Dark Souls Lore - Old Dragonslayer

Dark Souls Lore - Old Dragonslayer
The guardian of Heide cathedral! Or the Blue Cathedral, I should say. Perhaps a strange character to start with, as he has no dialogue and nobody even mentions him in game - not even Targray! But it makes a good bridge from the first game to the second, and it was something I was personally very eager to talk about.
But what do you think? Just what is the Old Dragonslayer? Ornstein, resurrected in a new body? Ornstein in the same body? An imposter? Or perhaps just an illusion, created by Targray to test those who would be Sentinels? Try the poll! strawpoll.me/1793760
The main questions from today's episode:
-Is the Old Dragonslayer Ornstein? Or someone else?
-If he is, then what is he doing in Heide?
-If not, why is he "imitating" the famous Dragonslayer?
Like that pic of Dragonslayer? You can get it on shirts/hoodies/stickers! Which also supports the artist:
rdbl.co/2iAmHJc
#darksouls
#darksoulslore
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[@UkonRenjishi]

Or, it's just Ornstein's twin brother, Einstein!

[@WFoong98]

He totally should had shredded our atoms and using nukes.

[@SilverMont]

Coming in Dark Souls III: A battle against Einstein, Zweistein and Dreistein.

[@vorname_6856]

Silver Mont Vierstein (☞ﾟ∀ﾟ)☞

[@vampiiko350]

Ukon Renjishi Epstein

[@Yourmom-cx8fw]

Epstein

[@blake-peace]

Maybe Ornstein just rested at a bonfire? And got a new fashion sense?

[@saintsauce853]

seems legit

[@nukefordays1653]

Legit

[@Jaseroni]

He used a humanity to turn gold and when he died he turned back to stone

[@mehname8597]

His soul caught the undead curse...

[@rollingthunder8630]

Blake Peace This weakling couldn't be Ornstein. Ornstein actually kicked everyone's ass the first time.

[@GinIchigo]

I'm seriously upset about the lack of wearable Ornstein armor.

[@SilverMont]

I know, right? Soon as I found out about Dark Souls II having cloth physics, I was thinking "Oh neat, maybe we can get Ornstein's armour with the plume!" And they shattered my dreams.

[@GinIchigo]

Silver Mont Seriously man.

[@zody14]

Maybe the new DLC will have it. But I doubt it. And your right. REALLY liked it in Dark Souls.

[@Simon200o]

There are some boss sets you can't get (like the one from the persuer). Don't knpw why thebreak with this awsome gameplay mechanic of getting every armor ingame...

[@GinIchigo]

Simon200o Pursuer armor at least should be usable.

[@juanjuanfive6805]

Thank god for ds3. nameless king was ornsteins mentor so to speak, and when nameless betrayed Gwyn and helped the dragons ornstein went to fight nameless king and was defeated, explaining his armor and weapon there. This also essentially confirms the ornstein you fight in the space jam duo fight is most likely an illusion, and smough is truly the last knight guarding anor londo all alone...

[@asakeel92]

He went to join him, not fight him. else wise you would find his armor on his corpse, which you don't. As a matter of fact. go read the Sacred Oath miracle "This is the tale of the Sun's firstborn, his faithful first knight (aka Ornstein), and the brave dragonslayer who served them both". Now keep in mind the word faithful. The Leo ring compounds the fact that Ornstein and the Firstborn were not enemies "Ornstein was the first knight of the sun's eldest born". The question is, who was the Dragonslayer that served them both? Havel maybe? or Solaire? Maybe it's the boss of Heides tower of flame.

[@spinyslasher6586]

+StormLord that boss is too stupid to serve Ornstein and the Nameless King.

[@manmanboyboydudedudeguyguy2800]

StormLord wasnt solaire possibly his most faithfull knight

[@giacomorinaldi8803]

The faithful (first) knight is Ornstein (Leo ring description). We don't know his reasons to go find the king, but he sure died in the process The brave dragonslayer is the owner of the dragonslayer armour in lothric castle (You find the miracle praying to the firstborn altar, which is literally two steps from the boss room: ockham razor y'all)

[@andryuu_2000]

@@giacomorinaldi8803 look at the color of the possessed dragonslayer in ds3, same as the one in heide

[@Dantick09]

Without Smough he is half the boss he used to be. Maybe he wanted a new look to go with the dark magic and sadness of being the last knight standing.

[@maskedmenreiki]

Mauro Molinero Or we could go with the theory that now that Gwyn is gone, Ornstein abandoned his duty of killing dragons to seek out the Sun’s Firstborn. In an age of Giants, (who are weak to dark) it would make sense that he learned a new way to combat the enemy.

[@austingage6465]

I’m gonna point out that Smough was the last knight to stand his post.

[@ronaldachille7998]

Smough was never a true knight, though he always wanted to be. He was always titled as the executioner of Anor Londo.

[@cailumgrantham-tibbitt8543]

Uhh every time I fight this boss the spacejam theme plays in my head

[@ethanwood7374]

same

[@cactuscubing3195]

I WANNA SLAM!

[@NeoRimeOnline]

You can thank Afro for that.

[@hollow6189]

C'MON AND SLAM, AND WELCOME TO THE JAM

[@AbandonedAccount-j29uk]

Im gonna be cringe for this but whenever i fight the old dragonslayer i hear battle against a true hero in my head :p

[@crabman96]

I like to think that this is a follower of Ornstein (one of the dragonslayers that accompanied him in the war against the dragons) and after Ornstein died, whether or not you took the Leo Ring, this lone dragonslayer found it and is now keeping the legend of Ornstein alive.

[@The_Blog]

Lord Burgerus King of the 'Tism I like that theory :)

[@abigailgiraldo6596]

orinstin was never dead, dude he was an a ghost or illusion when we fought him in anor lando. Read his armor description in dark souls 3

[@blackmane1999]

@@abigailgiraldo6596 he must have died after such a long time man- oldage sickness etc

[@ash_1419]

@@blackmane1999 these things are literal gods, they can live upto 1000s of years

[@ub3rfr3nzy94]

I always thought Orestein's armour was brass, the old dragonslayer's armour looks the same as tarnished brass. My theory is that just like energy, souls cannot be destroyed, they just change state, therefore souls will always reappear. The four lord souls, the dark soul, the dragon slayer's soul etc. The being who was born with or attained the soul of Ornstein was drawn to the ancient armour.

[@terriblehibibi4333]

dark soul is great soul

[@Sanguis3k]

+Nikolaos Giannoulatos (UB3RFR3NZY) related to this I always thought that part of the reason Ornstein's armour was so bright was essentially that his soul was making it brilliant, that or the power of Gwyn / Gwynevere or even Gwyndolin. given they are absent in the sequel and his soul is mentioned as the old dragonslayer soul it could be that his power has waned or even his soul has lost some of it's brilliance or both which given his much weakened form would back up. this is represented by his armour no longer being the brilliant shining dragonslayer armour that was once his trademark but instead almost a tired version of him and his armour which we encounter for this fight. it also fit with the dilapidated and much more run down tone of the second game and the area we find him in

[@SeraphimDragon]

+Nikolaos Giannoulatos (UB3RFR3NZY) Well since the release of Dark Souls 3, and multiple NPC look-alikes, I'd have to agree with this theory the most. I mean, Patches is fucking back. Again. In the world of Dark/Demon's Souls, life and death seems to be irrelevant for particular people. Sure people can be 'killed' and they 'die', but it's like the world itself won't allow their existence to truly fade away. Instead, they become corrupt if their soul is weak. Alternatively, the only way to retain your existence or self-awareness is to take another's soul if you're not inherently strong enough to begin with. Which seems to be the case with Ornstein's soul. Or maybe to become that strong, taking souls is necessary as it seems all souls are fated to become corrupted. Which explains why killing bosses doesn't just grant you their soul, but THOUSANDS of others. As the main character, you can only grow stronger by accumulating a mass amount of souls just like a boss.

[@Sanguis3k]

one of the things that I always understood was that souls of sufficient strength influence the bearer and so unless the bearer is quite strong willed or powerful already they will slowly become more like the strongest soul they possess, for example the soul of Ornstein. somehow the player character in each souls game possesses a special soul that allows them to keep themselves while holding these souls. but given this like the idea that greater souls make you grow larger seems to be over an incredibly slow process and the events in the games take place over anywhere from hours, days, weeks, months or if you ascribe to certain theories about bonfires years it still isn't long enough for these souls to have their effect showing

[@adachiandmarie6024]

That is the second dumbest shit I've ever heard

[@blank4227]

I think the Old Dragonslayer is the real Ornstein, and the Ornstein and Smough we fought in the first game were part of the illusion. Ornstein and Smough have insanely clean and shiny armor, despite apparently guarding the same room for aeons. The Old Dragonslayer is the real Dragonslayer Ornstein (his name forgotten by time when Dark Souls 2 comes around). I would assume he left because he was loyal to Gwyn, and both Gwyn and Gwynevere had abandoned Anor Londo, leaving only Gwyndolin... the odd child. This also explains why Ornstein and Smough were able to "absorb each other's energy" despite no other character being able to do that. It was all fake! Find it hard to believe he would remain and guard an illusion of the princess, and *die* for that illusion. I think lore-wise he was also an illusion, because Gwyndolin seems to be the only god left who believed in maintaining it (Gwyndolin guards his father's honorary tomb). He left Anor Londo, and was uncovered countless years later in DkS2, a decayed and tarnished shell of what he used to be.

[@jas6853]

+Al Capwn Ornstein wasn't with smough, if you read snough's armor in DS3 it says smough was the last one at the ruined cathedral, and Ornstein's armor says he left to look for his old friend the nameless king, so he left before we got to the cathedral so he was probably an illusion.

[@Xavier_Thine_Rat]

+Al Capwn in dark souls 3 you find ornstiens armor in a secret area. so he left to go seek the nameless king which was his master

[@dj-hy8hh]

Thanks blank face very cool!

[@nathanvargas1181]

blank face maybe DS2 takes place after DS3

[@UnholyWrath3277]

@@nathanvargas1181 highly unlikely being as there is ds2 locations and armors in ds3 plus the drang armor is from the. "distant land known for the legend of linking the fire" also the ringed City and dreg heap(which is where the kiln is as well) are at the end of the world and time

[@VideoGamerize]

this is pretty interesting...

[@kylemanila7205]

What do you think

[@colin5508]

Says thine "Dragon Slayer."

[@ZoroZetsumei]

There are four kings in dark souls 2, vendrick, ivory king, iron king, sunken king so maybe those are the four king's influence idk

[@yeehawidv4618]

Hi! I know this is an old post but this peaked my interest and i felt like dropping my thoughts. In my opinion i think thats its not entirely crazy to think that the ornstein in anor londo was indeed an illusion based on smoughs great hammers description from ds3 about him being the last at his post meaning ornstein had already departed to look for NK. Ornstein seemed is portrayed as honourable to a fault in ds1 especially during the cutscene during the bossfight where he acknowledges smoughs death by laying his hand on him before absorbing his power. NK was gwyns heir and was supposed to be the next in line to link the flame. Once the gods departed from anor londo due to the fading of the flame he felt honour bound to bring NK back to finish his duty. Moving onto ds2 and for his change to dark/hex magic. In DS1 there was a type of weapon called occult weapons which where used to combat the gods. Just how dragons are weak to lightning gods are weak to dark. At some point in time he became exposed to darkness similar to velstadt or artorias but instead of being overcome by it honed it to be used against NK it would have also imbued itself upon his armour causing the change in its appearance. The fact that the NPC after defeating the old dragonslayer makes no mention of him also leads me to believe he wasnt a resident of the cathedral and that he was still on a journey. As for DS3 its fairly obvious ornstein made it to archdragon peak but not much information is given as to what happened here. His armour is not found upon a corpse implying that it was merely discarded. The NPC hawkwood showed that it is possible to become a dragon. Infact all armour is has to be removed for the individual dragon pieces to be used a reason why ornsteins has just been left there. It is also possible that ornstein may have given up on trying to bring NK back to anor londo due to its new "residents" and instead gave up his knighthood to serve the last of gywns line and became NKs storm drake. This of course is all speculation although the cutscene of when nks storm drake dies and when smough dies are both eerily similar. Anyways i doubt very few people will read this and im sorry its so long but thats my theory XD

[@hariimakenji3098]

This is going to be a bit of a wall of text, so apologies in advance... Well, this is a bit of a pet theory of mine, but I am not even sure that the Drangleic we explore is "real." Consider the Aged Feather's description: "The child of the dragon, sequestered away from the world, imagined a world of boundless possibilities from the mere sight of a feather." It's so reminiscent of Pricilla's doll that I can't help but think that the similarity is intentional. As such, I feel it's possible that the Drangleic we explore is a construct of the Emerald Herald, pieced together from legends and tales the Herald herself has heard. When you consider that the Herald's manifestation lead you to what seems to be a portal, and that Things Betwixt is described as a limbo and a place between the outside world and Drangleic, there seems to be some disconnect between the real world and Drangleic. There is also some strange contradictions that exist on Drangleic. Such as the age of the Herald, that there seems to exist evidence that Drangleic is simultaneously Lordran and not Lordran, and the bizarre geography of the land. In the end, I think it's caused by the Herald having created the world of Drangleic from legends. It's why things seem a bit... Jumbled? And that also explains my stance on the Old Dragon Slayer, he is a misremembered legend, an almost literal shadow of his former self.

[@SilverMont]

An interesting theory!

[@lindseyormsbee]

Now that's a theory I've never heard. Nice

[@cringyboring]

That also explains why u take an elevator that goes up into the sky from earthen peak and end up in iron keep

[@Celatra]

But then again, we see earthen peak in darksouls 3 Plus yeah, you get into a limbo, but this limbo was also somewhere back in time.... I love dark souls 2 but this is just a hot mess

[@wokerwanderung]

The Old Dragonslayer is as much Ornstein as the Lost Sinner is the Witch of Izalith. These souls appeared from the fire, and having a history of their own they shaped the destinies of those who claimed them.

[@MrSoup-zs4rd]

maybe his armor is dark because of his dark enchantment? Like, maybe Orienstiens armor was yellow because of his lightning enchantment, like the armor reflects the enchantment?

[@ibn_ismail]

Smough's armor was not gold due to a lightning enchantment.

[@GRiznitDShiznit]

I hope we see Ornstein in the next games. Just this ultra badass knight that can't stay dead lol.

[@SilverMont]

I like Ornstein a lot, but I don't think I'd like to see him again. I feel like they brought back too much stuff from the first game just for the sake of it, without adding anything new - by which I mean, sure it's cool that we got to fight Ornstein again, but we didn't learn anything new about him.

[@GRiznitDShiznit]

Silver Mont Well, Dark Souls in general is basically just Demon's Souls. They do need some fresh, new ideas that made Demon's Souls feel so new and innovative. I hope people like you can find out answers in the Lore soon. I'm actually hoping there's DLC for this. I hate DLC but the Souls series uses well... Besides the preorder weapons - which was stupid.

[@WFoong98]

GriznitDshiznit Nah, per-order are just some lazy-ass late game weapons, it save you from spending just small amount of SOULS :P they are not great anyway.

[@Xenos369]

Silver Mont Exactly, DS2 had an alarming amount of bosses that felt too similar (or just ripped) from the first game! Ornstien, Gargoyles, Rat Authority (sif), Ancient dragon (kalameet), Najka (quelaag). I hoped for DS2 to be more original with bosses, but we just got a buttload of guys in armor, swinging a large weapon

[@SilverMont]

Xenos369 I WISH Ancient Dragon was like Kalameet, haha. Kalameet was hard but fair. Ancient Dragon is ass! And... yeah, I'm trying to think of some inventive, cool bosses that are in Dark Souls II and I'm coming up with blanks. I mean, Velstadt and Dragonrider look cool, but I've been making some boss guide videos and I'm not even joking, the same tactic works for almost every boss. Kinda disappointing.

[@madcat789]

clearly, he is the love child of Ornstein and smough. his name is Jr.

[@SilverMont]

Ornstein Junior?

[@camiloprieto3814]

10/10 best comment.

[@jakke0272]

+Silver Mont Ornsmough Jr?

[@JHattsy]

I think it is Ornstein but I think it's a old, decrepit decaying Ornstein . He's lost hope, turned to dark magic, no longer has a reason or anything of value to him to guard so he broods away in his Cathedral; reminiscent of older, better times.

[@ub3rfr3nzy94]

+Hatter But remember that drangeic is far newer than Lordran, in Dark souls it's believed that it's almost 1000 years old. Inbetween lordrand and drangleic other kingdoms existed, so that would suggest ornstein had lived through all of them.

[@GyroFighting]

My theory is that the Ornstein we face in ds1 is an illusion. And the real Ornstein left long ago searching for the nameless king, he looked all around different lands until he came upon Heide and made it his temporary home. In ds3 canon we never killed the old dragonslayer in ds2 because he is an optional boss. So later he left to archdragon peak and found the nameless king. We even find his actual armor outside the boss.

[@lb_pip]

"Maybe he's an extreme cosplayer." XD

[@mr.reality3167]

here's my super amazing Theory they just got fucking lazy

[@gabrielperez9757]

Holy shit can that actually be, do you have a source or is it in any of the descriptions in the game

[@snizzletheshooter9877]

Because the damn wolf is slower than the covetous demon because he's like like 2048 years old

[@jesse9538]

Well, to be fair, this is an optional boss. I think that it was just Fromsoft giving an optional nostalgia boss. If it was a mandatory and storyline boss, I'd agree that it was lazy.

[@thebat5133]

oh my gosh

[@chet3032]

But The Old Dragon Slayer drops the "Leo Ring" and Ornstein dropped the Leo Ring.

[@connorjohnston5528]

I believed that the Old Dragonslayer was a knight like Onrstein who used to work wtih Gwyn to fight the dragons disagreed with the actions taken by Gwyn, Izalith and Neto when the flame was dying so he left. Gwyn wasn't happy about him leaving so in order to protect himself the Old Dragonslayer learnt Dark magic to fight off the Gwyns silver knights or maybe even Gwyn himself. He didn't like that Gwyn was focusing so much on burning humanity, maybe to such a degree that people were invading each others worlds to steal humanity. To make sure it wouldnt happen again he agreed to aid the Blue Sentinels in their protection of the weak.

[@dylanclark9488]

Connor Johnston hmm, interesting

[@itzamedio5427]

Connor Johnston I like that theory.

[@baines803]

pretty good

[@rasmuserlandsson2204]

+Connor Johnston Then why doesn't Targray mention him? And why do we have to kill him?

[@1983Corolla]

+Connor Johnston Problem with that is Ornsteins Armor and Ring was only something he had, it wasn't a replicated set of armor or replicated ring. Old Dragonslayer is probably just a tidbit of fanservice, not a lore thing, is what I think, honestly.

[@liaorsomething846]

I always watch your video's while studying, your voice is so soothing. It also allows me to learn about something I enjoy ... and well something I have to learn about.

[@knightartorias8154]

Also if you picked to kill ornstein first, smough absorbs all of his power so maybe he survived being smashed ( he is still alive just before he's crushed by smoughs hammer cause his fingers are moving ) and had to find a new source of power.

[@Markis2bi4]

I have a theory for this, if I may? I believe this Old Dragon Slayer is THE Ornstein for two reasons: #1. Ornstein still had a piece of the Lord Soul of Light, passed down by Gwyn, Lord of Sunlight/Cinders. As a result, Ornstien has (or had I should say) true longevity; meaning if left alone, he'd be essentially immortal, or until someone or something stronger than he comes along, and then kills him. #2. The Way of the Blue, or the Blue Sentinels, are the descendants of the Moonlight Covenant. When you compare and contrast the two orders, the only real difference is that one has an existing god directing them, and the other does not. I believe they are descendants - although not exactly direct descendants - of the Moonlight Covenant because of Ornstien's presence in the Cathedral of Blue. It is possible that Ornstien, as a Knight of the Gods of Anor Londo, is or was obligated to serving the gods. On a technical stand-point, Gwyndolin was the only true god left after Lord Gwyn left to link the bonfires and prolong the Age of Fire. As a result, his loyalty lied with Gwyndolin, and acted as a type of de facto leader of the Moonlight Covenant, while guarding the false Gwynevere. When the last true god was defeated, the covenant was defeated and left leaderless. Perhaps in an alternate reality of Lordran, The Dragon Slayer survived his fight against the Chosen Undead, and helped lead the remaining members. Eventually, a new kingdom was founded by a new leader: King Vendrick of Drangleic. Seeing potential in Vendrick as Sir Aloone did with the Old Iron King, Ornstein and the surviving members aided the new and young king to reclaim the four souls of Old, and reestablish the covenant as the Way of the Blue. Sadly, as for why he turned from the Light and fell to the Dark, when Vendrick fell in despair after learning of Nashandra's true nature, Ornstien soon too fell victim to her power of the Abyss. Knowing of this, he anointed Targray as the new leader of the Way of the Blue Covenant, ordering him to lead them in his stead. Perhaps the reason why Targray never mentions the Old Dragon Slayer, was because he felt that as soon as Ornstien left, it would be the last he'd ever see the once mighty warrior again. After that, all we get to fight is a Darkened, hollowed out shell of a former glorious Knight. As the new Chosen Undead, it is our duty to grant the Old Dragon Slayer an honorable end. At least, that is my theory anyway...

[@theendo4444]

The utmost simple, obvious answer is: He's the Dark souls version of Batman.

[@MrHood1313]

Personal (incomplete) Theory; Drangleic is a city built on the ruins of Anor Londo. Appologies for not being an old darksouls hand and knowing all these names... but in dark souls 2... That petrified dude that trades for boss souls... When I talked to him a few times, he was all... "Drangleic? Never heard that name. Is that what you call the Old Kingdom now?" He also says something about how one kingdom is built there, someone calls themselves the king or whatever, then it gets destroyed and another kingdom comes in its place... Now... this is the part of my theory that I both like the best, and cannot polish up quite right... I think Ornstien is... ... ... ... STILL THERE! Yeah. I think hes so hardcore-loyal to Gwyn, that he is still standing guard over the same patch of earth, despite the fact that kingdoms have come and gone. I picture some kind of "OH NO! WHILE REBUILDING ANOR LONDO INTO WILLIAMSBURG, WE DISTURBED THE RESTING PLACE OF THIS BIG MAMMA-JAMMA! QUICK! EVERYONE FLEE THE CATHEDRAL OF THE BLUE AND CLOSE THE GATE!" situation... that or... "Ooooooooohhhhhhmmmm... With the power of those who came before me, I command thee RISE AGAIN, DRAGONSLAYER!"... Anyway... fun to theorize. Anyone come to anything like that?

[@domtuber9897]

MrHood1313 Drangleic is set on a different part of the Undead world than Anor Londo, seeing how in Dark Souls 3 you can go to another londo

[@simple_most788]

its the same londo

[@simple_most788]

btw drangleic is a continent

[@yongli8276]

Corrupted Paladin I thought dark souls 2 take place in another dimension or realm?

[@brendanjoyce645]

MrHood1313 so what your saying Is after Anor Londo they literally just built everything around him

[@jackmasta3263]

I say he is Ornstein and here's my reasons why; in Dark Souls one, when you first fight him and Smough, he'd charge at you first, This creates an instinctive fear of him for us as fast bosses are always a pain to kill. This prompts us to focus on him more and take him out. Even if you focus on Smough, I found that (at least for me), when I get solaire to distract Ornstein, Ornstein would still somehow die 1st 66% of the time. This makes me feel that the game wanted him to die first which goes to the interesting part of my argument. When you kill a boss in game, you'd always get their soul. But when Smough nuked ornstein with his hammer and absorbed his "power", you only get the soul of Smough but not Ornstein when by all respects you should've had both if Smough absorbed his soul... unless he didnt. What Smough absorbed was not Ornsteins soul but his power for lightning. Ornstein might've actually lived that hammer to the face (or at least his soul remained intact) and now either lived through the ages or got respawned into the cycle again as his soul remained intact. This explains why he doesn't use lightning anymore as Smough absorbed that power from him and now he uses Dark which still uses Faith as a modifier.

[@aaronoliver4562]

what you should consider is that by killing the old dragon slayer, you get a special and therefore powerful soul. if gwyns 4 knights were given powerful souls, then that means that if it were another dragonslayer aside from orstein, then you wouldnt have been given a special soul

[@MenacingSnail]

Btw SO hyped for silver mont lore, awesome start, thanks!

[@SilverMont]

Haha, thanks man!

[@word2believe]

I love your videos and used to watch them while playing dark souls I, at the time i didnt had an account but now that i do ive subscribed. Im now watching the dark souls II lore videos while playing it. Thanks and keep up the good work!

[@Behemothreach117]

I'm so glad these lore videos are back!

[@SilverMont]

\o/

[@Emilsson96]

Just a silly theory, what if it is gwyn's firstborn son? I mean it have allways botherd me that the broken statue of the altar of sunlight have the Dragonslayer spear. The Warrior of Sunlight are the followers of the firstborn of the Great Lord Gwyn. He was banished, maby got his powers of sunlight (lightning) taken away from him? if he was banished from the gods, whuld it not be logical for him to hold a grudge? getting anti-god gear is a good start. gwyns first born was a god of war, like the war against dragons (that whuld make him a dragonslayer). Culd Ornstein have been the replacement for his son for the title of dragonslayer as his son whuld have been forgotten? And the the reason he is called the ''Old Dragonslayer'' culd be because they dont know his real name. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Ring of the Sun's Firstborn In Game Description Lord Gwyn's firstborn, who inherited the sunlight, once wore this ancient ring. Boosts the strength of miracles. Lord Gwyn's firstborn was a god of war, but his foolishness led to a loss of the annals, and rescinding of his deific status. Today, even his name is not known.

[@JTisOneCrazyMan20]

This was a popular theory for years, but from DS3 we now know the Nameless King is the first born of Gwyn, who Ornstein left Anor Londo to find and eventually did in Archdragon Peak

[@virusmom.]

I think I found a hint towards Old Dragonslayer being Ornstein, and as far as I looked, I didn't see anyone else mention it. The hair. If you get his armor in the first game, and wear it, you won't have the hair, unlike with Artorias' armor, meaning it was his actual hair. So he had red hair. Old Dragonslayer also has the red hair. If you check the description of the red hair/eyes in character creation, it says it is a very/extremely rare trait. What would be the chances for another dragonslayer to have the exact same hair color as Ornstein? This is just my lil observation and input. No intention to offend or anything .w.

[@SilverMont]

+So_Not_A_Virus I figured it was just a physics thing, to be honest. The version of Ornstein's armour you get in Dark Souls is somewhat different to his, outside of the plume - the shoulders, for example. And then the colour and material, too. Apparently they just had to change it a lot for the players.

[@virusmom.]

Silver Mont Yes, yes. I did observe it since I struggled with trying to draw it a few times over. And thank you for reminding me of the word for it (plume). I'll need to write that down before I forget it again.

[@TW-fj2dr]

Amusingly the thing that makes me believe that it's the same guy is the fact that the old dragonslayer uses a butt-slam as an attack. This is something that ornstein only began doing after he absorbed smoughs soul. We can see the very same technique being used by the old dragonslayer, only with Dark energy rather than lightning. Seems like smough dying first is canon, and ornstein still remembers his techniques

[@evitwin360]

Silver Mont you deserve alot more views then you are getting. These videos are so intriguing and interesting i could honestly watch them all day. I just wanted to say i appreciate it for showing me a more in depth look on my favorite game .

[@SilverMont]

Thanks man! I'm glad you like the vids.

[@bakerehren]

has anyone noticed that he does the butt pound move thats trademarked to smough? or the fact that his move set is that exactly of our dear beloved Ornstein? including the good ol' thrust and scoop as well as the impale. and lets not forget the armor. he was the Leo knight. not every dragonslayer in the army. just him. I know its Ornstein. I have 2 theories depending on whether or not he worked with smough. theory 1 (my favorite and ill tell why at the end) is that if he did work with smough before the story of Dark Souls 1 then thats how he picked up the butt pound move. no actual dragon slayer of gwyns army would use that brutish move correct? but he saw its use and kind of picked it up like the super ornstein illusion did in DS1. he accompanied gwynevere as a bodyguard and fled anor londo leaving naught but an illusion. he grows old and returns. my 2nd theory is that he did stay behind with smough and he did become super ornstein but when the player kills him they dont actually kill him. he continues living and grows old only to be met again. some people have said that in Dark Souls 2 that the old dragonslayer is an illusion of Ornstein. i dont believe that simply cuz of the fact that he is old. he moves slow showing that he has aged and gotten slower. much slower than in dark souls 1. this is also the reason i support theory 1 is because i dont think the chosen fought the real Ornstein. just a weakened version of him cuz he is an illusion. fast as lightning and everywhere at once. how could someone fight that? they cant lol. my theory is he came back from gwynevere aged and out of practice to resume his duty as a defender of the cathedral. and thats why hes slower yet still knows the butt pound move.

[@AnomalyAlter]

I believe it is the reincarnated soul of Ornstein. The 4 lord souls are present in the game in weaker forms of their original selves by way of the 4 old ones. In NG+ the old ones drop secondary souls which are evidently those of the lords. This implies they were born of, or at least infused by said souls. If Ornstein and the Knight's souls were in fact part of Gwyn's own Lord soul, which seems likely, what's to stop Ornstein from taking form once again? As for appearance...well...seeing as corruption is out the door, maybe it's to show his soul is more withered over time, or at least...not only his own. I could be misremembering, and if I am, disregard this bit, but doesn't this Dragonslayer's Ariel butt-slam seem like Smough's own attack? I don't recall Ornstein using this attack, so perhaps it happened thusly: Canonically speaking, Smough bites it first, Ornstein absorbs his power and is vanquished. Old Dragonslayer is the reincarnation of Ornstein, and in some part Smough's soul?

[@AnomalyAlter]

I'm a tad late to the party, so I'm certain this matter is already dealt with, but this is just what I felt seemed to fit

[@zephyrirons4658]

+Cole Jenkins (The Commander) yea the butt slam is smoughs move

[@Zac99]

While the buttslam is indeed Smough's move, Ornstein DOES use it after absorbing Smough should you kill Smough first.

[@sRtAoIrNm]

+Zachery Lawshe and that goes perfectly with his original point, thanks for pointing that out

[@Luca-sl7tb]

Here's my take on the Old Dragonslayer: I don't think he's Ornstein, far too much time has passed between Dark Souls and Dark Souls 2 for him to be still alive even ignoring the fact that, you know, he was either murdered by the Chosen Undead or a backstabbing Smough, and furthermore I don't think he's a reincarnation of his Soul (the Rotten has Nito's Soul but he's not Nito, the Lost Sinner has the Witch's Soul but she's not the Witch of Izalith, they are still different people with different shapes holding similar characteristic and traits but are never actual replicas). My theory is that, when the Gods fled Anor Londo with Gwynevere they must have gone somewhere, possibly building a new city for the slowly dying Gods. By the time of Dark Souls 2 the Gods must have all lost their power as very little remains of them. It's possible that Heide was either an ancient city built by the fleeing Gods or a Human civilization that was very close to the remnants of Anor Londo and who was inspired by their culture, the Old Dragonslayer could then be the last member of a knightly organization that was build in the image of the ancient Knight Ornstein as the Gods remembered him. In this interpretation the Old Dragonslayer would then be an imitator of Ornstein, a Knight made to pay homage to an hero of a past age by either Humans close to the remnants of the Divine Society of Lordran or the last Gods themselves. In any case the society the Old Dragonslayer belonged to must have long collapsed, and in a new Human-only Kingdom that prefers Dragon riders to Dragonslayers and has Dragons on its emblem there seems to be very little space left for this relic of the past.

[@coreytrevor1920]

I love these videos man, so nostalgic. and really well made, never change silvermont :)

[@kalmont84]

My theory is that they just wanted to reash a popular boss fight. Might just be me

[@SilverMont]

kalmont84 I think that is probably what happened!

[@SilverMont]

Seeing how divided opinions are, I thought it'd be interesting to do a poll: strawpoll.me/1793760

[@sshum00]

Well, the question really comes down to, if you killed Ornstein in DkS1, why would he still be alive in DkS2? There's the multiverse theory, there's the you didn't really kill Ornstein theory, etc. But honestly, at this point I'm done with trying to figure it out, I'm just going to let other people do the evidence gathering and see what comes out of it.

[@Himmelslaub]

I don't think this can be answered with a simple 'yes' or 'no'. As we see in the game, souls are everlasting, even when the Abyss devours the world in its entirety, souls never fade or always reignite like the flames. The 4 great souls, the soul of life, death, light and dark all still have their influence over the land, as stated in the game. Who's to say that only applies to the lord souls? As far as I'm concerned Ornstein's Soul reignited and formed anew. But why does he have the same armor and weapon? - There are a lot of items unique to Lordran that make an appearance in Drangleic. Since we're talking gear, an example would be Havel's Armor or the Judgment Set(Velka's). Ornstein's Armor and Weapons withstood the corrosion of the Abyss, so did the Leo Ring. I don't think he uses Dark Magic because it's effective against the cathedral's intruders. In the first game divine weapons were effective against the undead, while occult weapons were used against the so called gods. The undead came from the dark, so did all humans(we'll take non-undead out of the picture for now, because it'd get too confusing). The dark is not the most effective weapon against those who were born from dark. The so called gods inherited the great souls and thus their inner dark was replaced with light. Sorcery is the manipulation of dragon's souls, dark magic is the manipulation of Humanity, therefore the power of the Abyss. The simplest explanation as to why Ornstein uses dark magic is that he inherited it from the Abyss, but as you said, he doesn't seem to be corrupted by the dark. Maybe the Abyss changes the essence of some souls more than others. Some souls change completely, some hardly to not at all, so maybe the abyss transformed his power of light into one of the dark. Thank you for reading my ramblings! ^^ It's always nice to hear the theories and opinions of other people, all the best Alex!

[@DaxterL]

Well what i believe is that it is Ornestein the dragonslayer and in DS what we fought was indeed an illusion, here's what i think: Ornestein started building hate against Gwyn (reason: he didn't like for what he was fighting for) and so he abandoned him and because of that Gwyn "deleted" (or how should i say it) the great power of his armor, that's my explanation why it's darker and more silverish than gold. Also that's why he uses dark/occult imbued dragonslayer spear. You might now ask: "Why would he then make his copy to defend gwynevere ?" well not Gwyn but Gwyndolin did. Also i need to cover another theory about Gwyndolin to support this. (With this theory my friend came up, not me, i just accept it and believe it) Gwyndolin is not a son nor a daughter, it's just a shard of a soul that strong to keep it's very unstable form. He has his memories for what to do and that's keeping illusion of a sun and that everything just fine. He also made up his own memories like that he's a son and so on. And he also remembers Ornstein and that's why he made his illusion too, because it was powerful. That's what i believe it's just my oppinion.

[@Himmelslaub]

VlkCZ I don't think Dark Souls 1's Ornstein is an illusion, why would Smough smash him to absorb his power? If fact why would they need to absorb each other to gain one another's power? I think Orns & Bro are simply not aware of the illusions and are tasked to protect Gwynevere. There's nothing in game that would imply Ornsteins disrespect or even despise for Gwyn. Gwyn also didn't really do anything that might oppose the moral of his followers, he was trying to keep the Abyss from devouring his kingdom, that is why he sent 3 of his knights to stop the spread in Oolacile and why he journeyed to the kiln once more to cast himself into the flame. While your take on Gwyndolin does indeed sound interesting, it seems like a bit of a stretch as there again is nothing in the game to support this theory. I think the reason why he creates the illusions is to retain Anor Londo's former Glory, and his influence over it. Like his father he also wants to prevent the spread of the abyss, and sends out Darkmoon Blades to eliminate those who welcome the Abyss. Maybe he fears that with a darkening Anor Londo and a missing princess the moral of his servants will wither and they will lose the hope of defeating the dark. As the only remaining deity of Anor Londo, he probably felt it was his duty.

[@DaxterL]

Himmelslaub Yeah, that's true. But as i said, it's my theory and it's everyone's own world and everyone has they own story line (since it role play game). But despite that, i still believe Ornestein is an illusion, that's why upon dying they absorb power from each other. It's like Gwyndolin's backup plan if one of them dies.

[@Muzzle1300]

Interesting thing to note about the dragon slayer is when he does the hex build up to slam back down on his bottom he makes the same noise that Artorias makes when he does his dark buff, just not as loud and scary as Artorias'.

[@silverfox1329]

Ornstin will all ways be my greatest hero in my book even the Old DragonSlayer

[@adamkhan504]

You're a cool guy Silverman! I love your lore stuff and your playthroughs! Keep doing what your doing man. I love what tou do!

[@SilverMont]

Thanks! I'll do my best.

[@AlejandroCab98]

I believe the Old Dragonslayer isn't Ornstein because he is indeed dead. I think that in the future of dark souls 2 someone found Ornstein's soul (Which you mentioned had some sort of a mind of it's own) and used it on themselves to transform into the Dragonslayer but the soul was so powerful it took over him.

[@SilverMont]

***** Yeah, the most likely situation, in my opinion, is that it's Ornstein's soul, either in another body, or reincarnated.

[@AlejandroCab98]

Wow you responded! I'm a huge fan dude keep up what you're doing on Dark Souls 2(:

[@connorjones915]

***** because it's not possible for him to be cursed. It's in the darksouls 1 lore only humans could bear the sign because their soul is a fragment of the dark soul.

[@rayyanmolla8370]

"Secret boss in the dark..." do you mean darklurker?

[@SilverMont]

Yup

[@rayyanmolla8370]

Silver Mont Thanks

[@Zac99]

Anyone remember the cutscene that plays when you first kill Ornstein in DkS1? His fingers twitch if you kill him before smough when smough crushes him with his hammer, showing that he was still clinging to his life, meaning he could possibly still be alive after you or Smough kill him (which seems unlikely if it was the latter). Also note that his soul in DkS2 gives 2 thousand LESS souls than his original counterpart but still forms the same weapon when taken to the appropriate blacksmith. His souls states that "The Old Dragonslayer is reminiscent of a certain knight that appears in old legends", and reminiscent meaning memory he could very well be a shade of his former self (a "memory" so to speak) or a victim of the time (and possible space) convolution of Lodran and Drangleic.

[@ConfusedandFrustated]

The over all implication I got was that Dks1 and Dks2 took place in the same place (many kingdoms came and fell etc.). As a result, it's possible Anor Londo over time became Hiede's tower. Ornstien remains despite his apparent death in Dks1 because he is actually undead and continues to perform his duties in the cathedral, consciously or not. Ornstein always struck me as more "human" in dks1 than the other knights as well, his size mostly. Artorias, Smough, and Hawkeye are giants but him and Ciaran are about the same size as the player, until Ornstien absorbs Smough and grows hence his larger size in DKs2

[@Loominaty]

In Dark souls in the scene while fighting Smough and Ornstein. If you kill ornstein first,Smough absorbs his Power but if you give *This* moment a closer look? Smough smashes his Hammer on Ornstein but Ornstein *Is still alive*,you can see movements and stuff. So . My guess is Ornstein and Smough were best friends *löl* and after the betraying of his best friend (from descriptions you`ll know Smough was a bit of "Hungry for Kills and stuff") he lost his faith and trust in everything and got corrupted. Just a theory :D

[@jbos2721]

Dean salvation i actually really like this one, except for the corrupted part, since the soul of the old dragonslayer doesn't look corrupted

[@Loominaty]

Corruption is not always this "dark" thing. If you die inside you`ll be corrupted as well (feelings,stuff) Thanks for answer :)

[@SilverMont]

Dean salvation Hard to know, as "corrupted" people in Dark Souls DO seem to have the black/twisted souls. But I could agree with the idea that he felt betrayed and lost his faith.

[@Loominaty]

Silver Mont Maybe its more a "Inside" thing and not this Dark corruption thingy

[@kevinwu1999]

Dean salvation im guessing that in Dark Souls 1 we killed Ornstein first then Smough since he was 'moving" when he go hammered so it might claim he was alive.

[@xDantey]

I feel like the canonical ending to Ornstein and Smough's boss fight is Smough dies first, Ornstein obtains his power, but as you defeat him, Smough's power vanishes and Ornstein falls. His soul must have forged on, and having absorbed Smough's power, he was able to reproduce the "butt slam" attack, except with a dark element. You were always supposed to kill Smough first for the sake of the lore. In fact, if you kill Ornstein first then Smough, you do not get anything interesting apart from Smough's soul, if you kill Ornstein last, you gain the Leo ring and Ornstein's soul which are much more important to the game. Ornstein lives on, I'm pretty sure that's what happened, and Heide's tower of flame are the ruins of Anor Londo, those big knights you see have rusty armor and broken weapons, they could easily be reminiscent of the old Anor Londo Knights, and those Silver Knights are Heide Knights.

[@collobusthecrab4986]

0% chance of it being anor londo and those heide knights being silver knights according to ds3

[@scottbot2105]

+Silver Mont Going off of Dark souls 3 knowledge: Ornstein himself is known to hunt the nameless king and it is speculated he died there seeing how his armor is on the ground, and his spear is laid against the gate. The Old Dragonslayer could connect another theory that Ornstein was part of a group of dragon slayers and maybe this boss was sort of like an apprentices

[@paulsnow5664]

got to say love your videos hope your keeping it up :) !

[@blackyonbi]

" Reminds us of an old friend as soon as we fight him" Man , Friends dont throw thunders or impale you with spears , I hated him with all my might

[@SilverMont]

Blackyonbi Kage My friends are not very good friends

[@TrickyVic13]

Friends are there to murder you once or twice. You can all go Hollow and have a good laugh about it later.

[@user-bj4wl9pq9n]

i really hope ornstein armor would be in dark souls 2

[@SilverMont]

+ZhanYang Teoh That would've been nice!

[@RegeroTerra]

+ZhanYang Teoh Same here. I used the Dragon Remnants Covenant armor as it looked somewhat similar. What's really a shame is that there is no replacement for Smoughs hilarious fatty armor.

[@JetKerido]

Maybe in ds3 (2016 April)

[@dagonhd7937]

When you wear in ds 1 the ornstein armour and go to the abyss place in the dlc your armour looks like the one of the old dragonslyer

[@TheJorgeGuy]

Personally, I always fight ornstein alone. I would never gank a true legend.

[@b2k_scott106]

I gank him for 1 reason... he ganked me in DS1 so I want to let him know how bad it feels >:)

[@TheJorgeGuy]

B2K_ Scott Lol

[@runningcommentary2125]

Everyone's talking about how Ornstein's fingers twitch before Smough brings down his hammer, but they seem to overlook the fact that he is then immediately crushed by an enormous hammer that could probably flatten a house. Then again, he seems to have popped up again in DS3, so maybe he's just immortal.

[@SilverMont]

I think it was mostly how Smough is rude to smack a dude who might be alive!

[@sergelengerelmaa2450]

Dark souls 3 Very Old Dragon Slayer.

[@SilverMont]

Gerelmaa Sergelen Oldest Dragonslayer

[@sergelengerelmaa2450]

Silver Mont very very old dragon slayer

[@alifstrong5285]

Grandpa Dragonslayer

[@Nathrezim0]

Loved it! You said exactly what I was thinking most of the time. What I also thought possible was that OS survived that finishing blow of Smough and ventured to other lands to find Gwynevere. On his endless journey, it would seem that he saw the need to be more effective against humans. Whether he found the princess and guarded the Cathedral for her or not, I don't know.

[@LordAlaster]

Perhaps the same person that completed the resurrection spell resurrected ornstein and imbued him with darkness?

[@cesarr.s.a.r.3963]

the blue sentinels seem to worship, or at least have some connection to, Quella. From this I think Ornstein either founded the Blue Sentinels by "finding" this goddess after going hollow following the events in DS1 and challenges both potential new sentinels and threats or as Quella is the "god of dreams", The Old Dragonslayer is an illusion cast with Ornstein's soul by this god to test potential Blue Sentinels by making them face a legendary foe "corrupted" by dark. Or maybe, Gwynevere and Flann built Heide's tower of Flame (that's why there are Old Knights here) and created the Blue Sentinels and hollow Ornstein came here seeking her princess once Anor Londo sunk into darkness and was charged with protecting the cathedral.

[@SilverMont]

César R. S.A.R. I could see that, if there is any logical explanation for Old Dragonslayer, I think I like the idea of him being a "dream" or illusion created to guard / test the Blue Sentinels or some such.

[@UnstopableUrsaring]

César R. S.A.R. Sorry I'm late but I imagine that like the fire keeper at firelink who the player can bring back to life by returning their soul i imagine that they did the same to orienstein maybe the blue sentinels believe him to be their champion and found a way to revive him and the reason he uses dark magic is because of the loss of the gods he swore to protect or maybe that his soul was incomplete.

[@jonaswastaken9301]

HOW DOES ORNSTEIN GET A SPOT IN DS2 AND I DONT?! SLAP MY ARMOR TURN IT BLACK AND NAME IT OLD FAT EXECUTIONER FOR ALL I CARE JUST BRING MI BACK ;-;

[@mr_beezlebub3985]

Smoge The Dank Executioner Fat Fuck Smough for Dark Souls 3 DLC

[@jonaswastaken9301]

Mr_Beezlebub Yes please.

[@jonaswastaken9301]

Hapoubro But McLordran just released thier new McHollow burger...

[@jonaswastaken9301]

Hapoubro Thanks dude :D And can you include a large Hollow fries? Appreciate it!

[@mr_beezlebub3985]

Get him a large estus

[@MrRobot227]

FINALLY A NEW LORE VIDEO!!

[@coleman200]

i like your drawing on your vids man keep up the good work.

[@SilverMont]

Oh, I don't draw 'em. My friend does the drawings!

[@coleman200]

o well good lore vids

[@DarkVaati13]

I have a similar theory. I believe that Ornstien was a human since time is all odd in Lordran. In my theory Smough died first and Ornstien absorbs his soul and power. Then when the chosen undead killed him he reverted to his old size and turned into an Undead. His armor being damaged, he took a spare and changed it to be black like the Black Knights who followed Gwyn and died. Ornstien seeking revenge had learned Dark/Occult magic and applied that to his spear to kill the new lord of Lordran. However he wandered and eventually lost all hope and entered the realm of DS2. Then like most undead who lose faith in their cause. They turn Hollow. Ornstien despite turning Hollow remembered his job before death. Guarding Anor Londo Cathedral. So he searched for the closest thing to Anor Londo. The Blue Cathedral. The Blue Sentinal Covenant was Similar to the Darkmoon Covenant a faint memory of his so he joined. The leader doesn't say anything special because they just didn't know who he was. Just that he was a strong warrior. Insteaf of actively seeking people out like the other Covenant members he decided to stay at the Cathedral and guard the leader. Because to Ornstein this was all that remained of his Humanity. Guarding a Cathedral and working with a Covenant that kills Sinners and those against him.

[@baines803]

but then why would he be a dragon slayer? Why would he be with gwyn,who hates humans and how could he have been in the Dragon war or be with gwyn long enough to be a trusted night

[@DarkVaati13]

kira Human was the wrong word. 'Alive' maybe. In the Ornstein and Smough lore video he brings up that Ornstein, Smough, and Gwyn probably fall in a category between Human and Giant.

[@DanknessArising]

DAT BROKEN HIT BOX AT 10:30 LOL

[@MichaelJackson787]

I believe it is simply a re-incarnation of Orenstein that is used as a guardian of the blue cathedral much like he guarded the lordvessel alongside Smough.The blue sentinels(perhaps through the passing of legends) learned of this captain of the four elite soldiers of the kingdom that came before Drangeleic(assuming again Drangleic takes place right AFTER the completely"decayed" Anor Londo) so they use this powerfull figure to show that they not only protect the weak and punish the sinners,but also have a 'Knight of Legend' supporting their cause

[@UntappedRelevance]

deserves a sub... well done, i also agree with this theory

[@Orros]

Hi! So alot of people seem to miss this part. I haz a proposal. Ornstein was Gwyn's Firstborn's First appointed Knight right? And in Dark Souls 3, it is clear that Ornstein was searching for the Nameless King, Gwyn's Firstborn, and ended up im archdragon peak? We all know these by now. What if Ornstein ended up in Heide's Tower of Flame because he was searching for his former brother in arms? What if the Dragonriders in Heide's Tower of Flame led Ornstein to get there and in his journey somehow got afflicted with Dark magic?

[@WhenLifeGivesURazors]

I think it actually is Ornstein based on the fact that hes using dark at all. In DkS he uses lightning, a faith element. Think about it. What does one become over the years if not "Old"? Smarter. And we all know faith plus intelligence equals dark. Just my thoughts

[@TheOverlordJay2]

That's an amazing theory

[@Iflexis]

Good point

[@SilverMont]

That's a good point. Although I think "Old" in this situations means... now, I'm not sure how to put this, but old as in "Ancient" - from another time, not old as in, he's got a big beard and his back hurts. At least, that's how I always thought of it. Ornstein is 'old' in that he comes from a time/era long before Dark Souls II.

[@valentinocontino3155]

In DS ornstein uses lightning because Dragons are vulnerable to it,but the old dragonslayer doesn't need it because he stopped fighting Dragons I'm sorry for my english, I hope you understand what I said

[@SanguinaryOtter]

I think that Ornstein's Soul found a new Keeper, who used Ornsteins Soul to Craft the Spear (Ornifex and Straid are very old . . . they didn't just work for one person and there were smiths before them) and learned the Art of Dark but when he found out about the Cathedral he allied with Targray and guarded the Place which reminded him so much of his former home when he was "someone else". Just as the chosen Undead is a rebirth! These Souls are being given from one to another and sometimes change or split up with their Holders Soul (like the 4 Bosses with 2 Souls, they incarnated one Soul and somehow also got the other one when the new cycle began)

[@rickzronek4708]

Alot of time has passed since the chosen undead rekindled the fire.... things left to shadow, things forgotten. Under the decay of time perhaps Ornstein too forgot who he was and traversed the world as a husk, lost entity. Perhaps being attracted to hiedes tower resembling anor londo so much, and found comfort in the cathedral , for that's what he died defending

[@stuartroom3171]

ornstein in ds 1 is an Illusion. his soul states that this soul is from gwyn. Its not ornstein himself. while in ds 2 Its the old dragonslayer soul. so it has a good chance to be the actual ornstein.

[@SilverMont]

It says that Gwyn granted Ornstein his soul, not that Ornstein's soul is not his own. Gwyn was in the habit of handing out parts of his own soul/power to others - such as Seath and the Four Kings.

[@glaticstorm32]

If I am honist, I think he is just an easter egg put there by the developers. Think... He is a non-mandatory boss, meaning you don't have to fight him. Secondly he is in a back part of a map where lots of people would pass by him without really knowing. Thirdly he has no meaning or effect to the story, example in ds he was defending gwynevere basically the lord vessel, meanwhile in ds2 he defends nothing, his armour can't even be obtained which shows how little he matters. I loved ornstein and smough but I personally doubt that its him, since there is only one or two references to ornstein within ds2 and he isnt even named. From a lore point of view you can have your own ideas but in reality he really is just a nice little easter egg for ds fans to find.

[@acjackson127]

I think it's correct to assume that ornstein had others knight and dragonslayers under him. So maybe this old dragonslayer was one of ornstein a men and he has traveled to Drangleic to get away from the depressingly fallen Lordran. He came to Drangleic seeing it has had a similar fate and decides that the rest of the world could be like this and decides to stay. Why in the Blue Cathedral? Most likely because it is the most reminiscent of Anor Londo.by the time you meet him he has lost all purpose and most likely is Hollow. That's how I see it though. It's the only way I could see their armors being so similar.

[@johnskyjohn45]

I personally think that creatures with a powerful soul like Ornstein go hollow a lot slower (plus if he's protecting the cathedral he's got a will to carry on) so there's more than enough of a chance that Ornstein was brought back by the undead curse in ds1 and has veeeery slowly hollowed to his form in ds2. Keeping his mind from ailing by killing undead helped the process slow further and so he needed to adapt to a more efficient way of killing the said undead (using dark rather than lightening). I think seeing as his armour is probably not gold initially due to golds soft nature, it's perfectly possible that the armour has gone through some form of change like oxidizing.

[@Mrtotot]

The lighting in Anor Londo is what gave Orensteins armor its gold appearance. After you defeat his super form and buy his set in Dark Souls, you will see that it is not gold,

[@SilverMont]

Hmm... but the player set isn't actually the same as Ornstein's - the shoulder armour is different, and there's no plume, etc. Still, that's a good point. I know some people have messed around with the game and are able to spawn bosses in different places - it'd be good if someone could spawn Ornstein in like, the Undead Parish so we could see if he looks different there, lighting-wise.

[@Mrtotot]

That would be a good idea :) but what i find interesting is both smough and orenstein appear to be golden in the cathedral, yet smoughs player set is still more on the goldish side while orensteins isnt. But then, its like you said. Orensteins player set is a bit different. Great vids BTW!

[@PanzerIVAE]

I think the plume is his hair ponytailed

[@SilverMont]

Robel Aerunn Allado Impossible to know. 25.media.tumblr.com/2bcdd5cf122b4611d8a7fc1b38ffa72b/tumblr_mlrtvsmhNA1s3nvoko1_1280.png That concept art seems to suggest it is a plume, though. And usually a helmet wouldn't have a hole for you to put your hair through, haha.

[@profeseurchemical]

speaking of, why can't I buy the old dragon slayer armour god damn it! I want it so baaaaaadd!!!

[@givmtheboot1]

Another reason it is most likely the real Ornstein is his color. He's a lot darker than DS1 Ornstein. It's true that gold doesn't rust, but it does tarnish, which turns it darker (possibly even to black). This just reenforces how old the Old Dragonslayer really is.

[@SilverMont]

Yeah, it's like with the Old Knights. Their armour is all... mossy? Rusty? Either way, it's decrepit. Although for some reason, Havel's armour, that is made out of stone, is now all burnished and shiny.

[@givmtheboot1]

Silver Mont The power of fan service made it clean. Haha. I'd like to suggest that Smough was real and the Ornstein was an illusion. This is why Ornstein is in DS 2. Perhaps Smough smashed the Ornstein illusion as a matter of pride, "I don't need any help defending the throne," while the real one escorted Gwynevere. It doesn't make much sense to guard an illusory princess with the real version of the elite knight.

[@firestar5299]

***** i don't think that ornstein in dark souls was an illusion because you get his soul if you kill him (after killing smough of course) and if you kill ornstein first then smough strengthens himself with ornstein's soul (at least that is what looks like what happens), but why they were guarding an illusion could just be that they were tricked or they were trying to stop us from getting the lord vessel, but maybe ornstein had a crew like havel did there might have been other dragon slayers all in a group formed by ornstein but him being superior got golden armor while the rest of them got a kind of light ebony version of it and after ornstein was killed the rest of the group could have hollowed after losing their leader and not knowing what to do, or they could have disbanded the group and went to different places to protect in other lands one of them eventually finding the blue cathedral and making a deal with targray to protect him, and in return targray could have tought the dragonslayer how to use dark magic, but seeing how this is Dark Souls all of this is just speculation

[@givmtheboot1]

firestar5299 I respect your opinion on the matter and actually really like the idea that Ornstein would have had his own brigade of soldiers that dressed like him. I can see it being that way, especially with the way Havel went. I think it's perfectly valid and may actually replace my own. However, I have to say that his special soul doesn't necessarily mean it's him. It could have been a counterfeit soul. I'm especially suspicious, since Ornstein grows after Smough's death- a feat never seen outside of that fight in DS. Not even Smough grows after absorbing Ornstein- leading me to believe Smough is real and Ornstein is the fake. In addition, we see Ornstein is weak to fire, just like the illusory sentinels in Anor Londo. Then again, this is all speculative. It also strikes me odd that Ornstein would work with Smough, though, perhaps it's out of pity. I want to suggest that the Old Dragonslayer is Ornstein after the events of DS. He may have been afflicted with the curse of the undead at one point and, without knowing what to do with everyone dead, has decided to protect the cathedral to avoid hollowing- going back to his old purpose. Please feel free to keep discussing this. It's really interesting.

[@dubbeking]

His armor is not gold. Gold is a much too soft metal to be used as armor. It is brass, and brass looks like that when it grows old.

[@InfiniteWar404]

I would like to raise the option of the Old Dragonslayer being Ornstein in a hollowed form. It could explain his new usage of Dark magic as opposed to Lightning in the way that it became corrupted, possibly from him going mad from hollowing. It would also give reason for him having the move set he only gains after Smough dies, which realistically would be who would die first in a fight like the one the player and duo had, and not his pre-Smough death move set; the latter of which would be what he would have if you had killed some sort of illusion as opposed to the real one.

[@ShamusOFox]

I think an important detail that alludes to the Old Dragonslayer being Orenstein is in his spear's item description. Specifically the part that says his spear "Shattered the stone scales of dragons." This seems to indicate that the Old Dragonslayer fought ancient dragons, which are the only dragons we know of with stone scales, and this would place him as living and fighting before the Age of Fire. While he could still be one of Gwyns knights dressed up as Orenstein, very few of his knights received special souls that could be forged into weapons, though it's true some characters in Dark Souls have developed their own powerful souls over time. As far as his use of Dark, I wonder if that has anything to do with Orenstein's absence from the Artorias DLC from the first game.

[@Vattsu]

I noticed that when he charges his butt slam he does the same noise as Artorias when he is buffing himself. Could it mean something?

[@SilverMont]

Does he? I didn't catch that. It cooooould just be a recycled sound effect (as From loves doing that) but... hard to say for sure.

[@FryingBerries]

Likely means as much as the knights in iron keep making the same sound as the black/silver knights in DS1 when they die. aka reuse of the sound files.

[@Vattsu]

Jester Muffin Lazy from software?

[@FryingBerries]

Pretty much yes.

[@Darth_Bateman]

He didn't need to fall into the Abyss. The Nature of dark has changed, its become more constant in Dark Souls. How many lords have built a kingdom and watched it crumble? How many of them decided to not burn themselves and become Dark Lords instead? Like King Vendrick? The annals of history may have been lost, but people still Chronicled the tales and exploits of old wars and warriors. Ornsteins ways have simply been passed down, it makes sense. After all, Drangleic was a kingdom of dragon-riding warriors. It would make sense that your enemies would try to tame dragons too. For this, Dragonslayers can be employed. Who better to slay a Dragon Rider and a Dragon than a Dragon Slayer?

[@yusukeelric]

+Red Phones But Dragonslayers killed dragons. Taming them was Dragonrider job (wich strangely is in on of the towers in the same area). Remember Anor londo. It's full of dragon heads for a reason. Drangleic was renown for Dragon Riding, not poaching. Also none of Drangleic beings are dragons. But that's possibly a mistranslation. Orsntein didn't tame dragons, he killed them.

[@Darth_Bateman]

Somecooltoad You can't JUST tame dragons though, you also have to capture them. Now, to capture them you need a sect of knights who are effective in fighting them. The Old Dragonslayer is likely the man who lead the group who captured the dragons for the dragon riders.

[@yusukeelric]

That's actually a pretty good explanation

[@123456789ryun]

The old dragons later has the same basis move set, thunder sound fx, and the ground slam still has a lightening effect, though it is dark. My opinion is that it is ornstein, though hollowed, a darker form of hhis former self

[@dygardkuroyuri2624]

I know that alot of people may or will disagree with me, but in my opinion, Ornstein, and the Old Dragonslayer are one and the same, only seen at a different angle. I've heard some piece of info which I can't really piece together, but I think it went out like this: Lordran and Drangleic are at opposite poles of each other. We can't know whether if this may or may not be true, but since Solaire says that time is convoluted, doesn't that mean that time affects the reality and people just see from different standpoints? It's like a person sees Ornstein but another person in another view of time and reality sees the Old Dragonslayer. Also since time is convoluted and heroes centuries old pass by and come by, this can not only apply to the characters in Dark Souls 1 & 2, but this could also apply to the places. This means that if you're in the Blue Cathedral, in another convoluted reality, another person is standing on the exact place where you are but they're in the Anor Londo. In my perspective the games have not only shown us deceit by words and actions but by appearance as well, for example, both games have a painting guardians, yet loosely related, there's Ornstein in both games yet seen from another perspective in both games, and many others...... It's just a theory.

[@Dannyboyyay]

From your and Vaati's theories, I've concluded for myself that the Old Dragonslayer is NOT Ornstein. In Vaati's video, he speculate's Heide's Tower of Flame to be a Tower dedicated to Flann, the God of flame and Gwynevere's husband. Assuming DS1 Ornstein was an Illusion, the real Ornstein would have followed Gwynevere and protected her. The architecture of the Tower is reminiscent of Anor Londo but not quite the same., probably due to the folks of AL building it up at the start. I assume Ornstein built up his new Knight Order there to protect everyone, one of these knights would be the Old Dragonslayer (OD). Maybe OD saw in Ornstein some kind of rival and wanted to defeat him, hence the dark magic that was effective against him, and as he overcame his master he took his place someday.

[@davidforslund00]

Danny it could have worked if ds3 never happend

[@kafkabigmon]

Maybe orstien just got depressed about smough's crippling addiction to bone marrow and decided to listen to heavy metal music, dye everything black, and become dark and emo. #emoorstien

[@cailumgrantham-tibbitt8543]

Best theory

[@fosilhun8993]

10/10 theory

[@RashFever26]

Kvltstein

[@MrTheDratex]

One thing I do notice is that the old dragonslayer uses the 'butt-slam' that smough was known for and which ornstein also uses if you take out the executioner first. Maybe he 'survived' in a way when he absorbed smough soul? that they merged. now this is just wild speculations on my part.

[@mauriciopartnoy2789]

Perhaps he is the sole survivor of the old gods. The lore in DS1 suggests the gods flew Anor Londo when the flames started to fade. The tower of flame could be a monument dedicated to flame god Flann, with whom Gwynivere had a relationship. So we have an area with a monument dedicated to each part of the couple, the church for Gwynivere, the tower for Flann. In this picture Ornstein would be an old knight, clinging to his everlasting duty of protecting the remnants of her godess monument.

[@TheHaHaNinja]

I have a question for all of you. Would you like or dislike it if Ornstein or The old dragonslayer returns for Dark souls 3? And would he be called The older dragonslayer?

[@SilverMont]

+TheHaHaNinja "Oldest Dragonslayer"

[@TheShadowAmateratsu]

+enrique lanza ancient dragonslayer?

[@TheHaHaNinja]

Silver Mont Forgotten Dragonslayer?

[@TheShadowAmateratsu]

+TheHaHaNinja lost dragonslayer?

[@avd7288]

Yet another Dragonslayer

[@penialdelicatesance]

0:34 fuck happened there?

[@SilverMont]

Hm?

[@j1mbleZ]

hahahaha

[@TheLivingBacon]

Im Kenneth "Vidyaaah" ? xD

[@dubbeking]

OMG I PISSED MYSELF WHEN I NOTICED THAT XD XD XD

[@MaestroKong]

I believe in the cycle theory for the soul series. The time is unstable as stated and so in DS2, we see Ornstein failing to find the nameless king and basically settling in Drangleic. And in DS3 I think he got killed by hollowed Nameless King by electrocuted stab throw which explains the placements of his armor and weapon.

[@mikebacon3530]

My theory stands that Heide's tower of flame is almost like a monument to Lord Gwyn not as himself but as a dragon-slayer. The flame being a resemblance to the first flame that Gwyn tried to link, the statue's dotted about the place and inside the cathedral are certainly reminiscent of Gwyn. I'm not saying these statues ARE of Gwyn but it's possible that due to the fact DS1 happened so long ago no one knows what he actually looked like and so the statues where only their speculation of Gwyn. The place is also guarded by the giants who are very similar to the giants in Anor Londo and a dragon rider. Also there is a certain Npc atop of the tower asking you to offer your souls to the Gods (I know this isn't anything major but it's something to think about as to why she is there). His armour is something that I have also thought about, we know that most of Gwyn's knights where killed or had their armor charred when he tried to link the first flame we also know Ornstein was one of Gwyn's most loyal knights, could it be possible that as a last act of loyalty he changed his armour to black as one last act of loyalty to Gwyn...The last standing knight of the dragon-slayer army. Feel free to pick apart any of this and question it as you will but this is my opinion as to why I think it's him, souls have been re-incarnated in this game and on some level I think the player might be a reincarnation of the chosen undead from Ds1 but that's another story for another time.

[@DarthVaizard]

I wish we could have gotten some armor in late game to clear things up..

[@SilverMont]

DarthVaizard Me too, man

[@smoke600k]

Silver Mont maybe in schoolar of the first sin??? from said they will add new itens and npcs

[@SilverMont]

smoke600 That'd be nice!

[@Crabungle]

Silver Mont you got to play the new version at an event, right? I really hope that there is more on Ornstein in scholar of the first sin..

[@biohazard724]

I can't get behind the theory that his appearance is just fan service for the simple fact that there are far more popular bosses that could have appeared if that were the case. Giant Dad, Artorias, Sif (yes I'm aware of the reskin shenanigans)

[@Turt1eXing]

I think it is worth mentioning that old dragonslayer has one of Smough's attacks. when you kill smough first Ornstein kills him and takes his soul, then he will do a ground pound attack that shoots lightning everywhere. old dragonslayer does the same attack but with dark (You can see it in the video). I think it is possible that because Ornstein and Smough were two parts of the same soul; they were able to fuse their souls together when one of them died, gaining the powers of the other. The old dragonslayer we find is small but has this attack so it is very possible that he used part of Smough's soul to survive all that time.

[@Heisenron]

The way I see it is that very powerful souls have a way of persisting through the eras. The Lord Souls, for example, are present in Dark Souls 2: Old Dead One Soul, The Witch Soul, The Old King Soul, and The Paledrake Soul. These types of souls, usually given to a being by Gwyn, seem to be powerful enough to last through the linking or dying out of the first flame and the change of eras. Now with Ornstein, it is said in Dark Souls 1 that he left Anor Londo and the Cathedral. This seems to mean that we fight Smough but an illusion of Ornstein. I wouldn't just throw that notion out, either. We see that the illusions in Anor Londo are so strong that they can fight, kill, and act on their own accord. Gwyndolin's magic here is very strong. So, why would Ornstein be in the Cathedral of Blue? I like how you note that he may have stationed himself there to protect the Way of Blue since it reminded him of his Darkmoon brethren. It also makes sense that he would switch up his style to protect his charges from THEIR enemies. The enemies of the Way of Blue aren't dragons but instead powerful humans wielding the powers of gods. Using Dark magic makes sense if you want to be efficient at protecting the Way of Blue. That would also make sense as to why his soul wasn't corrupted. But what if we did fight the true Ornstein in Anor Londo? That would also make sense. Ornstein's soul was given to him from Gwyn. Which means it's part of the soul of light that he inherited. Back in Dark Souls 1 we also took the four Lord Souls but they found their way back into the world. This all sums up to me that Ornstein's souls is powerful enough to reconstitute itself over time. The being, Ornstein himself, is also reconstituted because he has something tethering himself to the world. He's searching for The Nameless King, his mentor and friend. He won't give up the search and therefore when his soul is brought back into the world, the being attached to it also comes back. He resumes his search endlessly. Perhaps he stopped at the Cathedral of Blue thinking it reminded him of Anor Londo. He met and joined with the Way of Blue as a way to rest or perhaps, in that era, he couldn't find The Nameless King. He eventually does, as we see atop Archdragon Peak in Dark Souls 3 but even then, we do not know what happens to Ornstein. His armor is found but there is no body. He's definitely one of the more reoccuring, popular, and mysterious characters in the series.

[@SilverMont]

Do you mean DaS3? For him leaving Anor Londo.

[@Heisenron]

Yes, I just checked out the DS3 armor descriptions and you're right. That's not mentioned in DS1. Perhaps then, that was the true Ornstein in Anor Londo and not an illusion.

[@SilverMont]

The Husky Hare People speculated even back when DaS1 came out that they were illusions (like glamoured versions of those two Darkmoon Knights we fight in Dark AL) But the news that Ornstein left AL that we learned in DaS3 both helped and contradicted some facts. DaS3 did quite a lot of that, haha.

[@ratnakarsingh6757]

Dark Souls Takes Place In The Age Of Fire At The Time Ornstien is The dragon slayer Dark Souls 2 Takes Place After It So Ornstien Is old and Now referred as old dragon slayer but the question is we kill the dragon slayer in dark souls 1

[@luiscallirgos5127]

+Draganan ONe silly but solid argument about the "killing" the real Ornstein and not an illussion is that in DS universerse the Illusions we encounter never dropped the actual Souls of the subject(like in DS1 we get ornstein souls)

[@LordShaxx0218]

+Luis Callirgos but at the same time in dark souls 3 it even says that ornstein left the cathedral and that smough was the last knight to gaurd the cathedral

[@luiscallirgos5127]

monkeyboy11100 Perhaps because ornstein left to reunite with the Nameless king, a.k Gwyn´s firstborn.

[@LordShaxx0218]

+Luis Callirgos exactly that would make the ornstein that we fight in anor londo and illusion

[@defectpawn7194]

If you notice when you fell Ornstein first, Smough crushes him with his hammer, but seconds before doing so, Ornstein's fingers are still moving. I believe that Smough took from Ornstein his "power of the gods" and left a still alive and weaker version of Ornstein, now revealed to have had power in the area of dark. Ashamed at this, Ornstein effectively "played dead" and gave his power, but not his own soul, to smough. Ornstein may have been skilled with darkness, and Gwyn felt pity. Gwyn granted his own power to Ornstein. If you also notice, none of the other knights of Gwyn use lighting, and Ornstein was made the leader to avert any questions as to his unwavering loyalty. So, Ornstein was given the role as captain of the four nights of Gwyn, and later Artorias needed to enter the Abyss. Ciaran was not informed until much later of this, and Goe could not follow Artorias further, but Ornstein was well and capable of moving with Artorias, having kept his own soul pure while, indeed, being dark-touched. This is how Artorias even knew to look to form a covenant. Artorias was informed by Ornstein, and Ornstein was a pure form, a lightning and dark empowered individual born from the shards of Manus, just like with the Ivory king's guardian. Less corrupt, of coarse. Ornstein, having been beaten and having given his god-powers or smough, fled. He eventually returned in Drangleic to guard the blue palace, where even his armor showed the draining of his old powers

[@JD-jl4yy]

Defect Pawn this makes absolutely no sense.

[@Epicmonk117]

I have a theory that the Old Dragonslayer was the result of an attempt to either resurrect Ornstien or create a replica/body double/construct imitation

[@TheOneTrueD]

Alex, I'm curious - who draws all your beautiful artwork on the thumbnails of your videos? If it's you, I just wanna say I really admire the artwork and talent. Especially with the Old Dragonslayer.

[@SilverMont]

That would be my friend +natuprunk who does em, I link to her redbubble n most vids