Drinker's Chasers - Marvel Panics, Nukes Daredevil And Fires Everyone

Imagine a show so bad that even Disney Marvel wouldn't put it out. Well, that's the case with Daredevil Born Again, their upcoming show for Disney+. But is this a good thing, or will we just end up with more garbage?

[@harrydbastard]

The only way they're going to do this justice is to hire everyone who worked on the netflix show

[@kpsk8031]

No, no, no. Season 1 was great then it crashed during Season 2 when it turned into "Karen P. I."

[@ThaYoungChad]

​@@kpsk8031season 2 was great tf you mean?

[@aarontaylor1688]

I thought the same thing. Hire the people that made it work the first time.

[@chrismatteson1312]

They could absolutely do the show without the original crew. They just won’t. 🤷🏻‍♂️ If I were asked to write for a Daredevil show, the least I would do is watch the highly popular Netflix show and set my sights on writing something that would appeal to its fans. To be clear, I’m not arguing against your point, I would be happy to hear the original crew were working on this. But I don’t believe it’s necessary. There are so many people in the business that could produce an equal or even better product, and they just don’t. How these ass hats can keep ruining things and burning money without repercussions, is beyond me.

[@rhinovandam]

@@kpsk8031agree with season 2, however season 3 was great.

[@nont18411]

Can’t wait for “Darré de Vil” directed by Director X

[@jayboy2kay7]

Hahaha. Should be top comment.

[@brentgilliam1209]

You sir win the internet's for today. Drop the mic and head on home. 😂😂😂

[@bertov12]

😅

[@accountnew7030]

imagine if the show was actually good and they cancelled it because it wasn't woke enough 😂

[@phoebea]

Darré de Vil is a blind woman of color who has men constantly telling her she should just marry someone who will take care of her instead of being a lawyer (those bigots!) And, Queenpin is a body-positive woman who is cruel, but since she was bullied for being fat when she was a kid, it's okay for her to be a criminal. She's really just misunderstood, you know.

[@glados4765]

How do you create a multi million dollar franchise? Give Disney a multi billion dollar franchise.

[@zombiedodge1426]

If I ran Disney I'd declare a moratorium on all Marvel and Star Wars projects for a few years, sit back and wait for people to start *wanting* them again, and watch the money roll in five or six years down the road when production resumes. It's like when the 007 series got kind of stale in the late eighties (I actually really liked Timothy Dalton, but audiences didn't) and they went six years without a new one. When teasers for "GoldenEye" started playing in mid-1995, audiences went nuts because they'd had time to *miss* James Bond.

[@jayrae6447]

A different take on a Richard Branson quote: "The quickest way to become a millionaire in the airline business is to start out as a billionaire."

[@danollerenshaw8410]

Television Networks: "We have a tried and tested process proved over 100 years of broadcasting. No need to reinvent the wheel" Disney: "We like square wheels"

[@tomohawk52]

How can these companies keep setting fire to piles and piles of money and still be in business?

[@bruhdon4748]

& still keep doing the same thing over and over again despite how much money they’re losing, I’m honestly convinced they’re fully funded and backed by the government in some way to be a propaganda wing just like the BBC is in England. Disney has just become a propaganda wing of the government & that’s why they just keep doubling down on their politics and agenda despite bleeding money.

[@samanthacarmichael4380]

Creative accounting

[@dimesonhiseyes9134]

They make lots of piles of money.

[@magonus195]

Blackrock

[@Natak222]

Phases 1 - 3 made Marvel billions. Stock also

[@jothecocopop]

Az put it best: they can fire as many people as they want, but if they replace them with people with the same lack of talent, lack of knowledge for storytelling and ideological fan-baiters, then it doesn't mean a damn thing.

[@stormryder4305]

They just repeating the same mistake, aka stupidity.

[@evertonporter7887]

As long as they hire the best, most competent people for those jobs, I really don't care about the politics.

[@jothecocopop]

@@evertonporter7887 Exactly.

[@kelp7060]

@@evertonporter7887 Depends on the message they're pushing. If it's the same as Falcon and the Winter Soldier...

[@boogieboo5085]

I semi disagree with Chris that the producers did One Piece justice, because they "listened to the feedback from the audience. I think the show's success was based on the creator being directly involved and having final say and sign-off on everything.

[@Fe7Ace]

I semi-disagree with his whole point there. Audience feedback can be useful on rare occasion, but it's only going to be "like air" to lower skill creatives with weak visions and bad methods of internal review. Shows like Assoka didn't need audience feedback to correct, they needed basic competence from the people making it. It's suppose to be the most introductory of writing competence to write character arcs, stories that have meaning and purpose, etc. When the audience is acting as the creative by committee you've already failed. The audience will always move the art towards safe and generic; their main contribution to Assoka would be "more Anakin", "more lightsabers".

[@Ravengagepvl]

The only reason that show succeeded was because of Oda. If he had given them full creative control we would have a Luffy x Sanji x Nami love triangle.

[@michaelwelch9123]

​@@Fe7Acea better example of Chris' point would be the character of Spike on Buffy. Audience response was so overwhelming, Joss Whedon was pretty much forced to return him to the show, and the show was probably better for it.

[@orgANGmo]

Netflix doesn't care about the audience. It was the creator that vetoed the shitty script they did.

[@AyumuNarumi75]

@@michaelwelch9123 I think the same thing happened with Family Matters. Steve Urkel was so well liked by the audience that he became a main character.

[@TotallyWorkingg]

WOOOWWW. The fact that they released she hulk but thought daredevil was unwatchable is a real mind fuck

[@och70]

If they replace the fired writers and directors with more diversity checkbox activists, instead of going the merit-based hiring route, they're just prolonging the failure of this latest project.

[@white0thunderwhite0thunder71]

For double the price.

[@weldonthatcher8891]

Bring Steven S. DeKnight back!!

[@SmilesPolitely]

Somehow you KNOW that Matt Murdoch will end up as a transsexual black dwarf who’s actually deaf in real life (just because), and is now a social worker because lawyers are the scum of the Earth.

[@jacobmatthews7524]

daredevil: stillborn

[@mikepatton8691]

I have the feeling that that's why the showrunners/directors were fired, they were all hired to check the diversity boxes and took the show in a "woke" direction. After all the recent failures they have seen the light and realized they need to actually make a good show as opposed to preaching the "message" and hoping that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results just isn't working for them.

[@dannypalin9583]

When Daredevil turned up in No Way Home, I was hyped as hell and couldn't wait to see him properly integrated into the MCU. Back in 2021, I still had hopes for Marvel. Spider-Man's third movie made me think they'd bounce back from the other duds. It was just a bad year for them and Daredevil would help improve things. Then I saw Matt Murdock in She-Hulk, and they dropped the bombshell that Foggy and Karen weren't coming back in Born Again. At this point, I don't care if it's cancelled.

[@jimthar17]

Matt Murdock. You see MM. Daredevil never shows up in NWH.

[@dannypalin9583]

@@jimthar17 Matt Murdock is Daredevil.

[@simpleton9218]

@@dannypalin9583He probably wants it to be called Peter Parker No Way Home💀

[@dnd6075]

the foggy character ruined the show, it was poor forced scripted comedic relief. daredevil couldve been an action/drama/thriller and not an action/comedy, another... action..... comedy.....

[@Joxshuxa]

He was fine in she hulk, he doesn’t need to be a depressed loner boy every damn episode u morons. Foggy and karen are also coming back

[@xFlareLeon]

Saul Goodman was only going to be in one episode. ONE. But he was such a breakout character that not only did he become a main part of the cast, he got his own spinoff.

[@nealm6764]

I guess we can agree to disagree on whether that was a good thing. I always found the character ridiculous and a waste of story and screen time. It seemed anytime they needed to pad some episodes run time that just did the "Let's bring saul in for the usual eye rolling shenanigans!"

[@Locke19901]

I'd argue better call Saul matches the quality of breaking bad, and in some ways is superior. Real talented team all around there.

[@blacklivesorblackvotes2985]

@@nealm6764 it was a very good thing tbh. Better Call Saul was brilliant.

[@zombiedodge1426]

Same thing with Steve Urkel (admit it, you found him funny at first), Frasier Crane, The Fonz, Eddie Murphy on SNL, and around 500 classic "Simpsons" characters. All were one-off or background characters who became regular cast members and in some cases had the whole series retooled around them. For Urkel they quickly wrote and filmed new scenes and edited them into unaired episodes of "Family Matters" to strike while the iron was hot. Of course, that can lead to its own problems, where a beloved character is overused and the audience gets tired of him. The "Seinfeld" producers' smartest move might have been using Jerry Stiller as Frank Costanza in only 28 episodes (out of 169 in total).

[@william4996]

​@@nealm6764I'd agree with you, kind of, if it wasn't for Better Call Saul revealing why he's such a weird, wacky wild guy. He clearly builds up this alter ego to work through the emotional stress he has due to his brother and his own decisions. Saul Goodman comes off as a coping mechanism.

[@UnnamedBridgeburner]

How is Disney BOTH cheap and have the most expensive movies ever made? These things don’t mesh. Where the hell is all this money going?

[@earlofdoncaster5018]

Stupid penny pinching costs.

[@Xxgxxaxx]

I think everything Disney has put out is money laundering To quote the movie The Producers “you could make more money off a flop then a success”

[@mariobadia4553]

Coke

[@sita9071]

Executives’ vacations.

[@alazkaalazka6087]

Disney has more money than any studio. There just being cheap to be cheap.

[@MrBrndin]

The time to panic was around 4 years ago

[@speculative]

Instead, they choose overconfidence...

[@JammaLamma]

Nailed it

[@bruhdon4748]

Lmfao yeah they’re a bit late on sounding the nuclear meltdown alarm

[@filipstysiak]

not really, 4 years ago they were the kings of the world. time to panic was around the release of falcon and winter soldier

[@user-xx6vy9ri8p]

In 2014, when Force Awakens and Jurassic World were written.

[@mgk2020]

They need to be careful with Daredevil becuase there will be a direct comparison to the Netflix series. You don't want people thinking these properties are better when others do it. Disney+ can't afford for people to be thinking "they should just put these on Netflix."

[@nealm6764]

The ridiculous Ben Affleck movie was probably better.

[@simoncarsley2031]

It will be a disaaster if all there other show are an indicator ...dare devil reborn is already doomed.

[@grahamfarmer4167]

The suspension of disbelief that made me fall in love with movies as a child, is being annihilated with the tomfoolery of corporate greed and laziness.

[@odtheman1]

Does any one else think that because the executives thought the show was bad might mean it was actually really good 😂

[@moviefiendz]

Nah. Too many episodes, no mention of Karen, Foggy died offscreen, no suit up til episode 4, all of this sounds shitty. Also it was a procedural show instead of a crime fighting show.

[@user-ee7bz3ip2b]

Maybe they did the She Hulk version of Daredevil and someone actually watched it.

[@HerculesBallsInc]

Keep in mind that there are many things that everyone agrees are legitimately bad. 'Jack and Jill' was hated by everyone and rightly so.

[@nobillismccaw7450]

It’s Disney. Race and gender swap for everybody.

[@ArbiterofMankind]

@@moviefiendz WTF FOGGY DIED OFFSCREEN?!?!? PISS OFF.

[@ColinFox]

Chris's point at 5:43 is chef's kiss perfect. The ability for an old-school TV series to get weekly feedback from the viewers allowed the producers to improve the show over time, something that you don't get if you bang out a whole season in one shot like Netflix etc do.

[@jacobmatthews7524]

supernatural used to change season arcs midway through seasons based on fan feeback.

[@phaolo6]

Btw, if they wanted feedback, they could simply allow it. It's not like it's not possible because it's on a streaming service.

[@salinium]

Let’s be honest, the only REAL reason they’re retooling DD is because they can’t fall back on the excuse of “you’re a racist sexist bigot!” when it inevitably fails because he’s a white guy 🙃

[@christopherkelley1664]

You're assuming the show wasn't already about the new, improved girl boss Daredevil

[@ifu138]

I mean they could always try and pull the ableism card.

[@fatfreddyscoat7564]

Aha, but they can say “but he doesn’t know he’s white”

[@blacklivesorblackvotes2985]

@@ifu138 Honestly, no they can’t because 1. daredevil is popular as hell(part of which comes from the fact that he’s blind and still kicking ass), and 2. They’ll just say “he still has his white privilege to lean on” They’re stuck.

[@blackosprey2219]

All they gotta do is cry racism because a supporting character is a minority.

[@JustaGuy_Gaming]

Another big problem is short series and lack of second seasons. It's hard to get invested in any show knowing there are only about 8-12 episodes per "season" and there may very well never be a second one. Or if there is, it's years away because they wait to see if the first was successful before even starting it. People grow tired of trying to get into shows just to find out it never goes any where and gets canceled.

[@wisnia9145]

This! I got into the habit of waiting for a series to get 3 seasons, because its not worth watching 6 to 8 episodes, then waiting 2 to 3 years for nothing.

[@verazollinger6862]

This! Or even six episodes. If you produce shit that does not get second season, don't expect me to watch it

[@speculative]

@@verazollinger6862 Right! That's not a TV show, that's a miniseries.

[@JustaGuy_Gaming]

@@verazollinger6862 The worst has been anime lately. Every two bit "New life" show gets a season in where they cram in several manga's worth of story into 8-12 episodes and then nothing. They rush the first season, solve nothing and rarely get a second. Anime has turned into nothing more than a "teaser trailer" to get people into the source material.

[@verazollinger6862]

@@JustaGuy_Gaming really? That's a pity. From Anime I got totally into One Piece on Netflix, I want to see original,but I have nowhere

[@respectbossmon]

Over twenty years ago, Farscape featured two creatures that were a kind of space whale, the leviathans and a budong. Doctor Who spinoff, Torchwood, had a space whale well over a decade ago. And a few years later, Doctor Who also featured a space whale.

[@roscoewhite6347]

On the one hand, I think it's a good sign they are at least self-aware enough about Daredevil's reputation to make sure it is a good product. On the other though, they can't just burn the candle on this indefinitely. Episode 1 of the Netflix series aired over 8 years ago, meaning Charlie Cox is close to a decade older than when he first took on the role, and Disney is essentially starting the whole project over right now. The man is obviously a great athlete and I'm sure has access to a lot great training and resources, but he's still not getting any younger for such an action based role.

[@paultoseland9524]

Has it really been 8 years already?

[@tailedgates9]

Charlie Cox at Disney: "Fans know that you wanna use me! But you don't get to destroy who I am! You will cancel this show, and you will spend the rest of your miserable life, in your bubble, knowing that you'll NEVER have Daredevil! That this industry rejected you! It beat you! I BEAT YOU!"

[@marcoferraro6169]

The part about the lack of using a pilot and a vetting process was very interesting. I didnt know Disney didnt do that sort of thing.

[@NathanCassidy721]

I don’t think ANY studio with a streaming service is doing that based on the fact that shows like Velma get a second season pre-ordered. And all of this is just purely to get content on the service.

[@kadourimdou43]

Disney is really making things on pure belief. As the feed back has been that the M-She-U was rubbish, for ages. Yet they still insist on intersectional feminism as the foundation of the creative process.

[@manwiththeredface7821]

For some reason the infamous "nein nein nein" scene comes to mind from the movie Downfall, after the Austrian painter with the funny moustache has to face the reality of their situation.

[@deeem2628]

Oh, you mean about the 'most lied about man in history'?

[@lytalo]

the big advantage TV series used to have over movies as the many hours of a typical series of 20 plus episodes vs 2 hours of a movie. Old TV used to be over 30 episodes. And the other advantage was the anticipation effect of the weekly release. When Game of Thrones was big, we used to talk about it over lunch on Monday, speculating what might happen next and in general anticipated the next episode. Streaming went to 6 to 8 episodes very two years and release them all for binge watching. Makes shows easily forgettable.

[@ballyastrocade5672]

That "short season every couple of years" effect even impacted broadcast-TV shows like Doctor Who, really. Leaving aside the other issues with Jodi Whittaker's run as Doctor #13, the fact that they shrunk the seasons to 10 episodes, plus a "holiday special" (b/c god forbid we call it a "christmas special" anymore), went two years between seasons 11 and 12, then went over a year between 12 and 13 *and* S13 was only a mere 6 episodes... Yeah, that gives the audience a lot of time to forget about the show, especially if they were already becoming disenchanted with it to begin with due to the increasingly-poor storylines.

[@XXusernameunknownXX]

Never understand why streaming services abandoned pilot season. Instead they invest massive amounts in producing whole seasons with creative teams that are unproven. They could literally get instant feedback down to the second and they don't take advantage.

[@grease6314]

Good move in my opinion. There is very very high expectations on daredevil.

[@docsavage8640]

Trouble is, the people they hire as replacements will probably be just as bad if not even worse. Kinda inevitable when you hire to check victim/oppression boxes instead of based on actual ability to do a job.

[@williamking7631]

You gotta think Jon Favreau is sitting back and laughing at Disney's expense!

[@momzwrite]

What's the context, here? I thought he was still involved with Disney via Star Wars projects

[@williamking7631]

@@momzwrite nope!

[@momzwrite]

@@williamking7631 how about more detail? He worked on the Mandalorian, was there division at that point?

[@kpsk8031]

They could have worked on better scripts BEFORE filming... but I am not one of the geniuses at Disney.

[@DoingFavors]

Man I hope they show us the canceled episodes through a leak. Let us see the disaster movie.

[@ChrisW164]

Keep in mind, the Avengers were created to keep track of random characters. Iron Man, Thor, Ant Man, Wasp, Hulk. Then several issues later, the team switched to Cap, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Hawkeye and it worked just fine. But how do you translate that to a movie franchise?

[@RJALEXANDER777]

Why wouldn't that work the same way? You release a new film or two that establishes the new characters, then bring out an Avengers movie every three/four years or so as the big blockbuster event. That was the strategy from day 1, it's only stopped working because Disney went woke and fumbled the ball on establishing new characters.

[@ChrisW164]

For the sake of argument, ignore the problems of *woke.* You get actors and directors and crew who are sick of this role, or who die. You're spending tons of money on even the stupidest movies and have non-creative corporate staff who get their say in what happens. A comic about a new character can be done in a couple months and if it bombs, the creative team moves on with their lives. Nobody's created characters for Marvel and DC in decades, but complete nobodies can invest a few thousand dollars on their own comics. That's how the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were created. Marvel and DC can't do that. They're stuck with their old intellectual property focused entirely on men in tights punching each other. In theory, you could build a movie franchise out of that, but reality is far different. And then there's the problems of being *woke.*

[@christophertaylor9100]

Stan Lee did that because he was having trouble figuring out how the Avengers could all be together for an adventure in that comic when the individual members in their comics were off doing stuff in different places or even times.

[@ChrisW164]

Yeah, the point was simplification of everything. Lee, Kirby and Ditko could get the work done or they could keep track of everything the characters were doing, but they couldn't do both. Marvel wasn't big enough to have people whose job was to keep track of everything. One thing I love about comics is that one person can do everything, or just a handful of people. Even the cheapest movies need dozens of people involved.

[@franciscodanconia4324]

Marvel already did that well in phase 1.

[@dalemanolas5994]

Disney just hired a new DEI chief which is a clear signal that nothing is going to change. Blackrock effectively control 17% of Disney and they like woke propaganda. Perhaps Nelson Peltz can get some seats on the Disney board but it's still going to be a tug of war between his group of investors and Blackrock. Could Peltz gain enough power to appoint a CEO who would clean house at Disney? It seems unlikely. Anyhow, Daredevil's cancellation merely shows that the writers were appallingly bad. It doesn't mean that Disney has a way to make a good Daredevil show. Even if the original Netflix writers came back, they'd have their project tainted by Disney's DEI requirements. Imagine all the oxygen thieves at Disney who'd be clamoring to change characters to increase "representation" and all the other horseshit? It'd be a nightmare for the writers. Better to stay away from this dumpster fire. The reality is that Disney was deliberately turned into a propaganda machine. How could a propaganda machine suddenly start producing quality entertainment?

[@JustTooDamnHonest]

It is like you leave your house to go on a 2 week vacation and then you come back and your house is completely trashed and that is what Disney is.

[@thundercatshooo600]

I REALLY want Disney Marvel to release 'Daredevil Born Again' in it's current form. What could possible go wrong for Disney and the MCU? HAHAHAHA!

[@Fantasyremix]

Release it as a Mystery Science Theater 3000 type of show hosted by Deadpool and She-Hulk.

[@mindandbody9427]

I imagine it must have been a Thundercats Roar / Aquaman King of Atlantis type of flop.

[@stormryder4305]

Yup. You're right. Their targeted audiences are minority freaks, anyway.

[@calebemiller]

Release it as a comedy, and put in laugh tracks.

[@stuartspencer2161]

It would be too hard for Disney to blame audiences with the -ism of the week, when the main character is a straight, white male.

[@omnomgibletts2099]

These companies are doing streaming poorly. The intelligent thing to do would be to license out these shows to other streaming companies. This would actually make them some money back on the show. Disney should be licensing Star Wars, Marvel, etc. shows to Netflix and other companies. As soon as the season is over, allow other companies to stream it.

[@Bugsy1234567890]

The biggest problem these days is the way criticism is viewed by the industry. Positive comments - valid. Negative comments - invalid/"toxic fan base".

[@sita9071]

You can add the neutral comments to the negative comments section as well. If the comments aren’t overly positive, then we get accused of being toxic, bigoted fans. Like, nah man, I just don’t care about your show.

[@MD20-20]

I would wager Disney fired the writers and directors of Daredevil because it wasn’t woke enough…

[@HappyDude1]

The 80s, and 90s did not cared about all that stuff thats why it was so fun to watch this will come back. And it will dissapear again once it gets to wild History always repeats itself

[@cchavezjr7]

@@HappyDude1 the term "politically correct" came about during the 90s, yes, it was there...

[@HappyDude1]

@@cchavezjr7 Yeah it started when married with children was on the air 😁

[@cchavezjr7]

@@HappyDude1 the right was against Married with Children but the left was starting to really get offended over wrong labels and today is an extension of that. Back then it was getting hit on both sides lol

[@mrteabaggervance]

My thoughts exactly

[@heraldofwar]

If they really want to make any more good shows they need to hire out these properties to independent people or a studio like those who did the original Daredevil for Netflix, as long as these shows are under Disney they will remain woefully written and despite the huge budgets remain worse than CW shows. But we all know that's never going to happen to we can only expect more awful marvel shows!

[@TheresaMayPM]

Agreed the writers strike was a gift to the studios. Disney managed to muddle through their last financial call using some one-off transactions that helped massage the numbers. That's not happening next time, and the return of Peltz has lit a fire under Disney. They can't fix the crap that's already in the can, but they can try to lessen the damage coming down the road. The strike means they can attribute this to the strike, not having to admit it's because Iger and his board have run the company into the ground and are cornered.

[@abavariannormiepleb9470]

The irony is that streaming would technologically enable great “feedback loops”, but that’s not something the studios wanted. In the past I enjoyed visiting the IMDb forums after watching something, but Amazon killed them shortly after completely acquiring the platform.

[@EvilDoresh]

They don't like feedback loops. They'd rather do these "after-show" things where they tell the audience exactly how they are supposed to feel about the last episode

[@guyvizard549]

Y'all should do a separate Open bar/After Hours on the subject of "endings." Specifically, the difference between well-written and badly written ones. Chris's examples made me think of that, and how so many things I watch have a crammed together wrap-up or open-ended last shot. (For the purposes of sequels and continuing seasons, I understand, but it's more than just that.) As a writer, sometimes endings are tough, to be sure. Look at Stephen King... But I feel like we see a lot of good ideas and concepts that end up being boring and meandering until a rushed "cut to black."

[@SuperCrazyEstonian]

"You are hearing what the audience talks about..." Thats a great point! Supernatural, a well beloved show, listened to their audience and the character Castiel on the show because fans loved him. And it was the right thing to do. The character was supposed to be in just a few episodes.

[@mattmark94]

too bad that the ending of Supernatural was awful

[@cristela4034]

@@mattmark94 Yeah, such a waste. But at least the ending doesn't ruin the entire series like "Game of Thrones" and it's still enjoyable to re-watch the show, especially the fun stand alone episodes.

[@michaelplowman8674]

@@mattmark94 Yep, I tell anyone who hasn't watched the final episode to skip it. You don't need it.

[@mattmark94]

@cristela4034 it does ruin the entire series, the brothers pretty much did the impossible... and then Dean gets killed off by a vampire juggalo. What a joke.

[@stenzel27]

@@mattmark94 Yeah they wrote themselves into a corner. When your main adversary is the omnipotent and ominscient god of all things, it's a bit of stretch to write any kind of believable victory. And then for Dean to go the way he went, I believe it was meant to be seen as a kind of reward, but it was still really dumb.

[@svetlanaandrasova6086]

I remember how in NCIS Mcgee was supposed to be in few episodes but fans loved him so writers made him one of the main characters. Same with Castiel in SPN. And to pilots,TBBT also had a different pilot without Cuoco and Penny,with different character, Kathy, but fans hated her so they changed it. And that was early 2000s. God how could things change so much and for the worst? When did fans become the enemy? Television used to be for us.

[@Harmonica821]

Let it be known that Daredevil's final moment in universe was not defeating Fisk and Bullseye and reopening Nelson & Murdock with Karen; one of the most satisfying endings to any marvel thing. His true ending was going back to NY on foot after banging She-Hulk.

[@Tribulatus_Rex]

Next up on D+: "Daredevil: Walk Of Shame"🤔

[@thelegendarygaynite]

They don't need to change Dare Devil, that show is the best thing Marvel as ever done.

[@dcmastermindfirst9418]

Lol Daredevil is just a cheap imitation of Batman. I never got the hype.

[@Xapheion101]

​@@dcmastermindfirst9418just because the character is a knock off doesn't mean it can't be a good show, have you watched the netflix defenders shows (daredevil, punisher, Jessica Jones etc)? If not you should, it's some of the best superhero shows made this far.

[@dcmastermindfirst9418]

@Xapheion101 Defenders was garbage and Jessica Jones was a chick flick TV show. Can't take marvel seriously. And Punisher is also just a Batman knock off. I prefer the original.

[@Aacezay]

​@@dcmastermindfirst9418You sound exrreamly ignorant

[@thelegendarygaynite]

@@dcmastermindfirst9418 not here to argue just stating my opinion but I don't see how dare devil is a rip off of Batman. His origin story is different and so is his "super powers". All the super hero stuff isn't that great but DC is the worst when it comes to the screen, with the exception of Nolan Batman 2 and...kinda 3. The fight choreography in dare devil and Punisher were top notch and the villain's were pretty cool. I don't even like dare Devil as a comic book hero but the show was good.

[@DUKEzors]

BC providing the Parks and Rec example was great. Chris Pratt became a superstar based on his role being expanded. All the streaming services are preventing new stars from getting their early reps to become relevant in the broader industry.

[@theviewer1423]

the reaction to Ironheart about 14:00 was hilarious but so true

[@opiateutopia]

Speaking of instant feedback, Disney could "leak" a rough cut of the show as it is and watch the audience point out exactly what they like and don't like. Seems like a no-brainer move if they scrap the entire thing anyway

[@texasbeast239]

Retroactive test screenings? To at least use this disaster as a learning experience. To have the humility to ask for help.

[@svetlanaandrasova6086]

I agree. And if people hated it, change it.

[@LosLS2]

the irony about the the streaming not using the feedback is that they've never had more verifiable information. they literally know how many people have watched how much of what part of each show. They can see exactly when people start and stop watching. This is information that their predecessors would have paid good money to have.

[@clumsyturtle8544]

Aw man I forgot how much I liked treasure planet, it got some hate but I liked it and compared to the rubbish we get now it probably seems like a work of art.

[@zombiedodge1426]

1999-2002 was the golden age of sci-fi animated movies which flopped but are now fondly remembered - Atlantis, The Iron Giant, Titan AE and Treasure Planet.

[@tylergoodman3560]

At least they're finally fixing their mistakes, so I call it a victory. 🎉

[@ItsaKindOfMagic86]

lol "fixing mistakes" ? that remains to be seen, and how many times has disney marvel burned fans now on the counter meter?

[@Calebgoblin]

I can't tell if I'm glad or disappointed that these people finally learned about the "no" word

[@seeinred]

I like how Baggage neatly summed up most things i hate about streaming service model

[@Pengochan]

I think Disney does a great job entertaining me so well with all these shows i never even watched one episode of.

[@macsyn4558]

Love Mauler even more now for talking about Farscape. Loved Treasure Planet. And even the X-Men has space whales.

[@christopherkelley1664]

Plus Star Trek TNG.

[@itchimo82]

Good discussion- Retta became part of the fixed cast on Parks and Rec in a similar fashion. I like the "feedback loop" description.

[@raythackston1960]

The problem today Chris is that Hollywood writers, directors, etc. are smarter than the regular people in the world. OR so they think...and the reality is they are stupid and all only think one way. And nobody likes their stuff and then these losers then blame it on the watcher. Total mental morons who are self absorbed and hate anyone who disagrees. LOve these vids Drinker...keep all the content coming.

[@brianhunley1825]

“Speaking of things that don’t interest people anymore…” A bold lead-in! I think you pulled it off.

[@justinrodriguez5957]

To play devil's advocate, the feedback loop isn't gone entirely as when they get it and it highly flags that it sucks, they turn around and rely on the -isms or "people who claim it is bad are toxic and review bombing". They dig in and refuse to course correct. And we know they have to have the actual viewing numbers that shows the objective data. I feel like a broken record asking myself "Where are the money men who look at this stuff, look at how much they're spending vs how much they're profitting, and ultimately bring the axe down on heads for the money loss?" Or is it entirely systematic at this point, where certain people with ideologies incompatible with money making have hidden away the numbers those money men use because they so badly want to promote their shit. Believing the world is truly an awful place for not perceiving their turd as gold?

[@jayboy2kay7]

It all leads back to unlimited money from Blackrock etc. promoting ESG scores over literally everything else.

[@defeqel6537]

The money men are at Blackrock probably

[@Fe7Ace]

Yeah I can honestly believe there are money men behind it who have come to see media as a literal method of brainwashing the masses towards their idea of a perfect world, and they are willing to spend a lot of money to that end without return. Making billions off other investments/industries to subsidize their losses in this industry, "changing the world" with movies being like a side hobby to them they are so collectively rich.

[@christophertaylor9100]

Yeah there is feedback but they are simply dismissive and antagonistic toward criticism

[@bobross1829]

I was listening to a writer from the old "Cheers" show where he was talking bout the modern TV landscape and he mentioned the fact that many modern streamers do intentionally put in their "agenda" to "educate" their audience on the issues they care about, and this was a real, 100% thing. It was because their community is 100% behind them doing this and they get pats on the back. This writer did though state that recently many studios and platforms are starting to end this far left pandering as they grossly underestimated what a turn off it was, but that it is still in the process as they only admitted this to themselves VERY recently.

[@Lithilic]

It's been suggested before, but the only way I see a path forward to leverage the Marvel IPs is to pause for like 5 years then come out strong with a reboot of their A tier superheroes and stop trying to make things work with their B and C listers after the market has gone stale.

[@curlybob17]

Never forget the space whales from Futurama. Dr. Zoidberg's white hair needs to be remembered.

[@WidSilson]

Never 4git Johnny Z's hair

[@zoddlander]

The reaction from Mr H had when Chris said that feedback is like air for directors, its necessary to exist! I just remember the conversation he had with Director X before this stream! Sometimes some directors seem to forget to breath or breath in the wrong "message"!

[@SpaceCowboy2071]

Daredevil with Vincent D'Onofrio as Kingpin was very good. Just give us more of that!

[@josephkerrigan733]

"No can do I'm afraid. Kingpin got killed by Echo. You do love Echo right? We've got alot riding on you liking Echo so I hope you love that she killed that lame kingpin character." - Very smart D+ Executive

[@asherdales]

The really telling thing about P4 and beyond is look at the articles and videos made about them. In 1-3 there were essays written about theories and tie ins to the comics. Now it's people bickering about pay and audience scores.

[@empiricalsmut9419]

Baggage Claim has such a great smile. Thank you for coming to my TED talk

[@efnissien]

I think Disney may have realized that Marvel is a one trick pony. As The Drinker pointed out, there are trends in Hollywood, and the superhero movie has had one hell of a run, but it's time is running out. Lucasfilm, while tied to Starwars in many peoples minds, can do other projects (Indiana Jones). Marvel doesn't have that, it's tied to a catalogue of printed material from it's parent company and an increasingly 'meh' inducing roster of average superheroes. Marvel need less superhero, and maybe more like some sections of the manga model - where there are scenarios featuring 'normal' people, with normal neuroses and dilemmas. Ok maybe it'll turn into a shitfest soap opera, in fact with Disney involved, probably will.

[@nobillismccaw7450]

Sounds like Echo.

[@cvdevol]

Screw Daredevil, we want The Punisher back!!!

[@ItsaKindOfMagic86]

you wont get him under disney marvel wokeoids you can expect a neutered version of him

[@blacklivesorblackvotes2985]

Screw Punisher, we want Daredevil back!!

[@Captain_Draco]

So, my take away from this is that streaming services should have a corner where they release batches of pilots to gauge audience response, having a survey that you can fill out after watching. That way even if something doesn't take off right away, if the pilot gains tracks and becomes well liked even after a few years they can bring the staff back together to produce a season or more.

[@thelegendarygaynite]

amazon does that sometimes, they will release a pilot and see how people react to it. It's a good idea. Streaming has fucked up the TV show experience, having one episode put out a week is a much better idea than just releasing the entire show.

[@mattsanderson5258]

11:55 Opportunism. If they actually cared about making a good product that people wanted, they'd have done so before now.

[@fubarace1027]

In Buffy the Vampire Slayer, James Marsters (playing Spike), was supposed to have a short arc and die. Ended up people loved him, and he stayed on and went over to Angel as well. Another story in the same vein, the marvel comic book character Wolverine was supposed to be a one off villian for the Hulk. Ended up he was popular, and because this was long before Disney bought them, Marvel responded and kept / built up Wolverine to arguably their most popular hero.

[@EvilDoresh]

Do they even kill characters anymore in these modern Disney+ productions? Any new character could spearhead their own spin-off series, after all!

[@garanceadrosehn9691]

WRT Streaming: What they're doing now is *not* making a TV series, they're effectively making one very very long movie and then splitting it into pieces. Another observation: With the series _"Babylon 5",_ the writer (JMS) listened somewhat to the fans. Not that he was going to do whatever the fans wanted him to do, but what he'd do is pay attention to what they'd say and realize places where people honestly misunderstood some parts of his writing. So in future episodes he'd make a few changes to make it much more obvious what was happening. One example I can remember is that he had a character named "Lorien" who was described as a "first one", and fans thought that mean that Lorien himself was the first sentient life form in the entire galaxy. But that's not what JMS intended. His *RACE* was the first to reach space-travel, but he wasn't the first person in that race.

[@verazollinger6862]

Netflix Daredevil is so good. Just bring everyone back!😊

[@lescorlett4133]

How stupid Disney/Marvel were regarding Daredevil was plain to see. You had a character arc people had followed in a series that was a massive hit and critically acclaimed with two actors at their peak in the lead rolls. The support cast were brilliant, the script writing and storytelling were up to date and fresh, the cinematography and direction were spot on. So you'd expect anyone with a modicum of intelligence to say "Here you go have a bigger budget. We want more of the same but give us a 3 hour movie and you can have Spiderman and Dr. Strange appear aswell. Oh we won't interfere iin anything, honest." How did they fuck it up so badly?

[@BernieTheBoxer]

Yep the Netflix Defenders catalogue was the epitome of how you should go about producing long-form content. When you see what they tried to do to Charlie Cox in She-Hulk was an abomination and if Born Again was staffed by anyone who was in the room during anything to do with She-Hulk then of course it should have never have been commissioned

[@johnmcternan4157]

Lost was a pure organic phenomenon out of nowhere. That never happens anymore. The closest thing is the original Star Wars in terms of sheer wonder, Lost was HUGE internationally in the 00's, as flat as it ended, everything about the initial years of the series genuinely deserves the use of that cringe far too abused word: iconic. Like anything was possible. No series outside BSG has done that since. The setting and premise, huge cast of interesting characters and archetypes, alone screamed epic outside the supernatural. Its amazing it got greenlit at all. I've seen better and more planned series, but I've never seen that that ultimate blend of pure wildness lush big budget setting and "buckle up". It truly made you think the world was over when the button was....well i won't spoil it. The DESPERATE need to contact the outside world. And realising that something was odd about a flashback of Jack at the end of season 3 and working it out why it feels odd. Nothing compared since.

[@ASpooneyBard]

Here's a question: If (IF) Wish is a return to classic Disney fairytail stories, and if that's somehow a huge hit (unlikely I know, but hear me out), would they go back to making timeless stories that resonate with generations, or stubbornly continue making shallow allegories for current day politics?

[@MrBrndin]

Any success just fuels the crap they want to make

[@baxter1252]

They'd pump the profits into the next woke thing.

[@blacklivesorblackvotes2985]

This is what an abused house wife sounds like everyone. “Hear me out” “IF” “would they(he)?” Just let it go and walk away.

[@mrbeans2425]

Daryl on walking dead is another good example of a good character that was added for the show that wasn't in the comics. Pretty sure he was supposed to die early too. But people loved him

[@viszordo324]

Speaking of The Avengers crashing, my mom called me up the other day furious because she saw a trailer for the new Avengers movie and there was NO men, much less any of the characters she and I have watched in the past twenty years. Most normies--and my mother is barely a normie given the lore-heavy discussions we've had--have no idea The Marvels isn't an Avengers movie. And it's going to crash and burn HARD and Disney is going to have to stop and take stock of what the hell they've been doing wrong.

[@Lovicide]

Drew Goddard is what sold that first season of daredevil for me, so his and Deknight's production teams should be the ones coming back for born again.

[@adelucas4824]

Spike in Buffy was supposed to die, but they found out the fans loved him so they kept using him until he became an integral part of the show

[@BrandonHeat243]

And then in the end Spike became a lame shadow of his former self. He went from a badass, hilarious villain to a creepy wannabe Angel. Tragic. Such a waste. At least his move to Angel redeemed the character a bit.

[@Xasew]

@@BrandonHeat243 This is one of the worst takes ever.

[@BrandonHeat243]

@@Xasew Do tell, what was your favorite part of Spikes story in later seasons? His neutered by a chip arc? The character assassinating romance arc with Buffy? His Angel ripoff arc? Face facts buddy, Spike peaked in season 2. In his season 3 cameo he was still excellent. After that it was all downhill. Well, his Angel ripoff arc was certainly much better then the Spike/Buffy arc so I guess you could say it wasn't ALL downhill from there but season 7 Spike was still far from his peak. And I say this as someone that was a complete Spike stan as kid. I was such a Spike fanboy that even got myself a totally-embarrassing-in-hindsight leather trench coat to copy his style. They did my boy dirty and anyone that thinks otherwise is, well, wrong.

[@ItsaKindOfMagic86]

I like your point. I like Spike from seasons 2 and 3 more. The spuffy shippers love his arc in later seasons, that is their bias, I have mine, I'm team Bangel lol but I do see a lot of duplicate characters in BTVS/ATS. Fred is a duplicate of Willow (girl nerd). Wesley to Giles (watcher). Spike to Angel (vampire in love with slayer). Anya to Cordelia (has no filter), and even Tara to early seasons Willow (shy and awkward). And yeah those characters do grow into their own, but they first start off as a duplicate of other characters already established @@BrandonHeat243

[@2012sonora]

Spike did get F’ed in the latter seasons of Buffy. There seems to be this thing with UF shows where the hot bad guy can’t just stay a hot bad guy. He has to start simping for the female lead. It happened in True Blood too. It’s an arc that can work but vampires are more fun when they’re evil. That being said, I think Angel Season 5 found a good balance with his character. IMO that was one of the best seasons of the Buffyverse

[@davidwatsonillustrations3445]

It was the same method with Spike from “Buffy” he was meant to last one season, became an instant fan-favourite and was used properly for the remainder of the show, Joss Whedon knows how to write great shows and keep fans happy, Joss wrote the greatest female character in TV history with Buffy, yet She-Hulk writers (an entire roomful of hardcore feminists) couldn’t write a female character between them, there is a certain irony to that

[@johnow7]

I knew they didn't know WTF they were doing with Daredevil when they had him doing the walk of shame from She Hulk's apartment. On Daredevil the guy is Catholic to the point of annoyance when it comes to his vigilantism, never slept with the show's love interest, but let me screw this woman I just met for the sake of "laughs." Really?

[@Hollyclown]

Now I’m just morbidly curious about it.

[@MrJigglebits]

One piece was only as good as it was because Eichiro Oda the creator was overseeing the production. He asked for constant reshoot and rewrites because he could not personally sign off on something he knew was trash. But he's a very busy guy and wrapping up his magnum opus he can't oversee the shows following seasons forever , unsupervised they will cowboy bebop themselves

[@matthewb2193]

In the Star Wars Expanded Universe: The Lando Calrissian Adventures had a story which featured space faring whale-like creatures that could travel through hyper-space and destroy cruiser sized ships by "shouting" at them. So, there is precedent for space whales in Star Wars.

[@BFNH459]

Good to hear ItsAGundam getting some props - his video on Asoka, especially his rant at the end, is perfect

[@HowToChangeName]

I thought hiring based on diversity over proficiency is key for great show, nobody taught me that at Disney HR

[@mindandbody9427]

6:59 That's why the need to go back to a weekly episode release model versus 8 episode series dump/binge. They're missing out on a lot of synergy within the audience who can have conversations about it, build anticipation for the next weeks episode, and as you gain momentum, everyone tunes in Wednesday night on whatever streaming panel to watch show with family, friends, etc. You need talented writers on shows that know how to hook, develop characters, elevate stakes, and leave you on a cliff hanger for the next, it seems when Hollywood adopted the binge model they decided rush jobs were better than craft. Now with soooo much content, people don't have time to binge watch they want something of quality or they'll spend their time and attention on other things....like sculpting, writing a novel, riding a bike, learning a language, going for a hike, surfing, camping, etc etc etc.

[@michaelmcfadden396]

In relation to feedback loops. Omar Little from the Wire was only meant to be in the show for a little bit too but was so popular he was in for many seasons.

[@enochroot9438]

the original Netflix Daredevil is far better than any of the Disney Marvel TV show output

[@MsYunaFires]

True Blood is another example of that fan feedback: Nelson Ellis (R.I.P) was so incredible as Lafayette that he didn't die at the end of S1 (as he did in 1st book) but stayed on thru the series. Chris Gore nails PERFECTLY what's wrong with streaming.

[@ItsaKindOfMagic86]

maybe they didnt off Lafayette in True Blood because the character had plot armor? they made him gay in the show.

[@MsYunaFires]

@@ItsaKindOfMagic86 What does his sexuality have to do with, well, anything? In case you hadn't noticed, there were plenty of other "main" queer characters that died: Russell Edgington (S5), Steve Newlin (S6), Tara Thornton (S7). Pam & Lafayette, off the top of my head, are the only ones who survived to the end. There's likely others I'm forgetting.

[@HappyDude1]

We need a comeback of the crazy 80s and 90s A lot of people are just to woke ans soft now.

[@kiunthmo]

Chris is really good. Good knowledge, very insightful

[@eddobh]

There's no future to MCU other than reboot. They killed or destroyed (or both) all the well established characters and are trying to make grandiose stories propped up by nobodies. The one good character, Spiderman, they can't rely on, as you guys mentioned.

[@bjones8470]

The panel feels incomplete without Critical Doggo. Also I really like having Chris Gore on the panel

[@themoonishollowfr]

The ending of lost is actually really good. Most people who don't like it misunderstood it. That's not saying Lost was perfect, but it was a good show and the ending was not bad like people act like.

[@Ptmkn]

Nah. Lost's ending showed Abrams had no ability to follow up on his Mystery Box method of storytelling.

[@oldelev5340]

As soon as I heard Chris insulting LOST, the gloves came off.

[@bill392]

There was a space-whale in Star Trek The Next Generation. In that episode, the baby space whale attached itself to the ship to "nurse" energy from it. In Star Trek original series episode _The Immunity Syndrome_ , there was a giant living cell that Spock almost died trying to destroy. The idea of living creatures in space is not new. Just remember, in Hollowood, there are no new ideas. Everything they do is mined from old stuff one way or the other.

[@EvilDoresh]

Giant space critters have been a Star Trek staple since the TOS days