UNMASKING the MYTH of Calvinism in ROMANS 9 | Leighton Flowers

Dr. Leighton Flowers talk with ‪@RTHenry83‬ about the context of Romans 9 and why it doesn't teach Calvinism. When properly understood, Romans 9 is a dichotomy of a faith vs. works rather than predestined to heaven vs. predestined to hell. Paul is not teaching Calvinism...
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[@Just_a_Reflection]

I was an unintentional Calvinist until my supervisor, who is coincidentally a well learned associate pastor, began gently showing me the discrepancies in my faith. Two days later, I was led to this channel, to which he, unbeknownst to me, already subscribes😅! I have shed every petal of the TULIP from my belief. Thank you, Dr. Flowers. And, if you are reading this, Eric, Thank you, sir.

[@ronaverell864]

I wonder: why wasn’t Abraham justified, “By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed “ from his call in Ur Hebrews 11:8, but was justified some years later in Gen 15:1-6? Abraham by faith obeyed, built an altar to the LORD and even called on the Name of the LORD; yet was ungodly, ( Romans 4:1-5 as speaking of Abraham God Justified the ungodly) unrighteous, a sinner & enemy of God and under God’s Wrath as one ungodly & unrighteous ( Romans 1:18; 5:6-10) Why wasn’t Abraham justified by faith obeyed…. Does Romans answer this? Who did the LORD give the inheritance of the Reward to? How was Abraham justified Pros Theon? ( Romans 4:2) I wonder. How does this follow Romans 3: 9-18 Abraham called & walked by faith & obeyed before he left Haran at 75; but was justified when he was about 85( the year before Ishmael’s birth) Why? If you- not meaning you specifically but someone don’t know these simple truths; would you be able to follow the truths in Romans 9; I just wonder….. How do these truths Glorify the Gospel of God concerning & all about His Son?

[@johnknight3529]

@@ronaverell864 Well, I'm a someone not specifically ronavereII ; ) and though it's hard for me to follow your question's logics very well, with so much jumping I must do between the passages you cite and your sub-comments/inquiries related to them, I suspect the answer might involve what God Himself (via the angel of the Lord) said to Abraham himself, for His assessment of Abrahan's act of faith; "And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together. And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering? And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together. And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood. And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son. And the angel of the Lord called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I. And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." Note please, that God essentially said He did not know for sure if Abraham "fearest God", before that moment.

[@cerealscrub4609]

​​@@ronaverell864Just to note, just because God DIDNT say Abraham was justified while leaving haran, DOESNT mean he wasn't. Abraham might have believed in the Lord while leaving haran and was justified...who knows. Regardless of wether or not genesis 15 is the first time that Abraham is actually placing his salvation in God, you cannot escape what the verse says. It says and Abraham BELIEVED GOD and He counted it to him for RIGHTEOUSNESS! Amen. The verse DOESNT say and Abraham BELIEVED and WORKED for righteousness. No, it says righteousness was given at the moment of belief. So whatever is going on we know that apart from covenant and works that God justified Abraham by faith alone. Romans 4 says Abraham was justified APART from covenant and works but by faith alone.

[@ReclaimerX22]

Lol, TULIP... Flowers... I never made that connection until just now, but that's funny.

[@Just_a_Reflection]

@@ReclaimerX22 🤔Good eye!

[@CynVee]

Never tire of listening to Dr. Flowers explain Romans 9. Thank you brother.

[@kevinrtres]

I just hope he is NOT the only one you listen to. Leighton is spinning tales around what could have been, what might have been - not what actually is in the text.

[@CynVee]

@kevinrtres oh, I've listened to others, but God has determined I would believe Dr. Flowers' explanation

[@lindsaysimplified]

My favorite thing about the interviewer is I can’t tell what his leaning is theologically (I’ve not watched his videos and had never heard of him until this), but he lets you present provisionism fairly, doesn’t interrupt and isn’t trying to straw man you. I love that. What a great interviewer.

[@kevinrtres]

What exactly is the "provisionism" and where is this dogma found in the bible?

[@caleb.lindsay]

Leighton, i just really hope you know how grateful I am, and i'm sure soooo many others are, for your channel. this is like reading Romans for the first time, and not in the "this is totally new!" sense but in the "it all finally makes sense!" sense. God bless you, sir.

[@kevinrtres]

Maybe you should read it for yourself. Slowly and repeatedly. Then compare Ezekiel 37, Deuteronomy 7, 1 Corinthians 2:18-29, Ephesians 2, and many more. Point is the bible is replete with text showing God's sovereignty in CHOOSING who and what is to come to pass. IT's God who chooses, not mankind. Forget about the supposedly infamous "calvinism" and read the bible to see God's sovereignty in everything. Then come again and listen to this talk that is all about conflating Calvinism as a dirty word with what is actually in the bible.

[@calebcrawford2520]

I'm so glad God lead me out of Calvinism. It smears His holy nature and character. It makes Him out to be a cosmic dictator Who really doesn't want everyone to be saved. He really isn't that loving if He predetermines for people to go to Hell, which means they could never have a chance to come to Him. I trust the God of the Bible, not the god of Calvinism.

[@kevinrtres]

Sorry, you've just created a god of your own making - exactly as Leighton has done. Just because you cannot stomach that mankind has sinned and God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. Did God force Adam to sin? Or did Adam have total free will to eat of that fruit or not? Therein lies the crux. By eating of the fruit, Adam condemned all the seed that would come out of his body - thereby setting into motion that God had to step in to save SOME. It wasn't God who condemned them - it was Adam eating of the fruit. Don't blame God for that.

[@andrewjackson8244]

Thankyou so much Leighton! Your insight in Calvinism and Biblical passages used to support that view have been immeasurably helpful

[@kevinrtres]

I prefer to read the bible for myself and see God's sovereignty in choosing everywhere in scripture. It's unmistakable. All the drivel about calvinism misses the point and pushes forward the supposed "truth" about provisionism which is nowhere to be found in scriptures!!!! Read the bible for yourself - and in fact just do a word search to find out how God chooses and determines what should happen everywhere in text!!!!

[@andrewjackson8244]

@@kevinrtres you imply that I haven't read the Bible. Just to fill you in, I was a Christian for 16 years before I ever heard about Calvinism. During those 16 years I was not stagnant in reading the Bible. When the position was presented to me and everything it teaches I was appalled and thought it completely unscriptural. I did not study it for the next five years and then two years ago I truly started digging in to better equip myself to explain why I find it to be un-Biblical. Fun fact for you, search up, "Sovereignty" in the Bible and you won't find a single result. Search up, "Free Will" and you will indeed find texts that use that phrase. So by your own criteria you use to dismiss someone else's position, when applied to yourself we can dismiss yours. Now I would prefer if neither side dismiss the other. Lastly, you said that God's Sovereignty in choosing can be seen every where in scripture, I wouldn't reject that at all. What I do reject is that God's choosing is unconditional and effectual. THAT is something that is completely foreign to the Bible. If you think we have no choice in the matter why does God say through His prophets, "Chose you this day whom you will serve." "Turn away from your wickedness and chose life; why should you die?" "All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrite people." And from the mouth of the Lord Himself we hear, "How I longed to gather you like a mother hen gathers her chicks but you were not willing." All these passages and you want to take a position that mankind has no influential choice? So who is reading scripture and who is allowing a presupposition to fog their view of scripture again?

[@jdominguez777]

In Romans 9, the part where Paul says “what if God endured….” It destroys Calvinism, this point never is brought up. It would be like me telling my son to be naughty, and then him being naughty and I would be enduring his naughtiness…it only makes sense if I endure my sons naughtiness, by his own decision to be naughty. Obviously God is infinitely more that me, but that’s a point I realized

[@jjphank]

Good point! God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross! Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the world, but he only had to die one time Says hebrews, so don’t get it wrong like Moses; when did Jesus die ? So this trumps predestination before the foundations of the world, because God chose to to write this to disprove & trump predestination! Revelation 13:8

[@dw6528]

DW: Yes! Excellent point! However in Calvinism's case - what Calvin's god is "enduring" is *REALLY* nothing more than that which he himself decrees . Per the doctrine - the only way [X] can come to pass within creation is if [X] is decreed And that decree does not grant any ALTERNATIVE So the only events Calvin's god has to "Endure with much patience" are events which he himself brought into existence and did not permit them to be other than what he decreed. Thus a unique characteristic of Calvin's god - is that he treats what he knows to be TRUE *AS-IF* it is FALSE He decrees [X] to infallibly come to pass not permitting it to be otherwise And he knows that to be infallibly TRUE And then he treats what he knows to be infallibly TRUE *AS-IF* it is FALSE The scripture says "A FALSE balance is an abomination to the Lord" Calvin's god does not differentiate between a TRUE balance and a FALSE balance He treats a TRUE balance *AS-IF* it is FALSE.

[@jeremywolffbrandt7488]

I'd disagree. It can still pain God for us to violate his law even if he ordained it.

[@dw6528]

@@jeremywolffbrandt7488 DW: In Calvinism the term "Ordain" functions as a replacement word for "Decree". John Calvin -quote The creatures...are so governed by the secret counsel of god, that *NOTHING HAPPENS* but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (Institutes 1. 16. 3) Thus any "pain" involved in that process is self inflicted. In Calvinism - every impulse that comes to pass within the human brain - is First Conceived in the mind of Calvin's god - and then *MADE* to infallibly come to pass within creation. Creation functions as a passive recipient of that which was infallibly decreed to come to pass within it. And man as a passive recipient of that which is decreed is granted NO SAY and NO CHOICE in the matter. So whatever "pain" might come about from that process - is obviously self AUTHORED and self PRODUCED.

[@jjphank]

@@jeremywolffbrandt7488 you’re brainwashed! The Bible says: God is light in him There is no darkness at all. God is love & He’s 100% just He Has To be 100% of both to fairly judge everything perfectly God is not the author of evil So You can’t blame him for the evil in this world God made hell for the devil and his angels so you can’t blame him for throwing You into hell

[@jerrystatic256]

Just ordered your book the Potters Promise. Looking forward to reading it.

[@canadiankewldude]

Thank you and may God Bless

[@StevenMillhorn]

A brilliant extrapolation..............Thank you much Leighton.

[@kevinrtres]

..extrapolation...therein lies the problem - not dealing with the text itself but bringing in stuff that he made up. Just listen very carefully.

[@SpielbergMichael]

Another great video!

[@BrandonGray]

Leighton, As Ishmael refers to the children of the flesh, children of the bondwoman, Esau also is a part of this allegorical equation. For he sold his birth right for a bowl of soup and lost the blessing because God had chosen before the lads were born. Esau too is representative of the children according to the flesh. It is an Old Testament motif.

[@peteperkins3859]

Now do Ephesians Ch.1 verse 1-5.

[@kevinrtres]

...and ephesians 2, and ezekiel 37, and deuteronomy 7 and exodus 33, and 1 cor 2:18-29 and..and..and..the bible is replete with texts showing God's sovereignty - something which provisionists cannot stomach.

[@gracebest3102]

The Elder shall SERVE the younger.... It does NOT say the Elder is damned and the younger is saved. That idea is NOT in the text. It is an error imported by Calvinists.

[@g.c.541]

This is very important to understand about Romans 9:22 when Paul is explaining the hardening of Pharaoh’s heart because the Greek word katartízō is in the middle voice in the Greek language. Meaning, the vessel hardened its own heart, not God. God just allowed it to happen. God let Pharaoh have what he already wanted. There is no getting around the middle voice in the Greek. Vines Complete Expository Dictionary on Rom. 9:22: “Of vessels of wrath; here the middle voice signifies that those referred to "fitted" themselves for destruction (as illustrated in the case of Pharaoh, the self-hardening of whose heart is accurately presented in the RV in the first part of the series of incidents in the Exodus narrative, which records Pharaoh's doings…”

[@cole_nielsen]

Hello my friend. I am replying to your comment here in hopes of showing you that your argument is not a sound one. Let me here attempt to make my case to you in love. 1st point: Romans 9:22 is not about Pharaoh, ““And what if God, wanting to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath having been prepared for destruction,” Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭22‬ ‭LSB‬‬ Point 2: The verb you are pointing out in Greek. Καταρτίζω: it means (I prepare) in this specific form, but the form it is in in Romans 9:22 is Perfect Tense Middle/Passive Participle, it is in the accusative plural in the same way at the word σκεύη (vessels) is in the accusative plural form, thus this participle is describing the word vessels. Because this word is perfect tense the verb takes place in the past with continuous results into the present. Because it is middle/passive it is translated instead of the subject doing the verb, the subject having the verb done to them. (Example: Active Voice, Tom hit the ball. Passive Voice, Tom was hit by the ball.) So these vessels were past tense “prepared”, because it is middle/passive, for destruction. As evidenced by the following different translations I will post here. “What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭22‬ ‭NKJV‬‬ “What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭22‬ ‭ESV‬‬ “What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭22‬ ‭KJV‬‬ “What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath-prepared for destruction?” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭22‬ ‭NIV‬‬ “But what if God, willing to demonstrate his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the objects of wrath prepared for destruction?” ‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭22‬ ‭NET‬‬ 3rd Point: Middle voice does not automatically mean the subject is doing something to themselves, in fact this usage is very rare for the middle voice, and this is common knowledge you can find in any beginning Greek grammar. Most middle voices are translated the same as an active voice verb, but it is usually with the caveat that the subject was probably doing the action with their own interests in mind, and in the case of participles, this specific form is almost always the passive voice, which is why all these translations have it translated that way. A final loving word of advice my brother, it seems to me you don’t have knowledge of the Greek language and you are relying on this one persons argument for this flawed Interpretation of the text, every Greek teacher I have read has said that only knowing a little Greek is the most dangerous place to be, because it’s easy to fall into error. Please, in the future don’t use Greek as an argument if you do not know it because it is easy to lead others into error as well, or even better you can learn Greek and read God’s word in its original language! I hope this message falls upon you peacefully and in love my friend. God bless you, peace to you and your family.

[@johnknight3529]

@@cole_nielsen - "1st point: Romans 9:22 is not about Pharaoh..." It seems you forgot to say "in my opinion", or words to that effect. (I've noticed Calvinists quite often forget to add such things ...) These are the verses leading up to Romans 9:22; "For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Pray tell how you know with absolute certainty, that the next words are "not about Pharoah" ?

[@cole_nielsen]

@@johnknight3529 Hello friend, thank you for your message to me. While Pharaoh is surely a part of the vessels of wrath who were prepared for destruction, he is not the primary focus of verse 22. Pharaoh was used as an example earlier, as you have shown, to display how God can use people for whatever purpose He pleases. The very fact that the noun “vessels” is plural shows that the scripture is talking about more than just one person, showing Pharaoh is not the main focus of that particular sentence. I hope this reply comes to you in peace and love. God bless you, grace and peace to you and your household.

[@g.c.541]

​@@cole_nielsen Replying to your first point: You said Romans 9:22 is not talking about Pharaoh. Have you even read Romans 9? Paul is making the case for God’s sovereign choice regarding nations. Yes, his main point is about Jacob, but Jacob is a synonym for the nation of Israel in this context. Immediately after Paul mentions Israel and Edom (Rom. 9:13) he employs the use of Pharaoh as an example (9:15-17). Pharaoh represented Egypt as the federal head of that nation and hardened his own heart according to (Exo. 7:13; Exo. 7:14; Exo. 7:22; Exo. 8:15; Exo. 8:32). Replying to your second point: The literal translation is “to complete thoroughly, prepare, or fitted.” God did NOT harden Pharaoh’s heart in Exodus until Pharaoh hardened his own heart multiple times. God just let Pharaoh have what he already wanted. Replying to your third point: I honestly think it is you that is confused because regarding the middle voice: The subject is part, or all of the action. In other words, the subject is both the cause and the focus, the agent and experiencer, of the verbal action. “I moved (myself).” Just to prove to you that I am not making this up, or as you falsely accused me in your previous comment saying that I am ignorant of the Greek (even though you do not know me), the Complete Word Study Dictionary comments on the Greek word Καταρτίζω in Rom. 9:22, “Generally to prepare, set in order, constitute, only in the pass. and mid. where the per. must be taken with the mid. sense in that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves unto destruction. They were not fitted for destruction by God.” Replying to your final comment: Respectfully, your false humility is laughable. First you call me your friend when you obviously are not my friend. The word “friend” has a definition, and our relationship does not satisfy the terms of that definition. Secondly, you called me your brother. Again, that word has a definition that our relationship has not satisfied because I have no idea who you are - or if you are even saved and a child of God. You could be an unsaved person which would not make us brothers at all. Words have meaning. You are not only misinterpreting Romans 9, but you added a pronoun to Καταρτίζω and then you wrongly used several words in English while addressing me. By deduction of our conversation, I have a pretty good assumption that you most likely are a Calvinist. Calvinist hate context and love to manipulate the Text by adding words or removing them to fit their Calvinistic system. Calvinist also have a problem harmonizing Old Testament revelation with New Testament revelation. I leave you with this: God’s sovereign choice in Romans 9 is the choosing of nations and not individual people. It is also a choosing unto service and not unto salvation. Pharaoh was the head of the Egyptian nation. Who God showed His wrath to AFTER Pharaoh hardened his own heart several times. Because of Pharaohs choice, all of the first born males died in Egypt that did not put the blood on the door post. The entire nation suffered because of his choice. In God’s sovereignty He also chose the nation of Israel (Jacob). The same Israel that hardened their own hearts and were then hurled headlong into the horrors of A.D.70 after the nations religious leaders attributed Christ’s miracles to the devil (Mat. 12:24). It was not God’s sovereign choice for Pharoah to grow hard; nor was it God’s sovereign choice for Israel's heart to be hard. They hardened their own hearts too which God then used to show His wrath. Act 7:51, “You stiff-necked people, … you always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.”

[@cole_nielsen]

@@g.c.541 my friend, I am not worried about arguing Romans 9 so much with you now as I am about your conduct towards me. The second greatest commandment is, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” I was simply trying to fulfill this commandment with my loving speech towards you. You said I shouldn’t say that it seemed to me that your knowledge of Greek wasn’t strong without knowing you, but you apply false humility to me without knowing me, this is having uneven scales and measures and this is unjust my brother, and something you should repent for. Christ said that people would know His disciples by how they love one another. You are a professing believer in Christ, I was trying to show you the love that we all should be showing to one another as believers in Christ. Paul says you can have faith that moves mountains but without love it is in vain. Love is first and foremost in the kingdom of God, it is part of the first and second greatest commandments. I would thoroughly enjoy discussing further with you Romans 9 my friend but I don’t want to do it in the spirit of anger, but only in a fruitful spirit of love. God bless you, peace to you and your household.

[@stevesybesma]

Leighton, I wonder if Romans chapter 9 is what Peter referred to when he said in 2 Peter 3:16 "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction." Sounds like even Peter struggled with Paul's writings. I don't feel so bad now.

[@TheRomans9Guy]

Did you ever see my interview with Kevin Thompson on the tie between Paul’s symbology reversal in Galatians 4 and what Paul dries throughout Romans 9?

[@brandilee923]

Hey Dr Flowers I was wondering and maybe you already have a video on this but there seem to be several places in The Gospel of John where Jesus speaks of those the Father gives him. Could you do a video and speak to that and why it’s not calvinism?

[@Soteriology101]

Only if one assumes that God gives people to Jesus unconditionally would such phrases support Calvinism. God gave those who with faith to his Son (ie Simeon, Cornelius, Lydia etc)

[@Shark_fishing]

@@Soteriology101 Then Jesus said, "This is why I told you no one can come to me unless the Father has granted it to him." John 6:45

[@dslpr6320]

Would you please address the newest Bible translation by John MacArthur… Legacy Standard Bible. Although I am not a Calvinist, I am curious if that translation is Calvinistic leaning.

[@UnfrozenCavemanLawyer-xq1qi]

Well, it was edited (its an update to the NASB, not a new trans.) by a handful of men at Masters College and Seminary. (all Calvinists). That was enough for me to steer clear of it.

[@LiezlVN]

I believe all bibles are neutral. But if you get a STUDY bible with commentaries, then there maybe biases.

[@user-uo8kb5rv7n]

I agree...men have free will but God will mold events and determine the outcome according to His purpose...all things come together for good to those who love the Lord...and the way of the ungodly shall perish.

[@ryleighloughty3307]

It is a contradiction to say that simultaneously, God is absolutely sovereign (which he is) and then say that he is not because he requires human effort to complete his salvation. God's absolute sovereignty is the basis of Calvinism. Hence, it is a biblically accurate doctrine.

[@Zb-uo2bl]

You make an awesome point, The Potter, Father God, is a perfect potter. He did "mar it"! And potters know how to slake the clay and reform it!

[@Zb-uo2bl]

My auto-incorrect😮, He Did Not intentionally mar it, was my point.

[@Ed-ts4bj]

So we don’t need our LORD’s Grace to earn our salvation!

[@claudecharest7018]

acts 13;48

[@branver1172]

Can you speak to the verse, “ Who can resist his will?”

[@XinyiLHBF]

@@branver1172 quite easily. If it were a battle of wills, no one can resist God’s will. But it is important to note that the verse doesn’t say that what everything happens is God’s will. Clearly from scripture God is very often disappointed with people not doing His will. The garden of Eden a perfect example God being disappointed that His will was not obeyed.

[@indigofenrir7236]

There is active will and passive will, by my definition. Active will is God exerting His power over creation, like the fish eating Jonah. Passive will is God's ideal path for man to take, which man often rejects because of his sinful nature. It is God's active will for everyone to perish because of sin; you can't say, "You know what, I have sin but I will turn myself immortal by sheer force of will." Yeah nope. It is God's passive will for you to repent.

[@believingfriend2467]

I have a question. Whatever the "locus of decision" is that causes one to choose God or not choose God. How could this "locus of decision" not be created by God if God creates all things. How can God create a being who obtains there locus of decision from a source other than God?

[@jjphank]

Is there evil in the world? God is not the author of evil, people choose what they want to eat every day. There’s your free will.

[@TheRomans9Guy]

@@believingfriend2467 If you can believe in a creator God, why is it hard for you to believe he can create beings who can make their own decisions? Surely a God that can speak into existence everything in the known universe, all the laws of physics, etc., even life itself, could create man?

[@gk.4102]

"God creates all things" does NOT entail Exhaustive Divine Determinism (EDD). It simply means that everything created was created by God. For example: God didn't create a car, so a car cannot be part of "all things". God created free creatures by giving them the ability to make their own choices and decisions. In other words, humans are NOT moist robots or puppets meticulously piloted by God; they're true intelligent, reasoning, sentient, and free beings. That shows you how unfathomable God's omnipotence truly is.

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

How do we know we have a will of our own? Because we all have our own minds.

[@shawnbrown5174]

I believe it's a definition or view of sovereignty. If you're view or presupposition is that God as the creator of all things is sovereign over all things and has set all things in time according to his will than you will lean towards Calvinism. If your view or presupposition is that God being sovereign can create free will creatures and still not have his ultimate goals thwarted by those creatures and their decisions but in using those decisions to create the circumstances and conditions that would serve his ultimate end then you will lean towards provisionism.

[@rob-1337]

A thought - 9:3 - Paul is not saying he would give up his eternal salvation to rescue ethnic Israel. I think this is a temporal / earth bound statement. 9:1 His conscience bears him witness in the Holy Spirit. There is no way any believer speaking through the Holy Sprit would say they would give up their salvation for another. 1) It would be against God for Paul to deny or deride his own salvation such that he would even think it was something he would exchange. 2) He would never presume that the realm of salvation - even metaphorically - is in his hands. 3) Salvation is entirely from God through faith in Christ, which he knows. The rest of ch9 shows this. Even Jesus' death on the cross didn't eternally separate himself from God, so why would Paul suggest he would do such a thing? When 9:3 is read temporally (Paul would die on Earth for ethnic Israel) then is moves the rest of 9 to the temporal sphere, and not the eternal.

[@jennifertallbear4480]

How is James taking the Gospel to anyone? And if they get saved is he busy sawing the legs on which we are to stand and feel secure in, nice work for who James? Confusing at best? Convoluted so much for encouragement, more about men ?

[@epw620]

I have been attending the same church for five years and just found out it is Calvinist. I spoke with the pastor and he said he was right, and recommended a book by RC Sproul. I have decided to leave the church. I am starting to attend new churches. How can I know ahead of time if the pastor is Calvinist or not?

[@Kooch2004]

You left a church because it was reformed? Yet you found 5 years later the pastor is a Calvinist but had bo problems with the doctrine he was teaching. I believe you should stay at the church you are plugged into already and listen to the Word being preached. There is no way around the sovereign choice of God, you need to submit to it.

[@AmyCRice]

@@Kooch2004 why would you recommend staying in a Calvinist church? It’s not biblical to do so!! The word says to flee from false teaching!!!

[@Kooch2004]

@@AmyCRice Calvinism is not a false teaching. Some hypercalvinist take some things too far, but it is the true representation of the Word. Rome teaches a false gospel, and when what someone believes is in line with them more than the reformers that is more concerning to me. The Bible is very clear that God is sovereign, salvation is a gift, Jesus is a perfect savior and He will complete the good work in all His elect. That is not only what true “Calvinist” believe, but every single one of His sheep believe.

[@AmyCRice]

@@Kooch2004 Calvinism is a man made theology and the person above left the church because of it and I don’t blame them nor do I understand why you would recommend for them to stay at the Calvinist church. Salvation through Jesus is free for ALL (anti Calvinism scriptures) 1 Timothy 2:1-4 Pray for All People [1] First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, [2] for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. [3] This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, [4] who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. John 3:16-18 For God So Loved the World [16] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. John 6:35-40 [35] Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. [36] But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. [37] All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. [38] For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. [39] And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. [40] For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” There’s no tulip listed above in the scriptures 2 Peter 2:1-3 False Prophets and Teachers [1] But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. [2] And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. [3] And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep. 1 John 4:1-6 Test the Spirits [1] Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. [2] By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, [3] and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. [4] Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. [5] They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. [6] We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error. It is written to follow what is written and not man made Calvinism

[@AmyCRice]

@@Kooch2004Tulip is not written in the scriptures 1 Timothy 2:1-4 Pray for All People [1] First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all people, [2] for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a peaceful and quiet life, godly and dignified in every way. [3] This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, [4] who desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. John 3:16-18 For God So Loved the World [16] “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. [18] Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. John 6:35-40 I am the bread of life [35] Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. [36] But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. [37] All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. [38] For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. [39] And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. [40] For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.” 1 John 4:1-6 Test the Spirits [1] Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. [2] By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, [3] and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already. [4] Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. [5] They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them. [6] We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error. 2 Peter 2:1-3 False Prophets and Teachers [1] But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction. [2] And many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of truth will be blasphemed. [3] And in their greed they will exploit you with false words. Their condemnation from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.

[@timboslice980]

There’s a hilarious catholic youtube channel called how to be christian. He made the same points on romans 9 in his series. You guys would LOVE his treatment of jeff durbin and james white. His video of james white bothered him so much that white made a response video! Also crushed jeff durbin on james 2, i think you guys would find it entertaining. I know theres probably few here that are interested in catholicism but we are allies in calling out the distortions of calvinism.

[@virginiahernandez1329]

CHRIST IS KING stay united CHRISTIANS . I never understood why churches who believe in JESUS dont unite but we have to in theses days. STOP CHRISTIAN DIVISION

[@ENDofREGULATION30]

At the same time, we are ordered to not endure unsound doctrine... it's an order!

[@jjphank]

Truth comes first over unity and love! Jesus is the way and the truth and the life because you can’t have true love if there’s already division and unity in love wud be bias against God & each other , There in the back of everybody’s mind!

[@suganemmenaul]

Teaching a fault doctrine is Sin. 😢

[@johnknight3529]

Thing is, anyone can say they are Christian. And they can espouse just about anything in the name of Christ. Why in the world would I commit in advance to "uniting" with anyone, preaching just about anything? "And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (you know who ; )

[@dw6528]

This statement has 2 problems: 1) It would accuse Paul of being divisive when he points out any false doctrine. For example - the church of Galatia is being influenced by false teachers who are teaching them they must be circumcised in order to be saved. Paul writes the letter to the Galatians to inform them this is a false doctrine. Per your analysis - Paul's letter to the Galatians is divisive. 2) In Calvinism - per the doctrine - no human is granted CERTAINTY of election - and a large percentage of believers are specifically created as CHAFF believers - being given a FALSE SENSE of salvation. The TRUE Christians are said to be invisible. So in Calvinism - no one knows who are Christians and who are not Christians.

[@thomascollison9879]

I believe it means Jacob have i loved and Esau have I loved less. God is love. I hold to Reformed Theology but I don't hold to Calvinism, Arminianism, Universalism or Evangelicalism. Evangelicalism is the best of a bad bunch, in terms of a doctrine of Soteriology. I hold to an unpublished 5th version of Soteriology.

[@jjphank]

God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross! Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the world, but he only had to die one time Says hebrews, so don’t get it wrong like Moses; when did Jesus die ? So this trumps predestination before the foundations of the world, because God chose to to write this to disprove & trump predestination! Revelation 13:8

[@claudecharest7018]

was it a decision of Paul to be saved , a chosen vessel of Him acts 9 ? And See acts 13;48

[@jjphank]

@@claudecharest7018 Paul said in acts 26:14 That Jesus said to him why do you kick against the goads? Why are you so hardheaded? Now he’s gonna have eye problems For The rest of his life for being stiff necked! In Romans 9:3 he says he wishes he could be cut off for the sake of Israel, his people so Paul didn’t teach Nor understand Calvinism because it’s not biblical! Paul can see that God chose him to suffer for being stiff necked, but he was a scholar in the word of God and God would use somebody else paul rejected The calling!! But Paul was zealous for truth

[@g.c.541]

A person can’t lose their salvation (John 5:24). But a believer can in fact lose their reward that is given at the Bema Seat of Christ (2 Cor. 5:10; 2 Jn. 1:8; 1 Cor. 3:14). The author of Hebrews uses Esau as an example for already saved people; exhorting them not to fall away and lose their inheritance (reward) as Esau did (Heb. 12:15-17). Which means, Esau was saved.

[@HoytRoberson]

@@g.c.541 none of your proof texts actually say what you assert they say.

[@g.c.541]

@@HoytRoberson What Bible translation are you reading from?

[@HoytRoberson]

@@g.c.541 It doesn't matter. Regardless of the version, they don't say what you need them to say.

[@g.c.541]

@@HoytRoberson You must have a reading comprehension problem. I can't help you with that.

[@grizz4489]

​@@g.c.541 Thank goodness there is someone who has a correct understanding of Hebrews. Sometimes i feel like I'm all alone.

[@HoytRoberson]

Sort of. The conflict in Paul's mind is between being an actual disciple of God on one hand and not on the other. Those not disciples may week do the things of the Law or think they have some standing because Abe is their progenitor, but they are mistaken. Paul even tries to embarrass the Jews by saying 'even Gentiles can figure out how to live as God wants!' The conflict is between being disciples and not being disciples.

[@Bigbird4000gt]

@HoytRoberson Romans 9 isn't dealing with people who were never right with God. We know this because chapter 11 explains those hardened Jews in chapter 9 used to be on the vine !

[@HoytRoberson]

@@Bigbird4000gt OK. The conflict is about discipleship, not objectively works vs faith.

[@drjcw]

If we substitute "Israel" for "Jacob," which he was renamed, ends Calvinism.

[@cherylaguilar5421]

Can you explain more?

[@jeremywolffbrandt7488]

Interesting that Paul chose "Jacob" rather than "Israel" to make his point rather than Israel comparing and Edom.

[@SheilaSmith-z8g]

"Unbelief," is not lack of knowledge, or not knowing. Unbelief is to object or reject a particular belief. It is a choice.

[@dw6528]

DW: Yes! Excellent point! And when we unpackage Calvinism what we find - is that humans are never granted choice in the matter of anything. For every human event - and every human impulse - there is never granted more than *ONE SINGLE PREDESTINED RENDERED-CERTAIN option* And man is granted NO SAY and NO CHOICE in the matter of what that option will be - and no ability to refrain.

[@SheilaSmith-z8g]

@@dw6528 Right, and yet calvinists believe in evangelism. Rather illogical to teach that humans are assigned to either heaven or hell before they are born, but we are to evngelized. For what purpose should we evangelize if the destiny of each soul is determined before before we are born?

[@dw6528]

@@SheilaSmith-z8g DW: Yes well said! They are forced to find ways to make an extremely ABNORMAL doctrine fit with the general narrative of scripture - and also to make it APPEAR NORMAL. This forces the Calvinist to assert his doctrine is TRUE while treating the doctrine *AS-IF* it is FALSE in order to retain a sense of human NORMALCY. Every Calvinist lives *AS-IF* 1) ALTERNATIVES exist within creation 2) He is granted CHOICE between those ALTERNATIVES 3) That CHOICE is *UP TO* him When the doctrine stipulates - none of those things exist. Because any ALTERNATIVE from that which is decreed would falsify the doctrine of decrees. So ALTERNATIVES do not exist for him to choose between. And if they did (which is logically impossible) he is not granted control over any impulse in his brain - sufficient to make a choice. So every Calvinist asserts the doctrine is TRUE while simultaneously treating the doctrine *AS-IF* it is FALSE The only way the Calvinist can embrace the doctrine is to live in denial of it. That is why Calvinist language is a constant stream of DOUBLE-SPEAK.

[@SheilaSmith-z8g]

@@dw6528 Amen.

[@SheilaSmith-z8g]

@h2s142 Sorry, I don't understand the meaning of what you wrote. Can you rephrase what you wrote?

[@contemplate-Matt.G]

Nearly no one is willing to equate the "hate" aspect in Rom 9:13 toward national Israel. This is exactly what Paul means and it's exactly what Malachi meant. God made a covenant with Israel but ended up hating her attempts at worship. Isa 1:13-14 Bring no more futile sacrifices; Incense is an abomination to Me. The New Moons, the Sabbaths, and the calling of assemblies--I cannot endure iniquity and the sacred meeting. Your New Moons and your appointed feasts My soul HATES; They are a trouble to Me, I am weary of bearing them. Exodus 4 22 states that Israel was God's "firstborn son" Jn 3:16 says that Jesus is God's only Son Esau, as the firstborn who lost the blessing and birthright, is Israel. Jacob, who strove with God and man and prevailed (overcame) is Jesus....the only begotten Son whom God "loves". Esau I hated and Jacob I loved simply means that the Old covenant nation of Israel is done away and the New Covenant in Christ is everlasting. This is why Paul in romans 9 equates Ishmael and Isaac, also types of Israel and Christ, to Esau and Jacob. Why do you think Paul's concluding statement is that Israel missed it while Gentiles gained it??

[@BrandonGray]

Leighton, the Pharaoh whose heart is hardened so that God can demonstrate his power refers to Israel according to the flesh. They are Egypt and Christ is the true Israel. Read Matthew and you will understand. For it is written, Out of Egypt you called my Son. Who is Egypt? It is none other than the Jews of Jesus day.

[@TheRomans9Guy]

Hey Leighton, you and I should do a video on Romans 9

[@jjphank]

God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9! God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined! Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1! Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright ! So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says ! Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue. So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8! But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“! Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try! Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross! Jesus was crucified before the foundations of the world, but he only had to die one time Says hebrews, so don’t get it wrong like Moses; when did Jesus die ? So this trumps predestination before the foundations of the world, because God chose to to write this to disprove & trump predestination! Revelation 13:8

[@TheRomans9Guy]

@@jjphank You pasted this in the wrong thread. Just thought I’d let you know, in case you were expecting a response from the person this was meant for…

[@jjphank]

@@TheRomans9Guy no, It shuts down Romans 9 & Ephesians 1 Calvinistic positions just like that! Feel free to use it

[@TheRomans9Guy]

@@jjphank So, we’re both anti-Calvinist (and you should get a copy of my book, the Anti-Calvinism Answer Key) but I’m not in agreement that your post shuts down Calvinist readings of Ephesians 1 and Romans 9. I see where you’re going, and you make 2 or 3 decent points, (some of your points are sidestepping the issues), but Calvinists are going to argue that individuals make up this groups that you’re referring to, and they will point to Paul’s repeated focus on individuals in Romans 9. Take a look at the direction I go in my book. My explanation highlights Paul’s focus on the individuals and explains to Calvinists how they’re getting their own proof texts wrong. I don’t disagree with you that there are plenty of anti-Calvinist proof texts, but to actually shut down Calvinists we need to beat them at their own proof texts. If that makes sense?

[@John3.36]

He has done many.

[@nyalltimothy]

🤍

[@lovetranquility]

Have you ever considered the clay to be a metaphor for human choice? The potter does not make the clay, as YHWH does not make humans' choices for them. The potter does mold the clay, though, as God molds our decisions into His providential purposes.

[@Kitkat0315]

I find what you are saying very interesting. I’m not sure I totally understand it, but would like to. I understand what the verse is saying but I’m interested in your thoughts on it.

[@jedispice8040]

So who made the clay?

[@lovetranquility]

@@jedispice8040 If the clay is a representation of human choice, every time we make a decision, that choice is represented by the clay (so humans would essentially "make" the clay in this metaphor because of the free will that Elohim blessed us with in the Garden of Eden)

[@lovetranquility]

@@Kitkat0315 The metaphor is a representation of human free will, and Adonai's ability to use our imperfect decisions for His perfect purpose. Does a potter actually create the clay he uses to form pottery? No. The potter obtains the material, then crafts it into a masterpiece. El Shaddai, as the potter, does not create choices made by human beings, the clay. He utilizes our will to fulfill His ultimate providence, as a potter utilizes the clay to fulfill the purpose of creating pottery.

[@Kitkat0315]

@@lovetranquility thank you.

[@suganemmenaul]

You confused me saying God also hardened their heart according to their unbelief. It’s that individually or corporately?

[@johnknight3529]

It seems unlikely to me that Leighton will answer you (though of course he might). So I suggest he was speaking of those who no longer worshipped the God of the Books (Bible), but who worshipped a watered-down version of that God, and thus failed to recognize the promised Massiah when he came as promised in the Books. There were some who still believed in that God (elsewhere referred to as the "remnant") so to say He hardened their hearts "corporately" would be too inclusive, as I read the texts. The men chosen to be our Lord's apostles would seem to me to be obvious exceptions, and there could have been many more (who would become members of the early Christian churches), so there was no good reason to harden their hearts, but just the opposite. So, I would say rather; it was the election that was "corporate" (all who believed in the Messiah that came), and the hardening that was "individual".

[@dw6528]

DW: This makes sense if one holds a definition for "hardening" as divine concurrence. The foundational core of Calvinism is EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) in which there is only *ONE* sole and exclusive *DETERMINER* for everything. So in Calvinism - in order for a "Belief" impulse to be granted existence within a human brain - that impulse must be decreed - by a decree which grants NO ALTERNATIVE from that which it decrees. Thus in Calvinism - whether a "Belief" impulse will exist in your brain or not - is infallibly *DETERMINED* solely and exclusively by Calvin's god. You are not granted a choice in the matter. Leighton rejects Calvinism's concept of divine determinism (EDD) For Leighton - each person is the *DETERMINER* of whether they will believe of not believe God desires each person's salvation and thus desires each person will choose to believe and woos them. But if they continue to reject his loving advances - then he will eventually "concur" with their choice - and give them over to what they want.

[@suganemmenaul]

@@johnknight3529 thanks. Even you’re not sure about the right answer. I’m still in confused. Because if God hardened those who did not believe then it’s not cooperative election. It’s individuals. So Calvinist right on that.

[@suganemmenaul]

@@dw6528 I don’t believe what LF hold. I see him makes errors and couldn’t answer some theological questions. So I rejected his knowledge long times ago.

[@johnknight3529]

​@@suganemmenaul - I'm aware that I'm a fallible human, so I rarely speak as if I weren't. (Unlike virtually every Calvinist I ever encountered ; ) "Because if God hardened those who did not believe then it’s not cooperative election." Very poor logic, it seems to me. Pretzel logic, as I sometimes call such things. The hardening was so Jesus would be crucified, not so none who didn't believe before he was, would ever come to believe. Context matters. It was corporate election because all who recognized Jesus was truly a man of God, were given what they needed to become convinced he was the promised Messiah (and once resurrected, that he was sacrificed for our sins, Intentionally) Not because they were individually selected to believe such things beforehand.

[@robertwheeler1158]

So in Chapter 11 Paul only hopes that the Jews will eventually respond to the gospel, out of a sense of jealousy? The eventual salvation of the Jews is not something that God foreordained?

[@johnknight3529]

I would say many, but not necessarily all. Though the term 'foreordained' can be somewhat misleading if taken to mean "individually selected before the foundation of World" as the Calvinists do, rather than rightly expected given the exposure to God's words that the Jewish people had/have so long experienced. He knew what He was doing when He "Authored" those texts, and we humans He had made in His likeness, I believe. And it's not as if He's not able to provide precision "Help" to those who have not closed their minds entirely to His ongoing beckoning. "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me."

[@robertwheeler1158]

@@johnknight3529 At the end you quoted Rev. 3:20, which is frequently quoted to picture Jesus patiently waiting outside of the sinner's heart waiting for the sinner to let Him come in. In it's context, however, it is talking about the pathetic situation in the Church of Laodicea. Christ is standing outside of the CHURCH waiting to come in!

[@dw6528]

DW: In Calvinism - per the doctrine - humans are never granted choice in the matter of anything - including whether the impulse to believe will come to pass within their brains or not. So for the Calvinist the answer would be - the impulse to believe within each Jews brain would have to be foreordained (aka decreed). However outside of Calvinism humans are granted choice In such case what would be ordained - is that each Jew would be granted a choice And that choice would be left *UP TO* each individual Jew.

[@johnknight3529]

@@robertwheeler1158 - So you were just pretending, how charming, slick ; )

[@jimtrombley3625]

How come we are debating the finer points of the work of God in salvation and not working together in unity to preach Christ and Him crucified? These type of videos do not save sinners but rather point to divisions among the disciples of Jesus Christ and not to the evidence that we are Christs disciples by our love for one another. May I encourage both the Calvinist believers and the Arminian believers to go preach the Gospel and call men and women to repentance and belief in the Gospel? The very thing Jesus Himself did! Blessings brothers (from a previous Arminian and now Calvinist-leaning fellow brother who is willing to put these debates aside for the cause of Christ and the great ministry of reconciliation that He has given us).

[@grizz4489]

I hear your frustration and also what seems like your passion for the Lord. I must say however, that sadly the vast majority of professing Christians are divided on the most important question to all of humanity. What must a person do to be saved from the lake of fire ? There is hardly any agreement at all amongst professing Christians as to the answer of this question. There are many many different answers given but only one is correct. Therefore, there are all kinds of false messages given. This is a huge problem resulting in eternal consequences. HUGE. In our churches, in gospel tracts, christian books, videos, movies , ect.... very sad.

[@jimtrombley3625]

Agree with you on that brother. There is the problem of ‘antinomianism’ or free grace (as I guess it is called) where we say ‘just pray this prayer’ - not calling the sinner to repentance and faith. Arminianist and Calvinist thinking will be resolved in heaven and may we all with one mind, determine to know nothing but Christ and Him crucified. Arminian, Calvin? Let’s walk alongside one another for the Glory of our Lord Jesus and His eternal kingdom. Blessings!

[@grizz4489]

@@jimtrombley3625 Well let's be clear, grace is free. If you have to work for it then it is not by grace. With that said, i like to look at what Jesus said in the Gospel Of John. Take for example John 3:16.... the only condition for a person to receive everlasting life and to never perish is to believe in Jesus !! There are no other conditions. No saying some prayer, no commitment of ones life, no repentance, no good works, no continuation of a certain lifestyle. According to the promise of Jesus in John3:16 , if a person wants to have everlasting life and never perish then the only condition is to believe in Jesus for everlasting life. That is the good news ! Let us pass it on. I do realize that you may disagree with that because i saw where you included repentance.

[@jimtrombley3625]

@@grizz4489 hello again brother! The grace of God is definitely free. And agree that there we do not merit, earn, or work for salvation or any special favors from God. However, I think this is where many like to leave it. The Bible clearly tells us that those who are born again, regenerated, made new, will give evidence of it by good works. James tells us this, Paul tells us this, and Jesus Himself says it. In fact it is Jesus Himself who says to repent and believe the Gospel. We of course debate whether repentance is a work or not. This is where I lean toward Calvinist thinking in that God freely regenerates us and THEN we call on the name of the Lord in repentance and faith. All His work, none of my own. And then having been born again, I can now do the works that He has prepared beforehand (Eph 2:10). But I think the main message to the world is Jesus! And His message as He came into the regions of Galilee preaching, “the kingdom of God is here, repent and believe!” Blessings today!

[@grizz4489]

@@jimtrombley3625 Consider this as i try to persuade you why i think there is a better position. The purpose of the writing of the gospel of John is to tell people how they can have everlasting life ( John 20:31 ). Jesus says " Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life." ( John 6:47 ) Notice that there is only ONE condition, and that it is for anyone/ whoever. This theme is repeated throughout John. Now compare that to ( Mark 1:14,15 ). In Mark, Jesus is speaking to the Jews, who have been waiting hundreds of years for their foretold Messiah. " The time is fulfilled and the Kingdom of God is at hand". Jesus is saying to the Jews that He is the long awaited Messiah and that He is ready to establish His Kingdom right then. He is offering the Kingdom to His chosen people. He says " Repent, and believe in the gospel." So i ask you , what gospel ( good news ) is this ?? This my friend is the gospel ( good news ) of the Kingdom ! Now i ask you, what are the conditionS to the Jewish nation in order for Jesus to establish His Kingdom ? They are to REPENT.... this is a national repentance for the Jewish nation AND to believe the good news of the Kingdom and its King ! You see, this passage has NOTHING at all to do with believing in Jesus for everlasting life.

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

Calvinists have God hating Esau before he had done any good or bad. So why do Calvinists believe God finds Esau guilty before being proven guilty? We know all men are innocent before they are born because they were created, having never known sin.

[@dw6528]

DW: Good point! This shows that human accountability is radically different in Calvinism. In Calvinism *NOTHING* is determined by the creature or the condition thereof *EVERYTHING* without exception is determined solely and exclusively by divine pleasure - including what any human will be held accountable for. A new-born baby can be born today - and Calvin's god can hold that baby "worthy" of being cast into the fire of Moloch - and then after that being cast into eternal torment in a lake of fire - for no other reason than his good pleasure. John Calvin explains --quote by the eternal *GOOD PLEASURE* of god though the reason does not appear, they are *NOT FOUND* but *MADE* worthy of destruction. - (Concerning the Eternal Predestination of god pg 121)

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

@dw6528 Desgusting, bro. They turn God into that which He hates. He is no respecter of persons, whether you are elected or Gentile. We are all judged with the same judgment, which is disobedience. See, if I punished my children before they did any wrong, I would be a monster?

[@dw6528]

@@kgar5String DW: The fact that Calvin wasn't born at the time of the writing of scripture ignores the fact that Calvinists go to great lengths employing STEALTH means -to indoctrinate unsuspecting Bible readers - in order to manipulate the mind into reading Calvinistic concepts into the text - while totally oblivious to how the mind has been affected. Cult experts call it GROUP-THINK. This also applies to your other post on hating Esau. Blessings!

[@MyRoBeRtBaKeR]

@kgar5String First off, no one knows who you are, but we do know who Calvin is. Therefore, you will always be a Calvinst. He hated you to bro, yet are you not beloved by Him now? Furthermore, no where does it say God hated anyone, nit even Esau before he was ever born, that's where you serve another god, rather than the Gid we all know and love. You are unlearned, born in sin, which is born in the body of sin, this body of death. Your soul is not dead until you sin. But hallelujah, blessed is the man that He will not impute sin, hallelujah the gift of God is eternal life. The hate for Esau was not until He could not find a place of repentance. Remember, God allowed all to go their way, but when He calls you to repent, you will either accept and love Him or reject and hate Him first. It was when Esau rejected God when God could not accept Him and, as a result, His wrath abode on him and hate the result of Esau's dosobediemce.

[@dw6528]

@@MyRoBeRtBaKeR MyRoBe: are you not beloved by Him now? DW: There are elements of divine evil within Calvinism - which current day Calvinists internally find terrifying. And in most cases total-denial and/or resolute blindness are the Calvinist's emotional response. One particular element of the doctrine which terrifies the Calvinist - is the "Divine Deception of the Believer" which is a critical component of the doctrine. Per the doctrine - the preponderance of the Calvinist population are specifically created as vessels of destruction - destined for eternal torment in the lake of fire - for his good pleasure. These are called CHAFF believers - whom Calvin's god deceives - giving them a FALSE SENSE of salvation. John Calvin -quote But the Lord....instills into their minds such *A SENSE* ..as can be felt without the Spirit of adoption. (Institutes 3.2.11) -quote He illumines *ONLY FOR A TIME* to partake of it; then he....strikes them with even greater blindness (Institutes 3.24.8) Consequently - (to your question) no Calvinist is granted any CERTAINTY of election. And the probability is - Calvin's god created them for the purpose of hating them and taking pleasure in their eternal torment. So that would be the TRUTHFUL answer to your question to any Calvinist. But you can understand why Calvinists would be internally terrified by that aspect of the doctrine - and live in denial. They claim the doctrine gives them a sense of assurance - but what they HIDE is the fact that they are granted no way of knowing if the assurance they have been given is an infallibly decreed FALSE assurance. Blessings!

[@francmittelo6731]

If this explanation is true, the your God is not omnipotent. Christians, you cannot have your cake and eat it. Either God has an ALL powerful will, and the chain of cause and effect is going EXACTLY as God planned or God is not all powerful, and other wills can break the chain of cause and effect, which forces God to change Its plans. If God is ALL powerful, then Calvinism makes more sense. Everything is as God wants it to be. Human free will does not supersede or impact God's free will.

[@southernpatriot6169]

@francmittelo6731...You're not grasping the fact that God can give us free will AND at the same time be completely sovereign!

[@francmittelo6731]

@@southernpatriot6169 ".You're not grasping the fact that God can give us free will AND at the same time be completely sovereign!" --- Because a contradiction cannot be a fact. --- If God's will is for me to go Heaven, then explain how my will can overpower God's will?

[@southernpatriot6169]

@@francmittelo6731 I know it's hard for you to understand. Either ask God to illuminate your mind or have someone explain it to you.

[@francmittelo6731]

@@southernpatriot6169 "I know it's hard for you to understand." ---- Not being able to understand illogical claims is commendable. "Either ask God to illuminate your mind or have someone explain it to you." ---- It seems like every time God "illuminates" a person's mind either a new denomination is created or a new religion is born. ---- So, the question is how can we know when God has "illuminated" a person versus when a person is just making up Its own ideas? In other words, who is the most "illuminated" among Catholics, Orthodox and the other 100s of Protestant denominations? ---- I guess the religion that you subscribe to is the right one and everybody else is wrong. LOL --- For human being with sufficient physical and psychological ability, a true religion should be as easy to understand and follow as buying a DIY furniture from IKEA, following all the instructions, and assembling the furniture as it was intended to be assembled, without any need for confusing "interpretations," outdated "context," PhDs in ancient languages and all the other excuses you believers make to rationalize why your God is unable to clearly communicate with its creatures.

[@Kman.]

God, being *_ALLLL_* powerful, is THEN able to do as He wishes. Affording man the opportunity to trust & reach out to Him in faith as a result of the Holy Spirit convincing men of their sin would then be one of the aspects of His omnipotence, & clearly falls under the category of Sovereignty.

[@kevinrtres]

No matter what Leighton says - there's no escaping the real issue: God is sovereign and GOD CHOOSES. Period. Where is all the provisionist dogma to be found in the bible?

[@Kman.]

"Sovereign"...this is _THEE_ buzz word for Calvinists, no doubt. If God IS sovereign (He is), then He could allow people *FREE* choice...which He does~:) *MARANATHA!*

[@ben.duffour]

@@Kman. where do we have your definition of “sovereign” in the Bible?

[@Kman.]

@@ben.duffour You ASSUME God can't be "sovereign", or be LESS sovereign (oxymoron), should HE choose to allow _US_ freedom of choice, but are you not limiting God in suggesting that He *CANNOT* be sovereign should He allow free choice? Me thinks you are. While we may have some of the same vocabulary, we're reading from different dictionaries. All the best to you Ben, & *MARANATHA!*

[@ben.duffour]

@@Kman. you realise you’re the one making an assumption of what exactly Sovereignty is? He allows choice, but that choice has been proven time and time again from scripture, to be bound by sin. Jesus calls everyone who sins a slave to sin ,in John 8. Unless you don’t believe Jesus is God, His words hold weight in this discussion. I’d suggest you rewatch Prof. Flower’s debate with Dr White on Romans 9 without any presuppositions ,and you’d see just how poorly the text was exegeted but the former.

[@ENDofREGULATION30]

First like.... 😂

[@robertmcvicar5824]

God showed his hatred for Esau by leaving him to be Esau. At the same time blessing him in material things. And let's not forget he was sinner in Adam. So was Jacob but God never left him to be Jacob but changed him into Israel. This is why through much tribulation we must enter the kingdom. It's a mark of our election.

[@kevinrtres]

Leighton is talking nonsense that isn't in the bible. Esau is never shown as one who repented, therefore Esau could not have been saved. To the contrary, Esau deliberately went and married women that were outside of his father's recommendation. Genesis 28:6 Now Esau learned that Isaac had blessed Jacob and had sent him to Paddan Aram to take a wife from there, and that when he blessed him he commanded him, “Do not marry a Canaanite woman,” 8 Esau then realized how displeasing the Canaanite women were to his father Isaac; 9 so he went to Ishmael and married Mahalath, the sister of Nebaioth and daughter of Ishmael son of Abraham, in addition to the wives he already had. Tell me again that that is the character of a man who would repent of his sins. Esau is NOT named among those who are called saints in Hebrews. Don't spin with ideas and words, Leighton.

[@tylerjohnson153]

Is Calvinism all you talk about? Give it a rest man

[@calebcrawford2520]

I found the Calvinist.

[@tylerjohnson153]

@@calebcrawford2520 There are so many other areas of Scripture to talk about and study. Don’t be a one stringed banjo.