Game of Thrones Finale: Is It Deep or Dumb? - Wisecrack Edition

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Now that Game of Thrones is over, it's time to ask: is this milestone in television deep or dumb?
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Written by: Claire Pickard
Directed by: Michael Luxemburg
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Edited by: Andrew Nishimura
Produced by: Emily Dunbar
© 2019 Wisecrack, Inc.

[@issavirgo4838]

The fact that HBO was prepared to pay for 12 seasons pisses me off more.

[@mikehoot3978]

You want more time with D&D as writers!!??? Rushed or slowly is the same if you don't know how to write.

[@seen921]

That’s what is bothersome most of all. They could have built a monster ending but instead it whimpered

[@patricksylvia9042]

I love how all of you claim HBO would have paid for more seasons when you're all restating someone said on Reddit as though it's a fact. Your ignorance is comical, but also sad.

[@issavirgo4838]

Pat Sylvia No stupid Thats what GRRM said in his interview that is on youtube

[@patricksylvia9042]

@@issavirgo4838 Dude, fuck you first of all. Secondly, GRRM said he wanted more seasons. HBO didn't say they wanted more.

[@jojojojoost3507]

They say every time a book is adapted the gods flip a coin... and the world holds its breath

[@vaibhavjain5227]

Lemme award you gold

[@couchpotatoe91]

The gods are cheaters then, seeing films these days it's pretty obvious the coin has two same sides xD

[@mcpics4448]

jojojojoost LoL yeah

[@lukelim5094]

Wait when had it worked when the films or TV ran out of source materials from the book. Is there any? I don't think so.

[@IshtarNike]

That voice over proved they failed as story tellers. You should not need to remind us that madness runs in the family through a cheap voice over rehash of previous episodes. Pathetic.

[@zardox78]

"Deep or dumb?" It's both. It's deep dumb. It's plumbing the deepest depths of dumbness. There. Any more questions?

[@grass7864]

No, sir.

[@youtubeonly7271]

This is the most accurate answer

[@lucass430]

The writers "kinda forgot" a lot of things on season 8. Such a disappointing ending to one of the best tv shows ever.

[@maxzaslove6897]

The best

[@gottalight3574]

@@maxzaslove6897 Didn't you see season 8? kinda hard now to call it the best ever.

[@normiehunter9864]

@@gottalight3574 That's why he said it was *"disappointing"*

[@MacionGrey]

Meanwhile Deadwood finally got it's finale and it was great.

[@MrChainrule]

@Ex- Men The Wire

[@abadyr_]

Game of Thrones Finale: Is It Deep or Dumb? ... Does anyone really wonder?

[@oghaze9318]

It's dumb because it failed to be deep, good ideas but shit execution

[@sorensorensen9567]

Ikr it isn’t even worth analyzing. It was dumb as fuck and ridiculously rushed and badly written

[@chadsknnr]

It started deep, with all the implications, and gradually got dumb with each season . . . .

[@oghaze9318]

Radiyas 13 The sad thing is some of the fan theories really had me expecting a Lovecraftian kind of plot twist ending, HBO should have had Redditors and youtubers be a part of the writing...

[@danielagros1]

You know it's bad when you look back at Wisecracks video predicting who would sit on the throne... a lot better endings in the comments than what actually happened to the show.

[@consoleking9670]

Nice to see a calm explanation of the show’s flaws, as opposed to blind rage

[@eltonnascimento870]

Take a look at this kzbin.info/www/bejne/f2m4Z56gprGegLM

[@Revan-eb1wb]

of course there has to be that guy...

[@YoutubeOverTV]

You forget when he told Sansa he "could never be lord of anything" 🙃 Also, he knows everything that ever happened. Wouldn't that make him a great librarian in the Citadel? How can a king who lives thousands of years be a good thing?

[@Condor2481]

Bran isn't going to live for thousands of years, the Three Eyes Raven straight up told him so

[@vebdaklu]

Why wouldn't an all-knowing all-seeing being free from pety desires be a good king? Aside from the lack of desires driving him to hunt Dragons rather than manage a Kingdom, of course. 🙃

[@lapolicedelapensee7047]

Fans : We want a good ending. D&D : Let's subvert their expectations....

[@flamesofchaos13]

Fallout Fans : We want another great Fallout. Bethesda : Fallout 76. and/or Star Wars Fans : Please don't fuck up Star Wars. Disney : Star Wars The Last Jedi.

[@lapolicedelapensee7047]

@@flamesofchaos13 Fully agree with you ;)

[@flamesofchaos13]

@@lapolicedelapensee7047 We apparently live in an age where media companies and the writers of said companies..Just don't give a single amount of shit.

[@lapolicedelapensee7047]

@@flamesofchaos13 - I think that they are over-estimated and in fact, it's just a whole generation of incompetent writers who are too used to compensating for their lack of genius, by exploiting the rise of special effects and 3D.

[@MOMO-ux4hh]

subverting expectations is not a bad thing, a game of thrones is all about that where good people/bad people die, where's the "grey people" who are not bad or good keep on living.

[@ohkaymo]

When Wisecrack spends more time thinking about the ending of GOT than Dave & Dan...

[@TheSolitaryEye]

What might be even more sad is if D&D thought their asses off and this is the best they could come up with.

[@andrewfrank7222]

Dumb and Dumber

[@MilleniumActress]

Thank god Drogon got out of it alive....

[@ekaterinaponizovskayadevin2812]

Yes! In the end, I only worried about the dragon. Hope evil Bran will not find him! Dragon should have the status of protected species after all! :)

[@somethinglikethat2176]

Thank god I got out before it went to shit. - everyone who died before season 5

[@patrickgogan3517]

@Valkyrie and Arya she should have died about 4 times in episode 5

[@riparianlife97701]

Euron to camera: I'm the man who killed Jamie Lannister! Deadpool: There's a time and a place, dude.

[@chrisbolland5634]

*to jamie He's basically telling jamie that he killed him. He died believing that his wound that he gave to jamie would kill him. Why are people so weirded out by it?

[@riparianlife97701]

@@chrisbolland5634 It's the only time in the show's 10 years someone looked directly into the camera.

[@chrisbolland5634]

@@riparianlife97701 Not really, Missandei did right before her execution. It doesn't really matter though. Are you going to let one movement of a character's eyes ruin your likely favorite TV show? Be grateful for what we were given, not bitter over what we were denied

[@riparianlife97701]

@@chrisbolland5634 No, Missandei did not look directly at the camera. Euron did, and it came across as campy. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pJLQkKppi5uqms0

[@riparianlife97701]

@@chrisbolland5634 Watch it again. kzbin.info/www/bejne/pJLQkKppi5uqms0

[@parastooabr1524]

Thanks for shitting on D&D. It felt really good.

[@TvTrollByIvy]

Also, no one is going to approach the unintended consequences? Bran might not be replaced for thousands of years, because he is the Three Eyed Raven. The North Independence opens up the gates for Dorne and The Iron Islands to persue independence aswell, by force if necessary. Bron as Master of Coin is just irresponsable, he has no bussiness acummen. How long until the council has a split over something? What about the food? Dany burnt a lot of it in the 7th season and it is still winter (at least it was supposed to), how do feed a continent with no food? So much could go incredible wrong, but fuck us the fans, we need to wrap this thing now, so we can go work on Star Wars.

[@clintholmes2061]

I thought the ending was terrible. To try and make it better for myself I've added some of my own context and story in the background to try and make it better and more complete for myself. I like to think that bran... er, the 3 eyed raven, is legit awful. They are the architect for all the terrible shit going on just so that they could be king.

[@chriscueva1866]

Game of thrones is dumb A Song of Ice and Fire is deep

[@sounavailable]

this has to be the most one sided question of the year...

[@kaleb749]

It’s been a year and I’m still mad. None of us will forget the monumental failure

[@osakaskuam]

Almost two years now... The North remembers.

[@Dularr]

Everyone forgets, the Iron Bank always collects.

[@thedudewhomadethisvideo]

yeah they kinda forget about them

[@menrodbaquiran2467]

Its basically because of the witting. good realistic characters can become bad and crap because of bad writing.

[@pogotheclown6088]

I hate witting.

[@Raylen_Fa-ield]

I say game of thrones lost its luster when they passed the books and Martin only helped with foot notes

[@lauravalle2894]

Confusing and unsatisfying. Yep, that pretty much sums it up! 🙀

[@Brandonhayhew]

If Jon snow was just Bastard son of Ned Stark then the storyline would still be the same thing? It wouldn't make much difference.

[@QuestionQuestionMark]

Parentage didn’t mean shit.

[@bloodyneptune]

Lol if course it made a difference? If Jon didnt find out shes his aunt and then not have sex with her, she wouldn't have got sad and then commit genocide. (Thats sarcasm, btw)

[@Brandonhayhew]

@@bloodyneptune Jon still does have sex with her and she has problems with the north struggles with independence war.

[@missmerbella]

Sarah Sutherland right? We needed the good old hell hath no fury like a woman scorned plotline... In trying to “subvert expectations,” D&D ended up doing one of the biggest (and most sexist) tropes of all time. 🤦🏻‍♀️

[@Brandonhayhew]

@@missmerbella sexism was a normal in medieval times and there were three social estates dictated by birth or parentage.

[@jaeldi]

While the last season was rushed, I think the story was true to the vision of the author. The author is telling the cliche story that power corrupts. What makes this story unusual is how the author demonstrates how power also seduces. He does this by seducing the reader or viewer the same way the characters get seduced. According to the author, power comes from the story and more exactly how the story is told and those that believe in the story. You the reader fell for it. You were seduced by the story of Dani. That's why it hurts so much when she betrayed her own beliefs, betrays some of her people, and betrays you the reader when she crosses the line into corruption. It happened with Ned when he tried to change the words of his king. It happened with Rob when he failed to honor a promise. It happens to everyone in the story who seeks power. It will happen again with Bran and his council eventually because the author doesn't believe people change. This is just how people are. We fall for it every time. All the details in the story are just elements to reinforce your belief, to trick you. Magic, religion, prophesy, succession, it's all BS that shouldn't be trusted is what the author is trying to teach you by abusing you. Melisandra believed she knew best because she can do magic. She was wrong. Cerci believed she knew best because might makes right. She was wrong. We were all temptted to believe in Jon because of resurrection. Jon wasn't convinced. Dani believed she knew best because she can't burn, succession, AND dragons. The author uses prophecy, magic, and religion to trick you just like it tricks the characters into believing the wrong thing. The author is clearly trying to demonstrate that those that seek power and those that believe in them are doomed. He clearly rewards those that don't seek power; Jon, Aria, and Bran. The message is real clear. I think people just can't get past the betrayal the author wanted them to feel. They are so butthurt about it, they want the story to be rewritten.

[@Thewhitequeen0]

The thing about Daenerys is that almost all of her actions prior to burning King's Landing can be justified. For example, when we talk about the crucifixion of slavers including the ones who opposed crucifying children...they were STILL slavers, and that didn't mean they opposed crucifying grown slaves. Burning the Tarlys wasn't the act of a 'mAd qUeEn', it was the execution of two traitors who killed many people and would've done worse to her, and that doesn't include the chances they were given to live. Her burning King's Landing was the first time she did something truly irrational and cruel (especially towards women and children, who she has defended in the past), but the show never earned her doing that. That's why I consider the end to be character assassination, because even if that end is planned for her character in the books, I know GRRM will develop her to reach that point. The show never did.

[@willhiggins9563]

Thewhitequeen0 The way Tyrion explained it, the fact that her questionable actions in the past all had reasons, and most turned out OK, lead her to literally think she could do no wrong.

[@Finallyflowered]

From the Tarly's perspective she was a usurper to the throne. We are all the hero's of our own story. What Dani did was justified only from her perspective throughout the story. Another perspective is that killing is never justified. Frankly the idea that anyone is entitled to rule the entire world and can kill anyone that doesn't respect their authority to do so is a delusional. So was Dani thinking the people of King's Landing should take up and over throw Cersie to let her in as Queen when they were literally worried about feeding their children.

[@peacechickification]

What I took from it is how dangerous justifications are. Yes, the justifications for those first cruel deeds she did were blatantly shared with us to understand and empathize with, but that doesn't mean that she didn't have what she considered perfectly reasonable justification to burn kings landing just because it wasn't explicitly shared with us. I've seen some people do some horribly cruel shit thinking they're being kind because of their good intentions, justifications, and refusing to listen to people that stand against them.

[@Thewhitequeen0]

@@willhiggins9563 But part of Daenery's story is her struggling with being a young ruler and making mistakes, and having to struggle with those mistakes, so the whole 'I'm the only one who knows what's right' was such a rushed development for her character. And even more so, Tyrion of all people should have enough self awareness to know he has no right to say that considering he's one of the people she's made an effort to listen to (and he's screwed her over on several occasions for it.)

[@Thewhitequeen0]

@@Finallyflowered But this isn't about being a hero. This is a show where almost every single character has killed other people, often in morally questionable ways and reasons. All of these characters are not supposed to be looked at as good or bad besides exceptions like Joffrey or Ramsay. Daenerys is considered justified not just because she believes herself to be, but because the people around her did as well. She's had many people support her due to her actions. You can understand the thought process behind her taking every action she's made up until King's Landing, where she all of a sudden decides to kill thousands of people who surrendered to her beforehand. The point I'm making is that the show didn't put in the work to transition Dany from being a character who did things that could be justified and understood to doing something that her father, who was genuinely crazy, would do.

[@cleverusername9369]

Writing bad endings for amazing TV shows is super easy, barely an inconvenience.

[@naraycross2901]

There is also that aspect of Fantasy as you pointed out. Though the last two season's focus more on the real-human world perspective then the questions and build up on the fantasy that George made. Honestly, they should of waited 'cause Fantasy is propelling this world. Or at least asked George to help with the writing. This is why reading the book is better. But it doesn't help that George takes forever either.

[@Jesthor]

"But first a very basic overview: The NSA wins in politics."

[@fattahrambe]

It's deeply dumb.

[@shadowfreak71972]

I just streamed the series to see what everyone was so hyped about. For the entirety of the show's run, I haven't had HBO and so haven't gone out of my way to uncover ways of watching it, content to wait for the opportunity to just binge it, if I so wanted, and boy, I wanted! By the time I reached the end, I was exhausted, having sprinted through 2-4 episodes per night to get through as quickly as possible. When I did finish watching, I was thoroughly confused. I could see why everyone was confused, but couldn't agree with everyone being so livid towards Weiss and Benioff. I've spent the day, watching a few videos to help me understand what I'm missing and THIS one is absolutely THE most well-thought, compelling and well-explained rundown on the valid points which help me to best understand that, yes The final episode and, in fact the final season was poorly-written. I do hope that someone takes head of this video and then of the petition.

[@Feynman981]

You really didn‘t got that Bran is the only Person in Westeros capable of controlling Drogon after Daenerys death? He was the one influencing everyone through his powers. He made the Ice King. He created the war to come on the Throne. Now he‘ll get the dragon as his Trophy and rule.

[@Aadam711]

One element of the finale you seem to have omitted, and which is in some way connected to the entire show's meaning is that throughout eight seasons, the great houses of Westeros kept retaliating for older grievances, but the finale shows the main characters making an attempt to forgive and forget, and move on with their lives in relative peace, to the best of their ability. This, by the way is in an interesting parallel to how European countries weren't able to forget and forgive WWI, which in turn fueled WWII, which we try very hard to remember correctly, so we don't repeat the mistakes that led to it. Also, in the middle ages, there was a sort of mandatory oblivion on past conflicts, so that people can eventually move on and not harbor old grudges, which is also an interesting parallel in a fantasy show.

[@midwings00]

Except for House Stark who actually lives to try and forget? Gendry is a bastard,Tyrion was treated like a bastard and freak, the Greyjoy girl...what exacydid she do? She was even more useless than Euron in the end. Only the true blooded Starks win and survive.

[@jkbuckeye1]

@@midwings00 Exactly- and they subsequently secede again. Plus Dorne really never cared and there are no Tyrells left either (just Bronn in the Reach) and then "holy shit is that Robin Arryn?!" in the Vale. And you know he ain't doin' shit.

[@midwings00]

@@jkbuckeye1 all this analysis means squat when it appears the lead writers don't care. I mean it seems like the show became a phenomenon but for the writers it was just another job and they just wanted it to end good or bad

[@dolerulz]

I think that the ending's problem is not satisfying from an entertainment point of view. But its bloody genius. It parallels real life. This exact same thing happened when the Roman Kingdom became the Roman Republic. Which collapsed into a dictatorial unstable Roman Empire, with a few emperors lasting mere days. And it has repeated several times, right up to modern democracy.

[@bretttaylor8384]

I think it’a helpful to not view power as corrupting. Power does not corrupt so much as it truly reveals a persons preexistent character. View it through that lens and you might have a new perspective on the show.

[@JasonT404]

Should have ended with Tyrion or Sam inventing the steam engine. The only way out of their cycle of violence is both 1) no more dragons & introduction of wall destroying gunpowder 2) exponential improvement to the agricultural economy removing the need for subsistence farming and allowing the society to feed its people enabling widespread specialization. Elective monarchy is a dumb idea unless Bran lives forever.

[@joshmciver4847]

I was really hoping Wisecrack, of all people would be able to find something "deep" about this season, but... nope. Much sad.

[@peaceflowerstudios6833]

Did you find anything?

[@Predestinated1]

Varys trying to poison Dany was brilliant though.

[@TheBrood525]

Love the show guys, but could you guys do the philosophy of mukbangs, ASMR, and other strange internet trends?

[@giannacrotty8045]

jewoo han also Billie Eilish

[@giornogiovanna845]

Dorne had more claim to leave the 7 kingdoms than Winterfell since by the laws and rules of this story Dorne was never conquered but willingly joined the system while on the other hand the Starks bent the knee. Jon Snow being the rightful ruler would have to give permission for them to leave. That whole debacle was just to make Sansa look good and make the Starks the defacto main characters of the show😒 It was poor writing mixed with inconsistency mixed with fan service😩

[@raphaelkhan1668]

The Starks were always the main characters dude.

[@Eckertainment]

I didn't like the finale, but I think the point they were trying to make was that a lot of the people left in power, despite having gone through and seen so much suffering caused by those above them, didn't really learn their lesson. Basically the message was "history is often doomed to repeat itself because of human nature and inability to alter the status quo enough for true change." The scene of everyone laughing at Sam's idea of essentially a democracy was at first a bit confusing but then, after pondering it, very telling to me. Everyone sitting in that circle had watched plenty of rulers and those is greater power than themselves completely screw things up for everyone below them and yet they still felt the same system was still the answer so long as different people were in charge. They wouldn't even take a moment to consider what a more democratic system, or any other system at all really, would mean for the overall wellbeing and happiness of the seven kingdoms. They wanted change but still mostly stuck to their ways. So maybe deciding to elect a king versus bloodline succession and Bran stepping back and letting his small council basically rule on his behalf were meant to be some small steps in a better direction? Either way, there wasn't enough solid content to confidentially conclude the true intention of the final season or finale. Real shame, but that's my take on it.

[@christophertracy7272]

Sorry the end was beyond stupid! Dany not a mad Queen in an EP! I thought she was going 2 have Jon's child!

[@VeilQuest]

It would have been more interesting if she WAS pregnant with a baby Targaeryn and Jon had to decide whether his progeny and lover were worth more than the fate of the realm.

[@jesseling2802]

She was shown to be easily able to slide into madness from the start. Watching your brother die horribly with zero emotional response,anyone?

[@francisthompson3772]

@@jesseling2802 Her abusive and crazy brother, you mean. And she did regret his child self, we saw it in the book at least.

[@jaimearviso4771]

Honestly, the finale is a blessing to GRRM whose book sales will go through the roof. In addition, a remake (or partial remake starting at Season 5) would be plausible.

[@salahhe]

I think everybody being so disappointed is ruining everything. The book sales, the spin-offs, HBO itself. Maybe George will have his book worms still faithful, but if the ending had been great, they would have gone through the roof.

[@caynebyron]

I still hope we get a "What Went Wrong?" video for season 8.

[@elijahschnake3863]

Would be longer than the season.

[@mojohvncho5418]

I don't understand how someone who considers themselves a fan can actually enjoy this ending or rather the entire last season as a whole

[@bobgriffin3848]

I was hoping you'd touch on the theme of compromise. It really ties things together. Bran isn't the perfect king he's not supposed to be, hes a morally grey wizard that wormed his way into power and created a political structure that allows him to stay in power, body hopping one to another for generations to come, which is only slightly better than houses warring over the throne. Danny would never compromise that's what made her a great leader but also what drove her insane, john only compromises in the last episode when he betrays her. Going all the way back to season 1 when Ned was beheaded. At first he refuses to keep his mouth shut about Jauffre , then in the end when he does renounce himself Jauffre refuses to accept spare his life through shear insanity. Rob dies on the day he marries the woman he love. Walder Frey even comments on the whole union at one point, I forget when, stating he should have just taken his daughter as a wife and kept Talissa as a mistress. The most glaring example by far, is in the viper vs the mountain, when Oberon Martel literally defeats Gregor in combat but then dies because he refuses to end the fight without a full confession by sir Gregor, which he gets at the cost of his life.

[@AndrejNikolov-xw2gi]

To save you time... It's dumb.

[@IBradFrazer]

It's painfully obvious the 8th and final season of Game of Thrones was rushed so D&D could start work on the new Star Wars trilogies. In other words, they got greedy and wanted money. The show needed at least 3 more seasons for it to not feel so rushed, and if D&D couldn't provide that... then they should have gave someone else that opportunity, but refused in case they did a better a job than them. I hate how most actors are defending the shows abrupt ending with smiles and what not. The ending is what makes a show truly great, and unfortunately, Game of Thrones will now forever be remembered as a show that flopped. It could have been a multi-generation defining show for decades to come, but they just had to go and fuck it up.

[@nviz47]

When he says that is the wheel our Queen wanted to break to the council that's bs, she wanted to rule because she thought it was her birthright; his point about kings heirs being cruel or anything being a problem therefore is nonsensical.

[@Jeremy-ql1or]

Every video about E8 that I have watched on KZbin is better thought out than the actual episode was.

[@thecoolwaffle4908]

I see Wisecrack? I click. This is going to be great!

[@nobodyinparticular8370]

Same, Mr. Fellow Man of Culture!

[@MH55555555]

unlike the GoT finale

[@shamm9374]

Finally! Wisecrack takes a crack at GoT!

[@birgittabirgersdatter8082]

It wasn't being the three eyed raven that disqualified Bran from being the Lord of Winterfell, it was his inability to sire an heir. Whereas that inability was touted by Tyron as being a good thing if Bran were to be King.

[@benedictifye]

Season 8 isn't the problem, the whole back half of the series is the problem. The DB's didn't know what to do when they ran out of books

[@patrickgogan3517]

5-8 was them winging it only a handful of episodes in 5 6 and 7 were good

[@sergebertani1640]

"Some light crimes against humanity" Ummm ..... okrrrrr ??

[@ridensroom6957]

I just wish people saw this back in 2015. Season 5 really was the beginning of the end

[@Dieg0Restrep0]

Big problem with this video: George R. R. Martin didn't collaborate with the show from season 7 and especially for season 8, that was not his ending, but the D&D ending (a terrible one).

[@krzyszwojciech]

There's another angle to look at. Getting deeper into the mythology and ontology of the world, we have the Three Eyed Raven connected to the power of the weirwood trees/the old gods. Those trees were almost wiped out from the continent as was the old faith. While the Faith of the Seven is more sentimental and superficial and lacks any miraculous evidence, the old faith represented something real about the world, something more down to earth and more in tune with human nature, including its more nasty aspects [blood sacrifice]. And those old gods just exposed their intimidating power to the whole of Westeros. Will the old faith resurface in the South? Were the old gods the ones climbing the ladder? More metaphorically, is humanity really in control, is there such a thing as the power to make a free choice, or are we possessed by something deeper, our nature comprised of forces we rarely inspect? And if that's the case, can't we learn from it, shouldn't we take it into account? Face the truth about ourselves? We may repeat after GoT that power resides where men believe it resides, but what in the end are those beliefs based on and should we be mindful of the reasons on how we acquire them? History is an encyclopedia of humanity's mistakes and it should have at least one of the top positions in how we continue to make decisions in the future.

[@theoriole8700]

If Bran does end up king (in books) maybe Martin is saying that humans are not really in control or should not be in control since Bran is not Bran but the 3ER who is a creature of the CotF.

[@rebeccalembcke5365]

Great comment. I agree History or his-story could be seen as our encyclopedia, but viewed through the lens that history is told from the perspective of the victor and is subject to interpretation. Knowing where we've been should mean that we are better equipped to make decisions yes- but that doesn't mean they'll be the "best" decisions; made for "the greater good of the majority". Like Napoleon said 'What is history, but a fable agreed upon?”. It is said that professors find it difficult to encourage critical thinking among their students and maybe this is one of the major flaws in modern-education and in modern society. From the very beginning of our life we are taught to listen to and obey our elders and teachers; this influence is powerful beyond measure and allows the elder to plant any seed amongst the fertile earth within every student. The type of garden we end up with is determined by the intent of the elder who planted the seed. The intent of that elder is determined by the elder before him, and the story written and life lived of the elder before him ad infinitum. What should be a reliable system based on trust, is also equally untrustworthy......Vae Victis.

[@theoriole8700]

@@rebeccalembcke5365 I like your take here. Have you ever read "A Children's Story" by James Clavell? (written in the 1960s)Nothing to do both medieval l fantasy, but everything to do with the practice of planting ideas. It is short and powerful.

[@malic_zarith]

The reason the ending was so bad was likely due to them having Arya kill the night king. Jon was probably supposed to stab Danearys in winterfell to fulfill that one prophecy required to kill the night king. By making Arya the one to defeat the night king, they still had to get Danearys stabbed somehow.

[@nehukybis]

What was Aragon's tax policy? Tolkien himself started to write a sequel which would have answered that question and many others. He gave up after a dozen pages or so, when he realized it was dumb.

[@andrembrandao]

I think they tried to subvert the hero''s journey. The hero John snow wins the war, but has to kill the princess and is sentenced for Life. While at the same time tried to show in the last session that the audience liked a tyrant the whole time, because Dany has always been one. But the show made us like her. The wheel was not broken, the power relations just shifted. There will be those with it, and those without it. Its only a more stable period. Its poorly written, but its all there.

[@introXversion]

11:40 no no no no no no no no I didn't think you guys would overlook it, but it seems pretty clear to me (and several people I've spoken with about it) that the contradictory messages of the final moments of the show provide the ultimate message that there are many different ways to view the world and that the world will keep on going no matter what struggles life (and perhaps even humanity) finds itself facing. If that's a message you consider 'dumb,' then.....? Tyrion wants democracy, and it even sounds appealing to many within the group, while sounding ridiculous to a few (someone even laughs at the idea). Jon Snow is clearly the best pick to lead Westeros into a more peaceful and just future, but that's not the way everyone sees it. Tyrion hopes for a more orderly and clean society, so he shifts the chairs. The others come in and do what they wish because that's what people do. They all see the room differently. They all see power differently. They all see the world differently, and despite all of those conflicting perspectives, the world will keep on spinning with those who are left. That's clearly the message, which most certainly is deep, and very much fits into the themes of the show as many people have expressed what their own unique view of what 'power' is, as well as the fact that the show perpetually (and in a totally nihilistic manner) eliminates people for a variety of reasons. Some are unlucky, some are outplayed, some die from revenge, and some die to protect others or for others to gain influence. And through all of that, the world kept going on without them, just as the world will keep going with the people who are currently gone, just as the world will keep going without Game of Thrones. I personally love the message, and I really don't think it's a matter of interpretation, let alone 'bad writing.' It's in fact a very humble message that can resonate with anyone while commenting on the the fact that good stories come and go but the ones worth sharing will simply be passed on. It's honestly an elegant asf ending. EDIT: On 'what the show is about:' Nothing, and everything; everything is nothing; nothing (ex. the things humans concern themselves with) is everything (to humans); existentialism

[@MrOskarlol]

problem with night king before kings landing is when u have killed satan who cares who is king. When u set up something as the most terrible thing inn your story and then kill it mid way through the rest loses meaning. its like it reaches peak tension only to die and never reach the same highs with half a season to go.

[@marcopederzoli4939]

I am 100% sure one day some very talented people will remake season 8 (with identical actors and voices, thanks to perfect CGI). And I hope they remake also almost all season 7 and part of season 6

[@jaxeight]

The good things about GOT Season 8 ending are that Jon Snow and Ghost Survived.

[@buddhidev7877]

The realm of seven kingdoms should be dissolved being 7 independent kingdoms IMO

[@sayuas4293]

The wheel can't be broken.

[@tiputhesultan]

GUYS! Please do a "DEEP OR DUMB?" episode on Nicolas Winding Refn's TOO OLD TO DIE YOUNG. It's a riveting show and the well-earned pinnacle of Refn's artistry as a visual storyteller. And with all it's cinematic posturing and ungodly amounts of self-indulgence, it's absolutely ripe for a Deep or Dumb breakdown. Really looking forward for you guys to deconstruct the shit out of that show!

[@niabride7636]

All hail to Bureaucracy. And thats it,how you crush the wheel. Bronn isnt King as much as small council isnt voice of the rich. King is for show, Bronn is for show, his abilities would never made him a king, but his lack of interest makes councils work easier.

[@tritonneptune3834]

Deep or Dumb? More like Dumb or Dumber

[@QueenDaenerysTargaryen]

Break one wheel, two take it's place.

[@madamsahab9808]

Bran was shown as a good lord of winterfell right before the attack of greyjoy.

[@grandmasterreggae]

By the time the book series has been finished it will have been long enough for a rebooted Game of Thrones tv show that can finish properly.

[@hvymettle]

Was it deep to switch from a hereditary monarchy to an aristocratic oligarchy? The people are screwed either way.

[@jacobzerah617]

And only 90 years later the great grandson of Jon Snow starts an invasion of the north in order to reclaim his birthright of the 7 kingdoms as a Targaryen....

[@obscure4847]

*curb your enthusiasm theme song starts playing*

[@federicozambrotta30]

Baby Jon will be the next King beyond the Wall and Tormund’s daughter will be his wife. He’ll get over the Wall, seize Winterfell, descend the Neck, devastate the Riverlands, conquer King’s Landing and will sit on the Iron Throne. Oops it won’t exist anymore. He’s gonna have to build a new one

[@chanceroberts7494]

Or maybe Jon becomes the new night knight

[@uncomfortablecat]

Wait........ What were the Conditions? Jon can't marry someone nor have children, right?

[@GhostFan-ev4di]

@@chanceroberts7494 no fuck that lol

[@SpiralSine6]

Shoutout to Drogon for having the wisdom to understand a third-person perspective on what truly killed Dany, as opposed to what technically killed her.

[@tauriqabdullah6130]

Did the iron throne cause her to murder the innocents? Were the innocents preventing her from attainment? I think not. The city surrendered and yet she torched the city. As a result of the massacre, she was assassinated, as opposed to as a result of her wanting the throne. Thus I don't believe the throne got her killed. She went crazy and that got her killed. She's a targryan and was apparently going crazy either way, regardless of the throne. The coin flipped unfavourably for her remember. Ie. This season has been disgusting.

[@psilocinesthesia]

The books made a big deal talking about how intelligent dragons were, so I think it's reasonable to argue that Drogon understood that Dany had gone off the deep end and that Jon killed her because she never would have stopped on her own, not out of any desire to hurt her or for power. In that context, Drogon melted the Iron Throne as a symbolic warning to not make the same mistakes Dany did, as much as he also did it for catharsis as he grieved for her.

[@TheKillaShow]

Kendall Brown Drogon doesn’t know what a fucking throne is man.

[@54markl]

His wisdom was temporarily conferred on him by Benioff and Weiss, to get him and Dany’s dead body out of there quickly.

[@Lekjih]

The Drogon who melted the iron throne and spares Jon understood that power corrupts and would not have allowed itself to be used to nuke a city. The Drogon that burnt the city would not have spared Jon and disappeared. Either something happened that we don’t see (Bran or Dany as she’s dying wargs Drogon) or even the dragon was inconsistent and out of character.

[@ThatGuyNextDoor99]

I laughed so hard when I saw Bronn had become the master of coin. Literally a guy who dosen't know what a loan is.

[@johnr8095]

you'd think that bran, being so wise, might have an objection to this. Another example of why he wasn't actually a good fit as ruler

[@cain7925]

master of war would be more fits for him

[@Celtic_Blade]

My thing about it is, if you can make a king you can unmake him. And that isn’t a king. Just get a new king and go on. Democracy ruins fantasy.

[@awesimo4684]

@@cain7925 Or just, what he always wanted, being Lord of a Castle. Not sure why he gave up High Garden to go and have a job in KL

[@alexandrebeaudry8377]

It's call the Peter Principle. An observation that the tendency in most organizational hierarchies, such as that of a corporation, is for every employee to rise in the hierarchy through promotion until they reach a level of respective incompetence. It's not impossible to think that Bronn coud negociate is way to the top without any skills. He didn't had any skill as a monarch either to rule over a castle and no one bat an eye before.

[@asifchowdhury1426]

More thought was put into this analysis than into season 8.

[@christos49]

More thought was put into your comment than into season 8

[@LTDoge-dm3jr]

More thought was put into what I want for breakfast than season 8

[@Connor.SG-1Ring]

Question: Deep or Dumb? Answer: Dumb & Dumber

[@matthewsmith3078]

Connor Kent! Derp and Derper...

[@bradmodd7856]

That answer was not as deep and complex as I like...anyway, the silliest thing in the whole series for me has to be a prisoner in chains informing all the rulers how it's gonna be from then on...and everyone so high on throne fumes has a big love-in. It was, in a way, everything GoT wasn't.

[@juanignacioordoqui7539]

Season 8 was an insult to the viewers intelligence

[@kenonerboy]

Dick und doof

[@trillgates2452]

Season 8 was trash.

[@javifernandez1685]

Me after watching Season 8 Syrio Forel: What do we say to the God of death? Me: Please Today

[@Collegia_Titanica]

-Season 8 Stannis: A lie, take it out!

[@foodsthatstartwiththelette1745]

😂😂

[@whitealliance9540]

Syrio: what do we say to - Me: let me stop you right there. You mean nothing. Your storyline means nothing. All of this was meaninglessness.

[@hamoshikazaryan7083]

Please before I watched this stupid sh...t ending! :)

[@sayuas4293]

You didn't mention that Sam actually proposed a democracy but all the main characters of the series just laughed at him.

[@vebdaklu]

People often laugh at novel ideas, that part is true to life.

[@10ReasonsWhy]

@@vebdaklu It's not novel in asoiaf universe though, look at the Ironborn's Kingsmoot

[@varangiangaming7178]

@@10ReasonsWhy or the various free cities and their merchant republics.

[@covenawhite4855]

The peasants are treated so horribly by the Nobels it would be impossible for the Nobels to feel good about giving them power in Government

[@johannlabertaler6095]

I really look forward to the remake in 20 years!

[@ChRiyad]

Game of Thrones : Brotherhood

[@Daelyas]

Oh I dont... it was already a slightly tedious show ... let it be done.

[@maxzaslove6897]

@@Daelyas your dumb

[@Carium1]

It'll somehow be worse

[@Predestinated1]

The writing was a bit rushed. But still good.

[@RKNGL]

Season 9: The Wheelchair that will Mount the World!

[@Cdeseco]

excellent

[@AnInsideJoke]

My first thought at them naming Bran king was "Oh my god, they're gonna have to build so many wheelchair ramps, the Red Keep is so not wheelchair accessible."

[@kristijantodorovski1918]

She gets replaced by the NSA 😂😂😂

[@kasim7509]

do i need a 22 minute video to answer the question in the title? no am i still going to watch it? absolutely

[@quarter-lifecrisis5127]

exactly XD

[@gaurav6192]

The fact that you decide to make a 'deep or dump' episode instead of a 'philosophy of...' one, says it all

[@ay_azulita]

PREACH.

[@Analysis_Paralysis]

The serial was dumb from the get go!

[@birgittabirgersdatter8082]

Adela Setara no, making the series before the books were finished was dumb. The story itself is only dumb to those with a short attention span.

[@Analysis_Paralysis]

@@birgittabirgersdatter8082 Everyone who is critical of the media you like has a short attention span? Yeah, this argument is almost as dumb as the series you like.

[@doomdoot6731]

@@Analysis_Paralysis "Everyone who is critical of a medium" (not media; that's the plural) is surely not calling it dumb. People who are critical of the show are calling out the problems while acknowledging what it achieves - subverting and redefining modernday Fantasy media - not going around calling it "dumb" as if they lacked appropriate vocabulary to express their problems with the show.

[@SuperOllie1993]

I think you put more thought into this than Weiss and Benioff did

[@arthurclement8656]

Yeah the video is deeper than season 8 writing

[@kikima258]

Everyone put more thought into this except the writters

[@ailouros24]

it is as if a monkey took a nosedive in a paint container and decided to drag his balls across canvas and this guy saw the result and strained to figure out what the artist was trying to say...

[@sangitamahanti386]

As did several KZbinrs,fans, composers,lyricists, and basically everyone except the writers who were actually paid to do so

[@54markl]

Benioff and Weiss are pushy business midgets, they are not what I would call creative people.

[@connorapurcell]

@8:20 "Sansa wanted to free the Northern small folk from tyrants" - Sorry, gonna have to call BULLSHIT on that, Jared. Sansa never wanted to free anyone - she wanted to BECOME the tyrant. Which is why she betrayed Jon by breaking her vow to keep the secret of his lineage; she intended for Jon to take the iron throne, and then become 'Queen of the North'. Things didn't turn out exactly as she had hoped, but she still ended up becoming 'Queen of the North' after manipulating the council to select Bran as King, then seceding from the realm with her brother's permission.

[@vebdaklu]

The thirst for power is a central theme of the show, after all. The victims can be as guilty of it as their aggressors.

[@PsychBoost]

Me: I'm so bored of these GOT reaction videos, I'm never watching another! Wisecrack uploads a GOT reaction video Me: oooh this will be good. Click!

[@stugeh]

That about sums it up

[@kojomakadara464]

Guilty af

[@AlvaroChuquiureZadig]

ikr ! hahaha

[@y.o.s6000]

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.

[@Casual_Shots]

Pretty much

[@Sheepy007]

Audience: " We want complex Characters and intrigue." DnD: "No. We want Zombie Bears and Dragons."

[@estudiordl]

I don't mind if they throw a couple of war elephants also... 😜

[@DreamOfMugen]

I wanted those elephants.

[@mikehoot3978]

The show without Dragons would be bad. The REAL enemy of character development is SHOCK VALUE.

[@DustinMTaylor]

I mean, is it too much to ask for both?

[@skaterdude7277]

Sheepy can you explain what DND is?

[@moekhn]

The final season felt like... You know when your at a restraunt and you get there 1hr before they close. They sit you down and take your order then start to flip all the other chairs onto the tables and cleaning everything around . Like hurry up and leave feeling

[@LordMichaelRahl]

"What do we say to the God of Good Writing?" Dn'D: "Not today."

[@nobodyinparticular8370]

Wahaha! Well, that was certainly true for this season of GoT.

[@AYoutubechannel1448]

Not all think the way you both do.

[@timothypolanco8622]

@@AKZbinchannel1448 Yeah idiots don't think it's bad.

[@SCHMALLZZZ]

@@timothypolanco8622 name calling is not good writing

[@angela_merkeI]

@@AKZbinchannel1448 And what are we supposed to do with that information, Captain Obvious?

[@alexandervaucrosson7841]

I honestly think that John Snow petting his doggo is the one thing preventing GoT fans from fully rioting in the streets. Without that one scene America would've became Mad Max.

[@seanbailey317]

Alexander Vaucrosson Yet in the episode where he leaves the wall, he can’t pet ghost cos ‘it’s too hard for cgi’ or whatever bullshit they came up with.

[@Evija3000]

@@seanbailey317 I read a comment that his pet in the end is reused footage from an earlier season. I guess they found their way around that cgi issue...

[@jacoblevenson7934]

So postponing the inevitable?

[@alexthebomber]

Alexander Vaucrosson anericas shit, no one would care if it turned into mad max

[@KrypticWarrior2]

you say that like thats a bad thing

[@joaovictor_of]

*-Dumb.* Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

[@felixalmonte9087]

The writers are the spokes on the wheel, crushing the fans on the ground.

[@youneskasdi]

It's dumb This is wisecrack and thank you for watching.

[@Dr_Smash]

Wouldn't Dorne and the Iron Islands claim independence from a weakened sovereignty? Wouldn't some of the Northern lords rebel from Sansa since then actually chose Jon? Does Bran being the Three-eyed Raven actually make him a good ruler? These are the kind of things that Martin would ask to separate from Tolkein. But the writers of the show just wanted it to end.

[@Brandonhayhew]

They could have divided westeros into seven independent kingdoms. Or restore Jon to the throne and what about the wildlings shouldn't they be rewarded like integrate them to the north citizenship. Who will sansa marry? Edit: divided westeros will only lead to more wars, but it does make sense because Targaryen builded their unity by fire & blood and ended with that same way.

[@frankmeyer8593]

Tyrion: So everybody is gonna be king but I'm the imperator.

[@JewTube001]

nobody in the north would rebel. that's long over and done with by this point. jon doesn't want to challenge his sister, and probably never will.

[@elineverstraeten1872]

I don't think the Northern lords would rebel, because when Jon and Sansa did this co-ruler thing, they all agreed with her, while Jon did his own thing. Sansa cares about the North and listens to the lords. (you could also say that they agreed to her ruling them of-screen, since she went to represent them and was crowned without protest, but that's stupid)

[@Dr_Smash]

@@elineverstraeten1872 Most of the lords probably wouldn't rebel, but with examples like the Boltons, Frays, Umbers, and Karstarks, it only takes one leader of a house to claim that they shouldn't have to follow Sansa or her successors.

[@theshiddler1640]

Dumb. Just plain dumb. I’d pay for a team of animators to redo the last two seasons with new writers.

[@ajanisgreat]

That's a really good idea!

[@abadyr_]

Let's do the last 4 please. Dorne and victarion deserve justice, Arya deserve to learn actually interesting stuff, John deserve not to be completely incompetent, and Tyrion, varys and littlefiger deserve to remain intelligent.

[@bigred6137]

Do it

[@lordmartinak]

I would go to season 2 :D but seriously I think that the series shoud have made a commitment to do something like 12 seasons or start to diverge from books earlier and be lighter in content to end with proper conclusion

[@jesusllanas9318]

But we can't pull a people from the current main stream animation studios.......far to much going in and liberal we need grassroots movement

[@michellemartinez1994]

Thinking there's depth in the last season is definitely overreaching

[@m3ntyb]

They flew by the seat of their pants. There was no underpinning theme to them. The goal was “wrap anything up” however you can. And that’s it. WE wanted meaning and cohesion. It’s disjointed because they are nothing but capitalists and opportunists and so the story became.

[@franklinbongo6893]

Dexter and GoT both ended with the protagonist moving to a northern forest to live as a lumberjack #montypython

[@mrchiefbs]

Lmao for some reason I like the Dexter ending or at least I tell myself that...

[@lukehalstead5016]

Sounds OK to me

[@hermanspaerman3490]

That's so good, I demand an addition to the Dexter ending. Dexter sits down on his chair and suddenly a couple of Canadian mounties enter and cue the Luberjack song.

[@Predestinated1]

Jon became the king of the free folk. Don't be childish

[@batgurrl]

Herman Spaerman I’m a lumberjack and I’m okay I sleep all night and work all day . Oh never mind ☮️😎

[@thisguydan]

The only people who are happy with the finale season of GoT are the Lost writers. Finally, they're not the worst.

[@karekarenohay4432]

And Rian Johnson!!!!

[@DerMoerpler]

They havn't been for many years. Since Dexter ended to be exact. And I would still rank the Lost finale below GoT. Both of those were long ago and people seem to have forgotten just how bad they were.

[@thisguydan]

@@DerMoerpler Dexter was a bad way to end the story, but at least the finale wasn't the crux of the whole series. All of Lost was built on dragging you along by building up and teasing a mystery. B/c of that, the finale's solution retroactively makes the entire series worse. This is why I'd say it's the worst finale until GoT, and it's arguable if it isn't still the worst. They're close in my book as they both hurt the rewatch in such a fundamental way.

[@DerMoerpler]

@@thisguydan GoT finale had a bigger impact because seasons 5-7, while not as strong as the first 4, were still good. Lost and Dexter on the other hand got worse over time, so the bad ending didn't hurt as much. I can see your point on Dexter, though I'm not sure that makes it better or worse than GoT. I'll find that out on a rewatch, and how much the series suffers retroactively (GoT that is, I'm not spending my limited time on earth rewatching Dexter). I'd argue that Lost has the worst ending. That is because I'm not against most of the plot developments in GoT on principle but on execution. I could see ending up where they did if it just was told in a more complex and logical and less rushed way, whereas the ending of Lost is just a complete garbagefire alltogether.

[@thisguydan]

I definitely agree that the GoT endpoints were fine - it was the lack of coherent development in getting us there. Every answer in Lost led to more questions. The story was built upon the promise of a satisfying explanation which ended up being a cop-out. GoT at least had satisfying resolutions along the way, making it a better rewatch. That said, and maybe it's the recency of it, but GoT finale still feels like the biggest disappointment to date. It was the most watched show, enormous budget and talent, HBO asking them to please take their money and all the time they needed to finish the story, an incredible story at that, and they basically chose to do a half-ass job to leave early. The finale of one failed because of a lack of imagination; the other because the writers stopped caring and chose to skip out on a dedicated audience who've followed for years. That makes it a bigger sore spot than Lost to me.

[@Andrito3000]

It was disappointing, pathetic and uninspiring! And I had very high hopes for Daenerys and Jaime 's storylines even after the huge disappointing death of Petyr Baelish, pretty much my top 3 favorite characters.

[@beth6703]

I forgot about Baleish's death. That was disappointing and awful. The whole Sansa vs. Arya thing was awful and confusing.

[@Shiryd]

@MarcyyD yeah I was also sold at that moment, just losing my mind over that scene because the delivery was simply fantastic, but when I looked more into it, Arya vs Sansa didn´t make any sense

[@user-cs1ep6jj2o]

He was my fav character too. But tbh he had it coming.

[@vebdaklu]

@@user-cs1ep6jj2o true, all the horrible characters died terribly, and he was definitely a horrible character.

[@c_p1858]

“But unlike Twitter, we want to give this show a fair shot” *Fair* shots fired Wisecrack

[@CHIEF__]

Curious_ Pizza I’d say 80% of criticism of twitter is fair and reasonable though, and the 10% on either side are overblown by each other and that’s all you see.

[@Cursed_Mark]

@@CHIEF__ That sounds very scientific.

[@JokermanUno]

@@Cursed_Mark lmao exactly. That entire comment encapsulates Twitter.

[@junatan25]

Shots faired

[@c_p1858]

Alex Angerman I agree I’m just quoting what they said in the video

[@laurocoman]

I didn't expect the Long Night to be a single long night. The spiral symbol represents the expectations going down the toilet, that is some good foreshadowing D&D!

[@ML-yn9yu]

Yea, I didnt like that this dude thought that the NK fight should have been before the throne.. the whole season 7 was about how it wouldn't matter who is on the throne if they are all dead..

[@laurocoman]

@@ML-yn9yu It really didn't did it? By the end hardly anyone cared. It might have made a little more sense if there had actually been a proper battle for the throne after the NK death but it lasted a couple minutes with a clear winner, then genocide and every other episode was filler. There was no point to any of it, if they wanted the battle for the throne to be the main issue they could have had... a battle for the throne? What were those 2 episodes in Winterfell for if it was going to end that quickly? The NK could have died in episode 1 and have the fucking squabble for the throne the rest of the season, otherwise you get a bunch of filler episodes!

[@HK-gm8pe]

haha :D there are just too many problems with season 8 , I dont think that nobody can talk about all of them , fact that this mad queen thing came almost out of nowhere, they didnt build up this moment at all , fact that whole point was "breaking the wheel" and still after Dany is dead, who are the people who decide who is going to be the next king? LORDS OF WESTEROS, most powerful people of the westeros....not the real surviving people , If I remember correctly then one of these lords even laughed at the idea of real people electing their own leaders....so what was the point of the whole show? And I cant even talk about the "long" night....what? Like first long night lasted decades and now this one is just....15 minutes and didnt have any impact on the show either, fact that dothraki and unsullied were dying in the ong night but then when its time for final battle they just show up like nothing happened...

[@laurocoman]

@@HK-gm8pe And if we look into it. What was the big impact of Daenerys? She freed a city that revolted and is still filled with slaves, one of those three guys that planned the cup is still alive, which means that he will just keep doing slavery with her gone. By the time she arrived at Westeros the last Lannisters and Starks were already screwed and she spent one week in King's Landing before dying. The Dothraki are going to disband back into whatever they were and most of the Unsullies she freed died so... there is little to no difference between her crazy ass existing or not.

[@ghostofuchiha3807]

The long night was 10 hours, normal nights are 9 hours.

[@kchennessey8781]

Everyone: Well, The Last Jedi was the biggest disappointment ever. D&D: Hold my Starbucks

[@wgo523]

I loved the last Jedi. Best star war 🤷🏼‍♂️

[@ravenwhiteduck3158]

@@wgo523 nah, still empire

[@longclaw22-72]

I actually loved the Last Jedi

[@ariatauraso8771]

I love this comment so much.

[@longclaw22-72]

@Your Immortal Compagnion Its going to be controversial but I really enjoyed what they did with Luke. The idealistic hero who became a disillusioned and bitter old man was a good surprise for me. I'm also a big fan of Kylo Ren, he reminds me of Zuko from TLA. Now you have to know that Inwas never really a Star Wars fan before the new generation cam in.