Cultish: How To Disentangle From Fundamentalism

[@ApologiaStudios]

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[@JoshuaRando]

There is a commenter named “Blessing James” I believe it could be a scam with fake bot replies praising some trading broker with to good to be true returns. Might want to look into that account.

[@johnmaddygross2914]

I was raised in a Jehovah’s Witnesses family. I was saved about 3 years ago. My grandma is still a Jehovah’s Witness and has been for about 60 years. My mom no longer attends meetings but she still believes the same JW doctrine. And my father was reinstated like 5 or so years back. He no longer talks to me because I evangelized to him and he thinks I am an apostate. I’m am currently having conversations with my mother and am going to start having them with my grandmother. Please Pray for my efforts and their souls!

[@FormerFetus1995]

I love seeing comments like this, I was saved a little over a year ago and left the organization as a ministerial servant and former pioneer. I’ve lost all my jw “friends”, but it doesn’t compare with finding the true Christ. God bless you.

[@asmrcherisvarietyshow1878]

I’ll pray for you and I’m lighting a candle too. God bless you.

[@skalias815]

I had a Jehovah witness that approached me at work, she is really friendly and I agreed to do bible studies with her not because I want to join them but in the hopes that I can help her realize the unbiblical views they have. Do you have any advice as someone who used to be a Jehovah witness yourself?

[@johnmaddygross2914]

@@skalias815 the playlist is called JW whitnessing

[@KM-zn3lx]

There needs to be a group for former Catholics in my opinion!

[@taaron5595]

Something I feel needs to be said: there is a difference between being intentional and being legalistic. Carefully thinking through your choices (even what you wear) and determining if you are making those choices to glorify yourself or to bring glory to God, then making choices or changes so you are truly glorifying the Lord. That will look different for some people. Some women may choose to wear dresses or skirts, to be more modest than is generally seen in the culture, be less adorned by jewelry, keeping long hair, etc…to purposefully stand out in glory to the Lord from the increasingly “non-binary” culture we live in. We want to display traditional femininity on purpose to the glory of God. And I’ve seen many people look at these people who are simply being intentional about their choices in lieu of their convictions as being “fundamentalist” or “legalistic.”

[@jaquirox6579]

@T Aaron And might I ask kindly, how does a Christian today define “traditional femininity” or biblical femininity, to which is your goal here? It seems to me, based off the list of descriptors you provided, that you are envisioning a female esthetic of a particular era, which is actually of much more recent history in retrospect. Something akin to little house on the prairie, perhaps late 1800’s is your vision in the mind? And can I ask, why do you think that that particular era of clothing and hair is somehow more holy, and more God glorifying? To what scriptural basis do you have for imposing those ideals onto the body? And perhaps the question that is the most telling in your personal response, is what do you think of the Christian’s who reject your ideals on this topic, and dress in modern esthetics? Do you view them as less holy, and less God glorifying because of the esthetic of their clothing and hair? I look forward to hearing your responses friend. 🙏🏽

[@MartinJ70]

Amen 🙏

[@apples_and_orchards3205]

Exactly! And women wearing pants is actually pretty new. Personally I get so tired of seeing women in pants especially in Church. They act like it’s going to kill them to wear a dress! And long hair on women is feminine God sais our hair os our glory. It also makes us different from men. Now days to many wanna follow society. Men and women wanna dress alike women don’t care to be feminine and now they men want to be effeminate. Give me a break. And seeing Jinger flaunt herself in short shorts for the photos in her new book she’s promoting is so disheartening. And everyone cheering her on. How does she look any different from society? She no longer her stand out as a follow of Christ but as a follower of the world. How is wearing shorts modest? It’s not! Especially when they are that short

[@jaquirox6579]

@@apples_and_orchards3205 ok boomer 😂

[@rlolo777]

Once you impose your intentional choices, or standards, on others and say it's biblical, that's when you enter the territory of legalism. It is not a legalism of salvation, as in Acts 15, it is a legalism in practice. It is adding extra boundaries or rules to the Bible which aren't there. This is putting your people back in bondage. Peter said, "Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" Acts 15:10. Standards don't change lives. Standards don't save. They don't save from the penalty of sin, nor do they save from the power of sin. They don't sanctify us, and Jesus said, "By this shall all men know that ye are My disciples: if ye have love one for another." (John 13:35) -He didn't say if your standards are acultural enough. Fundamentalist legalists want you to fit their mold regardless of what the Bible says. They add extra parameters you must put in your life because the Holy Spirit isn't good enough. They preach the sufficiency of the Holy Spirit, but in reality, they don't believe it because they don't live it. They remove Him from their ministry by doing His job for Him. There is no room in the lives of their congregations for the Holy Spirit. They don't let Him do the convicting. They try to do that for Him and get frustrated when people don't conform.

[@mutantchiki3988]

Another Pentecostal Holiness raised girl here! Legalism is a huge problem in our churches, although they're all very independent and it varies by church. Natalie's been seriously attacked by our group and she keeps speaking truth. You go, girl :) I have been dropping a lot of the "standards" for a few years now, and I wore pants in public for the first time at the gym this morning. It was a very weird experience, and I had guilt about it even though I've known for awhile there is nothing wrong with it. I felt it was more modest than what I had been wearing to the gym, although I'm sure a lot of my church peeps would say I should just not go to the gym!

[@rlolo777]

That's what is called false gulit. Many people struggle with it when they've been raised to believe something is wrong that actually isn't.

[@broz1488]

Reading your comment, I find myself asking why women who are not athletes would be going to a gym? The gym originally was started I believe in ancient Sparta, as a way to toughen up soldiers for combat and train atheletes for arena sports. Most gym equipment today is still focussed on building muscle on the male physic and not focused on building feminine curves. Obviously women playing traditional men sports, such as boxing, rowing, football, wrestling, etc. would benefit from building muscles used in such sports, just as men do by attending the gym to build such muscles for their sport. But regular non athelitic women with no reason to build muscle in strange places, attend gym for what reason? Weight loss? Health? No, walking would be more beneficial for that than gym. I wonder why you are not attending a women's only gym, that would be more geared to catering towards women's needs. Is it because the main attraction for your desire to attend gym in skimpy body hugging clothing is the men? And thus the real guilt you feel isn't because you are not wearing a skirt, but because you are not wearing a skirt in front of men and body hugging gym pants instead. I'm certain that you would not have felt such guilt in a women's only gym to wear body hugging gym pants.

[@mutantchiki3988]

@Brother Oz who said I was wearing body hugging pants? I wear loose joggers lol go off though 😊

[@KM-zn3lx]

​​@@broz1488where would there be women only gyms in this day and age?! You're just silly.

[@broz1488]

@@KM-zn3lx most civilized cities have them.

[@1momofmen48]

Omy goodness, as someone who has been damned to hell for years, this is a breath of fresh air. I walked away fro church, which is not the same as walking from God.

[@BrickbyBrick4U]

Ditto. You said it. Been there too.

[@NikkiSchumacherOfficial]

Don’t give up the gathering as some have been in the habit of doing. Hebrews 10:25 I definitely don’t think you walked away from God or are unsaved. I’m so sorry you had legalists damning you to hell. You do need to keep trying to find a good church for your own good.

[@michellecheriekjv4115]

​@@NikkiSchumacherOfficial Amen 🔥 God called us out, not to be a lone sheep, but to be part of the flock. Those legalist churches are more rare. There are many great loving, supportive churches out there. Ones who are not devoid of the Holy Spirit. Keep trying until you find a church home.

[@daykasays2922]

Some of us need time to heal before we jump back into another church. Don't let religion get in the way of your relationship with God.

[@ROLLTHEMBONES]

What you are saying is in opposition to scripture, you MUST be connected to a local body of believers.

[@JesusistheonetrueGod]

I cannot find a church community in my area. Sometimes I feel alone, but then I remember that God is with us, even to the end of the age.

[@ashleyfranklin4080]

I haven’t found a church home since before the pandemic you are not alone!

[@gospelcawfeethoughts9925]

What state do you live in?

[@JesusistheonetrueGod]

@@gospelcawfeethoughts9925 Maryland

[@bjellier]

Having grown up in a super strict Dutch Reformed church, I can relate to so much of what these 2 ladies are sharing. It was my interest in apologetics that finally got me out and into a good bible believing Baptist church.

[@bornbranded29]

These guys are Reformed so they will not acknowledge your complaints.

[@bjellier]

@@bornbranded29 I'm still reformed, it's the branch of Dutch reformed that was hyper calvinist that grew up in that was the issue.

[@bjellier]

@@bornbranded29 I now go to a church very similar to Apologia

[@truthisbeautiful7492]

Apologetics and studying history helped destroy and bury Roman Catholicism that I grew up with - but even then it was the Word of God.

[@nathanoosterhuis6232]

​@@bjellier goed om te horen. Ik heb nog geen kerk gevonden. Meeste kerken hier zijn (super) charismatisch of katholiek.

[@audreyanderson9745]

I am SO excited y'all are tackling this topic!!!

[@OpheliaPumpernickel]

I have been decived in church for years and sadly raised my child with false believes so she turned away from Christ and made up her own pagan mish mash religion. She is 24 now and I don't know how to reach her. She is deeply hurt and has experienced massive abuse in and outside church. If somebody has it on his/ her heart, please pray for her. Thank you and God bless you! (She just agreed to watching the video! 😃)

[@truthisbeautiful7492]

I pray for her. I hope she will read Romans and understand imputed righteousness. On KZbin, the defense of the Augsburg Confession on justification, there is a defense of it. William Perkins has a sermon on Christ crucified that is good too.

[@OpheliaPumpernickel]

@@truthisbeautiful7492 Thank you very much and God bless you!

[@SuperExodus13]

This might be something you've thought of, but in my personal experience, the best thing to start would be to admit to your daughter that you were wrong (be specific), and ask for forgiveness. Then continue your diligent prayers. I will also.

[@OpheliaPumpernickel]

@@SuperExodus13 I did and we had some good conversations. She even forgave me, which is a great blessing. I thank you for yor prayers! God bless you! 🙏

[@SuperExodus13]

@OpheliaPumpernickel God bless you sister.

[@finray2]

I believe this is one of the most important groups to reach. I grew up in a fundamentalist church that held tightly to their man-made rules to feel like they were obtaining holiness. I see so many posts and articles and videos and podcasts from people who are deconstructing and leaving Christianity. I ask in these forums what their background is and so many times it's fundamentalist Christianity. I like the introduction of the terminology detangling to give those who are struggling and considering deconstructing another framework to work through their doubts.

[@starlingswallow]

Keep praying ❤

[@truthisbeautiful7492]

I noticed that years ago too, with lots of date setters and ex Armstrongites as well.

[@benforgrave1989]

CULTISH is a life giving ministry

[@chingersgolucky7512]

After almost 2 decades in a group very similar to what Natalie and Jennifer was involved with, God brought me out of that lunacy. My grandfather spent half his life preaching the garbage in that movement. A few years before he died I asked him if he cold tell me the Gospel. He held up his Bible and said this is it. I said no, it's in there, but that isn't it. After years of trying to keep my salvation, only to realize that I am failing greatly, the question that I asked myself is would Jesus lie? He said to believe in Him, so I did that. It was truly life changing. It wasn't about what I could do, but what He had already done.

[@jaquirox6579]

♥️♥️♥️

[@MartinJ70]

“What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” ‭‭James‬ ‭2‬:‭14‬-‭17‬ ‭

[@chingersgolucky7512]

@@MartinJ70 keep depending on your dirty rags.

[@esmeraldamoreiragallardo]

​@@chingersgolucky7512 Lol ,triggered much? Hyper grace=liberalism=not taking personal responsibility. Both (hyper grace and liberal "christians") want to life in sin and think they are still going to heaven. Yeah... keep dreaming.

[@MartinJ70]

@@chingersgolucky7512 if you think you can call your self a Christian without living a Christ like life then good luck. All love brother. God bless.

[@js5860]

Fundamentalism , originally named, in the 1920-30’s was vastly different from todays term . It’s unfortunate that things changed from the true fundamentals of the faith to what it has been know as the last 20 yrs…legalism, and strict rules…. Thankful for people to truly understand the Bible and Christ, there is freedom in Christ alone.

[@ronnieblanchet4072]

What a blessing! Godspeed y’all! So grateful to God for this work. God bless y’all! Soli Deo Gloria -Ronnie

[@aaronblack7504]

I appreciate these two women sharing their experiences in those hypocritical settings. As a 23yr old man I’ve grown up in Bible Believing, Independent, Fundamental Baptist churches all my life. And while I believe the majority of the teachings are Biblical, there is certainly a good deal of hypocrisy when it comes to standards and what not. Being born again at the age of 6 God revealed Himself to me early, through the Holy Ghost (not by man’s persuasion). Until I hit my rebellious years, life was great, but at 15-16 I started to see the hypocrisy. That was all I could focus on, then in my rebellion I became one. Acting like a “Christian”, but listening to 50s and 80s music on my own. Constantly fighting with my parents and things, but once I stopped fighting the Lord and everything around me, I realized it had to be personal. I had to search these beliefs we held for myself, so that I could know if it were true or not. After searching a lot, I found indeed that the KJV is the truly inspired word of God, and the other translations after it actually exclude important things. What I see, and Natalie mentioned several times, a lack of studying God’s word. Preachers preach from it, and there are teachers, but many of it revolves around the same issues. There’s not much talk of why we’re to dress modestly, why we’re not to drink, and have sex outside of marriage. It’s mentioned a great deal, but never expounded upon. If young people knew the why, the body of Christ would be in much better shape. I do see a great deal of young people stepping away from these cults and what not, but many times they step a bit too far into that “freedom”. They become a little bit too close to the world, and that is not good. I do believe men and women should dress modestly, but the younger need not just to be made to do it simply because they were told to by some guy, it needs to be shown from God’s word. Many that come out of these cults think it’s ok to drink, just not to get drunk. That’s completely against scripture, but if the distinction is not taught, how are they to know?? Cult and culture go hand in hand, with so many different cultures it becomes overwhelmingly difficult to distinguish between what is true and what is false. Without the Holy Ghost inside of individuals it is apparent they turn to culture, making up rules they deem best, interpreting the Bible in each his own way. Then there are those who hold the truth in unrighteousness, as Romans 1:18 tells us, beating people with the truth. The free gift of the word of God can’t be forced upon any man, it can only be received willingly. I appreciate this discussion, and I hope and pray there’s true Berean change happening. Study the word, rightly dividing of course. 2 Timothy 2:15

[@ryanjamietaylor1134]

Where does it say drinking in moderation is a sin? Also, the KJV only.. also doesn't IFB think drums are demonic. those hard lines are not biblical. That's where cult-like behavior comes. Scripture above opinions.

[@rlolo777]

Yeah, apparently God continues to inspire, even well into the 1600s. 🤦🏻‍♀️ It is a translation of the inspired Word, not inspired itself. There is no biblical basis for this. You have not read the translators note to the reader in the KJV have you? The KJV translators themselves were not KJV only and in fact they said this is the best we can do with the manuscripts that we have, and if older mainscripts are found then a redo is necessary. Older manuscripts WERE found. Literal, accurate translations WERE made. You are missing out tremendously and your hermeneutics are skewed because you do not accept these translations.

[@broz1488]

@@rlolo777 what you have not been told, is that the older manuscript called codex sinaiticus found in the 1850's, unfortunately used for most modern translations on grounds of it's age, only existed as a discarded heretical bible that was never used by the monastery, thus preserving it's age and condition from lack of use and not out of any sort of reverence. It was an ancient discarded anti trinitarian codex back then, and still is today, just as are all translations that use it. It is well documented that in the 4th century, the anti trinitarian sects removed any mention of the Trinity from the Bible, such as 1John 5:7-8. Just as this codex sinaiticus does, as do it's modern translations. All the other codex's, making up textus receptus, do not remove 1John 5:7-8, just as no Bible translation in any language does, prior to finding the codex sinaiticus. I'm going to assume based on your surname, that you have a knowledge of Spanish and Portuguese, and can probably read sufficient French and German to see for yourself, that all the old translations in these languages done prior to 1860, even 1960 for most, did not remove 1John 5:7-8. As well as the other verses removed in any modern codex sinaiticus translation. Stop believing the lies of the codex sinaiticus supporters and do your own research. Ask yourself why, if the codex sinaiticus translation is so superior, why no one in the past used it? If you say it's because it was only found in 1854, then ask yourself what the 5000 odd ancient Greek manuscripts that we have found say? Let me help you with that, they are the textus receptus, and they include 1John 5:7-8.

[@shay-car]

I loved the Cultish episode on the UPCI a few years ago, so it was awesome to see these 2 ladies again!

[@graysonbr]

Appreciated the balance, there have been a lot of podcasts against wokism. We definitely some need podcasts confronting rigid fear-based fundamentalism.

[@MadlyinLovewithJesus-1953]

I used to have a housemate that was brought up in a large family and whose father was a very dedicated Pentecostal preacher. She was not allowed to wear pants, ever. As a teen she rebeled by wearing a skirt or dress when she left for school in the mornings and then stopping at a place she could change before arriving at school -- and same thing on the way home every day. She told me that one day she was driving home and got in an accident, and all she could think about was how she still needed to get her skirt back on before her father would find out. When I knew her, she was in her sixties and she ONLY wore pants except for one time with a new love interest who hinted he would like to see her in a dress and she wore one. Once. Then back to the pants. Which is fine, but it was like it was a traumatic thing for her (oh, and she kept her hair VERY short.)

[@Maximus_W]

I’m ready for the IFB episode!

[@rlolo777]

😂😂😂😂 definitely

[@robmullin1128]

I grew up in the Holiness movement (Pilgrim Holiness). I experienced nothing but true Christian love.

[@Leahmay1]

I grew up IFB. I had a youth pastor tear up the NIV Bible and threw it across the room. He was so angered by any other translation other then KJV. I knew that I never wanted to raise my future kids around that teaching.

[@yeshuaislord3058]

what's crazy is the KJV has translation errors itself. if they want the original text they need to learn Hebrew Aramaic and Greek but the ESV and NASB are the best English translation as far as accuracy goes in my opinion. i love the Kjv. but i do not think it is the best at all.I've seen a lot of fundamentalist who claim other translations are in error but they won't hear the actual proof regarding translations and manuscripts.

[@broz1488]

@@yeshuaislord3058 it's not about translation errors, it's about heresy. Bibles for example without 1John 5:7-8 are anti trinitarian translations. Many of the new translations are done following political agendas such as gender neutrality, downplay of hell, and other trends geared to misrepresent the Word of God to please the sensitivities of a modern fallen world. The KJV translation done prior to our modern era, is free from these modern manipulations to change or alter the Bible, which began from about 1850 onwards. Those who pay for the Bible translation, get to decide how the translation is done. Never assume that their goal is not malicious.

[@finray2]

​@@broz1488 The King James version was once contemporary in its day and could have been impacted by their modern ideologies of that day.

[@finray2]

​@@broz1488 it is completely unwise and illogical to think that no other translation beyond the KJV could have been translated with due diligence to the original languages.

[@broz1488]

@@finray2 any translation done from the textus receptus will be on a par with the KJV, possibly even better than the KJV. The problem is that modern translations are using minority texts and not using the majority texts represent by textus receptus. The fact that they are using the minority texts, the ones discarded because of errors or missing verses, should be a red flag to any Christian. I always turn to 1John 5:7-8 to see if a Bible translation has used textus receptus or not for their translation. And if those verses are missing or abbreviated, I can guarantee you that there are another 60 - 100 verses left out or altered as well. Basically I'm not a KJV only contender, I am a textus receptus only contender, and currently the number of textus receptus English Bible translations are few and far between. I guess the children of darkness who are financing modern English translations, get to decide what is translated and how it's translated. Doesn't mean I have to accept it or agree with it. Which I don't if they haven't used textus receptus.

[@ltilley7343]

Regarding clothing; over the last year I started wearing long skirts by choice and it's actually been very freeing. Nothing wrong with dressing modestly.

[@r.a.panimefan2109]

Lol actually read the verses for modesty. You r going to see that it actually has to do with austerity and vanity It says to dress modesty with proprietary not with gold or jewelry Or braided hair. Modesty has zilch to do with sexual In fact look up the greek of lust. And cross reference with the tenth command and romans 7.7 kjv. Think God made us naked. Do unsee anywhere it of itself is called a sin. A man wearing a loin cloth in a jungle is more modest than a dully clothed victorian woman. In the 1850s. And that's not my definition it's the bibles 😅 Seriously The anti sexual anti desire stuff is the spirit of gnosticsm witch john warned about in his letters

[@Xaforn]

The first time I cut my hair, I gave myself an undercut the rest of my long would cover it and although I’d been questioning standards for years, doing my research like crazy to where I could explain all my thoughts, that real trauma had me pause and wait for a moment after I cut. As if I was waiting for the house to collapse or lightning to strike, and when it didn’t I truly felt that burden leave, I felt empowered. And honestly I’d been tempted so many times over my life to just leave Christianity altogether; the abusive narcissistic man I didn’t want to marry (but I felt I had no choice due to religious upbringing and my disability) he abandoned my child and I (of course I was blamed), I hadn’t been healed despite “UPCI prophets” telling me I had been or would be etc, but God kept me with the little things. The small prayers of I need to find this, let me know so and so is ok, prayers for someone else’s healing, comfort and relearning trust with a good Christian man etc, God never fails.

[@highcountryprecision4639]

My wife has come out of the Gothard cult and after many years it's still lingers, we really like the "detangling' term as it really does a better job than using deconstruct. The problem we see is how many of especially the men who were in that cult, instead of detangling just make a lateral move to Reformed cults, they seems to enhance the cultish ideology since it's under a more palatable cult leader. We watch some of the Reformed leaders and my wife feels like she back at the Gothard training centers, in our church we have many people coming out of reformed or very legalistic baptist churches, the abuse and trauma is identical to those coming out of Gothardism!!!

[@acky6174]

Sounds like Jinger Duggar… she thinks she’s seen the light from Gothard but in every interview I’ve seen her in about her book she makes several plugs for being Reformed.

[@highcountryprecision4639]

@@acky6174 It's a hard thing to come out of the "christian" cults without letting yourself swing hard the opposite direction unless someone is walking along side you. These cults make it harder than most to leave IMO because it's in the name of Jesus, we share songs, the Bible, church language and most aspects of the faith but it's the Spirit that is different. I watch many of the newer Reformed Covenant churches basically walking lock step right in Gothards foot steps or even taking it farther, Satan has played this same game for a long time for a reason!!

[@rlolo777]

​@@thebanneredmare9190 there is a video on KZbin called "why I think Calvinism is unbiblical" - watch it before you accept reformed theology. Find yourself a good Bible church. I think you'll be good.

[@onewaytruth435]

Currently in a legalistic church.. very fear based for sure. I’m lost. Church and friends are all I know from there. Curious what advice I can get, what helped y’all to get through that point in life.

[@randallwilliams5557]

Fundamentalism and legalism is not the same.

[@intothekey]

They often overlap.

[@omnitone]

can you prove that they are not the same? i don't argue that they are, but a statement without backing and basis is void. if fundamentalism (the same fundamentalism that ruined the reputation of Christianity in america) was completely disconnected from legalism, that would be pretty big.

[@intothekey]

@@omnitone I don't feel like arguing one way or the other but yeah a lot of the fundimentalist churches were the really odd folk who didn't line up with the Calvinist or the Armenians.

[@omnitone]

@@intothekey i was responding to randall williams but ok.

[@intothekey]

@@omnitone I know I just have a lot of opinions and enjoy sharing them with internet strangers who watch the same stuff I do

[@BrandilineMelt]

I homeschool my kids and I agree teaching your kids Critical thinking and how study the word and come to their own conclusions is essential! When I read the Bible with my kids over the years I've been careful not to over interpret the scriptures or spoon speed my beliefs into them. They need to learn how to study the word and make their beliefs their own. As they got older they read books in apologetics. As a result they love the Bible and they have come to me telling me how things they've heard taught didn't necessarily line up with the word of God. Yes seriously they have come home from church and researched things they hear taught. I love it. And I love the Biblical discussions they bring up to me. We left the Holiness movement 8 years ago. I'm so thankful my family has freedom in their faith now.

[@evan7391]

God bless you for that! I wasn't Christian until recently, due to being irritated by religion. I found Christ by studying ancient philosophy and apologetics. I think teaching these things is essential, not just for Christianity, but for critical thinking in general.

[@jennylynn8314]

I'm just in shock. I was in a Christian school until 7th grade where I begged my parents to transfer somewhere else. I was miserable. I thought this school was just super strict. I wasn't aware it was cultish. They absolutely followed Bill's teachings. No pants, no makeup or jewelry. Black and white Christianity. This played SO much into messing me up mentally and emotionally through my life. Wow..... just so much answered here for me.

[@romandaigle455]

I will always be a fundamentalist. I’m not afraid, I just obey God and follow the Bible.

[@Mediterraneangun]

Legalism is death .

[@Mr.Lateralus]

YES!! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

[@intothekey]

Yes it's good to be a fundamentalist, however it's bad to rip the Bible out of context which many self proclaimed fundamentals do. This is why I'm reformed, it's a long tradition that takes the Bible literally.

[@chingersgolucky7512]

If you are trusting in your works, behavior, outward appearance, and your own goodness to save you, then you are going to hear "depart from Me, I never knew you" at judgement day. Legalism is death and your righteousness is just a dirty feminine hygiene product. The movement these women were involve with are a cancer.

[@Mr.Lateralus]

@@intothekey Amen.

[@AlexJohnson7789]

Ok, so I'm confused, the Google definition of fundamentalism doesn't actually sound like a bad thing. Perhaps I'm just ignorant, but isn't believing in the fundamentals of scripture a good thing. I attend an independent fundamental Baptist church, and they hold to 7 fundamentals of the faith; saved by grace through faith in Christ, believers baptism, inerrancy of scripture, ect. Is there a difference between believing in basic fundamentals of the christian faith, and being a fundamentalist?

[@taaron5595]

No, people just like to lump all fundamentalist Christians into one category and call them legalists. Fundamentalism, that is, holding to the fundamentals of the faith, is actually true Christianity. A fundamental Christian church can legalistic, but not necessarily. Problem is that in our culture, adhering to the fundamentals of the faith is seen as legalism, including believing in sola Scriptura. 60% of youth pastors in America according to a recent study, do not believe Sola Scriptura and many “Christians” today think that if you believe the Bible is the only way God speaks to us, that His word is inerrant and objectively true, they see that as legalism. So, defining terms and using them correctly is important. Fundamentalism does not automatically equal legalism.

[@BillyTeaStoop]

It's a muddy term. In this context it doesn't mean follow the fundamentals of Christianity. In the type of church these ladies describe, the church tries to guide every aspect of your life rather than only focusing on saving souls and allowing the Holy Spirit to guide you in all other matters. There's nothing "fundamental" about it.

[@finray2]

I prefer to stay away from the word fundamental and use the term biblical when describing a true theological understanding of the gospel.

[@finray2]

The word fundamentals is different from fundamentalist. If you say we believe in these fundamental truths has a completely different meaning to me than someone who says I'm a fundamentalist.

[@rlolo777]

​@@finray2 A fundamentalist is someone who believes in the fundamentals of the faith. It's that simple. In modernity, they are trying to take the word fundamental as a negative. This video is named fundamental, I think, to draw watchers. The real word they should have used was hyperfundamentalism.

[@NikkiSchumacherOfficial]

Gosh they just kicked her to the curb. So sad. I praise God that she stayed true to God even though she lost all her friends.

[@waynemershon4622]

The problem is that so often those that criticize an emphasis on moral purity and virtuous living while celebrating their "liberation from legalism" end up embracing immoral practices such as alcohol consumption, immodest dress, etc. therefore negating any validity to their christian testimony. Translation: Legalism is sinful. Requiring a holy, consecrated life is not legalism. Drinking, drug use, immodest dress, etc is not freedom in Christ nor legitimate expressions of christian liberty. If your faith doesn't clean up your life, it's not worth respecting.

[@gillespaling7039]

Define legalism and give me an object test for its presence

[@robstrck8]

My mother-in-law belonged to a church like that and still holds to a lot of it. No pants, no make-up, no jewelry (she even sold her wedding ring). She is kind and devoted to her family and community but she lacks joy.

[@robstrck8]

Oh, and the speaking in tongues

[@taaron5595]

@d.4513😂

[@potluck712]

The fact hair standards have been placed that high shows that they are in the same sin as someone who is cosmetically obsessed with and idolizing their hair. What happens if you get in a car wreck and your hair catches on fire? What if you get cancer and it falls out? What if you suddenly get alopecia? What will they say then?!

[@n88986]

This is an important topic. Thank you!

[@finnish1954]

This from similar experience: Legalists can be some of the most evil, unloving, uncaring, un-Christlike people.

[@NikkiSchumacherOfficial]

Honestly I felt a lot of this stuff in my decade in Amway. I keep thinking that every time I watch any video about almost any cult.

[@rlolo777]

MLM's can become cultish. Loyalty to the brand becomes more important than loyalty to yourself. For example, if something is too expensive to buy, you should remain loyal to yourself and not buy it, but the brands push buying from THEM. The key to not falling into the trap is (1) to be tied with an organization that leaves you alone. I don't mean the company, I mean the marketing organization- like, who your upline is connected with. And (2) to understand for yourself that it is just a brand and it is a for profit company and they have no loyalty to you. They just want your money. So if there's another brand that offers you a better product there's nothing wrong with buying that product. I have to deal with this a lot with the young living people. There are cheaper and better oils out there but they refuse to buy them because their brand only is the best brand. Supposedly. So they are taught.

[@samanthakwait8782]

It’s interesting. I don’t know much about the different sects of Christianity. I grew up Pentecostal. There are definitely things I was taught that I don’t find biblical but I never considered my experience legalistic. I’m still Pentecostal as an adult and we are much less “legalistic” than what I grew up with. It’s so crazy how different the body of Christ is, even people within the same sect. Not sure if that’s good or bad.

[@Xaforn]

I think the bad aspect is if you say things first no one will believe you, they’ll automatically say you’re making it up, rebellious, trying to cause trouble or flat out just won’t be able to comprehend it which can be just as bad because they won’t help and can’t help you.

[@Heaveniswaitingforyou]

Born and raised up in the super secretive sect called the Two by Twos to outsiders but inside they call themselves as “The Truth” or “The Way”. Prided in saying they are non denominational. All the same superstition and legalistic women’s dress. Hyper fundamental. Didn’t know that Jesus is God The Son. Thought I was going to hell for anything out of line. Very very stressful living. Workers were our spiritual leaders that would go out as homeless preachers and stay in homes of people within the cult. Lots of sexual abuse goes on and it’s really coming out only now after many many years of secrets. It’s crazy having come out of it and I still feel weird saying I was a victim of cult abuse but truly that’s what a victim feels.. you downplay the whole thing! So glad to know there’s other people that understand. I felt so alone when I first left back in 2020. I have a video testimony called “Vanessa’s Testimony Out Of Spiritual Bondage” God Bless 🙏🕊️❤️

[@DW-yq4zn]

Hope you invite Spencer Smith to Call to Freedom. He has some good views, but definitely falls into legalism. He lives in KY.

[@ryanjamietaylor1134]

Agrees. He seems to put his opinions above scripture

[@livefromtexas9371]

Resting in God loves has been difficult for me. Coming from a legalistic background I would hear “God loves you” and then hear if I wore blush on my cheeks ( or pants, jewelry , or whatever) I didn’t love God and was rebellious and going to hell. It was hard for me to reconcile those two.

[@davidbrock4104]

Raised UPC. I can relate to much of what was said. The ladies get the short end of the stick in regards to dress standards, etc.

[@PurpleGold.]

Cutting someone off and ghosting them with the text message “I love you” is just cruel.

[@randallwilliams5557]

What is wrong with fundamentalism? I guess it really depends on the definition.

[@rlolo777]

Nothing

[@scotthix2926]

Did not fall into fundamentalism but did fall into a work mentality. Highly recommend the book "The Rest of the Gospel" - David Gregory. Rest is a double meaning word of rest meaning peace and the 2nd half of the gospel.

[@Adam_A_Christian]

I'm not a Calvinist or professing Baptist or anything, but... the "fundamentals of the faith"? That's what fundamentalism actually means... is that really something we need or should even want to ever 'disentangle' from? I think we should be careful about such language as terms like 'entangled' as far as I understand it, are only used in scripture as specifically related to the plans, plots, and snares, etc., of the evil one. Food for thought. Good bless you.

[@doctorflush878]

What is the link to podcast or book there talk about

[@BillyTeaStoop]

Very familiar with all of this too. It can put a real strain on your faith once you come out of it after decades and realize how unBiblical and manipulative it all was. I can't count how many youth services and revivals I attended where the preacher's main goal was instilling fear.

[@jennylynn8314]

Absolutely. This eventually kept me pretty far from God and church and Christians most of my life, going to a Christian school, based on these principles.

[@KM-zn3lx]

I have a Friend in a Baptist church who I believe is legalistic. She's kjv only, church attendance on Wednesday and twice on sundays. She says osas but christians don't drink and she's convicted personally against tv for entertainment. She considers my New Kj version bible an abomination and she doesn't question her pastor! But not Pentacostal. Also I thought oneism Pentacostals don't believe in the trinity?!

[@jrmas]

Former UPS here. Even though it has been more than a decade since my family left, the emotions are still messed up.

[@Xaforn]

Yes people don’t realize how much they were traumatized, they don’t even know what spiritual abuse is. I didn’t and I grew up UPCI, I had done a lot of research but never knew what that was until I was trying to heal from my abusive marriage and so many familiar terms kept popping up .

[@EmilyDuncan-to1hn]

Wow! Jesus help us. This helped me so much.

[@alanmatthews9260]

Do these other guests have a KZbin channel?

[@amateurfaithnight1959]

Yes! Natalie has Berean Holiness and Jennifer has Amateur Faith Night

[@triumphantsoul9075]

I thought a fundamentalist church was a church that believed every word of the Bible is true.

[@finray2]

No a fundamentalist church is one that adds man's rules to the gospel.

[@finray2]

I grew up fundamentalist and always thought that was a good thing. I now know what is important is the true gospel. I want to be in a biblical church and not a fundamentalist church.

[@triumphantsoul9075]

so, a church that believes every word of the Bible is true would be better described as a Bible-believing church.

[@rlolo777]

​@@finray2 no, that was just your church. There are plenty of fundamentalists that are not legalistic. In your experience they were one and the same, but they aren't. If legalism was woven into your church's doctrine, that doesn't mean that's how fundamentalism is defined.

[@rlolo777]

Yes, you are correct. This is the true definition of fundamentalism. But many fundamentalist churches DO add things to their dogma, twisting Scripture because they've been indoctrinated a certain way. But this is not all fundamentalists. Fundamentalism is good, not bad. I think the channel used this term as clickbait instead of using the term hyperfundamentalism or extreme fundamentalism- which is literally a hybrid of legalism and fundamentalism- which isn't real fundamentalism at all. It's just a cult, no different from Mormonism, JW, or the Pharisees.

[@debunkingthefundamentalist]

My experience was dating one. And it was either get indoctrinated or walk away. I dated a fundamentalist. Decades later I put the experience in one of my own vids. But in a nutshell this was how it went. I was an agnostic/unspecified theist as I am today. Probably closer to a Jew than anything else. The family was friendly to me only until they realized I wasn't going to convert--which they attempted to intrude on the second they met me. They told the daughter how I "had to get to church etc." And I knew more about the bible than all of them put together. Her family and friends eventually got her to break it off. It was like trying to push against a tidal wave. But the real eye opener was the hypocrisy. The father had another illegitimate daughter from an affair, the sister was a stripper and their pastor hanged himself after he got caught sleeping with a fifteen year old. But the guy who considered marriage to the daughter was a red flag because he dared question a book he knew from cover to cover which they had never even read. Saying I have a problem with fundamentalists? That is an understatement. They are a cult, pure and simple. Cheers, DCF

[@andrewtaylor1737]

I do like this idea of women wearing dresses only. Tell me about this place.

[@potter8488]

I know right! When did modesty become a enemy?

[@ritastevenson5639]

As an EX-JW (out for 2. 5 yrs after being in for over 30), I can see so many similarities. Thank you both for your testimonies!

[@barbdaly8172]

We have two daughters that are involved in the Bethel teachings, and they go to a church in Colorado and they have cut ties with all of us. We had a children always still have a children but they don’t acknowledge just don’t acknowledge their siblings. It’s heartbreaking because it’s a false doctrine.

[@ricksonora6656]

Cutting ties is cultish behavior. I’m so sorry. A friend’s youngest son got sucked into a cult in Sacramento. My friend just died, and his son didn’t even call his mom or acknowledge his father’s passing. Leaders of such cults are worthy of biblical sanctions.

[@ricksonora6656]

@@thebanneredmare9190 Have they taken over the school boards? Which is worse, Bethelites running the government and schools, or woke neo-Marxists?

[@real.revJosva]

Isn't fundamental Christianity just following what the Bible teaches?

[@DaveCutzHair]

No that’s Orthodox Christianity.

[@victoriawhite4325]

In theory, possibly, in reality, it's about following the standards and doctrine of your church, NOT God.

[@aaronknight4800]

​@@victoriawhite4325 yeah. Still far too many interpretations. Too many denominations.

[@Dewfasa]

More specifically the pastor/elders wrong emphasis in the teachings and interpretations of scripture.

[@DaveCutzHair]

@@aaronknight4800 so read the Bible yourself and get your own interpretation.

[@joshuawoodin]

Oh, I c now.. sry I dnt listen long enough, pls excuse my impatience. Something that stuck out was to think biblically for urself, to help renew ur mind especially from cult based groups.. I originally heard that similar to ( mike winger) says to think biblically about everything.. good stuff guys !

[@andrewbrowne5557]

Remember back when words meant what they sounded like they meant? You may not believe this, but there was a time when ‘Fundamental’ wasn’t a disparaging term…when it merely meant ‘foundational’, I.e. triune nature of God, virgin birth of Jesus, authority of scripture, salvation through faith alone, etc…nowadays ‘fundamentalist’ means legalistic…sad

[@ricksonora6656]

The way theses guys (ab-)use it, yes. The world uses it to mean just about anyone who lives consistent with religious beliefs. Being lumped in with jihadists ain’t fun.

[@tg2535]

The Orthodox Church is the church that can trace its roots back to Jesus Christ and his Holy Apostles. I am a convert to this church. This church can give a person everything it needs to follow The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit in a very healthy way. The teachings of the saints and early Church Fathers are beautiful.☦️🇨🇦🙏✌️

[@finray2]

Be careful with churches who say they can trace their roots back to the first church. Even if that were true it does not mean they're not apostate. They could have lost their way somewhere down the path.

[@ricksonora6656]

Orthodox Church is refuted in Romans and Galatians.

[@NathanBerryNC]

I think that you should clearly define Holiness and Pentecostal in these conversations. I'm a member of the IPHC, which is definitely not what y'all are describing.

[@TheMollyPitchers]

Called to be single...(Wanted a family. GOD said His grace is sufficient. Retrospectively, at 60, through it all, GOD'S grace IS sufficient) taught in an ACE school for 15+ years. In encounters with corporate staff I was frequently treated like a leper. There's been a lot of night seasons. I can't, however ignore the opportunity to serve Jesus, that my singleness has a given me that I wouldn't have had if I'd been married, with a family to raise. Christians are often first to judge, last to understand or forgive, and first to open fire on their own.

[@rlolo777]

Will there be a Freedom conference in Houston area?

[@gwengwen4535]

Oh man… this is a really long one but I might just jump in and try to watch it. I grew up in a Hyles Anderson affiliate church so this topic is very close to my heart- my church drove many people away from Christ because they kept putting such chains on people chains that even they, themselves were not able to endure. If the body of Christ would simply love God with all of their heart mind and soul and their neighbor as themselves and let the Holy Spirit lead them in all things, none of this ridiculousness would even be happening😰

[@rlolo777]

We just left a church who got a new pastor.... from Indiana.... with STRONG Hyles Anderson tendencies. I am so saddened to see many IFB churches become a cult instead being just a normal IFB. The new pastor brought his cultish views to our church and instead of getting into an arguing match, we left. Have to go to a Bible church around here to escape eisegesis.

[@rlolo777]

I always say it brings such dishonor to God when Christians argue over petty things such as KJV only ism and women in pants. I think God views these things as petty and is shaking His head at us like this 🙄🤦🏻‍♀️

[@gwengwen4535]

@@rlolo777 Amen, good to hear you had the Holy Spirit discernment to leave that fellowship. It’s wild that most people don’t see it😰😞

[@pamphilus3652]

As per your video description do you believe that fundamentalist churches are not real churches?

[@ThatOne77]

Fundamentalism refers to adherence to the fundamentals of the Christian faith, found in the Bible.

[@finray2]

It can have that meaning but it has changed mainly due to the the influx of more legalistic, Pentecostal, holiness, charismatic/name it claim it ideologies.

[@finray2]

I prefer to just be simple in the way I describe churches and theology and just say it's biblical or non-biblical. Or say they are teaching a false gospel.

[@ThatOne77]

@@finray2 Define legalism.

[@ThatOne77]

@@finray2 So you're saying not all fundamentalism is bad....just depends on the fundamentalist.

[@finray2]

@@ThatOne77 no I'm saying the word means different things to different people and what is important is what they are holding to as a fundamental.

[@Benita399]

I grew up in the UPC and she’s absolutely right, and anyone saying that she’s lying. You know you’re being totally disingenuous.

[@carlin3152]

The experiences these ladies shared really remind me of my background in a nameless house sect mostly known by outsiders as "two-by-twos". They think they are the only real Christians, they are very legalistic and focused on outward appearances. Any outward "sin" like women wearing pants, makeup or jewelery, or being divorced and re-married, or asking questions about the cover-up of the origins of the sect or its founders will carry severe consequences like shunning, being disallowed to participate or even being excommunicated; but sins that can be concealed like child abuse or involvement in child p_rn_graphy are concealed.

[@BereanHoliness]

Yes, we’re familiar with this sect thanks to others who have left and told us about it. There are a lot of similarities to our backgrounds. Thank God for revealing His grace and the biblical gospel to all of us!

[@carlin3152]

@@BereanHoliness 100%!! Finding out the biblical gospel is what got me out!

[@rlolo777]

6:01 Self-righteous much? He is no better than the pharisees. This is what keeps people from God because it keeps them from repentance. It keeps their heart far from God because they never repent and so they are never reconciled before him. They live forever abusing grace and never ask for forgiveness.

[@priscillaaitchison8213]

Hi,what about woman co pastor's in churches,as most churches in Australia have them?I have come from Catholicism to pentecostal boarding on spiritualism,now undecided at a baptist church that doesn't operate in any kind of gifts being tongues healing or fundamentalism?

[@plushie.fans.inc.toy-reviews.]

God does not approve of women pastors :) to learn about this I would suggest reading 1 Corinthians and 1 Timothy.

[@conceptualclarity]

Women co-pastors is terribly wrong, and Christians must oppose it in accordance with I Cor. 14:33b-37 and I Timothy 2:11-14.

[@graysonbr]

There are IFBs like this too. Accidentally, joined one for about two years. They never revealed their views about the KJV and women in pants as well. They were flexible on pants if you're in the audience but not in singing on stage. One of the singers always had very lavish dresses. Felt like they completely strained gnats while swallowing camels.

[@rlolo777]

Yes. We just left an IFB church like this. They aren't all like this. I grew up in a sane one. But now we have to find a new church and I hate it.

[@JamesBond-ly7en]

There are so many different types of Baptists and so many different kinds of “IFB” it can make your head spin. I hope you both find good Biblical churches to belong too!

[@js5860]

Also, sound’s uncanny like the Amish communities. So glad you ladies got out of that. Yes, Pharisee behavior for sure.

[@rlolo777]

20:00 yes! I feel the same burden. And I was educated in their schools but for some reason, this new church we joined, they didn't accept me, meaning, they didn't listen. There seems to be this us vs. you mentality between fulltimers and laymen by the leadership. Like, if you weren't called to fulltime service, you're not as spiritual. If you're a layperson, your interpretation isn't as correct as theirs. I wasn't reputable in their eyes. I also realized by staying in the church to try to correct their bad views and attitude, I was doing what Puritans did, and I'm not a Puritan, I'm a Separatist, so, we left.

[@1momofmen48]

I so resonate with disliking hearing “ I love you”. It’s code for more abuse

[@broz1488]

Let's talk honestly. Woman have been cursed to have a desire for their husbands, Genesis 3:16. This desire is not necessarily sexual, but a desire to be seen as beautiful by their husband and by default, men in general. Thus women will wear makeup to enhance their beauty, have pretty hairdos, put on pretty jewelry and wear revealing and immodest clothing, for the sole purpose of attracting male attention and to be seen as desirable in the eyes of males in general. Along with an unhealthy competition to outdo other women in being the prettiest woman in the room and thus secure the most male attention. This understanding was brought home for me one time when I was standing in a checkout line at a store. Ahead of me two young women were talking about their recent experience at a gay club. They were straight but had gone to a gay club over the weekend to experience it. The one said to the other that she was very uncomfortable there, that she felt like she was invisible. She complained that despite being all dressed up and looking stunning, the men at the gay club just looked right through her like she didn't exist. She said to her friend, do you know how long it took me to get ready, just to be ignored? The reason the Bible teaches that woman are to dress modestly, not wear makeup, nor wear jewelry, not have fancy hairdos, is so that women will not be tempted to attract men purely on physical desire alone. That the man they will attract as a future husband will be more interested in their personality and attributes, rather than in the fake external physical beauty they have sculptured, and will feel obligated for life to adhere to in order to hold on to their husbands attention. Ask any plastic surgeon what keeps their business going. The high divorce rate and general marital discomfort experienced by society at large, is proof that the external fake beauty whilst attracting men, is not going to result in a happy marriage. Conversely, the ultra low divorce rate in religious communities that do practice biblical standards of modesty, prove the wisdom of the Bible for teaching against women dressing in a provocative manner. And when I say low, I'm talking about a ratio of 1 divorce for every 500 marriages in some communities. God created us and God knows what's best for us. Instead of blaming the Church for being too strict in their dress code, perhaps the questions should rather be what insecurities are driving these women to want to dress less biblical and more enticing to men by the way they dress?

[@ashleyfranklin4080]

So men don’t dress or look a way certain to get attention from women?….EVER?

[@compulsivehonesty]

You know, I found myself kind of disagreeing with these women and a lot of the comments here because I believe in modesty and setting ourselves apart from the world. But then I read your comment and think "oh, they're talking about people like this." Assuming things about Christian wives based on something a young harlot said in the grocery store is NOT very discerning. You sound very scornful toward women. Myself and other Christian wives I know are very uncomfortable with male attention and only want it from our husbands. I dress differently when I'm alone with my husband. I style myself how he likes when we are out together. When I'm out without him I either don't care or I style a way that I prefer. The goal is never, ever to get attention from other men, in fact it is something I actively avoid not only because it's wrong to pursue but because I sincerely don't like being sexualized.

[@broz1488]

@@compulsivehonesty how do you go from me getting an insight from overhearing a conversation as to why women dress immodestly and wear tons of makeup, to Christian wives? Not only do you make a false connection between what I said and what you assumed I said, but then you want to attack me on your false assumption and accuse me of hating women? Check yourself lady, you are out of order.

[@broz1488]

@@ashleyfranklin4080 what has what men do got to do with what the Bible requires from you as a woman?

[@gillespaling7039]

Women are instructed to dress modestly yes, but I don’t think they are prohibited from wearing make up and jewellery.. Peter is warning against ostentatiousness and vanity.

[@priscillacoffey4379]

Thoughts on Tou Tuber Spencer Smith he is KJV IFB He has a lot of wisdom and some really good Documentaries However, I always wonder about IFB groups They seem to borderline on legalism

[@terryrossbach2521]

They are very legalistic

[@terryrossbach2521]

Just left one

[@pearcejayw]

I think Spencer Smith is the least legalist IFB influencer that I ever know. He is still humorist, he is not against every kind of entertainment, and he is not a Calvinist-hater either. Even he is still respected by some reformed baptist (Calvinist) pastors as a good Christian.

[@danbrown586]

This video would have benefited greatly from careful definition of terms--for example, what exactly is meant by "fundamentalism"? Or "legalism"? Because I think most of the world would call you guys (Apologia Church) fundamentalists and legalists. I'd probably add "holiness" to that list; Natalie is clearly using it differently than the Bible does.

[@ricksonora6656]

You’re exactly right. Fundamentalist Christians reject adding to the scriptures. That puts these sisters’ Pentecostal churches outside of fundamentalism. Also, some fundamentalists are legalistic, but legalism is not an attribute of fundamentalism. Using the two terms synonymously slanders fundamentalists.

[@gillespaling7039]

@@ricksonora6656 what does legalism mean? No one has ever given me a definition or an objective test for it.

[@ricksonora6656]

@@gillespaling7039 Good question. Broadly, it means setting any sort of actions as a requirement for salvation. That includes avoiding certain sins, doing good deeds, taking part of ceremonies (or having someone perform them on you), or persevering in belief. In the Jewish context, it meant keeping the 613 commands in the Mosaic Law. In the letter to the Romans, Paul exhaustively portrays faith and works, and grace and wages, as mutually exclusive. There’s also an even more general use, applied to believers: If you’re not keeping all the rules we make, you can’t have fellowship with, be used by, or be blessed by God, even though you’re saved and kept saved. People can get really carried away with rules.

[@gillespaling7039]

@@ricksonora6656 So which sins are permissible?

[@ricksonora6656]

@@gillespaling7039 Define permissible, remove the hidden assumption that all human rules define sins, and ask the question again. Oh, wait… I know the answer: The permissible sins are the ones YOU commit.

[@nathang9264]

If you love christ you will follow his commandments? That's what he said . There is a fine line between legalism and following Christ 's instructions. I consider legalism works . And judging others for what they are doing . But I find nothing wrong with following the teachings of the bible as close as possible. Fundamentalist aren't all legalist. They just are against sin . With most churches today a fundamental church trumps the contemporary , no gospel , justification of sinful lifestyles, women pastors , exc.

[@romandaigle455]

What is wrong with women wearing dresses and dressing modestly? We are following the Bible when we dress modestly and don’t wear bright makeup. Saundra Daigle

[@CoffeeCrazy]

Nothing wrong with that but what is wrong is to bound folks up under the premise that wearing pants as a woman is sin or wearing makeup is a sin.. a lot of these “churches” gives a false idea of sanctification and thus have women wearing long sleeves even in the summer. It promotes man’s ideal of modesty and sanctification.

[@romandaigle455]

@@CoffeeCrazyman’s ideal or biblical ideal?

[@CoffeeCrazy]

@@romandaigle455 clearly man’s ideal. No scripture stating it is a sin by wearing pants , short sleeves, makeup, or any uniform code of dress. Yes we are to dress modestly, but do you follow your pastor’s ideal of modesty or would you allow the Holy Spirit to help you in determining that. Is red a sinful color to wear? Or purple? Should I only wear light clothing or gray? Should my dress be 2 inches from the ground or four Is it okay to show my ankles. These are the issues that you have when a man tries to give you his idea of holiness and sanctified dress. The outer clothes does not sanctify you, it is a matter what comes out of your heart.

[@romandaigle455]

@@CoffeeCrazyI hear you and for the most part I agree. I am for modest dress and minimal makeup because I believe it’s Biblical.

[@BC-qb2if]

What is the name of the book that Jennifer wrote?

[@amateurfaithnight1959]

Free, From Legalism to Grace Breaking Out of the United Pentecostal Church

[@emilypaige732]

Off topic, but you guys should discuss Hillsong… they were definitely cultish in my opinion.

[@finray2]

I grew up in a fundamentalist church and always thought it was a positive thing that we were considered fundamentalist. I always thought fundamentalist meant true biblical Christianity and conservative politics. I now understand that fundamentalism is not the same as biblical gospel Christ-centered teaching. Fundamentalism is man's attempt to add to the gospel.

[@ricksonora6656]

Fundamentalism explicitly rejects adding to scriptures. The world has broadened the definition to the point of making it meaningless.

[@finray2]

@@ricksonora6656 fundamentalism first of all is not a specific ideology...it encompasses a lot of different conservative Christian groups. Some of which do add to the gospel some of which do not. I'm not sure how you can say fundamentalism itself rejects the idea of adding to the gospel. I grew up in a church that said women cannot wear pants and kids could not wear shorts to church. They also said that the King James version is the only version. these are adding to the gospel.

[@ricksonora6656]

@@finray2 First, you have to know the ontology. Around 1900, Evangelicalism split from Modernism, which has morphed into Progessivism. Modernism added now-obsolete archaeology and philosophy to the scriptures. Evangelicals said, no, stick to the scriptures. Pentecostalism has always been outside of both groups. In the 1960’s, Pentecostals started infiltrating non-Pentecostal churches with a sort of Pentecostal-lite. That’s “Charismatism.” Around the same time, Evangelicals divided into New Evangelicals and Fundamentalists. The primary difference between them was that New or Neo-Evangelicalism is moderately ecumenical. This coincided with Charismatism because of their emphasis on experience. How can you say a Modalist or Mary-worshipper isn’t Christian when she speaks in tongues just like you? New Evangelicals refused to draw a clear line, for example, Billy Graham pairing up Catholics who went forward with Catholic priests. Fundamentalism has always embraced Sola Scriptura. Pentecostals have always been outside of it. So, Fundamentalism is not a specific denomination, but it does define boundaries that people tend to ignore. Like Protestant and Evangelical, it’s almost a useless term because it’s so abused. Second, the examples you give are incomplete. Each example has to end with “for (purpose).” If the missing part is “for salvation,” that is adding to scriptures. Legalism is outside of Fundamentalism because it adds to the gospel. If the missing part is “to apply a scriptural prohibition (e.g., against cross dressing or against inducing lust) so that you maintain a good testimony,” then it’s not adding, it’s applying. The purpose of maintaining a good testimony, at least in theory, is to love the unsaved. Technically, that’s not legalism. Of course, it’s easy to forget why you do something, but (again) technically, legalism is outside Christian Fundamentalism because it’s outside the Christian gospel. Restated: Legalism isn’t Christian, so it’s outside Christian Fundamentalism. The unsaved world has turned “fundamentalist” into a pejorative meaning “fanatic (of any religion),” so I’m careful to choose my terms based on whom I speak to.

[@rlolo777]

​@@ricksonora6656 there is legalism is practice, though.

[@ricksonora6656]

@@rlolo777 Go back and read the distinction between purposes.

[@mattbaldwin247]

I come from the exact church background (not the Oklahoma influenced sect of it) as Natalie. I have landed in a far more centrist position than she has, but I’ve also seen people completely walk away from the faith due to the abuses and legalism taught.

[@BereanHoliness]

If you have time to elaborate, I’d be interested to hear what you mean by/consider a “far more centrist position.” Thanks, Natalie

[@mattbaldwin247]

@@BereanHoliness “far more” is probably to harsh a word. I agree with much that you said, where I landed is in a space that leaves me far to “worldly” to borrow familiar wording for both of us, for the hm, but still to “conservative” for most mainstream charismatic churches. Maybe I’m misrepresenting where you landed and we share similar standings. If that’s the case I apologize, obviously I have a beard and wear shorts 🫣🤣 if you know you know, but my wife continues to wear skirts, as do our daughters. Not because we believe it a salvific issue but it’s what she feels most comfortable in. Our church is a mishmash of convictions on those things which I think is an outward sign of a healthy church, our pastor and the leadership of the church have went to lengths to foster that. I think a bigger thing is that I was never connected within the movement as a whole and when I left there was no strong backlash to crucify me like there was toward you. I can still freely attend services at surrounding hm affiliated churches and still be welcomed as a brother, albeit not in the more extreme iterations like Dryden, Bristow, Allentown or the like. We both know I’m anathema to them lol.

[@BereanHoliness]

@@mattbaldwin247 Thanks for clarifying! Yeah, no worries, when I originally read your comment I thought to myself, “How left of center do people think I am these days-is there a new rumor I haven’t heard?” 😂 I think it’s good and healthy for individual believers to decide for themselves how to apply Scripture practically, so I have nothing against those who do so and decide to have stricter standards than myself in some areas. I differ when strict, extra-biblical standards are forced upon other believers through manipulation, fear tactics, shaming, etc. or blatant twisting of Scripture (and I understand you’re not advocating for that). I somewhat envy your ability to still fellowship and be treated as a Christian by part of the Holiness movement. I greatly miss the people. But, I’ve found that visiting almost always results in not-so-subtle hints that I’m viewed as a threat and need to leave or in an awkwardly targeted sermon. But, hey, maybe things will get better with time, one can only hope. Thanks again for the clarification. -Natalie

[@mattbaldwin247]

@@BereanHoliness absolutely! No, I haven't heard any new rumors but if I dug a little, I'm sure I could find a few lol. I agree with you that when manipulation, fear, ect are used that it is unBiblical and needs exposed at all levels. I haven't had a targeted sermon outside of the random message about how terrible millennials are and being a millennial I felt "triggered" lol. I really feel like we are working in the same ministry field. Our church has become a safe landing spot for local disillusioned HM congregants, we have been referred to as "the (my pastors name) crowd" by the area HM political leaders. It's ironic that they are so proud of their unaffiliation with denominations yet run themselves no better than if they had one.

[@BereanHoliness]

@@mattbaldwin247 It’s great to hear your church is a safe haven for those who are leaving stricter churches in the local area. It’s so helpful to have a faith community that understands the difficulties of disentangling from hyper-fundamentalism. Keep up the good work there! I feel like I know several of the congregants through interactions via BH, so who knows, maybe I’ll get to visit and meet you all in person someday. But only under the condition that there’s not a sermon about “bitter bloggers.” 😆 -Natalie

[@allieoop2908]

Maybe change the video title to legalism

[@heathertaylor8358]

The Bible does NOT support women wearing dresses/skirts ONLY!! The Bible tells us that it is an abomination for women to wear men’s apparel and men to wear women’s apparel!! Going by the flawed logic of the organization I’ve recently come out of with my husband, we should probably all be wearing the long flowing tunics of the Hebrew children back in the days of Jesus! The Word of God does not change but fashion and culture do change!! Modesty is not dependent on whether women wear women’s pants but on how well we cover up the ‘uncomely’ parts! I’ve seen women singing in front of a congregation wearing skirts so tight that you could see the outline of their underwear!! Sure … they were dressing according to the code of the organization but I’m pretty sure that wasn’t modest!!

[@rlolo777]

Here here!!! 👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼 I've seen the same thing at the church we just left. To the point that the pastor just changed the rules for singing onstage to "loose-fitting skirts covering the knee."

[@beccab1585]

Funny she mentioned there like the Pharaisees that is exactly the word I use to describe JW as modern day Pharaisees

[@rlolo777]

Untangle or disentangle??? 🤔🤔🤔

[@rlolo777]

49:45 she talks about community and groups, but I joined a group called IFB CULT SURVIVORS UNITE and I found it more destructive than helpful. Everyone just bashed Christianity as a whole or bashed the KJV, or bashed certain Bible colleges. I had to leave that group. As far as what I believed, I was doing fine. I didn't need that group reminding me of all the atrocities of the IFB Cult (not to be confused with regular IFB churches, so don't get offended, IFB reader).

[@matthewm3912]

I feel like the word fundamentalist is being thrown around way to loosely here. I consider myself an independent fundamental baptist, and i am not a cult member. I belive fundamentalism is about being orthodox in sound doctrine, being orthodox in your methodology, and keeping yourself separated from worldliness and bad doctrine.

[@bornbranded29]

So the thumbnail is attacking women who don't want to dress like prostitutes in church? That's an L for Apologia.

[@AdventurePug]

Mike winger was a scientologist?

[@NikkiSchumacherOfficial]

Can y’all link the book she wrote?

[@amateurfaithnight1959]

The book is called, Free: From Legalism to Grace, Breaking Out of the United Pentecostal Church.

[@NikkiSchumacherOfficial]

Dude. Would be cool to see y’all on Kentucky.

[@stephaniejazzy7359]

Ask yourself this: are you're truly trying to bring glory to God in your clothing? Or are you trying to look good for the world? Do you want others to see your toned legs and draw attention to your body? That's when it becomes wrong. It's not a law of makeup or no makeup or pants or no pants. It's using the God given command: dress modestly and have no idols. If a woman is truly wanting to dress for the Lord she will wear loose clothing that doesn't draw any attention to her body. Skin tight yoga pants are a stumbling block. You're basically naked with spray paint. That's it. So I say this all because I know I am saved by grace through faith. I will not go to hell for wearing pants or makeup. I think long dresses are some of the most modest and God glorifying things to wear. If you think wearing pants that allow every man to know the exact shape of your butt is God glorifying, then you're wrong.

[@MartinJ70]

This comment is slept on sister. many people will just try to justify their natural desire to sin and to that we can only let God be the judge. God bless.

[@Earthdog777]

Whats wrong with thinking the KJV is the best translation. After extensive research i trust it more than other Bibles. Thats not cultish.

[@pearcejayw]

Ofc there is nothing wrong with admiting KJV as best translation. The wrong thing is when you call all other translations as demonic and from satan, even called the Christians who used them as unsaved.

[@Earthdog777]

@pearcejayw I would never do that. There are good translations such as the ESV, NASB, and new king James.

[@pearcejayw]

@@Earthdog777 good, I'm glad you don't. But truly there are some IFB who are like that.

[@Earthdog777]

I would never go to an ifb church. There theology is messed up.

[@pearcejayw]

@@Earthdog777 yeah for real

[@howardmakely2169]

' "She believed she could so she did" Sounds like a feminist manifesto all wrapped up in a short sentence. So what religion is Cultish?

[@rlolo777]

No wedding rings is pretty extreme! I'd also like to add to her list of all the things you can't do, the JW's: no birthdays, no holidays. But you can celebrate your anniversary of course.

[@jennylynn8314]

As I read these comments, so many come across with the thought process of this strict fundamentalist Christian school o grew up in.... where if you don't wear long dresses and adhere to what this group defines as modest should be condemned. Maybe they don't mean to sound judgy... but it definitely brought up the feelings of inadequacy I used to have. And if I wear pants or shorts, I'm a hypocrite and better stay away from God. Each person can choose how they define modest. But it can be damaging to Christians and their walk with God if we say there's only one standard of modesty .

[@romandaigle455]

Read Creeping Compromise by Joe Crews, Satan is the master of subtlety and when we obey God with everything we have, he is the first one the vilify fundamentalism and cry legalism.

[@Jimmy-iy9pl]

I don't really care about fundamentalism per se, but I find it hard to believe that chastising and even attacking women for wearing pants or jewelry or makeup or whatever is conducive to spiritual or intellectual growth. There are some other examples you could list like anti-intellectual attitudes and KJV worship. Overly critical views of other Christian groups that don't agree with them. Alcohol.

[@romandaigle455]

@@Jimmy-iy9plno one is attacking or chastising, it’s modest dress that is part of being a Godly woman. Think about how dress ( and behavior) have Changed dramatically over the last 100 years. They go hand in hand. When you dress like the Jezebel spirit you cause people to sin through lust of the flesh. You are definitely having a hand in them sinning and will have to answer for that.