Denethor's Origins | Down the Hobbit Hole - Episode 1

[@TJDious]

Denethor saw in Boromir a version of himself that could have won him equal esteem to Thorongil. In Faramir he sees everything in himself that caused others to place him second to the stranger. If only he could have understood that the competition was only in his mind.

[@GirlNextGondor]

I think he placed so much of his worth in his office as "Steward of Gondor" that he lost touch with the possibility that he had anything to offer personally - for example, as a father to his sons. I'm not a fan of him trying to immolate Faramir, but I do really feel for the guy.

[@TJDious]

I wish we knew more about Ecthelion's own parenting style. If he was like movie Denethor, his son's issues would make a lot of sense.

[@n8spL8]

I can only see Dave Mustaine when i see the moive Farimir. Weirds me out.

[@siriondil4739]

Woo, there can never be enough Denethor discussion to repair the movies’ criminal slander of him. Always love to hear about him.

[@TheInkblot101]

Personally I react so strongly to movie Denethor because that tomato is absolutely unforgivable.

[@KevDaly]

I greatly prefer Tolkien's tragically flawed Denethor to PJ's contemptible one.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Being able to sympathize with him is crucial to understanding the impact of his decline imo.

[@TheMarcHicks]

100% agree. Book Denethor was highly competent & shrewd, despite his flaws, yet slowly driven to madness & despair. Movie Denethor was more like a moustache twirling cartoon villian almost from his first on-screen appearance.

[@SuicideJones33]

In fairness, the movies don't have the benefit of Appendices etc to flesh out the life of Denethor@@TheMarcHicks

[@benjaminlammertz64]

Interesting. I had always had the impression that the final vision that Denethor saw in the palantir and that finally sent him over the edge to insanity was not the ships of Umbar sailing up the anduin (wether he viewed them as a sign that the southern fiefdoms had fallen or if he saw Aragorn coming to take the rule over Gondor away from him)... But instead Frodo, as a prisoner in the tower of Cirith Ungol. Naked. Without the Ring. That would absolutely justify him going completely insane and it would also explain him taunting Gandalf that no matter if the white rider manages to win this battle, the war is definitively lost. Neither Gandalf nor anyone else in the fellowship (except of course Frodo and Sam) knew about Frodo being a prisoner at that point. Denethor's utter despair also finds it's mirror in the fellowship seeing Frodo's mithril shirt and learning about his capture (but not knowing that he had since escaped) at the black gates. They do *not* despair, like Denethor did. Also, the idea that Sauron showed the captured Frodo to Denethor to drive him insane with despair adds one final moment of awesome for Denethor of all people: Sauron only knew that Frodo was some sort of spy, sent by his enemies. He showed him to Denethor to tell the steward: "See, your little spy has failed his mission!" But Sauron didn't know what Frodo's mission *was*. At this point, Sauron was assuming that Pippin had possessed the ring when Saruman's Uruk-Hai captured him, that Aragorn took it from Pippin after Saruman's defeat and that this was the reason Aragorn felt bold enough to openly challenge him using the palantir. (which was of course exactly what Aragorn intended with his challenge) But Denethor knew what Frodo's mission was. Faramir had told him. That's why that image did far more damage to Denethors psyche than Sauron could ever have hoped for. BUT: Even in this moment of absolute Despair, Denethor did *not* let Sauron figure out what he knew about Frodo and the ring. His inner voice was SCREAMING at him "They have the ring! Everything is over!" and yet, he managed to guard his mind enough that Sauron did not read those thoughts. In his greatest defeat, Denethor scored one last win against Sauron, saving all of middle-earth in the process.

[@johnt.inscrutable1545]

I think it’s great that you bring in the idea that authors may forget that their readers are not aware of the unpublished thoughts the author has had about their characters, especially characters like Denethor. Thanks for an enjoyable video/podcast! JTI

[@GirlNextGondor]

Glad you enjoyed it (and please allow me to compliment you on your username)! I've definitely experienced the phenomenon myself: "Oh, that's right... no one knows about character A's tragic childhood because I cut that paragraph; none of this makes sense anymore...." 😅 With as many characters and plots as Tolkien was juggling, I start to wonder what else he assumed we were picking up on, that in reality we weren't.

[@johnt.inscrutable1545]

@@GirlNextGondor Thank you. You are the first to comment on the username. I would love to have been able to have tea with Tolkien on a regular basis. To talk with him directly about his world might provide some interesting insights. And, indeed, it might reveal more assumptions caused by the many edits, re-writes, and actual re-working of his own ideas about the legendarium. How he kept up with it as well as he did is a miracle. When I find what I think might be a plot hole I try to imagine the possible history that lead up to that point in the story. Many times things we don’t understand can be explained by this type of event, ie, having edited out something and added something later while thinking about what was taken out and forgetting it isn’t there anymore. This doesn’t explain Tom Bombadil. I love Tom, but he remains an enigma. Though I have thought perhaps when the story was still in its more “The Hobbit” mode he may have written this bit, we know T.B. Came before even “The Hobbit”, but then having written it he found he liked it too much to remove and so left it. Then later explained that there must be some mystery left in any world. Then again maybe not. Lol. I enjoy you approach to your presentation and the amount of research you put into your work. Thank you. JTI PS Don’t scrute my comment. It can’t be done.

[@TJDious]

The apex of thoughtful Tolkien insight and presentation is GNG.

[@michaelsmyth3935]

The answer to many of these questions involves the Will of Sauron. Bastard turned Ar-Pharazon, Saruman who turned Grima, corrupted the nine, spread Melkorism throughout the Southeast.... Denethor saw what Sauron wanted him to see. He lacked the wisdom of his Father.

[@Jagrofes]

You’ve quickly become my favourite Tolkien KZbinr. I really like your depth and examination of the implications of the lore, not just reading it at a relatively surface level like what most KZbinrs seem to do. I end up with a greater appreciation and understanding after I watch each of your videos.

[@shanenolan8252]

Yes shes awesome agreed

[@jpbjoel]

It’s great seeing more and more people discover the quality of your videos! The secret’s out: When you want Tolkien vids made with quality, then you should look no further than G-N-G!

[@GirlNextGondor]

GNG-brand analysis: you've tried the rest, now try the best! 🤣🤣 Thank you, my friend!

[@georgipopov8973]

Personay I think that if what tipped Denethor over the edge was seeing who actually commands the black ships then that would make him worse/more of a jerk than if he just gave in to despair. It would mean that his desire to keep the rule of Gondor for himself and not let Aragorn be king is greater than his desire to see Gondor come through this in the first place. Help is help and if losing the "throne" would also mean preserving the city than any sane man would gladly take such a deal. Great content as always!

[@AnimeSunglasses]

"...and that means TANGENTS" Those words confirm, with confidence, my feeling that you are very much my kind of person!

[@colindunnigan8621]

Faramir saw the potential for conflict between his brother and Aragorn as well, if I recall.

[@GirlNextGondor]

He did! - and he's no fool; in those rejected drafts there's a version where Boromir survives but actively opposes Aragorn taking power.

[@colindunnigan8621]

@@GirlNextGondor I did not know that. Interesting.

[@johronok4067]

The parallel you pointed out with Denethor's rivalry with Aragorn and the way Denthor is with Boromir and Faramir made a lot of sense.

[@brendanmooney7607]

The whole Denethor/Aragorn/Gandalf/Boromir/Faramir embroilment is just a smart & ruthless noblewoman-character away from The Lion in Winter: Gondor Edition!

[@GirlNextGondor]

It has the potential to generate telenovela-levels of angst and drama.

[@muenchhausenmusic]

@@GirlNextGondor 😂😂😂

[@crazyscotsman9327]

I never thought of him seeing Aragorn recognizes him for Tharangel and goes oh fuck. He’s got the Sword that was broken, he’s got a banner proclaiming his lineage. He’s going to be the one to break the siege or die trying. The people will go running to him and proclaim him as king no matter what I try I’m either dead or deposed.

[@sayagarapan1686]

Okay, first of all wow, you should be doing this for money. This was so complete and satisfying I have little to say except that, yes, I've been on the fence about how much pity and understanding to extend Denethor, and you've helped paste in the right information and insight to help me become more generous towards him. Admittedly I was 13 or 14 when I read the series and have only had glimpses plus full audio books since then, making it difficult to glean such a rich depth of insight as you have done and this is exactly why yours is my go to channel for intelligent analysis of Tolkien's Middle-Earth.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you Saya! 😊 I wonder if age has anything to do with it, because I really didn't like Denethor when I was younger, and I sympathized with him a lot more, even just from his published RotK appearance, as an adult. He's still an antagonist, but one we're supposed to feel *some* sympathy or respect for.

[@TolkienLorePodcast]

Thanks for the shoutout! I don’t recall if I cited Olsen for that idea but I’m pretty sure the idea is clearly stated by Christopher in multiple volumes.

[@GirlNextGondor]

He's a fascinating character; again, not a *nice* man but one I think it's possible to understand. Re: Silmarillion cross-pollination: what really gets me is: they let a guy named Denethor and a woman named Finduilas get married -- and they *didn't* expect vestigial Doom to visit tragic death on the whole family? 🤣 Read the room, Men of Gondor....

[@ethanmiller2042]

I stumbled across your channel recently and am quickly getting through the backlog. I just wanted to express my gratitude to your thoughtful and insightful approach. Please keep it up 😍

[@captainidiot4301]

I love you and your channel. Your research is good. Respect. You're really cool

[@joseraulcapablanca8564]

This was great stuff, as ever. I feel somewhat that Denethor is constrained into his relationships and choices, because of the needs of the story, he despairs because his despair must contrast with the hope found in Sam and Frodo, he is overly harsh in his admonishment, and sparing with showing his love because he must contrast with Gandalf with whom he shares so many traits. Gandalf is sharp in his admonishment of the young hobbits, but tender in showing that it passes and is only the sign of a man with too many cares. The shape of the story as you so rightly point out also constrains him. Two brilliant men Gandalf and Aragorn, haunt him by being so much better than him in his own eyes. In reality he is a wonderful man and they are just somewhat better. Thanks GNG and keep up the good work.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you! One of the reasons I've spent a lot of time on this character is how *frustrated* I am that we never get to see him team up with Aragorn. Imagine Denethor faced with an actual *challenge*, but a challenge from someone genuinely noble and compassionate. They'd have such Anime Rival Energy!

[@guille3622]

I think your Denethor's insights are a gem that let me understand, discover and value things of the character I've never seein before or paid attention to, tho it increasingly frustrates me how wise and insightful he was yet not to make friends with the only people who were so much like him in a world of "lesser men"

[@GirlNextGondor]

It's such a classic 'Tolkien' move: he's really the architect of his own downfall, despite all his good traits, because his pride prevents him from accepting help or compassion from others.

[@EriktheRed2023]

That Thorongil-Denethor and Boromir-Faramir insight is so good! It sheds so much light on Denethor's character - it's like when someone points out to you that Macbeth and Lady Macbeth are childless. It makes a lot of sense that Denethor could cope with almost any attack on Gondor and his family from the outside. But an attack from within wounds him far more deeply, and sends him reeling. He was brought up to be ruling steward, and he was taught all he needed to know about how to rule a nation and win a war. But he failed to save his wife, and also feels he failed his sons, as indeed he likely feels they failed him and Gondor. But he cannot iron will his wife to enjoy Minas Tirith, or use his amazing insight to change the hearts and minds of his sons. And now Aragorn is coming to take even that away from him that he sacrificed everything else to save.

[@jarrodcarver9001]

Listening now!

[@cameronjacob-sauer1660]

Your vids are great!

[@caos1925]

this gave me an idea of a what if; Aragon had taken the throne earlier, seems he could have?

[@GirlNextGondor]

It certainly seems that way. The two reasons I could find referenced, if only glancingly, in the text, are 1) to claim the throne he'd have to reveal himself openly as Isildur's heir, which would not go unnoticed by Sauron and so needs to be done at the exact right moment , and 2) Gondor already has a nasty history of civil war, and the claim of Aragorn's line has already been rejected once. Aragorn mentions this to Eomer after the Battle of the Pelennor - he doesn't go into the city right away because he doesn't want to start a huge debate about the throne when Sauron is still posing an existential threat. When he goes to heal Faramir, Eowyn, and Merry he practically has to sneak into the city to avoid controversy. The question of how exactly Aragorn has been planning to claim his throne for the past *60-odd years* before the Ring is found would actually make for an excellent topic....

[@TheMarcHicks]

Given how long Denethor had been using the Arnor Stone, isn't there a possibility that he became aware of Aragorn when he used the Orthanc Stone? At least that was always my assumption.

[@TheMarcHicks]

....and then you allude to it in the very next sentence 😉. Even from my first reading, I always assumed that, even if Denethor didn't know Aragorn was the captain of the fleet, his use of the Palantir would have made him aware of Aragorn's existence. It also wouldn't have taken Denethor too long to work out that Aragorn was Thorongil either.

[@estherandreasen366]

Ooh, this is cool! I guess I have a new book to study!

[@GirlNextGondor]

I haven't delved nearly as deeply into those middle volumes of HoMe as the early and late ones, but every time I go through them I learn more. It's so cool that all this material was published!

[@SNWWRNNG]

It might be that Denethor's rapid descent into madness after looking into the Palantir, even though there was little hope in the war and he had accepted that already, was caused by Denethor's facade finally breaking and thus makes sense. As you said, he is very good at concealing his feelings and desires if he wants to - and with how his entire character seems to be focused on his Stewardship, how his personal fight against Gondor's enemy is the only thing that matters (explicitly contrasted against Gandalf being the steward of Middle-earth in their conversation), it would make sense that he was determined to keep doing his job despite it likely being futile. As Denethor says, he wishes things would have stayed as peaceful as they had been - and so he's, outwardly at least, in denial and rules as if Gondor had a future for at least many decades to come despite him thinking Gondor's destruction likely. If this is the case, Denethor would have been under a lot of mental stress as he forces himself to keep doing his duty, despite there being little hope for it having any long-term purpose. After the mental exhaustion of striving with Sauron through the Palantir (which left visible marks even on Aragorn), and Sauron making the defeat seem inevitable, any delusion of hope and ability to remain outwardly collected as if in denial was gone for Denethor.

[@christophersheffield9574]

Wonderful info

[@SuperCory1973]

Informative, thoughtful and interesting - as always! Really enjoy your deeply thoughtful explorations of the legendarium.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Really appreciate hearing that 💖 glad you've been enjoying them!

[@EriktheRed2023]

Maybe what Denethor is foreseeing is not Gondor's outright end. He is seeing Gondor suffer the same as the North Kingdom, and the remnants of his people ending up wandering the wilds under Aragorn's leadership. There is (I think) a mention that even with Minas Tirith taken, that will not be the actual end of Gondor's people. Is it Beregond talking with Pippin? Edit: Found it, in the chapter 'Minas Tirith', Beregond says to Pippin: "[...] Gondor shall not perish yet. [...]. There are still other fastnesses, and secret ways of escape into the mountains. Hope and memory shall live still in some hidden valley where the grass is green."

[@keyboarddancers7751]

We must be thankful that despite Denethor's late knowledge of the Ring's movement towards Mordor, he did not somehow disclose what he knew to Sauron via the Palantír. Frodo's desperate task would thus prove futile and Night would fall...☹😳

[@georgipopov8973]

I was just thinking the same thing and was scrolling the comments to see if it has already been posted... good job, sir!

[@robertmyers4664]

Love the deep dive and thoughts! The more I think about Denathor, the more sympathetic I find him. As you mentioned, his own father and his people liked Aragorn better. His wife died extremely young, and he found himself facing an enemy that was beyond all his strength and wisdom to defeat, only to later lose his son and sense that even in victory his house might lose its rule with the potential return of Aragorn.

[@eluthiccgol4715]

Thanks Lexi. 😊

[@StormCrow702]

Oh perfect I need to wash the filth from the rings of power, and you my lady are the perfect remedy. Thank you.

[@GirlNextGondor]

May the tides of canon purify your mind and bring solace to your soul 😄

[@TheLastAxeman]

Lexi posting so much in recent days is a blessing and a cure for this broken world lol. Also as far I agree with critique of changes done to Denethor in PJ's trilogy I still love the portrayal and acting performance, for it was truly shakespearean and impactful.

[@singingunbound9705]

Absolutely brilliant and enlightening. Thank you

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thanks, so glad you enjoyed it!

[@hglundahl]

Good analysis!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thank you!

[@colindunnigan8621]

Looking at this two months later: what effect did the death of Findulias have on Denethor's mindset regarding Faramir in your estimation? Also: Drama! Yes, and we all know what makes great drama! Character development! And what builds character? Conflict!

[@shanenolan8252]

Listeners of old . Lol . Thanks lexi. Oh that line about denathor and gondor. If i can live to rule and about the loyalty of my son (,or however you worded it ) reminds me of a famous quote from ian Fleming, bond author, when told for the sake of his health he would have to stop drinking and smoking. , at dinner as he was drinking and Smoking, his wife and some dinner guests question him , and he said , if i cannot live my life in the manner i chose i would rather not live , of it leads me to an early grave , so be it . . ( he said it better im sure )

[@reflectiverambling1148]

I really appreciate this video and the additional context as to the additional texts. This models not only how important knowing the circumstances behind a statement or even work can really matter and how authorial intent can get shuffled. I'm curious if it was just an evolutionary change or if maybe this is one of the reasons continuity editors came to be, or even how the idea of editing has changed over the years as creators spend so much time in their own projects that it is very easy to lose sight of what you know in your mind and what you've created. Thank you for increasing my appreciation of this character and his relationships.

[@bigsarge2085]

oh, Denethor!

[@GirlNextGondor]

Poor guy needed a grief counsellor and multiple rounds of family therapy. Unfortunately for him, all he got was a pair of snarky Istari.

[@istari0]

@@GirlNextGondor Gandalf snarky? Lies, I tell you, lies! 😁😁

[@HowieChicago]

Watching now,thank you

[@donaldfarquar]

Thought it was pretty obvious that with Faramir's apparent death Sauron was finally able to break his will and mind. Wasn't just what he was shown.

[@matthewklobucher1830]

Not sure if you monitor comments, but do you think it’s possible to interpret the text of ROTK as Denethor knowing that the Black Ships bring Thorongil (Aragorn) to Minas Tirith? I know Denethor says to Gandalf that the wind cheats his hopes and brings up a fleet of enemies, but I’m not sure that “proves” that he isn’t aware of Aragorn. He’s famously cagey and manipulative, and I suspect he’s both testing Gandalf (and is no doubt amused that Gandalf seems unaware that ‘darling Thorongil’ is coming to the rescue) and attempting to spike Gandalf’s own hope. I think that “burning it down” (literally) makes more sense as Denethor’s response to the return of Thorongil and his own humbling, as you’ve explicated very well. Do you think Denethor would attempt to burn down Gandalf as well?

[@jessmith7324]

Good stuff. I tend to avoid most of the unpublished work or canon arguments because there are so many notes scattererd around that alot of the arguements I see look like religous ones.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Glad you enjoyed! Between the commentaries, cross-references, and even the very term 'canon,' it's a very similar feel to interpreting a religious text 😅 But if you can keep from taking things too seriously the unpublished works have a lot of fun insights!

[@jessmith7324]

@@GirlNextGondor Thnx for the input. Its def something I put into mind on my own projects with this stuff. Have a good day

[@mag_lore]

Denethor is so interesting, I don't love him but I also don't hate him (don't like his portrayal in the films though). I feel bad for him, it seems that he never had someone he could look up to and trust that also loved him back (perhaps his father did love him, but his favoritism towards Aragorn must have made things messy between them). It's really fascinating just how similar Denethor and Faramir are, and I think you're right about his self loathing reflecting onto his treatment of his sons. Side note- it's funny being a Silmarillion fan first (still love LotR , but the Silm is what I'm usually consuming) hearing names like Ecthelion, Turgon, and Denethor and picturing men of Gondor instead of elves!

[@istari0]

While Denethor clearly knew who Aragorn was (and I wonder exactly when it was that he figured it out), I had never thought about the possibility that Denethor recognized Aragorn leading the ships up the Anduin and that fact contributing to his final breakdown. I've always thought of Denethor as a basically good man but also one with serious flaws and eventually under the pressure of them all he cracked along his "flaw lines." While he outwardly upheld the idea that the stewards were running Gondor on behalf of the line of kings and would surrender that authority when the king did return, his actions say that there was no one he would have ever accepted as being worthy of being king, even if it helped Gondor. Denethor was king in all but name and he believed completely in himself as the ruler of Gondor even if he never wore a crown. That pride, arrogance, and strength of mind served him well for some time, but it ultimately led to his death as Sauron used his flaws against him. Aragorn as Thorongil provided a great deal of aid to Gondor yet in an example of the Law of Unintended Consequences, it helped turn Denethor into someone who would essentially see Isildur's Heir as almost an enemy. It would have been interesting to see, if he had survived uninjured the Battle of the Pelennor fields, how things would have played out between him and Aragorn.

[@bradwilliams7198]

When Denethor looked into the Palantir and saw the black fleet sailing up the river, wasn't this after Aragorn had wrested control of the palantiri from Sauron? So even though Sauron would want to make things appear as negative to Denethor as possible, was he able to at this point in time?

[@GirlNextGondor]

Ooh, excellent question. My palantiri lore is not my strong suite but I always read that scene as Aragorn wresting control *in that single instance* and I guess I assumed they would revert to Sauron after he Aragorn "hung up"? I'll have to check....

[@greggaravet4932]

My observation of the text is Aragorn had control of the stone he personally possessed, not the other two. That is why Sauron showed Denethor the fleet and then Aragorn with the symbols of the king to attack his pride.

[@RoleCrow]

One of the only things that i don´t like about the movies is the portrait of Denethor, i understand why they did it, there just so much time you can dedicate to him on a film with already so many characters, but still, they just made him cartoonishly evil.

[@shanenolan8252]

Agreed it made no sense. They made him a fool , and not evacuating the woman and children and not using his army . ( in the movie) they made a bit of a mess of the siege/ battle. Cool as it was it should have been better.

[@istari0]

I love the movie trilogy but one of its flaws is that pretty much all the characters are just lesser people than they were in the books and it's really annoying at times.

[@stephenward4418]

Love the new podcast style. Is there any chance in the future of you uploading these to Spotify or Audible etc.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Possibly - when I looked into it the first time I found a surprising number of hoops to jump through, but I'm continuing to research how that works. Glad you enjoyed it, they're fun to work on!

[@jimbombadill]

I realy like Denethor. The movies did him dirty BIGTIME. He might have been a bit hard on Faramir for sure but i dont think he demanded anything from his children that he wouldnt have endured himself in his youth. And realy how ever his reaction about Aragorn was both Aragorn and Gandalf could have been a bit more honest about the whole afair.

[@DCJMS]

Thorongil oh no, lol

[@GirlNextGondor]

That feeling when just the thought of running into your former coworker makes you want to hurl yourself on a bonfire....

[@DCJMS]

@@GirlNextGondor aka when I see an old class mate outside 😅

[@DavetheNord]

Superb!!! :)

[@PrometheanRising]

It should be pointed out that Sauron must have also not known who was in the ships or he would have done something about it.

[@EriktheRed2023]

Well, Mordor's commander in the field must have been surprised. Sauron may have known, but if so he was unable to communicate the information to the Lord of the Nazgûl in time to avert surprise. His swiftest messengers were probably Nazgûl on fell beasts, and they were all in Gondor already.

[@TarMody]

I maintain that the House of Arnor has a claim to the throne of Gondor because of lineage in the Ondoher period. I think the dynasty of Stewards poses a problem here.

[@williamchamberlain2263]

Denethor feared The Throngler

[@waltonsmith7210]

I think Denethor's despair drove him to madness at the prospect of him and his family losing power when Aragorn is crowned. Even if Gondor won, it wouldn't be a world where the Stewards ruled Gondor, so it wouldn't be a world worth living in for him. I think it's uber suggestive and interesting that Gandalf compared his actions to "the Heathen kings of old" who had their own family murdered to ease their own passing. I want to learn more about these Heathen kings and their rituals. That's such an interesting word choice that raises so many questions. I'm guessing it refers to the human rulers of the area that would one day become Gondor in the Second Age under the domination of Sauron. Also it's interesting that popularity actually counts in the politics of Gondor, usually conferred by military success.

[@EriktheRed2023]

As much as I like the version where Denethor shows a little more warmth to Faramir, Tolkien was, of course, right to make the change. One subtle difference this brings is that we see Denethor disagreeing with Gandalf himself - and *being right to do so* (though the narrator doesn't point this out, of course). Without holding the enemy back at Osgiliath, the Lord of the Nazgûl would have breached the gate earlier. Perhaps as much as two days before the Rohirrim arrive. And the retreating garrison of Cair Andros were no doubt glad to get inside the walls, too, before the siege of Minas Tirith was set up. Troop losses at Osgiliath would have been mitigated by that retreat not ending in disaster.

[@docopoper]

So what you're saying is that Peter Jackson was following in Tolkien's footsteps by character assassinating Denethor.

[@GirlNextGondor]

😂 "hey don't blame me, I'm just finishing what Tolkien started!" - PJ

[@kaptenteo]

I like movie Denethor just fine. In fact, he's definitely one of the most memorable characters of the trilogy. I don't think the movie version undoes the underlying sympathy and obscured love or makes him into a silly villain. During all those scenes of cruelty, I can always *see* the sorrow and conflict underneath, masterfully portrayed by John Noble's performance. This version is different from the book version, sure, but I believe it works really well, and it's not even close to being one of the "worst" changes PJ and c/o did for the movie adaptation.

[@emtiger3]

Interesting. I am surprised to hear you say that Denethor is a minor character who doesn't really affect the plot/story. I have always thought him more significant to the story. Perhaps, I am wrong, but I feel that for Tolkien to suggest that the blood of Numenor flows strong in his veins, (like Faramir, unlike Boromir) is an attempt to set Denethor up as a foil to Aragorn, but they never meet in ROTK so a showdown never occurs. A showdown that you point out has been brewing since the conquering hero Thorongil/Aragorn served Denethor's father.

[@johronok4067]

Did someone say...Denethor??

[@innovativeatavist159]

Hey speaking of gimli's character rehab I can't find it anywhere. Was this a choice on your part or is this some KZbin skull duggery ? ?

[@GirlNextGondor]

It was voluntary -- I took down the majority of my videos so I'd have time to get upfront permission from artists before re-posting them. It's been a process getting them back up but the Character Rehabs are getting priority!

[@innovativeatavist159]

@@GirlNextGondor ahhh that's comforting to know. Very thoughtful of you.

[@shanenolan8252]

Alas for denathor.

[@grallonsphere271]

I don't know if you play or even know about LotrO Lexi, but in the Midsummer Extension, where we play the marriage of Aragorn & Arwen, there is a scene where Gandlaf scolds the crowd about not judging Denethor's behavior and motivations. I found it added a layer of complexity to the character. I know, it's not cannon, but still, I think that considering how relatively closely the game is following the lore, it's an interesting take. Btw, do you plan on making any clip about the Amazon 'thing'?

[@Glorfindel_117]

I'm a little confused, is this meant to be episode 2 of the Reading Tolkien thing you started off with the Waldmen letter? Seems an odd space to start, so I assume this is just reusing the same backdrop image from that video?

[@alanvatcher8374]

Sauron showed Denethor a truth. That truth was that the Dark Lord was throwing all the other nations of Middle Earth against the West. There was never hope of resisting Sauron while The Ring existed. Denethor, like Sauron, could not imagine destroying The Ring. Rather, Denethor saw the attempt to destroy The Ring, as pure folly. (Sauron, being a worse person, could not conjure the thought that ANYONE would ever seek to destroy ultimate power. Poor Denethor, his faith wasn't up to the test.

[@alanvatcher8374]

Denethor would make an excellent Nazghul.

[@Helletirme]

I love the idea to talk about HoME content. This week was premiere of the first book with polish translation and can't wait for more.

[@GirlNextGondor]

So exciting!

[@tyhy1]

Nice video, I'll continue listening to it the next time I'll be playing Skyrim. I'd like to ask you why you hid/deleted the original denethor video, even though you say you stand by that video?

[@GirlNextGondor]

Thanks! Hope it makes a good Skyrim background listen ☺️ Re: the original Denethor video, it didn't get taken down because of the content of the video - I decided to voluntarily re-edit all my videos after getting a copyright hit in February over a piece of fanart I used in a thumbnail. I'm getting them back up one by one as I confirm explicit permission from all the artists I use - it's been a process. Denethor's vid is pretty high on my priority list so it should be up soon! Standing by what I said in the original character rehab just means that I made some points about his negative traits in the published/final version, and those points are still valid even though I give a much more sympathetic take on his character here 😁

[@tyhy1]

@@GirlNextGondor it's a good listen whilst trotting through the tundra. Avoiding vampires and the occasional cannibal or dragon. As for the explanation on the video; I see. That's good, I feared it may have been region locked or that it got deleted and lost. I'll have to wait before being able to share it with my younger brother. 👍🏻

[@allisonkreutzberg6079]

😊

[@Cat_Woods]

I don't like Denethor. I have some respect for him, but anyone who could put his personal power above all other concerns, when the entire world was hanging in the balance, no longer deserves that respect. He was too proud. Unlike Boromir, he never really felt remorse about that. He regretted getting Faramir fatally (he thought) injured but never saw the flaw in his entire attitude about his rule. Unlike Galadriel, he failed the test.

[@TerezatheTeacher]

I don't even particularly like LOTR... the books are good and I admire Tolkien's conlang skills and commitment to worldbuilding but I haven't managed to fall in love with LOTR... but LOTR videos on KZbin are just so calming, especially yours. It's like having fairy tales read to you.

[@thebrotherskrynn]

Gonna have to disagree on one key wording on your part; 'poor Denethor', honestly I have no sympathy for Denethor in regards to Aragorn and him. I've little sympathy or pity for the man as he was ever the master of his own fate and the author of his own sorrows I think. Saving of course where Boromir is concerned, there I do feel bad as no father no matter the era or person, should ever bury his child. Over-all this was a great listen! Love the comparison of Denethor with Faramir's position and Thurangil and Boromir.

[@GirlNextGondor]

Varda has the stars, Yavanna made the trees, Nienna's achievement was Gandalf 😄 and in an extended sense the establishment of the Dominion of Men.

[@thijsbos]

Please don't make me do this. Please don't keep making videos that heavily reference CHoME and make me want to reread to catch all of these subtleties. Took me a year to get through the complete thing last time