one comic origin for Joker is the Red hood and if I remember correctly there was a red hood before him that inspired him. For all we know, the kid that kills him grows up and fights Batman when he’s older. You don’t have to take it that way but I like that it is in a way aware of the fact that this character isn’t The Joker. This is just commenting on the ending, not my sole reason for liking the movie but loved hearing your take on it, Coy! Keep up the great stuff man!

[@EagerCompass-mm7gj]

People need to watch this review! They went in wanting THE Joker and left disappointed. Its not a good sign reflecting our society.

[@tornadochaser2457]

The first time I watched the movie, I thought it was okay, but... I zoned out a bit while watching it due to thinking absentmindedly. I thought there wasn't much plot, it was just a collection of scenes mainly, but I looked up the plot on Wikipedia to connect the dots on the parts I missed, and now I appreciate it greatly. I think the movie's great! I was worried about the musical numbers because I didn't know how it would fit into the grimy, gritty world of Gotham, but seeing how they're all in Arthur's head, they work great. They add a wonderfully unique, psychological viewpoint, and it's entirely suitable too, for a man who is theatrical as an experienced clown and dancer. I love Lee and Arthur's relationship and his journey as he goes through various experiences in the asylum. It seems comic books and adaptations have an expected standard for in-jokes and references at any point possible - Just look at the names Otto Octavius, Victor Fries, and Edward Nygma. The way these films work, with singular, organic stories, I was worried they'd tip over into feeling forced when likely done. However, the murder of the Waynes, the "Harley Quinn" character, and the "real" Joker work very well. They're fun references that make sense or fit in organically enough. In this realistic world, the "real" Joker would be locked in prison for his crimes, so there's no chance of manipulating the comics Harley in an asylum, thus making her not existing not feel wrong and she can't exist logically, and the comics Joker doesn't have a laughing condition. The only reference I didn't like at all is the Harvey Dent one, the character's Two Face alter ego has no real link to the story whatsoever, and there's no reason we should focus on his origin story in any way. His thoroughly upright, formal character by itself, also completely feels deserving of remaining intact considering the narrative that's presented. I think Harvey shouldn't be in the film. His origin felt entirely, inorganically forced in for comic book fans. With the murder of the Waynes, we saw Thomas Wayne and his personality earlier in the film and the whole character of the Joker revolves around Batman, so it felt entirely acceptable. Some may say Arthur's death had no narrative reason for existing other than for a comic book reference, and that consequently feels forced and wrong, but random tragedies can happen in life, and Arthur was simply a victim of one. Plus, it at least doesn't feel completely, entirely undeserved due to the more grisly murders Arthur committed in the first film.

[@lacwad2003]

Honestly hot take but this movie is in my top 5 for the year. It’s definitely nowhere near the first one but I gotta be honest, I think as a movie it’s fine if you don’t acknowledge him as “the joker” from DC comics. It’s not the same character.

[@brandonthurston8675]

"we were never going anywhere, it was all a fantasy and you ruined that"

[@moonbrooke27]

Thanks for your thoughts and review of the film!

[@DustinSteckler-lh6cb]

I thought the guy who shanked him might have been the real Joker.

[@AvaVonGoth]

I like to think his visitor was Mr. Puddles ❤

[@elevenseven-yq4vu]

I loved his scene.

[@toxicknicksfan5547]

Divisive? 98% of people say it sucks. I though contrarianism was dead on KZbin

[@CoyJandreau]

I’m forever baffled by people deciding based off others opinions

[@toxicknicksfan5547]

@@CoyJandreau Huh? Really ? Baffled? lol I laugh so hard at this..I farted.

[@chrisbartolini1508]

@@CoyJandreauAfter reading the motivations behind the story and the angle they were taking, basically it being a bitter response to people who sympathized with Arthur, it definitely ruined the film for me. I’m sorry, but you can’t be antagonistic towards your audience. That’s not what art should ever be.

[@Watcher6977]

After seeing Arthur with young Bruce, I know Arthur will not be the Joker, and I've accepted that it turns out to be real. Who really cares? I liked the ending of Joker 2; the first two films are great. Solid matured Dc fan here.

[@TonyQuinn]

I hate both extreme dislike and defense of any piece of art. I didn’t like the movie at first but I’m still extremely fascinated by it. It’s refreshing to see you and Dan Murrell give a contrary opinion without being smug and condescending.

[@SouthSideFrank]

The joke is on the audience. In that way it’s truly a Joker film.

[@alki9859]

I really like your take on it. Nice.

[@Boshuda1977]

I saw it today and I loved it! I expected nothing and got everything. I was mesmerised and the musical numbers made sense and in context. Though I do love musicals I wouldn't call it a musical as such. It was brilliantly implemented. A waltz through the mind of a madman who is reacting to the first woman who has given an interest in him....and for all the wrong reasons. I really need to see it again!

[@dibils]

to me, just like how Jokers influence resulted in the death of bruce wayans parents in the 1st movie, in this movie his influence resulted in death of Arthur Fleck. to me Joker was already dead after that closing statement part

[@erikrodriguez9681]

I watched the first movie, I didn’t watch the sequel yet, but I’ve read all the spoilers and the whole story to determine that I understand what the sequel was trying to accomplish. Yes was the sequel unnecessary? Absolutely it was by far. A cash grab for Warner Brothers. That’s just a hard reality of the movie business. However, the sequel was still made, and in my opinion the idea that Arthur was not the Joker makes more sense in the sequel. Joker is just an idea which Arthur clearly wanted to get away from. I agree that the ending was quite perfect. In fact, Arthur needed to die to pay for his crimes. He was a murderer, and this was his consequence. no happy ending needed. Whether the insane inmate ends up becoming the quintessential joker or if this is another inspired, joker is not that important. It’s the message that it sends. I think people need to stop overreacting and watch the movie in a different perspective for them to fully appreciate it

[@ThemboCinema]

Ah a glimmer of hope! seeing it Sunday with adjusted expectations for sure

[@CoyJandreau]

Hoping you dig it!!

[@jaredsimpsonacn]

Good to see you actually saw the film, not just listened to the hype. This is the correct take on the film

[@RS-kt6bo]

This guy is and will always be deluded af.

[@HonkHonkler]

Same with a lot of the comments agreeing with him, DELUDED humans lol.

[@HonkHonkler]

But even mainstream agrees with us on this on, so going through the cope is delicious lol.

[@supergirl1214_]

I think this movie’s ending is genius and they literally went with the title of the film. We as a viewer, who watched the entire thing kinda depicts the character of Harley we also expected Joker to do this insane things which he was so well known for but at the end of the day it was all just a fantasy that he made up.

[@mauriciohalo2081]

You know, I kinda like the movie for this reason too!! Does it have issues? Yes, but it actually way more entertaining., I was able to separate myself!! Yah it was very like a style independent with $200 million!! And if you’re into director photography!! in Manhattan there’s an IMAX I can do 80 tall screen it is one of those can do 70mm!! go see it like that, separated from the comics!!! And like he said he’s making a joke to Warner brother!! I actually like it I might want to see it again!!

[@joshvanlandingham4265]

I feel this film was extremely official and artistic the songs chosen from the 50s-70s to explain the story more was brilliant. The simple setting gave the movie the time to play around in the fantasy of pain and wanted to be accepted. It explores the depth of abuse and trauma. Leaves you will lots of interpretation of if laga gaga character was even real or just a figment of his imagination as some to accept and love. Once she's out his true identity she abandons like everyone and in the end he is put out of his misery. I understand why alot of people didn't like this film as it uses tons of metaphors and requires lots of focus on the dialog. I would compare the movie to something like mother, the whale or eternal sunshine of the spotless mind. It's very fantasy based and not Supposed to be as straightforward as the original. I truly enjoyed this movie.I watched it too Times with my mother and thoroughly enjoyed the second time as I was able to recognize things that I did not see before. This is the kind of movie that you will either love or hate. For me personally , I connected with this film strongly even more than I expected to it is one of my favorite movies of all time

[@lucbloom]

I think I liked it a bit more than you (due to the boldness of the ending(the only one I would have accepted)), but you say all the right stuff anyway. Arthur is not an unpredictable scheming sadist out for maximum carnage, and never should evolve into that. The guy at the end could be it. Arthur is a frustrated traumatized person with a desire to be respected and loved (and a psychotic disorder). I love that they dared underline the difference.

[@lucbloom]

People that don’t understand that, and wish for power fantasy or for violence to be put on a pedestal; sorry. The grown-ups got their way.

[@marcakins3373]

What was crazy to me, there were all the ingredients of an amazing film….but I don’t love it but I don’t hate it either…I need to really sit and think about this movie

[@k-dawgwestmore4643]

I don’t agree w/ your take on Taxi Driver. Wish fulfillment? Have you seen that movie? The whole point of the movie is to critique the Hollywood hero. The point is that this guy is really messed up and you shouldn’t want to be like him.

[@CoyJandreau]

The whole third act of that film negates all that. It’s incel fantasy p*rn

[@k-dawgwestmore4643]

@@CoyJandreau the third act showcases how the masses celebrate incels and insane people despite the fact that they’re clearly unwell and over-exerting themselves into situations that are too complicated for them to fix. The movie is asserting that Western archetypes are outdated and it’s scary that they’re still being celebrated.

[@Gino565]

@@CoyJandreau Unless you think adult audiences need to be infantilised, and aren’t capable of viewing a morally grey/reprehensible character objectively, then how can you say that? Saying it’s ’incel fantasy p*rn’ because a main character does something you wouldn’t is really ignorant. The whole point of taxi driver is that this is an unstable guy who was going to assassinate a presidential candidate, he chickens out of that and decides to ‘save’ an underage girl from pimps by murdering those involved. He’s now a hero in the news, and celebrated. Showing that the public will celebrate acts of violence if it’s against the right people, and are often unconcerned with the type of person that enacted the violence. Travis Bickle is a ‘hero’ at the end, when he so easily could’ve been a villain. Your problem seems to be that the film doesn’t spoon feed you the message and instead asks you (the adult) to pay attention.

[@Gino565]

@@k-dawgwestmore4643 exactly. His take on the film is bizarre and shallow. Just because a film portrays a morally reprehensible character, doesn’t mean it’s promoting that ideology. It’s an adult film that doesn’t tell you how to think, because there’s an expectation that you, an adult will be able to view things objectively and understand that Travis bickle is a cautionary tale.

[@AC-hj9tv]

​@@Gino565yea this guy's channel is terrible

[@fabianhammer2864]

you know what this film felt like? a messy breakup. i loved it, btw.

[@LSPalm]

Gotham is 1980 NYC in this. And the secure Arkham island is Rikers. Down to the violent criminal guards

[@emperorlelouch5696]

I'm glad someone else understands the deep meaning behind the film. Lifes not meant to be taken so seriously, but that doesn't mean we don't enjoy it. It doesn't mean that we don't have our moments of bliss and joy or other happy feelings. If people continue to stay in that state of self-ignor-ance, self-pity, and self-doubt, they're always going to stay in that mindset of victim mentality and they'll never be able to accept the harder truths in life so that they can use that pain as fuel for self-empowerment and happiness. To become whole is to accept the shadow and constantly work on yourself to truly grow as a person.

[@djstokes95]

If this movie is named anything else I think it’s a sold 3 1/2-4 star movie. And that’s just my opinion, I think if this movie sticks to the 1st 2/3 of the movie, with some actual Joker-esque moments and still ends with his death. This could’ve been solid. Still liked most of it. Just fell flat to me.

[@AlexH274]

I loved the movie. I think it was more intellectual than most people can handle.

[@starkiller7096]

I loved the movie

[@k-man2u610]

I really enjoyed this movie in particular Lady Gaga’s Lee Quinzel. I loved the switches from reality to fantasy and it all made sense to me in the end. I know I’m all alone on an island over here but “That’s Life” 😎

[@bigfun82]

Idk if I think seeing a person with mental health issues be murdered after watching them have maybe the worst possible episode ever could ever feel anything other than truly depressing. Whatever else this movie is I can't view it and not see that happening too. Really pulls me out of it

[@alexkaa1022]

Ok. So my visceral reaction had me not really knowing what to make of this movie and not liking that ending. However Coy, I think your analysis definitely makes sense. Once conveyed that he wasn't Joker some of his fans turned on him. Now I gotta watch them back for a second viewing. Great job. 👍🏿

[@JoseGonzalez-bu6zj]

I love this movie there is a lot of meanings, and the “joker” is a “concept “. But I also understand why people have mix feelings about it !

[@CoyJandreau]

Yup yup agreed!

[@aaronhall5715]

Great insight Coy. I think I'd be more invested in the ending if I was invested in the story throughout. Unfortunately I found it a bit meandering and I thought that any message of mental health or cult of personality never fully materialized due to a lack of commitment in the "bold swings" it made. If anything I think it's a cautionary tale of one's own identity and how certain choices can lead you to somewhere you might not actually want to be.

[@chrisretzlaff2895]

I was engaged the entire time, I didn't need a comic book movie, I didn't really think the first one was either. I genuinely enjoyed the performances, I liked the shared delusion from Pheonix and Gaga. The moment Arthur thinks he is getting a true love is beautiful. And it ties really nice to his delusion with the neighbor in the first one. But this was real.....until it wasn't. I liked the tongue and cheek moments, That Puddles courtroom scene was fantastic. Lastly I enjoyed the music, most of those songs are Italian lounge singer songs, Franky Blue eyes....2 hours and there were only two things I didn't like...Dent and a phone call...that answering machine would have beeped 3 mins before it did, and it probably should have. Thanks for review Coy, always killing it

[@DizzeeLex91]

This movie left me sad. Mainly becuz Arthur never really got what he wanted and that was full acceptance for just being Arthur.

[@1polyron1]

You conveyed in words what I kind of felt. I could tell the ending was the only way for this movie to make sense, and when it came time to it I had to figure out what to feel. What was the point Todd was making. It felt like there was some snarkiness beneath a lot of the scenes. The ending made me positive of this. The only way this movie makes sense is as you say, the idea of the Joker isn't something to root for. Moreover, people looked past Arthur to see Joker. Harley did, and oddly enough so did the real live audience, us. People are hating this movie because Arthur didn't embrace Joker. That last scene was an actual metaphor for the audience (the guy who stabs Arthur after Arthur rejects Joker) and Arthur. The mob wants to see what it wants to see. In the end who was there for Arthur? Even if I can't 100% love what the sequel is, I can appreciate that it really makes you think (and i mean really you have to make it make sense almost). Damn Todd, bro made the anti-sequel

[@commie_maybe]

I didn't even notice the other guy cutting his face. I was so fixated on Arthur until it cut away.

[@DanielKimdanielkim90]

Great review and analysis!

[@CoyJandreau]

Thanks man

[@Watcher6977]

What if.. Joker 1: Introduction-what does it mean to become the Joker? Joker 2: Courtroom scene-birth of the real Joker. Joker 3: Let Keoghan embrace chaos with Year One Batman (Battinson). The Batman: Introduction to Batman (being a detective and an amateur, etc.). The Batman 2: Courtroom scene with Dr. Freeze because of his advanced technology; Dent's lawyer comeback to Two-Face. Or bruce adopting robin - idk The Batman 3: Back with Keoghans joker; with Bane brings more chaos- Then the new superman alien intro to DC Green lantern , wonderwoman whatsoever.. then flash to take us back again from whatever. Justice league 1 or 2will introduce martian manhunter and aquaman, aqua man does not need to have a movie because he is a fish. 🌞🌚

[@adamdominguez656]

I can’t stop thinking about the movie.

[@luckyluciano6939]

Great review sir, you get it.

[@kevinmcboyle]

You are right that they used the Joker title just to get people in the theatre. After watching the first film, I was thinking this movie has nothing to do with joker. I don't agree he never wanted to make a comic book movie with him putting all these batman easter aggs in the movie.

[@DornishQueen]

It's nice seeing another review that is not pure hate. I went from really being excited about this movie, to not wanting to see it. After your review, I'll give it a chance again.

[@WriterusAeternus]

After seeing mixed reviews I went and saw it to decide for myself. I liked it. I liked the first one too. It’s not a comic book movie nor is it DC Joker. It’s like an arthouse film.

[@ronthorn3]

Yeah I went in with very low expectations and ended up liking it.

[@Kanoog]

@@WriterusAeternus It shouldn't have been called the Joker and had DC elements in it, your point makes no sense. It's a comic book movie, takes place in freaking Gotham and had Bruce Wayne in it.

[@WriterusAeternus]

@@Kanoog My point was that they may have borrowed elements from the DC comics but the director did not end up making a comic book accurate movie about the Joker. He co-opted the character to garner interest in his own version of a sad, broken man who just wanted to be loved. People were expecting DC Joker and they got Todd Phillips Arthur Fleck. The studio marketing exploited the audience’s expectation for sure. But it’s the end product is not a DC comic book movie.

[@elevenseven-yq4vu]

​@@WriterusAeternus It's a DC comic world movie in the sense that it portrays Gotham City as a corrupting influence on its citizens that often tragically destroys even those who start out with good intentions. That is consistent with the lore. Another aspect of the movie is the reimagination of common tropes from DC's history, which the comics also do over and over again in multiple dimensions and timelines of its vast and seemingly self-contradictory world. So that the inversion of roles in the mental powerstruggle dressed up as (one-sided) toxic love between Arthur and Harleen is structurally much in keeping with other retcons from DC's longstanding history.

[@gohanson27]

This film was pretty good. I liked the film as well. It is not a bad film I think people went expecting something else. I rewatched the first film before going in to the sequel and I knew it was a musical, somewhat. All film are subjective but to me this was good.

[@michaelrobles9089]

Do you think that was actually "Lee" on those steps? I'm not really sure it was because the shot of her before the steps has her putting a gun to her head and since it's already been established that Arthur can at times see things that aren't there (and he's off his meds). I'm not certain it was her there. It's possible after getting "rejected" by him that she went home and totally changed her appearance and then waited at the steps just to tell him off but it could also work in his mind that since he chose to reject that side of himself that anything that supported that side would after his decision would turn on him/abandon him. Just a thought.

[@AMIN_mash]

Totally with you there Coy. I don’t fully agree with every point you made, but I’m on the same wavelength as you. I also gave it a 3/5 stars. I liked the film, didn’t love it. I’m not saying people need to like this film but A LOT of people are missing some of the key messages and overall point(s) of this film. Great analysis and breakdown dude! 👍🏼👍🏼

[@travisheath6554]

I feel like a studio shouldn’t allow someone to use their IP if that person doesn’t love that IP. All the Batman references in this movie just feels like bumperstickers and meaningless. Also the ending tried to be a sopranos ending but the sopranos never hated us for liking Tony it told us the whole time Tony was the villain and just explained why he was the villain, where joker spent a whole movie making us sympathetic towards Arther then spent a whole movie telling us why we shouldn’t be sympathetic towards him.

[@teddybear8348]

@@travisheath6554 the whole is have sempethy to artur not tge joker

[@MikeySkywalker]

Tony Gilroy does not love Star Wars. I would say he did okay with Rogue One and Andor. He literally was not a fan of Star Wars until he worked on Rogue One. This type of overreaction is toxic. There are literally three ongoing Batman universes at the moment. I think there is room for different takes on them.

[@MikeySkywalker]

If you were ever sympathetic towards Arthur, that is a YOU problem man. Arthur was always a pathetic, self pitying, narcissist. He was not an empath turned killer. The end he met was the only one that made any sense. The fact that people felt some form of strange sympathy for him, does not change that fact. I just did not like a lot of the other aspects of the movie. That one was great.

[@spaghettipersonhello]

joker 2 is literally just as much if not more about how people should be sympathetic to arthur as the first one

[@MikeySkywalker]

@@spaghettipersonhello No it is not. It's quite the opposite my man. It's that anyone could be Arthur but they choose not to be. We could all pity ourselves. These extremes are never the answer and they always end one way.

[@Valeska2k]

Arthur was set up to be murdered by Wayne industries... Arthur rejected the role of the joker so they found (Heath) as another candidate to become "the joker" / a agent of chaos... An agent that'll destabilize Gotham.

[@erikinmanhattan7775]

RIP HEath LEdger, THe One True JOker

[@therealtt]

I really appreciated your take and look on this film. I just came out of the theater after seeing it and I was and still am to an extent disappointed, but listening to your takes made me think a bit more about what the was trying to do as a response to the first film. I am still disappointed with the movie itself but listening you made me think a bit more.

[@CoyJandreau]

Hey thanks man! Appreciate that

[@thinkbeyond3457]

Movie was great! Loved the ending (and for those that didn't...did you really think a 50-something Fleck would be the life long nemesis of an 11 year old Bruce Wayne?). I want a sequal asap!

[@elevenseven-yq4vu]

Idea for part 3: Take a scarred Harvey Dent caught between the new psychopath Joker with the self-carved grin who he is convinced killed Arthur Fleck but cannot prove it because of corrupt prison guards refusing to cooperate / covering it up and the investigation becoming a dead end, and Harleen Quinzel whom he wants to get as a crown witness after Joker has been released from Arkham and committed further crimes. Harvey wants to bring Joker down, but falls in love with Harleen who loves Joker and tries to help him by getting Dent off the case. With Harleen's relationship to Joker becoming more and more toxic due to him abusing her constantly, will she finally abandon Joker and turn him in, or will she manipulate Harvey Dent to become Two-Face? And there you have it... "Joker: Menage a Trois".

[@closetgaminginc.4605]

Very well said! Just finished watching the movie today and that's I how feel about it too. People's expectations were high because of the Joker name. If the first movie was just called 'Arthur' and this one 'Arthur folie a deux', and him not wearing makeup resembling the joker, surely would've fared better. Not the best movie, but certainly not as bad everyone was making it out to be.

[@TheShrouded]

Only just got to see it and I enjoyed it. It gave me feels of 70s love story. The songs did it for me and their last scene together was sad. I was playing "If you go away" after leaving the theatre more than 15x straight repeating from various artists including from the movie itself. I would've subtitled the movie "Arkham Boulevard" I can see why ppl hated it. They were excited to see the sinister Joker at the epilogue of the first film.

[@arturobravo701]

I am starting to like this movie more and more. Its a reaction to the public like of the first one. Its so full of meta and audience taste. The ending for me simbolizes the Don quijote ending. Arthur gets free from his joker insanity and dies. That guy cutting his face ain't the real joker. His son is. Or will be. But that guy cutting his face is the audience. Killing this movie for not getting that they wanted. They all wish to be the joker, the murder clown.

[@michelehamilton961]

Really good analysis. The film is not for me but I do appreciate your take on it.

[@TheDawnofVanlife]

The fact that this is downvoted past most ACTUAL BAD comic book movies is kinda wild. I mean I think the movie is mid, intended to be subversive, and intended to be about a guy named Arthur…and its fine. Its not great, its just ok. I think the level of downvoting is equal to the level of unreasonable expectation that this was going to turn into some Bat-verse story from the Joker’s perspective and have its own internal universe.

[@jordanwood183]

I very much enjoyed this film. I’m just returning home from seeing it in the theater. Is it better than the first one? Well, not everything has to be a competition or a comparison. I was fanboying out just being able to spend more time in Gotham City with the Arthur character. Lady Gaga was great too, I only wish she’d had more acting scenes and that the script/plot let her character do more. To those who worshipped the character in the first one (for all the wrong reasons) and hated this new one - “that’s life”. 🎶 🤡

[@adamjimenez9003]

i honestly dont even have to jump through all these hoops of "this is an else worlds" or " this isn't really the joker" or blablabla I dug this movie, not as much as the first one, but i do think you are spot on when you say this was a movie made to remind the people that thought that joker was supposed to be a story about a man that finally got his voice heard is actually a guy that's pretty pathetic and mediocre, so in a way this movie serves as the antijoker.

[@CoyJandreau]

Happy for you

[@Lamq555]

I thought the first one was going to end with him being killed by the real Joker. So I’m not mad at this. 🤷🏻‍♂️

[@BaxterSquee]

I think this film proves just how angry people get when an ending doesn't satisfy them. Makes no sense to me, really.

[@crowing3886]

​@@BaxterSqueeopinions and expectations makes non sense to you? Lol.

[@BaxterSquee]

@@crowing3886 well, the concept of an opinion of course makes sense to me, but I'm curious to know why this seems to be the case, which is what I really meant.

[@crowing3886]

@BaxterSquee well expectations start somewhere. Considering the praise the first movie got people are invested in the sequel living up to it or surpassing it.

[@BaxterSquee]

@@crowing3886 Yeah I guess people just really had a different view of what this movie was gonna be and they didn’t like what it really was