2024 Paladin Subclass Tier Ranking for D&D 5e

[@chazstafford7135]

One thing to note on the Devotion subclass. Cover gives a +2bonus to AC against all attacks, not just ranged. And Cover gives the same +2 bonus to Dex saves, which I feel like everyone always forgets

[@bringitonbatman]

Hi charisma paladin with shield master says hello 😂

[@j.f.5162]

Right back at you! 🙌 ​@@bringitonbatman

[@j.f.5162]

2024 devotion paladin with High Cha and shield master is really fun!

[@CarloPeano]

@@j.f.5162Yes, that’s what I am using in the Vecna campaign and is very strong and always hits.

[@nathans9764]

Devotion is maybe up to an A-, but it does provide a nice synergy: the CHA to attack rollls makes charisma more valuable, which benefits your aura of protection, spell save DC, and even your con saves.

[@simonjernsletten5207]

Yeah, I feel like it's giving an argument for prioritizing CHA over STR (or DEX, if you lean that way), which is great. I might even consider dropping STR lower, to balance out the other stats (especially CON).... But personally, I'm with the Dudes in that I'm more likely to play an Ancients (for the flavour) or Vengeance (for obvious reasons) anyway. Still a point to take into consideration, in favour of the Devotion pally.

[@bringitonbatman]

Devotion Pal never needs more than 16 Str, and focusing on Chr means your aura and spells will actually matter. Any of the Charisma feats are fantastic on this subclass. Definitely an A

[@dabeef2112]

Advantage is easy to come by in 2024. This makes Vow of Enmity less valuable than the dudes think. Sacred Weapon's +CHA bonus to the attack roll stacks with advantage and last 10 minutes instead of one, IMHO it's much more powerful. This is especially true if your group uses flanking and/or dungeon crawls. Oath of Devotion Paladin's rarely, if ever, miss. I know you assume single class with rankings, I do that as well, but taking 1 level in Warlock to get pact of the blade is soooo good with OoD.

[@christophernazon7279]

Since 2024 is backwards compatible you don’t even need to multi class warlock, just take the feat that gives you an eldritch invocation and take pact of the blade. But ya they are definitely underselling the channel divinity here, it’s better than vow of enmity especially since it is more effective when fighting multiple foes that you may need to split your focus around to keep your party members alive. And shield of faith is a great place to use your concentration especially at lower levels. A sword and shield paladin of devotion can literally have the highest attack and defense in the game when it wants to by activating channel divinity and shield of faith.

[@nikcantsnipe]

They're also forgetting half cover is also +2 to dex saves.

[@binolombardi]

devotion paladin allows for several beneficial factors to take into account. 1. Allows for further investment into charisma to boost your saves, checks, and spellcasting DC without reducing your martial efficacy. 2. The increase in accuracy with Cha mod to attacks stacks with outside sources of advantage. 3. Making yourself and other party members immune to charm allows for spells like hypnotic pattern to be cast with impunity by your party since they will be safe from those effects, regardless of how many badly the combat is going. 4. Changing the weapons damage type will bypass resistances and immunity to further ensure good damage. 5. The light produced can be beneficial to characters without dark vision. Maybe not as relevant in 2024, but still a benefit to be made.

[@valerius88]

Re Oath of Ancients: The more I think about it, the more I like having your Level 5 spells be useful out of combat spells. If I'm out of combat, I'm having fun with Tree Stride. If I'm in combat, it's Smite-O'-Clock somewhere, and that somewhere is here and now.

[@noahseus3665]

Ancients will be the Paladin I play next. Vengeance just feels like a cheat code to me at this point💀

[@rcschmidt668]

“I am here to do 2 things, chew bubblegum and smite, and I am out of bubblegum!” 😂

[@theresnoracelikegnome]

Monty staring at Kelly when he started ranting about icing flowers was delightful. 😂

[@masterofstacking5638]

One caution about Haste on Paladins, your auras temporarily deactivate when Haste ends on you keep that in mind if you really need your aura up in a fight

[@Sirfinchyyy]

The partial round where you're recovering negates your aura? This might be a poor interpretation, but i see the aura as beeing active unless you get knocked out, 0 hp kind of thing.

[@grantgarbour]

​@@Sirfinchyyy It's not poor, it's misinformed. The Paladin's Aura is deactivated when they are incapacitated and in the new rules when Haste ends on a target they are Incapacitated. So you would be right in 2014

[@masterofstacking5638]

@@Sirfinchyyy The new Haste says when the spell ends you have the incapacitated condition until the end of your next turn and your auras are disabled while you’re incapacitated. It’s a short and niche situation but if your aura is making a significant impact at the moment then Haste has an additional potential drawback if it drops early

[@Mardshima89]

If you already has access to spell storing ring, now you can give your Haste to somebody else like spellcaster who didn't have access to Haste or Sorcerer who now doesn't need to preparing Haste.

[@TigerW0lf]

As someone who has fought bosses that fly TWICE as a Paladin with no viable range options, they are really underselling the usefulness of Guiding Bolt.

[@SortKaffe]

Smite spells work with thrown weapons now

[@TigerW0lf]

@SortKaffe not if you are playing with '14 rules like my party is

[@SymbioteMullet]

Having played a flying paladin vs flying enemies with no viable range options, I completely agree.

[@lpjdrummer12295]

​@TigerW0lf but these are the 2024 Paladin subclasses, and they aren't compatible with 2014 Paladins.

[@Sirfinchyyy]

Ehhh, it's not as effective, but a grappling hook, or even getting tossed by another player, would do just about the same, more than GB if you get into melee range.

[@andrewmcmillan229]

I like devotion’s channel divinity more than vengeance, because the bonus to attacks from charisma stacks with other sources of advantage.

[@AdamBlatt-ix7vm]

However, paladins do benefit much more from crits then attack bonus. Smite, divine favor, and hunters mark all want juicy crits.

[@BronCral]

​​@@AdamBlatt-ix7vm That is definitely true, but with 2024 now making Find Steed a class feature, all you need is the Mounted Combatant feat and you will always have advantage against creatures smaller than your mount. This makes the attack bonus much better than free advantage against 1 creature at a time. The bonus applies to whoever you attack for 1 minute. Still salty about Eleven Accuracy not being added into 2024 though. No more rerolling 1 advantage die.

[@glimftw7255]

​@@BronCralnot only mount, but vex and topple masteries. 2 advantages and 1 disadvantage means vengeance attacks normally. Devo will have a boost. Devo will not lose the use of CD and maybe have it for second fight even. With Vengeace you have to hope enemies are in range and you will beg teammates not to kill multiple monsters :D Another thing WotC pulled their head of of their asses and invisibility condition doesn't give adv/disadv when the target can see you. That's new in 2024. Two Handed devo can afford to take blind fighting without DPR loss compared to DW. But anyway we're at DD's channel they gave 2014 Vengeance S despite it being like B or C in non-tutorial difficulty games. Watcher's Aura or Crown's SG are obviously better in serious games. Vengeance is still retard magnet, better than 2014, but still a retard magnet.

[@dallinadams9422]

The nice thing about having a bad spell list is that it saves more spell slots for smites.

[@radiantphoenix_5147]

I would definitely house rule that any ability that says "when you cast divine smite" it works for any smite spell. But I really do wonder how the designers turn up vengeance to 13 and then they act like if they give any of the other classes anything good it's going to be overpowered.

[@Sirfinchyyy]

IKR? Someone loves the Vengeance Pally more than the others😂.

[@Sharkpride808]

Doesn’t the Paladin get free castings of Divine Smite

[@AnaseSkyrider]

@@Sharkpride808 One. At its lowest level. Per day.

[@MinariCapore]

The other subclasses are sort of all over the place, whereas the Vengeance Paladin is focused on killing things

[@richardrdotson]

It’s almost like the people that own this game don’t love it like the people that play it.

[@DeadmanwalkingXI]

I'm not gonna argue Glory being the weakest (though I think it may be more B than C), but I think you're seriously undervaluing Devotion Paladins here. Their spell list is worse than Vengeance or Ancients, sure, and they can't do TWF very well, but adding Charisma to all your attacks is absolutely absurd and, unlike Oath of Vengeance's free advantage, stacks with sources of advantage like Topple or Vex or allies with things like Guiding Bolt, which makes it kind of ridiculous, and immunity to charms is also great. Are the S-rank? Maybe not, but they're definitely at least A if you're gonna say Ancients and Vengeance are on that level. Better spell lists are nice, but a lot of your spells are probably gonna be Smites anyway, so it matters less for a Paladin than it would for a lot of classes.

[@lukemartineau490]

YES, EXACTLY!! You'll be smiting a lot as a Paladin, so while I think the spell list is valuable, I think they gave it a little too much weight

[@andrewmcmillan229]

I think you might be underestimating how good a devotion paladin is at dual wielding. It’s true you can only make 1 weapon your +cha weapon, but most dual wielders are going to be using 1 Nick weapon and 1 vex weapon. So even though you won’t get the +charisma to the Nick weapon, it will still have advantage.

[@DeadmanwalkingXI]

​@@andrewmcmillan229 Fair enough. A lot of the advantage of Devotion over Vengeance is that you can combine +Cha with Advantage, though, and that sorta loses that particular combo. It's not bad, but it's less than ideal. TWF is a pretty specific build anyway, though. Not a bad one, but specific and in the minority of Paladins.

[@kairos3855]

One thing I think could be really cool for you guys to do after all these 2024 class guides/subclass tierlist videos are done is to make a video looking over the non-updated subclasses and talking about the ones that, due the base class or other rules changes, should be "re-tiered."

[@e443productions9]

Oh yeah for sure!

[@rcschmidt668]

A before and after tier rank would be great!

[@sethchambers4330]

Playing an Oath of Devotion in Chain of Asmodeus rn...you cannot overstate the added accuracy from Sacred Weapon. Simply put, *you do not miss*. I'm using a warhammer + shield master feat. Between the push and conditions from smites, I always feel like I have control on the battlefield.

[@leodouskyron5671]

Devotion is an “A”. I agree that it is nice to have more spells you normally can’t have but the close second for me is the spells you want from your own list so you can play around a bit. Also, the aura is the big thing you want to get up but normally is cost you and since advantage is basically +5 you can get the effect of advantage while pumping up your aura. Just me.

[@pocketmonster6437]

Plus being able to make your attacks do radiant damage is nice for bypassing resistance as well.

[@Koranthus]

Yeah i would prbly put Vengeance, Devotion and Ancients in A and Glory in C. They are overselling a subclass with no function outside combat and always on advantage is nice but with weapon masteries, its much easier to get advantage, its much more difficult to get +4 to hit and advantage and radiant damage. Also seem to put weight on Vengeance's 15 and 20 abilities even though they really didn't for the other 3.

[@TeutonicKnight92]

My favorite Paladin I played was a Eladrin Oath of Ancients Paladin sworn to the Queen of the Winter Court of the Fae. My mission for that campaign was I was hunting a wizard who reneged on a pact with Queen Mab and had to join the party because he had turned himself into a Lich who was terrorizing a local kingdom. It was a very fun campaign and at the end I managed to convince the party to let me take his phylactery back to the Winter Queen.

[@chazstafford7135]

22:31 at this level Fighters can also use a d8 to not spend their dice. So they can bait and switch with a d8 without any limit

[@nathans9764]

@@chazstafford7135 True, but if you do that, you're forgoing an offensive maneuver. You get the free d8 once per turn as a fighter. Either you use it offensively for free, or you have to spend to use an offensive. Glorious defense does both, which would be similar to a fighter using the free d8 for bait and switch, and then using another maneuver or a riposte. The d8 gives 4.5 AC on average, glorious defense likely 3 or 4. Slightly lower but less swingy. Then a full fledged attack, dealing weapon damage + str + 1d8 (radiant strikes), which is pretty solid. I think the limit is harsher and makes it a B tier ability, but it's certainly not trash by itself.

[@End3r97]

yeah and they can also use it as a reaction with either parry (add to AC) or Riposte (retaliate on a miss with extra damage) and thats free outside of their reaction and they can do it every round forever. Not *quite* as good as giving the AC boost AND the reaction attack with the same reaction, but its pretty crazy doing it every round forever.

[@silverjohn6037]

I think the assumption that the Oath of Vengeance Paladin has to be a murderous psychopath is fundamentally wrong. Batman is unquestionably a Vengeance paladin (with a few levels in Rogue) but he still has the no kill rule. And, as Red from OSP puts it, "If you aren't writing a Batman that can comfort a small child you're just writing the Punisher in a silly hat."

[@nathans9764]

I think people feel pigeonholed by the "show no mercy" tenet of Vengeance. Batman's no kill rule is definitely showing mercy.

[@silverjohn6037]

@@nathans9764 I'd disagree as "show" no mercy doesn't necessarily imply having none. If people think you're a unfeeling killing machine it would have the same deterrent effect as being one. This is why Batman is more effective in an interrogation than Superman. If Superman plays the bad cop people would go "This is so cool Superman is playing the bad cop. I wonder if I could get an autograph for my little brother when he's done." If Batman plays the bad cop people are thinking, "Oh crap. Is my health and dental insurance paid up?"

[@nathans9764]

@@silverjohn6037I agree with you that they don't need to be mindless killing machines, or even edgelords. I just mean that the flavor text isn't doing this perception any favors. It was more extreme in 2014, where tenets 2 and 3 talked about being merciless and exterminating enemies. That's had 10 years to permeate people's view of the subclass.

[@Subject_Keter]

For me, I think a vengeance paladin would be focused on defeating the target and dragging them back to be judged. Like the main "hero" character for my non dnd story is based around Domination... of the bad guys. She is a horrible person who will terrorify, stalk and degrade the bad guys into submission but she doesnt kill them, she believes it isnt her point to kill them and she gladly would hurt herself x7 to make the guilty surrender and admit defeat. She would be the tank but debuffing and crushing the foes body while debunking their plans to make them submit. Also i think people should look up the Paladins in Warcraft, Trition "could" be a vengence paladin but he was for Order and the Light, a man so steady and righteous when he died the Light escorted him away.

[@bluetaylor7614]

Some players are bigger murder hobos than the Punisher in the comics. At least he protects the innocent-there’s even a story where he thought he accidentally killed a kid with a stray bullet and almost took his own life over it.

[@rukathekid7853]

Interesting to see how different their opinion diverges from Treantmonk

[@jonahpeacock2561]

I would love to see a debate the next time they get together.

[@Matiargentino100]

Treantmonk is more about numbers, he doesn't really take in consideration how it feels or how fun it is, Monty and Kelly are more about how fun and how good it feels to play

[@leodouskyron5671]

@@Matiargentino100it is the spells and spell effects for Monty and if you show him a good spell list he is happy almost no matter what.

[@Mardshima89]

Treantmonk is very combat focused which is okay but group who run lots of social encounter might not agree with his opinion, such as rating 2014 Athlete feat above Actor feat.

[@jeffreyjay2899]

Some of the online reviews disagree strongly on subclasses and on spells. It's very subjective.

[@adampetno3136]

I definitely think that Devotion is at least an A on the back of how powerful it is to be able to essentially build a single-ability dependent paladin without needing to multiclass. At the cost of a minimal amount of damage per hit, a Devotion paladin gets more points in one of the best utility stats, an INSANE hit chance, higher spell save DC, and an easier time maximizing the absurdly powerful aura of protection, plus they can benefit from other sources of advantage like shining smite, topple, mounted combatant, or vex. They might be slightly limited because they aren't optimal dual wielders, but if you want to make a shield or great weapon paladin I really just don't think the other subclasses compare. As for the spell list, I don't think the quality is bad. You play devotion paladin because you want to be the most paladiny paladin, and they get some excellent spells with will let you play around with the rest of the paladin list.

[@armphidiic2609]

So this may be a nitpick because I agree that Oath of Glory is the weakest (should have taken Oath of Watchers from Tasha's instead), but why was Haste not good on the Oath of Glory's spell list but it's awesome on Oath of Vengeance? It was said that concentrating on Bless was better than Haste for OoG but it's not for OoV?

[@nathans9764]

Indeed, haste's movement buff also stacks with Glory's aura of alacrity. You have an 80 move when hasted instead of 60.

[@Koranthus]

because DD have a biased favorite in most of their tier lists, they did the same thing with Moon Druid for example. They have one favorite that they view as only having good features even though other subclasses may have similar features or spells, and coincidentally their choice always seems to be the Damage dealer/combat only subclasses. The subclasses with any versatility are usually ranked lower than the pure combat ones for the most part.

[@connormacdonald3061]

​@@Koranthusalso see their wildly hated swords bard take.

[@buchor9455]

Had a fantastic time playing a Triton Oath of Vengeance Paladin in my Avernus campaign. Fun ways to be a tanky damage dealer while also providing some great buffs to the rest of the party.

[@lukemartineau490]

I know Oath of Glory isn't the strongest, BUT... hear me out. One of the gripes against the Oath of Ancients Channel Divinity was that it used an entire action to use, and one of the suggestions Monty presented was, "I would love it if the vines would happen when you attack." That's EXACTLY what the Oath of Glory's Channel Divinity does! If you or an ally gets hurt, you don't have to stop attacking to heal, just Divine Smite and give them a big "Cure Wounds" with your Channel Divinity. AND, Divine Smite is freely prepared and can be cast once without spending a spell slot, so you'll have at least one temp HP use per day, more if you want to use slots. And yes, you can use the Inspiring Leader feature to give everyone more temp HP, but then imagine how much MORE durable you'll make the team by healing them BEFORE combat and DURING combat as needed. I dunno, I just think Glory isn't a C because the Channel Divinity, while limited, is easier to use

[@jseigle_]

Also, the flavor of the Glory Paladin is amazing

[@CBG232x5]

RE Oath of Glory/Inspiring Smite 16:04 : This ability triggers as part of a divine smite, not a replacement, which makes a big difference in its evaluation.

[@joselocombi6127]

B tier then

[@Mardshima89]

They understand it just as you said. It just to activate it you need to spend another resource other than your Channel Divinity, and it need to be Divine Smite as well not other Smite spell.

[@pgb8000]

But a paladin is probably smiting anyway. If it was activated on a bonus action via channel divinity it would be worse as it would stop you smiting!

[@bisonbob9092]

I'm not so sure Vengeance is dramatically mechanically superior to Devotion. Re: the spells: Hunters Mark is concentration and really stresses your paladin BA economy. Spending your action to try Bane, Hold Person / Monster with your lower DC possibly won't work on the things that are important. Is Vengeance advantage better than the Devotion straight CHA boost to attack? I'd say it isn't. Given there are now heaps of ways to get advantage in 2024 (topple, etc) at least some of the time a Devotion will be hitting with both advantage and the CHA boost. However: Misty Step Dimension Door are awesome, and I think that does tip Vengeance to be better.

[@dakkon74]

And Devotions feature lasts 10min, vs 1min for Vengeance.

[@dabeef2112]

100% agree. Advantage is easy to come by in 2024. Adding your CHA to your attack is better because it stacks with advantage and it last 10 min instead of only 1 which is huge in dungeon crawls. Sacred Weapon is wayyyyyy better than Vow of Enmity. Also, haste cast by a Paladin is overrated. With the new rules you lose your aura if you are incapacitated and when you lose your concentration on haste you are incapacitated. So not only do you lose your next turn but bye bye aura!

[@gengar618]

Not wanting to give Ancients an A because of the bias for how good the purely combat Vengeance is, is just wild to me

[@MrsAjergirl]

Monty has such a one-track mind, he makes some truly baffling decisions about things

[@Zagrakhen]

For a point of reference, this is what Kelly and Monty gave to the D&D 5e 2014 Paladin subclasses : Oath of Devotion : B Oath of Glory : B Oath of the Ancients : A Oath of Vengeance : S

[@theonlymatthew.l]

They rated Oath of Glory at a 'C' tier

[@Zagrakhen]

@@theonlymatthew.l Not in 2014, but they slightly changed their ranking system since then.

[@Koranthus]

So they were wrong twice, interesting

[@MrFinalMax]

So I went into this knowing that Oath of Vengeance was going to be looked at with the rosiest of tinted glasses. And there's a very good reason. It is effectively a different class than Paladin, because it is. It originated from 4th Edition's Avenger class, which was a lightly armored, single target divine blender. And when 5th Edition came out, they basically ported the Avenger class as a subclass of Paladin. And the 2024 rules actively buffed the defining feature in the Oath of Enmity. Further cementing that a Vengeance Paladin is an entirely different class. So knowing this, I'd say that Oath of Vengeance is at best an A tier subclass. Everything is dedicated to the goal of single target devastation. The level 7 feature completely eschews the Paladin Aura for basically another feat. It has effectively broken the oath of paladin subclass design, in which the level 7 feature normally improves the Aura of Protection. So by the rules of their own grading system, that single target focus shouldn't make it an S tier. In looking at the subclasses themselves, I notice something interesting. Devotion is a toolbox Paladin build. It's good at a lot of little things, but not everything. Beacon of Hope makes it also the best healing support of them. Glory is a physical Paladin build. Peerless Athlete has both exploration and social uses under the right conditions. The spell list also gives the Paladin a rare ranged option. And Ancients is very close to being one of the best generalist characters you could build. It has durability, crowd control, wilderness exploration and social tools, etc.

[@nikcantsnipe]

Not first but probably third. Paladins are great. Vengeance Paladin looks really good. So does Devotion. While Glory is fun, it is probably the weakest, even though the aura of warding got nerfed.

[@AwesomeWookiee]

How I would fix every subclass: Devotion: Change out half the spell list for things like Alarm, Sanctuary, Spiritual Weapon, Jellarzis Storm of Radiance. 7th: Give half cover to everyone in your Aura as well as Charm immunity. 15th: Replace the feature with "Lay on Hands has a range of 30 feet." or something that's Paladiny and also a bit Clericy. Glory: 3rd: Replace Compulsion with Charm Monster. Change the Channel Divinity to use a bonus action, and/or as part of the bonus action you take to cast a spell. 7th: And your speed can't be reduced. 15th: No limit on the number of uses, and it adds the AC bonus for the whole round. Ancients: 3rd: Channel Divinity takes an action to break out of, OR, it takes a binus action to throw down. 7th: Deal Charisma Force damage back to anyone that deals Rad/Necro/Psy to anyone in your aura. Vengeance: 7th: You can also make opportunity attacks to anyone that leaves your aura, and your weapon flies out at them and returns to you.

[@jrf185]

Oath of Glory seems solid B to me. Good in almost all situations, great in a rare few

[@jeffreyjay2899]

I thought the Devotion Paladin was drab but after you guys explained it, I think it's interesting for role play and very strong in some campaigns. If you are facing Fey and creatures and enemies that rely on charm effects, like an Enchanter Wizard, this subclass can save your party and make otherwise extremely difficult encounters trivial.

[@bretgregersen9826]

I ran a game for a vengeance paladin 2014. It was just nuts then and it's so much better now. The misty step on the dragon thing absolutely happened in my game as well and it was awesome!

[@palid11]

But Vengeance Paladin is not angry! he's not vengeful! He is actually only just and righteous - he simply delivers Divine Justice and Righteous Retribution to evildoers 😁 There, you can now play Vengeance Paladin, Kelly. You're welcome 🙂

[@HitdieHobgoblin]

You guys are glazing vengeance super hard here. It is the best subclass, but not nearly as much as you're saying. Saying they're better at cc or defensive utility than the others is an absolutely wild take. It's sticky and high damage, but that is kinda it. I'll grant you Hold monster, but that is deep in high levels,and hold person is situational.

[@rekcroom]

While the Vengeance Paladin is flavored as being a jerk, I don’t think it HAS to be. You can always reflavor. Kelly could make a character that is a great person but an even better fighter.

[@dallinadams9422]

Oath of Vengeance is great, all of their abilities add together, you are essentially gaining an extra attack from your reaction and then there just isn't any escape for them. Also, there is no difficulty in reflavoring paladin oaths. Vengeance doesn't necessarily have to be angry and vengeful. It could be as simple as trying to find justice for a certain wrong. Don't discount cool subclasses because they don't fit at first to the character. DnD is customizable and you can reflavor it however you want.

[@pgb8000]

You only gain an extra attack as a reaction if they run away without disengaging. I'm a DM. It's very rare my monsters do this. If they are running, they are all in, and use their action to disengage. For me, this L7 Vengeance ability seems borderline useless. (This isn's Sentinel. Disengage still works!)

[@nickmillar999]

Another point to the Oath of Ancients; between your Aura of Warding, Protection from Energy, and Stoneskin, by level 13 you can provide yourself and/or a party member with resistance to just about ANY damage type (except force). Yes, it may require your concentration, but that's some versatility few characters will have access to without having to choose to take the required spells. You get it all just from investing in your subclass

[@briandarnell1195]

Oath of ancients: Additionally, you can’t be aged magically, and you cease visibly aging.

[@etherd]

Very good video. I appreciate the part at the end where you say still play whatever paladin you want. A bit of a bummer that one subclass is so head and shoulders over the others but o well.

[@mattmartin326]

Oath spells that they already have access to but are always prepared have more weight for me, especially when they are situational utility spells. Every paladin wants to prep zone of truth but they hardly ever will unless they know they will need it. Have it always prepped is gold for me.

[@Eagle52525]

You guys touch some thing again today that I think is a really phenomenal potential alternate class for both the Ranger and the paladin. I love the idea of the pin, leaning into the various type of smite spells and having their class features work with it. I also love the idea of the Ranger having a variety of different Mark spells. And with the new rules, making it more difficult to grab Ranger and paladin spells a class built around that idea is much more feasible, compared to previously where say the bard could magical secrets, paladin, and Ranger spells.

[@benjohnson1419]

As they were discussing going from an ancients paladin to vengeance, it reminded me so much of treebeard in LOR. When he sees the devastated forest and the switch flips.

[@samuelnewnes8609]

Something important to remember is that advantage on attacks is really easy to come by now, so the Vengeance channel divinity is not as good as it sounds

[@aloisweber4684]

I wonder if thinking about the Vengeance Paladin as a Hunter, Inquisitor, or Eradicator Pally might help? Something less "I have a vendetta" and more "I seek and hunt evil". Personally, that interpretation opens the subclass up to more narrative uses than "I am hate you.".

[@alstaniforth]

Another problem with Glory is that at 20th level the save reroll requires a reaction; so if you do that you can’t do your glorious defence that round.

[@JumpyWizard00]

Great Video as always dudes! Would you be able to take a look at the new Illrigger on DnD Beyond? I'd love to hear your thoughts on where it stands and how the subclasses fair!

[@tommy6691]

In defense of the Glory Paladin: - The Channel Divinity Temp HP feature can key off of the free use of divine smite thanks to the Paladin’s Smite feature - The Spell list provides much greater variety/flexibility than Oath of Devotion - The 15th level feature can also increase damage via reaction attacks, making it strictly better than a feature that only increases defense, as well as not costing any spell slots.

[@mammonclarke]

The 5e Vengeance Paladin is the one character in 41 years of playing D&D that I took from level 1 to 20. All the way through a 2 year campaign of Curse of Strahd and way beyond. He is still and will always be my favorite character I have played. The vengeance subclass opens upnthenclass like no other. You don't have to be the total goodie two shoes thatbis the paladin sterotype. Vengeance lets you add a bit of mean badass to the class like no other, while still staying lawful good in alignment.

[@michaelrnahas4425]

Oath of Vengeance: No mercy, no redemption, and no quarter, and by my wrath, the wicked shall be punished. My vengence is absolute.

[@MrJackolicious]

I think the level 15 and 20 features are just tragically out of normal play range. I think they should have moved them to like 10/11 and 14/16 or something in the new edition.

[@ArgoVaughn]

A high level Oath of Vengeance Paladin would make a great villain. Basically you have an It Follows type enemy that tracks your group down periodically though out the campaign and you have skirmishes with it and have to flee every time until your group is leveled up enough to finally fight back and defeat the terror.

[@KnicKnac]

I just finished playing an Oath of Glory 2014 paladin. I got great mileage out of inspirational smite and peerless athletic. Obviously newer rules lowered the use of the abilities, but it is still fun. Glory is more aimed at being utility frontliner. You are the support tank.

[@hikohunter7897]

I know I'm late... 2024 has the new things... but I beg of thee Dudes consider the Steinhardts Guide to the Eldritch Hunt. There is so many cool subclasses and I would love to hear how you thing they balance with other things! Besides that thanks for the video! I'm playing a Vengeance Paladin/Hexblade Warlock (I think it works well(Maybe its going to be too well based on what you said) Space marine in a 40k campaign and loved to hear you guys talk about it. Apparently I chose the right subclass.

[@richardrdotson]

You guys hit the nail on the head: action economy resource. A PC can only do so much in a turn, this will limit them as long as there are balanced options.

[@HLR4th]

My next character is going to be a Vengeance Paladin, but I’m not envisioning him as angry. I’m picturing Matt Murdock’s Daredevil, or The Equalizer (Denzel’s movies, I never watched the TV shows); more resigned, reluctant, but still highly effective when they go to work.

[@aidanhendricksen4832]

I mean Kelly, if you think about being vengeful as spiteful and proving some one wrong that could count as oath of vengeance

[@zacharyschulz560]

I think Oath of Ancients is perfect as an A. The aura might actually be better in this edition as spells are now less common for monsters. The spells do a great job promoting keeping enemies from reaching the squishies behind you. Lots of crowd control options. The channel divinity is certainly an upgrade from the 2014 version. Its not an overpowered subclass, but the features improve upon the base class and you domt have to build arpund it to make the additions relevant. Well deserved A.

[@J.sh_CDN]

Loved the episode and can't wait foe my favourite class, the Ranger, so I can be devastated at their weakness.... maybe I'll just play a Vengeance or Ancients Paladin with a few skills to be basically a better Ranger.... the Holy Ranger

[@davidkohns1894]

Fun story as a dm. One time my glory Paladin failed an escort quest when the npc was killed. Then switched their oath to Vengeance. Roleplayed as self-centered to now hunting those who prey on the weak. Great story arc.

[@mikecarson7769]

Let's hear it for Forest Gnome as Oath of the Ancients Paladin

[@andrewbrowder7062]

Devotion Paladin is great with a arcane Caster who spams Hypnotic Pattern.

[@charrleschervanik3632]

One detail that I know is not brought up because it's too intensive and situational is multiclassing. However, an Oath of Devotion Paladin with a one to four level dip into warlock (Pact of the Blade and Eldritch mind) is crazy strong. Having an on demand up to +10 (+weapon mod & prof bonus) to hit for 10 minutes is insane. Not to mention, since you are focused on firing your Charisma Mod to the moon, you get the really strong aura and can play party face. Additionally, at level 7 (assuming warlock 1, Paladin 6), your concentration check could be indomitable. Being able to add your charisma mod to that, have advantage on that, and through Resilient con be proficient in it, with constitution of even +3 would make most concentration checks near impossible to fail. 3 (cha) + 3(con) + 3 (prof) with advantage with just one more warlock level And it only scales with level as you are going to bump your charisma up at the next available level, and your proficiency bonus grows with you. A build I would go with: 15 +2 Cha 14+1 con 13 strength 12 dex 10 int 8 wis Warlock 1: Pact of the Blade Paladin 1 (lvl 2) Medium armor & shield, Pick 1 handed d8 weapon like Rapier, attacking with charisma Paladin 2: Dueling/ defence fighting style Paladin 3: Oath of devotion Paladin 4: Resilient con Paladin 5: extra attack Paladin 6: Aura of protection Warlock 2: Eldritch mind, pyf Warlock 3: Pact of the Celestial, for healing purposes Warlock 4: Bump Charisma through a feat Then a choice: do you want the extra damage equal to your charisma every time you smite, or more Paladin spells.

[@joshhosking4112]

when are we getting a warlock patron tier list?! ive been fiending for that for months! great work by the way guys

[@ricardoking6974]

Quick question to anyone, does any of your guises DMs or if you are a DM would you allow for a player to use a different spell casting ability than what is intended? Just curious, we have a Sorlock at our table who uses Int instead of Cha

[@pgb8000]

Id say be very careful. In play test, WoTC considered warlock as either INT or CHA caster, but they dropped this for the final version. I think multiclassing is the issue. So, in your situation, with an INT-based Sorcerer, as a DM I'd be fine with that - on one condition. No multiclassing (ie with wizard or particularly artificer). I'm not sure if this would break the game, but it might, and I don't want to have to work through all the possible combinations which could be broken before agreeing.

[@xexus101]

I definitely thought the Ancients Paladin wasn't good enough, but this has given me another look and I really think that subclass oozes flavour and potential. Vengeance Pally seems like the optimizers dream! 😂

[@mikesegul4163]

Glory role play is my favorite in the entire game. A lot of the spells and abilities fit right into that, so it’ll always be my favorite. I don’t need vengeance if I’m already better than everyone.

[@M_M_ODonnell]

Oath of Vengeance is one of the biggest flags for me that someone is playing a build rather than a character (or, at the very least, a character designed around a build). I don't worry about if for one-shots or adventures of a few sessions, but for a longer story-focused campaign it can be a not-so-great sign. For a dungeon-crawler or combat-focused adventure I certainly wouldn't object to having a Vengeance paladin the party when I'm a player -- but as soon as I see one multiclassed with warlock, I have to wonder whether (and it's still "wonder whether," not "conclude that") they're in it for their own combat metrics (whichever ones they've chosen to focus on) rather than teamwork.

[@SortKaffe]

+5 to all saves within 10 feet of the Padlock is all the team work you get from them, but it's good enough 😉

[@M_M_ODonnell]

@@SortKaffe I would be _spectacularly_ uninterested in anything longer than a drop-in game with someone who approached it that way unironically

[@RangerAzmyth]

Good thing they can play the game how they enjoy it. Not how you enjoy it.

[@M_M_ODonnell]

@@RangerAzmyth Ever had a conversation with one? If you don't block them quickly they spend the next six months telling you how D&D is _actually_ supposed to be a game for people who want to sort out ideal builds and your character-driven campaign is _wrong_ for excluding them just because they're _superior_ players. And at least one replies to every comment in every D&D video that expresses a preference for storytelling in their storytelling game talking about how _actually_ collaboration isn't really important

[@athenaleonard1046]

I mean. Vengeance is a really strong character motivator. And I know a lot of people that care about both story/characters as well as having a strong mechanical impact. It definitely does feel unfair that oath of vengeance goes above and beyond with insane combat impact and flavor while other subclasses don’t, but you can’t really fault a player for finding that tantalizing. If your player isn’t collaborating and dominating everything and avoiding storytelling, that’s not a subclass problem, that’s a personal problem.

[@Sirfinchyyy]

Woooooow that Vengeance Pally is scary, advantage on your foes, reducing movement of your foes, mobility spells to keep up with your target.... AND you can transfer the oath to any enemy for free?!?! Calling it now thats an S rank right there. "THEY FLY NOW?!?!" "YEAH, THEY FLY NOW😭😭😭😭"

[@wrightcore3367]

I have played Vengeance Paladin more than I have any other subclass. It is super fun and powerful, and it’s a strong contender for being my favorite subclass.

[@mattdahm4289]

Thanks dudes! ❤

[@mooduck101]

Something that pisses me off about Vengeance Paladins is that they get Hunters Mark, especially now that it’s basically the rangers whole identity. Imagine if there was a subclass that let you cast divine smite

[@daniellundberg9225]

IMHO that's a problem with the Ranger class, not Vengeance Paladins. Hunter's Mark shouldn't be a spell in the first place, let alone a whole class.😛

[@vvsandgaming4648]

With the new dndbeyond addition of the Illrigger class from MCDM, will you be doing a Dungeon Dudes overview of the class and your thoughts on the subclasses contained therein?

[@daniellundberg9225]

It feels like the 'on Divine Smite, do X' abilities are a holdover from when Divine Smite was an ability that didn't require an action, not a spell among many - who all require a Bonus Action to use. Similar to how Superior Hunter’s Prey from the Hunter Ranger is clearly a holdover from when Hunter's Mark was limited to 1/round but did more damage.

[@NotYourAverageNothing]

Hey, where can I watch yesterday's livestream?

[@CarloPeano]

Relentless avenger does not stack with soul of vengeance because Soul of vengeance gives you a melee attack (it isn’t an opportunity attack) and relentless attack works only with opportunity attacks.

[@screwbigtechsanti-sciencem9438]

44:38 Rebrand it as not an Oath of Vengeance Paladin, but as an Oath of Justice Paladin. That way you can allow for vengeance when it IS justified and not break our oath when you decide to not allowing senseless killing in the name of "revenge". You can be VERY devoted to the ideas of justice and fairness which can incorporate revenge in some way without getting an always angry and looking for revenge anti-paladin feel. Why not a slight headline/flavor tweak while keeping the content the same? This is after all a roleplaying game. Oath of Justice is a perfect flavor replacement for Vengeance if you don't want to play as a "dark" paladin of sorts. No need to ban a class that you want to try for yourself because of flavor reasons. Just adjust the flavor instead 👌😁

[@donaldcrankshaw1627]

I'm considering playing an evil Devotion paladin, who has sworn the Devotion oaths, and fully plans to keep them, but has no idea how to actually be good. I think that might mix well with Celestial Warlock, though I'm still thinking about the backstory.

[@TheBahamaat]

I just dropped the Channel Divinity use from Inspiring Smite. The peerless athlete was a great add in 2014 if you were doing Shield Bash build since it needed Athletics.

[@intrinsical]

My party once faced 5 flameskulls in a small room, casting 5 fireballs on my party. Those 5 fireballs did an average of 14 damage to each party member thanks to the Ancients paladin in the party.

[@theformation3781]

I wanted to say this before but i feel this video is the best place to say it (since i really care more for the dudes than paladins, probably my least favourite class so i have no bias towards how they end up ranked) but I feel like the tier ranking explanation at the start really should say that the criteria for B tier/A tier is also whether something is fun or not, rather than just performance at tiers of play. For example devotion's channel divinity feature is categorically cracked, it's sort of absurd since it *stacks* with advantage and there's almost nothing like it, it is way better than vow of enmity as well, and enough for the class to be A tier but it is because the subclass isn't super fun that it's in B. Same with the land druid, 4 whole spell lists and a floating party wide resistance is enough for A tier, especially compared to Sea druid which is comparatively weaker, but fun is 100% a factor in why it was B. Or thief rogue or zealot barbarian or open hand monk, they 100% match other subclasses in terms of power but it is definitely their fun factor that got them docked to B. And going by the tier definitions, A and B aren't that different, but it still stands that having fun/interesting/non-finnicky features is almost a must for A tier, and it isn't really reflected in the initial explanation. Now it is very probable that this is contextual and i failed to pick up that this is common knowledge, and i think quantifying the excitement a subclass brings to the table is actually a useful metric of comparison so if i've misunderstood this then I apologise, but imo it could be clarified a bit more at the start?

[@DrgnDrake]

At lvl 15 (same lvl a Glory Paladin gets Glorious Defense) a Battlemaster can Bait and Switch every round for a d8 without using a resource thanks to Relentless. Of course there's issues with comparing features on different classes, but it's such a vast difference...

[@DrakeAurum]

One of my favourite 5e characters, though it was only in a short 12-session adventure, was a vengeance paladin who'd got his revenge. The adventure's premise was that we were a party who'd slain the dragon, and now had to bring its head back to town as proof. So I played a character whose entire goal in life had been to get revenge on this dragon for wiping out his hometown and loved one, and now, like Inigo Montoya, he found himself no longer in the revenge business. It's a good way to play a vengeance paladin without having all the boiling rage, and a character who is seeking new purpose in their life.

[@Sirfinchyyy]

29:38 Most players look at Tree Stride and think:" Oh it's just the tree-huggers version of teleport, no big deal." But i would argue that it's one of the most potent, foolproof ways to infiltrate a camp, small fort, or even a fortified city at a shorter range. Instead of trying to make several stealth checks for each player, athletics/acrobatics and whatever else might become relevant, you just look at a tree from range for a bit, walk to any other tree and POOF there's a doorway bypassing all of those challenges that just materialized. Small Caviat, your DM might not always plan for this and might state if asked, "yeah there are a few trees." Only to feel like a major challenge they had planned got bypassed with 0 effort. Hopefully they (and by extension the NPC group in question) learn to deal with it after the 1st time.

[@dnd3dm]

Vengeance paladins are always my go-to character, and mine are always either lawful or neutral good. Punishing evil-doers in no way precludes being on the side of the angels and helping everyone you as you are able, when you aren't destroying creatures who are trying to murder those whom you are trying to help. 👍👍

[@binolombardi]

ancients paladin has access to almost every resistance in the game. protection from elements for basic elemental damages, class feature for radiant/necrotic/psychic, and stoneskin which isn’t bypassed by magic sources now.

[@James-kv3ll]

If the Oath of Glory Level 15 Feature reset on a Short or Long rest instead of just a Long rest I’d be so excited to play that Subclass. Oath of Glory: Great ideas that are undercooked.

[@pgb8000]

I think comparing Oath of Glory's temp hp Inspiring Smite channel divinity to Inspiring Leader is a strange comparison - they have completely different uses. IL is used well before combat starts, when you probably have full hp (and let's not forget, it costs a feat in your build as well), so OoG can still do this. On the other hand, Inspiring Smite happens in the midst of combat, probably when you are under half hp (and the temp hp from Inspiring Leader are long gone), when you are desperately trying to stay in the fight. It happens as a freebie alongside your attack/smite (what I mean is that it does not cost an action or BA to use it, even if you need to expend a channel divinity). And as well as potentially keep yourself alive for an extra round of two, you can also direct some or all of the hp on the wizard who you need to keep alive as they concentrate on a critical spell. AND you can do it again the next round, using your second channel divinity. Therefore potentially dropping 20-50+ hp on the party without needing to use an action or bonus action, and continuing to smash your foes with smites. So, a totally different use - could regularly be encounter changing! Why is this not amazing?

[@jacobelder4823]

Would the Oath of Devotion accuracy boost make for a cool longbow or crossbow build?

[@bisonbob9092]

I'm keen to lean into the mount. Take Lance and GWM feat with a shield.

[@keatsmeister]

Played a Dragonborn Vengeance Paladin with Battlemaster dip in 2014. Sent the DM the 2024 version of that character - he was terrified knowing what I could I do with just the 2014 version 😂

[@grantparker6047]

I think the oath of the ancients resistance to necrotic, radiant, and psychic damage might be significantly stronger once the new monster manual comes out due to the lack of magical Bludgeoning piercing and slashind damage. I also think monsters casting spells is going to be few and far between. So this is probably a wash as far as buff vs nerf.

[@benross9174]

At least Undying Sentinal is better on Ancients than other Paladins. Not only are you tankier but you also have Misty Step to GTFO of a bad situation if you have to

[@CovertGhoul]

Paladin is somewhere between 4th and 9th on the class tier list. It is probably the best martial, but I wouldn't slot it above Cleric/Druid. I like all 4 arcane casters more, and you'd have to access how much you need to hug an aura paladin instead of just spreading out/ranging things. Fighter/Barbarian/Monk all have some compelling arguments versus the Paladin stuff, but then Paladin are half-casters, so maybe Paladin is better? I could see that being a tier in itself behind Arcane Casters, Wisdom Casters, and Good Martial, and then Bad Martial at the end, and the Rogue/Rangers can cry it out to see who is the worst in 5.24 ((Ranger's peak (1-6) is probably better than any of Rogue's peaks, but Rogue is much better in the long run, so in a long ass campaign (what I prefer to play), I'd probably rather play a Rogue, so I'd put Rogue marginally higher on the horizontal, and everything would be C- and up.)) TL; DR Paladin probably weaker than Wizard, Bard, Sorcerer, and Warlock, but comparable to Warlock, Cleric, Druid, and marginally stronger than Fighter, Barbarian (World Tree), and Monk (Shadow).

[@gregb.7014]

This doesn’t apply when isolating features alone - and I can’t speak to all the tables out there. But I do feel that the actual oaths and tenets matter. For example, Oath of Glory? Probably the easiest Oath to uphold. Do cool shit, and make other people want to do cool shit. Be an adventurer and show off, basically. I feel you’d almost have to try to break that oath, versus some of the other Oaths presented in the PHB.

[@MartinGasparini86]

the problem I have is with the ancient paladin... they NERF it because was needed but the aura now is useless...if you are a character with already those resistance... and the fix is easy allow the players to choose three resistance they want every time... like in a fire setting allow fire resistance

[@truevenom97]

I am curious if making tier 3 and tier 4 adventures will be easier with the new monster manual. I really wish these tiers of play get more popular.

[@joshuatreyhill]

I have a player Right Now in a Campaign who is playing Oath of Glory, and if I were to want to Punch the subclass up a bit with House Rules, how do you think I could bring it to a SOLID B, or even an A? My first idea: Decouple the Channel Divinity from Divine Smite, but if it IS used with the Divine Smite, it gives Bonus Temp HP, a bit more than normal? I was thinking house-ruling it to work with Any Smite spell, but idk that'd do it alone...

[@pgb8000]

I would house rule to work with any smite spell. That's enough. Paladin's love to smite, so I don't think this is much of a restriction. The temp hp are designed to give a boost in the midst of combat, not a pre-combat buff (that's why Monty's comparison with Inspiring Leader was a bit daft).

[@chrismeandyou]

Since Wizards give Paddies all the love, might as well be an Ancients Paladin instead of a Ranger as a nature warrior.

[@nathanvalley7269]

Cover just boosts AC it isn’t specifically against ranged attacks that’s just when it’s most common.

[@Praiokles]

Aura of Alacrity ist underrrated. You can use it all the time! To catch a thief, deliver a message, flee from a mob, get your shopping done faster,...

[@andrewpeli9019]

Charm immunity is a lot more valuable on a class that is going to fail wisdom and especially charisma saves. Between save proficiency and the aura, the paladin rarely fails charm saves anyway.