Even MORE Inverter Testing (episode 45)

[@diandmartydownes1611]

Nice to cu guys again. Hope you’re both ok. X.

[@paulbull]

Great to see your videos again Jeff.

[@AlwaysVanAdventure]

Thanks champ. Appreciate that.

[@webpigjohn4959]

Really informative.. but I'm even more confused now than I was before ffs 🤣🤣

[@willrobbinson1]

you NEED to now more about electronics , the reason for that "earth" voltage is simply low leakage of bypassing caps internal to frame to reduce " noise" interference (very common ) , no need to use elcb's as most have floating outputs

[@G1ZQCArtwork]

Hi Geoff. The centre tapped versions may work the same as an Audio Amplifier chip. One half of the chip deals with the upper side of the waveform, whilst the other side of the chip deals with the lower half of the waveform. Chassis ground is the centre tap. This is why you must not ground a speaker on either side, as you will be shorting one half of the waveform. Modified inverters perform in a similar way, in fact you have Two inverters in one. One inverter produces one side of the waveform and the other side produces its opposite partner. The opposing pulses are ramped, this is where the modification magic works. Its very choppy on an Oscilloscope. Most switch mode PSUs will cope with the weird shaped ramp. David in Skegness Lincolnshire.

[@ProjectCamper]

I always thought that it’s to do with the waveform, much like a 2 channel hifi amplifier, the left and right channel making different audio, but collectively our ears listening. The two waves of 110v coming together to make 220v , the Current from 12v being converted in dirty fashion , hi and low frequency waves and using electronics to clean up the waves, all victron and sterling inverters over 500w make volts like a house supply. This my take on it , love this kind of video, shows not every pure sine wave inverter are equal . Pure gold 👍👍

[@lifebeyondbricks]

Another interesting video guys. Unfortunately I don’t have the experience or expertise to offer any explanation on the 240volt circuit findings (more used to working on the 12 volt system being from automotive/car background)

[@RustyRoseAdventures]

Great to see another video Adrian! Very interested in your inverter experiments. 104%🤣 great help! Look forward to more videos this year 👌🤞

[@AndrewBenbow]

I can't offer any meaningful answers to your questions but it's great to watch smoke coming out of your ears while you try to figure it out! ;)

[@x9moto]

The answer to your question regarding earth bonding is as follows.... To have a true earth the earth cable would need a peg installed in the ground to the case of the inverter this would then become a true earth passing the current to ground in a fault situation. If there were a fault without the peg your earth would float along with the live as there is no reference to true earth (the batteries arent earthed and you cant pass 230v to a 12v battery. The centre tapped approach is actually a safety feature because if there were a fault with the live (or neutral) and you touched the inverter while holding the appliance you would only experience half the voltage which is far less lethal, the same approach is used in the usa to get 240v for high powered appliances they have a tapped transformer with two phases of 110 going in each side. This is why they dont need an earth. Generators also use this same approach.

[@davidsleigh7189]

Are you still converting poppy mate and if so how far along is it now

[@kmac499]

Isn't centre tapped what the USA do for their domestic 110v?

[@ZerHour]

Watching again as very interesting , on topic of power any video on the DC breakers especially polarity din type , there's mixed opinions of videos on them ,polarity type need to be wired correctly or can fail ,the little diagrams on front with + & - confuses a lot of people ,wiring to most potential and stuff like that needs covering in more detail IMO 👍

[@lindamcdonaldcairns9874]

Hi Jeff thanks for all your useful tests I am just about to install a Renogy 2000w inverter. I just watched your previous video #40 and you ran it through the RCD/MCB. I have just watched this later video and would like to ask if the Renogy is a neutral earth bonded inverter? Also have you found an answer🤔 Thanks Linda

[@resetpassw0rd]

Funny, how 7 months later i found this video, looking for the answer for the same question: is Renogy a neutral earth bonded inverter?) Thats crazy, how peoples minds works the same in general :) So is it?

[@lindamcdonaldcairns9874]

@@resetpassw0rd I ended up swapping my renology for a 1000w Sterling power with a built in RCD

[@resetpassw0rd]

@@lindamcdonaldcairns9874 so Renogy didnt work out properly? I need 220V xD

[@lindamcdonaldcairns9874]

@@resetpassw0rd I wanted it to be safe and didnt want to run the inverter through my 240v hook up consumer unit.I think the inverters need an RCD to be on the safe side so if you are not using a consumer unit then either get one that has one or atleaat add it before you go to the load.I have only ever seen the Sterling Power do one though.

[@OwnMyBit]

Oh what a rabbit hole you are running down! I could give a really long answer but it may help you better if I suggest that you investigate mains power in the USA. These inverter designs are aimed at the US market more than the UK market. Us Brits think americain mains power is 120 volts and it is true that one "phase" is 120 volts nominal - just like you measured from live to earth or neutral to earth..... but most houses in USA have TWO phases going to them and the second is the other part of what you measured - ie the second 120 volts you measured. In houses requiring higher voltage than 120 Volts fir higher power systems - such as washing machines etc - the electrical installer joins these two phases together to make 240 volts across the live and neutral delivered to the outlet socket. These inverters are designed on the same principle to mimic American household mainsxsystems not the UK system directly. Second point is your meter..... meters will measure either "True RMS" or "Average AC" ..... you cannot use a True RMS meter to measure accurately or sensibly on anything other than a pure sine wave. You really need to run your tests on an "average reading AC" meter. Thirdly, power is only volts times amps if the load is purely resistive. If a motor or a capacitive load such as LED lighting is used then the amps is out of phase to the volts and you must times it by the cosine of the phase angle to find the true Watts. A good wattmeter should display both VA (is volts times amps) and POWER IN WATTS (ie VA times the cosine phase angle). There's loads of other factors to take into account to decode if an inverter is good . ... such as if it drives a fridge or small microwave etc.... and whether the inverter brings its current up quickly or has a soft start.... etc Bottom line is: :does it work in your application?" If so it is a good inverter! Well done for tackling a difficult subject though.... we need people like you to explain what to buy for our vans and why some inverters don't work well. 👍

[@AlwaysVanAdventure]

Take all of your points onboard. Totally appreciate what you are saying. Ultimately what I want to do is protect myself from possible electric shock which as you know even in very low amperage situations can be fatel. So I want to run an inverter in conjunction with an RCD. However I can only get an RCD to activate as it should on neutral earth bonded inverters try as I might on centre tapped inverters.

[@OwnMyBit]

@@AlwaysVanAdventure I get what you are saying about RCD etc.... I'm at a similar point in my van build and haven't decided on my final sution yet so welcome this discussion. My thoughts start at the DC-DC converter; some have the input negative pole connected directly to the negative output pole whereas my Renogy unit has them separate. I have chosen (so far) to keep my house battery negative separate from the van negative so my house batteries are not connected to chassis and I run a negative wire for all my appliances. I have three inverters (300W modded sine, 300W pure sine and 1500 pure sine) and have not yet checked whether the DC input poles are connected to the output AC poles or ground pole. But in my setup, with the DC being separate from the van chassis, I can be sure than my AC poles are also NOT referenced to the van chassis at any point.... so at the moment an RCD would not work for me but also there is no danger if I hold my inverter live and the van chassis as no significant current can flow. I'm going to soon be installing a shore power input along with permanent AC-DC battery charger to top up the batteries when on shore power. As such, I'm also looking at how best to install RCD protection to this new installation. I suspect I need to investigate the input to output connections on my inverter. Any thoughts? I'm looking forward to any follow up videos. 👍

[@AlwaysVanAdventure]

@@OwnMyBit So I totally agree that running negs to everything is best practice rather than just running lives and using chassis to act as negs ......I also agree that no significant current can flow from chassis to live AC as you describe in your current configuration........ however the moment you go adding a shore power hook up you must in my opinion ground your chassis because of the risk of a live earth fault from the shore power side. Because of this and because so often I fit a auto transfer switch so that sockets can be energised from either inverter or shore power I have decided to go all in with recommending chassis ground which in a neutral earth bond senario inverter senario. Next vid is uploading now so will be out tomorrow which shows my findings. Will be interested on your feedback once you had a chance to watch that vid too.

[@OwnMyBit]

@@AlwaysVanAdventure I saw you fit an auto shore switch in an earlier video and intend to investigate them when I start my next phase. Do you have a link to the one you use?

[@AlwaysVanAdventure]

@@OwnMyBit I build them now. In the video at the end there is a wiring diagram. Happy to supply a parts list.

[@willrobbinson1]

ps do a current test between live / neutral to frame you will get nothing ( few hundred UA at best)(if the neutral/earth not connected)

[@grandpafossil]

🙂👍🏽

[@x9moto]

I have my own new toy to play with soon after my trusty 1500w work horse inverter failed after 7 years hard graft (a cheap chinese modified sine wave) which was running a washing machine (without heater), a tumbledryer (1000w), a 600w kettle, a mini ac unit (1400w impressive to start that one required 3000w surge), a 400w dehumidifier and finally a 1200w microwave (actual power not cooking power) not all at the same time obviously! Anyway i have treated myself to a sunshine solar 3000w pure sinewave (6000w surge) also chinese but at the top end of pricing and from a reputable agent. Will have to get the scope out and see how pure these really are and hopefully it will be as durable as the last one. I passed up on a mastervolt 2000w used as i just dont trust mosfets that are 10 years old and people want to much for these old inverters.

[@Severon1965]

Have a little prezzie for pixie , how can i send it to her , i think she will really like it

[@pixie_sings]

Oooh I love prezzies!! Haha. What is it??? 🥰

[@Severon1965]

@@pixie_sings Its a 1950 style dress was bought for my ex but we split up was never worn and brand new

[@pixie_sings]

@@Severon1965 oh amazing!! Did Jeff give you the addy etc?

[@Severon1965]

@@pixie_sings No Nothing yet

[@johnt7938]

Maybe the UK only use center neg vs rest of the world not, never knew you could do this on inverters. Cost will have something to do with it as well, most inverters are made in China and for a small percentage of units been for the UK maybe that's why there not configured out of the box.

[@malcolm-ggmu]

Hi Jeff, I found this video which has good method on how to wire up a RCD to your Inverter kzbin.info/www/bejne/m4KUeqeppd5sl68 Hope you find it useful - Malcolm