Do THIS Before You CRITIQUE Someone's Position | Leighton Flowers | Calvinism | Soteriology 101

[@rickward2977]

We ALL should listen to understand and listen to respond! I’m not ALWAYS successful, but I try. I’m not a Calvinist, Arminian, or ANY other “group” but a CHRISTIAN. I follow Christ and do affirm, however, ALL of these folks are providing commentary that I am responsible to validate based on Scripture. Blessings to you and your ministries Dr Flowers.

[@donhaddix3770]

over my 73 years I learned to listen and think, making my thinking clearer and firmer. not what I want to believe, what I have to believe. thus I am non denominational, non Calvinist, non Arminian. just a conservative literal bible only believer.

[@tims2578]

Thank you Dr. Flowers for demonstrating dialogue with love and respect. I like to remember Predestination as Gd predestined the plan, Not the man

[@graftme3168]

Yes! God predestined the plan for the church. He did not choose some individuals to be saved while excluding others. Calvinism is the weirdest doctrine I ever heard in the Christian pulpit! I had read the Bible for many years before I even heard of Calvinism, and I thought it was very strange.

[@misterdrummings]

THANK YOU for making shorter videos! I appreciate the long ones but don't always have time to watch the whole thing. It's a blessing to be able to watch and learn in smaller bites sometimes. 👍

[@Rich.Staples]

Dr, Flowers your teaching against Calvinism recently rescued my faith journey. I can now plainly see that God electing some to go to heaven is essentially electing the majority of humanity to go to Hell. I recognize (and have always recognized) God's loving nature but until you made this particular point about election clear to me i hadn't recognized the way Calvinism makes out God to be unloving. One thing I would very much appreciate is an in-depth teaching on what is meant by the phrase "the power of the Gospel." It is a theme i have seen you bring up both in your debates (with Dr. White and others) and in some of the programs you have done on this channel. The issue i'm having with understanding this is whether this power of the Gospel is in force only when God presents the Gospel to our hearts or if it is also in force when other human beings present it to us(whether in person or online). And if when it is presented to us by other people to what degree does that power remain in full force when the teaching of the Gospel is inaccurately taught? I truly wish to understand this topic. I am grateful for your defending Christian orthodox theology under the term Provisionism. For a very long time i have felt we needed some way of defending the plain testimony of the Bible regarding God's way of Loving us unto Salvation. The only reason i had been investigating Calvinism was i couldn't find a more systematic way to defend the gospel. Finding you through your debates and interactions with James White has been like God throwing me a life line to refresh the understanding He had been desperately trying to keep me rooted in. I know you are a very busy person. And if you briefly read through this message I want you to know i appreciate your God given time and talents you use to uphold the authentic Gospel.

[@jay1871]

Dude called up, stumbled through his critique, and really thought he did something. I love it lol.

[@CynVee]

Hey Dr. Flowers, saw you in yesterday's chat of Warren vs Rogue Calvinist. You made excellent points backing it up with Scripture. That three hrs was painful to listen to but Warren was extremely kind and gracious throughout though he was constantly being interrupted. I think Warren is trying to beat your marathon vids 😂

[@rodneytruitt9335]

I wasn't able to listen to the whole 3 hours. When Rogue asked Warren what being born again means to him, and listening to Warren's answer was enough for me to stop listening. When a person claims to be a Christian and doesn't believe being born again is a supernatural act of God that is enough to tell me that person has never experienced the act of being born again. I am pretty sure the bible says something like " they have a form of godliness but deny it's power."

[@mikelyons2831]

Exactly. If you are not a Believer, you are NOT Predestined to the blessings listed in Ephesians 1 (Accepted in the Beloved. Redemption through His blood. Forgiveness of sins. Gathered together. Obtained an Inheritance). It's only for you AFTER you trusted (1:13). Before, they (the saints, the faithful in Christ Jesus at Ephesus) were lost & not predestined to any of those blessings (see 2:11-13)

[@jay1871]

Leighton: consider taking a look at 1 Cor 1:30 at some point? Would like to see your discussion on this

[@jeffreybomba]

Wait a minute! A historical Calvinist interpretation of Romans 8 is the Greek work for FOREKNOWLEDGE means the same as PREDESTINATION.

[@karlcarlson4240]

Simple,,,, it's a Cult. Done.

[@lindavalentine5992]

OK, so I haven't listened to this yet, and I'm sure it will be good cause it's Leighton, but I just love, love, love the strawman/scarecrow guy!!😆

[@Deakon167]

The Scripture and the good news can be understood by a child. If you need to use a lot of theological terms to explain your doctrine, you are in troubles.

[@Ark-Angel44]

❤

[@Deakon167]

@@kgar5String It's not easy for those Pharisees and religious leaders(same as today's leaders) because they were full of themselves, full of their hearts and minds, they held their traditions and doctrines too tight, even when Jesus(whom they should serve) came, they didn't get it and pledge allegiance to him. On the contrary, those lived below levels, who knew little but wish to near and follow the King Messiah, saw better than those religious leaders. This is not an intellectual problem but a heart problem.

[@Ark-Angel44]

@@kgar5String he was talking to the Jews when he said that. Because Israel, as a nation, is still blind and deaf.

[@scwienert]

⁠@@kgar5Stringyou answered your own question. And affirmed the OP.

[@sethpawlik]

3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.” Matt 18:3 Please listen to Leighton talk about the messianic secret and he will explain why Jesus his message through parables from the Jews of that day.

[@colmortimer1066]

I believe if you are going to for or against something you must learn all about it, I often learn more about things I disagree with. As far as Calvinism I listen to a lot of Calvinist, pastors mostly. A lot of them I agree with I just think they are not listening to themselves. Like they will say you must be chosen or you will never believe, and then in the same sermon point to bible vs that say you must do the work to repent and believe in Chirst. Calvinists are like 90% right, but there is no need to preach, learn about Christ, read the bible, nor do anything if you were chosen from the beginning of time to have faith in God. Personally, I worked really hard to find, and trust God, I had many opportunities to make the choice to turn away, or turn towards the Lord. When I was younger I often made the wrong choices, now I make mostly the right ones. Often the wrong choices are fun, exciting, and lead to short term enjoyment, but I choose the long term enjoyment. Saying God decided it all, really takes out any personal responsibility for your actions. I will give Calvinists that I could not do it totally alone, but I had to choose God before he started guiding me, then I had to chose to listen to his guidance and not my own.

[@jjphank]

God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross! Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the world, but he only had to die one time Says hebrews, so don’t get it wrong like Moses; when did Jesus die ? So this trumps predestination before the foundations of the world, because God chose to to write this to disprove & trump predestination! Revelation 13:8

[@colmortimer1066]

@@jjphank Yea, you are spot on here. I always find it funny with Calvinist, I mostly listen to Presbyterians will say many of the things you have here, and then say something about being elect, and you were chosen even before you were born. It just does not add up, and it seems many venerate John Calvin, and treat him more like a false god and fail to look at the whole picture of the Bible, and how it disagrees in parts with their world view.

[@jjphank]

@@colmortimer1066 yes siree, they have to reconcile the free will verses in the Bible but you can’t use free will concerning your eternal destiny! God is Satan at that point, by faking everybody out. But what do you think about it? It’s Gnosticism it’s a secret knowledge. For God so partially loved the world …. that whosoever God picks Will not perish, but have eternal life!

[@JohnQPublic11]

Yes Dr. Flowers you nailed it, in a nutshell, 99% of all people who claim to be Calvinists don't have the foggiest clue what the doctrines of Reformed Theology teach.

[@primeobjective5469]

"You just don't understand Calvinism." "You have yet to be enlightened by the Doctrines of Grace." "You're appealing to human logic." Calvinistic cognitive dissonance is boundless. It crushes a man's ego.

[@JohnQPublic11]

@@primeobjective5469 --- Right, those are some of the typical programed memes regurgitated by the Imperial Sith-Calvinist Droid Army.

[@KodyCrimson]

Let's not forget the best "If you really were a Calvinist you would understand it. So don't critique it if you're not."

[@JohnQPublic11]

I think my two favorites are “You can’t give an internal critique of Reformed Theology because you don’t believe what we believe.” and “If you don’t believe in and accept the morass of contradictions we believe then you are straw manning us because that’s not what we believe.”, even though what you are claiming we believe is the natural consequence of what we believe, we don't believe "that", despite the fact that what we believe is crazy talk.

[@Veretax]

Yeah all of us Christians struggle with us at times because we want to believe everything is as simple as we think it is and it's often not

[@Dropaprayer]

It's pronounced "presh-ence" not - pre-science." 😊

[@mannyedwards2820]

I thought it was PREH-see-ence

[@Christian-Carr]

Dr. Flowers it says all who foreknew he called. How does God call us through preaching? Or direct?

[@Veretax]

If the preaching is rooted in the word of God then you are literally echoing God's call through scripture. This is so obvious to me that I feel like people don't realize the word of God itself is the power unto salvation

[@Christian-Carr]

@@Veretax thank you that cleared that up

[@HogMask]

I don't understand how God could have created everything without determining every event and human decion. I understand that foreknowledge doesn't equal causation. But He has foreknowledge and is also the creator. It's like lining up dominos to fall over into an elaborate pattern. You won't be surprised by the result. You planned it out, you knew how the end result would look. I like the idea that I have agency but it's hard to believe I do when faced with a God that knows all.

[@EdKidgell]

"Synominous", "pre-science" ??? What is he talking about?

[@roddyk2655]

💯 .. I just... 🤦‍♂😒

[@gumshoestudiospresents557]

Since we’re on the subject of straw men, wouldn’t it be a fair assessment to say that the recent documentary put out by Dr. Michael Brown and others, Once Saved, Always Saved, is at worst, a straw man of the Calvinist position of Eternal Security?

[@Alice-K1865]

At first I was rudely looking down on the caller for pronouncing prescience as "pre-science," but then Leighton pronounced it the same way and I was very confused. I've never heard it pronounced that way before. Was Leighton just mispronouncing it so the caller didn't get confused or what?

[@gloirek]

I googled it and indeed foresight and prescience are synonymous.

[@SSNBN777]

One thread binds all Calvinists together. They each believe they were chosen and given eternal life before the Cross of Christ, then forced to believe in Him a nano second later. That's why I reject all forms of it.

[@levifox2818]

This doesn’t sound like Calvinism. Could you explain what you mean by “a nano second later”? Later than what?

[@R.L.KRANESCHRADTT]

​@@levifox2818 Calvinist lay claim to the Augustinian(false) premise, upon which their doctrine is built, which says all men are "born" unable to believe and respond positively to God and/or the Gospel. The most common and consistent claim of Calvinism is that 'regeneration (salvation) always precedes faith'. They claim that no man can believe until God effectually makes it happen.... but He only does this for some. (the rest bust Hell wide open without a prayer.... literally ) Calvinists realize this is the opposite of any scripture describing how salvation occurs because, in scripture, the order is always that one believes unto salvation. Calvinists claim men believe because they are saved.... not that they are saved because they believe. Consequently, they must have some kind of quasi-instantaneous event where the ability to believe and the actual expression of believing collide. It's nonsense. They have the cart before the horse and they know it. But, that will not work with Augustinian Total Depravity/Inability, so they 'fudge' it in a nano-second. and hope no one will notice.🧐 Technically, Arminians have the same problem, they just argue about how to solve the problem of how to get a man saved who cannot believe the Gospel. they opt for foreknowledge and prevenient grace. BUT, It is a problem which does not exist. God has promised to save whosoever will believe. And God can be trusted to honor his promise. There is no verse or passage which ever establishes anyone is "born" unable to believe or respond positively to God. Some will believe, some will not... but anyone can. That's why it's called "Good News".

[@SSNBN777]

@@levifox2818 Calvinism teaches that God sovereignly regenerates an elect person BEFORE belief in the Cross, and gives them the gift of faith so that they are now compelled by that gifted faith to believe in Jesus, they cannot not believe. So they teach there is a flash of time between receiving regeneration (salvation) and believing in Jesus Christ, and there is a fancy name that I cannot remember. That's impossible according to Scripture. Faith comes from hearing the Gospel, not before, and regeneration (sealing by the holy Spirit), proceeds after belief in Jesus, not before. (Eph 1:13) Rom 10:14-15 But how can they call to him for help if they have not believed? And how can they believe if they have not heard the message? And how can they hear if the message is not proclaimed? [17] So then, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message comes through preaching Christ.

[@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg]

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were G1125 ➔ not written G1125 in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Strong's: G1125 English: were written Code: V-RPI-3S Long: Verb - Perfect Passive Indicative - 3rd Person Singular Speech: Verb 👉Tense: Perfect👈 👉Voice: Passive👈 Mood: Indicative Person: 3rd Person Number: Singular In Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an 👉action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.👈 Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI ("It is finished!") is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely "It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time."

[@user-kf6vj7we9v]

There are too many heresies for anyone to keep track of. All I know is anyone who identifies as a Calvinist, Lutheran, Catholic, or whatever is deviating from what Jesus instructed his disciples.

[@jamesjohnson8918]

God has to appoint people to preach the gospel. But that's for purpose not salvation

[@1995dodgetruck]

When you speak in generalized language, sometimes one's specific belief may differ from what you are teaching. God does predetermine that all who repents of sin and trusts Jesus for salvation will be saved. The Holy Spirit uses means to bring conviction on the sinner to bring the sinner to Christ and indwelling the sinner when the sinner is saved.

[@Christian-Carr]

It's funny that we make things about John Calvin or someone else instead of about Christ none died for our sins accept Christ.

[@peterfox7663]

No one is saying John Calvin died for anyone's sins or anything of the sort.

[@Christian-Carr]

@@peterfox7663 I understand then he shouldn't be the focus of our lives I feel calling oneself a Calvinist instead of a Christian causes division in the body we are I rather someone say I am a holy man then say I am a armenian or something like that. Just like apostle Paul said in Corinthians one is of alpollos another of peter another of Paul did they die for you? No

[@peterfox7663]

@@Christian-Carr It's just a quick label to identify specific beliefs and understandings.

[@scottibreiding]

“pre-science”😂

[@clintd3476]

Heard someone tell me to never laugh at someone the mispronounces something they’ve read but not heard. At least they’ve read it. Changed my level of pride. But also agree it was humorous because I didn’t expect it.

[@robertwheeler1158]

What he meant here was foreknowledge. One argument that is sometimes presented against Calvinism is that foreknowledge means that God knew from all eternity who would believe, and then chose them for salvation.

[@scottibreiding]

@@robertwheeler1158 i know what the word means. he mispronounced it. and i don’t know any non-calvinist that advocates for that view anyway.

[@scottibreiding]

@@clintd3476 i laugh because he’s critiquing another’s point of view without even knowing how to say the word. know what you’re talking about or at least know how to use the word if you’re going to post something like that.

[@clintd3476]

@@scottibreiding I hear ya.

[@erickanter]

Please Calvinist stop using Jacob and Esau to justify your argument. Jacob and Esau were about election to SERVICE not salvation.

[@thm8521]

Romans 9

[@colmortimer1066]

Watch this part 5:00 for about 20 seconds. Also the point of this whole video was why you should know the position of those opposing you. You literally used a chapter that he addressed in the video.

[@peterfox7663]

Romans 10

[@vitaignis5594]

The GREEKS

[@SantaFe19484]

Don't use strawman arguments.

[@merrickc1876]

I think the correct way to read Romans 8 - Romans 11:12 is by taking it all as for the Jews as a description of their state without Christ, state with Christ and the Justification of the Gentiles to be included through Faith. The whole Romans 7- Romans 11:12 are in context for the Jews and their election. I think in this light Calvinisms’ interpretation is incorrect “Refers to ALL who know the law” ”Or do you not know, brothers-for I am speaking to those who know the law-that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?“ ‭‭Romans‬ ‭7‬:‭1‬ ‭ESV‬‬ Now only in Romans 11:13 is Paul talking to Gentiles ”Now I am speaking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry“ ‭‭Romans‬ ‭11‬:‭13‬ ‭ESV‬‬

[@vitaignis5594]

I recommend reading some Greek early Church Fathers commentary on the book of Romans. Their views are not tainted with modernist, innovative thought.

[@merrickc1876]

@@vitaignis5594 you mean base it in tradition and church fathers instead of scripture in context? think about it, there were no chapter and verses before the church in Romans would have made this distinction that Romans 7- Romans 11:12 are addressed to the Jews of the congregation.

[@El_Fin_Está_Cerca]

For me, one of the best proofs that *Calvinism is EVIL* comes when I post on calvinist channels exposing the corruption of this doctrine. The owner of the channel responds to me, and immediately blocks me, so that I cannot respond to his poor arguments. What was the name of that one who does not love the truth and the light?

[@sheilasmith7779]

God knowing something in the future is not causing that thing/event in the future.

[@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg]

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were G1125 ➔ not written G1125 in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Strong's: G1125 English: were written Code: V-RPI-3S Long: Verb - Perfect Passive Indicative - 3rd Person Singular Speech: Verb 👉Tense: Perfect👈 👉Voice: Passive👈 Mood: Indicative Person: 3rd Person Number: Singular In Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an 👉action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.👈 Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI ("It is finished!") is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely "It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time."

[@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg]

As you can see, the Book of Life was completed in the past. God's foreknowledge is causation for salvation. What He knows about where a soul will go for eternity CAN NOT be changed according to that soul's own will. We were predestined to sonship/justification according to His will.

[@johnknight3529]

"God knowing something in the future is not causing that thing/event in the future." Your language use is very confusing to me. It seems you're saying His "knowing something" is not causing things, and I wonder if you mean to say He is not causing things? Surely you believe He can plan to do things, and then do them, don't you?

[@johnknight3529]

@@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg - "- "We were predestined to sonship/justification according to His will." You said "we", which implies you and some others to me. How do you know YOU were predestined to sonship/justification according to His will?

[@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg]

@@johnknight3529 Because His word tells me. Ephesians 1:5. And the Spirit bears witness that I am a child of God.

[@ironleatherwood]

Calvinism needs to be rebuked regularly. Teaching that God doesn't offer salvation to all humans is horrible. It attempts to change salvation as we see in scripture. Why would anyone label themselves after another person, Calvin.

[@scienceandbibleresearch]

Calvinism doesn’t teach that.

[@ironleatherwood]

@@scienceandbibleresearch John and John do. Pay attention to everything they teach.

[@scienceandbibleresearch]

@@ironleatherwood : Where?

[@ironleatherwood]

@scienceandbibleresearch are you serious? Do you know what Calvinism teaches? What does the I stand for? If God offers someone salvation, then they will be saved, guaranteed. What does this tell you about the majority that are not born again.

[@scienceandbibleresearch]

@@ironleatherwood : Just because one is not born again doesn’t mean they didn’t have salvation offered to them. The “I” stands for irresistible grace. Those God calls can’t help but come because they’ve been born again. Your useless oversimplification of the “I” in TULIP has led to false conclusions about Calvinism.

[@jjphank]

God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross! Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the world, but he only had to die one time Says hebrews, so don’t get it wrong like Moses; when did Jesus die ? So this trumps predestination before the foundations of the world, because God chose to to write this to disprove & trump predestination! Revelation 13:8

[@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg]

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were G1125 ➔ not written G1125 in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Strong's: G1125 English: were written Code: V-RPI-3S Long: Verb - Perfect Passive Indicative - 3rd Person Singular Speech: Verb 👉Tense: Perfect👈 👉Voice: Passive👈 Mood: Indicative Person: 3rd Person Number: Singular In Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an 👉action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.👈 Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI ("It is finished!") is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely "It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time."

[@virgilcaine3291]

So you're ruling out, calling them heretics, teaching their heresies, and leading thousands to hell in the comments? Interesting.

[@RideOnBrother]

Dr. Flowers before God made the world He already knew who would be in Heaven and Hell, right? Then He made it knowing the beginning from the end. In your theology are you proposing a god that learns new information? He had to look into time as if he didn’t already know what was going to happen beforehand? Isn’t that lowering God and elevating man? I think this is already struck down by the potter and the clay and the complaint of fairness in scripture. What is the personal emotional reason behind your theology? Do you fear an all knowing sovereign God who has complete rights over his creation to do all that He wills? What about the pre-flood world? Was God unjust? Did everyone get a sit down with Noah and an offer of a boat ride beforehand? Jesus says in Matthew 24 that the flood was a surprise to the world. Why do people believe Noah warned the entire earth and every single individual? What about a guy crucified the day before Jesus was? Did he get a chance to hang on a cross next to Jesus? Obviously not. I don’t think you can run with your theology without coming to some kind of universalism in its logical end. Do you think everyone has equal exposure to the gospel today? Is that really what we see? Or has God so ordered the world and brought everything to pass so the elect will be gathered to salvation?

[@JesusIsLord777-lz7mg]

Rev 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were G1125 ➔ not written G1125 in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. Strong's: G1125 English: were written Code: V-RPI-3S Long: Verb - Perfect Passive Indicative - 3rd Person Singular Speech: Verb 👉Tense: Perfect👈 👉Voice: Passive👈 Mood: Indicative Person: 3rd Person Number: Singular In Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in English, and describes an 👉action which is viewed as having been completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be repeated.👈 Jesus' last cry from the cross, TETELESTAI ("It is finished!") is a good example of the perfect tense used in this sense, namely "It [the atonement] has been accomplished, completely, once and for all time."

[@andrewtsousis3130]

Of course God is Omnipotent, and Omniscient. The Calvinist argument that God already knew who is saved and who isn’t, therefore must’ve determined everything, is self defeating. Why? Genesis tells us clearly that God made Adam and Eve and gave them a choice. Tell me, was God Sovereign before the fall? Yes. Was God sovereign after the fall? Yes. Based on this fact, the only conclusion a Calvinist can make is that God must’ve determined the fall as well, why? To show His sovereignty . Any Calvinist that doesn’t confirm this is being in-consistent with the doctrine, and the Calvinist concept of Gods sovereignty. So Calvinism must conclude God determines everything’s including all evil for His glory and sovereignty. Tell me: If the Calvinist God is Pure, Holy, Just, long suffering, Love AND determines all evil for His glory: 1. What does an Un-Holy deity look like? 2. God must’ve determined satan as well otherwise he’s not ultimately sovereign? The Calvinist concept that God still allows man to have pseudo “free-will” and do what his natural heart leads him to do is nonsense, because it still means God is not sovereign if He allows that. (They must conclude this) . So too is the Calvanist concept of two wills of God, nonsense totally not scriptural. So Based on the fact that we all agree that God is sovereign after the fall and the Bible says God is Holy, Pure, Just, long suffering and Love, AND DOESN’T decree all evil for His glory, we must conclude that: 1. We do have choice 2. Even though God is Omnipotent and Omniscient, He doesn’t pick and choose who is saved and who isn’t from eternity past, because He genuinely wants us to love Him in return. 3. God does know the future but doesn’t determine all the choices we make, and He is still Sovereign.

[@RideOnBrother]

@@andrewtsousis3130 God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass, yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established. a: Romans 9:15, Romans 9:18, Romans 11:33, Ephesians 1:11, Hebrews 6:17 b: James 1:13, James 1:17, 1 John 1:5 c: Proverbs 16:33, Matthew 17:12, John 19:11, Acts 2:23, Acts 4:27-28

[@jeffreybeaupre4319]

Prescience is pronounced "preshe-ense"... please don't look as ignorant as your anonymous objector who also pronounced it wrong. Dictionary Definitions from Oxford Languages pre·science /ˈpreSH(ē)əns/