Faking It: Is the Bible Full of Forgeries?

Wondrium allows you to stream 8,000+ hours of lectures and documentaries in the areas of history, religion, and science, including several courses by Dr. Ehrman. *Sign up for a free trial at bartehrman.com/wondrium
Visit www.bartehrman.com/courses/ to shop from Bart Ehrman’s online courses and get a special discount by using code: MJPODCAST on all courses.
**********
Was it a common and acceptable practice in antiquity to write under someone else's name?
Why would people have written in someone else's name in antiquity?
Do we find examples of forged texts in the New Testament?
How can scholars tell what is forged and what is authentic?
If some of the books in the New Testament we definitely forged, why aren't they removed?
*Advertising Disclaimer: We are an affiliate partner for Wondrium, so if you sign up for a paid plan with them, we will earn a commission. This in no way affects your price and you’ll be supporting our show, so we thank you.

[@ianchisholm5756]

This is an exemplary interview. Megan asks clear, concise questions that raise all the pertinent issues: Bart gives detailed answers that a layperson like me can really understand. Thank you both for this!

[@darrylviljoen6227]

I think alot of people miss that Megan is a scholar but very good at getting Bart to explain things she would know and understand but most people wouldn't.

[@wizolufa1452]

Love these new series. Bart is an excellent and charming speaker, he makes studying these things fun and keeps you engaged the whole time

[@nasonguy]

It's great because you can really tell that he gets quite excited about a lot of these subjects and it's infectious.

[@SinghRoadwayS]

You are absolutely right, it was fun listening "Triumph of Christianity" in his voice. I don't think I have ever enjoyed any thing else on Audible than this book.

[@janardhanparveshwar4307]

he has a vested interest there.

[@impeachsocialism]

@@janardhanparveshwar4307 He’s a writer and needs to pay his bills just like me and you. If he makes money for selling books and pay taxes on that is fine. How much in taxes do churches pay?

[@janardhanparveshwar4307]

@@impeachsocialism oh yes thieves do make money by playing on the sentiments of other people. What is the church?? THE CHURCH IS THE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVE IN JESUS. And the people pay their taxes. So the money the members give to the church as an organisation of people is already taxed.

[@reubenschwarz]

Dr Ehrman is too modest. His book Forgery and Counterforgery, while academic, is actually very readable, well-written and entertaining, even to an amateur noob like myself. Well worth a look if you want to dig deeper into this fascinating topic.

[@bartdehrman]

Thank you!

[@darz_k.]

@@i_hate_handles777 ..as in, just a little bit? ..just 'ish'?

[@Kholdaimon]

@eminem Is that relevant information? To you? The topic at hand? In general?

[@termination9353]

The Gospel of Jesus was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own. The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story. It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them. Friday 13th.

[@user-tn8oe6eb7u]

God keeps his word as the apple of an eye plz! You cannot add or remove anything from it period.

[@davidschneide5422]

"What does he know?...He's just an expert on the texts in their original language."

[@outhousephilosophies3992]

Lol I can see Bart reading Ancient Greek in the morning,such a nerd ,❤️love it

[@ThetennisDr]

I read also thanks

[@miamichaels5999]

I love Megan and Bart together.

[@while.coyote]

It's gross how modern preachers will preach from the forged books with total confidence while knowing full well what the scholars say. You'd think they'd be terrified that putting lies into the mouth of the god they supposedly worship might be a major sin and would want to triple check their sources to be absolutely sure the message is correct ... but ha ha, nope, not important at all.

[@michaelfoulkes9502]

I have been thinking the same thing for years. It’s what drove me away from the church.

[@ghostbear283]

My dad went to school for this. I just found out at 34 years old that he knew all along but never told us. I don’t trust any clergy

[@termination9353]

The Gospel of Jesus was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own. The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story. It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them Friday 13th.

[@Tactics592]

And how sure you are that Mr Erhman is not wrong.?

[@AhsimNreiziev]

@@Tactics592 Scientific (in this case Historical) consensus, mostly. It's how we rational people conclude most of our distinctions between what we judge to be correct or incorrect.

[@rjwh67220]

I started reading your books when Misquoting Jesus first came out, and they’ve provided me with untold hours of smug inner dialogues whenever I hear someone quoting the Bible as if it was gospel. Thanks for all the good times, and for this excellent channel.

[@jknight714forCHRIST]

Hello Russ. I think you are approaching Bart's information assuming it is actually disproving something within The Bible Lol. All Bart does is talk about what most people already know, there are minor differences in the original manuscripts...

[@darz_k.]

@@jknight714forCHRIST triggered.

[@atheistinprocessmyway9635]

@@jknight714forCHRIST It helps a lot learning from honest scholars like Bart, that the bible is full of contradictions, discrepancies and LIES. It is fully human made by highly delusional, primitive and superstitious people, what else can be expected? To disprove fairy tales from your book you don't need anyone's opinion, but your own honest reasoning.

[@termination9353]

The Gospel of Jesus was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own. The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story. It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them. Friday 13th.

[@rjwh67220]

@@termination9353 cite your sources.

[@alexcanduci3824]

My favourite ancient forgery is the Historia Augusta. In one part (the beginning of the Life of Aurelian), the author (who is writing under a false name) recounts a fictitious conversation with a made up individual who advises the author to make up whatever he likes when writing the imperial biography because other historians have also made up stuff. It should therefore come as no surprise that the biography is largely fictitious. People make up stuff all the time, and the ancient world was no different to the modern.

[@truthhunterhawk3932]

1st and 2nd Timothy were most likely written later in Pauls life, when the church had begun to be established. Paul went on extensive mission trips to the gentiles, preaching the Gospel and planting churches in various places. He later went and constantly visited those churches, for encouragement and correction to them. If he couldn't get there for whatever reason, he sent letters with the messages he wanted to send to them.

[@AdolfsGirl]

​@@truthhunterhawk3932paul never existed

[@stephen_pfrimmer]

The volume and conversational basis are perfect for controversial subjects. On the subject of controversy: I think we can't hear other people because we have too much to lose now. Every person is stuck in a historical environment that ends in departure. Thanks guys.

[@ChiliMcFly1]

If you read the red letters it appears that Jesus teaches us to pray to God the father where as Paul seems to teach us to pray to Jesus. Why do the churches follow Paul and not Jesus ?

[@beauxcarroll8348]

Being able to look at both sides is the beginning of treating people the way you want to be treated and loving everyone. How can you love someone unless you understand them? How can you treat someone the way that they need to be treated unless you understand them? Thank you for all your work and God bless.

[@Amfrabrikerbabbin]

Evangelicals seem to have major problems following the Golden Rule and not bearing false witness. I'm fairly certain that they are avoiding these two important things, and are well aware, but don't care. If this is true, then they're not Christian. They're Biblicans, because they worship the Bible and are conservative Republican. They are idolaters.

[@piros100]

wow, new series to binge during work!!! 😆😆😆I wish Bart had been my teacher I love Dr. Ehrman's teaching style and incredible knowledge.

[@mauricehalfhide3982]

Great episode full of important info. Thanks!

[@bobbrereton4785]

Great listening, Bart.

[@QuinnPrice]

Excellent insights. I was tempted to write a summary, but dudes, spend time with a real scholar. Time well spent. Thank you.

[@coogfam1]

LOVE this!! Thank you! Megan, your audio sounds funky>:)

[@stevecuddles]

Dr. Ehrman! You must weigh in on a breaking controversy! Never has your scholarship been more relevant to the present day. Last night's Final Jeopardy! clue was "Paul’s letter to them is the New Testament epistle with the most Old Testament quotations." The contestant who answered "Hebrews" was judged correct, but we all know Paul didn't write Hebrews. Another player said 1 Romans and lost. But there doesn't even seem to be agreement on how many quotations are in each book. Jeopardy fans are going nuts. The Tournament of Champions outcome rests on this. Help!

[@termination9353]

The Gospel of Jesus was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own. The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story. It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them Friday 13th.

[@stevecuddles]

@@termination9353 wow

[@Kyeudo]

@@stevecuddles He's a spammer and conspiracy nut. His nonsense is pretty much self-refuting.

[@andrewmays3988]

An excellent discussion of fascinating topics of both universal and historical importance. I have also enjoyed reading the comments of other listeners.😇

[@louisbrown7140]

Great series!

[@Captain-Slow]

Love the show and thank you, as always for sharing your wisdoms and scholarship is beyond valuable. On the side note, what's the name of the fantastic intro music? I can't find the name of it.

[@BruceWSims]

Spending a lot of time studying the first 1000 years of Christianity, my own sense is that proto-orthodox and orthodox forces quickly learned how important it was to not just eliminate variant opinions but to also more closely structure the institution that was to proceed from their particular take on things. IMHO the history of Chistianity is less about preserving a prophets' teachings and more about building an institution in his name. FWIW.

[@paulamartinez6145]

Love the show, look forward to seeing each new episode. Love Barts "soapbox " and hope to see more of it. Thank you for the great shows.

[@AW-uv3cb]

As always, great knowledge from Bart and great questions from Megan. Thank you both!

[@Bazzo61]

Bart is always interesting and engaging. Love these videos and format. Especially looking forward to ones on the gospels.

[@vincentcross9148]

I absolutely love these series. You can feel that Bart is really into this and the immense amount knowledge he possesses. Megan is also very professional and don’t think for a second that I haven’t noticed the different lenses 👓 in each video would 😊😊! I would like a brief into Megan it’d be nice to get to know her too.

[@dandavis2138]

Great Sound..

[@0vernight711]

Yeah the worst part is it would take all of 5 min to fix it

[@bartdehrman]

@@0vernight711 Sorry everyone. We're working on it!

[@tiigalilly5320]

Love this podcast and all the other ones too

[@Resenbrink]

What a treasure on the subject of Christianity Bart is - have listened to heaps of his talks and debates.

[@tcoopster]

“When someone takes a stand against a view that is simply true, it’s not easy to find any kind of reasoning that will make them change their mind. That’s not because they aren’t intelligent or that you’re not explaining things clearly. When someone is imprisoned by their views, they harden into stone. How can you deal with them by using reason?” -Epictetus

[@darrylviljoen6227]

Makes me think of trying to discuss or debate someone who lives in a totally different reality.

[@DrLauraRPalmer]

Incredible work! I think these things only inflict those with a spiritual iQ over 100… The others don’t question much too long.

[@Cometkazie]

I'm looking forward to the same treatment of the four gospels. This is so incredibly well done.

[@davidpinheiro9650]

I absolutely love this format! Although I would have preferred the conversation to be more structured, seminar-like, but I still love it! It's already part of my Wednesday ritual. PS: could you be a little more careful with the difference in volume between the microphones? Thanks.

[@bartdehrman]

We're working on it! Sorry. Glad you're enjoying the show.

[@termination9353]

@@bartdehrman The Gospel of Jesus was originally one book, written by Lazarus in consultation with the Apostles [John 21:24] and published soon after Jesus left them on their own. The religion was hijacked by Rome, the Gospel was broken up scrambled adulterated into a bunch of competing narratives. Later four of those adulterated gospels were canonized with falsely ascribed authorship and a Gnosticism cover-story. It was the finding of an original Gospel of Jesus scroll in Jerusalem that gained the Knights Templar power over the Church and their eventual undoing when the church finally retaliated against them. Friday 13th.

[@Aurealeus]

@@termination9353 Source??

[@termination9353]

@@Aurealeus @Jeremy supported by Gospel scripture John 21:24 "This is the disciple[whom Jesus loved/ Lazarus] which testifieth of these things, AND WROTE THESE THINGS: and we[Apostles] know that his testimony is true." John 11:5 Now Jesus LOVED Martha, and her sister, and LAZARUS John 11:3 Therefore his sisters sent unto him{Jesus], saying, Lord, behold, HE[Lazarus] WHOM THOU LOVEST is sick.. John11:36 Then said the Jews, Behold how he[Jesus] LOVED him[Lazarus]!

[@Aurealeus]

@@termination9353I realize the bible references Lazarus. I meant, what is the source of the claim that the "gospel of Jesus was originally one book written by Lazarus"?

[@rickolsonmusic]

Thank you.

[@ericfair-layman2429]

Interesting Ehrman chooses James Joyce to illustrate inconsistent writing styles when one of the accomplishments of his masterpiece, Ulysses, is that each of the chapters was written in different styles. I'm sure he's right about determining forgeries, but it's still a funny example

[@questioneveryclaim1159]

Stoic Philosopher Epictetus - "When someone takes a stand against a view that is simply true, it's not easy to find any kind of reasoning that will make them change their mind. That's not because they aren't intelligent or that you're not explaining things clearly. When someone is imprisoned by their views they harden into stone. How can you deal with them by using reason?"

[@gatewaytobeing]

Love you two in your matching glasses! :)

[@alflyle9955]

One defense I've heard more than once as to why some of Paul's letters are so different in style but are still his own is that Paul dictiated these letters, and the scribe imposed his own style and vocabulary and grammar in recording Paul's ideas. This would account for why some of Paul's letters seem so different but are still Paul's intended communications. I would like to hear Bart's comments on this fundamentalist apologetic.

[@vawor4471]

Doesn't make sense. If I dictate a document and you write what I dictate, the documents should be similar in vocabulary coz it's me speaking. No?

[@jessknauftofsantaynezvalle4111]

Even in our day, a good secretary will often make stylistic suggestions to the person they are working with so as take into account what would best relate to the reader. Also, a typical pastor will frequently change the style of their sermons, letters & articles to communicate more effectively with their audiences. Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 9:22 “I have adapted to the culture of every place I’ve gone so that I could easily win people to Christ.”

[@aj7009]

Bart my Guru👍

[@MichaelFenley]

Thank you Dr Ehrman. Always above the bar.

[@utubepunk]

9:33 *I'm totally meme'ing this. Only 7 of 27 books in the NT are considered authentic!*

[@bartdehrman]

Hey it's Chris writing for Bart. That's not exactly correct if you phrase it like that. We have 4 gospels who don't claim to be written by a particular author so while it's true we can't authenticate who wrote them like we can the 7, it would not be accurate to point them out as if they're forgeries

[@utubepunk]

@@bartdehrman Thank you for the clarification. It's not my intention to misrepresent Bart. Is it more accurate to say, _Excluding the gospels, only 7 of the remaining 23 books are considered authentic?_

[@utubepunk]

​@@bartdehrmanChris, ya left me hanging!

[@user-tn8oe6eb7u]

It's very nice to have such guys, they play a very crucial role. And for us who seek God's face will delve deeper and find God who changes not. In another place erhman says he's not a Christian, that is why he will not arrive at the truth 2 Timothy3:7.

[@TheWayOfRespectAndKindness]

The truth shall set you free. Many say that lying is “okay” in certain circumstances. Few are truly free.

[@nabil.c]

Megan is so polite, so smart and engages very well, we love Megan, probably she doesn't believe in God, but God bless you Megan!

[@cuzned1375]

Something just occurred to me, and i thought, “Best thing to do? Type it into the internet void!” So here goes. The 7 undisputed epistles of Paul - do we actually know (or think we know) that _Paul_ wrote them? Or just that _the same person_ wrote all 7 of them? EDIT: Ah, Bart says it’s the latter. Should’ve listened 5 minutes longer before typing. 😆 In which case, i wish the conventional lingo would change. Everyone (including Bart) says, “We know these 7 are by Paul,” when they really mean, “We’re confident that these 7 have the same author, and i guess we’ll call him Paul.”

[@maxgoedl7119]

So when all is said and done, Dr Ehrman says that the Bible is definitely not "full of forgeries". The gospels are anonymous, most of Paul’s letters are undisputed and scholar have doubts about three letters of Paul - but no consensus exists that any of the books contained in the NT are forged, though some may be pseudepigraphical.

[@Questioner365]

So, Mark Hoffman was a pretty convincing forger (matching ink, paper and style)? But it's even nicer to make God in your own image so He has to "say the words" you want him to say.

[@footballhistorychanges]

Hello Bart & Megan! 🙂 Thanks for a great show. I learned a lot. 👍 I am very curious about ghost writing though. I realize it must be irrelevant to some books, but to others perhaps not. Are there any possibly examples in NT? Would ghost writing end up as forgery or questionable?

[@Aurealeus]

There are many examples in the NT... the book of Acts and the four gospels, just to name a few. Ghost writing was a common practice during ancient times. "Forgery" is a modern concept.

[@darrylviljoen6227]

Not really. If memory serves, A number of Paul's letters were written by scribes which we know because some of his letters mention "written in my own hand"

[@mikefrench4787]

Very sophisticated indeed 😎

[@michaelsommers2356]

I thought the Golden Rule was, "Do unto others before they do unto you."

[@VajrahahaShunyata]

Thats the russhist version.... Mixed with imperialist paranoia

[@ColinWrubleski-eq5sh]

Do unto others, then beat a hasty retreat...^^

[@AndMakrid]

19:50 There is a small detail in the epistle to Titus that connects the writer of the epistle to St. Paul - and it's a paradoxical connection. It is the verse, 1:12: "One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, 'Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.'". Who was the man who uttered that phrase - a famous phrase in antiquity? His name was Epimenides, one of the oldest wise men of the Greeks who was also considered to be a sort of a "shaman", i.e. a man who could contact the gods. Epimenides was requested by the Athenians to disperse with his rituals the "Cylonian curse", a devastating epidemic which the Athenians viewed as a punishment of the gods for a murder which had been carried out in the Temple of goddess Athena - the protector of the city. Epimenides proposed some reforms in the laws and ethics of the city, and as for its purification, he ordered the rulers of Athens to gather black and white sheep on the hill of Areopagus and let them to break free. Wherever every sheep would stop, they should make an altar to the god of the nearest temple and sacrifice the sheep. Wherever there wasn't any temple, the altar would be dedicated "to the unknown god". When St. Paul came to Athens, he saw such an altar and was impressed. He used that incident in his famous sermon on the Areopagus (Acts 17:16-34). The writer of the Epistle to Titus, refers to the famous quote of Epimenides about the Cretans, while calling him "a prophet of their own". One could wonder why he didn't use another word ("wise man", "sorcerer", "priest", "seer") one of those which are traditionally used to describe the magicians-priests of the Gentiles? The incident in the entrance of Athens comes to mind. Had Paul searched for information concerning the "altar to the unknown god" he would have certainly been led to the name of Epimenides and later to his famous quite. And if Paul could be impressed by such an act of divine providence, he could as well regard Epimenides as a prophet: a person who, even unknowingly, was the one who first acquainted the idolaters of Greece with the existence of the One, "unknown" God. That connection has been largely ignored by the Christian scholars for reasons which are easily understood. In the context of the quest for the real writer of the Epistle to Titus, I suppose it can be truly useful.

[@Hamann9631]

I just checked 1 and 2 Thessalonians. I don't see the differences Bart mentioned. What are the differences?

[@gabrielk1238]

I heard one of the explanations for anonymous attributions in early christianity is the need to stay protected from persecutions. I would like to hear Dr. Erhman's thoughts on this matter.

[@lorrancelewis7120]

Different audience may be the reason for the difference. Talking to a group of Christians as opposed to a singular person may change the way one writes or speaks

[@pjcWizard]

Are there any writings that were excluded from the canon that some scholars think may have been written by Paul, etc....

[@nathangant7636]

At the moment in our Bible study class, we're studying the part in John 18 in which one of Jesus' defenders, Peter, cuts off the ear of one of the arresting party in the Garden of Gethsemane (he probably was trying for the neck, glanced off and lopped off an ear instead). Dr. Ehrman suggests that it was a story added on later and probably never happened as it was written long after the incident took place. The other gospels don't name the sword wielder, and it's unlikely that the disciples were in the habit of keeping swords on their sides while helping Jesus convert the masses to Christianity. Rather than a forged add-on to the gospel, the written story probably was a distorted event from an earlier oral tradition of the incident. Bart doesn't think the event actually happened, at least not by one of the followers of Jesus who were basically non-violent. So there are deliberate and outright forgeries as well as more innocuous distortions of biblical stories in the New Testament. As Dr. Ehrman might demand from us, reason, logic and careful analysis of the original writings are the best tools to ferret out the wheat from the chaff.

[@brisadelcastillo2840]

Jesus told his disciples to buy a sword. I have read a possible reason for this was so that he would appear as a criminal when he was arrested. That is a plausible explanation and would shed light on why Peter did what is claimed that he did. "Then said he unto them, But now, he that has a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that has no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this which is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end." Luke 22:36-37 Then his disciples said: But they said, “Master, look here! Two swords!” And He said to them, “It is enough.” Luke 22:38

[@nathangant7636]

​@@brisadelcastillo2840 Yes, I think this is the correct interpretation, since later Jesus is saying, "“The one who lives by the sword will die by the sword.” The event only required two swords per Jesus' request. Not to fight against the Romans and their arresting authorities in the Garden of Gethsemane. I think that is the reflection of the prophecy in Isaiah 53:12, as he needed to be condemned for being a part of a group of transgressors, so he needs to be seen next to some erstwhile lawless types who would use swords for their own purposes, whatever illegal acts that may have been necessary. So the two swords, that act of possession alone was" enough" to fulfill the prophecy.

[@jaypie0864]

Nathan, you went from Dr. Ehrman “suggesting” a viewpoint to you declaring “outright forgeries”. Good on you for seeking truth in a bible class, but check your logic, epistemology and hermeneutics. HOW you think is much more important in life than WHAT you think.

[@brisadelcastillo2840]

@@nathangant7636 Makes sense to me too. Peter took it too far. Perhaps he didn't understand why Jesus made that request. "For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept, Line upon line, line upon line, Here a little, there a little.” Isaiah 28:10

[@termination9353]

Jesus was announced as king of Israel in that choice between Jesus and Barabbas. Quickly said, Pilot dressed Jesus up as King, Pilot presented Jesus to the Sanhedrin and high priest among the crowd as "their King". Told the crowd to choose to crucify "their King" or Barabbas. The Saducees and High Priest chose "their king" Jesus to be crucified and instigated the Jewish crowd to choose "their King" to be crucified..... and so the Priesthood anointed Jesus as their king in order for him to be executed. And Pilat published this fact above Jesus head at a time when Jerusalem was most crowded of Jews from all over the realm. What this accomplished was to legalize according to Torah law Jesus' amended covenant and make irrelevant all burdensome Talmudic rules. I think Jesus and Pilat planned it together. Neet trick on the Sanhedrin huh.

[@TheSaleem57]

The words they had to adhere are..Honesty, Sincerity, Upholding the Truth, Professionalism, Controlling emotions either good or bad one, having faith..that all you did will be judged and be evaluated in Hereafter...

[@VajrahahaShunyata]

Unless you are in the ruling class...

[@DrustZapat]

Which of his books are for a general audience/lay people? Is there a way to tell?

[@elisabethm5563]

What about the Maryappirations in Zeitoun? Maryappirations in Kibeho Rwanda? Maryappirations Venezuela?

[@professeurk9277]

Hi, I would like to know if all of these issues are discussed in Misquoting Jesus because I’m looking for a book that is a good start for these matters (forgeries, pseudoepigraphy, anonymous attributions, determining authorship). Thank you.

[@NikoHL]

How can anyone believe in the bible when we know this? I knew that the established church had a completely restricted interpretation of Christianity. Constantine wanted to standardise one set if laws, one Christian "canon" of beliefs, despite the many streams of Early Christian thought. The establishment church/ bible never sat well with me, so that's why I was more interested in the Gnostic Gospels...

[@simonbattle0001]

Had I waited I would see you would answer my question. Thanks Doc. Though it was funny how your rant veered from lies about scripture authenticity into politics. Freudian I can give you, but the reason for the problem it was spot on in my opinion.

[@SadisticSenpai61]

"Take cover, fundamentalists and mythicists!" Historicists consider me a mythicist and mythicists consider me a historicist. 😂

[@avi8r66]

For me it's less important whether the source material is real or fake and more important that the officials assembling the collections, the hebrew bible and later the christian bible, published the collection and based the entire culture of that material. From that point forward that was the doctrine by which they ruled and preached. So all my assessments of the belief are based on that approved content. It's terrific to go under the hood and dissect the source material, and authenticate it, this is absolutely valid, but the beliefs, for me, are based on the final product, and even that is deeply flawed enough to be discredited.

[@mukammaljahaan9517]

It would be great if an "Ask Megan" episode is put out. It would be of great help to Christians in dealing with the problems in the Bible such as the flood myth, exodus, mistakes, forgeries, etc. while holding their faith. For the major part of my life, I believed the Bible was inerrant. But, when I am objectively examining the claims, the majority of them are either debunked or the evidence is inconclusive. Why should one be a Christian in spite of the Bible not being entirely true? It would be interesting to hear Bart's thoughts as well on how he continued to be a Christian when he found out about the problems with the Bible till he left the faith for reasons other than his scholarship.

[@AW-uv3cb]

Hmm, I don't think he's a Christian anymore... The last I heard in one of his lectures, he considered himself an atheist or agnostic, I think. Seems like his road from a devout Christian wanting to study the Bible in order to strengthen its claims to a non-believer, when he realised that a lot of things just don't add up, is not that unique in the world of Biblical scholarship.

[@mukammaljahaan9517]

Yes, he is not a Christian. He gave up Christianity not because of his findings in scholarship but for other reasons such as the existence of suffering and disparity in the world etc.

[@AW-uv3cb]

@@mukammaljahaan9517 I think the two factors went together (they certainly did for me). I seem to remember him mentioning somewhere at least once that the intellectual aspect had a big impact on his views, but sadly I'm not able to give you a specific link, I could have misremembered. I see that you edited your original comment for clarity (rendering my subsequent comment somewhat illogical haha), appreciated 🙂

[@habakkuk2510]

@@AW-uv3cb (Romans 11:1-2) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he "FOREKNEW" (Romans 8:29) For whom he did "FOREKNOW" he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED to the IMAGE OF HIS SON ☝️ According to scripture only 1 ethnic people can be "conformed" to the image of Christ - obviously it's impossible for nonistaelites to be "Christians"

[@jeffryphillipsburns]

Ehrman maintains that he is no longer Christian, but I think that’s because he’s misdefining “Christian”. In any sense profound enough to be worth considering, religion is cultural. Ehrman is very much a product of Christian culture, and he is obviously obsessed with Christianity. I don’t think you can get more Christian than that. The question is not “How can someone be a Christian and not believe the Bible completely literal and inerrant?” but, rather, “How can someone believe the Bible completely literal and inerrant and be considered a sane marginally intelligent adult?”

[@manthroat]

great show and I love your glasses Megan!

[@dorson723]

When you see two writting styles from the same book, you one one style is forged, how do you know the other is not forged

[@emekonen]

Both of them have awesome glasses

[@bartdehrman]

Wait til you see Episode 5!

[@pmvdmeulen]

❤️ love this. So sad muslims aren't allowed to question and investigate like this.

[@clearskybluewaters]

lol Western scholarship of Quran and hadith tradition exists.

[@pmvdmeulen]

@@clearskybluewaters westerners are allowed to question and interpret... followers aren't

[@Endrin911]

@@clearskybluewaters Yours the only religion that is still silencing apostates

[@bobbybailey4623]

Absolutely! The New Testament is never an advocate of the Israelite god. It had a different purpose.

[@NullStaticVoid]

This is undoubtedly the case in Buddhism. There are no original manuscripts because it started as an oral tradition around 500bc. But there was a firm core of canonical texts which all branches of Buddhism share. Even when they differ on doctrine, they will agree on ritual. Then suddenly concurrent with a schism over doctrinal interpretation a new sutra appears! They never say 'this was written by Buddha'. But rather they imitate the discursive style in older texts and will even include the familiar preamble found it many texts. "The blessed one found himself in Deer Park with many bikhus etc...".

[@Endrin911]

This applies to all 5 major religions, dude.

[@jdank85]

I love @digitalhamurabi, Josh and Megan are the best people! Bart is not only a great writer, but a fantastic teacher.

[@spc1689]

Bart, I am a Roman Catholic and I was taught in school that most of the New Testament was written by different sources. The theory was that, the letters, gospels, etc... are attributed to the teachings of Paul or the teachings of Peter, etc... Does that hold any water in your opinion?

[@nayefnayef8382]

a lot of contradictions for sure

[@xxxLoyalFeliciaxxx]

Link to Megan's channel?

[@MusicalRaichu]

Since there is evidence that Paul used amanuenses, could Colossians and Ephesians with similar theology to Paul's had a different style because of the writer? So Paul explained what he wanted to say and the writer put it in their own style. Could the reason for the personal notes in the pastoral epistles be because they were originally Paul's letters and preserved because of advice with archival value, but later modified and updated to reflect changes in church organization? I would not say that this affects 2 Thes. It outright contradicts what Paul wrote in 1 Thes. I wonder when scholars date it? It predicts the Jewish revolt and desecration of the temple which happened, but the second coming did not happen.

[@tgbotg]

Wait, so Philippians was definitely written by Paul and was addressed to the episkopoi and diakonoi, yet 1 Timothy wasn't written by Paul and part of the reason is because of the leadership structure described, including episkopoi and diakonoi? Both statements can't be true, can they?

[@jn5962]

Bart, You are absolutely correct to say there are forgeries in the Bible. I myself, a disciple of Jesus Christ, though not a "scholar" of your definition, also found a number of non-original insertions. Regarding what comprise Holy Scriptures, Jesus says Lu 24:44 “When I was with you before, I told you that everything written about me in the law of Moses and the prophets and in the Psalms must be fulfilled.” Let me say this: ▪︎There are Holy Scriptures and there are scriptures in the Bible. ▪︎The Holy Scriptures are books of Moses, prophets and Psalms - these the LORD has protected to maintain their integrity to this day. ▪︎The scriptures are writings of people written with intentions whether evil, good or bland innocence. They are the epistles in NT. ▪︎The writings of Paul, or those attributed to him, are a banquet served by the devil. One of every ten dishes served, is laced with venom to kill. But Bart, do not reject John's authorship of Revelation just because of language or style. God had dictated word for word that John may write them down.

[@thinkabit7264]

How do you know? The Jewish canon was not assembled until the common era. They had copies of copies of copies just like the new testament. Saying something has been preserved by your god is easily disproven by looking at different versions of the same text. You have a huge burden of proof. First you have to prove there is a god that said anything, then you have to prove that it did, then you have to prove that there are no variations to the text in existence. There are ,many variations in just the English translations much less the Hebrew Your position is untenable unless you can meet these standards. All you have is ' A book says a thing.'

[@jn5962]

@@thinkabit7264 Can you show proof that you had great-grandfathers, as otherwise you can't exist today? How did you know that you are responding to me - a real person, and not to a computer using Artificial Intelligence (AI)? Friend, you will say you are under no obligation to show me any proof to these above. And so, neither am I obliged to prove to you the living LORD God, Creator of human beings - you and I. The LORD gives each one of us freedom to believe or not believe in His existence. The one who believes and honours Him, He will receive and care for him/her. But the one who refuses to believe in Him, he/she will be left alone, uncared for. Every child needs parents to provide and care for him/her. But when children grow up, some will rebel and deny their parents. Let me be clear: ▪︎I personally know my father and mother, who birthed and raised me up in this physical world. ▪︎I personally know my Father, and His Son who raises me up anew, in the spiritual Kingdom of God. ▪︎I love my Father, Brother, and my father, mother and all my human siblings. I need not say anymore.

[@thinkabit7264]

I have photographs of my father, grandfather and great grandfather, I have family documents proving they were alive. I have letters from them to other family members. I have property documents of land and houses they owned. You have nothing to prove your god. You have a story book full of errors, false statements and claims cobbled together by semi literate camel herders. Your book tells the story of an angry vain jealous god (his words) who is so inept he regrets creating humans and destroys the world with a flood to cover up his mistakes. So much for omniscience. You have a god so clueless that he claims to have formed the Earth and the oceans before the stars and has plants, trees and grasses before the sun. Oh dear. Ever heard of photosynthesis? Classic! Worse, it is a genocidal god who orders Amalekite men women and children and babies slaughtered but lets the Israelites keep the virgin's for themselves. You have a god endorsing slavery in Exodus 21 and Leviticus 25 allowing you to' buy your slaves from the heathen that surround you and pass them to your children and inheritance 'as they are your property'. Lovely. Yahweh, a minor Canaanite god with wife Asherah gets promoted when a little band leaves Canaan and sets up camp in the hills. A group that were never in Egypt in slavery as described and of which the Exodus is shown by science to be a myth. A band that claims to destroy Jericho a millennia after the Egyptians had already destroyed it. A god so inept he has to create a world flood (which we know is nonsense) to cover up his mistakes. A god who delights in killing babies as in Psalm 137 "Blessed shall he be who takes your little ones and dashes them against the rock!" A god who demands you kill your beloved wife or husband, family members and children if they think about worshipping other gods (Deuteronomy 13.7) And then to somehow fix up his screwup into garden of Eden where he blames Adam and Eve and curses all humans for eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil which by definition they could not have known was wrong, before they did it. Then he creates a son without Mariam's consent - a sort of god rape, (by the way the word virgin 'betula' for virgin does not appear in the original Hebrew prophecy, it is 'almah' for 'young woman' but nevertheless he apparently creates a son who is him, that he arranges to be tortured and killed (but you can't kill a god which is him anyway, so he never actually dies), to make retribution for rules he created and was in charge of and that he screwed up.... Then you have no contemporary sources who can provide any proof if Yeshua even existed and if he did what he said or did. It's all hearsay third person. A magical telephone game. (Tacitus and Josephus weren't even born when he was supposedly wandering around) Then we have Matthew 5 where Yeshua says you must follow the Jewish law and the prophets (the old testament) to the letter until heaven and Earth pass away. So I guess slavery is back on... Then he also says Well its 2,000 odd years and we are still waiting. Another failed apocalyptic Jewish prophet. At least Simon bar Kokhba had the guts to take on the Romans. And lastly you have the gospel of Mark the oldest, the original version of which ends at 16:8 with the women running from the tomb and telling no-one... No magical post resurrection appearances... I mean Harry Potter has more consistency and credibility...

[@gregorykelly8000]

The golden rule means do to them what they do to you. If your not strong enough to treat them the way they treat you, then treat them the way u want to be treated, cuz they are to you either way.

[@widescreennavel]

You know he is an atheist because he has such a warm and happy laugh. It is an epic laugh!

[@jamesb.russell2942]

Ironic

[@VajrahahaShunyata]

Ricky Gervias....

[@joanneg7646]

Bart used to debate a lot of the theologian ms.. William Craig lane ect.. why not still?

[@movingpicutres99]

Sound volume is not balanced. Deserves better quality audio.🙏

[@lorrancelewis7120]

Is it possible that some of the letters were dictated and the person writing it were different people and that shows the difference. At the end of the letters Paul names the person writing the letter. Also the letters are written at different times in Paul's life

[@jknight714forCHRIST]

So a person living in the second century very familiar with whats going on believes the disciple John wrote the gospel of John, and actually writes a discourse on it, but now modern scholars dont believe he wrote it...

[@MissMentats]

Ooo I feel like I’m in a mystery cult!

[@RoseSharon7777]

We dont even know if Paul was his real name. It could have been anyone who took the original texts and inserted their own doctrines/bias into the texts. It's pretty obvious the Pauline epistles are basically a Roman religion and not the original message of John the Baptist/Jesus. We were warned about men or scribes adding and subtracting to texts to deceive, and mishandling the words of God. I believe that's why we were told to establish the logos of truth by 2 or 3 witnesses line upon line precept upon precept. It appears to me the gospel (s) were written as spiritual allegory/metaphor that were later literalized by Rome with added pagan ideas. I.e. virgin birth, human sacrifice, bodily resurrection, etc. mainly by twisting and misquoting OT verses out of context. A hodgepodge of heresy and apostasy.

[@Charles-wq1uh]

So lets cut to the chase and read the Bhagavad Gita. “Those who cannot renounce attachment to the results of their work are far from the path.”

[@claudiozanella256]

Paul, Paul, Paul...I would like to know what parts of the gospels have been tampered with.

[@esasalonen495]

Could you Megan kindly adjust the volume of Mr.Ehrman to be louder? Or lower your own volume, please. With headphones the sound of your voice comes a bit too loud. Thanks.

[@quintinstrydom2495]

I guess it was good to hear these findings, but I would really recommend that you speak more life on your podcast. Listeners are hearing that we should now disregard some NT letters. How does that influence their relationship with Jesus?

[@stevehoward1980]

Yes it was the symbolism of the bog from Norway Was included in the Bible stolen or part of Seven number for Shure !

[@inregionecaecorum]

One reason I suspect that so much is still Canon, is because there is no longer any centralised Church authority that can revise the New Testament for every denomination. I would presume that they do belong, but with caveats, so long as they are theologically relevant. I would like to see preaching to reflect that there are different and unknown authors.

[@inregionecaecorum]

I had to put my PHD thesis through something called "turnitin" but turnitin is not perfect either, it turned up some text that I had quoted , and not attributed correctly. In fact I could demonstrate that I had attributed it correctly, what turnitin found was an unauthorised copy, taken from of all places my website.

[@Cor6196]

Most Christians don’t think about these points at all. For one thing, they know that God dictated the Bible, every word, in perfect English, and King James, a descendant of King David chosen by God, had it printed and published it for Protestants everywhere. So if you lived in the Roman Empire and wanted a Bible, you went to the bookstore on the corner and bought one. Or one of Jesus’s disciples knocked on your door, asked if you were interested in reading the Good News, and if you were, gave you a copy and invited you to join a Bible Study at the church down the street. Or else it’s something no true Christian would ever even need to consider: God wrote it and I have it - everyone knows that except Catholics and Communists.📖⛪️🛐

[@BGTuyau]

What is Dr. Ehrman so giggly about?

[@djfortunomusic]

I was walking in the woods with 8 others, and as we were walking on the trail suddenly we saw someone in white robes that came out on the trail. We didn't perceived exactly from where he came from but it was from among the trees. As we approached him he said "God, my father loves you all". We stopped and thought this must be a joke or someone crazy. He looked normal (nothing un-natural about his physical appearance), like having a regular person in front of us. Then he said, "God loves you all, the world will soon fall into great troubles". As we listened(some of us were near to him, others at a distance of about 10 to 15 feet away), the ones near heard additional things being said by him, some of us at a distance felt this guy is either crazy or some sort of serial killer who thinks is Jesus. He had hair that reached his shoulders, no beard and olive skin and light brown eyes. As we began to walk away a loud hum with a cracking noise was heard and this person vanished in front of our eyes, literally vanished as if sucked inward into thin air, folded in itself. We freaked out and ran back to our cars. 9 of us testified this at church. This happened at a well known trail in Andover Massachusetts. Vale Reservation, Andover, MA 01810. I think this happened about 1/4 mile into the woods. We know this trail well since before the incident we've walked or mountain bike in them plenty of times before.

[@VajrahahaShunyata]

Yep

[@fretnesbutke3233]

It's pointless to argue with someone's experience. You know the majority of people won't believe a word of it. I stick up at any opportunity for logic,science and critical thinking,so I could reflexively say you were mistaken or are spreading falsehoods. However, without going into details, I'll tell you..I had precisely one utterly inexplicable incident that defies reason and I know what I experienced. No one would believe me,and I can't blame them. That one event causes me to bite my tongue when I hear stories like yours. I won't scoff. 99% of the time, scientific materialism explains everything.,but reality refuses to let go of that pesky 1%. All it takes is one odd turn to find yourself in that Twilight Zone,and it changes everything. Just one time and you scoff no longer. The world is full of charlatans and hoaxers who deserve scoffing. When it's nothing but your own senses, that's another matter.

[@oswinhull4203]

Theopompus would be a great name Christian theologist.

[@JohnKhan]

Wondering how this changes anything in Christian core beliefs if these forgeries are taken out ?

[@colincampbell4261]

Nothing left.

[@sacredrider]

@@colincampbell4261 Ouchh

[@a5cent]

I don't think any of this would be accepted as "forgeries". Even if fundamentalists accepted that parts were written by people claiming to be someone else, they would say the book is inspired by god so any "forgeries" are supposed to be there.

[@jn5962]

Bart, allow me to compliment you. You seem to have tremendous joy - even as an agnostic atheist, than leading Christian apologists have in them. I think the difference is that you have been freed from the imprisonment of Christianity; whereas they are still snared. By the way, I am a disciple of the Way of Jesus, and I am not Christian.

[@janeroberson4750]

The Bible says that the wisdom of man is foolishness to God,,! God is so good, God is so good, God is so good, he's so good to me!!! Praise God,thank you Jesus,! Bless the Lord oh my soul,I love you Jesus,you are my everything!!! Seek God while you can! KJV.he loves you greatly!

[@madmonkee6757]

I need to start reading Greek when I wake up. Δεν εχω χρονο την ημερα.