AccidentReview Learjet 35 Bad Decision

[@rinzler9775]

Back to basics: The higher the G's, and the greater the bank, then the higher the stall speed. Agree, this sounds like a quick pull back on the stick while in a steep bank.

[@FarkyDave]

I like the way you compared the previous flight paths to the accident flight path. THAT made it really clear. Excellent job, as usual, Scott.

[@steveperreira5850]

That’s what made it clear to me and also showing the profile Terrain

[@jameshuggins7320]

Scott, you are the best at this. It’s quite refreshing to hear a sober, informed analysis without excessive ego.

[@Pantherjonvideos]

Superior judgement always trumps superior skills..

[@rogerbartels5223]

Hi Scott. Another great video, as always. There are way too many low time, inexperienced, low skill level pilots operating in conditions that are beyond their skill and experience levels, in both the aircraft and the weather conditions. Pilots should NEVER be modifying or inventing their own approaches. There are many crashes that happened because BOTH pilots were trying to find the runway and neither was really flying the airplane and certainly not monitoring the instruments, which is especially imperative in low weather conditions. Many times I would fly the airplane right to touchdown on the runway, staying on the instruments, while the non flying pilot was monitoring the instruments, as a back up, and also looking out for the approach and landing, and giving me feedback to what he / she sees with the instruments and outside the airplane. As I always told all of my flight instruction students: "if you fly in bad weather and crash the airplane, they will remove you dead body from the wreckage on a sunny day". IF there is not a good straight in precision approach in low weather conditions, go somewhere else. Is the price of a hotel room, aircraft parking and a little more fuel, worth more than your life? That seems to be a tough question for at least some pilots. Tragic!!!

[@rickcline2762]

Another great report Scott. I had not seen the previous ADS-B tracks, very informative. The aircraft management company that I retired from, operating more than 300 aircraft worldwide, absolutely forbid circling approaches in any circumstance. One less thing that the pilots had to sweat out.

[@MichaelLloyd]

I've seen a few reviews but this one ties it all together. Thank you for not playing the audio. I've heard it enough...

[@BadMonkeyTouring]

We were doing our UPRT recurrent training in the Falcon 7X simulator a few days after this accident. After fulfilling the required training, the instructor asked if there was anything else we wanted to do. Though the simulator database does not have KSEE in it, we were able to duplicate this maneuver, using the exact same weather conditions, speeds, and altitudes, configured for a circling approach. I can tell you that in these conditions, keeping the airport in sight was near impossible. When I demonstrated over banking (45 degrees), the nose dropped and there was no way to recover. With the critical wing of the Lear 35A, this was a death sentence. So sad that this occurred.

[@gorgly123]

Seems like the air ambulance operation should have been using another airport as their home base with the marginal runway lengths for the equipment they were flying.

[@homomorphic]

...or they should have had strict requirements as to when they wouldn't fly in, like "no initiation of a flight where the landing would be at night unless skies are completely clear". Sounds like there should he no IMC, day or night either.

[@N34RT]

Rennie Allen - too restrictive and unreasonable, especially for San Diego

[@chuckschillingvideos]

Something tells me this airport was selected purely for economic considerations.

[@markbattista6857]

Yes I thought the same thing

[@thompsonjerry3412]

Reminds me of Aspen, they finally had to close that approach at night to stop the carnage.

[@samrapheal1828]

UNLESS equipped w/Synthetic vision. As per my current understanding.

[@ProbableCause-DanGryder]

Yes, the big box trainers “only” have two airports to use in the sim. KMEM and KJFK. Both with 90 degree left turns to line up. The N880Z accident was an attempted 270 degree turn. An actual circle to land can be a complete 360! Not trained for by any training vendor. Fill the square. Collect the check. Send them out the door.

[@samrapheal1828]

Correctamundo. "It is the business that we choose." - Godfather II

[@zidoocfi]

So glad to hear you speak about the tendency to pull back on the yoke/stick in stressful flying situations. I agree completely. It's that subconscious pull that is so dangerous in several kinds of scenarios -- overshooting final, trying to clear trees when the density altitude is high for takeoff, when trying the stretch the glide, etc.

[@jed1947]

I flew model airplanes for quite a while. This same tendency occurs when you get disoriented. Unfortunately, pulling up when inverted already doesn't help much.

[@oldmech619]

This pilots lack of jet experience at his age is under question as well.

[@SubTroppo]

"Normalized deviance" is the most important phrase in this video for me.

[@charlesfaure1189]

What was it BEFORE it was 'normalized?' There can be no 'normalization' without an initial pattern of plain stupidity.

[@SubTroppo]

@@charlesfaure1189 It was "suck it & see" (whether I/we get caught/reprimanded/fined/admonished {whatever}) ps Many regulations are introduced but never meant to be properly policed and their introduction is effectively virtue signalling by the powers that be. When needed due to conflict or crisis the regulations can be dusted off and enforced in an ad-hoc manner.

[@robertblake7145]

You did a marvelous commentary on this event. As a retired Strategic Air Command USAF Flight Surgeon, we preached SA - Situational Awareness - and the human factors continuously. Modern avionics often dull the human factors in aviation. Your remarks on these elements are so very relevant. Thanks for your correct analysis. Robert Blake, MD, retired

[@NealB123]

"Just because it's legal doesn't make it smart." Truer words have never been spoken.

[@brettbetz8801]

Thank you for your analysis. Thank you for not playing Audio. Former Lear driver here. That Aircraft did have Dee Howard thrust reversers. The best they put on the 35. Way better than Aeronca

[@s4aviator804]

The Aeroncas are wildly, wildly more effective than the Dee Howard’s, but aren’t as bulletproof from a maintenance standpoint. I loved the Dee’s for their reliability, but when I had to take the airplane to a 4,000ft runway, I was happy to have the Aeroncas.

[@FISHH00KS]

Thank you for taking the time to put up the graphics, especially the previous tracks and the final approach. I had a special kind of job in the military that had a 3 year probationary period. The philosophy that drove recruitment "we can't train someone to be intelligent."

[@Mamachup1]

I live less than 10 miles from the crash site and it was drizzling on and off from sunset to midnight of the crash… your observation regarding security cams was spot on!

[@chrislaswell5572]

Thanks for not including the rest of the audio. I actually heard the whole thing after it happened and it was the most horrifying stuff I have heard in a long, long time. Talk about the hairs on the back of your neck...WOW!! Goosebumps all over after hearing that. But there is immeasurable value in learning from it. Prayers to their families and for the repose of their souls. It's an absolute miracle that no one on the ground was hurt. One thing to be thankful for, I guess.

[@Cmoredebris]

Most accurate break down of the accident on KZbin. Thank you.

[@pbjoutdoors6270]

Awesome and well informed analysis, as usual! I also appreciated you not including the final ATC/pilot audio in this one. I heard it one time... don't want to hear it again... prayers and condolences to the families of the lost

[@steveperreira5850]

Me too, I haven’t heard it and I don’t want to, I pity the distress of these people. God rest their souls

[@samrapheal1828]

Spot-on🎯✔

[@richglenn3729]

Thank you for not including the last radio transmissions of this flight. They were haunting. You’re the best Scott. I always learn from your presentations.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

I appreciate that!

[@FlyingDoctor60]

Scott, the point you made at the end--that small companies operating bizjets have a far worse record than 121 operators--is key, I think. The pilots made the bad tactical decision, but company policies, customs, habits and culture put them in the situation where they COULD make a bad tactical decision, instead of positioning them for success. I'm taking some heat online right now for a comment I made about the recent EMS helo crash in Philly, in which all I said was that when an operator has more mishaps than others, it needs to be looked into to determine why. Lots of folks pushed back against that idea. Further evidence of the hidden problem in bizjet ops is the recent court case in Kentucky, in which a professional pilot won a verdict against his former employer, a Part 91 bizjet owner/operator who fired him (poorly, it would seem) when he refused to fly the company jet into a hurricane. This pilot was in his late 60's when he was canned, so he already had a retirement and had the means, both professionally and financially, to defend himself against such abuse. Young pilots just starting out, trying to log turbine time and just happy to have a job, are basically defenseless against operators who value revenue over safety. And to paraphrase you, revenue is meaningless...if you're dead.

[@martinsaunders7925]

When accountants and lawyers are held accountable for their intimidation and the tail ends up in the cockpit this will lead to more survivability

[@michaelh8890]

This was the first I heard about either that airplanes previous circles to 27 or that 27 lacked appch lights. Both are useful clues towards understanding the why of this accident. Nice research & analysis, thx!

[@chucklemasters6433]

the why of this accident is the morons who decided to start a 135 operation out of this woefully inadequate airport

[@bobcornford3637]

@@chucklemasters6433 For sure this is the root cause.

[@SmittySmithsonite]

Dan mentioned that when he was going down into the corn in IL this past summer at his ACCA event, that even he had to fight the extremely strong urge to yank up on that yoke. Instinct is a powerful force to overcome! Glad you didn't play the audio. Once was enough for me. God rest their souls.

[@kevinmalloy2180]

Thanks as always for the no-nonsense analysis.

[@lawrencefisher5256]

Excellent presentation Scott! Thanks.

[@M1911jln]

Something that doesn't seem to be addressed is the question about whether that Lear 35 should have even been based at Gillespie Field. Given the limited instrument approaches and the relatively short runways, it seems to me that basing that aircraft at Gillespie was inevitably going to result in the crew having to make difficult go/no-go decisions. I agree completely about this being a normalization of deviance. Circling to land at night in bad weather with hills close to the approach end of the runway? Completely unsafe.

[@BixbyConsequence]

Yeah, there don't seem to be any reasonable IFR options for that aircraft.

[@megenberg8]

@@BixbyConsequence nope, none.

[@neatstuff8200]

This Is true but think about it. this is as good as average climate gets on Earth. This airplane should not circle. The check ride has circle to check a box. Better question. Why is he circling with high min limitation? First this is prohibited on approach for a reason. Second. He is not legal because it is a reckless and unsafe maner. He needs t o lose his license. Third Part 91 makes it possible but so is a take off at zero zero.... Kindergarten stuff for a pro. I follow roads if you are not one. RIP. Thank GOD NO ONE ELSE HURT LIKE WOULD BE IN A 400 SEATER. Not NEAT!!!

[@sarahbrown9293]

Excellent! Love the underlying commentary that is so important to how flying really works! I'm real tired so I probably didn't say that clearly.... not flying tonight!

[@madelinescafe8573]

Another great analysis. The other circle to land accident this past year was Truckee CA. How unfortunate.

[@PilotDave85]

Truckee has been that way forever. In 2000 I remember Exxon showing us a video at EAA of a infrared GPS straight in approach through the boxes for a Gulfstream into Truckee runway 28. The future 0:0 technology. It doesn't exist still. Truckee is tight. You don't want to go in there with low vis. Learned to fly there!

[@theflyer4916]

Hi Scott. I really appreciate your comprehensive analysis. One item I do take exception to however was your statement on thrust reversers. Every Lear 35 and 55 aircraft I flew had thrust reversing. I would say a lack of thrust reversing would be more uncommon.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Except it didn't come from the factory as standard equipment.

[@theflyer4916]

Yes but the majority of Lear 35’s are equipped with the Dee Howard reverse system. Just thought that might be helpful. Thanks.

[@davidbee4515]

The previous ADSB tracks were a big eye-opener. Thanks, Scott. Great work as usual.

[@CentralStateMower]

This is exactly what I thought, this operator had done the "17-circle to land 27" approach several times before and had gotten away with it...until this tragic day. Condolences to the families.

[@steveperreira5850]

Seems like he was flying like a barnstormer. This is kind of crazy. I wouldn’t want to try it in a Cessna 150!

[@Brimmlinn]

Scott, I have been looking forward to your take on this accident and you did not disappoint. The only gripe I have, and this is not just with this video, is that every single video I have watched that includes pictures of the accident aircraft mentions that “it’s unknown if the aircraft had TR’s, they were not standard equipment” or something to that effect. Yet in every picture of the accident aircraft shown in the video clearly shows it has having the Dee Howard TR mod installed. 20 year ramp rat and A&P here in West Central Florida and I have seen as many air ambulance Lear 35’s as anyone could imagine. In the last 15 years it’s actually very rare to find a Lear 35 that doesn’t have TR’s installed. So much so that it looks funny without them. Okay, end of rant. :)

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

No worries and you're right it did have TRs. But in that area I have no experience. I needed you to call on when I put the video together.

[@Brimmlinn]

@@FlyWirescottperdue Like I said, your video was certainly not the only one to do the same. Both Juan and Dan said the same thing in their videos and I hold the opinions and information from all three of you in high regard. Thank you for all the great content.

[@Joe_Not_A_Fed]

You're perspective is always valuable. Thanks, Scott.

[@SM-if4nz]

Scott I've watched a couple other channels present this accident. Being a non pilot but in AD operations for many years I appreciate your perspective and depth of explanation, it gives much greater detail and clearer explanation of exactly what happened. Keep up the good work for safer aviation.

[@emergencylowmaneuvering7350]

We used to do and they still do a lot of circlings in South America. Yes, even on airliners. Did a lot. You plan well, when to slow down, flaps, gear, speeds, bank angles, winds, turning points, ATC. The 2 main mistakes are.. 1- like this guy did; to Turnback too soon to the airport after overhead . He had a tailwind on base leg. Wider teardrop needed. or 2- To turn back to the runway too shallow bank after first leg of the teardrop to fly away for spacing, specially with a tailwind on the base leg area he had. Many stalls due shallow bank on the tailwind side of the turnback, then steepen the turn or pull up elevator too much on the final leg alignment which will slow down, but stall you. Many stalls on landing maneuvering. . Most jets on C and D cat. need almost one mile wide circle of turn. He needed to do a 270 degrees of total turn. A "Teardrop Shaped Turnback to the airport from overhead". Turning back to the airport too soon instead of waiting of one mile out, he made the Teardrop Turnback one mile wide needed too tight, maybe pulled back elevator in fear of overshooting final alignment. or slowed down in the pull up, . And stalled it. Many accidents like that on prop planes too. Maneuvering for landing are common stalls all over. Many dont know how to do Tailwind Turnbacks even if under 180 degrees, to alignment very well. Strong winds GRM, and Turnbacks are not taught on most schools. They dont want to talk about "difficult maneuvers" at all. Stupid, but true. Many rather cancel the flight because "That turn you have to do there". or try it, and in the maneuvering mistakes, have to do a go around and have to go to another airport with no turning to align at all. That messes up the flight schedules and produces thousands of flight delays a year. Just because the pilot cannot do "those turns". Or they mess up the turnback, go miss approach, then LOC in the clouds and crash. In SA you will be fired if you cannot do under TPA circlings very well. I call turns over 180 degrees "A Turnback Turn", not just a turn. A turn can be 90 degrees or 140 150 degrees of turn and much easier to complete. Turnbacks are more difficult and dangerous. They need training, not BS substitutes like some schools teach instead of a full turnback. A simple 90 degrees side step circling to land with favorable winds, like most flight schools in USA teach only, is BS. Any idiot can do a 90 degree turn with wimpy winds. And die on a 180 degree plus real Turnback.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Absolutely true. Thanks for sharing!

[@samrapheal1828]

Truth 🎯

[@haroldland4620]

This is the only chanel I watch on this topic.Your calm low key approach rocks 🙂

[@davidrichter57]

I've watched three or four videos that addressed the circumstances of this accident. This one is the best by a wide margin. Thanks!

[@cal-native]

The weather seemed much more marginal than the report indicated (I'm in San Diego). I was outside but had to come in due to deteriorating conditions, about 1/2 hour before the crash.

[@lbowsk]

Slam dunk summation. Retired airline guy here and you're exactly right. We never did crap like this under 121. Circling, at night, at mins, no runway lights REIL or approach, high terrain nearby, .....it just doesn't add up. Plus, the FO is circling to the LEFT at night. No thanks. I recently took a job flying a Hawker and a Citation, Part 135 and 91. I'm sure that I will have to piss the bosses off every once in a while by saying "no, I'm not going to do that". Particularly when others have previously already done it for them. Easy to say NO now.

[@samrapheal1828]

Correctamundo 💯

[@bruceabrahamsen221]

I flew commuter and night cargo in the northeast for years. I never did circling approaches at night. There was always the pressure from owners of these ops. There was more then one time when I parked an airplane, and went home to my wife and son. My life was more important than money and a job. You had to know where to draw the line. If you can learn to do that, you will become an old pilot.

[@samrapheal1828]

Truth🎯

[@Errr717]

It was pretty foggy that night so it would have been very difficult for them to distinguish the difference between the runway lights and the street lights. I live in San Diego so here when it gets foggy sometimes you can't see 10 feet in front of you.

[@SciFly7]

Very good analysis here Scott. I do have to say that in the airline I work for, we do 'circling' approaches on the 737, however, these are company tailored approaches which have to be approved and are included in the FMC. And of course, only in day VMC. We operate into quite a few Category C airports surrounded by mountainous terrain, so we also have to do simulator training for each of these airports. Visual approaches are prohibited night and day. In cases where we have no GPS coverage for the FMC visuals, circling procedures are established using VOR reference points and this is also done in the simulator.

[@bobcornford3637]

Good work Scott. Straight and to the point.

[@gayleyb1233]

This is the best commentary I've heard on flying. Your knowledge is broad , comprehensive and good old common sense.

[@mykalhenry]

The previous approaches looked flawless. This brings it all home, nice job.

[@topguncg47]

Awesome analogy . Great job.

[@jimmydulin928]

Your suggestion to add power and go around or missed approach when complying with circling MDA, Gunny, is the better one. As a last resort, however, it would be less deadly to use the vertical space still remaining to bank steeper while allowing the nose to go down. The bank steeper would be to miss the hill. Allowing the nose to go down naturally as designed in a turn would be to unload the wing. An unloaded wing cannot stall at any bank angle.

[@blueskyliao8480]

Very informative and educational analysis with prior flight information on this jet. Rest In Peace for those 4 people on board.

[@TheBeingReal]

Great review. Sadly one suspects they got complacent with that workaround and it cost them.

[@flymachine]

Fantastic job, you present the facts and make the observations calmly and with reverence, unlike others who chase and cause controversy and portray an arrogance as if flying for a living and having experience on many types justifies it, few can match your experience yet you remain humble and respectful.

[@steveperreira5850]

To me, by far Scott is the best. I trust him in every single situation. He does not let flying go to his head. What a good teacher he is. He always tries to teach us something to live by. I like the part where he talks about the hair on the back of your neck as an early warning …. That is easy to remember and if it happens you should abort the plan and get into safe air space and rethink for a safer landing elsewhere, or whatever

[@jjmcwill1881]

Best explaination I have heard so far. As a non Pilot I thought they mistook street lights for the runway. You make it clear that they stalled out.

[@larryegilman1]

Very thoughtful and thorough,....and thank you for not playing the cockpit recording

[@ldoyle3rd]

Well done, the only real surprise here is that it didn't happen sooner given this seems to have been a standard procedure with this outfit.

[@darreno1450]

So far, this is the most informative video on this accident I've seen. Great work!!

[@wicked1172]

I really like your format. One of my take aways from this analysis is, "how far would you push it to get home"? I committed that mistake once and never want to go there again.

[@jacknimble7950]

10:40 "Back of the neck hair trigger alert".... niiice device👌

[@maxcorder2211]

Behind the power curve. + night & weather. Stacked on top of each other.

[@BruceTGriffiths]

Scott, you are so right on about the hairs on the back of your neck. Thank you for your continued input.

[@Coops777]

Excellent commentary thankyou.

[@Maynardtkrebs]

Great analysis. So true. Do not push your personal envelop into the unknown.

[@deancook6832]

One question I haven't seen anyone address is why is this operator basing this aircraft out of this field. It is obvious that the airport is very marginal for a Lear 35 and a poor airport for any operation that requires all weather capability. Surely there are better airfields in the area for this airplane.

[@AviatingPassion]

You do a great job ! Thanks for keeping us learning we appreciate your hard work.

[@richsarchet9762]

If you are right about it being the FO flying the approach, it doesn't help that he was sitting on the right side of the airplane for this left turning approach. I don't have Lear 35 time, but even a Seminole is pretty blind from the right side in left traffic - I wouldn't try what they tried in a Lear, in a Seminole, even though my ratings say I could.

[@daveshepherd7582]

It also occurs to me that this airport may not have been the best place to be based out of, especially for performance aircraft which is often expected to fly in all types of weather conditions.

[@TedwardDrives]

Thanks for not including the final radio comms. I've heard it once. I don't ever want to hear that scream again.

[@lostcreek163]

Circling approaches don't receive the emphasis needed for proficiency. Well done Scott!

[@JD-go1nq]

Thanks for putting this together.

[@suttonmatthew]

I think you are spot on. Thank you for your analysis.

[@tsmgguy]

In the security video still at 9:30 you can see the Lear's landing lights. They appear to be at about 45 degrees from the horizontal to each other, meaning a 45 degree bank at the time.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

I’m all probability.

[@Darkvirgo88xx]

I read the final on this one the other day. The copilot was flying and their conversation on the the cvr reminded me of the teterboro Learjet crash. The copilot stated this is dicey and the captain agreed The Captain then stated he saw the mountain which is the obstruction that makes circle to land prohibited at night. Then he asked for the controls to make the left turn and told the copilot to watch the speed. Immediately after the copilot begins yelling speed speed more speed and they crash.

[@darrens.4322]

Great presentation. Some insider chatter, allegedly there was a sudden changeover from F/O who was PF, to the captain who had been monitoring up until the changeover. Don't know if PIC asked for controls, or what. Still waiting to see exactly where that happened in the pattern. The NTSB final report with a probable cause and the release of docket materials to public, is way past due. Usually on more serious crashes like this, it is about 18-24 months. We are approaching the 29th month with still no report. I followed this closely as I learned to fly @ KSEE, and also was in the air ambulance business, and we used LR35's and I also chartered many them, as I focused on the business side of aviation, and did not fly professionally. I have however, studied crashes and air safety since 1976. This crash reminds me of both the KTEB LR35 stall/spin, on a circle (N452DA), and the Challenger crash at Truckee later on (N605TR). Very eerie similarities. As you well know, the Learjet 23/24/25/27/35 wings (airfoil) even with the MODS, is not accepting of mis-flying, exceeding the critical AoA. I am wondering IF the accident aircraft going into Gillespie Field, if those two pilots up front were using the AoA-%/deg indicator as part of the instrument scan (for Pilot Flying/PF). Seems they risk-stacked, did not remind themselves of the Swiss Cheese Model, and very tragically the airplane bit them with unconscionably consequences, due to a likely accelerated stall. We discuss these event to learn and so some other pilots may get an education. Complacency kills, pilots had familiarity with their operating base of KSEE, may have led them into a false sense of security due to comfort. I sure wish I could dial-back time and bring those 4 good folks back, but it is done. Now we can continue to learn. In hindsight, I wish they either would have stayed on 17, even with shorter runway, though agree it was contaminated due to the light rain. Were they technically on the Part 91 phase since they dropped patient and were ferrying home? Maybe not since it was still a revenue portion of the overall flight. So yes, 135 likely dictated more RW like the 5,000+ they'd get on 27R. I sure wish maybe they'd just flown to Montgomery and did the straight-in ILS, or diverted to Brown or Lindbergh. Getting an Uber to go get all of your cars and go home, and do the reversal next day to get the bird back to base, is really a great decision. As one reader in these forums said, he makes good decisions and enjoys the fact he is in his hotel room enjoying some adult beverages, watching the news, versus ending up on the news. Thanks again for your channel!

[@bobcfi1306]

The company choice to operate this aircraft from this airport was a bad decision. The accident was almost inevitable.

[@lexteakmialoki5544]

You commented on the same thing I was going to say. Seems this airport was not at all good for a jet. And given they were flying possible medical emergencies the option to fly when the weather was good would be reduced. You wonder what people are thinking (or not) when they chose this arrangement. "almost inevitable" should have driven them to a different decision.

[@bobcornford3637]

Yes, spot on. Airport totally unsuitable for this type of operation.

[@gretchenlittle6817]

I read somewhere else that this airport charged the lowest fees in the area? Not judging the decision, but...

[@Chuck_Carolina]

Bob, I was thinking the exact same thing.

[@MegaSunspark]

Why is this airport even there? ...with two good sized hills so close to the airport.

[@mauricehrolfe4466]

I like your comments and I concur although i don't have a medical to fly atm and I wonder if i will get it back ! The stall spin was driven into me in 1969 when learnt to fly in Australia in a Victa airtourer I still own two ,also a Baron B55 , Auster J 5 P and a DH 89 A . STALL SPIN so important !

[@tcook6759]

Excellent video Scott.

[@etudigger3340]

My condolences to those who lost their lives and their families and friends. Another case of "get there-itis." I'm not a pilot, but I do enjoy Scott's analysis of all things aviation.

[@AmericanBonanzaSociety]

Good discussion, Gunny. Another point: in the prior examples of this aircraft's circling the airplane was 500 to 700 feet higher before the turn maneuver began, well above the (daytime) circling minimums for the Learjet. On the accident flight the airplane was at only 700 feet even before beginning the visual maneuvering, well below circling and even straight-in minimums for that approach. They *may* have canceled IFR while still above minimum altitude at that point in the approach but at least 500 feet below the clouds to maintain VFR minimums, but it would have been hard to do that and still get to 700 feet crossing the north end of the airport. My point is that even if they had normalized deviance and in doing so developed their own standard operating procedure for this "cancel-circle" arrival, they violated their own SOP by descending to well below even a normal visual traffic pattern altitude on this one flight--dooming the circle maneuver to failure even before making the first turn away from the inbound course on the approach.

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Good point, plus the pilot turned a LOT earlier, leaving less turning room for the maneuver.

[@billylain7456]

Another excellent video. Scott. Thanks again.

[@bobstewart195]

Excellent comments & analysis....always enjoy your youtube video's & discussion....please keep up the great work! PPL 1977

[@fdllicks]

as a nonpilot, it surprised me how complicated the landings options were. There are hills, short runway, learjet cant make a turning radius, some things not allowed at night, jeesh. It never ended. What is wrong with fly straight in and land on a long runway? Maybe these airports have too many issues and variables. More simplicity needed in the system. Again, a nonpilot.

[@paulsayer8248]

Thanks for what you do Scott.

[@bradbrown7555]

If you look at the previous approaches they were more offset when overflying the field than they were that night. This set them up closer to the big rocks. They were probably seeing a blinking red light on top of the mountain that was awfully close, and higher than they were.

[@Paul1958R]

They definitely seem to be much further east when they overflew 17 that night than in the three previous 17CTL27

[@shannonparker7404]

Thank you sir. Just plain thank you for your time and effort.

[@richardmadison6826]

"Convenient is not relevant when your dead." Best line I have heard in a Long Time!

[@hosegooseman5]

Great job. Thanks for sharing. Saludos!!!

[@mikentx57]

In the Ring videos the ground looks wet to me too. Also you can see that he is going in and out of the clouds as he scoots along at the bottom of the cloud layer. That combined with his turn that went further to the east and wider than he was used to. Plus the airport was 30-40 degrees more to his right than he expected, he could not see the airport and why waned the lights turned up.

[@tao5664]

Excellent analysis. Thanks!

[@jonathanwilliams5225]

Mr Purdue, I am fascinated by flying. Will most likely never do it bc I am lower middle class. I just wanted to say thank you for your service then and now. I love your videos and have a great deal respect for you. Thanks

[@JohnBaleshiski]

If you are young, join the Civil Air Patrol. Even if you are over 18, you will have opportunities to fly as a mission scanner and mission observer and get time on controls. As a cadet, if you are serious and diligent about it you can earn your PPL for free.

[@robfess23]

Great explanation and professionalism

[@Icriedtoday]

Thank you for not including those tragic utterances in the last seconds of their life. I heard them on another channel and it’s too haunting for any potential benefit KZbinrs might gain.

[@edwardbentley]

Regionals have the same restriction for circling “VMC only “. First let me say my prayers are for the families, This is definitely gethomeitis, and the sad part is KMYF Montgomery Field was less than 10 miles away with an available ILS, but the desire to land at your base of operation is can be overwhelming. I have made that approach during day vfr and it is tough, but so fault has to go to the FSDO for allowing these companies to cancel IFR, so they can circle when it’s not authorized.

[@EleanorBrand]

My car is parked at KSEE!

[@kylejenkin6567]

Thanks so much for doing the work on this, great video!

[@bnato8209]

Great measuring stick. I agree.

[@suttonmatthew]

The best analysis to date (1.14.2022)

[@NavyGuy2OO7]

"Normalized deviance" is a great way to put it. When I was running a squadron safety office that was one of the things we harped on a lot. When we get so use to not following procedures because nothing happens complacency sets in and it becomes the norm. The way to avoid that is to do everything by the book. I used to have a department head that I overheard one time talking to a junior pilot saying that he had a couple thousand hours flying the aircraft yet he pulled out the checklist every time and followed it step by step every time even though he could probably recite it to you in his sleep. I think you're absolutely right that the pilots lost SA, probably so focused on finding the runway nobody was monitoring the instruments, missed the level of bank, altitude and airspeed. This accident is probably going to come to an ultimate cause of pilot error with contributing factors of training, complacency, and a culture of "Gotta get there now."

[@FlyWirescottperdue]

Thanks for the comment!

[@dennisfogarty7891]

I agree completely with your point about doing circling approaches at MEM or JFK. Every one of the simulator scenes used by the big box trainers should support circling minimums if the airport as published circling mins. Great video

[@EleanorBrand]

It wasn’t a circle. They cancelled IFR to avoid being illegal. A VFR/ visual pattern is not a circle. They were below circle mins that were only legal day only. They were not on a special VFR clearance either. 1 mile clear of clouds. (A stupid maneuver at Gillespie at night) There’s mountains all around that place. Hence, no night circle allowed. They were below TPA in poor viz, tight to be able to see and flew right at higher terrain. Yank and bank slow baby.

[@tsutfin67]

Very nicely presented and sage words. Thank you.

[@jed1947]

You show this accident as another sad but CLASSIC example of "When Doing Wrong Feels So Right: Normalization of Deviance" - an organizational complex failure mode. The pilots were the final link but the repeated use of fault intolerant ad hoc circling approaches should have been addressed by the service operator, its chief pilot, the NTSB (prior accidents) and the FAA (allowing bizjets this degree of operational freedom). Dan Gryder's impatience with the NTSB is sometimes hard to take, but c'mon man!

[@davidbaldwin1591]

Great story, and although I was only on a 757 twice, I loved it.(Still cherish my photos of the Olympic range out of a Delta window) I can see why you made a career of flying.