Drinker's Chasers - George RR Martin Lashes Out At "Toxic Fandoms"

Everyone's favourite purveyor of delays and excuses is back with another ill-informed rant, this time at what he perceives as "toxic fandoms" online. Well George, maybe if you spent more time writing and less time fretting about social media, you might eventually finish your book.

[@grandmufftwerkin9037]

When George was lamenting that people who were Star Wars and Star Trek fans used to like those franchises, all I could think was; yeah George, because they used to be good storytelling, and they aren't anymore.

[@TNM001]

to be fair, if the first season of TNG was released today it would be torn apart and it would never run 7 season.

[@tacotoosday42]

​@TNM001 thank God for 80s syndication, many agree that if it was a network show it would of not even finish its first season. My all time favorite show but I'll admit it doesn't really get good till season 3.

[@grandmufftwerkin9037]

@@TNM001 Maybe, however as cringe as the beginning of TNG was, it's still miles ahead of ST: Cryscovery.

[@Skitdora2010]

@@TNM001 I think Encounter at Far Point would really tickle and excite the left. I think the captured alien used to produce for the old white guy matches the woke world view- and it was the female captured and forced to work if you remember. Evil white guy- check. Enslaved female- check!

[@grandmufftwerkin9037]

@@TNM001 Another aspect from the TNG/DS9/VOY era was, when fans had criticisms or complaints, the people involved in the productions didn't denigrate them, and call them horrible people with horrible views. You didn't have guys like Ira Steven Behr or Ronald D. Moore running around launching their opinions at everyone, and telling anyone who disagreed that the show wasn't for them.

[@thetruth45678]

Cook: ::pulls trash from the garbage and slaps it on a plate:: Customer: "This is trash!" Cook: "You're just a toxic hater! GTFO!"

[@beastguyson]

Idk how you can so confidently misinterpret what was said. George is basically just saying that guys like these are annoying and overly negative.

[@thetruth45678]

@@beastguyson Have you always been confused about men? Nothing was interpreted, honeycakes. That was a direct quote. Maybe stop being annoying? You might find it helps you make friends. Well, maybe not for you.... I doubt anything will help.

[@beastguyson]

@@thetruth45678 the fuck are you talking about? 🤣 Not a quote... and that was some of the corniest shit I've read in a minute. Talking about having friends when you write like you've never left your computer chair

[@beastguyson]

@@thetruth45678 tf are you talking about? 🤣 Not a quote... and that was some of the corniest shit I've read in a minute. Talking about having friends when you write like you've never left your computer chair

[@thetruth45678]

@@beastguyson Listen, I know you've developed an unhealthy lust for me, but this isn't the schoolyard playground. Insults don't mean I love you. Stop by with a case of stout and a fat J, and you'll go a long way to winning me over. This? This is just sad.

[@staceya5149]

Turns out, 'toxic' fandoms are limited to IPs that treat their fans like garbage. Who knew?

[@thegodofalldragons]

Or to fandoms that pick up a big leftist fan base.

[@FTChomp9980]

Yeah plus the Companies are the toxic ones and are blaming us instead and I am like what?

[@ColinFox]

@@thegodofalldragons I dispute that these "picked up" fans are not fans at all - they are professional agitators who are looking for the next thing to shit on and then mock those who complain.

[@blowfish1702]

​@@ColinFoxExactly, fans tend to not push for massive lore breaks in the name of diversity.

[@martindixon54]

@@ColinFox They're also the people who cry loudest that "gatekeeping bad" whilst showing precisely why gatekeeping is, in fact, a very, very good thing.

[@TheProgressingPilgrim]

“Even in literature and art, no man who bothers about originality will ever be original: whereas if you simply try to tell the truth (without caring twopence how often it has been told before) you will, nine times out of ten, become original without ever having noticed it.” -CS Lewis

[@andrewboyer7544]

Martin would probably turn his nose up at Lewis. He probably thinks he's a better writer.

[@rangerstedfast]

@@andrewboyer7544 If he scoffed at Tolkien, then definitely

[@NateO123]

Man Lewis has some phenomenal quotes tho. My favorite is the one about tyrannies exorcised by moral busybodies.

[@andrewboyer7544]

@@NateO123 That was an excellent prediction of today built on a time of people like Kellog.

[@rangerstedfast]

@@NateO123 An extremely relevant quote for our times now. I'm very often reminded of it

[@RealYRM]

A decade or so ago, I didn't think there was any change GRR Martin would die of diabetic complications before finishing his Ice & Fire series, but now I think he could live to be 150, and still die of diabetic complications before finishing his series.

[@stevesherman1743]

No, odds are he won’t see 2030

[@Simon-xc5oy]

I would put money on the fact that if he dies before he finishes the books, the publishers will get someone else to finish them off. And that someone will get the whole lot done in less than a year....

[@GIBBO4182]

“How dare the fans expect me to write the next book in the series…it’s only been a decade since the last one! How entitled are they?” - George, probably

[@ramonserna8089]

He doesn't owe you a book do

[@ArnoldJudasRimmer..]

​@@ramonserna8089why start them then? 😂

[@firstlast9846]

Right message. Wrong person.

[@jhonatancock2302]

@@ramonserna8089 then nobody owe him money or attention

[@ramonserna8089]

@@ArnoldJudasRimmer.. Because he wanted to, and will finish when and if he wants as well. Leonardo Da Vinci left a ton of his work unfinished. Been a fan doesn't mean you can pressure an artist. In that sense I do agree with him.

[@EarlMcManus2005]

The fans aren't toxic, they just got tired of being taken advantage of.

[@No-One-of-Consequence]

Hear hear!

[@nicklibby3784]

Yup, exactly. Everytime I hear a fan defend George saying "he has no obligation to finish the books, he can do whatever he wants, you should be grateful for what you goy and expect nothing from him, he has no obligation to finish the books for you, it is his life he does whatever he wants, you can not tell or force him to do anything ". And im just like: okay? The fans are NOT obligated to be happy with georges progress, neither are fans obligated to be happy with him or even be fans. George Martin is NOT obligated or owed a fanbase.......fanbases are earned and maintained. If George does not want to finish the books then he should not expect a fanbase, or for anyone to hold him in high regard like Tolkien who wrote the lord of the rings. If george doesn't finish his main series his books will be forgotten. The PEOPLE decide who is successful and who gets supported. George rr martin is not owed or obligated to have a fanbase. It is ridiculous he gets angry & trash talks fans for simply asking for only a UPDATE on the book he's been writing for well over a s decade. Like, George, you cant expected your fans to be happy with you or support you if you don't do what they want. George is NOT obligated to finish the books, the same exact way people are NOT obligated to support him or be fans of him. George wants his cake and to eat it too. You can't expect people to not be upset when you've done all you done, if you dont like it then appease the fans George, or just deal with the fans giving up and not caring anymore. Stop expecting the fans to be happy with your progress when you claim they shouldn't expect a ending from you and should be happy with whatever they get.

[@No-One-of-Consequence]

@@nicklibby3784 They should teach a course based on this comment in all BFA writing programs.

[@hope-cat4894]

When I think of toxic fandoms, I think of fans sending threats to actors for being married and "ruining their ship" or hating an actor because they play a villain (because they can't tell fantasy from reality). Fans being upset when a show or movie devolves in writing isn't toxic. As long as no one is threatening to hurt anyone, fans are allowed to talk to each other about the negative feelings they have about an IP.

[@ralphwoodruff]

Seriously, my biggest complaint is just the complete abandonment of the really good series that made the person famous. It’s not even as though fans are criticizing the books - they are criticizing the failure to put the time in to complete it. GRRM has dilly-dallied for the last decade and put out other TV productions, books in other genres/series, wrote blog entries, attended conventions, etc. He is upset that people have a legitimate complaint against him and he doesn’t like himself for it.

[@crowtservo]

Yep, I think of the assholes who treat Anna Gunn like shit for playing Skyler White. I would be thrilled to meet her because she was on one of my favorite shows.

[@matthewronsson]

What was once referred to as 'customer dissatisfaction' is now called the oxymoronic "toxic fandom'. Where once, 'the customer is always right' is now "If you don't like it, you're toxic". They demand that dissatisfied customers must be "fans" of their poor product or service. I wonder how they react to poor work or service at a restaurant or a product that fails, then listen to how they should gladly accept and support it, then get called as being "toxic" when rejecting that absurd proposition.

[@bdleo300]

Yep. Like your favorite restaurant serve you poisonous soup. Literally toxic. And you must be thankful and enjoy the taste! don't even dare to complain or you are 'toxic'. Not the restaurant, nor the soup, no, no... you are the problem.

[@KiwiSpartan01]

"Those arena toxic fans, they're passionate" - Henry Cavil

[@brontosa5351]

Arena?

[@vanessac1721]

Aren't ​@@brontosa5351

[@ladyalaina42]

Henry said fans are not toxic, they are passionate.

[@LordVader1094]

@@brontosa5351 OP meant to say "aren't"

[@tomigun5180]

He's right. Btw. the term "toxic fans" was created by angry toxic people who aren't fans of anything but their own neo-Bolshevik woke ideology.

[@cheshirekat8273]

George RR Martin's legacy is an unfinished book series... and that's the main critic that people have against him. That's not "hate", that's a "what the heck are you doing?" reaction.

[@Deridus]

Mr. Martin is just a giant troll, physically, metaphorically, and literally. Hell with him.

[@jindrichdolejs623]

That's not what he wrote about, he wrote about fans celebrating flops

[@Guigley]

*critique

[@michaelwills1926]

@@jindrichdolejs623because his mouth runs constantly instead of his pen hand, and by now the concept of schadenfreude is inescapable

[@Deridus]

@@michaelwills1926 So very true, ain't it?

[@ravensthatflywiththenightm7319]

GRRM is literally procrastinating. First he was taking cheap shots at Tolkien and his legacy, and now he's taking cheap shots at his own fans who are legitimately concerned that he's probably gonna DIE before finishing the damn book.

[@nont18411]

Samwise Gamgee 👉🏼 Samwell Tarly J RR Tolkien 👉🏼 George RR Martin Battle of Five Armies 👉🏼 War of the Five Kings And he still has the audacity to slander Tolkien

[@kensummers2894]

GRRM will be forgotten in 50 yrs, Toilken has lasted 100 yrs already, and will be remembered a 100 yrs later, GRRM will not be remembered. Their is your difference.

[@SylverWWA]

Then let him pass away and never finish the books. EVER. When he bailed out from the production the series after season 5 and he did not even finished Winds of Winter, it was quite obvious to me that GRRM has no F-ing clue how to finish his story. Or he had a draft idea, but he was not sure if it is going to be good enough. And I would even bet money on it that he let Weiss and Bernioff finish the story deliberately, so that he can check if that their version of the ending is ok, then he will mirror it in his books, like the lazy bastard he is. That did not work and he is still sitting idle on his arse. So sorry, I could not care less if he finishes the books or not

[@nont18411]

@@SylverWWA I know that he has no clue what he’s doing when he admitted that he regretted killing Robb and how he should have given Robb his own POV before things went down.

[@ravensthatflywiththenightm7319]

@@donovanchilton5817 Alt Shift X and his buddies are probably right - GRRM is hoping to procrastinate long enough so he doesn't have to finish it.

[@johncressmanci]

Martin: "I know fans made me rich and famous! But BEING rich and famous is just so much more fun than appreciating fans!"

[@lowlygrinder2977]

His books made him rich and famous. You act like he just had fans giving him money for doing nothing.

[@ApplesandDragons]

@@lowlygrinder2977 Exactly. This community has reversed the logical sequence of events in a way that only the most entitled, ungrateful, egocentric narcissist could. It has taken on all the characteristics of an angry mob. Alone, most of them would never express these attitudes out loud because they're so embarrassing.

[@Lee-vk1xy]

@@ApplesandDragons That gives me the impression you've little or no experience with fandom.

[@theamaranthineman574]

@@lowlygrinder2977 That's right, he got rich and famous because of the people who read his books all those years. And now that he's even more rich and famous he's basically telling those same fans to go f*ck themselves. He's an asshole who enjoys his fame waaaaaay too much. More than actually writing his books.

[@brainiac.computer]

“Everyone in my band, treat the fans the way they need to be treated. Because without them, we’re not. Without us, they will always be.” Ronnie James Dio

[@georgiche5969]

Great words of Great Man! F

[@ikept_the_jethryk2421]

George sounds like the captain of the titanic: "we used to be able to talk about how great transatlantic cruises were, and now all anyone talks about is icebergs and drowning! I'll just grip the wheel and complain about the passengers"

[@ephraimwinslow]

Toxic fandom = fandoms who want what they want rather than what they're told to accept. Seriously, that's it.

[@danielclark-hughes692]

Exactly right, we don't hate people, we hate crap writing.

[@chrisw6164]

Don’t worry, they’ll never stop gaslighting people into thinking “toxic fandom” is real.

[@chasehedges6775]

@@danielclark-hughes692👍💯💯💯

[@chasehedges6775]

@@danielclark-hughes692 Exactly how I feel with Modern Star Wars

[@chasehedges6775]

@@danielclark-hughes692 THIS!

[@JM-hj3sm]

"fAnS aRe So ToXiC tHeSe DaYs" *Proceeds to throw his hat in with people who will literally cancel him for being a white dude*

[@buddykerr1]

He's another useful idiot who will be shocked when he gets discarded

[@Deridus]

Man is a giant troll, metaphorically and literally. How people haven't written him off as a lost cause is a marvel to me. He's not even that good of a writer, IMHO.

[@nichoudha]

What's there to cancel? The next book is never coming out. He cancelled himself lmao

[@RetroProg]

@@Deridus I've always thought he needed a better editor as he's let the story become this huge nebulous mass. I think its got too big for him to hold together.

[@Deridus]

@@RetroProg Exactly so. Ever read Turtledove? Dude has a dozen characters at a time but there's always a little bit of a time jump. Dude can do a full year of warfare in a few chapters, kill off and replace some folks, but always keep the story moving because the viewpoint characters virtually never interact. Martin can't do that because they're all intertwined all the time. If he had focused on, say, Jon, Sansa, Arya, and the false queen, it'd have been managable. The project could still have been completed, but not by a waste of space that is Mr. Martin; it's simply too big.

[@evelic]

George is slowly falling out of grace and he will be rememeber as the author who didnt finish.

[@CleverGirlAAH]

Or drops an epic sized ball.

[@colossusslayer1234]

If he's remembered at all.

[@LordVader1094]

@@colossusslayer1234 He won't be, I expect. In 20 years, who is going to remember Game of Thrones except a few people who were there and will tell you it was an unfinished crappy mess on all fronts?

[@Simon-xc5oy]

@@LordVader1094 Yes. I am sick to death of him. The bloke is a tool. I remember seeing his books kicking about in the shops before the Tv series and did not pay much attention. Then when the last one came out the hype and publicity was epic. I noticed it but was still not drawn in. Then I watched the first season of Game of Thrones. I was enthralled. It was pretty good. So I went out and read all the books. And I thought they were ok, with a lot of padding and...I dont know...something felt a bit off to me, like they were just not as good as that first season of the Tv show. And to this day I and millions of others are still waiting for the next book, never mind the completed series of books. And I bet they cant live up to the hype. Reminds me of Half Life 2 a Pc game that came out when I was 34. It did new things with graphics and physics and was amazing. It ends on a cliffhanger. This year I am 55 and there is still no Half Life 3. Valve are utter...utter snakes. There have been some episodic content and spin offs but no competed story or trilogy.

[@TheMaleRei]

@@LordVader1094 People in the genre will absolutely remember GoT, books and show. Normies will go - "Oh, right, that's the show the the incest and sadistic boy king and the zombies and the blonde dragon lady, right?" GoT *will* be remembered in the same way that, for lack of a better term, "landmark" books and shows are remembered in their genres... Forever War, Ender's Game, Starship Troopers, Foundation --- All of these are Sci-Fi classics in the West. The Normies may know one or more because of a movie title or a TV title, but nothing more... The fans keep something alive. The normies will move on to the next big thing.

[@CxerRy96]

I mean, he's just a sad old man at this point, becoming rich and successful realistically didn't do anything for him, he's still remembered as that guy who hasn't finished a book in over a decade whose franchise was run into the ground by the most disastrous decline in quality in television history...

[@diogovieira5563]

He must be senile. Its best just to let his work die.

[@leonrobinson8180]

If George RR Martin's a failure, I'd love to see how "successful" you are. Using your logic, Trump's a failure because he failed to win the presidency a second time.

[@ZeldasMask]

I dunno GoT went and to crap but HotD is still good

[@nightmareTomek]

I wonder if the show and the toxicity that it brought wasn't what killed his motivation for this series. I read that he was getting death threat fan mail because his book was late I think already 6-7 years ago. He was writing other things. Even if his biggest project is going snail speed, he's still quite successful.

[@CxerRy96]

@@leonrobinson8180 if you actually read what I said you will notice I never called him a failure so I don't why you felt the need to insult me

[@brijor6ff7]

I started reading the first book on Christmas day 1996 when i was 14 years old. I'm 41 now. Let that sink in. Does he really expect that i still care about the next chapter to this story??

[@Ziegfried82]

It's like Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series but the difference is Robert Jordan was at least trying to finish his overly drawn out series before he died.

[@MrGister9999]

You would still read it.

[@Cowboycomando54]

Stop writing social media rants George, start writing the book.

[@newtpondskipper]

One of those is hard to write and one is easy. Guess which one he's going to do.

[@kingofthorns203]

Has he blamed Trump yet for his lack of output?

[@SvendleBerries]

@@kingofthorns203 Give it time, its still early into election year lol

[@AEB1066]

He can't write a conclusion because he jumped on the woke train and if he writes a book that doesn't take a shit on the previous works his woke friends will turn on him and if he writes a woke version his fans wont buy it and he'll face criticism there too.

[@spikegilfer1997]

@@kingofthorns203 I would say "Not directly" but I don't read all his SSM. So for all I know, he does on the regular. From what I recall, he does view Trump as something of a boogey-man figure. I just know when the book comes, I'm not going to need to hear about it from his blog. The news will find me.

[@joelt2002]

13 years. 2011 was his last book. I started Song of Ice and Fire thinking it was a trilogy. I had read some old reviews during a internet search back when it was intended to be a trilogy. At the time I was reading several ongoing series and just wanted something complete that people were raving about. Got half way through book 3 and realized there was no way it was going to wrap up. I started following his "Not a blog" back then to check on updates for his next novel. Took about 2 years before Feast for Crows came out for me, it was a long wait. And it was the longest release cycle for one of his books at that point, as the previous had come out every 2 years roughly. He promised fans that he had written a massive book and it just kept growing, so he decided to split it into 2 books: Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons. He stated that both books were already done. That Dance with Dragons would come out 6 months after Feast for Crows. Similar to what Jim Butcher did with Dresden Files in his last two books. Except it was a lie. Feast for Crows was released in 2006. Dance with Dragons came out in 2011. 5 years, even longer than it took him to release Feast after Storm. I do creative writing as a hobby. I understood it as him losing interest in the series. I gave up on him as an author and wrote off the books. When the TV series was announced I folded and bought Dance with Dragons and read it. I naively thought that with the TV series being made he would be motivated to get off his ass and finish the books. We know how that turned out. "What happened?" Song of Ice and Fire was intended to be a trilogy. He also intended to do a time skip about half way through the series, which probably would have been book 2 for a trilogy. When he dragged it out with his epic he found it hard to do a time skip. Thus Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons dragging out. He started brainstorming and writing the series in 1993. At which point he had been working on the same fiction with the same story plans for over a decade. He got bored with them. It didn't help that fans on the forums figured out all his major reveals and twists based on his foreshadowing. The Stark Children were all supposed to be adults by this point in the story. He doesn't have a means of getting them to where he wants them without a time skip, but he refused to do the time skip as he felt there would be too much going on. He also spent Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons doing world building more than progressing the story. Which shows he's not interested in the story anymore or he's meandering hoping he'll just work through it and come up with something good. It doesn't help that HBO is giving him all the projects he could want to distract him from finishing the story.

[@JustExhumed]

I went to a book signing for Feast as I was a massive, massive aSoIaF fan, and he said most of Dance was written and it would be out "within a year". If you're interested I actually really enjoyed Feast but thought Dance meandered and should have streamlined the story instead of expanding it. I still believe Winds will be released but there's no chance of the final book.

[@joelt2002]

@@JustExhumed Well it could be finished by someone else. As Brandon Sanderson did for Wheel of Time. But yeah, at the rate he's going there is no way the series will be finished. He also claims he can finish it in two books, which most fans are skeptical of. There is just too much to wrap up. As they mentioned in this video, he needs to bring on someone now to help him write. He could even use the excuse that he has too many projects and needs a "under study" to help him get such a monumental task finished. No one would care. I can only assume his ego won't allow it.

[@Lee-vk1xy]

You got further than I did. I got half way through book through and realized it was a soap opera and I don't like soap operas. My wife and son tried to get me to watch the TV series but picked the battle scenes which they thought I'd like. They were abysmal. No real respect for Martin or those behind the show.

[@KadayiPolokov]

Don't give him a pass, HBO aren't giving him projects, he's choosing to work on them of his own accord.

[@joelt2002]

@@KadayiPolokov No pass is given. He intentionally screwed around for 5 years before the tv series became a thing. I was just saying that HBO is helping him procrastinate by giving him excuses for him to use. He's lost interest in his story and is struggling to come up with a satisfying way to progress it from where he wrote it. He needs another writer to come help him. He won't though.

[@grandmufftwerkin9037]

Martin seems to subscribe to the school of thought of: Consume product, and then get excited for next product.

[@zkilla2924]

No thats literally the complete opposite of his school of thought on this

[@TT09B5]

@@zkilla2924 Not on his books per say but on franchises in general. That you should consume whatever new movie/book/game is out simply cause its new and that any form of feedback is "toxic". His book ending is probably just the same or worse then the shows. Its probably why its taking him so long, tons of revisions.

[@zkilla2924]

@@TT09B5 ah i see. That does seem to be his sentiment. And yeah im assuming all the pressure and expectations must have him terrified to release something that wont live up to that. I honestly feel for him on that. But blaming the fans is definitely wrong

[@kensummers2894]

Dude, Martins been like that since 1996 with the first book, my buddy owned a game shop. Martin WHORED his IP's to the highest bidder years ago, board games, dice games, card games, artists, posters, everything under the sun. We laughed back then sitting around the games tables, about how long it took for him to write, we laughed that he was just a giant anime/gamer geek/ etc like us who just happened to write a book that was successful. You have to remember he was a screen writer before his "ONE" series GOT got huge. He makes product to consume just like what he puts in his mouth

[@grandmufftwerkin9037]

@@zkilla2924 Really? He's made statements dumping on people for not liking current iterations of Staw Wars, Star Trek, etc.

[@Shiftdougler]

The guy is depressed. He’s old with no kids, he can’t motivate himself to finish his magnum opus, and most of his contemporaries are dead.

[@JustTooDamnHonest]

Well that was his choice and now he is whining and b*tching about it like an old hag.

[@nicoleackerman205]

Well most of his problems are is own fault.

[@JustTooDamnHonest]

Well who's fault was that?

[@bdleo300]

GRRM is toxic.

[@LordVader1094]

These are all problems he's created for himself due to his utter laziness

[@DeltaEcho303]

Us: "Hey, George! Finish the dang book!" George RR Martin: "Can't! Mean people exist!"

[@DanReyesB]

Imagine creating something beloved by billions of people and then bitching when they want more. Just write the damn book, George

[@adv8nturenick]

Billions.

[@mkultra2456]

Imagine saying imagine, the gayest meme of all time. Uh oh I just said.

[@Klaaism]

Not just that. He's under contract. He's accepted money for it. He has profited from the very people he now lambasts. Tbh Im one of them.

[@lightingthief4482]

​@@mkultra2456sh@t it

[@TheBranchez]

He is incapable of finishing his book. Whatever end he writes will be heavily criticized and he himself is 100% to blame.

[@TNM001]

honestly, the work is finished. he sold it to TV and it got finished there. ppl just didn't like it, end of story.

[@Edino_Chattino]

​@@TNM001I didn't think so at first, but after so many years, the chances of him scrapping the book and starting again because everybody hated the TV ending seems very plausible.

[@TheIndianaGeoff]

I think he can't, because it's a story without an ending. It's about history in a fictional world and like the real world there is new history every day.

[@Deridus]

I don't think he even wants to finish it. At this point, he's just enjoying the controversy because he's a giant troll. Hell with'im.

[@pn8937]

@@TNM001 thst is totally incorrect, for 2 reasons a) the books and the series have diverged too much over the years, 75% of the plots just can't end the same way as in the show, like Sansa was never married to Bolton's son, the golden company is not just a mercenary company but followers of an old Targaryen house branch, Euron is actually a wizard, Dourne politics are kinda different etc. b) the problem of the series finale was not the end by itself but its set up, Daenerys didnt just snap, she flirts with delusion from the books that are already out and I doubt that the omni knowing being Bran has become will just be given the iron throne the last minute due to Tyrion's orating abilities. If those setups are better written the same exact end will work, I doubt that a veteran novelist cant see that.

[@TheScarletSlayer]

(fans who have standards) Creators: Do I smell toxicity?

[@Frozen_Death_Knight]

Considering how much George is thinking about his impact on the world and his legacy, he sure has done very little to actually secure his legacy as a prolific author by finishing his flagship series and ensuring that the TV show that made him world famous was delivering a satisfying conclusion. The more I get to know the man through his words and actions, or lack thereof, the clearer it becomes that he does not have the strength of character nor the capacity to finish his life's work. George will never be comparable to the likes of Tolkien. That man was a professor, a husband and father, a linguist, a historian, a poet, and an incredibly efficient writer whose body of work will be discussed for centuries to come. Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire on the other hand will just become a footnote in the Fantasy genre for the simple fact that the author has allowed his own creation to fall into ruin through sheer neglect. Remember this, the time for the next book to come out since the last one is fairly soon going to take longer than it took for Tolkien to write the 1st edition of the entire Lord of the Rings trilogy. Really think about that next time you throw shade at other authors and call your fans toxic, George.

[@nont18411]

Yeah, but have you ever thought that the reason Tolkien is inferior to George because he didn’t write tax policy, incest and rape in his novels?😂

[@LordVader1094]

@@nont18411 Which is funny because incest and rape do show up in the Silmarillion, but Tolkien treats it with some actual taste and respect akin to old myths unlike GRRM who practically wanks off to it.

[@SliverRogue2012]

Honestly, seasons 7 and 8 have taught me i’d rather have no ending than a crap ending.

[@Ptmkn]

I'm taking George's rants as an admission the show's ending is the actual ending and now he doesn't want to write the rest because he knows people will not like it. Rants like this is him trying to tell himself he isn't the provlem, it's the fans that are for expecting a good ending.

[@asarishepard8171]

Its not the place we're characters ended it was the knee jerk pacing the showrunners did to throw them there. No storytelling no pacing just enjoy bye!

[@landrypierce9942]

Even if it was, the ideas of the show could have been executed more effectively. Really just any foreshadowing at all.

[@macmcleod1188]

The shows ending is good but it's the build-up to the ending that was bad with the exception of Arya being the one who kills the white king. Foxwood have believed the nearest descent into madness if she had actually descended instead of diving headfirst off of 180 ft platform. And the ending with bran would have been okay if it had been done less jarringly. And Jon Snow should have killed the white king but that would have been very cliched storytelling and it seems something more in the Game of Thrones style would have been for Jon Snow and area to fight the white king and weaken him and then some random dude Spears the white king from behind.

[@evalramman7502]

Yes, that's probably all true - although, I think he would make the ending make more sense than the showrunners.

[@carlrood4457]

Some of it probably, but some of it actually really can't be due to differences in who's alive/dead in the books vs. show. I don't want to spoil, so I won't go further. I think the main problem is as a writer, his tendency is more towards world building and expanding the story, not bringing things to a conclusion. For example, D&D didn't really care about mess Daenerys left behind in Essos. Sure, leave mercenary with zero governmental experience in charge and just a few thousand mercenaries to enforce the major socio-economic changes she implemented with her dragons. George actually cares about that.

[@MrLolguy93]

Martin is the anti-Tolkien, a dark reflection of the man and the embodiment of everything that Tolkien despised

[@Phoenix0F8]

I feel like Lewis would beat the crap out of Martin if he heard him ripping on Tolkien lol

[@incurableromantic4006]

The thing with Tolkien is that writing was just a hobby for him, something he did for his own amusement. He genuinely didn't care if anyone else liked it, and never even dreamed of it being a "franchise" with corporate hacks telling him, "We really need a new TV series to set up the new movie that's in the works".

[@stillcantbesilencedevennow]

100%. Between his dependence on "shock factor" to keep folks into his books, to his outright vile treatment of fans and readers, he truly is the anti-Tolkien. Martin is a figurative Morgoth.

[@Near_Pluto_]

Honestly this just seems to be 100% correct. From the man himself to his writing style. Kinda spooky

[@nont18411]

There is no character arc in Martin’s book because he will just kill them off before any of them could do anything meaningful.

[@undead9999]

12 years, my man, 12 years. I'm not counting "Fire and Blood" in this, but Dance of Dragons was from 2011, it is now the beginning of 2024, so rounded up it's 12 years and some months

[@nont18411]

3 presidential terms 2 years longer than World War 1 and 2 combined

[@Myrddin8453]

Eh. I'll give him Fire and Blood. I enjoy it as much as the other books. And (so far) has given us a good series. Writing is hard. I understand. Still... If it takes so long people are worried you might actually die from old age...

[@Vmac1394]

​@@Myrddin8453 He screwed up with the Dany story. Her story is totally divorced from the rest of the story and even in book 6 of 7 she'll still be 2000 miles from the rest of the story. There's no way to satisfying way for the Meereen story to wrap up and get Dany into Westeros to actually interact with the rest of the story. It's giant gordion knot, where there's no worthwhile way to untangle it and the only real option is to cut it in half with a sword. George will never do this and so the story will never be completed.

[@letoffboss654]

@@Vmac1394 I remember thinking this when I read A Dance of Dragons how is he going to wrap this up in just two more books. Turns out he probably never will.

[@sunsin1592]

And Dance of Dragons already sucked so the bar is pretty low for whatever comes next.

[@AlexanderTheMedium]

His fans made him, he grew filthy rich because of them, he owes them this story. Robert Jordan is the perfect example of an author who respected and loved his fans.

[@Klaaism]

RIP Robert Jordan

[@oswaldkite2106]

No, HE made him, he's the one who put in the work. The amount of work it took to write it is vastly more labour intensive than the work it took for someone to read it. If no one loved what he created, he wouldn't have sold any books to begin with

[@sheriffjbunnell2392]

His hard work was repaid. No fan has paid him in advance for his next book. He owes you nothing. Stop being an entitled a-hole.

[@TRENCHESandTREADS]

@@sheriffjbunnell2392 ...his publishers disagree with that sentiment lol. He has literally been paid in advance for said books. Stop defending mediocrity.

[@TRENCHESandTREADS]

@@oswaldkite2106 Work doesn't always translate to profit. There are some absolutely astounding pieces of fiction out there that have never led their author to fortune or fame, so it is totally appropriate to say his fans made him, *because they did*.

[@stalhandske9649]

What disparu said around 5:30-7:20 reminded me of a proverb: "you meet an asshole in the morning; he makes you angry and your day is ruined? He probably really was an asshole. You meet a dozen assholes instead? Then you're the asshole."

[@grandmufftwerkin9037]

Gee George, do you think maybe stalling out for a decade on releasing your next book might leave fans with some complaints.

[@ephraimwinslow]

Coasting ain't easy.

[@firstlast9846]

Bro stop spamming

[@grandmufftwerkin9037]

@@firstlast9846 Come stop me.

[@grandmufftwerkin9037]

@@firstlast9846 I'll post whatever I feel like.

[@dominicwilliams214]

I would say give him time to write but ten years feels like the amount of time it would take to end the books. So unless he's writing something the size of an encyclopedia I can't really back him up. Also he should communicate more some times it's better to just tell everyone your struggling to write it. It's not easy writing a book especially one alot of people are looking forward to reading (alot of pressure not to mess up). So he just should have told people to wait and not bark up his tree. At least that's what I'd do.

[@nont18411]

Looking in the hindsight, ASOIAF seems to be the patient zero of “forcing the audience to root for villains who killed the beloved heroes in a spiteful way”. If it’s 6 years ago, I would say that Ned Stark’s death, the Red Wedding and Oberyn Martell’s death are the examples of killing off the heroes done well. (Jon Snow’s death doesn’t count because GRRM broke his own rule anyway by reviving him) But right now? Since GRRM’s blueprint of S8 ending was that Jon never got to fulfill his arc against the Night King because “it’s too cliche”. Those aforementioned deaths seem like the cases of GRRM being bitter and mean-spirited against the concept of heroism. He hates seeing the heroes win, especially those in Tolkien novels. That’s why he wrote (and didn’t finish) ASOIAF in the first place mainly to spite Tolkien. GRRM walked so that Neil Druckmann and Sweet Baby Inc could run.

[@Phoenix0F8]

You touch on some excellent points, and I think it goes even further beyond despising the concept of heroism. He doesn't think the audience "Deserves" narrative satisfaction. Which sort of begs the question of why even bother to read his shit? If you have an author who's actively spiteful toward his readers and wants to make them unhappy, it seems to me that this is sort of the equivalent of an abusive relationship. I've already gone through this with several of my friends who got sucked into GoT and even after a lot of the narrative tragedies they still assumed it would lead up to a satisfying ending. Not to big myself up too much but I've been interested in writing for a long time and I have a fairly good sense of intuition; these two things combined allowed me to smell what was going on with GoT from a mile away and as such I kept my distance from it. I have no interest in being blue ballsed by an author for no fucking reason. I have better things to do with my time. It's sad because Martin *does* definitely have some worldbuilding chops and some pretty cool ideas. But I just disagree with his entire methodology of narrative subversion. It's a similar deal, of course, to Last Jedi. It's a trick an author can pull once and then it suffers severely diminishing returns once the audience is onto the trick.

[@ThirtytwoJ]

Because he despises himself for not being anything like the heroes and strong males people want to read about.

[@ThirtytwoJ]

@@Phoenix0F8 im a big scifi and midevil mythology fan but by the end of season 1 i couldnt be bothered to give a crap. The people into that show are the toxic narcissistic degenerates ruining all media. Like how Spartacus went from mostly awesome seasons 1 and 2 to cant go an episode without dudes making out on camera for the rest. Fk funding people that hate you..

[@suckieduckie]

This seems like pure projection more than anything.

[@black-aliss]

This is my increasing suspicion as well. And you forgot what happened to Catelyn in the books. The books have a message of "the concept of good and morality are so passé" that slowly but surely warps the reader's worldview. Because there's no ultimate vindication of the heroes, there's nothing to hope for. At best you hope that the good guys won't be tortured and humiliated or made a fool of TOO badly. All your identification with the characters, those little moments that lift your spirits will be used to crush you and hammer into your head a message of futility. The brutal foreign overlords will come back. You will win by the skin of your teeth, and only the weakest, most undeserving one among you will stumble by accident into power. This is the reality of this world, and your world, and wishing otherwise is contemptible and naive. Books like Martin's are designed to leave a bad taste in your mouth, forever. Whereas Tolkien did quite the opposite. I would argue that Sanderson does the opposite as well, which is why after Martin he was such a breath of fresh air. Clichés and all. Give me a sincere cliché any day, instead of this lip-curling cynicism.

[@Wanda711]

He's been blaming his problems on "this year" ever since 2020. It's always a lament for how unfair it was that the past year didn't bring good luck.

[@Deridus]

Man's a serial lazy bastard. Hell with'im.

[@casualcausalityy]

I was thinking about House Of The Dragon which was surprisingly well-received. Why all the whining George?

[@earlofdoncaster5018]

Martin's Publisher: So George, have you been working on your book? Martin:: Oh yes! I have been hard at work. Martin's Publisher: So what have you done? Martin: I added a comma! Martin's Publisher: Is that all? Martin: Oh no! I removed it! (Repurposed Oscar Wilde story)

[@rhonwenbaker2448]

I started reading this in Ryan George voice and was swiftly corrected 🤣

[@Geminias]

The major shift is that the consumer is now the critic. When I was a kid, critics could trash a movie and most people didn't even read the reviews and just wanted a good popcorn flick. Most movies and tv series were new franchises and you didn't really have anything to compare them to. Now, the critic is the consumer and the old critics are paid shills - the truth is what it is - you put out a product people like or they'll go somewhere else.

[@TheodoreBotman]

Finish the damn book.

[@ephraimwinslow]

Seriously, who cares what he thinks? He's going to expire before finishing his magnum opus. He is the literary equivalent of a great set up to a joke with no punchline.

[@grandmufftwerkin9037]

George will never finish the series.

[@go_rilla262]

Never gonna happen.

[@RockoBam1]

He doesn't ever know what to write, that's why he kills off characters all the time. All out of ideas, even the books were incredibly vague about the White Walkers plot. He's highly overrated.

[@JJ-nu8qi]

He wants it to be good and he's having trouble .

[@EnsignRedshirtRicky]

George R Martin only gets the second R (a fake one he added to pretend he is the new Tolkien) back when he finished his series himself. No more ghost writers doing his job for him.

[@kroon275]

At this stage he is more J R (R) Hartley

[@Hollyclown]

The only people being toxic are the ones who expect the fans to stay in line and enjoy whatever is fed to them.

[@jeremymalinoff3822]

"its the toxic fans fault"-incompetant writers 2016-present

[@glados4765]

Have you ever seen him at a convention? Its extremely disturbing. He tells the people around him "follow me minions" and not in a joking way. He says it seriously. Id love to see his hard drive scanned.

[@tusse67]

He did the opposite of writing himself into a corner, ending up on an open field continuesly expanding the number of characters and plot lines. Appears he lack the ability to narrow it down again.

[@brettloo7588]

+1

[@jameson32]

Incredibly well put.

[@williamrodriguez296]

I would agree he may have expanded the books into a place where it may be considered unmanageable to some. However, his penchant for killing characters that time was invested in and throwing curveballs at readers makes any situation manageable. Simply cut down the expanding story lines by either combining them or cutting them off with a surprise result. There are entire threads that can be cut at any time with what may be considered realistic ends that may make a reader look back at the time invested as overly long in hindsight, but still come to a satisfying end because most of the threads have antagonists invested in preventing them. You can't discount the realism of bad luck, random events, and the machinations of others bringing threads to an end. This may sound over simplistic, but it also requires good writing to make those consolidations make sense and be satisfying. Just a quick example, but wouldn't the rumor of an undead Catelyn Stark bent on revenge reaching her enemies illicit a massive response that would most likely result in her, and her band being wiped off the face of the earth? Wait, what? Catelyn is alive still? THAT IS A BIG PROBLEM!!!!! She could rally the North!!!! Send an army and kill her and whoever is with her. End of that thread.

[@steveouk90126]

To be fair, there's only so much European history the man can remix with his name on it.

[@Balrog2005]

Best comment.

[@RRRRRRRRR33]

It sounds easy on paper, to copy the war of the roses and insert dark fantasy archetypes on it... it's not that simple, people forget how the first three novels are legitimately great. But it's almost undeniable how the last two novels declined in quality, George shifted to religion instead of the war of the roses and the results were pretty bad, feast for crows is a horrible novel (and the hype only made things worse)

[@steveouk90126]

@@RRRRRRRRR33 My criticism of his recycling history stands.

[@RRRRRRRRR33]

@@steveouk90126 Kinda. You made it sound it's too easy to just "recycle" history, if it was that simple, writers such as Bernard Cornwell and Conn Iggulden were about to achieve mainstream popularity ages ago

[@steveouk90126]

@@RRRRRRRRR33 At what point did I claim "simple"? The best plagiarisms (The Force Gets Woke, et al.) require at least a modicum of effort to obscure their nature.

[@Sarx88]

We are not toxic. George is disrespectful to the fans who made him famous. Respect would be giving us the complete story we are invested in

[@asarishepard8171]

Don't forget season one almost didn't make it. The book fans pushed this to everyone they knew that got it noticed by the average TV goer. So he absolutely owes us.

[@ultraviolet540]

@@asarishepard8171undoubtedly

[@The_ScapeGoat]

How fitting that GoT will end just like most of its characters: unfinished, and without meaningful conclusion.

[@ultraviolet540]

There’s so much potential tho, that’s what’s so sad about it

[@smithself411]

Have a friend who used to frequent Dragoncon in Atlanta, GA. He was there in a year when Martin was having a signing. He recounted a lady came up to Martin with a box explaining she ran a bookstore and these were copies of preorders for his next novel. She then asked what she should tell her clients about the delay. According to my friend’s recounting, Martin never answered her question.

[@oodanna500]

the motto of Hollywood, "Obey and Pay"

[@LittlePhizDorrit]

As always Mauler and Baggage Claim make an amazing point. George is in a bubble. The media has basically been claiming that everybody who criticizes anything they create is "toxic" "istic/phobic" or "far-right" and they claim it over and over until everyone thinks it's true, without actually considering what was actually said. No one in Hollywood does research or looks things up, they only do headlines and tweets. The narrative says that fandom is toxic....so that is what it is. And they all MUST be right, nobody can be making a bad product....so anyone disagreeing them must be wrong and toxic, that's just basic logic. Which one of these people is going to go online and read, watch, or listen to all of the critiques of films/games/tv and concede a point? Which one of them has the mental ability to look at their work and think, "that wasn't great actually, we upset the fans with what we made, and we should probably not do that again".... That guy who directed DragonballZ? Can anyone think of another?

[@loydjenkins2241]

Looking at George, I would say his brain has changed due to health and age. His book will never get finished.

[@AxleTrade]

I don’t put all the blame on him since age can really do quite a number on anybody but that’s the sad reality of it. The story will never get finished and he’s too old to put in that kind of effort at this point.

[@furrymessiah]

Friggin GRRM and Patrick Rothfuss are in a race to see who can not finish their book series first

[@benconforzi5696]

Amazing, the Author of the Berserk manga put plans in place. In case he was unable to finished his manga. Yet George RR Martin doesn't even bother to finish one simple novel. Shows you which one is more passionate about there work.

[@thomaspunt2646]

Well George, maybe we wouldn't be so toxic if you'd FINISH THE FUCKING BOOK!

[@Apollo890]

At this point him finishing the Winds of Winter won't make a difference. There is almost no chance that A Dream of Spring will ever be written. So even with Winds finished A Song of Ice and Fire will still have no ending.

[@Deridus]

Far as I'm concerned, folks need to move on. He's never going to finish it even if he lives to be a hundred and three. Man got his money and doesn't owe his fans anything. I don't like it, but there's the truth.

[@Apollo890]

@@Deridus I would have a lot more respect for George Martin if he just came out and admitted that he has no real desire to finish a song of Ice and Fire and instead just wants to work on other things. Sure fans would be crushed by this but it would allow them to get over it and move on. It's this whole thing stringing fans along which is wrong. And he has been doing it for years since 2016. In 2019 I think he made the dramatic declaration that if the Winds of Winter was not done then fans had his permission to lock him in a cabin until it was. That was five years ago now and it's still not done. How can this be, the only answer I can think of is that he doesn't really want to write it anymore, if so he should be honest and admit that.

[@Deridus]

@@Apollo890 He's a charlatan, and it's been evident to me since the beginning of GoT. To be honest, I don't understand why more folks don't see this. Sunk Cost falacy, perhaps?

[@Apollo890]

@@Deridus some fans are that invested in the story that they cannot give up hope. A year ago I expressed a similar sentiment to this one fan who had a massive go at me. But the things he said sounded more like he was desperately trying to convince himself rather than me. But there have been so many predictions and theories over the years and some people have invested so much time that they just can't yet accept it.

[@xarfai6124]

I don't like the word "Anti-Fan". It implies that a fan is someone who blindly loves something, no matter what. Fans always also criticized their fandom, if something went the wrong way, because we care about it.

[@ItsaKindOfMagic86]

the non fans that are the normie and casual viewers dont care, they just consume and not care what direction it goes, because they arent invested in it, they will ditch it for something else in seconds

[@phoenix0401]

Nice to see EndymionTv getting a bigger platform. He’s a really thoughtful guy with outstanding takes.

[@ohuckabee]

Recently I've been of the mindset that "toxic" in this context is a synonym for "disobedient."

[@helios0074]

The only thing George is capable of finishing is an all-you-can-eat buffet.

[@josephnjuguna1986]

😂

[@crowtservo]

Hey, I resemble that comment.

[@orangecardman7905]

tOxiC fAndOm DoSnt eXiSt

[@LordVader1094]

@@orangecardman7905 Cry about it

[@TheRagdollrejects]

Dude read Lotr and thought “yeah but what would aragorns economy look like” I hate to quote ERB but “it’s supposed to be fantasy, it’s mean to be UNREALISTIC”

[@Deridus]

Myopic manatee, indeed. . . Almost forgot about ERB.

[@janmoy4670]

Adding to the dumb economy statement, Aragon ascension to king can be seen a redemption of the people of neumanor as they fell to the trickery of sauron in the ages before. For an author who throws shade upon tolkein, he can barely understand surface level meaning of the man’s work

[@nathanjora7627]

It’s meant to diverge from reality in some ways, “being unrealistic” in and of its own would be pretty stupid. Like nobody would accept “because it’s supposed to be unrealistic” as the explanation for all the dumb idiotic choices made by the characters in the GoT TV show. I can appreciate the value of not wanting to focus on the nitty gritty details of the day to day politics in middle earth but given that we’re talking about the same author that would rather invent a whole new herb to explain why the hobbits can smoke instead of just saying “yeah they have tobacco”, I don’t think it’s that absurd to also think about that kind of stuff, and it’s valuable to also have authors that’ll ponder that exact question.

[@deenman23]

to be fair lotr is shit,mostly catholic propaganda

[@Deridus]

@@deenman23 A world set in a fictional universe with fictional creation stories is somehow... Christian propoganda? CS Lewis might have Aslan be a fan-fic version of Yeshua bar Yusuf, but they are no more Christian propaganda than our weekday names are observations of Pagan rituals.

[@YeetmanSkeetman]

Fandoms are awesome. People are so passionate about an idea created by a human being that they band together out of shared love. Just because some get overzealous doesn’t mean that fandoms are a bad thing. In fact, I think those people are the lifeblood. You get deranged people over analyzing IPs and tossing out memes about them 24/7 fueling interest by normies who otherwise wouldn’t go out of their way to dive deeper into fandom.

[@svetlanaandrasova6086]

Exactly. The hardcore fans are the lifeblood of fandoms because those stay in fandoms over time while so many just appear fangirl for few months then leave.

[@TheScarletSlayer]

While he hid in radio, we pivoted to video. Now his medium is getting bloody rare. Hell's been better since he split. Where's he been? Who gives a shit!

[@pubcle]

Fan is short for fanatic. Fans are essentially your missionaries as a creator, they're the ones who spread it more than anything else after the initial marketing.

[@michaelcorrea4336]

​@TheScarletSlayer Salutations! Good to be back on the air Yes, I know it's been a while Since someone with style treated Hell to a broadcast Sinners, rejoice!

[@TheScarletSlayer]

@@michaelcorrea4336 What a dated voice!

[@Cyberleader672]

I love how idiots keeps saying "Well, he doesn't actually owe you anything". Do these people think these books would have sold half as well if we all knew from the start that the series wasn't going to be finished. We bought books because we thought we'd eventually get a conclusion. He absolutely owes us

[@ravensthatflywiththenightm7319]

You're Crom-damned right.

[@shinobi-no-bueno]

Authors owe you absolutely nothing

[@firestarsantos7467]

​@@shinobi-no-buenoExcept, for their sucess and lifestyle, because without us they would literally have nothing. No book sells, no adaptaions of their work and no fame whatsover. Tolkien was the peak of writters, he worked hard, published constantly and he answered all of his fans questions with great enthusiasm and care hence he is still remembere to this very day.

[@chasehedges6775]

@@firestarsantos7467👍👍

[@JJ-nu8qi]

​@firestarsantos7467 You need to read up on Tolkien. He wouldn't like these people demanding he finish.

[@forsakenquery]

"He doesn't owe he anything!!" Then he should give back all the money he earned in royalties from fans who expected he was selling a complete story.

[@Outmode88_music]

The funniest thing about Martin is that he actually believes that hes on the same level as Tolkien and clearly resents him because deep down he knows that hell never create anything as good as Tolkiens work.

[@haydon-ge8dt]

I've read both series Tolkien is good but not any better then grrm in fact. Tolkien could have been better. I imagine if he wrote his book in a different decade. He didn't take chances. To me, L.O.R. is a children's series that is wonderful. But asoiaf is an adult fantasy series that has the potential for a timeless classic. Both are good

[@Draconisrex1]

What 'toxic fandom?' What I see are toxic writers, actors, directors, show-runners and studios destroying fandoms and IPs that they often hate and act as if they're better than the original creators who created those IPs. Rings of Power is a fantastic example as a bunch of diversity-hire hacks gave us THE worst Tolkien adaptation in history, and I've seen most the bad ones!!! The Rankin-Bass TV Hobbit cartoon-movie in '77. The rotoscoped Lord of the Rings in '78. The Rankin-Bass cartoon RotK. All of them are bad, yet vastly better than the Amazon crap.

[@Guardsmen4]

i agree thou i have super soft spot for the hobbit Rankin-bass i prefer it to bloated runtime of the live action movies like my god 3 parts for one book JEbus

[@sunsin1592]

The cartoons are fine.@@Guardsmen4

[@graylykan2739]

Did you play Lord of Ring: Gollum? I heard that game's really bad.

[@_XR40_]

Is there a term? Like _"Celebrity-itis"?_ The idea people seem to get that the "fans" are mere peasants that are supposed to just accept any rubbish that gets thrown at them. This is exactly how the feudal-system collapsed. The feudal system worked fine and was stable when it was based on _Noblesse Oblige_ (The recognition that the ruler had obligations to the ruled), and started falling apart after the introduction of the "Divine Right of Kings" philosophy. This is exactly the same process that is occurring in Western Civilisation today - Celebrities, Politicians and even writers blatantly see themselves as a modern Aristocracy, but seem to have forgotten what happened to the historical Aristocracy...

[@pflume1]

Soon the economics are going to end for them. We are mostly in the end of the "movie star" era. Nobody goes to movies because of the actors.

[@ploppill34]

The last season of Game of Thrones even broke him😂😂😂😂

[@fightersweep]

There's also the fact that if we PAY for a product and said product is shite, then it's our right as consumers to call it out for what it is.

[@bdleo300]

I guess consumers are not obliged to enjoy every s... itty product, otherwise they are 'toxic'.

[@BobMcDowell]

"It puts the finished book in the basket or else it gets the hose again"

[@ifu138]

It's funny how creators these days will cater to a certain kind of "toxic fan" and deride another.

[@casualcausalityy]

While deriding the average fan more like, dark times we're witnessing

[@ariamaddison257]

Toxic Fandom = I’m too rich, fat, uninterested and lost my spark for finishing the book I promised people therefore it’s all your faults. Said as he’s slowly moulding into the chair he’s blogging from.

[@JohnStevens-y6e]

Never got into GoT and the fact the author seems to have contempt for his fans just cements that decision.

[@Deridus]

Wise decision on both parts, there.

[@Dare_To_Game]

My favorite new theory is that George RR Martin had a ghost writer, who is dead now, and so he is just stalling till he dies.

[@sbsuduxhxuisi]

then who wrote fire&blood, you?😅😅😅

[@zeropoint546]

George, I will never, ever, EVER read another one of your books.

[@kingofthorns203]

In the Drinker's accent and inflection: "F*** off, writer!"

[@Jimmie2429]

At least the “toxic fandom” care enough to dislike and critique the slop they are being served. Better than apathetic indifference.

[@ApplesandDragons]

You jackals can't even get your story straight. One moment you say TWOW is late, and the next moment you say you're being served slop. But I thought you weren't being served anything? Make up your mind. It's an incoherence that proves that you're criticizing just to criticize, not because you actually love the author or story or readers.

[@kraiden3]

I am a 46 year old from jersey. So I was in highschool when I found fantasy books and began reading heavy fantasy novels and having an author from my area made us love GoT. So I am now a grey bearded man and the story ain't done. So it's getting a bit crazy for me and my Fandom

[@Darkgun231]

On the one hand, as a writer myself, I know it can be hard to finish something. It takes a lot of work to do so. Plus the editting and revisions after the first draft. On the other hand, I think that if a man has written a multi-million dollar series and has gone on record promising to finish it, then people can be understandably miffed when he keeps putting it off. If GRRM was writing as a side-gig, not finishing could be understandable. But no, he's got more money than most people will ever have, he can focus all of his time working on writing what he promised.

[@kraven94365]

If George spent as much energy writing as he does bitching and stuffing his face the book would have been done 9 years ago.

[@Scoley01]

Same guy who criticized Tolkien for bringing Gandalf back. Maybe if you stay off twitter George you could finish the book.

[@Deridus]

He'd have to get off his fat ass and stop making bubbles first. He's functionally retired, so he'll never actually do it.

[@AncestorEmpire1]

Not worthy of the RR name.

[@incurableromantic4006]

"I got the prose of a pro, your sh+t's sub-par. You're a pirate, you even stole my RR!" - Tolkien

[@DonVigaDeFierro]

The will of R.R.

[@Aikurisu]

At the end of the day, he's just an edge lord who was greatly inspired by War of the Roses.

[@black-aliss]

At first I really thought he must have tacked on the second R to have a surface resemblance to Tolkien.

[@septimiusseverus343]

Also heavily copypasted from Maurice Druon's Accused Kings and Tad William's Memory, Sorrow and Thorn.@@Aikurisu

[@VerilyViscous]

George, I know you're here. Finish the damn book.

[@loufher284]

"TOXIC FANDOM" are normal nerd conversations that companies don't understand and use to bully people into seeing things their own way.

[@heinricho]

Whereas Melkor spent his energy in envy and hate, until at last he could make nothing save in mockery of the thought of others; and all their works he destroyed if he could.

[@rangerstedfast]

Yes yes, but what was Melkor's economy like?

[@LordVader1094]

@@rangerstedfast Very industrialized. Basically fantasy Military Industrial Complex :)

[@insomnijack7528]

Yeah curse those toxic fans and their insults like "please finish your book" and "it's been 13 years already please finish your book".

[@simonhadley8829]

It doesn't matter if he finishes the book. The GoT momentum is gone and most people have moved on.

[@Nomihc]

You took the words right out of my mouth good sir.

[@Sylmarys24]

Yeah, i'm predicting that if he ever does release this f**king book, it won't be nearly as good as any of the earlier novels in the ASOIAF series. Game of Thrones is barely gaining any new modern fans because they're all becoming adults long after season 8 arrived.

[@ML-cc7gj]

Also, the books lost momentum even before this wait. 1-3 were great, 4 was kinda hmm, and I keep forgetting that there is and that I’ve read the 5th.

[@synapse913]

@@ML-cc7gj I couldn't even be bothered with the 5th one after the 4th one. He injected too much of his personal politics into it.

[@beowulfsrevenge4369]

If he was honest and said he'd just lost interest and was getting some help to finish it, fine. But he's not even doing that. He's not even finishing the book. When he talks about legacy, these books and the show are his legacy. If he never finishes it, his legacy is incomplete and will only be judged by the show. By the way, fans have argued about stories, books, plays, movies, and every other type of entertainment since the beginning of time. It is human nature to argue/discuss what we enjoy or what we dislike.

[@doghouse6413]

He is always coming up with something new to complain about. Just write the damn book, George.

[@COMMANDandConquer199]

His fans that he loves to insult and sneer at are the reason he's relevant at all. We who have bought his books which earned him the TV show, and brought him his fame and fortunes are the only reason he can live the way he does now rather than writing part time while working a real job like the vast majority of authors. The guy acts like it's natural that he has what he has, like he's owed the respect, and the time to dick around instead of finishing his work. When in reality it's US who are owed, we are owed a proper ending to the story that we have invested our time in money in.

[@danielclark-hughes692]

Id wager the book is finished but he's so concerned about not sticking the landing he won't release it.

[@Drakonis.Imperial]

You're making a rather huge assumption ... that George R. R. Martin can actually jump.

[@ephraimwinslow]

100% yes. He got a taste of celebrity during season 1-4 of GOT, and then he got a taste of infamy when it went up in flames. Clearly he hasn't got the stomach for more of the latter.

[@chrisw6164]

Maybe. But his publisher won’t leave that money on the table if the book really is finished. Plus George likes big paydays too, clearly.

[@Muxxyy]

​@Drakonis.Imperial ...but he can jump. We all saw him on that trampoline. We wish we could unsee it, though.

[@DAZzler3K]

@@Muxxyy That's not him jumping, that's the trampoline trying to get rid of him. "Go away, lazy scum, go away!" 😁

[@MicahDarkFantasy]

While I’m really liking House of the Dragon for what it was able to do, and while they already announced a spinoff about Aegon the Conqueror, one thing that I would ever want out of the world of Westeros is an ending that it deserves and not the one that we got from the last two seasons of GOT.

[@brettloo7588]

I am out on any GRRM content until 1. He finishes ASOFI 2. Reliable people review it as good

[@whatisreddin7367]

HOTD gets worse and worse every time I think about it. Changed beyond recognition already and its going to get worse in season 2. Its like Stannis all over again, the writers hated him so they made him as bad as possible so that they could make the audience like their favorite character more...

[@randomdude45123]

"The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference"

[@dbsommers1]

No. The opposite of love is hate. The opposite of apathy is passion. You can love or hate passionately. You cannot be passionately apathetic. But love and hate are absolutely opposite. Those that believe otherwise never experienced both. Once you have you understand.

[@dogstick12]

​@@dbsommers1actions speak...

[@dorugoramon0518]

Hatred is love in the opposite direction, insomuch as it is willing evil instead of good. But the will and the personal connection is still there. Apathy is a complete absence of either love or hate, and a lack of will.@@dbsommers1

[@dualwieldroxas358]

Just think about it. In the time for George to not to make 1 single book, Branden Sanderson has completed one of his own series, AND someone else's series

[@LordSluggo]

In the time George has taken to not finish his series, three entire generations of kids have grown up and graduated high school (tail end of Gen X, Millennials, and now Gen Z are pretty much all adults)

[@LordVader1094]

@@LordSluggo And another generation will be born and grow up, and his book will still be unfinished.

[@pa1degua]

6:45 From author Brandon Sanderson there is a profound quote in one of his Books where one character is asking a storyteller what the meaning of a story was and this was the reply he got... "The purpose of a storyteller is not to tell you how to think, but to give you questions to think upon. Too often, we forget that...." -Hoid/Kings Wit That quote sums up much of what is wrong with modern storytelling the modern storyteller wants to tell the viewer the "correct" interpretation of "their" art but that is not how art/storytelling done right works 2 people will be exposed to good art and can come away with 2 different interpretations that day and another another day that is what makes great art.

[@TehAwesomer]

Sanderson is the anti-GRRM... given that he ACTUALLY WRITES A TON OF BOOKS HIS FANS WANT TO READ.

[@JamesRDavenport]

Yes, that is true. Everyone has their own point of view. Including the creator of the work, which is why they wrote it in the first place. However, what the reader takes from the author's work is ultimately the reader's choice.

[@teresa6525]

​@@TehAwesomer Sanderson doesn't just write what fans want. He's the guy who says, I worked a lot on this book, but I also wrote four other books in secret.

[@stuartgrantham9969]

We are "toxic" and it's a good thing. We revel in studios' failurs, because it breeds hope that they will realign their future projects away from woke progressivism and back toward honest storytelling.

[@RecluseBootsy]

Nah, the only toxicity is being fed to us in sub-par and over-priced media. Literal fucking poison being stuffed in our throats.

[@deanh7032]

Fans now actively want things to fail because they know it will be more of the same and the only way it reverts back to that which they love is through total failure followed by reset.

[@Lelldorin84]

A man of his lifestyle and age should really try to remain calm.

[@supermechashadowlord]

One of the reasons I don't believe the series will be finished. If - and that's a BIG "If" - Winds of Winter gets published, no way in hell A Dream of Spring will. Time is unforgiving and it doesn't care about our plans, ego or lack of motivation. GRRM's story is a cautionary tale. On the dangers of procrastinating so much that you won't be able to finish your legacy before your time is up. When you're old, you must be accepting of the truth that you probably won't be around for another 40 years or so. Hell, I'm in my 30s and already feel that time is running out. There's no more time to waste being lazy. I don't wish the man harm, but let's face it: GRRM's is in a deadline in his very own life. And that one cannot be procrastinated.

[@tankeater]

Speaking the TRUTH doesn't make you toxic... Ignoring the truth is what makes you toxic 😂🤦‍♂️🤘

[@TheNaum80]

Atleast Robert Jordan had an excuse to why he didnt finish the wheel of time .. he fucking died of a one in a million rare blood cancer.. thank god he left huge amount of notes for Bradon sanderson to finish the series