Examining Marvel's Flop Era

[@nateds7326]

In 2019 I was like “man I cannot possibly imagine where they could go from here!” And it turns out Marvel was like “Bro, same”

[@guccimalcs]

The story was over. There was nowhere left to go. But, you guys just want to keep throwing money at a greedy company and they’re going to keep pooping in your mouth.

[@StrumGod]

They knew where they were going.. Down.

[@AKImeru]

Actually they knew exactly what they wanted! They wanted to retire their main characters, embrace multiverse storylines, and update the mainline like they did in the comics. Except almost everything I said here got reversed due to complete fumble and mismanagement by marvel themselves, hiring of poor writers who often were writing their first comic, or veterans sleep walking through this with no ambition or creative energy. A mess that has been walked back. Even Sam Wilson as Captain America was walked back and that one had a very strong case and status quo as a capstone to a fantastic Captain America run. THe problem is that they didn't see the multiverse as part of a story (like the one in Avengers Forever or Hickman's Secret War) they saw it as a way to flood the market with shoddy stories where they precisely didn't want to adapt these characters at all and instead create messes by people who were instructed not to draw from the originals. It is why we got some of the worst fucking apperances of the Wrecking Crew, the Skrulls, and even when we did get something good (Moon Knight) it was so far away from the original that as a fan of both the comic and the show I feel conflicted. Their vision for the future was there, it was just corporate, high on their own farts. Do not act like they had no vision. It just happened to be a terrible one, one that was fed by hubris and complete lack of respect for creators. And this goes beyond respecting some men in tights, I'm talking about not paying Jim Starlin, or giving Ed Brubaker a payment so low he outright refused. Disney looks at this wonderful IP and to them they are something to be exploited, not respected, not created upon. There is no creative energy, and there wasn't one for the longest time either. The MCU had a build up and I'll argue the payoff was not interesting. Now we see more of the same, but the vision is even more spread, even more greedy, and now others too can see the king has no clothes. It never had it, not after Disney brought Marvel Studios. But we are not ready to have this conversation. Give it a couple years.

[@bravobird9435]

James Gunn knew exactly what he was gonna do with guardians 3 it was great

[@Mr.Nyongo]

​@@guccimalcsWTF are you talking about??? The story wasn't even close to over. Why, because less than a handful of actor's contracts expired?? There's still a whole universe to explore and guess what the MCU wasn't that great before Endgame. Not much has changed in quality. It's still the quippy corny B-/C+ effort it's always been.

[@devanman7920]

I don't like having RDJ as Doom. Doom is so good he should be an awesome character in his own right, not just some variant of Tony or just an actor we've seen before. Casting RDJ because he's popular just shows a lack of either creativity or simple desperation.

[@TheKeyser94]

Yeah, Doom was manipulative and menacing, leader of his own nation. In the later arcs before Disney buy Marvel the writers really were pondering the question. What is really justice? "Heroes" could do horrible things in the name of national safety, that caused corruption, invasions and multiples genocides in the comics.

[@gyr0zeppeliii507]

Sadly it’s probably gonna work out in the end, just having RDJ will probably fill seats that opening week.. if it works out in the long run is a different story

[@ShadyPlatinum777]

We don’t know if he is a variant of Tony yet but I understand your concerns

[@functionatthejunction]

Or they are adapting the comic story where Tony literally is Dr. Doom.

[@shafqatalam6018]

@@ShadyPlatinum777 hes not tony or a variant of tony they literally said hes playing victor von doom

[@killerbees1199]

Even if Marvel didn't plan on Endgame being the end, the general public did. They had a beginning, a middle, and an end. Everything after that feels like it was added later, like Marvel planned out the whole Avengers thing and then was surprised it was so successful, and now are trying to figure out how to match it. TV shows, movies, and comic books are all different mediums, and storytelling works different in each.

[@ackmandesu8538]

I watched all Marvel movies in the cinema with the same group of friends. It was nice. We’d watch the movie and have some beers afterwards to discuss what we thought. After Endgame I felt no need to keep going because all movies had been leading to this, in a way. I didn’t care anymore. Iron man was dead. I dunno. We kept watching but I quickly realized how little I enjoy these movies anymore. Characters I don’t care about make way too many jokes for me to take the plot seriously and at the end they fight hundreds of CGI monsters even when it makes no sense for them to do so. It happens again and again and again. Like the video says, these issues were there before but the good parts helped me ignore them. Now those flaws shine way harder.

[@frale_2392]

The problem with Endgame to me is that if you already know that you're going to make more movies after it, you can't make it a clean end, you have to set up new storylines for new/old characters that draw people to see the next movies, and expand from there. Endgame gave me a definitive end to the MCU story I knew, so after that I felt no need to watch whatever came after

[@Nawaf-qk9mu]

I think if they started slow and appropriately established phase 4 as a new beginning, while maintaining the quality of writing, they'd have done very well

[@MikeSchmidt969]

So what you're saying is the story is the main reason to see the film. And I agree. All they need to do is create a new story, establish the focal characters, add the right villian, and that new story will draw people back. Or at least draw a new generation of people. They have yet to do that. Instead we get a lot of one offs and attempts to use lesser known characters, which clearly isn't working. So I have a question. If the story was good enough, would any of you return to watch Marvel movies if they got new, younger actors to portray the Marvel characters? Much like they did with Spiderman? Personally, I would because I have no attachment to RDJ or Chris Evans or anyone really. And they wouldn't have to make it a multi-verse thing either. Just get new actors with a good story and I'm there.

[@lexruptor]

Well "the public" can kiss my ass ngl

[@SeanORaigh]

Unironically, I would've been more excited for a return of Nick Cage's ghost rider than for the desperate flailing that is Downey's Doom.

[@rhythmandblues_alibi]

Honestly same.

[@Cokemalola]

Nah

[@Leonyithas]

Here is where we get to a topic that the video essay left out (probably because it’s very deep) Actors that are in the MCU do get the benefit of having a stable form of employment, but they also have sacrificed their likeness and availability for other roles to be absorbed into (what can be compared to) an unstable bank bond. Not to mention the still worrying fears about the stipulations that allow AI and such, Nic Cage went on record saying he had to ask Ryan Reynolds “what are you going to do with my body?” Because even though the man has been in over 100 movies, none of them wanted to take his face from him like the MCU will. Again, for actors that don’t have the ease of getting casting like Leonardo DiCaprio or Christian Bale, it makes sense for them to choose a guaranteed check, but they are giving more than just the labor of acting to get it. That’s why Nic Cage turned them down. And why he was nearly sueing WB over the flash CGI cameo.

[@jase276]

I would've been more excited for a return of Nick Cage as Doom

[@lukeyznaga7627]

yeah, great idea.

[@self-consciousmess]

It’s strange how hard Marvel seems to be betting on the next two Avengers movies considering that I could not tell you who the Avengers are post-Endgame if you put a gun to my head.

[@BlindedBraille]

Because they haven't established them yet despite it being... 5 years. 🤦‍♂️

[@self-consciousmess]

@@BlindedBraille I agree but it’s arguably been closer to 3.5 years considering that they had to pause production due to COVID. It’s still ridiculous tho, especially with the sheer VOLUME of content they put out afterward

[@BlindedBraille]

@@self-consciousmess It is. We got three movies left for Avengers. I'm not sure how this is going to work.

[@desert0fox]

Its Amgroot, scruffyman, and Jimbo ain't it?

[@gayanudugampola8973]

There's not even a team up. Or core members.

[@kevtiz03]

Marvel missed a a huge opportunity to set up their smaller or less popular heroes during the blip period

[@tobznoobs]

looking back i would have loved having 5 more movies instead of 2 before endgame, which means a two year gap, to establish smaller characters. the only problem with that is looking back, endgame wouldn't be as big if it came out in covid lockdowns.

[@seraby7151]

I think they setup Kamala just fine but yeah. Loki is the only phase 4 thing that really mattered in the long run. Even Wandavision kinda became worse because of Multiverse of Madness.

[@captainweekend5276]

That would have made more sense but the issue still lies with the fact that smaller or less popular heroes are less popular for a reason, not everything will work like GotG did. They're honestly better off casting new versions of old characters having them be from different universes. I'd rather see fresh takes on Thor, Cap, and Iron Man than them try to make Kate Bishop, Ms Marvel, Black Widow's sister, and Shang Chi carry the franchise. Trying to carry the MCU with characters from an era where the entire comics industry can be outsold by a single manga is doomed to failure, especially when they have so much untapped potential from more established heroes that still haven't made it to screen *cough cough* Captain Britain *cough cough*.

[@mikeg2491]

@@captainweekend5276Guardians worked casting unknowns because it had a gimmick behind it, it’s Marvel meets Star Wars. Trailer, boom, instant gratification. If I’m 100% ignorant about comics and see a trailer for The Marvels, what is this movie selling me? It’s 3 b-characters on an ordinary adventure. There’s no hook. I think there is also of underestimation about how much of the audience is hardcore enough to not only know these minor comic characters but is even diligent enough to keep up with all the movies. You need to sell a theme for the movie to capture these casuals.

[@noahjones9833]

Theyre hounding for profit to satisfy shareholders cuz capitalism, so that's probably why they rushed to hit the next spectacle rather than do any groundwork

[@duanein3d]

The moment I realize the MCU I fell in love with was over was when Elizabeth Olsen said the writers of Multiverse of Madness hadn’t seen/read the script for Wandavision. Literally it was my Santa’s not real moment after assuming everything would continue to connect.

[@starsneptunexx]

That’s what happens when they put Waldron in charge. He had no idea what to do 💀💀

[@svetlanaandrasova6086]

Also when i heard how rushed everything was. They shot the last episode of Wandavision the day first 1 premiered

[@svetlanaandrasova6086]

​@@starsneptunexxthe guy didnt even know Loki's character and they let him in charge on his show

[@Aphelion.s_Abyss]

Yeah. Hearing everything about it made me so upset tbh. Like why????

[@drakegrandx5914]

On another hand, why is it called "Santa's not real" moment? It's a bit weird, because, like, Santa is real, so it kinda defeats the point of the expression.

[@clublazy9468]

If Dr doom says “um that just happened” I’m flying into the sun with a billion kites

[@Randomaccount9470]

Uhmm... That comment just happened 😏

[@Randomaccount9470]

You :the Sun is right behind me isn't it

[@Jane-oz7pp]

I can't wait for them to write a line with him saying the G slur since several higher ups are directly anti-Roma and that's probably why they race-swapped him to be RDJ Brand Whiteness.

[@Stratmanable]

Promise? Golly, you'll be missed...

[@markuscriticus8278]

I've seen someone say, the best possible introduction they could give him would be for someone to make generic MCU quip at him, then have him murder that character immediately.

[@s3.14dervision]

It was very telling when RDJ was revealed as Doom and said, "different mask, same task." Yeah. No kidding.

[@MrWizardGG]

Why do you say that like it's a bad thing?? Rdj was one of the best things about the infinity saga. He's perfect for an evil genius character.

[@benjaminjenkins2384]

​@@MrWizardGGbecause retreading the same role is shitty

[@MrWizardGG]

@benjaminjenkins2384 it's not retreading the same role, it's doctor doom who hasn't been in the MCU yet r tard

[@NoName-eq9md]

​@@MrWizardGG RDJ as Iron Man was perfect. In this video, he literally says something along the lines of "cameos that can only be attributed to star power but are otherwise forgettable". This is an example of that. Iron Man made RDJ that star. What will Doctor Doom do to him?

[@MrWizardGG]

@NoName-eq9md I think you're comment is really stupid. RDJ is a good actor, Oppenheimer showed it recently.

[@kaistephenson6729]

Secret invasion so bad he didn’t even mention it

[@pabloarias9734]

THEY DID SECRET INVASION??? fucking idk what's even happening anymore

[@unfunnymeme2570]

that shit is staying a secret

[@felixma9192]

what secret invasion? invading where?

[@WAFFENFABRIK]

I still can't believe they used generic music video AI for the intro and said "Nobody was replaced with AI" as if they hired anyone in the first place lmfao

[@d4c_chayan9100]

Secret invasion ? never heard of that.

[@MasterMario548]

I remember about a decade ago Steven Spielberg said the superhero movie would go the way of the western. People mocked him for it and said he was wrong. Here we are a decade later and superhero movies don't do as well as they used too. Sure, there will always be a Deadpool and Wolverine that will make a billion dollars but I don't think the MCU will ever be like it was in the mid and late 2010s. Decades always seem to have a trend genre. The 2000s had fantasies with Harry Potter, Lord of the Rings, Narnia, and Pirates. the 2010s had superhero movies with Man of Steel, Avengers, Dark Knight Rises, and Endgame. The 2020s might be video game movies with Sonic and Mario doing as well as they did. Superhero movies will never die. Westerns never died too. But the day of them having hit and hit and everyone talking about them may be over.

[@guileniam]

Westerns were B movies, then died out and then in 1939 a whole bunch of hit westerns brought them back hard, but they never died until the 60s. After that western plots were moved to action films set in the present and good westerns were a niche if that. By that logic we should have 20+ years of superhero dominance but it's been what 15?

[@rh_BOSS]

​@@guileniamThe zeitgeist changes much faster in the social media era though. If anything, the superhero movies craze lasted a bit longer than a lot of people expected, seeing as MCU essentially has been coasting just on snappy dialogue and the charisma of a handful of actors for all this time.

[@Cezkarma]

Very well put. There was also the slasher horrors or "unstoppable action hero" movies of the 80's and 90's that are far less successful these days. Or the "Vince Vaughn/Owen Wilson" style comedies of the 2000's. Everything has its time and place and eventually the next big thing will come along.

[@holdingpattern245]

there's a pretty good video on this channel, about that very subject

[@fishjones4618]

Here’s the difference between what was then and what is now. When previous fad genres, musicals, westerns, slashers, etc, died out, studios let the them go and looked for the next big genre. Nowadays, studios, now that they are public and owned by megacorporations and are beholden to shareholders and very risk averse, aren’t letting this particular genre go and doing anything in their power to keep it going, no matter how bad it is because the people who they really listen to, the shareholders and venture capitalists, only see “brand name” and probably never watch this crap.

[@FlippySuper]

If I remember correctly, the only reason there's less Marvel movies and TV shows in 2024 is because of the actor and writer's strike of last year delaying everything. If that hadn't happened, this year would have been bloated as well. Marvel didn't "pull back" strategically, they were forced into that position, but now they get to brag like they planned it. Not giving them any props for that.

[@mirandahynes4991]

i think the biggest issue is that the movies have moved so far away from being character driven- the great thing about the OG avengers is that we got to see each character individually have their origin story, or their development, and we got truly emotionally attached to them. when you introduce 100 new characters and don’t give any of them much time for the audience to get attached, it’s way harder to do that. audiences need some breathing room

[@joncarroll2040]

There was a big mistake made in not making Captain Marvel more important in Avengers: Endgame. I get that they wanted the movie to pay homage to the original Avengers and finish the stories of Tony and Steve, but I think its the first example of the stinger scenes not really paying off since the ones for both Infinity War and Captain Marvel promised that she would be featured pretty heavily.

[@MikeSchmidt969]

Agreed, but then the studio isn't making nearly as much money. Let's not forget the true motivation for all this. Which in the end, is also the driving force for its demise.

[@laurenbonzell7292]

I’ve never been an action fan, so MCU movies have always been pretty hit or miss for me. But when I think of my favorite MCU movie, Black Panther, I think about how different and impactful the character conflicts felt in that film. The themes feel so much more important than whatever superhero VFX are going on, and I feel like that’s kinda what Scorsese was getting at.

[@ayamutakino]

@@mirandahynes4991 Marvel didn’t listen when they fucked over Edgar Wright. They should never have fucked over Edgar Wright.

[@MrWizardGG]

That's why I'm so excited for RDJ to be Doom.

[@lewsmith9708]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. Anyone who feels frustration with the way the Marvel movies are going: Now you get what comic book fans have been experiencing for decades.

[@neinja66469]

At least comic books give you a break with occasional continuities that are not only self-contained but they also wrap up in a neat lil bow The MCU could never and should not try to give us anything like that - they need to step away and reassess their priorities

[@lesslycarthan956]

😂right on

[@funnyfunnyvalentine7991]

At least DC comics have been great since 2016. Marvel hasn't been good since 2007

[@sephikong8323]

​@@funnyfunnyvalentine7991I wouldn't say "great" exactly more like "inconsistent", because whilst it's pumping out bangers semi regularly, it also pumps out turds about as frequently, but at least yes, it does publish good stories nowadays like Red Son or White Knight, Marvel publishing a good comic nowadays feels like a fluke

[@coreywho2972]

Glad to see atleast some marvel fans agree. 616 has been completely fked since like 2010.

[@GrandArchPriestOfTheAlgorithm]

Cold take: It's the removal of creatives in favor of executives and their formula, they don't understand.

[@samuelbarber6177]

True. When even a Sam Raimi Doctor Strange movie feels a bit samey with the rest of the phase, something’s gone horribly wrong. I think is why Phase 1 also worked. Sure, they weren’t that stylistically different, but at least Captain America: The First Avenger feels like an actual movie.

[@trorisk]

This formula (with humor to de-dramatize all situations) and the lack of creativity have existed since the 1st Ironman... I think what really hurt the MCU was the Indian film RRR. Rajamouli showed audiences what a superhero movie could and should be.

[@samuelbarber6177]

@@trorisk not even just RRR. Films like The Batman and Joker for example I think really showed up much of Marvel’s recent work. Heck, even older Marvel films being re-released in theatres like Spider-Man 2 have shown them up.

[@sartajparveen2001]

I think the issue is a little different, The MCU started with a gimmick of bringing comic book heroes as a team. That gimmick could have only worked once. This brought an overarching Thanos saga. Now when you look at phase 4 I don't think that superhero team up gimmick will work again and the audience is not ready for another 10 years commitment. In this case James bond has prevailed as you can watch any James bond movie except the Daniel Craig era and still enjoy it with a hint of past events for fans, but then you lose audience investment. Now add this gimmick issue with the deteriorating quality of Marvel movies and with superhero fatigue basically an average marvel movie has nothing to offer, you can still pull Audience with other gimmick like no way home, Deadpool and Wolverine or wakanda forever but these isn't what Marvel movies used to be.

[@mykeadelic]

when edgar wright left ant-man due to creative differences I realized the MCU’s intention isn’t making good movies. it’s making money.

[@LadyHannahGaGa]

The Black Widow movie felt straight up disrespectful in the fact that it was made after her character had officially died. Marvel dropped the ball with Black Widow's character multiple times; killing off their first female Avenger before she got her own movie, that terrible "I'm a monster cause I can't have kids" line in AOU, having her fall in love with Bruce.

[@Rtd976]

My marvel timeline: All numbered content is the MCU/sacred timeline. Those are the movies, shows and shorts that you want to watch in order. Anything marked with a “•” is additional/optional content for the advanced fan. The key to the symbols are located at the bottom of the list. the infinity saga is loopers and the following sagas are all me --infinity saga-- 1. Iron man 2.iron man 2 3.Incredible Hulk 4. The consultant (*marvel one shot) 5. Funny thing happened (*) 6. Thor 7. Capt. America 8. Agent Carter (*) •[@-Agent Carter] 9. Avengers 10. Item 47 (*) •[%-Cloak and dagger] •[@-Defenders saga] 11. Capt. America & winter soldier 12. Thor: dark world •[A@-Agents of shield S1:E8] •[A@-AOS S1:E1-5] 13. Iron man 3 •[A@-AOS S1:E6] 14. All hail the king (*) 15. Guardians of the galaxy 16. Avengers: age of ultron •[A@-AOS S1:E9] 17. Ant man •[A@-AOS S1:E7] 18. Capt. America: civil war •[A@-AOS S1:E10-11] 19. Black panther 20. Spider man: homecoming 21. Guardians of the galaxy 2 22. Dr. Strange 23. Thor: ragnarok 24. Infinity war 25. Ant man & the wasp 26. Capt. Marvel 27. Endgame ---after tony saga--- 28. Spider man: far from home 29. Thor: love and thunder 30. Falcon and the winter soldier 31. Black widow 32. Hawkeye 33. Guardians of the galaxy: xmas special 34. Guardians of the galaxy 3 35. Echo 36. Shang-chi 37. She hulk 38. Wakanda forever 39. Secret invasion 40. Moon knight 41. Werewolf by night 42. Wandavision --multiverse saga-- 43. Loki S1 44. What if S:1 45. Quantumania 46. Loki S:2 47. What if S:2 48. Madame web ($-Sonyverse) 49. Venom ($) 50. Into the spider verse ($) 51. Venom 2 ($) •[%-Spider man 1-3] •[%-Amazing Spider Man 1-2] 52. Spider man: no way home 53. Morbius ($) 54. Dr. Strange: multiverse of madness 55. Across the spider verse ($) 56. Ms. Marvel 57. The marvels •[@-X-men 96] 58. X-men 97 •[%-Fox X-men saga] 59. Deadpool 60. Deadpool 2 •[%-Fox Daredevil] •[%-Elektra] •[%-Fox Punisher] •[%-Fox Fantastic 4 (C. Evans version)] •[%-Rise of the silver surfer] •[%-Blade Trilogy] 61. Wolverine and Deadpool 62. Agatha all along 64. The eternals 65. Capt. America: brave new world(€) 66. Thunderbolts(€) I included Deadpool Into the mcu timeline because he is now a part of the mcu and his three movies add to the continuity of the timeline. I recently added the defenders, fox-verse, and agent Carter as accompanying sagas; to the main timeline. I will add AOS, as soon as I can figure out when those episodes take place. Maybe even…the inhumans, legion and the runaways? The new mutants does not fit in the list. I just watched it and I can’t find any references to the list. Unreleased content as of 10/16/24: 1. Thunderbolts(€) 2. Capt. America: brave new world(€) 3.Blade 4.Fantastic 4 5.Avengers Doomsday 6.Avengers Secret wars 7.Daredevil born again 8.Ironheart 9.Venom: The last dance 10Your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man 11.Marvel zombies 12.Kraven 13.eyes of wakanda 14.Xmen97 S:2 15.What if… S:3 16.Wonder man 17.Spider-man Noir 18.Dr strange 3 €-from the looks of it, these two movies may continue where the eternals left off. We just have to wait and see (update: the eternals is the build up to CA brave new world and Thunderbolts so I placed it after Deadpool and Wolverine). @-stand-alone sagas that are seperate, but still contribute to the continuity of the sacred timeline. %-included for the hell of it. You don’t have to watch the fox movies, but it kinda adds to the WADP and SMNWH cameos. Separately, I also included Cloak and dagger under this category because it mentions Luke Cage and Misty. A-Agents of shield episodes that precede and/or proceed main events in the main MCU timeline Let me know what you think and enjoy the list! P.S. Madam web is trash. I put it there because it introduces the web of events, and opens up the 616 to the Sonyverse; post what if…S:2. May god have mercy on the souls of the people that made this movie.

[@SeriousStriker]

I think the only reason that happened was because of Ike Perlmutter and his belief that "female characters don't sell merchandise", Kevin Feige wanted a Black Widow movie all the way back in 2017 if I remember correctly.

[@pagingdoctorsideburns]

re: the decline of post-credit stinger scenes: I saw someone liken current era MCU to waiting through 15 minutes of credits to be greeted with a scene where someone you've never seen before walks through a doorframe and triumphantly says "it's me, Blorbo"

[@jujubean8870]

The cringey Harry Styles cameo. Disney-Marvel needs to stop with stunt casting.

[@lorenzocampici7885]

Blorbo, the world-famous alien who showed up in a random-ass x-men arc in the 90s

[@Zergei]

And don't forget me, Glup Shitto! 🤓

[@Just.Kidding]

The thing is the characters aren't even super obscure(most of the time), it's just that the people who _would_ recognize them are the people most alienated by all of Marvel's bullshit. It's like a macrocosm of that scene with Scarlet Witch and Prof. X, Black Bolt, Reed Richards, etc. (I dont even remember which movie lol). The scene is predicated on the audience knowing who these characters are, even giving awkward pauses for audience reaction, but the scene totally falls apart if you know _anything_ about these characters, Black Bolt in particular.

[@davidfl4]

💀💀💀

[@MultitaskingGuy]

3:00 the even more surprising thing is that they failed to understand that keeping doomsday as secret until it comes out and people see it would’ve made way more sense than showing us that it’s him

[@mrbrickfan34]

people need hope in marvel again. i think they made the right choice by revealing him at sddc and casting him as doctor doom

[@harrycallaway2778]

Ok yeah but now way more people will watch the movie. I mean they paid the man 95 million so they’re gonna use him to maximize the movie’s BO numbers as much as possible

[@Jane-oz7pp]

​@@mrbrickfan34 except that everyone that knows the character beyond watching the F4 movies from the 2000s hates it.

[@Jane-oz7pp]

​@@harrycallaway2778 I don't think that's true. I think most people think it's a sham and an insult to the character of Tony Stark.

[@AnneHathawayRules]

They had to reveal RDJ as Doctor Doom before the movie came out because they knew if they didn't it would be another Marvels.

[@gdhuertas07]

Great note about Scorsese’s comments touching a nerve. For such innocuous statements, it’s quite telling that folks keep referencing them five years on.

[@davidw.2791]

I had a lot of respect for Mr Marty when he claimed as late as the 2010s that out of all his films, “The Age Of Innocence” was the most violent one.

[@zeronightex]

That's because Scorsese, considered one of the best directors of all time, denied them the cinematic legitimacy they crave. The MCU's not high art, but they want to be treated like it is.

[@Pacbandit13]

​@@zeronightexhe's right they aren't films but simple popcorn flicks

[@parisknight1840]

@@Pacbandit13ugh I don’t like this take. Marvel movies are films they just aren’t usually really good. I don’t like when people conflict art=good. When art is neutral term. Art or films or cinema can be good or bad. It’s can be soulless and made with a limited creative input but it’s still art. Art can be bad. Films can be bad. And being bad doesn’t make them not films. And the reason why Martins comment hits is because it devalues the many many footmen that actually did put in effort to make Marvel movies. Because sure these movies are built solely for money but people still worked on it, it still mean something to someone fuck they people who worked on it maybe take value in it, even if it’s poorly put together. I don’t think he meant that but that’s what “this isn’t cinema” implies, like as if something has no real value based of a subjective opinion on what cinema or “art” even is. Cinema is just the production of visual moving pictures it’s just a neutral term.

[@mg6945]

It’s so funny because at first people tried to deny that him and his opinion were worth anything, but then as they continued to complain about it, that’s just made him more relevant. He’ll always be mentioned in that breath by those very fans who “didn’t know who he was”

[@jjju3]

13:35 such a small thing but thank you saying "crunched vfx artists not given enough time" instead of "bad vxf." the reason marvels vfx has been lacking really is because of mistreatment in the vfx industry and overreliance on cheap labor, not just that vfx itself is a lazy way to do things, and that it can never look good.

[@lampshade6967]

I’ll never understand why they didn’t just stop for a while after endgame to sit and think how they wanted to make the next set of movies

[@timeturnerdust6093]

Money.

[@Tokmurok]

they need more money for bum boys

[@pancakes8670]

​@JohnSmith-rm1poUniconically yes this is the core. Capitalism demands exponential growth, there can never be breaks because that's losing money and the interest of investors.

[@syzygygyoza]

@@pancakes8670 facts

[@14ElmStreet28]

Because they thought they could keep the train

[@opusepynomus9995]

Mads Mikkelsen should have been Doom. They wasted him on a villain whose name no one's remeber.

[@rockjeff87]

Doom never removes the mask so the need to cast a A list powerhouse actor is unnecessary. They should just cast a legendary voice actor or something.

[@timeturnerdust6093]

I mean clearly they don't care about recasting old names - they've got fucking RDJ playing him

[@LordVader1094]

@@rockjeff87 Yeah, he never removes the mask... in the comics. But I doubt Marvel will adhere to that.

[@Ryzard]

@@rockjeff87 AGREED. But they won't, and they will have him either remove his mask or never have it to begin with lmao

[@bigbubble4282]

I would've liked Rami Malek too

[@randomperson-pt3lv]

disney is just creatively bankrupt and it’s really a shame to see the general public reward disney’s apathy and greed with billion-dollar box offices.

[@ayamutakino]

@@randomperson-pt3lv Disney have fucked over some of the greatest filmmakers who ever lived (Edgar Wright, Lord & Miller, Sam Mendes, David Fincher, Paul King, Sarah Polley, to name a few) solely because they prioritised money and IP over genuine creative visions. They have always been creatively bankrupt.

[@randomperson-pt3lv]

@@ayamutakino disney is a corporation and has therefore always been corrupt. but it’s not a coincidence that they’re relying more and more on their branding as a once “high-quality” brand to produce more and more derivative, hackneyed rubbish. i’m not just speaking to the mcu, i’m speaking to the broader trend of Disney producing live-action adaptations, sequels, franchises, and reboots rather than giving new ideas a chance. d23 just happened and not a SINGLE original theater release was announced. all sequels, remakes, and live action slog.

[@francois7355]

If you ever watched The Morning Show season 3. It is the most woke man hating show I've ever seen. I swear who ever wrote that season hated men. Every man in that season was emasculated and humiliated. Once you see it you can't unsee it in all their other shows as well.

[@randomperson-pt3lv]

@@francois7355 what about my op made you think i would at all be sympathetic to your pathetic, insecure delusion?

[@ayamutakino]

@@francois7355 Shut up, man.

[@CuteSkyler]

Martin Scorcese's full quote is actually what all the Marvel fans are like. Marvel films aren't cinema, they're theme park rides, you sit there while the film plays. He means that you aren't thinking while watching the film, you're just there to have fun, but nothing else. Which is, quite literally, what the fans are saying, they're just fun films, they aren't there to stimulate you intellectually but to waste a two hours with your friends.

[@jase276]

Even as a theme park they're awful. It baffled me how people clapped like seals to Thor Love & Thunder. That trash gave me a headache, I wish I had gotten a refund

[@CuteSkyler]

@@jase276 The moment people clap for a film, I leave. I get being invested but there's a limit.

[@marianat1393]

there are good and bad movies from marvel, that's it lol

[@CuteSkyler]

@@marianat1393 The good movies ended around Spider-Man 2 or 3.

[@marianat1393]

@@CuteSkyler for you maybe

[@AustinCDavis]

Deadpool & Wolverine won’t save the MCU because it wasn’t trying to. It was more of a send-off for the Fox Marvel properties than really being connected to the MCU in any real way. It was basically Spider-Man: No Way Home for the X-Men and F4.

[@Angelofo]

Exactly, I didnt like the inclusion of deadpool and wolverine in this for that exact reason.

[@jeanoltt]

It didn't feel that way, specially by just using random cameo characters in a forgettable script, compared to NWH which was structure-wise very much an Spiderman film, with a really good narrative, set pieces and use of the characters in the narrative.

[@nightwish1453]

@@jeanoltt hard to tell which movie does it better as some of the characters in NWH were just along for the ride while the ones in deadpool 3 just fit the atmosphere of being these marvel hero rejects finally getting closure

[@marcen12]

@@nightwish1453 I think NWH was getting closure because, yes its fan service, Toby and Andrew didn't get a fair shake in their last movies.

[@nightwish1453]

@@marcen12 which is fine but you can;t help but you can't ignore andrew's spiderman had a god ending point compared to Toby's lack there of other then his relationship with MJ is ok?

[@gmodlocus7309]

i took a girl on a first date to quantumania and we never had a second date. it probably wasn't due to the quality of the film or anything like that, but i find it pretty funny

[@tome497]

Choosing for a first date to take someone into a dark room to not communicate for 2 and half hours is.... not a great plan.

[@gmodlocus7309]

@@tome497 well we went out to dinner afterwards, we just so happened to both wanna see the movie

[@dolod777]

Bro just don't do it. Watching movies together with gf is cringe af, with a person you don't know - disaster

[@sirsurnamethefirstofhisnam7986]

@@tome497literally sounds ideal to me talking for hours to a stranger in broad daylight is the weird one😂

[@callmepsycho3132]

@@dolod777Saying that watching a movie with your girlfriend is cringe is honestly pretty sad 😭

[@dannypalin9583]

This reminds me of the original plans for the MCU post Endgame. Feige said that, while there would be some movies taking place on Earth, the storyline would go into space. The Fantastic Four, Adam Warlock and the Silver Surfer would be introduced; Galactus would be the overarching villain and James Gunn would take the helm. Then Gunn was fired, rehired and left Marvel for DC after Guardians 3. Feige probably panicked: with Gunn sacked, it meant his plans would have to be cancelled, until he saw the success of Spider-Man: Into the Spider-Verse. Prior to Gunn's dismissal, plot points, such as Loki getting away with the Space Stone, were simply handwaved by the writers saying that they never happened after Captain America returned the Stones. Feige remembered the Ancient One warning Hulk about violating timelines and thought "Well, time travel and alternate realities are cosmic, so it still works!" As a result, Gunn's Cosmic Saga was retooled into the Multiverse Saga. However, remnants of Gunn's original plan were left in. That's why there's a dead Celestial in the ocean; why the Ten Rings are broadcasting a message into space; why Kamala Khan's bangles are connected to the Kree and why Hulk went back to Sakaar. It's probably why the MCU has been a mess of late.

[@yianantonio3980]

ok but like them fully leaning into space/galaxy shenanigans is such a good idea! feels so much more like a natural progression that way instead of immediately putting us through the grandeur multiverse saga. it didn't even need to be as long and big as the infinity saga, it could've just served as an interlude to set up big future events etc

[@salsathemonkey22]

Imagine if the endgame stinger was just galactus casually eating a planet

[@astro837]

Hulk went back to Sakaar?

[@RtXyuFgjiDF2-6]

​@@astro837In she-hulk to get his son.

[@astro837]

@@RtXyuFgjiDF2-6 oh, i never bother to see it 🤣

[@RadTrashed]

Deadpool: “I wanna be an Avenger!” Everyone who for some reason paid attention after endgame: “The Avengers are still… a thing?”

[@scrittle]

He asked to join the Avengers when they were still together since that scene in Deadpool 3 took place shortly after Deadpool 2.

[@starcrossedother]

To me Scorsese’s comments were never meant to be inflammatory or even snobbish. If Disney has anything it’s their ability to design exciting and awe-inspiring experiences, hell one of the things they’re most recognized for are their theme parks. That is exactly what Scorsese was getting at: the expansive CGI, explosive action, quick witted dialogue and concise storytelling all amount to a fun ride. But a film isn’t just a one sided theme park ride and that was exactly Scorsese’s critique.

[@madeliner1682]

I think the specific connotation of "cinema" is what rubbed people the wrong way mostly. We can squabble over which words best separate content that makes you think versus content that makes you not think, but bro has a point either way

[@robertanderson4921]

Scorsese did intend the comments to be snobbish to a degree. He was not attempting to compliment Disney, it was intended as an insult.

[@bigdobiz7378]

This is a great comment ❤

[@mohabalserafe3795]

​@@robertanderson4921a well deserved insult

[@HolyNorthAmericanEmpire]

​@@robertanderson4921 Because the MCU isn't Cinema

[@therush757]

Post Endgame, the movies and shows don’t feel connected. Some do, but most don’t. Even before the Majors firing, you asked yourself “Kang is the big bad I guess?”

[@alice_agogo]

Falcon and Winter Soldier was awesome for the first 2 eps only. And Sharon and the Sokovian. I also liked the teen girl and Kurt Russel's son but other than that it felt like a 2 hour movie 📽 stretched into 6

[@stevenanderson9774]

I think there was only one line that stuck with me and it was "barrelling towards a 2 part avengers event and you don't know what is relevant". Everything pre endgame mattered and influenced the story overall. Now what does matter, what's it all for? What about Wanda vision? To bring vision back? But why?

[@freddiesimmons1394]

It didn't have to be connected if they were at least GOOD

[@JRexRegis]

@@alice_agogo I'll never understand why they made the "villains" of a (basically) captain america movie the flag smashers of all people. It's like making old cap fight the soviets in the cold war or something. Like these are not the right bad guys. A captain america movie needs bad guys who exploit the systems in place in order to twist the world towards their evil ends, such as hydra and the nazis, not a grassroots terrorist organization whose main stated goal is the return of global mutual aid and the dissolution of national borders. This becomes even more blatant when they basically have to write a baby murder moment so you know they're evil for sure, like that's not what a villain for captain america is, that type of hero only works against non-ambiguously evil antagonists

[@Slim333yBoi]

@@JRexRegis How are you gonna actually make Captain America fight corruption? It just doesn't work. Superheroes always uphold the status quo in the end.

[@margheritaberto4864]

My prediction for 2025 marvel movies is there's gonna be at least one skibidi toilet reference

[@Ckoz2829]

You’ll have grown adults saying stuff like “glizzy”, “gyatt”, and “rizz”.

[@karatemaster1144]

I like this prediction

[@KIager]

Fuck you. If this happens, I'm blaming you for materializing it with your mind.

[@quakethedoombringer]

I am surprised Deadpool and Wolverine didn't reference it

[@juannaym8488]

@@quakethedoombringer I suppose the movie was too far into production by the time it - can't even state the name of this cursed medium - became popular

[@user-bh7pj4fz1w]

They make everything a world ending movie there should be no reason Deadpool 3 should have a multiverse ending movie, we want more small scale movies like Spider-Man homecoming

[@two_owls]

It's ironic that the Marvel shows have failed so hard when the comic book story method (endless episodic adventures) is so much more fit for TV than film. Meanwhile Law and Order is just chugging along 30 years later, basically the Marvel/DC of police procedurals lol!

[@PhoebeTheFairy56]

A lot of it probably has to do with the shows getting very few episodes, like most of then have only _eight_

[@Yamainthejar]

@@PhoebeTheFairy56 I agree with this take. So many of the shows to me seemed as if they horribly rushed the finales and could've absolutely used more breathing room to flesh out certain story beats and characters more. The other issue being this frenzy from the MCU to tie everything in to their cinematic universe instead of giving solid standalone stories for the pure merit of telling good stories. Their greed really spoiled so much

[@lunasuji]

This is why Earth's Mightiest Heroes is one of the best Marvel media ever and criminally underrated.

[@jase276]

I'd still watch Law and Order over this, lol. Bring on Liv and Elliot

[@Shay416]

The animated Batman on Prime is freaking amazing. So I know you're right.

[@richpryor9650]

Lets be honest here, they entered their flop era when they started announcing the next 25+ years of planned movies in their extended IP universe.

[@ayamutakino]

And let’s be honest: Edgar Wright is owed a MASSIVE apology.

[@jmn327]

I remember Film Crit Hulk writing an article when Infinity War came out that kind of captured what had been a growing problem: when Thanos snapped all those people away, but you know "well, c'mon, they're all going to come back", FCH wrote something like "it hit me: these aren't films anymore, they're comic books." Comics can be a lot of fun, but cinema is just a different medium with a largely different audience; comics thrive on endless continuity, but traditional cinema does better when there's a defined beginning, middle, and clear ending. I think audiences are just kind of ready for the larger, overarching stories to end; they'll show up for a fun standalone, but the whole Thanos run was a big story, it's over now, on to the next thing, you know? For me, I know the feeling set in when I saw Guardians Vol. 2 in theaters; good film, Gunn's about the only director whose work in the MCU interests me, but I couldn't fight the feeling that it was multiple movies crammed into one, because it was under pressure to ensure all the Guardians characters were in the right places for whenever Infinity War began. I didn't like that feeling; I wanted to explore the GotG characters, setting, and tone more without thinking about "ok, but how will they meet up with Thor?" or anything like that.

[@juanyanez8156]

Tbf saying "they're comic books" is also a disservice towards comic fans since endless continuity is a major editorial problem and most of the fanbase does not like it.

[@uchihabomber1296]

@@juanyanez8156 I agree, cuz yeah comic books literally can't change their status quo at all so any death in a comic book holds no value to me because we know they come back always which is unfortunate. I do feel like the movies have the chance to actually make that change for their deaths to really happen. Then again those other comic book fans hate any kind of change so it may not ever be possible to happen effectively

[@jmn327]

@@juanyanez8156 That's fair, though even shorter run comics can still run multiple years - unless a writer goes in with a strong arc they intend to open and close the title with, the nature of monthly comics is to just kind of keep coming at you with new material again and again, whereas cinema is so much more contained within its runtime.

[@juanyanez8156]

@@jmn327 Yeah, at this point the best point of approach to a series is just to take a single run as a self contained unit, since the status quo will always come back and one writer's decision will likely be undone by either the next one or editorial.

[@NotaWalrus1]

I think that's an uncharacteristically bad take from Film Crit Hulk, because that applies to basically any eleventh hour in any movie. Pretty much all popcorn flicks involve some moment where all seems lost, you know: "how are the heroes gonna get out of this one?", but we all know the good guys will win somehow. Some Checkov's guns will fire, some clever twists will occur, a character will come in guns blazing and save the day, whatever. It's part of the basic structure of the popcorn-y action movie, and it doesn't stop the movie being enjoyable. Infinity War just happens to drag that eleventh hour between it and its sequel (which isn't unique at all, it's rather common in TV series and some movie franchises), but it doesn't make either it or Endgame any weaker. That's just a basic trapping of the genre.

[@johncunningham1889]

I think Superhero movies are just another time-capsuled genre like the Western of the 50s-60s, or the Testostetone Action movies of the 80s. It’s clear this genre is coming to an end. We will still see them but they will never hold the place they did in the 2010s. And in 20 years they will likely be gone entirely.

[@ayamutakino]

The genre ended 10 years ago when Edgar Wright left Ant-Man.

[@TheMrGmk]

I mean Scorsese wasn’t wrong. Marvel movies always had been like a big fun rollercoaster. We’ve all enjoyed those movies, and watching endgame after 10 years of build up was incredible, but let’s not pretend they’re more than what they are

[@TheWrestlingful]

@@evanrutledge-sz4yo Scorsese kinda summed it up though. It's the human experience. There's nothing really inherently "Human" about these MCU stories. I loved these movies when I was teen, and I occasionally revisit PHASE 1-3. But they are not really "films". God, I hate using it in this term because I come off as a dick. Good guys are good, and bad guys are bad. There's no nuance. No stakes other than external. Why is Joker or Dark Knight accepted and not MCU? Cause those movies blur the line. Batman becomes essentially a police state allegory in order to "stop" Joker but in the end Joker proved his point when Harvey Dent snapped and killed resulting in Batman having to sacrifice himself in order to save Gotham. Joker discusses real topics such as classism and how that divide creates movements, it discusses the failed system and how it creates it's own monsters. In Deadpool and Wolverine they say fuck and had cameos of characters the core base hated when their movies came out but now pretend to like because now they are in the brand they like (similar to facist or cult followers eeriely). That's all. Captain America Winter Soldier they have "commentary" but it's never explored or deconstructed. It's just "SHIELD BAD BECAUSE HYDRA". Nothing more. The only one that kinda comes close is Infinity War, and even then...it's still just "Purple guy bad because he wants to kill people" and does not really dive in to "why" he believes in genocide. Instead they only offer "my planet died". That's it. They never discuss the moral implications of genocide, or the after affects of genocide. It's just scooted aside. Black Panther is close too...but in the end Killmonger is just "bad". There's never any discussion of the moral or even political ramifications of Killmonger's rule. There's no mention of how the nation of Wakanda felt, there's never any internal conflict that T"Challa has other than "Keep vibranium in Wakanda". It's just "stop outsider from using vibranium" with pretty little scenes that have social commentary to strategically make people think it's "cinema" when it's just a fun popcorn flick with a little more juice than the other popcorn films. Like what lengths or flaws does T'Challa have outside of "following daddy's footsteps"? He knows "Killmonger is wrong", he is never questioned why it's important to keep Vibranium away from the world, and only comes to that conclusion because he learns of Killmonger's sob story....that's it. He isn't moved. He didn't go to America or witness it, or experience the inequality of Wakanda (Which there most likely is given it's. monarchy). It's just "T'Challa good guy, and Killmonger is right but still bad". The Dark Knight and Joker do dive in to muddy topics, deconstructs them, and still have superheroics while being stories about flawed human beings in a complex world . MCU? Just heroics. Not a diss. Just what is. Good guys good, and bad guys are bad.

[@TheMrGmk]

@@evanrutledge-sz4yo I wouldn’t call it snobbish if it isn’t denigratory, I loved those movies but when you are also passionate for cinema as an art form the difference of intents and form is pretty clear. As you say there are definitely different opinions about the matter, dictated by, I’d like to suggest, everyone’s different perception of what cinema is related to different cultural backgrounds. ps: the one thing I find concerning is when some people call Scorsese, a director that has and is constantly proving his relevance, almost a senile man. He has an understanding of the language that goes beyond imagination, and I find it baffling seeing him addressed as an aging man that “can’t conceive thor talking to a space raccoon”. Like sci-fi and fantasy was invented yesterday. Imho he couldn’t care less about the setting, it’s what the characters do and say, what the themes are, the message is, how the medium is used to convey those contents, and a lot of other nuanced stuff that make the difference to him.

[@boredomkiller99]

​​@@TheMrGmk​I think it is more that 95% of people don't actually give a flying **** about cinema. Very and I mean I mean very few people go into movies looking for some artistic value, they just want to be entertained and have something to talk about. So labeling or dismissing movies as cinema or not cinema is pointless at best and snobbish and worst

[@TheMrGmk]

@@boredomkiller99 You paint quite the sad picture, it’s probably true tho and it’s so disheartening. I wouldn’t know as I’m lucky enough to have people in my life that like to talk about cinema in an all around way, from chill sunday movies to niche east european stuff lol. It’s nice to watch a movie with someone and speculate about the hidden meanings, trying to look out for something more, just as it is to watch an awful horror movie and relax. Imho there are different moments for different kinds of stuff, but if you’re not interested in artistry why even care about what a filmmaker thinks of what you watch. I mean if you’re limiting yourself to only one side of an art form because you don’t care, you don’t have the ground to participate in an argument, it’s not snobbish it’s just the reality of the situation. And imho you shouldn’t even have the need to feel attacked because you didn’t care in the first place.

[@MikeySkywalker]

Why do you think you and Scorsese feel the need to cheapen them? I am actually curious what drives this.

[@iziah2161]

I wonder how long the nostalgia pandering will last for them, it seems like a coverup to the underlying problem of the current mcu: middling-bad storytelling.

[@SirLightsOut99]

It'll probably last a while. Today's Disney is nothing but nostalgia pandering. They will recycle the same things again and again to get butts in seats if that means they never have to hire a new creative who might let them down.

[@stellviahohenheim]

They should make self contained movies first then link it all up

[@uchihabomber1296]

Yeah the nostalgia will probably end in Secret Wars since it seems like that will be the final Multiversal movie

[@mg6945]

Secret Wars will for sure have Jackman, Maguire, Bana, Snipes, and Gruffudd all show up in a shot for nerds to go insane over. And then that will probably be the peak

[@uchihabomber1296]

@@mg6945 your definitely right I think that’ll be like the official last hurrah for those characters before maybe the MCU reboots after secret wars

[@Bale4Bond]

Robert Downey jr‘s return to Marvel is an admission of failure by both him and the studio in regards to their trajectories.

[@samuelbarber6177]

It’s really sad considering he won an Oscar this year. I really would prefer both Downey and Marvel do new things.

[@pie6088]

I wouldn't call getting paid 50 million to do two movies a failure

[@Bale4Bond]

@@pie6088 It certainly isn‘t from a financial standpoint. It just happens to be a failure when it comes to creativity and dignity.

[@manuelquintana3401]

Nah bro, he won an Oscar. He knows, we know he can be a good actor. He’s just getting a bigger bag I can respect that

[@strikerbowls791]

RDJ's whole life is a failure

[@SplitFinn]

Yeah I agree. The reason the reaction to Scorsese’s comments was so visceral is because deep down, everyone knew he was right.

[@ayamutakino]

Nah Edgar Wright was right.

[@MAJ0R_TOM]

Marvel heavily curtailed creativity from 2010-2019, with Edgar Wright's Ant-Man being the clearest example because it doesn't exist. It looks like Marvel loosened the reins on the restrictive big franchise direction after Endgame, but they empowered a lot of incompetent people who didn't have stories to tell. The effect of this anarchy is, as stated by the video author, cameoporn and RDJ as Dr. Doom directed by the Russos. This period not only damaged the profits, but the health of the brand, so Disney will simply never allow creative freedom like this to occur so broadly ever again, and most fans will cheer it on the whole way.

[@enotsnavdier6867]

Thor 4 will still be a mystery to me tbh. Cause Taika made some really amazing films outside of the MCU, and Thor Ragnarok was great for Marvel standards. But seemingly, when given the most creative freedom possible, that's what he made???

[@ayamutakino]

I’ve always viewed Edgar Wright as the director who warned us about Disney’s toxic influence on the film industry instead of Martin Scorsese and for good reason.

[@kbreezy1581]

Post-endgame doesn't feel like they loosened the reigns. The movies are stylistically indistinguishable aside from maybe Multiverse of madness which still feels like sam raimi was fighting a losing battle for control. It doesn't feel like creative freedom to me when over 30 rewrites are ordered for one movie. Do you know how many directors left the upcoming blade movie due to creative differences? I don't think any of the creatives involved got to fully showcase their talents

[@kbreezy1581]

Post-endgame doesn't feel like they loosened the reigns. The movies are stylistically indistinguishable aside from maybe Multiverse of madness which still feels like sam raimi was fighting a losing battle for control. It doesn't feel like creative freedom to me when over 30 rewrites are ordered for one movie. Do you know how many directors left the upcoming blade movie due to creative differences? I don't think any of the creatives involved got to fully showcase their talents

[@ayamutakino]

@@kbreezy1581 Excuses can be made about Marvel all they want but at the end of the day, they fucked up by not giving directors creative freedom (Guardians was the only exception). Edgar Wright’s departure from Ant-Man was when Marvel was having WAY too much control over the MCU, and that will always be the start of the flop era.

[@samuelbarber6177]

Hot take here: my favourite MCU movie is Captain America: The First Avenger. Compared to everything else, especially now, it really feels special to me. Maybe it’s my partiality to World War 2 movies (the Indiana Jones films in particular being an obvious point of comparison), but so many years later. Good God it’s something different. It doesn’t just with a big CGI fight scene with washed out colours in an indistinct pit (I mean, Sergio Leone ended a movie with three guys standing in a circle and it was awesome, please stop). Compared to recent offerings… it feels like an actual movie, with a story built more on intrigue and human action than just a bunch of CGI powers.

[@EyebrowCinema]

@@samuelbarber6177 it's not my favourite but I definitely like it. Good, pulpy charm, nails the character and his origin story, fun cast. Very likable movie.

[@jmn327]

I think where it works best is that it actually just feels like a workable standalone movie (I know, it obviously ends with a sequel/franchise hook, but I mean like 95% of the run time). That overriding sense that any MCU film you're watching is just setting up whatever comes next kind of hurts the experience for me, so those early ones where you still kind of associate "super hero movie" with something like Batman '89 or Raimi's Spider-man hit a bit differently.

[@samuelbarber6177]

@@jmn327 that’s very true. And I think really does still hold up in that regard just by virtue of having a mostly unique cast and tone. Being a period set war film (not to mention a period so far removed from the rest of the franchise) and the fact that most of the characters either don’t appear outside of the film or are mostly cameos like Red Skull in Infinity War (aside from Bucky) really does give it a unique feel that it can be overjoyed without much of the franchise baggage.

[@KennethConnally-np9it]

Fun fact: though Raiders and Last Crusade have Nazis as the antagonists, only the most recent Indiana Jones film has any part of the story (the prologue with the unsettling CG Indy) take place during WWII.

[@davidw.2791]

I have one narrative nitpick for The First Avenger: The main movie should have ended with “Cap inspires generations of boys and girls to play with Trash Can Lid Shields”, then cut to the main end credits that were using WWII PROPAGANDA ART for crying out loud, and only in the mid or post credits scene do they reveal that Cap was dug out, alive, and in the year of our lord 2011.

[@fighterdurden]

Disney could just recast Kang with another actor. It would have been a far better solution than dumping the entire Kang plot and bring back RDJ.

[@cryoraptora303tm2]

They could have, but the Kang storyline was getting way too convoluted for the average consumer to follow. Better to bin and start with a different big bad, in the world of terrible storywriting.

[@DoctorWu23]

In a dark way Majors screwing the pooch was a boon for Disney because I don’t think anyone was getting excited for it. Doom is 100% more recognizable and RDJ will likely do a good job with it as he always does. Remains to be seen if the movies are good though.

[@annabelcunningham2848]

Honestly wasn't digging his acting or the plot anyways, as a pretty hardcore fan. I was surprised how hard they went in on it bc it was bleh

[@Ashbrash1998]

Part of me wonders if the real reason was because they had nowhere to take it. Like the Multiverse stuff hasn't worked well for them so why not scrap it all and start over?

[@TheMetastasia]

>Spoiler< In deadpool, they even brought back Chris Evans as Johnny Storm which means two different people can look identical and even made the Joke that Wolverine can be an entirely different looking Person (like Herny Cavill). What's the problem letting their Multidimensional Main Villian with different variants be played ba an entirely different actor? My guess is they were not behind the whole Kang idea anzmore and wanted to bring the big cheese. At the same time, they didn't want Dr. Doom be played by a new cast the people might not like. So they will make a reverse Superior Ironman plot in which Tony Starrk became evil instead of Doom become Ironman after Starrk went into a coma.

[@martinoheat1712]

Let's not forget that Steven Spielberg in 2015, also predicted that superhero movies are dying out in the same way Westerns are. These movies are basically about corporate greed, cashcows which is not about a complex story lines, with evolving characters which play to actor's acting prowess.

[@ayamutakino]

Edgar Wright left Ant-Man because Disney fucked over his vision and THAT is a greater indictment of Disney’s influence more than Scorsese’s speech.

[@MrBrezelwurst]

What annoys me the most about what they're doing with Shang-Chi is exactly that... they're not doing anything with him. No announcement for a 2nd movie for a pretty long time, no cameo outside in other projects, nothing... not even his own movie really felt connected to the overall MCU besides the mention of the blip and a 5 second Abomination cameo... might as well have been a standalone movie (And no, I'm not saying they shouldve hamfisted cameos into the movie, just... make it feel like it is part of the same universe, please)

[@TheMaestroMizerous]

Heck, he was meant to be a key figure in Kang Dynasty but now that Kang is gone he's got nothing for him.

[@danielshore1457]

​@@TheMaestroMizerous with his weird space ring things they shoukd have focused on galactus instead of the multiverse like it was right there and allows easy transition of like fantastic 4 and dr doom and all that stuff. They were trying to open up the multiverse when like their own universe hasn't been fully explored.

[@delusion5867]

In the TV department, I could say the same for moon knight. As mixed as the reception to that show is, neither hide nor hair has been mentioned of him since the show was released. Personally, I liked the show and it feeling mostly unconnected was a bonus since it didn't have to be dragged down by MCU baggage but that isn't really a good thing for an MCU project.

[@Drums_of_Liberation]

And that's perfectly fine. The actor is a smug little prick so the less we see of him the better. Plus the character himself was boring. Dude was outshines by freaking Akwafina of all people.

[@jase276]

Nobody cares about Shang-Chi, that's why, lol. I mean, there's talk of him being in the new Spider-Man film but who cares

[@dawashingmachine9158]

I’ve said this many times before, the MCU feels like a ttrpg campaign that’s gone on way too long and should have ended several sessions ago. The big bad’s been defeated, all the main characters have completed their arcs, the only thing left to do is wander around doing side quests. Maybe the dm will try to introduce a new even bigger bad, but it’ll never stick like the first one did. Half the players don’t show up anymore, and those who do are visibly no longer interested and clearly want to do something else

[@zenvendaboi4217]

The problem is that the MCU is essentially a brand. Stories are expected to end. Brands aren't.

[@JupiterTarts]

Spot on man. Endgame had a sense of finality to it. It was literally called Endgame. If they'd slowed down the amount of content after that instead of churned out more schlock at faster speeds, we'd have at least had more time to savor the one shots and side quests.

[@kaisersoymilk6912]

​@@zenvendaboi4217Marvel could still be a brand even without franchises. Like it was Vertigo a couple years back, they produced quite a lot of bangers, but the series were contained, once one was over it was over.

[@raion.xiaoshi]

What really boggles the mind is the fact that Disney knew that Endgame would be the end to the major arc, so what needs to come naturally next is another slow build up to the next campaign, just like how the MCU built things up to Thanos in the first place, or like the time our party was done fighting Tiamat and then we got invitations to Barovia for Strahd. It's not impossible to continue the gravy train if you have some patience, but I guess there's no more room for patience with the mouse 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@kirbyjoe7484]

Martin Scorsese's criticism didn't kick up a hornet's nest because he is Martin Scorsese, it was simply because he was right. Outside of a few stand out movies, the MCU has been a series of mediocre, special effects driven, PG13, assembly line blockbusters. With just a couple of exceptions, they have not risen above the status of popcorn flicks. They are tasty, and fun to consume in the moment, but ultimately they get old quickly, leaving you feeling unsatisfied and a bit sick if you over indulge in them.

[@dohnjoe4516]

Na. It kicked up a hornet's nest cus journos used it to meet their article quotas and even dumber interviewers kept asking those in the MCU about it. Let's not act like Marty's opinion can kill films. It's simply not true

[@JC_923]

I agree. When his criticism was out, it was reported by every film groups on facebook in my country and pretty much every comment I saw agreed with him. People never thought that highly of MCU movies beyond their entertainment value. And after 10 years of the same thing, it stopped being entertaining

[@14ElmStreet28]

How about Logan?

[@MikeySkywalker]

The thing is, most people do not agree with you. The facts also don't line up with what you said. If Marvel is flopping that means every movie Scorsese ever made was a flop. Which is actually where his problem lies. He was mad people were not going to see his movies and were going to see Marvel movies, so like you, he felt the need to put other people down, in order to lift himself up. It is very common. It baffles me how much some people want to say others have failed. To the point where you are all ignoring the fact that Marvel movies still do far better than any others. The hate you all claim comes at you from Marvel fans is actually just your hate projected. things

[@leonardo9259]

Bro if a random said it on the street nobody would've batted an eye. People cared because Martin Fcing Scorcese said it, and most serious film directors silently agreed. The only other controversial director that could've said it was Tarantino but he was busy laying low while his rich Jew producer friend was in court

[@kye698]

Did mans just say that Sam Raimi’s Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness is one of the best films in the entire mcu?

[@NorthernRealmJackal]

I didn't think so either. But I gotta admit - it was probably mostly ruined by the nostalgia bait and cameo sludge, which was clearly studio mandated. I can see how he feels the need to recognise the Sam Raimi bits underneath - the bits which would've made up a good movie, had we not inhabited the darkest mass-media-timeline.

[@stevengaines5856]

He did, yes.

[@whoisdamaris]

RDJ coming back to MCU for money again, like he doesn't already have all the money in the world, is just hilarious to me. My man, you have an Oscar, get some grip ffs.

[@epfns]

you can't blame rdj if disney came to him and waved millions in his face to come back towards acting in another interesting role, it's really disney/marvels fault for not having creativity in casting

[@seraby7151]

I would loose all shame and sold my soul if I was offered $80M let's be real.

[@gojosensei6501]

Never enough money pal

[@alice_agogo]

Still prefer Julian McMahon

[@pancakes8670]

I remember him saying "it's good to act in real movies again" after Oppenheimer, in response to leaving Marvel Guess he didn't really care

[@liquidrufus]

I just rewatched Captain America Winter Soldier again last night. Crazy to see a Marvel film firing on all cylinders compared to what we have now.

[@AquaticBagpipe]

And a compelling story that was just about two dudes. Not impossible-to-quantify multiverse nonsense.

[@kg1392]

The pre-Disney+ shows were so much better. Agents of SHIELD, Agent Carter, Jessica Jones, Luke Cage, Cloak & Dagger, and Daredevil were some of my favourite aspects of the MCU. They had some bad shows like Inhumans, Iron Fist season 1 (the second season is actually great), and The Defenders, but it was a generally pretty entertaining era for Marvel Television. I think them trying to wipe away that corner of their universe was one of the biggest mistakes they made. These Disney+ shows have a much larger budget but none of the charm. Season 4 of Agents of SHIELD had a somewhat similar plot to Secret Invasion. Yet, AoS was fantastic and Secret Invasion might be the worse thing the MCU ever made. I'm cautiously optimistic for their new Daredevil series. Charlie Cox and Vincent Donofrio are so good that I have a little bit of hope.

[@Elora445]

As long as Disney is behind anything, it will probably be a lot more shallow than you think. Disney has most definitely lost its heart. Their creations, no matter if they are series or films, most feel so soulless. Can't Howard Ashman just be reborn already? Disney really, really need to listen to creatives like him again. Sadly, it seems they have stopped doing so. Makes me wonder about those few and far between things that do get greenlit. Those happy accidents, so to speak. How hard did those people had to fight for them to get made?

[@kujojotarostandoceanman2641]

Because they don't work for marvel lol, daredevil director is famous for not being restrained by marvel and outright ignore and oppose them

[@ijneb1248]

Daredevil is my favorite thing the MCU has ever made, especially season 3

[@Rtd976]

My marvel timeline: All numbered content is the MCU/sacred timeline. Those are the movies, shows and shorts that you want to watch in order. Anything marked with a “•” is additional/optional content for the advanced fan. The key to the symbols are located at the bottom of the list. the infinity saga is loopers and the following sagas are all me --infinity saga-- 1. Iron man 2.iron man 2 3.Incredible Hulk 4. The consultant (*marvel one shot) 5. Funny thing happened (*) 6. Thor 7. Capt. America 8. Agent Carter (*) •[@-Agent Carter] 9. Avengers 10. Item 47 (*) •[%-Cloak and dagger] •[@-Defenders saga] 11. Capt. America & winter soldier 12. Thor: dark world •[A@-Agents of shield S1:E8] •[A@-AOS S1:E1-5] 13. Iron man 3 •[A@-AOS S1:E6] 14. All hail the king (*) 15. Guardians of the galaxy 16. Avengers: age of ultron •[A@-AOS S1:E9] 17. Ant man •[A@-AOS S1:E7] 18. Capt. America: civil war •[A@-AOS S1:E10-11] 19. Black panther 20. Spider man: homecoming 21. Guardians of the galaxy 2 22. Dr. Strange 23. Thor: ragnarok 24. Infinity war 25. Ant man & the wasp 26. Capt. Marvel 27. Endgame ---after tony saga--- 28. Spider man: far from home 29. Thor: love and thunder 30. Falcon and the winter soldier 31. Black widow 32. Hawkeye 33. Guardians of the galaxy: xmas special 34. Guardians of the galaxy 3 35. Echo 36. Shang-chi 37. She hulk 38. Wakanda forever 39. Secret invasion 40. Moon knight 41. Werewolf by night 42. Wandavision --multiverse saga-- 43. Loki S1 44. What if S:1 45. Quantumania 46. Loki S:2 47. What if S:2 48. Madame web ($-Sonyverse) 49. Venom ($) 50. Into the spider verse ($) 51. Venom 2 ($) •[%-Spider man 1-3] •[%-Amazing Spider Man 1-2] 52. Spider man: no way home 53. Morbius ($) 54. Dr. Strange: multiverse of madness 55. Across the spider verse ($) 56. Ms. Marvel 57. The marvels •[@-X-men 96] 58. X-men 97 •[%-Fox X-men saga] 59. Deadpool 60. Deadpool 2 •[%-Fox Daredevil] •[%-Elektra] •[%-Fox Punisher] •[%-Fox Fantastic 4 (C. Evans version)] •[%-Rise of the silver surfer] •[%-Blade Trilogy] 61. Wolverine and Deadpool 62. Agatha all along 64. The eternals 65. Capt. America: brave new world(€) 66. Thunderbolts(€) I included Deadpool Into the mcu timeline because he is now a part of the mcu and his three movies add to the continuity of the timeline. I recently added the defenders, fox-verse, and agent Carter as accompanying sagas; to the main timeline. I will add AOS, as soon as I can figure out when those episodes take place. Maybe even…the inhumans, legion and the runaways? The new mutants does not fit in the list. I just watched it and I can’t find any references to the list. Unreleased content as of 10/16/24: 1. Thunderbolts(€) 2. Capt. America: brave new world(€) 3.Blade 4.Fantastic 4 5.Avengers Doomsday 6.Avengers Secret wars 7.Daredevil born again 8.Ironheart 9.Venom: The last dance 10Your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man 11.Marvel zombies 12.Kraven 13.eyes of wakanda 14.Xmen97 S:2 15.What if… S:3 16.Wonder man 17.Spider-man Noir 18.Dr strange 3 €-from the looks of it, these two movies may continue where the eternals left off. We just have to wait and see (update: the eternals is the build up to CA brave new world and Thunderbolts so I placed it after Deadpool and Wolverine). @-stand-alone sagas that are seperate, but still contribute to the continuity of the sacred timeline. %-included for the hell of it. You don’t have to watch the fox movies, but it kinda adds to the WADP and SMNWH cameos. Separately, I also included Cloak and dagger under this category because it mentions Luke Cage and Misty. A-Agents of shield episodes that precede and/or proceed main events in the main MCU timeline Let me know what you think and enjoy the list! P.S. Madam web is trash. I put it there because it introduces the web of events, and opens up the 616 to the Sonyverse; post what if…S:2. May god have mercy on the souls of the people that made this movie.

[@Lucios1995]

"Until you're 90." 11:05 Deadpool's scene with Happy pretty much shows that Deadpool can't be part of the Avengers, for me because they're obviously not going to rate the movies R just for him to be included

[@jordansrhoads]

In hindsight, I feel like Scorsese was basically saying, "These aren't art, they aren't made to be works of art, they're made for entertainment and to make money before anything else." And honestly, he's not wrong. Oppenheimer and most Nolan films are works of art, or what Scorsese would call "cinema." Edit: For those that can't read. Not once does this ^ imply that "cinema" or "art" (however you may define it) isn't made to make money. What I meant was making money is *secondary* to the quality of the film/story. Also, if you think Nolan doesn't make banger films (Except Tenet that I can agree was "pretentious") please just grab a juice box and a blankie and go watch the exciting explosions of a Michael Bay transformers film so your dopamine depleted brain doesn't have to work so hard.

[@TheDanishGuyReviews]

That's fair, but I'd say by that metric, Scorcese hates fun. Marvel does comedy and jokes above almost anything else, aside from maybe action.

[@m.ceniza4688]

Can art only ever be serious?

[@draugno7]

But it's worth noting those films can go in the other direction - stretching too long to make a point, that's what I felt at times in Oppenheimer and Killers of the flower moon, even Revenant. Then there are films such as A good person and Midsommar that are just perfect (or maybe I like Florence Pugh's acting too much) 😂

[@hoordeyah]

this some deranged commie take lol. "oppenheimer wasn't made to make money!!! it was a work of art!!" sounds hipster and cringe tbh. dubbing something that just happens to be popular that everyone wants to see as "not art" means that you actually don't know what art is lmao. to say the most brainless MCU is devoid of artistic direction is deranged.

[@randomusername3873]

Saying that Avengers or guardians of the galaxy is not cinema is delusional😂

[@WTFidontknow1]

I feel like Doom should’ve had a new and upcoming actor. Maybe someone that did really well in indie movies making a debut in Marvel as their intro to an A-tier acting career in general. Someone with no drama in the spotlight that barely anyone knew or didn’t know they knew. Idk who’d that’d be, but they should’ve been Doom.

[@ironman1458]

Cold take, but yes

[@liamphibia]

We never knew Jonathan Majors before Kang y'know

[@MrWizardGG]

You guys are stupid. Robert Downey Jr made marvel films what they are today and is perfect at playing geniuses like Doom. Idiots.

[@AllStarJD]

I don't mind RDJ as Doom because I have faith that they will at least do something with the gimmick of him being Doom.

[@jase276]

@@liamphibia He was everywhere before Kang, he was in a whole ahh tv show before Kang

[@NeverSaySandwich1]

We're still in the flop era, Deadpool and Wolverine barely counts as a MCU movie, it's more of a Fox movie since it barely has anything to do with the MCU storyline. Captain America 4 with all its production issues has about a 400 million dollar budget. Guaranteed flop

[@escalatingbarbarism5096]

It's a flash-in-the-pan like No Way Home. The specific success it had isn't sustainable and it sets back the clock on being able to have a new, permanent Wolverine or really any new X-men. It's the exact same problem as bringing back the Raimi Spider-man villains, sure they're great, but we should've had a NEW recurring Green Goblin specific to Tom Holland by now, and using Dafoe again as a band-aid just muddies the waters.

[@salmanazhar88]

Are there any MCU storylines?

[@NobleRaider2747]

No it doesn't. Who did you get that from? World of Reel isn't a trustworthy source.

[@Volvagia1927]

@@salmanazhar88 The closest thing I can identify to a "main plot" in Phase 4&5 would be Loki S1, What If...? S1, Quantumania (kinda), Loki S2, What If...? S2, Deadpool & Wolverine, actually. Yeah...the TVA and The Watcher. If you're only watching the movies, you've seen, MAX, two (probably one) of the six instalments of main plot line. Phase 1-3? 22 movies, and only movies, 11 of which I'd say compose the main plot line. Phase 4&5? 25 currently released instalments, between movies and TV, and I can only point to 6 that aren't subplot stories.

[@JS-bu4xt]

@@escalatingbarbarism5096this is silly. Using plots from the comics and taking advantage of the possibilities is far more interesting than just retelling the first three Spider-Man films. This videos thesis only works if Spider-Man was a bad film, and for this is why he says he didn’t like it.

[@tomldickinson]

One thing you’ve overlooked is the economics - this decade started with a pandemic, followed by wars and a cost of living crisis. 2016-2019 was a very different time. People just don’t go to the cinema as much.

[@juannaym8488]

additionally, cinema has become so expensive. Even without concessions, just tickets can cost you a good 15-20 bucks for blockbusters

[@marknelson55]

Costs and the pandemic undermined theatres, and in streaming, there are just too many streaming services to meet people's varied preferences, and as physical media has been undermined, that has left piracy as the only one-stop-shop for people to find movies without paying exorbitant prices during an affordability crisis. The MCU and other movies would actually benefit from something like Blockbuster returning, or even Netflix returning to its near monopoly of the past. Getting small royalties or something from another company's distribution network is better than having products pirated, so really all these companies are suffering from their greed in having to control all stages of the chain themselves (vertical integration). And yet, markets are getting so much bigger with China and other countries historically not consuming US entertainment media, that they aren't actually suffering that much because of the economies of scale.

[@Ashbrash1998]

Another thing I think is that people do not wanna to go to a movie theater unless they feel it's worth it. And they won't do that until reviews come in or they feel it's worth it.

[@Pllayer064]

The pandemic was basically over and they just started pumping out these shows for streaming services. I feel like that goes to show how slow to change the corporate behemoth of Disney is.

[@marknelson55]

@@Pllayer064 Shows take a long time to produce, regardless of which corporation is bankrolling them. According to Wikipedia, Wandavision, The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, Loki, What if...?, and Hawkeye all began production around September 2018, and were only meant to serve Disney+, not to entertain people stuck at home during lockdowns. Of course, shows like that take longer to complete with all the cgi, but given how harmful it is to animators and the finished product for cgi to be rushed, a better company would probably have taken longer to develop them, also taking the time to fine tune their plotting and screenplays.

[@kellylingro3288]

The sad thing is RDJ as Dr Doom has potential as an interesting Big Bad of the multiverse saga, but casting him was clearly just a Hail Mary

[@DestroyerSupreme]

Yeah, but doom is an intrinsecally complex character, you can't just throw him in one movie and pretend everyone knows his story. It need like 3-4 films to properly establish his reasons, motives and methods... And I'm afraid Marvel won't do that and they'll just shit the bed like they did with Kang. Before we knew Thanos a lot of movie passed, I don't think Marvel understand that a villain has to be properly set up.

[@Jane-oz7pp]

Being Romani is important to the character, so no, it doesn't have potential.

[@indigoskies5434]

@@Jane-oz7ppthe Romani heritage of these characters stay getting written out

[@TheDukeOfTumwater]

IMO, the MCU would have been best served by taking a break after Endgame: give the creatives in charge of the franchise time to figure out where to go next and incorporate all the new characters they regained the rights to (X-Men, Fantastic Four, etc.), and whet the audiences appetite for more adventures. Unfortunately, they did the exact opposite of that, and just kept going full steam ahead without giving themselves time to breathe and barraging the audiences with an overwhelming, endless stream of movies and TV shows with no clear sense of direction. Pretty much the only guaranteed hits for them at this point are the movies that appeal to a sense of nostalgia for past media, rather than charting a new course through unknown territory. Personally, I think being too risk-averse will cost them in the long run.

[@HimekoIzayoi]

You would think they would already have a plan for phase 4 before launching it.

[@TheDukeOfTumwater]

@@HimekoIzayoi Let’s be real: Marvel has never had some grand master plan for their movies, and was making up a lot of it as they went along.

[@MsIvalane]

At the end of the day, marvel's disney overlords demanded CONTENT for D+, so this decline was inevitable

[@TipoIrritable]

They are sure taking a time break now.

[@14ElmStreet28]

They realized that and started taking a break. I mean they've only released one movie this year

[@xoferwalken]

The problem with Marvel superfans is that they want to have it both ways. To them, these movies are art and you must respect them as the peak of cinema to the point where very little that deviates from it can be justified to studios, but when you criticize them, they cant tolerate that because hey hey now these are just fun silly movies you're being weird and too serious. You need to pick one, either they're art and the greatest cinema made yet, or they're cinematic junkfood immune from actual critique. Marvel fans want it both ways to fit their argument at any given time. That's why what Marty said struck a nerve.

[@JohnJacobSchmidtt]

Seems like everybody's expecting Schindler's list. I don't know why all these fans aren't writing their own screenplays if they can do any better.

[@xoferwalken]

@@JohnJacobSchmidtt Who's expecting Shindlers List out of what? Marvel fans and Marvel movies you mean?

[@christianwise637]

To be honest, I think both the fans and the people making these films know that these films are pulpy slop that most wouldn't consider "high art", and I personally don't think there's anything wrong with making or enjoying something like that. But at the same time, they're also resentful of the fact that these films are middle-of-the-road slop that gets frowned on by the likes of Scorsese and the "elite" film critics, because it's preventing them from being "respected" despite having achieved unprecedented box office success. For all their talk about how critics "don't matter" because they're joyless losers who hate fun, these people ultimately still crave validation from these joyless losers, and Scorsese's comments seemed to say to them that they'll never achieve it

[@xoferwalken]

@@christianwise637 I agree essentially though I take some umbrage with you calling Martin Scorsese a "loser" because he's dismayed with studio hesitancy towards greenlighting more high brow cinema in favor of chasing the Marvel/cinematic universe bubble.

[@christianwise637]

@@xoferwalken No I'm not calling Scorsese a loser, I'm referring to how the fanbase likely see him and other critics who take umbrage at the MCU and its dominance of cinemas (probably should've put it in quotes in hindsight)

[@malakine6306]

I think that the problem is just exhaustion. This franchise started in 2008, 16 years ago. People don't like to see the same forever.

[@Bluebox87]

Marvel puts no effort because audiences don't ask for it. They pretend they do, but they don't. They are getting dumber and dumber every year. Multiverse, self-reference, nostalgia, legacy sequel. It's all the same no effort, no consequences crap. I don't even see the point anymore, and haven't for a long time. I used to love comic books and comic books movies. Now I can't stand them.

[@evertonporter7887]

Maybe the generation that watched those movies have now grown up. People do grow out of those movies.

[@ayamutakino]

@@Bluebox87 They’ve been dumber since they burned Edgar Wright’s vision of Ant-Man to the ground.

[@Rtd976]

My marvel timeline: All numbered content is the MCU/sacred timeline. Those are the movies, shows and shorts that you want to watch in order. Anything marked with a “•” is additional/optional content for the advanced fan. The key to the symbols are located at the bottom of the list. the infinity saga is loopers and the following sagas are all me --infinity saga-- 1. Iron man 2.iron man 2 3.Incredible Hulk 4. The consultant (*marvel one shot) 5. Funny thing happened (*) 6. Thor 7. Capt. America 8. Agent Carter (*) •[@-Agent Carter] 9. Avengers 10. Item 47 (*) •[%-Cloak and dagger] •[@-Defenders saga] 11. Capt. America & winter soldier 12. Thor: dark world •[A@-Agents of shield S1:E8] •[A@-AOS S1:E1-5] 13. Iron man 3 •[A@-AOS S1:E6] 14. All hail the king (*) 15. Guardians of the galaxy 16. Avengers: age of ultron •[A@-AOS S1:E9] 17. Ant man •[A@-AOS S1:E7] 18. Capt. America: civil war •[A@-AOS S1:E10-11] 19. Black panther 20. Spider man: homecoming 21. Guardians of the galaxy 2 22. Dr. Strange 23. Thor: ragnarok 24. Infinity war 25. Ant man & the wasp 26. Capt. Marvel 27. Endgame ---after tony saga--- 28. Spider man: far from home 29. Thor: love and thunder 30. Falcon and the winter soldier 31. Black widow 32. Hawkeye 33. Guardians of the galaxy: xmas special 34. Guardians of the galaxy 3 35. Echo 36. Shang-chi 37. She hulk 38. Wakanda forever 39. Secret invasion 40. Moon knight 41. Werewolf by night 42. Wandavision --multiverse saga-- 43. Loki S1 44. What if S:1 45. Quantumania 46. Loki S:2 47. What if S:2 48. Madame web ($-Sonyverse) 49. Venom ($) 50. Into the spider verse ($) 51. Venom 2 ($) •[%-Spider man 1-3] •[%-Amazing Spider Man 1-2] 52. Spider man: no way home 53. Morbius ($) 54. Dr. Strange: multiverse of madness 55. Across the spider verse ($) 56. Ms. Marvel 57. The marvels •[@-X-men 96] 58. X-men 97 •[%-Fox X-men saga] 59. Deadpool 60. Deadpool 2 •[%-Fox Daredevil] •[%-Elektra] •[%-Fox Punisher] •[%-Fox Fantastic 4 (C. Evans version)] •[%-Rise of the silver surfer] •[%-Blade Trilogy] 61. Wolverine and Deadpool 62. Agatha all along 64. The eternals 65. Capt. America: brave new world(€) 66. Thunderbolts(€) I included Deadpool Into the mcu timeline because he is now a part of the mcu and his three movies add to the continuity of the timeline. I recently added the defenders, fox-verse, and agent Carter as accompanying sagas; to the main timeline. I will add AOS, as soon as I can figure out when those episodes take place. Maybe even…the inhumans, legion and the runaways? The new mutants does not fit in the list. I just watched it and I can’t find any references to the list. Unreleased content as of 10/16/24: 1. Thunderbolts(€) 2. Capt. America: brave new world(€) 3.Blade 4.Fantastic 4 5.Avengers Doomsday 6.Avengers Secret wars 7.Daredevil born again 8.Ironheart 9.Venom: The last dance 10Your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man 11.Marvel zombies 12.Kraven 13.eyes of wakanda 14.Xmen97 S:2 15.What if… S:3 16.Wonder man 17.Spider-man Noir 18.Dr strange 3 €-from the looks of it, these two movies may continue where the eternals left off. We just have to wait and see (update: the eternals is the build up to CA brave new world and Thunderbolts so I placed it after Deadpool and Wolverine). @-stand-alone sagas that are seperate, but still contribute to the continuity of the sacred timeline. %-included for the hell of it. You don’t have to watch the fox movies, but it kinda adds to the WADP and SMNWH cameos. Separately, I also included Cloak and dagger under this category because it mentions Luke Cage and Misty. A-Agents of shield episodes that precede and/or proceed main events in the main MCU timeline Let me know what you think and enjoy the list! P.S. Madam web is trash. I put it there because it introduces the web of events, and opens up the 616 to the Sonyverse; post what if…S:2. May god have mercy on the souls of the people that made this movie.

[@kaichoudp3139]

Are we really gonna ignore the fact that HUGH was the one who wanted to be in the 3rd Deadpool film?

[@Katiewithdaffodils]

I guess if someone doesn't like it, they're not gonna watch all the hype interviews, I thought it was a lot of fun though & clearly a labour of love. Yeah a business too, but we know that it can be both.

[@sophitiaofhyrule]

"Who else is there to bring back? Nicolas Cage's Ghostrider?" Oh god yes please

[@dizzydaisy909]

you're the problem

[@Tom-je4iq]

LMAO hope you're joking

[@cameronbreeze4029]

@@dizzydaisy909 I think you're confusing the OC for a nostalgia fan, which would be kinda weak, I give them the benefit of the doubt though that they're actually a Nick Cage fan

[@rickardkaufman3988]

You laugh but Ryan Reynolds wanted Nic Cage to return as Ghost Rider for Deadpool & Wolverine but it didn't come to fruition. Good Decision as we got Nic Cage doing another performance of a lifetime in Longlegs.

[@Munnyteem]

❤❤❤❤

[@isaaka977]

lost me at multiverse of madness being one of the best atrocious take

[@jackdailey5238]

Okay I’m sorry i agree with every take here except one. Deadpool & Wolverine was not “plundering Fantastic 4 and Elektra fans” for nostalgia. It was a loving send off to the entire Fox Hero catalog and brought back characters from their successes, their flops, and their stories that never got told. It is a farewell to the group of movies that built the ground the MCU stands on

[@RodrigoFarias-vc1nm]

yeah, agreed, it was more about respect than nostalgia

[@wiledertoster4691]

Yeah, I agree but, this is one of those takes that could age poorly if they bring back the characters.

[@triskyt]

Wrong. It was pandering nostalgia bait DISGUISED as those things. Cameos don’t make a good film and if you’re that brain dead that a simple reference or appearance makes you think the FILM is good then that’s on you.

[@Jatkins6396]

​@@RodrigoFarias-vc1nm But it didn't really respect them imo. It brought them back to wave at us and that was it. No real arc or ending, just 'member these characters?' and that was it. Wolverine was a cardboard cutout of himself.

[@Greaseus]

​@@triskytWhat do u really want man? It's not Deadpool and wolverine and Elektra and the fantastic four. Would it be weirder NOT to include references? Personally, having not seen any of the movies referenced, I thought they were fun and imaginative.

[@danmcdaid]

Marvel must be betting that the FF will be the cornerstone of the MCU going forward

[@drherak]

….and betting on the Feige’s and Russos to bring things back. I have a non-justified faith that Feige wants to see this Secret Wars reboot bring back the Avengers and X-Men in the same universe before he retires.

[@BoxoSpoons]

@@drherakespecially with the current state of things it feels pretty inevitable that they’ll turn Secret Wars into their Crisis on Infinite Earths and soft reboot the MCU. Even without as much incentive to clean the slate up there was still the challenge of getting the Fantastic Four and the X-men into the main timeline. Not to mention if there’s anyone else they want to recast to try and get another 15 years out of.

[@Ryzard]

@@BoxoSpoons It's just a horrid play though because general audiences won't get it at all or like it

[@14ElmStreet28]

I'm sure it will be, if the movie is good at all, they also have the x-men which could last 10 years if done right

[@The0neWomanShow]

@@Ryzardyeah I doubt most audience members will be like oh wait there was endgame that ended and now a multiverse event that’s basically a reboot to start catching up all over again? Pass

[@KingOfMadCows]

The MCU has always had a lot of problems since the beginning but since the cinematic universe was new, the audience was more forgiving. Now the MCU has been going on for more than 15 years and they still aren't bothering to fix those mistakes, the audience's patience is running out. For example, they never planned things out that much. Big events wouldn't have that much of an impact on future movies. Things like the fall of SHIELD or the Sokovia Accords didn't matter that much in the movies that came after. But now the lack of planning makes the MCU feel so disjointed and makes so many projects feel inconsequential and inconsistent.

[@ayamutakino]

@@KingOfMadCows I’ve never forgiven Marvel for destroying Edgar Wright’s vision of Ant-Man.

[@Rtd976]

My marvel timeline: All numbered content is the MCU/sacred timeline. Those are the movies, shows and shorts that you want to watch in order. Anything marked with a “•” is additional/optional content for the advanced fan. The key to the symbols are located at the bottom of the list. the infinity saga is loopers and the following sagas are all me --infinity saga-- 1. Iron man 2.iron man 2 3.Incredible Hulk 4. The consultant (*marvel one shot) 5. Funny thing happened (*) 6. Thor 7. Capt. America 8. Agent Carter (*) •[@-Agent Carter] 9. Avengers 10. Item 47 (*) •[%-Cloak and dagger] •[@-Defenders saga] 11. Capt. America & winter soldier 12. Thor: dark world •[A@-Agents of shield S1:E8] •[A@-AOS S1:E1-5] 13. Iron man 3 •[A@-AOS S1:E6] 14. All hail the king (*) 15. Guardians of the galaxy 16. Avengers: age of ultron •[A@-AOS S1:E9] 17. Ant man •[A@-AOS S1:E7] 18. Capt. America: civil war •[A@-AOS S1:E10-11] 19. Black panther 20. Spider man: homecoming 21. Guardians of the galaxy 2 22. Dr. Strange 23. Thor: ragnarok 24. Infinity war 25. Ant man & the wasp 26. Capt. Marvel 27. Endgame ---after tony saga--- 28. Spider man: far from home 29. Thor: love and thunder 30. Falcon and the winter soldier 31. Black widow 32. Hawkeye 33. Guardians of the galaxy: xmas special 34. Guardians of the galaxy 3 35. Echo 36. Shang-chi 37. She hulk 38. Wakanda forever 39. Secret invasion 40. Moon knight 41. Werewolf by night 42. Wandavision --multiverse saga-- 43. Loki S1 44. What if S:1 45. Quantumania 46. Loki S:2 47. What if S:2 48. Madame web ($-Sonyverse) 49. Venom ($) 50. Into the spider verse ($) 51. Venom 2 ($) •[%-Spider man 1-3] •[%-Amazing Spider Man 1-2] 52. Spider man: no way home 53. Morbius ($) 54. Dr. Strange: multiverse of madness 55. Across the spider verse ($) 56. Ms. Marvel 57. The marvels •[@-X-men 96] 58. X-men 97 •[%-Fox X-men saga] 59. Deadpool 60. Deadpool 2 •[%-Fox Daredevil] •[%-Elektra] •[%-Fox Punisher] •[%-Fox Fantastic 4 (C. Evans version)] •[%-Rise of the silver surfer] •[%-Blade Trilogy] 61. Wolverine and Deadpool 62. Agatha all along 64. The eternals 65. Capt. America: brave new world(€) 66. Thunderbolts(€) I included Deadpool Into the mcu timeline because he is now a part of the mcu and his three movies add to the continuity of the timeline. I recently added the defenders, fox-verse, and agent Carter as accompanying sagas; to the main timeline. I will add AOS, as soon as I can figure out when those episodes take place. Maybe even…the inhumans, legion and the runaways? The new mutants does not fit in the list. I just watched it and I can’t find any references to the list. Unreleased content as of 10/16/24: 1. Thunderbolts(€) 2. Capt. America: brave new world(€) 3.Blade 4.Fantastic 4 5.Avengers Doomsday 6.Avengers Secret wars 7.Daredevil born again 8.Ironheart 9.Venom: The last dance 10Your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man 11.Marvel zombies 12.Kraven 13.eyes of wakanda 14.Xmen97 S:2 15.What if… S:3 16.Wonder man 17.Spider-man Noir 18.Dr strange 3 €-from the looks of it, these two movies may continue where the eternals left off. We just have to wait and see (update: the eternals is the build up to CA brave new world and Thunderbolts so I placed it after Deadpool and Wolverine). @-stand-alone sagas that are seperate, but still contribute to the continuity of the sacred timeline. %-included for the hell of it. You don’t have to watch the fox movies, but it kinda adds to the WADP and SMNWH cameos. Separately, I also included Cloak and dagger under this category because it mentions Luke Cage and Misty. A-Agents of shield episodes that precede and/or proceed main events in the main MCU timeline Let me know what you think and enjoy the list! P.S. Madam web is trash. I put it there because it introduces the web of events, and opens up the 616 to the Sonyverse; post what if…S:2. May god have mercy on the souls of the people that made this movie.

[@johno195]

It's hard to keep a major storyline going when the characters that everyone grew to love are pretty much out of the picture. Now that Disney has realized this, it feels like they've played their final trap card in bringing back RDJ, who brought fans to the MCU in the first place.

[@jameswhitaker12]

You make an excellent point that this kind of growth and box-office dominance was never sustainable - and that trying to do too much is the root of the problem. Endgame seemed like such a natural end point that they really have struggled to find reasons for the audience to care!

[@soloistdeve]

Suits really thought they could hypnotize us with CGI. 🤣🤣🤣

[@guccimalcs]

They literally did lmao. You watched cartoons with real actors and you ate it tf up everytime. Almost all of the behind the scenes footage is against a blue screen. Every.single.movie

[@NathanDrakeTheGreat]

​@@guccimalcs Hey hey hey... Iron Man 1 will always be the exception to the shitshow.

[@jaded9234]

@@guccimalcs Not everyone, it becomes apparent, by at least phase two, what these movies are going to be. Anyone who was familiar with how popular adaptions of known properties tend to pan out, probably dropped out pretty early. I lost interest by the first wave of sequels and let the wave go on without me. Having already lived through the attempts at "Resident Evil", that was enough disappointment.

[@soloistdeve]

@@guccimalcs Little kids with ignorant parents brother. I can hypnotize them without spending 300 mil, come on now.

[@Werewolf.with.Internet.Access]

@@guccimalcs Then why aren’t these CGI shlockfests breaking bank with every movie? Or even most of them these days? Oh right. Cos we didn’t get hypnotized, and we still have discernment.

[@miadatenshi9903]

8:09 thats the point of Deadpool and Wolverine. They didn't bring back the actual X Men or Magneto or whatever, they bring fucking Elektra and a Gambit that debuts in this movie. More than pandering, it's a goodbye to the Foxverse, even the shitty parts of it.

[@KinglyTepery]

exactly he didn't watch it

[@fenrirsrage4609]

Yeah thats how I interpreted the movie somewhat. Its a farewell and obituary to the bygone era of Fox and even New Line Cinema movies. While Deadpool decides to move forward and do his own thing.

[@thataintfalco7106]

Yeah, there’s definitely a reason they didn’t bring back the real heavy hitters for hype. That movie was genuinely celebrating every part of the fox marvel universe, including the shitty parts. I really appreciate it for including blade, the og

[@MisterPrince01]

Agreed

[@pstratos7]

Didn’t they bring back wolverine though…

[@wildboargaming1858]

I think the reason Scorcese’s words have been so widely reported on even 5 years later is because he acts as a sort of marker for a shift in public opinion as the MCU began to flop. His opinion coalesced with the rise of people realizing ‘hey these new films aren’t really that good’ and of cinephiles and portions of the general public growing tired and experiencing a sort of brand fatigue, as well as the innate desire of many to point out flaws in popular, widely-praised things. (Think Taylor Swift and people pointing out her private jets, rereleases encouraging you to buy each version of an album, etc.)

[@sweethearts370]

God, Taylor swift is such a good example tho oversaturating of a brand

[@shepherd8171]

IMO; after Endgame they should've rebooted and focused on the x-men, fantastic 4 ETC, comics do this on the regular

[@lulu_TheWitchBoy]

I can see them doing a DC rebirth situation (soft reboot) after secret wars. Been rumored they might reboot

[@thomasgeorggoenitzer]

It's honestly kinda sad. When the MCU was in it's prime, I was a kid and a huge superhero fan. My original Avengers DVD was like my holy grail, I'd watch it at least once a week. Now, as a young adult, I can't even have fun with new MCU movies because they all feel the same, just each a bit worse than the last, to the point where I'm questioning if they've always been this bad. I think I'm gonna rewatch some of my favorites just to make sure that I'm not gaslighting myself haha.

[@samuelbarber6177]

This happened to me as well. I’ve found that post-Endgame, or at least post-No Way Home I really have had a decreasing interest in MCU productions. I think as the universe has too big and (too profitable) they’ve just lost that sense of identity that movies like Captain America: The First Avenger (my favourite) had for example. The modern MCU is just exhausting. I think also being introduced to better movies (better action movies especially, such as Die Hard or rewatching the Sam Raimi Spider-Man films) has really put the MCU’s lack of grit and identity to shame.

[@Mr.Nyongo]

As someone who was a young adult when the 2012 Avengers film came out, the MCU house style/samey complaint has been around since then. Lacking style and refusing to take itself seriously.

[@homerdripson406]

I remember rewatching them after endgame and honestly a lot of them don’t really hold up

[@miz4535]

It's called personal development.

[@Mahboishk]

They weren't always this bad. Go back to a phase 1-3 movie and the difference in writing quality is night and day.

[@Lazypackmule]

Taking Deadpool as if it were written by Marvel and not Ryan Reynolds doing what he'd already been doing for 2 movies under Fox already is wild That wasn't corporate insecurity, that was a fan saying what he knows everyone thinks, regardless of whether it's even entirely true

[@ShadowSonic2]

Reynolds had to get the okay from Feige to do everything in DP&W, this idea that Reynolds could defy Disney is moronic

[@ELTABULLO]

Bro was betting on disney to not milk something to the ground faster than anyone😭 😂

[@Carnagevenomtoxin]

For me the reason it feels like the flop era is frankly a lack of direction. The earlier phases felt like they were pieces to be bigger story. So when they get to the Avengers films it all felt like it made sense. All these past movies since after Endgame felt like they're throwing things against a wall and seeing what sticks. While vaguely using multiverse stuff purely for fan service.

[@Rtd976]

My marvel timeline: All numbered content is the MCU/sacred timeline. Those are the movies, shows and shorts that you want to watch in order. Anything marked with a “•” is additional/optional content for the advanced fan. The key to the symbols are located at the bottom of the list. the infinity saga is loopers and the following sagas are all me --infinity saga-- 1. Iron man 2.iron man 2 3.Incredible Hulk 4. The consultant (*marvel one shot) 5. Funny thing happened (*) 6. Thor 7. Capt. America 8. Agent Carter (*) •[@-Agent Carter] 9. Avengers 10. Item 47 (*) •[%-Cloak and dagger] •[@-Defenders saga] 11. Capt. America & winter soldier 12. Thor: dark world •[A@-Agents of shield S1:E8] •[A@-AOS S1:E1-5] 13. Iron man 3 •[A@-AOS S1:E6] 14. All hail the king (*) 15. Guardians of the galaxy 16. Avengers: age of ultron •[A@-AOS S1:E9] 17. Ant man •[A@-AOS S1:E7] 18. Capt. America: civil war •[A@-AOS S1:E10-11] 19. Black panther 20. Spider man: homecoming 21. Guardians of the galaxy 2 22. Dr. Strange 23. Thor: ragnarok 24. Infinity war 25. Ant man & the wasp 26. Capt. Marvel 27. Endgame ---after tony saga--- 28. Spider man: far from home 29. Thor: love and thunder 30. Falcon and the winter soldier 31. Black widow 32. Hawkeye 33. Guardians of the galaxy: xmas special 34. Guardians of the galaxy 3 35. Echo 36. Shang-chi 37. She hulk 38. Wakanda forever 39. Secret invasion 40. Moon knight 41. Werewolf by night 42. Wandavision --multiverse saga-- 43. Loki S1 44. What if S:1 45. Quantumania 46. Loki S:2 47. What if S:2 48. Madame web ($-Sonyverse) 49. Venom ($) 50. Into the spider verse ($) 51. Venom 2 ($) •[%-Spider man 1-3] •[%-Amazing Spider Man 1-2] 52. Spider man: no way home 53. Morbius ($) 54. Dr. Strange: multiverse of madness 55. Across the spider verse ($) 56. Ms. Marvel 57. The marvels •[@-X-men 96] 58. X-men 97 •[%-Fox X-men saga] 59. Deadpool 60. Deadpool 2 •[%-Fox Daredevil] •[%-Elektra] •[%-Fox Punisher] •[%-Fox Fantastic 4 (C. Evans version)] •[%-Rise of the silver surfer] •[%-Blade Trilogy] 61. Wolverine and Deadpool 62. Agatha all along 64. The eternals 65. Capt. America: brave new world(€) 66. Thunderbolts(€) I included Deadpool Into the mcu timeline because he is now a part of the mcu and his three movies add to the continuity of the timeline. I recently added the defenders, fox-verse, and agent Carter as accompanying sagas; to the main timeline. I will add AOS, as soon as I can figure out when those episodes take place. Maybe even…the inhumans, legion and the runaways? The new mutants does not fit in the list. I just watched it and I can’t find any references to the list. Unreleased content as of 10/16/24: 1. Thunderbolts(€) 2. Capt. America: brave new world(€) 3.Blade 4.Fantastic 4 5.Avengers Doomsday 6.Avengers Secret wars 7.Daredevil born again 8.Ironheart 9.Venom: The last dance 10Your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man 11.Marvel zombies 12.Kraven 13.eyes of wakanda 14.Xmen97 S:2 15.What if… S:3 16.Wonder man 17.Spider-man Noir 18.Dr strange 3 €-from the looks of it, these two movies may continue where the eternals left off. We just have to wait and see (update: the eternals is the build up to CA brave new world and Thunderbolts so I placed it after Deadpool and Wolverine). @-stand-alone sagas that are seperate, but still contribute to the continuity of the sacred timeline. %-included for the hell of it. You don’t have to watch the fox movies, but it kinda adds to the WADP and SMNWH cameos. Separately, I also included Cloak and dagger under this category because it mentions Luke Cage and Misty. A-Agents of shield episodes that precede and/or proceed main events in the main MCU timeline Let me know what you think and enjoy the list! P.S. Madam web is trash. I put it there because it introduces the web of events, and opens up the 616 to the Sonyverse; post what if…S:2. May god have mercy on the souls of the people that made this movie.

[@Marcrubio16]

Great video, the main thing that bugs me in narrative terms is that there are certain characters that they clearly don't know where to put. Like, when are we gonna se Namor and Moon Knight again? If they show up in the next Avengers movie, it's gonna be a 4 year gap between the last time we saw them. They've been developing so many projects and at the same time it feels they've left lots of important players undeveloped.

[@fanb1536]

Hopefully nowhere. Moon Knight and Namor were completely butchered.

[@BugVlogs]

I think the success of Barbenheimer last year, and the success of films like Dune Part 2 this year, proves audiences are tired of the same old superhero formula and want to see things that are actually new.

[@bullymaguire3385]

I mean Deadpool and Wolverine is a success people just want good movies

[@woozie77]

@@bullymaguire3385”good film”

[@miz4535]

@@bullymaguire3385 Imagine caling Deadpool and Wolverine good.

[@miz4535]

It's depressing that Dune Part 2 is what people want when it suffers from a lot of what is bad about modern movies. Too much action and just overly simplistic. The production design is bland and brutalist which doesn't match the book and stops the world feeling lived in or real. Like Arrakeen is supposed to be a city but I don't get that impression at all. The acting and dialogue is just ok but not amazing. Zendaya sounds like a Gen Z teenage from New York. Chamalet fails at being menacing and the turn is bad. Bardem is a one-note comic relief character. Bulter is just unhinged and kills people for no reason, same with Bautista. It really gets old seeing them beat the shit out of a Harkonnen for the tenth time. Terrible leadership. Even with these action scenes there are absolutely no stakes or tension. Either the Fremen are steamrolling or the Harkonnen's are. Then the film drops most of what makes the book interesting and instead beats us on the head with this prophecy aspect as if it doesn't trust the audience to work out who that Paul is not really meant to be a good guy. To be honest, they probably wouldn't. Either the characters blindly accept him, or they are Zendaya. Compare that to films that were hits like 2001 and Lawrence of Arabia. You could not make films like that now because people would call them "boring." Just a brain dead audience.

[@toren2099]

​@@miz4535you're right it was fantastic

[@rileyallen489]

I am so sorry to admit this in public but if they bring back Nick Cage as Ghost Rider I'll give them all my money

[@NorthernRealmJackal]

Don't be sorry, Nick Cage is 100% the guy you bring out for such a Hail Mary. Hell, they should've just cast him as Dr. Doom. It would've either been the worst or the best thing to happen to mainstream cinema in 3 decades, no in-between.

[@deckarde4919]

While I'm not an Oppenheimer fan, it still feels so pathetic to me that Downey Jr returns to the MCU after it. I also believe that when you're on top you can't fail as bad as you're doing, and when you're in the flop era you can't win no matter what you do right.

[@davidw.2791]

I feel differently. My surface-level, armchair-shrink diagnosis is that RDJ now feels he can have it both ways. Otherwise, shouldn’t he be “crawling back to the MCU gravy train meal ticket” after an arthouse-y big role *bombed* instead?

[@MaxonerousX]

I think you guys are looking too much into it. RDJ is an actor who has made enough money to not have to ever care about reputation again. I don't think we have an actual number for how much Disney gave him to come back, but it is guaranteed to be ludicrous. Why not take it? I would, if I were in his shoes. Who cares how respectable the movie will be. Avengers villains always die at the end of the movie (counting IW and Endgame as one thing), so it's not like he's making a commitment.

[@14ElmStreet28]

Maybe he wants to do a good job as Dr. Doom

[@jopiart]

I believe the X-Men might be Marvel's last trump card. You have no idea how insanely popular they are. Much more than the Avengers ever been. FOX might have f*cked up the movies, but people didn't forget about the animated series and the comics. Also, the X-Men are not your typical superheroes. They're much more relatable to different kinds of people all over the world.

[@koencagurangan3256]

Gotta say that's probably the riskiest position they could possibly have put themselves in, yet also the one with the most possible reward I mean, to deal with the X-Men means to deal with some pretty heavy topics. If Marvel can't do that justice while making a great movie, it's gonna hit them harder than any of the flop-era films ever did, and could possibly spell the complete death of the MCU. And considering how bad they've been flopping lately, it doesn't inspire much hope On the other hand, if they pull it off, it may just be the boost they need to launch them back into the top. Maybe not to their peak in the 2010's, but it'll be pretty damn close

[@salsathemonkey22]

*some* Fox fucked up *some* Xman movies

[@vinmulf171]

Scorsese was always right the oversaturation prove it, and the fact people brought it up already give us evidence how hard of a fact that was

[@jvgreendarmok]

"It's not like Marvel's entering some kind of flop era." (Always Sunny title card: "Marvel Enters Its Flop Era")

[@babyblue3717]

I remember when Scorcese made that comment, and i was in the peak of my Marvel phase. I remember saying "Well, fuck his opinion. He will choke on it as this universe gets better and bigger". i remember when the words "superhero fatigue" started to be tossed around. I was angry about it. To me, getting tired of fun superhero movies was like getting tired of ice cream. Well, i was the one who choked on my words. All the characters I loved are either dead or turned into flanderized charicatures. All the directors i loved are out and moving on. And now this universe is empty, as wide as it is shallow. This isn't ice cream, it's sweetened ice. I'm fatigued. I'm out.

[@evanrutledge-sz4yo]

I will always love early MCU, but this, this new ERA just feels like a slandered cariture of what snobbish cinephiles thought the MCU was. They embrace the worst aspects and down played what made me, any many others, love this universe so much.

[@ayamutakino]

Really? Because I remember “no fucking shit.” Remember that Edgar Wright’s departure from Ant-Man was what really cemented the MCU as the way it is.

[@14ElmStreet28]

It's just not smart to group an entire genre of movies into a category that automatically makes all of them into non-movies.

[@kel-A-3414]

Them super powers really are getting neutralized and we can only watch in silence.

[@tomascarvalho-hr5uk]

I also think that Scorsese’s comments hurt deeply because, no matter what they say, everyone involved in a marvel movie is a Martin fan. They are embarrassed of their own movies. No one goes to Hollywood to make “turn your brain off” movies. They had a dream, they wanted to be like Martin, like Spielberg, but they sold their dream for money and they know it and they hate themselves for it. When the creators don’t love their own movies, how will the audience?

[@JS-bu4xt]

What evidence do you have of any of this? As if getting the call from marvel means you’ve failed as an actor. Most of the creatives on these films are fans of these characters. In many ways, it’s a dream job. I think you’re drinking the Scorsese and pretentious film student/critic kool-aid.

[@tomascarvalho-hr5uk]

If you read between the lines in interviews you can see the embarrassment of the actors with some of their roles. I don’t deny that they could be fans of the comic book characters, I am also a fan of the characters, but they know they are not doing them justice in these movies. Also, just because I’m critical of movies that don’t take any risks or try anything new, doesn’t mean I’m pretentious, it just means I like good movies. How could it be a dream job to make a movie whose fans describe as “turn your brain off”. They wanted to do movies because they saw movies in their life who inspired them, not movies who turned their brains off.

[@JS-bu4xt]

@@tomascarvalho-hr5uk like 90% of filmmakers today will tell you they decided to pursue the profession because of Star Wars. You are giving too much credit to Scorsese and definitely downplaying what marvel films have been. Sure they’ve had their misses but here are legitimately some great movies in the bunch.

[@mr.muhamadyusup]

These movies were always meant to be a comic book movie, not a masterpiece like The Godfather. So, Scorsese's comment couldn't really be applied here.

[@davidw.2791]

@@mr.muhamadyusupI mean, The Godfather was based on a cash-grab crime pulp fiction filled with lurid details like just why Sonny Corleone and the bridesmaid hit it off so nicely. It could have been a “turn your brain off” movie in the 70s, but in the making of the movie, Coppolla and Co. elevated it.

[@NWObrolbz]

saying multiverse of madness is the best of this last phase is CRAZY.... It actually marks the beggining of the end. So bad it sinked the whole franchise 💀

[@Feesh322]

There is a certain poetry to this decision. The MCU's greatest hero becomes their greatest villain. It'll only work, though, if his performance is serious (NO QUIPS) and we *never* see his face again after he puts on the mask. And I don't know if Marvel Studios has that kind of restraint any more.

[@Tha_Pencil]

RDJ revealed as Doom was such a desperate and embarrassing moment. Being an mcu fan has to be a mental disorder

[@jakebocek2949]

Likely the same crowd that's been trying to save the acolyte on Twitter.

[@ZaidGameZ]

Being this much of a hater has to be a mental disorder

[@delusion5867]

As much as I like RDJ, that was such a stupid decision and massive missed opportunity

[@DeadKraken]

@@jakebocek2949 What a sad affair that was too lol

[@rachelmayes3064]

What happened to Moon Knight? It felt like it had an actual vision and then the guy just vanished.

[@heatseekergaming8215]

IIRC Fiege said he wanted Moon Knight to come back for a second season at some point

[@WrottJackson]

Marvel shat on my childhood memories like it was their God-given right. The amount of disrespect and lack of consideration that went into the decision to bring back RDJ genuinely has me dumbfounded. The last 10 years of Marvel movies, Endgame, it was all for nothing and that’s all thanks to Marvel. Most of the people who still watch Marvel movies aren’t even the original fans from like 2008-2019. They’re trying to get them back by bringing RDJ into the picture again but instead it’s one of the biggest acts of disrespect towards one’s own audience I’ve seen in quite some time. It’s not just the movies or history of the MCU, it’s millions and millions of people’s childhoods growing up on Marvel movies. For me, Endgame was a transition from childhood to adulthood. It was truly the end of an era in so many ways. We’re in the age of villains now because all the heroes died off. Marvel used to be the hero, now they’re the villain. Harvey Dent was right. This is a cosmic wrong that will likely go unpunished.

[@ayamutakino]

They’ve been the villain for me when they fucked over Edgar Wright.

[@NealFowler]

Honey wake up! We got a new eyebrow cinema video!

[@RobertGithinji-e5u]

I can see your honey in your profile pic

[@DCMarvelMultiverse]

For me, the decline became noticeable since the first Ant-Man and snowballed from there. Ever since Endgame, whenever I see an MCU project, I flashback to that joke from the Simpsons wherein Wolf Castle talks about his stand-up comedy film being just him in front of a brick wall for two hours at a cost of $100M. That is the MCU right there. No plot logic. Poor film making. Hurried scripting. Too much cost. Nothing but maudlin family messaging. Nonstop stand-up routines. And poor, rushed decision making.

[@Rtd976]

My marvel timeline: All numbered content is the MCU/sacred timeline. Those are the movies, shows and shorts that you want to watch in order. Anything marked with a “•” is additional/optional content for the advanced fan. The key to the symbols are located at the bottom of the list. the infinity saga is loopers and the following sagas are all me --infinity saga-- 1. Iron man 2.iron man 2 3.Incredible Hulk 4. The consultant (*marvel one shot) 5. Funny thing happened (*) 6. Thor 7. Capt. America 8. Agent Carter (*) •[@-Agent Carter] 9. Avengers 10. Item 47 (*) •[%-Cloak and dagger] •[@-Defenders saga] 11. Capt. America & winter soldier 12. Thor: dark world •[A@-Agents of shield S1:E8] •[A@-AOS S1:E1-5] 13. Iron man 3 •[A@-AOS S1:E6] 14. All hail the king (*) 15. Guardians of the galaxy 16. Avengers: age of ultron •[A@-AOS S1:E9] 17. Ant man •[A@-AOS S1:E7] 18. Capt. America: civil war •[A@-AOS S1:E10-11] 19. Black panther 20. Spider man: homecoming 21. Guardians of the galaxy 2 22. Dr. Strange 23. Thor: ragnarok 24. Infinity war 25. Ant man & the wasp 26. Capt. Marvel 27. Endgame ---after tony saga--- 28. Spider man: far from home 29. Thor: love and thunder 30. Falcon and the winter soldier 31. Black widow 32. Hawkeye 33. Guardians of the galaxy: xmas special 34. Guardians of the galaxy 3 35. Echo 36. Shang-chi 37. She hulk 38. Wakanda forever 39. Secret invasion 40. Moon knight 41. Werewolf by night 42. Wandavision --multiverse saga-- 43. Loki S1 44. What if S:1 45. Quantumania 46. Loki S:2 47. What if S:2 48. Madame web ($-Sonyverse) 49. Venom ($) 50. Into the spider verse ($) 51. Venom 2 ($) •[%-Spider man 1-3] •[%-Amazing Spider Man 1-2] 52. Spider man: no way home 53. Morbius ($) 54. Dr. Strange: multiverse of madness 55. Across the spider verse ($) 56. Ms. Marvel 57. The marvels •[@-X-men 96] 58. X-men 97 •[%-Fox X-men saga] 59. Deadpool 60. Deadpool 2 •[%-Fox Daredevil] •[%-Elektra] •[%-Fox Punisher] •[%-Fox Fantastic 4 (C. Evans version)] •[%-Rise of the silver surfer] •[%-Blade Trilogy] 61. Wolverine and Deadpool 62. Agatha all along 64. The eternals 65. Capt. America: brave new world(€) 66. Thunderbolts(€) I included Deadpool Into the mcu timeline because he is now a part of the mcu and his three movies add to the continuity of the timeline. I recently added the defenders, fox-verse, and agent Carter as accompanying sagas; to the main timeline. I will add AOS, as soon as I can figure out when those episodes take place. Maybe even…the inhumans, legion and the runaways? The new mutants does not fit in the list. I just watched it and I can’t find any references to the list. Unreleased content as of 10/16/24: 1. Thunderbolts(€) 2. Capt. America: brave new world(€) 3.Blade 4.Fantastic 4 5.Avengers Doomsday 6.Avengers Secret wars 7.Daredevil born again 8.Ironheart 9.Venom: The last dance 10Your friendly neighborhood Spider-Man 11.Marvel zombies 12.Kraven 13.eyes of wakanda 14.Xmen97 S:2 15.What if… S:3 16.Wonder man 17.Spider-man Noir 18.Dr strange 3 €-from the looks of it, these two movies may continue where the eternals left off. We just have to wait and see (update: the eternals is the build up to CA brave new world and Thunderbolts so I placed it after Deadpool and Wolverine). @-stand-alone sagas that are seperate, but still contribute to the continuity of the sacred timeline. %-included for the hell of it. You don’t have to watch the fox movies, but it kinda adds to the WADP and SMNWH cameos. Separately, I also included Cloak and dagger under this category because it mentions Luke Cage and Misty. A-Agents of shield episodes that precede and/or proceed main events in the main MCU timeline Let me know what you think and enjoy the list! P.S. Madam web is trash. I put it there because it introduces the web of events, and opens up the 616 to the Sonyverse; post what if…S:2. May god have mercy on the souls of the people that made this movie.

[@Malik_Maverick]

The issue is Marvel thinks it’s too big to fail. You took well-fleshed out characters in Cap, Hulk, Thor, Widow, Hawk, and Tony, and multiplied the number of characters and projects by 10. Now, in order to understand the next Marvel movie, I have to watch at least 4 other movies and 2 TV shows. What is Avengers Endgame 2.0 going to look like? I don’t care enough to learn the backstory of 30-40 characters, their variants, etc. Hell - how is Disney even going to balance that especially now with them adding in the X-Men? And they’re all going up against Kang/Doom? How? How are you going to make this meaningful and what are you going to give all these characters to “do”? How is Kamala’s bracelets going to play into the space-quantum-multiverse? Why have the Eternals or Agents of Shield not been around nor popped up? What are you going to do about adding Agatha and Clea and the supernatural into a gamma-radioactive Hulk, Infinity Stones, and mystical Norse weapons? What about the 10 Rings - what exactly are they? Marvel isn’t just juggling dozens of characters but also multiple McGuffins. And now you have actors playing additional iterations/variants? If Chris’s Human Torch is valid, are you being back the 2000s F4? What about Michael B. Jordan? He can come back and play Human Torch and Killmonger? Is Jennifer Garner’s Elektra gonna fight the Defender’s Elektra? It’s all too much.

[@HC-cb4yp]

Protagonist. Antagonist. Conflict. Conflict resolution. We're in the post-apocalypse of storytelling.

[@Steelers1180]

The first five minutes of Wakanda forever was good, but the rest was total garbage.

[@SourRobo8364]

Glad to see someone else say it.

[@cheetah219]

That's the only movie of the bunch I can understand why it was poorly written...an entire plot restructure and trying to find the balance between showing respect to Chadwick boseman but also making a mcu movie. A lot of difficult choices had to be made and yes, in hindsight a better movie could have been written and it wasn't good...but I understand why that was difficult. I can respect the effort, they tried. It didn't feel like they even tried with Thor or antman. In what world does it make sense for one avenger to beat Kang when he was the next big bad? It's obvious antman had to lose

[@addman1952]

Multiverse of madness was complete ass front to back, no idea why it was labeled a "hit" by this guy.

[@mortomultiverse8778]

I feel like Wakanda Forever was one of the few MCU movies from this era that had something interesting going on and a purpose, but its shortcomings brought it down significally. But I'll take 15 Wakanda Forevers over the narrative sludge that is Love & Thunder, Multiverse of Madness and Quantumania

[@Steelers1180]

@mortomultiverse8778 Nah all of those movies are on the same level of shit.

[@popat918]

marvel studios has such a cynical design for making movies. the meta narrative irony overdone to the point where so many characters can't themselves seriously, let alone the story.

[@tasha385]

exactly! if the characters can’t take the story seriously, or if there aren’t any stakes or REAL consequences why should the audience care? the cynicism and meta commentary is always so stale and unfunny.

[@shiningarmor2838]

"Flop Era" implies an imminent comeback. Marvel is dying, and it will only descend further into irrelevance.

[@Enterstainers]

Eh, I think Daredevil is looking pretty promising. Overall, maybe, but there are gems to come. They just need to focus on a few projects, not 10 at once.

[@DistortedDebaser]

I wouldn't consider D&W a flop at all, it was one of the best action comedies I have ever seen, everyone in the theater laughed, everyone laughed, and it was obvious we'd have a Deadpool and Wolverine since the first and second movies since he references Wolverine every so often, Deadpool and Wolverine was the best send off ever to the Fox Marvel properties, Wesley Snipes wasn't even expecting to be there or hell they didn't even know if he'd ever come. It was a heart to heart, a love letter, don't call it a flop. It was there so we could see classic cinema, 90's characters and actors that we may never see again, Gambit was supposed to have a movie but never got the chance to see light of day, so Ryan gave us a taste of what Gambit could've been like if Channing Tatum's Gambit was able to get his movie, all the characters that were in the void were characters that were lost from Disney acquiring Fox, the writers always insult or make fun of themselves, companies, making fun of everything going on in the world, Ryan and the writers put love in the Deadpool movies.