Full hearing: Appeals court hears case against parents of Oxford shooter in dismissal attempt

[@jimtussing]

Judge: “…and it’s ‘the court’ - not ‘you guys’…” Attorney: “Obviously. I know that you guys are very busy…” 😂

[@skoolie_life3261]

😂😂 She clearly don’t listen

[@TeaSpiracy]

She's so cringey

[@carolecoote1926]

Can any of us who are not in the legal profession imagine we would address a Judge as ‘You guy’.

[@ShoeChic5441]

IKR..... She is still unprofessional in 2024 during the actual trial

[@oqlus]

Almost a year later, she still hasn’t gotten any better at this.

[@dianedavidson7977]

He was 15 unwell and they buy him a gun for Christmas. 15 yrs old and then take off running leaving the kid to fend for himself in prison unbelievable.

[@Linusdmc]

that’s it, how the cookie crumbles. You would run also if you think the law would come after you because your kid failed himself.

[@JaneDoe-tr5xy]

They were hiding from the press and didn't know there was a warrant out for their arrest as no parent has been criminally liable for their child's criminal acts.

[@kathiewool4292]

@@JaneDoe-tr5xyoh please they weren’t hiding from press. They emptied out their bank accounts and his.

[@ABirdWoman]

“You guys…” and after the court admonished her, she said it again!!

[@Brenda-fh2iv]

i know!!! smh!!

[@melodieshimon]

She’s so unprofessional

[@Ebiru2387]

She is a moron

[@stephernoodle]

These judges hit the nail on the head. The fact that James’ first action upon hearing of an active shooter was to go home to check on the gun really shows that this was foreseeable harm

[@StephenSmith-fz8fb]

You are not considering in your foreseeable statement that he had in the moment new information that their is right now a shooting at the school.

[@jadeshaw3621]

Yes 🙌🏼

[@stephaniecarlson6689]

Why does a young Teenager require a gun - for goodness sakes 😢

[@tonybarden9187]

Why does anyone need a gun, especially the good guy that gets a gun & than kills school children over & over & over, becoming the bad guy with a gun, pure madness, don’t worry though the next school shooting is just around the corner.

[@esmeduplessis941]

That is the first and most important question!!!!! There was a WARNING sign, and they ignored it 80%, 79% too much ignoring and too busy and worrying about horses etc. So many shootings at schools, and parents should be aware and vigilant. That defense lawyer's got to many answer and she's got no hindsight. These parents should never have bought that gun, I know she's doing her job, but should start forgetting the limelight!!!

[@thatonegirl4676]

Especially one that was seeing and hearing things that weren't there. His parents knew that he was insane!

[@ShoeChic5441]

For Christmas no less. Mind you now the child's room was torn up but instead of making him clean it he moved to another room.

[@girlonamission1685]

@@ShoeChic5441I know right…the level of “can’t be bothered”

[@jg9039]

Whether Ethan was suicidal or homicidal, shouldn’t the parents have told the school that they bought him a gun a few days prior??? The fact that they knew about the gun and knew he had access to the weapon and failed to say anything to the school during the meeting seems like they acted negligently.

[@JaneDoe-tr5xy]

What if Ethan killed another student with a knife he took from his kitchen? I think holding parents criminally liable for what their troubled teens do at school is crazy. Most parents are not mental health experts but the school has councilors who are...blame them! Ethan slipped through the cracks at school and at home.

[@msbrooksism]

The parents FAILED their son! He begged them for help and they did nothing. Locked them up and throw away the key!

[@kimchaney1611]

There is Absolutely No Proof if that. Absolutely None. The Parents had a Very Close Relationship with there Son. This is Truly a Case of Bullying enough was enough for this Kid. Was it right No. The Parents Are Guilty of Nothing. They Better get it Right. I see a lot of Law Suit’s Coming

[@msbrooksism]

@@kimchaney1611 they are guilty

[@songbirds3712]

@@kimchaney1611 woah!! What are you even talking about? These parents most definitely did NOT have a close relationship with him. Half of the time they didn’t even know where he was. They had a problem with alcohol, and were very happy to live in their own little world with their horses.

[@jbrewer24121]

​@@kimchaney1611 That Is A Lie!

[@tammyirwin703]

I’m so glad that everyone lived with this family to know exactly what went on in their home daily 🤷🏻‍♀️

[@marcosmarin8930]

MOTHER OF THE YEAR: She texted her son "try not to be CAUGHT" when a teacher noticed he was searching for guns in his cellphone !! AMAZING WOMAN 😂😂😅

[@nicolelitwicki6600]

He wasn’t even searching for guns you numbskull

[@jbrewer24121]

the counselor, who explained that he asked the parents to take their son. But when they said it wasn't an option, he said, he gave them 48 hours to get the boy into therapy, and then he would call CPS.

[@Lisa_leelee]

I get you in this but dang.. the laughing emojis?

[@darkhorse7460]

I think you're taking things out of context and again, sole blame lies with the person that did the shooting.

[@PollyAlice2000]

@@Lisa_leelee I think those are "ironic" emojis.

[@mistyedwards8940]

My daughter had a mental breakdown at school the school called I went and picked my child up and she was 15 at the time I took her straight to the ER FOR HELP. The school district said she could stay at school I took her out I knew she needed help at that point

[@carolecoote1926]

You acted like a true and caring parent. You discover her trauma and sought help for her. From my ‘reading’ of this case this boy was an irritant to his parents. He did terrible things but how lonely, and isolated he was with no friends and parents who seem to place more value on horses than on his welfare.

[@tishhobbs6998]

That is parenting. I'm sure your family is healthier because that was your initial response. Wish daughter peace and wellness.

[@StephenSmith-fz8fb]

That says nothing.Every situation is different every person different.Your not looking at this from a legal view.

[@marcosmarin8930]

PARENTS OF THE YEAR: They fled the town, withdrew money and were hiding in a place near the Canadian border, leaving their son ALONE in JAIL !! Give them a hug and a GOLD MEDAL 😅😅😅

[@micheler1077]

Don’t forget they hired private attorneys for themselves vs public defender for Ethan.

[@SusanH578]

Do you realize how close to the Canadian border they are? Not trying to make any excuse for them because I can’t stand these parents…but they don’t live far from the Canadian border.

[@ashleymaldonado2905]

​@susanh446 from where they lived in Oxford, Michigan, I believe it would be about an hour (give or take) to the Canadian border. However, they were found in an abandoned building in Detroit, making them only around 2 miles away from the border or roughly 10 minutes driving distance. So, ya....they knew where they were going, for sure! They tried🤷‍♀️ Out of all of the messed up facts regarding this case, I think the hardest pill for me to swallow (aside from the innocent victims) is how they totally ditched their son to fend for himself & took off on him AFTER draining his account. I'll never understand how anyone could do that. Gross.

[@esmeduplessis941]

THAT speaks a thousand words.

[@tishhobbs6998]

​@@ashleymaldonado2905the building wasn't abandoned. It was a 3 stories divided up into leased studio spaces.The space they were in was leased by her affair partner. She's despicable. Another tenant happened to notice their car just after seeing a report with car description and called 911. Look up his testimony, mom trail. Not the night he was planning.

[@janetpartyka5968]

We need more televised proceedings, the public deserves the right to know.

[@Kris-mu3wm]

I think the public has the right to know and can benefit greatly by learning how our system works by observing it in action.

[@ghostdetectorsuk]

In the UK we don’t televise any 😢

[@astoriacub]

I don't know about appellate oral arguments, 99% of the time the appeals arguments concern really arcane nuance of law that most people will find tedious and over their head. To really understand what is going on you have to read the briefs before the oral arguments.

[@donnaarehartpiffier8800]

stream court TV. I got hooked on that shoe about 25 years ago

[@Bronte866]

This is for the American public. Not the British public. Don’t be a hypocrite, posturing as “the public.” No American would be drooling to see the court proceedings of child murders to get their jollies and entertain themselves. But the British do constantly because their court proceedings are SECRET. We got the hel* away from Britain because we don’t like the way you handle things just like this. Do you know why your court proceedings are SECRET from the public who pay for them? It’s entirely so that cases can be decided dishonesty in favor of Royalty and Aristocracy. The press being allowed in to “rake notes” is a very new thing. Just in the past year we saw that dishonesty in 3 cases with royalty - 2 with your charming Harry and one with his lovely wife. Congress - who is us, the people, are debating to block out our legal proceedings from outside the US. A weeks pay says you have no idea why we televise certain legal proceedings. These have nothing to do with you and are part of our Constitution. Your drool, and the other Britons here who would post a vile, ignorant comment like that is causing the world’s oceans to rise. The UK is the least politically participatory 1st world nation in the WORLD. You pretend you’re a democracy but sit there doing nothing for yourselves as you’ve been socialized for 1,000 years to let a monarch decide. Your Parliament does, almost entirely, what the BRF wants. And you play a pathetic game of pretending that that family “stays out of politics.” Also understand clearly that you are on an American platform, KZbin - not an international free space. Every second you watch ANYTHING on YT America makes more money off you..Americans see this nosy, ignorant rudeness everytime our legal proceedings are posted on YT. Learn some manners and learn some history. Your username is noted. 🇺🇸

[@kimberlydavis7322]

I find it disturbing that both the parents and school minimized the idea that ethan was suicidal... that in itself should have led to him immediately getting mental health attention. If someone told me my child was suicidal... im seeking care asap.

[@catherinenelson4162]

Ethan's drawing was full of red flags. The school, the parent's, or both should have searched his backpack. When they did neither, death at the school was a result. Both the parent's and the school failed in their responsibilities. Obviously, though, the parent's were busy nurturing everything but their young son.

[@cady__]

Yeah. The parents and school failed that day. If the concern was suicide - further assessment is warranted especially making sure they don’t have access to weapons. They all failed. Does anyone know if parents have filed civil lawsuits against the school yet? I can’t remember now

[@esthertorres4541]

I believe the school should be held responsible also he should of been sent home and his book back should of been searched

[@rhondaalbrecht]

I had that same situation, with my oldest daughter. I sought treatment for her, and when I consulted a pyschiatrist to treat her, that damned psychiatrist diagnosed me, instead, with OCD, and gave me anti-anxiety drugs for myself, on ONE visit. I should've run, but this professional came with recommendations, both via my health insurance as well as others who had been treated by him, and peer reviews. Now, I wish I hadn't used him. As a result, my daughter did NOT get treatment for her suicidal thoughts. That was 26 years ago. She's still dealing with those thoughts, but she's 43 years old now. She still holds me responsible for not getting her treatment then, even though she now has a therapist, who blames me for all of my daughter's problems, not realizing that my daughter was sexually abused by her father (which, I wasn't aware of until much later, and neither of them let me know until the last 5 years), as well as her babysitter's son, while under the care of her babysitter. Now, I don't have a relationship with my daughter. I've had to cut her off from any contact, because of her mental issues. I don't, and never wanted to, do this to her, but for my own safety and mental health, I've had to.

[@mellissamonday4051]

​@@cady__I believe they file suits against the school and certain adult individuals,as well as the school district.

[@mrnyquill3570]

Even though the father bought the gun for his child the parents still should have positive control over that weapon and secured it properly. The child asks for the gun from the parents. The kids doesnt get to keep the gun in their possession indefinitely. Then to know that he’s looking for ammo the few days before. They should be charged

[@jlorde8838]

It was locked up he searched for the key.

[@DarthAwar]

​@@jlorde8838If the Key/Password/Code etc is accessible to the People who should not have access to it than its not secured same way if it was in a bolsawood box with a padlock its not actually secure despite the appearance of a Lock

[@mackenziex3axl]

@@jlorde8838there was no key. It was a code. And that code was only 000. Also Mom bought the gun not the dad.

[@lisalisa20907]

I find these judges to be thoughtful and equally challenging to the appellants and appellee’s arguments. It gives me hope that as a society we can have reasonable discussions about these very upsetting topics.

[@astoriacub]

This is how the legal system really works. Appellate judges are always very well prepared and sharp as tacks.

[@LinTrueCrimeProject]

Yeah, when are we arresting the gangbanger"s mothers?? Yeah. Crickets on that, RIGHT??

[@LinTrueCrimeProject]

​@@astoriacubthey are as corrupt as everyone else

[@mrmtoad]

@@LinTrueCrimeProjectagain, GET HELP

[@suzymoroka297]

@@LinTrueCrimeProjectwho is the gangbanger’s mother? Jennifer’s mother? What did she do wrong

[@melodieshimon]

Shannon’s so out of her league. Unprofessional as well. She also injects herself into the case just ridiculous. The parents absolutely knew what he was going go mom said on the stand she thought he was the school shooter , and thought he was going shoot himself . She’s also lied or minimize parents actions . He was showing sights for months

[@beverlytorrado266]

Not a surprise that teachers are leaving schools in droves.

[@WendyHall-bb8cp]

I took an early retirement in 2017 for medical reasons. I honestly am so glad now.

[@ritag7306]

I’m out-was 2nd career

[@ritag7306]

I don’t know if i can stand listening to her-i’m hyperventilating already-“cheat sheet” ‘cos she can’t be responsible for following rules

[@tishhobbs6998]

Did you watch the teacher who was shot testimony? My stars. I believe what I saw was in mother's trial. I hope that mother never gets to put eyes on a horse again. They should have put the boy up for adoption when he was born. He didn't have a chance. She is guilty.

[@sylviang7916]

The school authorities shared with the parents their concerns the EC was suicidal. Then parents leave, and leave him in school. They didn’t bother to take him out of school to see a doctor immediately. They are 100% negligent and led to the death of innocent people.

[@darkhorse7460]

Um, he in fact WROTE he had no intention of killing himself.

[@cperm1]

Plus! The parents, after knowing how disturbed EC was, after seeing the math worksheet, after hearing about EC watching the video and viewing bullets, never told the counselor that they had purchased EC a gun just four days earlier. Had that one piece of knowledge that EC and his parents knew, that he had been gifted the gun, the whole situation would have been taken much more seriously. It’s quite possible that the backpack would have been searched. These so called parents put their child at the bottom of their priority list his entire life.

[@JaneDoe-tr5xy]

The school councilor who is an experienced mental health expert didn't advise the parents to take their son home until he was under the care of a shrink or they would have. Most parents are not mental health experts and teenagers don't always think rationally due to their raging hormones. I'm glad my kids are grown ... the internet exposes children to the adult world too soon when they are not able to cope.

[@Bunnyleedoo]

I’m thinking if I was pulled into a meeting and shown a picture of murder I would want access to my child immediately regardless if the conclusion of the meeting was suspicion of harm to oneself or the safety of others. Why did they neglect to get him home and immediately get him help?

[@TruCrimeQueen]

Simple …..they couldn’t be bothered with their own child.

[@stephendowling9050]

They left him alone at 8-9 years old to party. Neglected him from the start. He had to go to a neighbors for food and comfort. 😢😮

[@sarakendall9421]

A child can break a neighbor's window and the parents are held responsible

[@mackenziex3axl]

Especially when they got the child the slingshot and taught them how to aim

[@Wellness-lk3he]

Not criminally though

[@Jacqueline888]

@@Wellness-lk3heyup same to say this. civilly responsible are criminally responsible are very different

[@rhondaalbrecht]

The biggest point to knowing ahead of time, foreseeable, is the actions the parents took, immediately after the shooting. They ran and hid from LE, they got rid of assets. They abandoned their son to the justice system. That's what makes me believe that they are being prosecuted, justly. Their own actions show that they KNEW. If they didn't know, they would have been supporting their son, sticking by him, allowing themselves to be questioned by LE, but they didn't do that.

[@Justaskme781]

I totally agree with you. They showed by their actions afterwards that they had foreseability

[@jlorde8838]

​@@Justaskme781wrong

[@esmeduplessis941]

True!!!

[@GrizzlyUrsusArctos]

She has zero court decorum. “You guys” while addressing 3 judges! Told to get back behind the podium. What a nimrod. And I’m afraid she’s going to fly away with all that hand flapping.

[@Asidebar]

Ditto. She really is pitiful.

[@leeanngratton28]

😂😂😂😂😂😂 Her professors I'm sure are PISSED right now...

[@MargoHardy]

😂

[@duvessa2003]

This is beyond ridiculous. You have a mentally ill child and you buy him a gun. That is enough. Without even bringing up all of the other negligence on the part of these parents, that is enough. The sheer stupidity of buying that child a gun…

[@Queenme1978]

The kid was not diagnosed with any mental issues pursuant to psychologist and psychiatrist of Oakland county , so people may say he was asking for help but in all due respect he started acting this way after he planned to do anything and sent text messages to his friend of what he was going to be doing yet the friend never addressed it to any adults .

[@janephillips3627]

@@Queenme1978: I believe you are forgetting the school meeting with the parents the same day of shootings. You would think at least one of the parents would have brought him to ER and let them evaluate their son. That's what you do when you know it's serious. Also, the Counselor at school gave Jennifer a list of same day help by clinics, etc. All Jennifer did was laugh at her son's issue and told him to 'suck it up' in the past. VERY irresponsible actions by BOTH parents. Personally, I think the parents were depressed and out of focus of reality themselves. Her housekeeping proves that.

[@loisisaacson2040]

@@Queenme1978 SOOOOOO….. The parents are not responsible. The father could not keep a job, but he took care of and paid for the horses? This is one of the most expensive hobbies. The mother busy swinging and screwing , skiing , DID YOU NOT SEE THE VIDEOS OF THEIR HOUSE where every room was in Squaler? There was no time for their own child. He begged for help. He had no interests except guns. Is that normal? Have you raised children?????

[@user-de5bq1lw2b]

Plus in the school mtg parents NEVER said they BOUGHT him a GUN! How would the canvas look had they stated that simply

[@user-ol6mq7nv2p]

He was not diagnosed for the very reason they are in trouble not taking care of him prior. He was saying that he was seeing things and feeling not alone hearing doors shut. Hearing voices that wouldn't stop. Asking to see someone to make it stop. After that school meeting he could have been given crisis intervention and received immediate psychological care. Schools have that info.

[@stephaniecarlson6689]

I cannot get my Brain around the lack of care or insight into Ethan's desperation for help & red flags! - New South Wales Australia 😢

[@darkhorse7460]

I can. It's called "attempting to set up an insanity defense before you commit mass murder" Get it? It's pretty simple, really.

[@libertyna933]

Obviously you didn't see the psychiatrist describe the video in jail as the child having a psychotic break.

[@jpren4295]

These parents ignored their son’s issues, or wouldn’t be bothered by it. How sad for Ethan. As mother to grown sons, I do lay some blame on the parents.

[@JaneDoe-tr5xy]

I do as well but i don't hold them criminally responsible for murder!!! Financially responsible yes but not even the school councilor who is in expert in mental health saw EC as a threat to other students. Most parents are not experts in mental health!!!

[@ifellicantgetup]

If only we could allow parents to be criminally responsible for their kid's actions for about 5 years, it might just clean up a few messes in society.

[@ileanahernandez1709]

Eliminate the guns, eliminate the killings.

[@kevinlewis8642]

Guess we need to ban pressure cookers as well... according to your logic. Possibly knives...

[@marcomiranda9476]

I didn't know that pressure cookers were used to kill people.

[@libbyworkman3459]

@@kevinlewis8642. That’s a very tired argument. You also left out buckets of water because people can drown in a few inches of water if their head is held down. There are many ways to kill another human being unfortunately, but guns are made specifically to kill people. It is rifles that are usually used to kill animals.

[@Queenme1978]

And one day when your kid screws up after all you have risked and done for your kids all your life , your kids fails you and does something wrong and makes the wrong decision AND YOU END UP SITTING THERE IN JENNIFER CRUMBLEYS PLACE saying to yourself this is not fair that my kid did something wrong and I’m being charged, don’t wish these charges upon people when one day that people can be you and than you regret these words

[@Asidebar]

Shannon Smith is a disgrace to the legal profession. She is a huge embarrassment. Referring to the judges as "you Guys" is only on example of her lack of professionalism.

[@Hunee-]

And in very next sentence, after being told it’s not guys but the court, she says it again. What a doozy.

[@deeesoirscegardner]

Shannon Smith should be disbarred as a attorney. That women is absolutely 💯 💯 disgrace ..dictating and in Jennifer crumbley case laughing at the victims family's disgrace. In Ireland 🇮🇪 this women would not be a lawyer. Speaking as a civil rights human rights lawyer I am .this women is embarrassing to our proffession

[@user-de5bq1lw2b]

Omg I’ve come to this after trial! Given this hrg she should have plead out…the judges views were already set. Plus her incompetence is showing. How her firm keeps her is beyond

[@abc123youandme]

"It's the court, not you guys," proceeds to call them you guys immediately thereafter. 😂

[@ritag7306]

Blew me away!

[@LettiesLife]

Idk why I’ve felt so sorry for her this entire trial. I think she’ll be an excellent lawyer, as she matures 🤷🏼‍♀️🦋💜🦋

[@abc123youandme]

@LettiesLife I can't get over her whiny-ness. I'm not even faulting her for making objections, but I don't think I heard a single "objection!" It was always a whiny 'they're being mean to me' tone. Ugh. She's clearly more intelligent than I having passed the bar but good gawd grow the hell up already.

[@LettiesLife]

@@abc123youandme you are right. Can’t deny it but man is she getting pounded for being “young” 🙈 and Jennifer wasn’t an easy mom to defend! 🤷🏼‍♀️. 🫶🏼

[@abc123youandme]

@LettiesLife I don't disagree with Jennifer being hard to represent but I'm not as gracious in chalking it up to youth, I guess.

[@Booboofuzzbucket]

The fact that this idea of parents not having a legal duty for the behavior of their children and the reason it’s even being debated here is unfortunately due to the fact that all sense of moral duty and moral obligation on the part of ALL parents toward the raising and training of their children has been erased from our society for the most part. If parents understand their moral obligation toward their children in every factor of their childrens lives and upbringing, the whole legal duty aspect of raising their children is already being handled. It’s part and parcel of parents having and accepting the moral responsibility of raising and instilling values like religious, family and societal values, into the minds and lives of their children. IMO only, EC was a neglected child and teenager and seemed to hold very little value to the adults within his family. It’s time that the responsibilities of parents toward children is looked at and overhauled in our society. Children are not just something you have that is expected for you to do or that makes you feel good, feel important, or feel accomplished and successful within your various circles of influence like work, friendships, church, family gatherings, etc. If you CHOOSE to have children, you are CHOOSING to take on the BURDEN of training them, teaching them, instilling moral and social values in them, leading by example for them, teaching them right from wrong, listening to their thoughts, fears, dreams, ideas, wants, and needs, providing all manner of things needed for them to grow up to become successful and positively productive members of society for the good of everyone else. Parenting is no joke nor something that should be treated as a right for everyone that just comes with breathing. Parenting should be looked at as the tremendous and awesome responsibility that it really is and should be taken much more seriously than many adults have been taking it in the past.

[@Justaskme781]

Young people have children entirely too early and I mean young people in general. I had my children very young and that are so many things that I would do differently now if I had allowed myself to grow up first. Thank God they did not grow up to be criminals. As they got to be teenagers I was better at being a mother . What is I had been a little older when I had them with a little more knowledge on how to raise them how much farther could they have gone in life. I am terribly ashamed of some of the things I said and did when I was so young. That's not that I was a terrible person or a terrible mother. I loved my children and I did the best I could with them I am just now seeing that I could have done so much better if I hadn't left school to marry and to have children so young. In this case age had nothing to do with it. These were just self-centered parents who never should have had a child at all

[@fnhc2023]

Ahhhh…..surely parents “should” be perfect. If only…

[@bandekhuda9021]

Oh my God, it is like 2 airheads. Airheads being the 2 defense lawyers. Presenting an argument to 3 wise men. Smh

[@tinab3627]

So many opportunities that both the parents and the school had to prevent this tragedy from ever happening. It’s sickening. These poor victims & their families didn’t have to go through this

[@cm1642]

The 2nd lawyer has irritated me from the beginning. Now she's going to Um the judges to death.

[@puddingtame3483]

Too many ditzy females in the legal profession, that are terrible orators..

[@loisisaacson2040]

Wonderful response…….’YOU GUYS’ to the Judges

[@shelleynorman6741]

I like how well rounded the Judges questions are.

[@TM2U-1]

The defense attorney should not refer to the judges as “you guys”, but rather your Honor’s.

[@libbyworkman3459]

Watching this video has made me a huge fan of appellate court judges. They have a better grasp of the entire situation than the practicing lawyers do.

[@susiepummill9391]

is the school also going to be held responsible since they permitted him to return to the classroom?

[@PatriciaDavison-Stark]

Hopefully

[@barbyrice3130]

No judge dismissed the school/personnel of liability.

[@darkhorse7460]

The Judge nailed this today-stating we're not here to focus on the shortcomings of others but actions and behavior the perpetrator. I couldn't agree more.

[@mimimummi1187]

The school did not avail the shooter with a gun!! Nor store the key to the lock in a decorative, easily accessible beer stein!

[@ShoeChic5441]

My mouth fell open when the judge said, "Are you saying we can't make precedent?" Lawyer lady just because nobody has been charged before doesn't mean there can't be a first.

[@Jacqueline888]

and there was!

[@scottie2hot]

Kids shouldn’t have guns without direct parent supervision. To me, this is common sense.

[@jlorde8838]

They didn't let him have it alone.

[@NatalieBryden]

Kids, nor adults, should have guns. What is wrong with Americans?

[@DarthAwar]

​@@jlorde8838Then how did he have it at school 🚸

[@jbrewer24121]

@@jlorde8838 Well It Seems They Were Irresponsible Gun Owners Who Obviously Did Not Secure The Weapon That They Told Their Son Was His Gun! That Boy Was Not Into Hunting, Obviously It Was Not For Personal Protection. Young People Died Because They Bought A Gun For Their Son Who They Knew Was Unstable.

[@jlorde8838]

@@jbrewer24121 lmao highly doubtful

[@Lurthatgurl]

I wish I had watched this sooner. I wish all appeals hearings were televised this was amazing.

[@duvessa2003]

The parents went running and hiding because they knew they were culpable. When the mom is sending text messages “Don’t do it…”She effing well knew what was at risk she and her husband purchased a gun for that troubled child. Did the parents emphasize to the school that they had purchased a gun for him? Did the school have any knowledge of that gun? If they did they probably would’ve made the association of the backpack being heavy and the gun being in it.

[@noonlight-kv5ks]

Having just watched the trial of Jennifer Cromeley being represented by Shannon Smith, I am seriously concerned she is a licensed practitioner of law with her consistent inability to follow respect and decorum for the judge, the court and the law. She is shocking.

[@Asidebar]

She is without question a horrible attorney.

[@johnqpublic5350]

Ask Larry Nassar, I bet he disagrees.

[@meganbaldwin1699]

Shocking is an understatement statement! She is atrocious! Why didn’t they bring in more evidence into Jennifer’s trial! The totality of evidence is overwhelming that she is 100000% responsible!!!!! The comments from people regarding this trail is absolutely mind blowing. 🤯

[@oliviaguercioni8412]

I agree with you on that statement. Shannon is a disgrace to the courts and her profession. She made a comment during the Nassar trial, that she didn’t believe a majority of those young ladies that came forward to testify and tell their story as to what happened to them! I have disrespected her since then and still do in this Crumbley trial! SHM🤬

[@stephaniecarlson6689]

I cannot get over the lack of care & insight into Ethan's plight for help😢 New South Wales Australia

[@user-cy4vw1qj9m]

Agree 😢 Ireland.

[@mobster6665]

Shannon should not have called these Honourable Judges "you guys". What is going on in her head?

[@bsmith5388]

Weak attorneys

[@inquiringmind2852]

Not only once but did so again immediately after being corrected. She wasn't even listening.

[@bsmith5388]

@@inquiringmind2852 Exactly

[@tarynmacdonald1387]

Nerves, probably.

[@Beswift1989]

You guys calm down

[@ji1072]

These judges are tough. So they should be. I’m watching Jennifer Crumble’s trial now and Shannon is something. Never seen a trial attorney like her.

[@meganbaldwin1699]

Mind blowing! 🤯 How does she still have a license?

[@Hunee-]

She’s a whole mess.

[@KES47Brown]

Have y’all seen her website? The main cases she takes on is to get pedos and rapists off. She has a whole section dedicated to the cases she’s won

[@meganbaldwin1699]

@@Hunee- as big as the entire outside. Sonya, girl!!!! 🤦🏼‍♀️

[@stephaniecarlson6689]

The School and Ethan's Parent's definitely missed significant signs!

[@janedixon8491]

I think the key here is that the parents neglected this child and had no idea he was doing all the things he was doing like killing and torturing animals etc . They never checked his phone, never checked his room, never checked his backpack, never saw his writings etc

[@2and26]

Yep...they "checked out" from being parents to him; they appeared not to be invested in his mental well-being.

[@amy-joe5772]

A legal duty to protect the children of the school upon the actions of their child

[@carrianneselah4472]

So if the child was in school how can we not charge.the school too

[@jbrewer24121]

@@carrianneselah4472 The School Did Not Know The Boy Had A Gun Bought For Him By The Parents! The School Notified The Parents That The Boy Was Drawing Weird Stuff and Asking For Help. They Notified The Parents Their Son Was Researching bullets, They Told The School They Were Not Worried And That They Take Their Son To A Gun Range. They Eventually Told The Parents to Take The Boy Home and Get Him Psychiatric Help. The Parents Refused, Counselor Then Told Them If They Do Not Get The Boy Psychiatric Help They Will CPS.

[@TherealLumpendoodle]

@@carrianneselah4472And if he was in a cafe, do you charge the cafe. Why do people keep wanting to shift parental responsibility onto schools. I had a mother complain to me that it was the duty of the school to teach a child how to behave, and even toilet train them. The parent is responsible, and I just find it weird that these two people just fobbed off their responsibilities onto the svhool.

[@enid0mom]

I just can’t watch the defense attorney argue they had no “legal duty” to protect other people from the actions of their child. I think the judges are saying that without saying it n so many words in their questions.

[@davidrenton]

it's not as simple as that, if your child is normal, with no warning signs, but then pushes another child on purpose of a say a high wall, killing the other child, are the 1st child's parents liable. Of course, this case is different, as it would be if the child said, I'm gonna push the 1st child I see off a 20ft wall, i intend to kill them and the parents did nothing. So it's not defacto ,a parent is liable for the actions of their child towards others if the actions are not foreseeable and preventable This obviously was foreseeable and preventable and they enabled him by buying him a gun. Sometimes however children kill , and hurt other children. Think of this, your kid gets into a fight in school, and you as the parent automatically are legally responsible for the assault, and child abuse of the other child. So it needs to be very selective and a very high bar or basically as a parent you wouldn't allow your children near any other child in fear you might get arrested for what they might do. Now there is a case for parents of bullies, who are fully aware of their kid's actions and take no measures to address that, should they face assault and child abuse charges as well. Now that could be mitigated by the parents being made aware but they took the appropriate recommended measures, i.e counseling etc, but if the kids still bullied other kids, the parents have done what was recommended are legally no longer liable. sry for the long post

[@Magmamom333]

If this is true, there would be a lot of parents in jail already. Parents that consider themselves helpless to control their child.

[@deborahkline1715]

This will end up before the Supreme Court, this opens the door for parents being responsible for their children’s crimes.

[@holliver_bpd796]

If a parent at any time denies mental health help to their child, the should be liable for any and all crimes committed. Period.

[@irenestrmnss4496]

Good !!!!!!!

[@puddingtame3483]

​@@holliver_bpd796and who exactly is the arbiter of what constitutes a child's need for mental health? Is every moody teenager legally required to be put on a cocktail of antidepressants? We can't hold parents responsible for everything their kids do. You're obviously not educated in the law.

[@glitter7777]

@@puddingtame3483amen! If that’s the case then what about peers, teachers and others that influence children. Ultimately people are responsible for their own actions.

[@JustEmmy2]

Any parent who refuses mental health care should be held responsible. They knew about his issues, they were called to the school that morning and refused to take him home, the mother told the father about hallucinations, they bought the fire arm knowing this. It would have been very different had they not known.

[@peanut924]

The first thing those parents did was sell their horses and went on the run!

[@SusanH578]

They didn’t sell their horses! They were still trying to sell their home & horses long after they were in jail!

[@esthertorres4541]

The parents are very reckless and take no accountability for anything they are horrible parents

[@irenestrmnss4496]

Wondered what the parents would feel and say if he used that gun his father bought to kill himself. Would they just say " good ridance" ? "Now we can just live our own selfish life cause our troubled son is gone " ?????????

[@goatgirl5968]

Honestly, based on other testimony, it does seem like it. They could devote all their time to affairs and horses and work and not be bothered by him anymore.

[@loisthompson2303]

That was my first thought. Was that the motive for those negligent parents who set him up?

[@gfx2943]

These lawyers are failing to point out the manipulation and secrecy that this kid put against the parents. He even admitted to it in his video. That would be the only thing in their corner. They are also failing to point out that the school sent him back to class and didn't check a bag either - so why aren't they charged for welfare liability too?

[@susiepummill9391]

I think that I read someplace that the school wasn’t going to be held liable because they’re considered a government entity and therefore have protection

[@rburns9248]

I believe the parents and the school missed a chance in helping EC. Therefore, they are both liable in my eyes.

[@lilpinksliplee7310]

​@@susiepummill9391You are correct. No one at the school will be charged because they work for the public school system they end up with immunity from prosecution.

[@amy-joe5772]

The defense has no argument

[@darkhorse7460]

They tried; let's see... insanity defense..oops unsuccessful. Blame everyone else? Hmm didn't pan out either. I guess that's what happens when you're a court appointed attorney, though.

[@jaykay1053]

@@darkhorse7460 I’ve seen many who seem excellent. They’re likely way over-worked, in a very difficult job, I’d guess.

[@jay-gv1rh]

Regarding 8 months prior when EC told them he was having hallucinations and they didn't get him help. That's basic child abuse. If your child told you about a physical ailment which resulted in harm to the child you would be held liable for not doing anything at the time.

[@bluegreybaby]

I don't know why you expected them to get EC professional help, they gave a kid a gun. That right away tells you the parental dynamic in that household. These people gave their troubled kid a gun, told him not to get caught, and when he gets in trouble they run and hide in a building downtown for days. They shot those in the school that day as much as their son did.

[@jay-gv1rh]

@@bluegreybaby I think they should be charged with child abuse. I can see the jury letting them off on manslaughter because does being a bad parent really equal manslaughter. I wish that can also carry heavy penalties to give the jury an additional option in case they can't agree on manslaughter.

[@marcosmarin8930]

FATHER OF THE YEAR: He filled the forms to BUY A GUN and then gave it to HIS SON as a Christmas Gift !! WHAT A NICE MAN !! 😂😂😂

[@darkhorse7460]

God, are you stuck on stupid? The blame is solely on the perpetrator. It's idiotic to keep commenting "parent of the year" your satire sucks, it's not funny and the parents have been blamed ad nauseum, so we all get it.

[@marcomiranda9476]

That seems to be a giant loophole in the system: an adult getting a gun legally and simply giving the gun to their child, who clearly cannot possess the gun legally. There should be charges for that alone.

[@Queenme1978]

And he also previously owned 2 guns and had them in his home and the possession of the kid and the kid never did anything so what triggered him now ?

[@maryammosavi269]

Shannon smith being improper again….it’s her character. So unprofessional and disrespectful.

[@miketaylor7305]

Hi Mary IKR…

[@catherinenelson4162]

The female attorney is stating that there is no other case: Well, lady, there's always a first time!

[@sunny1433]

The defense lawyers are not equipped to effectively defend their clients. This case against the parents will make law history, the fact that not one of the skilled, successful & well known defense’s attorneys volunteered to take this case on pro bono, tells me that the Parents will be in jail for years. Undoubtedly they are terrible parents, I’m torn on the charges though, not sure what should happen here.

[@June-tb4vi]

Your putting a women who went too law school...passed the bar..is a well respected lawyer down..and you? Have you come even close?

[@scottie2hot]

They bought the gun. They did not ensure he could not gain access to the gun.

[@jlorde8838]

It was in a locked box he found the key.

[@SusanH578]

@@jlorde8838that’s misinformation, it was in a drawer & not locked up.

[@jlorde8838]

​@@SusanH578no it isn't a cop testified, that Marxist Karen even admitted it.

[@botanisex]

Bartenders can be held liable for a drunk driver but parents who buy a very troubled minor child a gun who ends up using the gun shouldn’t be held liable? Amazing that this isn’t a cut and dry case. If it were it might cause people to think hard about having children. So many people giving birth who have no business doing so.

[@Asidebar]

Good point

[@meganbaldwin1699]

It’s cut and dry in my eyes! You suspect your husband/wife is cheating you turn into an FBI agent! Your child chops off baby birds heads and puts them in jar, sees demons, begs for help, draws violent pictures, failing in school, has no friends, looks like a homeless person and you don’t try to figure out what the hell is going on??? No, they buy him a 9mm?? I mean what is so difficult to understand!!? And the comments about invading my kids privacy…..?? Seriously!? Nothing in my house is private to my kids! I bought that phone! I bought that backpack! If I suspect something I will investigate!

[@lilpinksliplee7310]

If they end up being successful with these charges then they better start charging everyone of these parents whose kids are out here shooting up the the streets in Detroit too and killing people.

[@8jerasikapark8]

Those parents are horrible

[@jc41831]

They did want to be parents they wanted to be buddies. Did not want any mental health in their family. Parents are not buddies they have a job, want a buddy have one.

[@powellmom48]

Then the parents take him home and spend time with him and talk to him so he’s not alone and you work through things.

[@lilman0820]

This whole case makes me sick Why did the parents not listen to there child and get him help for god sakes he was a child

[@nikkimaloney2759]

He wasn't suicidal at all. He clearly shared that he wanted to live! A minor thought to be suicidal should be removed from school and evaluated.

[@loisisaacson2040]

Thank You JUDGES

[@duvessa2003]

The mother was more worried about lining up her next horseback riding lesson and she was about dealing with her child’s significant mental health crisis.

[@mrmtoad]

And the brunette sounds like a cast member of real housewives of New Jersey.

[@sleuththewild]

The parents got EC NO healthcare, not just mental healthcare. They didn't even put him on their healthcare insurance plan at work, which included coverage for mental health care. All the while, they got extensive health care for their horses, and tended to them daily.

[@Therapistmind]

This lawyer for defense lost! announced today court of appeals are making them stand trial March 23

[@peanut924]

Yayyyyyyy!!!! Great decision 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻 Those parents grossly neglected their child. They gave all their attention to their horses and drinking!

[@PollyAlice2000]

I’m glad these judges are getting to the bottom of things while the lawyer for the Crumleys works to deflect. I feel the Crumleys are just as responsible for the deaths. They failed to care for their son, or get care, or do anything that a normal sound parent would do to keep their son and those around him, from being harmed. They purchased a gun for a clearly troubled boy. They knew that he was very troubled on that day, and they had total disregard for his life, and the lives of others. They need to be found guilty.

[@CurseTheDarkness]

Why stop at 16? Is there something magic about a child turning 18 that the parents are all of a sudden no longer responsible for their kids actions that the day before the kid turns 18 they are? An awful lot of parents will be going to jail down this slippery slope.

[@PollyAlice2000]

Curse the Darkness, I have 2 thoughts about that. The first is the majority of Americans believe that parents are responsible for the care and safety of their children.,In this case, the child was 15 years old, and still nice he did not meet our legal definition of the age of an adult, he would be unable to contract for the mental healthcare he needed, even if he wanted to, and had the money himself to pay for it. This is no different than handing your car keys over to your drunk teenager. And yes, parents should be, and often are, prosecuted for negligent behavior that made it possible for the loss of life. This “mom” is criminally responsible for loss of life.

[@CurseTheDarkness]

@@PollyAlice2000 In my state you only have to be 14 to consent to medical care, including mental health. He was also charged as an adult, so that would suggest he was not purely a minor. That’s a good example about the car keys, however the prosecution was unable to cite a precedent or specifically what neglectful actions the parents directly took. There’s no question they’re awful parents, but there’s a whole lot of parents that will be going to jail for crimes they didn’t commit if we start adopting this standard.

[@PollyAlice2000]

@@CurseTheDarkness I hear what you're saying, but honestly, although a 14 year old may be allowed to ACCEPT mental health care, I do not believe that this 15 year old had the money to pay for it. If he did not have parents, who are legally responsible for his healthcare in every state that I know about, probably part of a public welfare program would pay for this, but he did and does have parents. . I don't think that we will find many mothers who are THIS negligent, but if we do, I'm just fine with them being charged and convicted when there were deaths because of it. If either of these parents had provided care when it was needed, they would not be charged. Do you honestly think that there are many moms or dads anywhere who would not swing into action on behalf of their child when they were told by staff at his school that he had "suicidal ideation"? I just cannot get my head around their failure to act, and I think that the charges are the right ones against Jennifer Crumley.

[@alliehunter9896]

Shannon behaves herself in front of this court.." you guys"? Really? Shannon, defense for Jennifer is a loose cannon/train wreck.

[@heather4155]

It's a fine hobby!!Omg ,even the judges don't understand that the real problem,in their country,is GUNS😔

[@patgreen5889]

What about social services being call when he was 8 years old!! So this is not a new problem

[@patgreen5889]

His best friend was sent away to get away from EC

[@katiecannon8186]

That’s what I’ve heard. Do you happen to know how I can verify this? Thanks.

[@ShoeChic5441]

These attorneys must think that if they keep saying the same thing a judge is going to say, "Okay I get it now". They saw the warning signs, put a gun in this child's hand and ran.

[@irenestrmnss4496]

BUYING A GUN TO MINOR, 15 YEAR OLD SON WITH MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES ???????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WHO DOES THAT ????????? A MINOR ANYWHERE SHOULD NOT HAVE A DANGEROUS WEAPON. PERIOD. GUN LAWS IN USA IS CRAZY. HERE IS THE RESULT OF LOVE FOR GUNS IN AMERICA

[@puddingtame3483]

Shut up with your ranting, all caps drivel. Kids in the US can hunt at the age of 12, which is how old I was when I shot my first deer, just like millions of other young men in this country who were raised properly, and taught the difference between right and wrong.

[@cocosurgerow]

Put all 3 in prison , maximum penalties

[@rec.thecritic]

Why imagine if this was u, so let's blame u for what ur brother did because his ur brother and u know him best, u forgot to look under his mattress. That's ridiculous

[@cocosurgerow]

@@rec.thecritic Get your facts straight. Who bought him the gun? Who was to keep the gun secured and locked ? Who was taking him to target practice? Who knew he had mental problems?

[@June-tb4vi]

Think before you condemn others....which you feel you can do because your perfect

[@Asidebar]

@@rec.thecritic Its not about a brother. Its about parents of a minor who was allowed to have a gun.

[@Queenme1978]

These charges are complete BS and these prosecutors are trying to make a new law , parents have to pay for the wrong choices of the kid , it’s like a kid being at a party and taking a drug and overdosing in that party can the friend the kid is with be charged for involuntarily manslaughter

[@catherinerheaume8522]

Bad attorneys. Addressing the court as you guys? Shaky arguments.

[@cori3072]

Interesting that they charged the perpetrator as an adult, yet blame the parents for not caring enough for their child. Is he a child? Or an adult?

[@libbyworkman3459]

I have gotten impression from watching videos that neither the mother nor the father was involved very much with the child.

[@ritag7306]

I cannot get over her referring to judges as “you guys”-and then, after gently being told not to use that term, she does it again??!!! How in anyone’s name is she allowed to pretend to practice law????

[@coldisle]

Nobody is remotely saying this…but Jennifer Crumbley (now that the world has watched her and her case about to be in the hands of the jury…seems SO self-absorbed, selfish, and hedonistic…that I can’t stop wondering..with regards to getting this clearly disturbed kid a gun…if a part of her thought that maybe he would commit suicide and no longer be in the way of her having as much fun and freedom as possible. It’s a deeply disturbing thought and yet she is So awful and seemingly unrepentant that I can’t help but wonder.

[@Numb217]

You are not alone in that thinking.

[@clandestineworm]

The parents guilt lies in the fact that they are the only ones who knew Ethan had access to a weapon. Ethan wasn't drawing knives, he was drawing guns and bulkets. And keep in mind, he had access to knives based on the photos of his bedroom.

[@melaniemeadows102]

Why wasn’t this child 5150 at the time.

[@caterinawilliams998]

Teenagers wants to be left alone, rhey say it all the time, to do their things, fair enough. It's part of the growing process. However, this must never be taken literally, parents must be available, physically and emotionally and provide pastoral care, guidance, advice, without obviously been overbearing. It is very very hard to get this balance right, because parenting is super hard. Woth this been said, I see here a complete absence of any care and no parenting.

[@karenabrams8986]

There are going to have to be more options for schools to force kids into mental health care facilities when they show signs of being a danger to themselves or others. Parents can’t be objective about their own kids. These reckless idiots refused to see the problems. Would’ve hurt the mom’s image and pride to get her son help. And yes. There needs to be increased liability for parents in our gun culture. Yes. They are on your watch. This was incredible to see all of these lawyers in action .

[@catherinerheaume8522]

She argued against herself. The parents knew he had suicidal ideation and hallucinations and a gun. Just like the kid with a lighter and candles.

[@BurntRaisinToast]

“The kid had a history of lighters and candles.” Listening to these people bastardize the English language is more than I can bear. Four years of university undergrad, followed by four years of law school, followed by an articling gig, and they still can’t form a complete sentence in front of an Appeals Court. The American education system is an utter disaster.

[@puddingtame3483]

To be fair, not all Americans are ignorant dolts, however our academic standards, in public schools, are abysmal.

[@lindasue263]

Both defense attys logic was so inappropriate. 🤦🏼

[@TeaSpiracy]

"Can you stay behind the podeum please?" 😂

[@mydongpandong9644]

To the defendants’ lawyers, Molly, you’re in danger girl!

[@irenestrmnss4496]

IS THIS A THREATH ???? YOUR COMMENT ????!!!!!

[@carrianneselah4472]

Yea threats.arent ok

[@juniordixie9489]

It’s a movie quote.

[@catherinevaccaro8356]

And suicidal ideation that counselor should have responded respectfully

[@rec.thecritic]

I don't think his parents should be charged at all because they didn't know how would they know

[@meganbaldwin1699]

If your husband or wife is cheating you or you suspected would you go through the cell phone and emails? If your son (CHILD) has a dead baby bird in a jar in his bedroom that he killed with a screw driver and cut off the head, seeing demons, drawings of violence, failing in school, no friends, cry’s for help many times …. You would ignore him? Thats nonsense!

[@DeeRodriguez_BallerinaFaLife]

They can’t say Ethan’s name because he’s a minor, yet they charged him as an adult. Make up your mind.

[@cheraz713]

Thank you for making this available.

[@catherinerheaume8522]

So the parents claim no responsibility because their clearly disturbed child had an intention? That he clearly expressed to them and the school in advance?

[@childtimematters513]

Access to rifles needs to be restricted by parents of under age kids. Kids should not get off the bus or walk home and have access to guns. Recently, a brother shot and killed his sister. Why? Because he had access to the gun. Lock up guns from kids under 18. Three locks. No access to codes or keys.

[@esthertorres4541]

I love Judge Murray the best he’s not letting anything get by their lawyers don’t have a leg 🦵 to stand on

[@user-de5bq1lw2b]

The school had NO KNOWLEDGE that parents bought him a gun! All the parents had to do was tell the school!

[@r8chlletters]

This is probably the most interesting video on this case to date. People should understand better how a court arrives as their decision making and this is a window into aspects of law we don’t often see. Someday people will watch this and be amazed anyone would not only allow but want and encourage their child to shoot a weapon that could kill someone. For many enlightened societies today this is mind boggling and horrifying.