George RR Martin will NEVER Finish A Song Of Ice And Fire

In this excerpt from Open Bar 13, we talk about the George RR Martin, procrastination and Winds of Winter's endless delays.

[@DavidBaronStevensPersonal]

He's like that player that never reaches end game because they get caught up in endless side quests

[@TheSchaef47]

The first time I played Wind Waker, I got kind of surprised that I had reached the endgame because I had powered through the story and because the dungeons are not traditional "Go to Dungeon 1, Dungeon 2, Dungeon 3" objectives, but are kind of baked into the storyline. So I felt like I had done maybe two dungeons and suddenly I'm at the glowy water. So at that point I decided this was my chance to get all the maps, explore all the islands, and get all the (major) loot. After the first pass on the islands and I'd gotten maybe 80% of everything, I just went, okay, I've seen enough, time to end this. Martin needs to stop trying to 100% his game and just go stab Ganon in the head already.

[@wavepool4501]

That was me with FFXIV. Even after I started skipping cutscenes, I still got burned out and never went back.

[@Dotalol123]

Nah he is more of a child that dropped the game because end boss is too hard... On a serious note he probably has some mental thing, like fear that he will die if he finishes it or fall to oblivion, lets be honest people have dumber disorders than this...

[@ARCtrooperblueleader]

Beautifully said.

[@theodorecole25]

He's "Skyriming" it😂😭

[@cl5470]

Anytime Geroge compares himself to or especially when he criticizes Tolkien, I want to slap the taste out of his mouth. At least Tolkien finished his epic saga, and many more books as well. He also fought in a world war, wrote part of the W section of the dictionary. Despite having a career teaching on top of that, he wrote multiple appendices to his books, including a comprehensive timeline of events. He even answered thousands of fan letters with questions about the lore, fleshing his story out further. Tolkien wrote a story that might be a little cliche at times (to modern readers) but was actually ahead of it's time in offering a hero character who was just a humble hobbit who overcame the forces of extreme evil by being himself. When Martin finishes his series, he can then whine about Aragorn's tax policy. And hey, maybe Tolkien made his story easier to complete by not ending every likable POV character's story arc with a horiffic death? But what would Tolkien know? He only perfected the genre after all.

[@Balandrus]

But, being subversive and killing off well-written, well-liked characters is the mark of good writing!

[@augusto4359]

tolkien's biggest project was the silmarillion, and he didnt finish...

[@augusto4359]

@@MrHarrystank what a waste of time writing this comment of yours...i didnt say martin is better than tolkien, I didnt compare their style or work in any way. I just said that tolkien didnt finish his work. and no, the silmarillion wasnt finished when tolkien died. Btw why do you think 'UNFINISHED tales' exist in the first place? LOL

[@arekpetrosian4965]

@@MrHarrystank Don't hold back, tell us how you REALLY feel. LOL And by the way, as someone who's read the works of both authors, NOT just watching bastardized adaptations of their work, I fully agree. Tolkien created languages, a world...he shaped a genre. He forged the path that others have followed. I suppose it could be illustrated as Tolkien building the apartment complex, and others moving in.

[@davidschneider9145]

@Baron Thundercunt Well, someone‘s pissed. But I definitely agree with your statement. Looking back on it, ASOIAF wasn’t all that great because I had the feeling that I‘d seen a lot of it already though often in other genres. He doesn’t have to offer anything really new to the fantasy genre and just tries to be „more mature“ by being edgier than his predecessors.

[@redeks7015]

"He can't say No to anything". He's been doing a fine job of saying "No" when it comes to finishing the series.

[@Attmay]

He said no to Weight Watchers multiple times.

[@TheMarlinlask]

It's more the blogs about "I'm half way, I got so much done should be this year" and 5 years later was that a lie?

[@mandaloretheultimate5832]

When you realize that both World Wars put together took less time than writing the Winds of Winter. (WW).

[@TrouvatkiDePercusion]

....holy shit....

[@RTU130]

O

[@TrouvatkiDePercusion]

@@Last_Watcher somewhere around there, yeah. That sounds about right.

[@ededdandeddytv5164]

@@Last_Watcher yeah this dude George don’t give af 😭💀

[@___David__]

@@Last_Watcher Tolkien only wrote 3 complete proper fantasy books in his lifetime: The Hobbit, The Lord of the Rings and The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. He then published a few other small tales and essays as well as a Middle English Vocabulary (his first book but it's not fantasy). HOWEVER, he did write A TON of lore for Middle-Earth. So much that his son Christopher had enough material to keep publishing his father's writings until his death at age 95. The Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales, etc.. all of that was the result of Tolkien' son's work compiling the writings of his father. Well, guess what? I bet GRRM doesn't have any of that. Starting with children.

[@phillyphilly_lii6441]

There’s no excuse for George. He literally gets to know EXACTLY what the fans hated and loved at the end of the show and can now write with hindsight that every author in history would have KILLED for.

[@EvilDoresh]

Too bad he'll never make use of this amazing knowledge.

[@purefoldnz3070]

this isnt even the last book. lol

[@williamparcell9197]

I'm honestly relieved I never started the series. I tend to not start unfinished series just in case, thankfully I fought off the temptation.

[@bulbafett5001]

@@williamparcell9197 Some other good book series to check out instead: Dies The Fire, Malazan, and if you want something wholesome with your fantasy adventure, Redwall.

[@Hydrogoniise]

@@bulbafett5001 Redwall is super underrated in my opinion. Loved the mature and dark themes juxtaposed against the cutesy little Forrest animals when I was a kid.

[@maxoutrage7270]

At this point he should just call it “A Song of Laziness and Procrastination.”

[@johnmcternan4157]

Forget A Dream of Spring, he dreams of an early death to avoid writing it.

[@maxb2021]

Yeah, except songs also usually have an ending lololol

[@MrJC1]

You know... we can all split hairs for the rest of time about just where the tv series went wrong... at least it had an ending. Lmao. Smh. Unbelievable.

[@brontosa5351]

More like half a song about it.

[@barbiquearea]

Or instead of The Winds of Winter, it should be Winter is Not Coming

[@vellichor7676]

2011: Shortly after the release of A Dance with Dragons, Martin said, "the last two books will go a little quicker than this one has". After all, A Dance with Dragons released a full five years over deadline, so the assurance that the final two books would be written more quickly was comforting news. 2012: Saying he had about 400 pages written, Martin said, "The sixth volume won’t be released in 2012 or in 2013. I really look forward to publishing it in 2014, but I am really bad for predictions.” 2015: Martin apologized for his previous estimate of 2014, which was missed; that said, he promised that he'd rethink his previous intention to not attend ComicCon if he succeeded in finishing The Winds of Winter beforehand. This gave fans hope: clearly, he believed it was possible to finish the novel before ComicCon. He must nearly be done with it! Also this year, Martin said the new goal was 2016, which would have the book releasing alongside Season Six of the TV show. 2016: "Look, I have always had problems with deadlines," Martin wrote in a blog post. 2017: No book yet. When a fan asks for an update, Martin, seemingly irritated, responded with that he believed it would be out that year, in 2017. Later that year he posted on his blog: “I am still working on [The Winds of Winter], I am still months away (how many? good question), I still have good days and bad days, and that’s all I care to say. … I do think you will have a Westeros book from me in 2018.” 2018: A Westeros book was released. It was Fire and Blood, not The Winds of Winter. Dude even began opining about the possibility of never finishing his books, saying: "Many many people invest their time into works without endings. F. Scott Fitzgerald never finished The Last Tycoon, Charles Dickens never finished Edwin Drood, Mervyn Peake never finished Titus Alone, yet those works are still read.” 2020: Martin had these comments when, again, giving an update on The Winds of Winter. "I wrote hundreds and hundreds of pages of The Winds of Winter in 2020. The best year I’ve had on WOW since I began it. Why? I don’t know. Maybe the isolation. Or maybe I just got on a roll. Sometimes I do get on a roll. I need to keep rolling, though. I still have hundreds of more pages to write to bring the novel to a satisfactory conclusion. That’s what 2021 is for, I hope. I will make no predictions on when I will finish. Every time I do, assholes on the internet take that as a 'promise,’ and then wait eagerly to crucify me when I miss the deadline. All I will say is that I am hopeful." 2021: Referencing how much work he'd accomplished during the year, Martin said this: “Let me say [once] again, yes, I am still working on Winds of Winter.” He noted that he'd made less progress on the novel in 2021 than in 2020, though was quick to point of that "less" did not mean "none". 2022: As of writing this, March 26th, 2022, there is no release date of any kind of the novel. He is 2,345 days over his original publisher-set deadline of October 2015. Martin turns 74 this year. In the event that he succeeded in publishing The Winds of Winter by 2023, and if the writing process on A Dream of Spring went similarly to The Winds of Winter, he could be as old as 85 when it released in 2034.

[@Ken-df8cp]

He's gonna die before he finishes it. FUCK.

[@wumpusrat]

I seem to remember back in 2019 or 2020 him saying that he'd have it done before a certain big convention, and that if he didn't, fans could hold his feet to the fire about it. When that came and went, he got snippy and aggravated when they did exactly what he told them to do.

[@jspotter89]

Can you imagine the gall it takes for a person in his position to decry "assholes on the internet" for breaking his balls on the release date of TWOW? A project he strongly hinted at releasing at least three to five times in the last decade, only to fail to deliver every single time. Like the dude can do what he wants, I have no issues with that. He can not finish ASOIAF and that would be perfectly fine with me, as it's pretty obviously what he wants. Just cut the shit, man. Be honest. And don't fucking call your fans "assholes on the internet" and famously flip them off in interviews because they care. I used to wonder why GRRM associated with garbage people like Linda Antonsson for World of Ice and Fire and other stuff, and now I realize, it's because he's one too.

[@kesterrustad7115]

Glad I never picked up the first book 👍

[@MrRjhyt]

@@kesterrustad7115 I picked up the first book a nice hardback in the nineties... Loved it, but didn't want to start another series, as it came out. Feels like a dodged a bullet. It was intriguing, but I was still reading Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time, and it just felt like too much of a time sink.

[@ponchomkr]

I agree with Andre’s theory that George has written himself into such a deep hole with the dozens of characters with their own subplots that he doesn’t know how to get out of it. I get needing an expansive world with intricate plot lines and immersive lore but when you set the precedent of “this is the main story, this story has a time table, and this story requires an eventual arrival to that point” you have to follow through.

[@Korkzorz]

I watched something similar, "The winds of winter doesn't fit in Winds of Winter" or something like that. Showing how even with a minimal amount of pages per POV character, there is just no way it can fit in to one book.

[@SRCepTer]

Let the walkers do their jobs. All those subplots will have a predictable ending.

[@bighands69]

His large volume of characters are what makes the story possible. Without that is no story.

[@Korkzorz]

@@bighands69 It's a catch 22 then.. I would suggest finding the video I mentioned

[@bighands69]

@@Korkzorz Large format story with lots of characters is not for everybody.

[@kitcat7538]

As usual, André Einherjar has the best take on things. I completely agree with him that the characters are no longer writing the story for the author and he has lost his connection with them. Martin has no idea where to take the story from where he left it off, and he is afraid to try.

[@necromax13]

If this were the case he wouldn't have a 3000 page manuscript.

[@MannyNamiro]

Yeah, it's like coming back to a years old save in a long ass RPG - you've no idea who the hell half the characters are and what the hell you were doing.

[@kitcat7538]

@@necromax13 😂 He doesn't have any manuscript at all. 🤣

[@parcaleste]

Please tell me why I read this in Andre's voice?

[@necromax13]

@@kitcat7538 well, that's what he says. At this point it's allegations vs whatever the think about them.

[@TheBelieveit1]

It's often quite funny to see Martin try to cast shade on Tolkien's works when he can't even get his own shit together. I mean seriously. He considers it a productive year when he even finishes a couple pages worth of a chapter in a year, Tolkien was laying the foundations of his legendarium while fighting in the trenches of WW1. Yah can't even compare the two.

[@stoneymahoney9106]

Epic Rap Battles of History did Tolkien vs Martin, it's the most one-sided demolition in the entire series - and Tolkein didn't even need to bring up the fact he actually finished his books.

[@worldcomicsreview354]

@@stoneymahoney9106 Well there were unfinished side-stories, but he did finish the "main event" as it were.

[@stuartburns8657]

@@worldcomicsreview354 Tolkein obviously died, so perhaps can be forgiven for not finishing the other stuff ;)

[@Crosmert]

So true, the shadow that Tolkien casts is so annoying to him, you can see it in the interviews.

[@Crosmert]

@@stuartburns8657 Tolkien was confident that he was going to live till 95, at least, like his father did, but he didn't.

[@EatWave]

Kentaro Miura died suddenly while writing his magnum opus at roughly 50 years of age whereas GRR Martin has produced less output in more time and will likely die of old age without having finished his great work either.

[@Commandosoap777]

This isn’t a 1:1 comparison as Miura had assistants and each berserk chapter had like what half , maybe a 1/3 Of the text a ASOIF chapter does? A lot of berserk’s best moments was through visuals. Either way berserk is a master piece regardless of an ending and so is AOSIF tho it’s not as good imo

[@knarftahw]

The difference is I cared about Miura.

[@alessandroofthemediterranean]

RIP Miura.

[@TheUnseenPath]

At least it’s done.

[@ericfaz1427]

At least Kentaro Miura had passed along the ending/totality of Berserk to Kouji Mori. Has Martin passed along the ending?

[@thembelamawelela9821]

The fact that GRRM likely hasn't even started writing a Dream of Spring when he hasn't finished Winds of Winter at 74 years of age, tells you all you need to know about A Song of Ice and Fire. It will never be finished. It's as simple as that.

[@mbern4530]

He could have told the story in 3 books. There is so much filler in the books, with the last 2 books being little more than filler where nothing happens.

[@aqrxv]

Somehow I never believed GRRM would use the "A Dream of Spring" title in practice. It just doesn't really fit with the other books.

[@JoseLopez-hs3yw]

From what I know, he has like 1,600 pages, or something like that I read like 2 years ago. But, I think that he doesnt really feels it right inside him

[@hogari]

Well, that isn't completely accurate. Surely he has plenty of chapters ready for Dream of Springs already, after he has completed WoW and decided on the correct "stoppage" for each character story line between books. That being said, the situation was the same with WoW when Dance was finished. I also have completely given up on Dream of Springs, it will never see the light of day. There's still a sliver of hope for WoW, and I do hope he gets it done before it's too late. SoiaF is still probably my favorite fantasy book series after all.

[@HerculesBallsInc]

One never knows. He could finish everything easily by writing, "And then winter chokes off the entire world and everyone dies. The end." He could likewise develop a laser-like focus and figure out the three chapters that have to be written. He could abandon everything else and pump out a book a year. But will he? I wouldn't bet on it.

[@Rekaert]

When everyone was raving about the books, I took a look and decided then and there, if he finishes the last book, I'll start reading the first book. There's no way I'm committing to a series that long when the end is very much in doubt. I remember him asking Stephen King during an interview how he wrote so fast (and prodigiously). King answered simply that when he is writing, he writes every day, including Birthdays, and doesn't allow himself to shut down until he has a certain amount completed. 2k words off the top of my head. George looked at him like he'd just invented fire.

[@putraduha3176]

it's worth it even without the end

[@darylwilliams7883]

Don't bother to start. It goes off the rails toward the end and the last novel is positively painful.

[@seandlax9]

The sad part is that for an author, 2000 words is nothing. 4 pages. For an author that's maaaaybe an hour of work, 20 minutes if they know where they're going with whatever section they're working on.

[@wumpusrat]

@@seandlax9 20 minutes? No. That's hyperbole. In order to crank out 2000 words in 20 minutes, you'd have to be writing at a constant speed of 100 wpm, with ZERO pauses. Back when I used to write a lot, getting 4 pages done that you're actually happy with usually takes several hours, because you're not just copying down a script that's in front of you. You're having to stop and consider characters' motivations, what they'd say or do in a particular situation, etc. And then when you commit it to the page (or the text editor, these days), you'll still go back and re-read what you wrote, change things around, etc.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

@@seandlax9 Who the heck write 500 words pages? For most writers 2000 words would be more like six pages. And from personnal experience(yes, I'm just a teen writing as a hobby, not a professionnal author, but still), 2000 words takes several hours, I agree with WumpusRat there.

[@The_Sisyphean]

Martin’s magnum opus “Unfinished Tales”. Well done, George.

[@kakumeikeahi]

A modern day Canterbury tales

[@RoninDave]

@@kakumeikeahi at least Canterbury Tales wasn't promising some incredible ending everything was building towards

[@MarisuSedai]

Fans of the Show: “If you think this has a happy ending, you haven’t been paying attention.” Fans of the Books: “If you think this has an ending, you haven’t been paying attention.” Fans who also read WoT: “There are no endings.”

[@horushyperion76]

WoT?

[@MarisuSedai]

@@horushyperion76 Wheel of Time. The author was a friend of GRRM’s, and there was a lot of crossover between the fan bases in the 90’s and early 2000’s.

[@nobleskywalker4639]

after season 7 of GOT and found our season 8 was the end I bit the bullet and read all the books available up before season 8 premiered. After reading the books I got into severe arguments with my friends about the no brainer Dany as a villain turn( which is more obvious in the books) their argument was that the series was about her from day 1 how she rises above every tragedy in her life. I'm like you guys really didn't pay attention. Now hindsight is 20/20. Now Martin has cold feet and is focusing on other things. Well Elden Ring is a cool game at least

[@ncrvako]

@@horushyperion76 world of tanks.

[@mousemetal1679]

@@nobleskywalker4639 Yep, Dany´s fall into insanity was obvious from the series. The final part was just too rushed in the last season. There should have been like two seasons of her and Jon bonding, while she also starts to show more and more disturbing behavior in front of him. It would make Jon´s decision to kill her much sadder. The whole last season was too rushed, too many things ended too quickly.

[@xel1673]

Martin is a self-admitted gardener type of writer. In my own reading and writing experiences, when I've encountered writers who lean more heavily to gardening and do very little if any work in the architect-side of writing to have some kind of a map to get the story/character naturally get to where they need to end up, it bites them later. They generally start out strong with a story, because there is so much freedom to grow. It's all knew and so many pathways of your own imagining to take. However, as the story progresses and choices are made, the paths ahead become more limited and, without ret-cons or diminishing the quality of your work by just making things happen in very unnatural ways for the plot, you are bound to the past and you can't go backward. You no longer have the freedom you had before and this often frustrates gardeners. Martin could have started with a general idea of a character and plot and where he wanted things to end up, but gardeners who work in the moment and let their muse run wild let the story and characters just flow instead. For all we know, he killed Snow on a moment of passionate inspiration and he loved the idea. In that moment it was exactly what he thought was right for the story. But now he's been distracted and that passion has cooled. Plus, in mulling it over for years now, he could have realized the idea has hindered where he originally wanted to go. Or perhaps killing Snow was always part of the plan, but he has thought of things he wished he'd done instead (better ideas he is now more passionate about), but he's trapped because of what has already been published and can't be easily ret-conned. I'm just using the Jon Snow situation as an example. It could be anything. Like his original idea of how to finish the story is something that he fears won't fly in present social/political climates and he doesn't have the nerve to finish it. Or his end idea is no longer appealing and he can't think of anything else with the previous history he's already written for the previous stories. Writing could just give him anxiety or frustration and it became not fun. Gardeners thrive on the fun and struggle when it becomes "work". Furthermore, the longer he is removed from the story and those characters, the more passion and connection he loses with them. I could see him struggle to get into their mindset again or care about their ends. Gardeners can fall out of love with characters. Especially after 10 years and Martin changes as a person. Whatever the reason, I think something has made writing ASOIAF difficult or unpleasant or simply uninteresting to him. It doesn't get the fire going anymore. I've found gardener writers to be those who dislike limitations and being beholden to anything. And, unfortunately, an established published past they can't just make up to suit their new ideas because the past they've written is already in stone is like an albatross around their neck. It's also far enough into the story he can't add new characters to spice things up for him. Starting new stories is always much more enjoyable for gardeners. If he can explore writing ideas he is passionate about that he can't weave into ASOIAF, then he is free to add them to new projects. So that, I can easily imagine, makes new stuff all the more appealing to him. He could also just be very lazy and, now that he is at the half-way point, needing to bring things together, doing tough stuff like linking all the chains he's created to the conclusion for each storyline/character arc he wants is too much architecture and it creates writer's blocks.

[@joelrasdall7662]

"Whatever the reason, I think something has made writing ASOIAF difficult or unpleasant or simply uninteresting to him." My pet hypothesis here is that the ending to the show was pretty much exactly the ending that he had in mind, and the fan backlash was pushing not against D&D but against his own structural issues with the ending. I fully believe he meant for (SPOILERS) King Bran the Broken to be the final ending, and it's just not a great ending. Like I said, it's my own personal pet hypothesis, based on nothing more than reading the books and then following (not exactly "watching) the show to see what would happen. Maybe the problem with the shows past the point the books weren't published any more is also a problem with the books that haven't been written yet: he's gardened himself well outside the realm of recovery...so now what? Sheesh, why NOT go do other stuff, if the ending he had in mind went that poorly?

[@brontosa5351]

@@joelrasdall7662 But he said it yes, that it's his ending, he just doesn't know how to get there without giving us what D&D game us, and that is crap.

[@bighands69]

Gardener type? What sort of nonsense is that.

[@MrLethalShots]

@@bighands69 It's what Martin has described as his own writing style.

[@shadow_realm47]

@@joelrasdall7662 Maybe his confidence is low too, cus how the show was perceived in the end. At first the show and the books were critically acclaimed but not popular. When the show was popular it was no longer critically acclaimed and eventually it was rubbish. Perhaps George is afraid that the books will be rubbish too and the money as well as adulation from the side projects will stop coming in. On the other hand those side projects are killing the main project, no ASOIAF fan will in their right mind recommend the books to anyone new these days.

[@MillenionSweeper]

The only thing that he can and has said “No” to is finishing the novels.

[@Raximus3000]

I think he has a contract with his publishers. If says anything like this, they go to court.

[@christianclark347]

@@Raximus3000 Yeah, he can't say it outright. He's probably stringing them along hoping he dies first at this point.

[@BioHunter1990]

Well, he’s certainly never said no to a buffet table.

[@4dstellatedhypercube558]

watch someday he'll come out and say "here it is the foreword to winds of winter..............written completely by hodor"

[@NelsonStJames]

If actions speak louder than words, then he doesn't have to verbally say anything at this point. His fans should have already gotten the message.

[@MrBellsa61]

George can do what the fuck he wants with his time. He just needs to admit that he's never going to finish the series so the fans can move on with their lives.

[@daveclemons75]

Dude, they can do that RIGHT NOW. Nobody needs "permission".

[@shannonbutler-williams7261]

@@daveclemons75 Nope, and I'm definitely not buying or watching any of his prequel or spinoff nonsense. I WISH everyone else would and I could get the satisfaction of seeing how snarky he became when there was no market for him. He'd still be rich, but no one showing up for panels at all, no viewership on HBO, no attention.

[@Lucitaur]

'GoEoRgE cAn Do wHaT thE FuCk hE wANtS wiTH HiS TimE.'

[@jeremyb3991]

@@Lucitaur I don't see the point in berating an old man for trying to enjoy the short time he has left on this earth. The dudes an obese man in his 70s, he's not going to live long enough to finish the series now even if he genuinely wanted to so he might as well enjoy the fruits of his labors while he can.

[@Lucitaur]

@@jeremyb3991 He owns his fans to finish the books. If it weren't for the fans, there wouldn't be any fruit for him to enjoy.

[@countmarkula1993]

George is like an honors student that goes to college and starts skipping classes to party 24/7. And we're left to the role of the disappointed parent.

[@mdphdetc5853]

Reading Martin's other books, particularly Fever Dream, that are made me realized that he is fantastic at character and set up, but has no idea how to end a book. Even these "finished" books end up dropping ideas and plot lines all over the place. He cut is teeth as a T.V. writer back in the era where the point was to just go on and on until the network canceled you, and I don't think he ever got over that.

[@HarryBuddhaPalm]

I think most writers that make it up as they go along tend to have really terrible endings. That's a common criticism of Stephen King's. They don't know where they're going and they don't care. They just write until they want to stop.

[@mdphdetc5853]

@@HarryBuddhaPalm Agree. King is better at set up, and is a very technically solid writer, whereas Martin relies more on character, but neither seem to know where the story is supposed to go. Great for TV and series of movies that just go on and on (didn't Martin cut his teeth on the Beauty and the Beast TV series?) but terrible when you are hoping things will actually resolve.

[@Commandosoap777]

A storm of swords literally has one of the best endings in a fantasy book lmao can Tolkien fans even read

[@HarryBuddhaPalm]

@@Commandosoap777 Can you use punctuation?

[@joannamarieart]

@@Commandosoap777 But that was just the ending of one book, not the ending of the larger story, which is much more important. Plenty of TV show seasons have a great season ending but not a good series ending.

[@Drathayus]

If only he had Brandon Sanderson's work ethic. That man is currently running a kickstarter to fund the *five* novels he wrote in two years during the lockdowns. The absolute madlad.

[@JoaniMaster]

He also finished the Wheel of Time after Robert Jordan passed away. Who knows, the way this is going he may also be the one to finish asoiaf

[@danielm.768]

@@JoaniMaster even though I enjoy Sardenson's work, as an aSOIaF fan, I don't think he would be a good choice to finish George's work. Their writing styles are really different, and even more so, their motivation and ideas for stories are diametrically apart. Martin has written an amazing story, but dark and cynical most of the times. Sanderson, in the other hand, is a devouted mormon. I don't think he can write tragedy and torture as well as George

[@bighands69]

Sanderson is an average writer at best and not one of his works even holds a candle to the likes of ASOIAF. When it comes to fantasy there is only Tolkien and Martin who have good writing. The rest are trashy pulp novels.

[@JoaniMaster]

@@bighands69 bees cant explain to flies that honey is better than dung

[@SoulSoundMuisc]

@@bighands69 Your opinion is your opinion. Frankly, I found Martin to be hot, hot garbage from the first book and never finished it.

[@steveouk90126]

The comet smacks into Westeros, killing everyone and everything. There, I finished it for everybody.

[@septimiusseverus343]

Thankyou. Well done.

[@Spitsworth]

Was a book fan years before the show. For a long time I was forgiving of George taking his time since he's clearly written himself into a corner by having too many plot lines. But jesus, it's been over ten years now and he has clearly given up. He has abandoned us. Fuck him, I think he owes us the last two books. Stephen King was taking a long time to finish his Dark Tower series. Then he had a near death experience where he was nearly killed in a car accident (got wrecked by a drunk driver and was severely fucked up in hospital for a long time) and he thought to himself "I really have to finish that series, my fans deserve it". The ending had mixed reactions, but I will always respect King for pushing out the last few books in just a few years. King may have gone insane on Twitter in the past few years but nobody can deny how insanely dedicated he has been his entire life to just sitting down and getting writing done.

[@qualityautismNoah]

that's also why i'm okay with King writing himself and his accident into the Tower novels. and of course he later wrote a Standalone Dark Tower novel (Wind Through the Keyhole), and seems open to maybe write one last book (Battle of Jericho Hill). Thing here is that this would just be a nice extra, since he finished his main story.

[@KrolKaz]

Kings books aren't as complicated as GOT. King makes books that house wives and prisoners enjoy, Martin writes books for true intellectuals, and they are very hard to please.

[@aerka0s760]

@@KrolKaz No, people reading it are for the most part not "intellectuals".

[@Spitsworth]

@@KrolKaz Martin writes for intellectuals? Lol bro, no offense but that is fucking cringe as fuck to say. He does not. He is pop culture disguised as high writing. I really like his writing but it's the truth. Martin likes to think of himself as belonging to the group of great fantasy writers, but he doesn't match up to the greats like Howard, Herbert, Tolkien. Not taking away from Martin, like I said I really enjoy his novels, but he isn't one of the legends. His takes on LOTR are also trash.

[@bobross1829]

The Dark Tower is the counterpoint to Martin. King clearly rushed through the last two books and most agree they were pretty terrible. I give him some credit for finishing after his brush with mortality but a slapdash, deus ex machina laden lazy ending in that case was as bad as Martin's no ending ever. King literally had the big bad, who was referenced in scores of books for decades, by a new character with a magic drawing pad who erases him. LOL That is pretty terrible. And that pretty much ended all the dark tower hype. The one movie crashed and burned and no one really talks about it anymore. He kind of killed his own series with those books.

[@JAEWST]

GRRM has procrastination down to an exact science. It's quite impressive really

[@HeyHEY-fg9rp]

Once he got the moolah and fame his motivation fell by the wayside.

[@JAEWST]

@@HeyHEY-fg9rp all jokes aside I'm beginning to think that the David and Dan butchered the ASOIAF's story in GoT made George lose motivation to continue the story but I hope I'm wrong

[@pogue6327]

I gave up on reading the ending after having bought "A Dance with Dragons" twice. Bought it and read it when it came out...yeeeears later, my local book store had a bunch on display...I had mistaken it for the next book in the series. After reading the first few pages...I realized what happened.

[@behzad52002]

Oh man, my condolences, l feel robbed for buying it once,you must feel terrible.

[@naamadossantossilva4736]

@@behzad52002 You were robbed,that thing should be in Feast.

[@ralcogaming7674]

@@naamadossantossilva4736 that would be one thick book. That being said dance irritated me, I don't like getting the same scenes from others perspectives thats never how it worked before. Yet he had to here because he split up certain stories badly.

[@tam6753]

@@ralcogaming7674 I'm feeling silly right now, but which scene did we get to see from another perspective? It's been a few years now since I last read it..

[@septimiusseverus343]

@@tam6753 Jon and Sam at the Wall, before Sam departs for the Citadel.

[@NathanCassidy721]

George is the most productive procrastinator I’ve ever seen. He prides himself as the anti-Tolkien to which I say he succeeds as he made characters that nobody likes at this point, has the productivity of a slacktivist arguing on Twitter all day, and still hasn’t finished the series that made him famous. Whereless Tolkien has written some of the most iconic characters in fantasy, wrote his first book in addition to his teaching job and raising a family, and the only unfinished work he has is sequel to LOTR that he only stopped because he felt like it would undermine his work.

[@augusto4359]

the silmarillion is an unfinished job dude...and was tolkien's main project, he even said it himself.

[@trajanthegreat2928]

​@@augusto4359 He still finished the Lord of the Rings. He didn't get halfway, start working on the Silmarillion and then never finish the main series.

[@robertblume2951]

@@trajanthegreat2928 not really the same thing since he never published any of it .

[@augusto4359]

@@trajanthegreat2928 the silmarillion was he main series...he even said it. god, when his publisher asked him for a continuation of the hobbit, he didnt even want to write it, because that would consume much of his time and would "" compromise"" the silmarillion. Humphrey-Carpenter's did the best tolkien biography, you can see that later on his life, tolkien started to get bitter, for knowing that he would probably die before finishing his main work. So, yes he did exactly what you said he didnt: started the wilmarillion (his main work) stoped for writting the hobbit and lotr, and ended up not finishing his main work. Christopher himself said it, that after lotr, his father had to make A LOT of changes in the stablished lore of the silmarillion, and it ended up being 'an impossible task'.

[@storm6125]

@@augusto4359 yes but he knew when to say no, he new when to stop and not get people hopes up!

[@TensaZangetsu1200]

Winds of Winter is one thing. Dream of Spring is *definitely* not ever happening.

[@jdsartre9520]

George should end it with a 'choose your own adventure' where he has 5 different endings and you get to pick the one you like best. Mine? Sam carrying Euron on his shoulders, they running around shooting fireballs and ice lightning at everyone.

[@KrolKaz]

That would be kind of cool ngl.

[@SirCanuckelhead]

@@KrolKaz Name checks out for liking this type of thing. Stoked for your young centers, the perfect core to start building around. The Kraks should not feel bad and be patient, Vegas was a one off and they will be interesting to see if they ducked it up or not.

[@marychocolatefairy]

My own speculation on why he lost his mojo: We know Tyrion is his favorite character, and he used to say that Tyrion was the easiest to write. It can be argued that Tyrion was George's voice in the series. But then, after the story became darker and various bad things happened to (and by) Tyrion, Martin talked about how much more difficult it had gotten to write him. I'd imagine that's at least part of the problem. He doesn't enjoy writing his favorite character anymore. And another issue is, he might not have much interest in dark topics as when he started writing. His own life has gotten much better since the series became so popular with the tv show, and so it's gotten harder for him to relate to both what the story has become in general and Tyrion in particular.

[@shannonbutler-williams7261]

He could adjust his end strategy (since it won't come anyway) and have Tyrion finally rise to acknowledged greatness as the hand of the Queen who is actually respected. Good reconciliation with Jaime too, since presumably his plan for the character arc wasn't "default to the first forty pages of Game of Thrones".

[@ch355_]

i agree with you, and had not thought about your point, but it makes perfect sense. the same thing happens with musicians, even really talented bands like metallica, they have a hard time writing heavy aggressive (yet technically well composed) music as famous middle-aged millionaires like they did when they were teenaged nobodies.

[@superanimegamer01]

That makes a lot of sense. I'm glad I'm not the only one who hates what he did to Tyrion.

[@jillbill7752]

Weird to say, when the prereleased chapters are some of the harshest and most brutal, specifically Aerons chapter. Euron is a genuine beast lol. But I think it was released in 2016 so maybe

[@jillbill7752]

Actually I just thought about how light hearted duck and egg is comparatively and you’re probably right.

[@Acdrop1]

I think Andre's explanation is probably the most true. He's talked about how The Armaggedon Rag being a commercial failure made him quit being a writer and become more of a T.V writer. I think the showrunners of the original series saying fuck it and rushing to end it has caused a massive blow to George's plan. George had given them the major plot beats to how the series would end in case he died before they finished the series. Upon seeing how badly it was executed and the reaction from the fans, I wonder if he has a lot more done then he let on and he's just doing a posthumous release so he doesn't have to see the reception of it.

[@gpcovenant]

But the problem was not the major beats. It’s everything in between from the forgetting of numerous plots, to the destruction characters, to how plainly stupid everyone got. None of that is George.

[@Acdrop1]

@@gpcovenant I agree with you, I just wonder how much of that is lost in translation to him. Imagine you’re sitting there trying to continue writing to get to those major beats knowing so many people are going to criticize the hell out of it after the show. I think he has a major case of writers block due to the fear. I believe after the final episode aired he wrote a post about how he’s terrified that whatever he writes won’t be good enough now and that’s why he’s put it off for so long

[@zalamael]

@@gpcovenant Yeah, I believe that the story, once the source material was all used up, was written not by George, but by the woke hacks who mutilated the ending and turned it into a pile of shit (which happened around the same time everything else turned to woke shit). I mean, HBO has always been woke, but they were never openly blatant about it, and they wove the political bullshit in subtly, while still telling great stories. Come 2016, and that all changed, and not just with HBO, it happened across the entire spectrum of TV shows and movies ever since (with a few exceptions, such as The Expanse, or Better Call Saul etc). Almost as if it was intentional collusion. But that is just a conspiracy theory, like vaccine passports and mandatory vaccinations were in 2016 (oops). I also believe, that George is now hamstrung because of it, and he isn't allowed to contradict the TV ending. I do not believe for one second, that the ending of the TV series was what George had envisioned, I suspect he was overruled, and then used as a scapegoat (in the same way Rian Johnson and Kathleen Kennedy have been used to deflect blame away from Disney with The Last Jedi). We will never see Winds of Winter, and if we do, it will kill off the characters who weren't in the TV show (such as Victarion Greyjoy and Aegon Targaryen etc), and then align itself with how the TV show ended (and he might even turn Euron Greyjoy from a dark and sinister overlord with a long term plan on marrying Dany to get control of her dragons, into a grinning dipshit that came across more like a action movie villain). Anyway, fuck it, The Stormlight Archive is way better than Ice and Fire, so I can live without Winds of Winter, mostly because I can't be arsed to have to wade through Feast for Crows and Dance with Dragons again just to refresh my memory (as they were both shit compared to the first three).

[@mbryson2899]

"Armageddon Rag" says a lot about why he may be thinking "fuck it" about finishing ASOIAF. It was a great book, too. I know I wouldn't give a rat's ass to strew pearls for unappreciaive whining swine. He likely has enough wealth to last him a lifetime, and the legacy angle only resonates for narcissists.

[@frenchyoathbreaker4095]

Not only that but I think it's daunting for him cause he's not only a perfectionist but everytime he comes up with an idea, 10 more comes out. That is why there are so many characters in these books and so many plotlines. That was not the plan initinaly but the creative juice kept flowing and it got bigger and bigger. I feel that even if he finished TWOW, there would be ideas for 5 more books. The ASOIAF books have become a curse in a way.

[@cmc5394oparva]

Martin's main problem is that he got way too high on his own supply. Even as long as the first three books were, note that they were all published in a span of four years. Then he started doing the ComicCon circuit and found he enjoyed the attention that came with the books more than writing the books themselves. He lost whatever focus he had, got sidetracked with other projects, and the series went beyond his grasp. He's trying to start over by focusing on the Targaryans, but that's going to end up in the same place that Game of Thrones did.

[@trolleriffic]

I know this comment is really late but you make a really good point. It must be a hell of a lot easier to focus and write when you're a struggling nobody with not much else to do who is maybe also immersing themselves in their fictional world as a bit of an escape from the boredom or unpleasantness of everyday life.

[@dstar222]

Totally agree with what you said. Call jk Rowling whatever you like but at least she always finished her books in time even in a span of two or three years each. She would make some appearances here and there but for the rest she learned to say NO till she finished her work.

[@nebiros_at9473]

I'm just reminded of Glen Cook's take on writing. "“Write. Don't talk about writing. Don't tell me about your wonderful story ideas. Don't give me a bunch of 'somedays'. Plant your ass and scribble, type, keyboard. If you have any talent at all it will leak out despite your failure to pay attention in English."" I'll be honest, I burned out on the series long before the show was even a thing. I picked up a pre-order of Feast for the Crows and it's been sitting on my shelf since getting it, since it had been so long I wanted to re-read the series and... the magic wasn't there. I ended up going back and re-reading The Black Company and A Mote in God's Eye and...

[@thomasdelaney4898]

In the 18 years it has taken GRRM to write the past two ASOIAF books, Brandon Sanderson singlehandedly penned 12 hefty bricks in his Cosmere meta-series, including a complete trilogy, quadrilogy and four Stormlight books, which are about 1200 pages in length and structured individually as a mini-trilogy. He also wrote the final three books in the Wheel of Time and has produced god knows how many novellas, spin offs, side-projects, non-Cosmere books and graphic novels. If GRRM feels he can't finish ASOIAF because he's stuck, lost interest or simply no longer has the will or ability, you'd think he'd nominate somebody to pick up the torch out of respect for his life's work. No disrespect to the man, but his strategy of "it's coming, honestly, I promise, it's coming, I'm really working on it, honestly, soon, believe me, I'm working really hard" has killed interest in the series and generated so much bad will against him. All he has to do is be honest that he can't finish it. Again, with respect, A Feast for Crows was mostly filler and A Dance with Dragons was 1000 pages of dead ends, new side characters and diversions from the actual main plot, which reinforces what Andre was saying about GRRMs inability - for whatever reason - to resolve the main story. My own view is that he blew his load far too early in book 3 with the Red Wedding and death of several key Lannisters. To me, so much of the tension, intrigue and simple buy-in that had been generated left the scene like a fart in a gust of wind.

[@purefoldnz3070]

wow Brandon Sanderson has written a shit ton of books I've never heard of.

[@thomasdelaney4898]

@@purefoldnz3070 Yeah he's a good chap

[@nydarkfern]

This is what everyone fails to understand: HE DID FINISH IT!! he told D&D EXACTLY how to end the show, that's how he wrote the story's end. He literally is on video record saying that's how the story he wrote ends. And people HATED it, (because facebook told them to), so he was like why would I even waste my time writing all this out? That's how his story ends. He isn't going to change the end because Millennials freaked out and hit the outrage button, that's HIS STORY. Love it or leave it. But either way: live with it. I personally did not understand the outrage. the end fits right in with the rest of his wild ass world he built.

[@purefoldnz3070]

@@nydarkfern didnt he say the opposite to everything you said? lol Anyway who cares this IP is dead for me.

[@thomasdelaney4898]

@@nydarkfern Well, knowing the major plot points of your story and constructing a coherent story to connect and produce them in narrative format are two different things. I haven't seen much of the TV series so can't really comment on it.

[@lytalo]

A guy once analyzed his books showing how each one got longer and longer, the last two were actually started as one book but had to be split. George kept adding characters and sub plot so Winds is probably three volumes by now and he cannot cut it down. Older richer writers start to get staffs, he has one, probably they actually handle most of his work now days. Michener, Cussler, and now Sanderson are good examples of efficient teams. They put out some quantity of books.

[@MrVeps1]

Also, let's not underestimate the value of being able to write more than two pages in a single sitting. He's done himself no favours by expanding the scope of the project so much, but even writing 4, 5, 6 or 12 volumes would theoretically have been possible if he did like Sanderson and a) reviewed where he was spending his time and b) sat down and wrote a lot. Political intrigue might not need a set end point, but the end-of-the-world scenario North of the Wall should probably have been outlined and kept in a safe from the start of the project, so there are no excuses for not having a general outline of the end of the series.

[@steveouk90126]

Take out the descriptions of food, clothing, and heraldry and it'll shave out at lest 10% of the content.

[@DrLipkin]

@@steveouk90126 To 10% of the content, you mean.

[@Attmay]

@@MrVeps1 why not? He can eat two pizzas in a single sitting.

[@Grayto]

I wish one of his staff was an editor.

[@Caesim9]

I also personally think that grrm might be kind of "over" asoiaf. He started writing it 30 years ago, really, he started writing in 1991. And I imagine he created these characters out of an artistic intention, he had ideas that inspired him, things he wanted to explore ir express. But after 30 years I think he, as a person, might have changed so much that he just doesn't resonate with his original vision for the story anymore. We can kind of get a glimpse of it as A Feast for Crows is so different from the first three books, or all the new characters and pov's in A Dance with Dragons. I think at that point he was more vested in the new stuff he invented than the characters for his first three books. And that's why it's easier for him to do all these side projects: New settings, new characters, new ideas to explore and not stuck on ideas he had when he was 30 years younger.

[@Melanrick]

Yeah, but on other hand, he had 30 years to write it. It's enough to write 4-6 entire series of novels. He was always slow to write those books and it shows.

[@LordSluggo]

Turtles. The characters were inspired by stories he invented for his pet turtles as a child.

[@1978garfield]

@@LordSluggo Makes me wonder if his turtles were practicing incest and killing each other.

[@KrolKaz]

That's the thing, he's been trying to write the perfect ending for all these years and he simply cannot. He obviously doesn't have a plan, or hasn't figured out a good way to string it all together while still being true to his nihilistic self.

[@caseyhart4999]

I remember reading an article a few years ago basically saying you could fill an entire volume of asoiaf with how much George has written about the nfl on his blog. Was a really eye opening realization.

[@Astfgl]

It's classic procrastination behaviour. I'm pretty sure we're all familiar with how it works. Writing these books has become a huge responsibility and a chore and no matter what he writes it's never going to live up to expectations. That causes creative paralysis; I'm sure GRRM has a gigantic mental blockade against continuing the GoT story by now. So instead he goes off to chase anything shiny that comes across his path and says 'yes' to anything that sounds fun to him, just so long as it gets his mind off the idea of writing this book.

[@lordxmugen]

Honestly I think that's fine. He's 74 years old. He made his millions and got whatever he wanted out of the series he made. People angry at an old man who can't give them the ending they wanted were probably never going to get it anyway. If he's not interested or doesn't really have the ending that people would want, then I guess that's how it is, like it or not.

[@superanimegamer01]

Agreed. Because judging by Dunk and Egg and Fire and Blood, it's clear he still loves the world of ASOIAF and he still likes to write. He's just grown tired and frustrated with the main series which is so disappointing, because it started so wonderfully.

[@bighands69]

The books are finished long ago.

[@johnegan7622]

Gave up on George R Martin doing anything years ago. Even unsubscribed from all those GoT channels. But honestly, when I first heard about the tv series Game of Thrones and that the source books had not been finished, I reckoned this scenario would come to pass.

[@deep-fried-zombie699]

Same lol 😂

[@harbl99]

The _Finish the Book George_ parody blog gave up on the guy a decade ago now. There's no final book coming until after GRRM turns up his toes and Brandon Sanderson has a spare weekend.

[@Cl0ckcl0ck]

Yup, same here too. It's not that he's lost interest it's just that he doesn't have a clue how to put all the strings together. All these vanity projects are just excuses but not the cause. He finished real writing years before GoT became a smash hit.

[@petersonfamily6223]

Ditto....

[@neriumsuitedher]

@@harbl99 Sanderson would be a horrible fill in for George and he knows it. Daniel Abraham could do it tho.

[@Dharengo]

This is why stories need to be planned out. Ideally you'd write a story ending-first. And always have a hook ready to cut to the end once you feel you're running out of creative energy.

[@smithgdwg]

Sort of the reason the Disney Star Wars Movie failed. They had no idea where the story was going and just let the Directors do whatever they wanted. Basically writing themselves into a corner where they had to bring Emperor Palpatine back.

[@JarinCOD]

@@smithgdwg Maybe use the same director for all 3 movies ffs? Also George knows the ending, probably doesn't know how to reach it.

[@KingOfSciliy]

He did, but he then threw most of it out before even finishing AGOT: - Joffrey kills Robb in battle - Sansa bears Joffrey's child - Catelyn takes Bran and Rickon to the Wall to seek shelter with Jon - Daenerys begins her conquest of Westeros after coming out of the pyre with three dragons - Tyrion is in love with Arya, who is in turn in love with Jon Yeah, none of that stuck did it.

[@charlie172011]

Not necessarily, there are multiple examples of writing on the go done good. For some this is the way they do their best work.

[@Dharengo]

@@charlie172011 Those tend to be a different kind of story, and not some massive epic.

[@wafflingmean4477]

I loved Mauler's take on this. It's completely okay for GRRM to work on what he wants. And in my opinion, despite what many may think, GRRM owes us *nothing.* He does not owe us Winds of Winter. We haven't paid for it ahead of time. *HOWEVER,* if he doesn't want to finish Winds, then like Mauler said, GRRM ought to just come out and say it instead of leading people on for so goddamn long. Work on what you want George. Seriously it's okay. But stop lying to your fans. They are the real reason you are where you are. The least you can do is be honest with them.

[@MorgothBagluir]

exactly

[@KrolKaz]

This is a good lesson for ppl not to read books until the series isequel. It sucks reading a book and not knowing for a year or two what's going to happen in the sequal.

[@pepsiman7711]

I am sure his fans who have given him his entire career are owned nothing.

[@Nonamearisto]

For those who say "Tolkien never finished the Silmarillion", consider these two facts: 1. Tolkien was a full-time professor of linguistics at Oxford University while writing his books, for either most of the time he wrote them or all of it. He was already very busy one way or another. 2. He died before he finished writing everything. His son had to edit his remaining material together.

[@maliziosoeperverso1697]

And also, most importantly, _he finished LOTR_

[@Ensign_Cthulhu]

@@maliziosoeperverso1697 Yep. Hobbit and LOTR are the essentials. The Silmarillion would have been nice, but it's just icing on the cake. The books he DID finish are a complete story in themselves.

[@Nonamearisto]

@@maliziosoeperverso1697 That wasn't his only story. It was the main one, but there were others besides that and The Hobbit. Keep in mind that he did that while working full-time as a professor. He also had time to, among other things, translate Sir Gawain and the Green Knight to modern English and write a commentary on Beowulf.

[@sophieamandaleitontoomey9343]

Also another thing…he finished the main and most important part of the series. And he did it in less than ten years.

[@SamvedIyer]

Also, he in fact had many versions of the Silmarillion, as his son Christopher mentions in the documentary, "A Film Portrait of J.R.R. Tolkien". The bulk of it was already done. He just could not settle on a conclusion. In some versions, so far as I understand, it was supposed to be the Dagor Dagorath.

[@doublep1980]

Keep in mind: Winds of Winter isn't even the final book. There's another one, Dream of Spring, which is supposed to finish the story! .... meanwhile, Joe Abercrombie and Brandon Sanderson are cranking out quality fantasy books like crazy.

[@necromax13]

I've heard loads of things about Brandon Sanderson, I'm just hesitant to pull the trigger on one of his books. George Martin claims he has over 3000 pages for both his final books, combined, but that's to be proven, and if so, where the fuck is an editor to chop that shit and release it.

[@doublep1980]

@@necromax13 Sanderson's "Mistborn" Series is pretty cool. Haven't read more of his books though. BUT, the guy not only writes like a machine but also keeps his fans informed with regular updates on his work. And I'm not talking " uhhhh.. the book is coming guys..... " no he posts detailed updates about chapters, release dates etc.

[@gs4011]

@@necromax13 Steelheart had pretty interesting premise

[@f0rth3l0v30fchr15t]

@@doublep1980 Except for the 5 books he wrote without telling anyone about in the last 2 years, right? Like his writing or not, he's a machine.

[@mvicksdog]

@@doublep1980 stormlight archive is brilliant. He handled the end of wheel of time perfectly. And yeah, Mistborn was pretty cool. His magic systems are so well thought out, and interesting.

[@astrinymris9953]

I have a theory that George's planned ending involved one of the most hated elements from the 'Game of Thrones' ending: Mad Queen Daenerys torching her own subjects. Now, the main reason fans were outraged this development was more that Benioff and Weiss didn't lay the groundwork to build up to this plot twist in a credible way. If Dumb & Dumber had taken the extra seasons HBO was willing to pay for and shown Dany slowly losing her sanity and compassion... well, a lot of people still wouldn't have liked it anyway. See, fans have spent as long as 26 years seeing Dany as the Man on Horseback, or rather Woman on Dragonback, who's going to swoop in and make things right. We're invested in her as a certified Good Character, and don't want that ripped away from us. However, I've got to admit that it would be consist with GRRM's comments about his initial goals in writing ASOIAF and his no-character-is-safe storytelling to have Daenerys turn Dark Side. So if that's the case, I can 100% see how Martin has lost his motivation to finish the series knowing how much fans hated Dany's descent into madness. Just sayin'.

[@user-yc5um2pl5v]

That's a very interesting observation, thank you!

[@Turamwdd]

Dumb and Dumber at least finished the series, horrible as it ended up. That puts them ahead of Martin. Martin is the Dumbest of all.

[@cynicat74]

I had a similar theory, that the ending of the TV show is how GRRM wanted to end his book. Regardless of how much GRRM could handle the same ending, it's still going to be extremely daunting to see how much everyone hates what you have planned. I wouldn't be surprised if he decided to make a lot of rewrites, after the end of Game of Thrones.

[@splitatorium]

I get it now. Winds of Winter pertains to the long, cold wait for a sequel while a Dream of Spring is about the fans dreaming of a proper ending.

[@internetpleb4854]

What was Aragon’s tax policy. I don’t give a shit George can critique Tolkien all he wants but at least he knew how to finish a story provide enough detail to keep the reader enthralled while keeping them on the road from begging to end of the story then he give the appendices which provides greater details more lore at the end almost like a treat for the reader.

[@pacesettenbrino2065]

Aragorn's tax policy can be guessed from his character and what we know about his projects after the wars ended. Not so much in that of Martin.

[@juliogalindo9363]

And don't forget the songs, my friend.

[@DesignsByVector]

Why did you guys remind me of this? I cry every time i realize this series will never be finished. He should pass the torch on theres no issues in admitting defeat.

[@Raximus3000]

Just wait until he is dead, unless nobody cares anymore.

[@Ghiscari]

There are times I regret getting myself so invested and interested in this series, because I know at the end of the day it will never be finished and I will live in a perpetual state of unsatisfaction

[@petercofrancesco9812]

With George I've truly gone through the five stages of grief: Denial, Anger, Bargaining, Depression, and finally Acceptance. I think it's extremely unlikely he will ever finish the books. Many of the reasons were touched upon. My biggest issue with George is he never had the courage to say while I love GOT, I want to exploring other things in the years I have left on this earth.

[@HInc7647]

Yes same !!! He is too old to finish it - literally all the way through covid the one person I kept and ear out for was him so got hopeful again, just for a second that he was locked up, and he still couldn’t finish the current book. So it will never happen.

[@petercofrancesco9812]

@@HInc7647 Once he got rich and famous, he lost his ambition to finish the books. I think when he advised HBO on the ending, he was basically completing the books through the show. George wouldn't have let them finish the story if he had any intention of completing the books.

[@davidbroughall3782]

I think he started this hoping the ending would come to him. Clearly it hasn't and never will.

[@joreyn7656]

I totally agree with this. I think he's written himself into a corner and doesn't know what to do now so he keeps putting it off. He definitely will never finish it.

[@PoolKid75]

It's because he set up too many things. Should've just concentrated on advancing the main plot.

[@drthmik]

I think Gary is correct He WAS going to end the story the way that they did with the TV Show But when EVERYONE hated that ending he lost confidence in that path, Scrapped it, and now he can't continue

[@LembeckIsStaying]

Yes drthmik, the simplest answer is usually the correct one and I believe this is the case too.

[@stoneymahoney9106]

The ending he thought of is basically the TV ending, but properly written with attention to detail and good character work, not the fanfic bullshit version we got on TV. The problem is that the mounting complexity of the project has made actually writing that so daunting to the man that he's going to go down in history as the world's most successful procrastinator.

[@HoofHearted88]

George doesn't have a child. He has an aging wife. Who will be the person to keep Georges legacy alive when he does ultimately pass? The story as is isn't a complete story. If he doesn't finish it, he won't have a legacy. Maybe he's not interested in that, that's fine. But the story could have gotten a place in the all-timers list if he did care enough to finish it. Much like the show, his works will be forgotten not too long after he passes away without finishing the story. His original outline was for a trilogy. The story expanded, so he then thought he needed four books. It expanded more, so he then needed five. He skipped needing six books, so he told his publisher he needed seven. From the books we currently have, only the titles remain the same as his original plan for seven books. Feast was supposed to be a part of the fourth book, but the publisher needed the books split for practical reasons. So even though we're waiting for the sixth book, how much more does George really need to tell all of his story? Who knows. I wonder if he himself actually knows. As a reader (I've read the story three times now) I'm sick of not-knowing. I've been an active member of the online ASOIAF fandom, both on KZbin and westeros.org. But that statement a few weeks ago made me give up on that hobby. I'm fed up.

[@cl5470]

It will be remembered as a disaster and Martin will be remembered as a stereotype of a lazy, overweight and bitter neckbeard who got grouchy with fans rather than admit he was too self absorbed to care if he screwed over HBO, the entire cast and crew of the show, his publishers and the millions of fans who made him rich enough not to care. A cautionary tale of how not to manage your book franchise.

[@rhuanv]

He already told his wife and agents (I think) that no one could end the series if he died. At some point I believe he said he would not leave any notes for it. So yeah, a lot of pride involved.

[@bradcsuka5054]

Somebody get Brandon Sanderson on the line.

[@robertblume2951]

I've been telling people not to invest in the series since book 2. This kinda of story bloat has happened before but at least Robert Jordan wanted to finish his story but cancer took him first.

[@hyethga]

I read up to book 4. I liked the first three, but by book 4 I thought the story tarried for too long and I heard it was the same about book 5, so I never bothered to start-and thank goodness I didn’t. Just seems like a waste of time now.

[@theb3654]

If Winds of Winter is ever released that book is going to be thick AF. He needs to bring everyone together in this book and that's going to be a huge task considering everyone is scattered.

[@god-of-war-fan]

@Bla Bla god when it releases every single fan is gonna cry tears of joy

[@cynicat74]

@@god-of-war-fan If* Why do you do this to yourself lol

[@god-of-war-fan]

@@cynicat74 *sigh* true

[@strangestecho5088]

Last update was something like 1700 pages total with around 1200 pages done, which probably means another book split, but he won't bite the bullet on publishing the first half because he wants the freedom to go back and rewrite entire character arcs on a whim.

[@god-of-war-fan]

@@strangestecho5088 he's gonna make it

[@salami155]

I read the first book in 1997. Years went by and I read part of the 2nd book. Discovered there still wasn't an ending to the story back in the early 2000's so I set it aside for later. Over 20 years later and I still stand by my decision lol.

[@MegaSpideyman]

I can't blame you.

[@megamovieman101]

You read the first book in the year I was born, now I’m frigging 24 going on 25. Martin, what are you doing...

[@salami155]

@@megamovieman101 damn man this comment makes me feel old lol

[@ilovecokeslurpees]

Meanwhile, Brandon Sanderson wrote not one but 5 extra books in quarantine, is finishing up book book 5 of his major epic series pretty much on time, finished book 4 during beginning of quarantine, kept up KZbin, consulted on a TV show until the producers wanted to take it off the rails and stopped asking him stuff during qurantine, and signs like a thousand book covers every bloody podcast. Martin can't even write one book.

[@mellowmoodify]

Brandons work ethic,writing, and dedication to fans is off the charts, by far my favorite author.

[@arturzinurov4781]

Are they any good tho? Not asking as a dig just legitimately interested

[@Silver-Sliver]

I'd like to know if they're worth the time too. Digging into truly good fantasy is glorious.

[@elezraita]

Brandon’s storytelling is amazing. He doesn’t have the most compelling prose, in my opinion. His style is straightforward and easy to understand, but it’s not flowery. Some people like that though. He is a storyteller, first and foremost. His characters are interesting and his plots are poignant. I think he is also a master of pacing, which is often a lost art. I would say that this is true more and more with his later books, but improvement is to be expected when one writes 4000 words per day consistently over 20 years, or whatever.

[@Robban.D.Jonsson.]

He's not exactly in his seventies though.

[@johnwright1447]

I lost faith in George RR Martin after the 2015 Hugo awards, where he made it clear that he regarded writing as a political act rather than an artistic one. He thought he could write a nihilist version of Lord of the Rings but better than JRR Tolkein. With the ending looming, he now sees, I suspect, that he cannot. To write a properly artistic ending, he would have to betray his philosophy. And if he writes as his philosophy dictates it would not be a properly artistic end. So he's trapped.

[@crazysilly2914]

They both have ‘RR’ in their names...

[@max8m1]

I think the Malazan series tackles nihilism and feelings of powerlessness, despair and lack of meaning quite well. But it does so by contrasting it with the human talent of adapting to hardships, gallows humor and spots of genuine brightness and wholesomeness.

[@krishkrish8213]

Being a political writer and an artistic writer aren't mutually exclusive

[@max8m1]

@@dacedruss I agree that the whole world gets very confusing and convoluted at time. Also, to my knowledge the books actually started out as lore for tabletop campaigns Eriksson wad playing, so it makes sense it still feels that eay at times. I think it was the characters that carried the series for me. Karsa Orlong, Fiddler, the old caravan guard tiger guy (can't for the life of me remember his name right now), sergeant Hellion and so many more, I enjoyed them a lot. But I can totally see why many people don't like the series

[@krystofthepolishguytalksan310]

Wait are you trying to tell us that the crappy show ending was GRRM?

[@NickMachado]

I've been saying this for 2-3 years now. Since 2015 I had been checking Georges blogs and other websites every month and after about 5 years of hearing "it's almost done and will be out next year" I gave up. George clearly has written himself into a corner and can't figure out how to finish the story. I wish he would just admit it instead of constantly telling us he is only working on TWOW and blowing past deadlines/promises he has given

[@khyrodon]

I work 40 hours a week, do overtime whenever asked, and I’ve still found the time to write over 500,000 words of fanfiction across two years. One day I hope to become a full time writer, earn a living off my original stories and characters. My work will never be as popular or descriptive as Martin’s but at least I know I won’t leave my audience hanging for a decade between novels. I respect them too much for that.

[@legrandliseurtri7495]

Wow, using your writing speed on fanfiction is honestly a bit of waste. Go for an original story, you'd be able to finish a good one quite quickly! In the last two years, I've written only about 75k, and I only have school to deal with, so.

[@DannyMexen9]

You actually don't know that. Good luck.

[@RevantheBlack]

now i'm curious, what stories have you written?

[@shannonbutler-williams7261]

Write a really decent ending to his books, change Jon's name to Christian and Dany's name to whatever that chick's name was, satisfy fans *and* roll around in giant piles of money.

[@FlyingFocs]

Dude... I wrote a 64k first draft over 9 months last year, and I considered THAT an accomplishment. Your dedication is amazing!

[@lordmida]

I came to this conclusion years ago and it's one of the reasons why I never bothered with GoT and SoIaF, even though I saw most of the first season and read the actual book Game of Thrones. Martin has been working on this for over two decades, he still needs to write at least one book after the one he's working on now. After so much time and people wanting you to work with them on other stuff, I can imagine he's just burned out. You can criticise him for getting into this position, but it's probably more realistic to accept the series as unfinished.

[@Raximus3000]

There are ways to finish it, ghost writers being the obvious one, otherwise the franchise is dead and quite frankly a monument to what can happen if you throw away artistic and business integrity.

[@wojak-sensei6424]

It won't be the first good piece of media we have to bury in a pauper's grave. That just means that another highly-detailed low fantasy novel is in demand, and there's bound to be someone that can fill the void that it left. I personally accepted that media is as disposable as candy wrapper for these creatives at the end of the day. It's best we find new and excellent experiences and catapult them to deserved praise instead of letting the top dogs get all the spots.

[@spencers4121]

After the first season of GoT, I looked into the books. Even back then his fans said he would never finish the series, so I never bothered. Best case, he leaves an outline that they follow. Worst case you get something like what Herberts son did, and shits all over his father work.

[@arekpetrosian4965]

@@spencers4121 Exactly. I absolutely LOVED Herbert's writing, the stories he wove within stories...everything was nigh-flawless. Then, his son started cranking out books, and I was at first happy and hopeful...until I read the first one. My reaction was basically, "Who WROTE this shyte???"

[@frocat5163]

Yeah...I'm pretty sure everyone who isn't a moron has already accepted the series will never be finished.

[@KeepingTheIronThroneWarm]

I said this in 2017. George Martin quit writing novels when he signed a deal with HBO. Ever since then, he's been playing guest celebrity, 'producer' and compendium editor. Easy gigs with minimal responsibility.

[@ODUBlue]

I think the reaction to the show’s ending must’ve spooked him. You’d think he’d want to finish the damn thing JUST to shut everyone up and move on with his life. The sooner he does, the sooner he can! Finish the book, George!

[@valtersplume3726]

Just recently I noticed a book titled "The Winds of Winter" on my shelf and started moving towards it. *Then I woke up.*

[@amazingronaldo9656]

I have to agree with Andre. What made ASOIAF so compelling is also the stumbling block that is stop GRR from continuing or finishing the work. He let the characters dictate where the story went, and it was wonderful, we didn't have a story where the writer had a beginning and end and tried to direct the story from one to the other. He had characters, started them at the beginning, and let their choices, based on their character, choose the direction their stories went, which also guided some of where the world's overall story was going. I think he may have had a vague, Winter is coming and White Walkers are returning idea, but when or how that all got there, was as much a mystery to him as to the eventual readers. It is also why the final two seasons failed in the TV show. The writers there wrote for traditional TV story telling, and tried to shoe horn characters into the ending that had been contrived. Plus they tried to do it in too few episodes. It is like some D&D campaigns I have been in. I was in one where the characters drove the story and the poor DM had to go along for the ride, with no clear idea how to end the story or where it might lead the group. Another, the DM jammed us through his story, so it was like we were observers of what was going on, not direct participants. He had a beginning, middle, and end built and we were going to follow his story or else lol. I don't think he will ever finish the series. And I think it is because he is afraid he has lost touch with his characters/story and has no idea how to end it all.

[@kuokublaikhan]

I've thought for years a large part of the problem is that he is not interested in the ice zombies. He probably put them in initially to up the fantasy quotient, without really wanting to write about them a lot. His overall plot now requires him to turn to them heavily, and he doesn't want to do that, he wants to write about the throne. But the whole point of the series is that the throne doesn't really matter, it's ice zombies that matter. This runs directly contrary to what he cares about. And he has no idea how to fix this.

[@geeman.8081]

I think it's more simple than that, he wrote like a 12 year old who just kept adding and adding and adding. I did it once when I had the Ninja Turtles fighting Mummra, but they had to find the Street Sharks to get them to help but they were currently busy helping Rayman fight Mr Dark. I totally forgot about Mummra by the time the Turtles took on Mr Dark.

[@poppag8281]

this is a really good analysis that I mostly agree with

[@nlb137]

My pet theory is that GRRM is too in love with his image as this 'unpredictable' writer. A twist that "no one saw coming" is high praise for him. The problem is that GoT made the series *too popular.* The period where GoT was the biggest thing on the small screen meant that *everyone* was speculating... and that means that (by sheer weight of probability) some of them *have* guessed what he was going to do next. So he doesn't want to write a "predicted" plot, but there are so many predictions that it paralyzes him from writing *any* coherent continuation without letting some fan be "right". It's like a bad DM; it's him *versus* his audience, rather than him working with them; that's why he's said he's going to have all his unfinished shit destroyed in the event of his death, rather than let people see whatever *was* there.

[@MRJTD99]

It doesn't help the predictability factor by taking so much time, allowing people to speculate every possible outcome for years and years.

[@Sorain1]

If asked to advise him, I think thee best advice I could give is "Get a staff, tell them to assemble the most popular fan theories on how things play out. Have them break this down by topic and into 4 routes each. Then pick the ideas that most interest you to write, and go with that. There will always be someone claiming to have 'called it' no matter what you do or don't do, but only you do the writing style people want out of the series. 99.9999% of people will not care some fan theories were 'right' if you just deliver on it in your writing style." I figure that way an outline is put down and at the very least when he dies someone else can finish the job.

[@b.chaline4394]

Yeah, to me GoT/ASOIAF is a textbook example of a franchise losing what made it good in the first place by becoming so incredibly mainstream, so fast. I know that sounds elitist, but it is clear, especially when you listen to interviews given by Weiss and Benioff, that they deliberately veered away from some of the themes ("theme are for 4-graders") of the books in order to appeal to a larger audience ("the football crowd", as they said, which is even more insulting) by overusing the lowest common denominators, i.e. dragons, cheap plot twists, action, etc. A counter-example would be Star Trek TNG: it started as Roddenberry-unfiltered, which meant high concepts with zero humour and very limited interactions between characters, but it managed to reach a cult-classic following by "loosening" itself somewhat, while loosing none of the clever and thougtful writing of its roots.

[@FeistyClown1229]

I have no issue that he seems to have no desire whatsoever to finish the series. What pisses me off is he just isn't being honest about it, and now is taking it out on the fans.

[@Priceluked]

I honestly think Martin's ideas were mostly adapted in the show's later seasons including the ending and the backlash freaked him out since he has to re-write everything.

[@TomDestry]

In that blog post, he names 13 projects (4 Westeros books, 5 Westeros TV shows, and 4 other TV shows), separate from the Winds of Winter, and mentions that there are other animated series that he can't name. In 2011, he estimated three years to finish Winds of Winter. While I understand the other projects are important to him, none of them are eight years behind schedule. The Winds of Winter makes Star Citizen look punctual.

[@cmc5394oparva]

All these side projects are basically a built-in excuse for him to not have to finish WoW or ADoS. "Gosh, everyone, I'd love to finish these books, but look at all this other stuff I'm working on!" Which is fine, except he's released one whole book from the actual series in the last 22 years. I'd have a lot more respect for him if he simply said, "you know, I got burnt out after Storm of Swords and I just haven't had the motivation to finish these books since then. I don't have the energy to work on things unless it's a newer project." At least the fan base who feted him at ComicCons for all these years would understand that, if be disappointed, and considering he was mainly a short story author and tried to become a screenwriter for most of his career, it would also make sense.

[@MegaSpideyman]

@Jamie Dwyer What's Star Citizen?

[@TomDestry]

@@MegaSpideyman it's a crowd-funded video game where the backers have paid over $400m up front, but the game has been delayed since 2014 and is not yet in sight.

[@MegaSpideyman]

@@TomDestry That's just sheer madness and not on the part of the backers.

[@Sealdeam]

@@MegaSpideyman there is a very good video about that from Fredrik Knudsen, it is madness that that video is already kinda old, like 4 years at least, and those guys have yet to release a thing.

[@Corrupt-R]

My theory is that there are two things that made him lose interest: One is the show gave away a lot of plot points after the books end, like Jon's resurrection. It's probably hard to get excited about writing the rest of the story when people already know some of what's going to happen. I have to think that makes these huge scenes really lose their magic and it's hard to get motivated to tell a story people already know. The second thing is that everyone hated the ending. I suspect the show ending is actually really close to what he had in mind (though not exactly). So now he has to either write an ending he knows everyone hates, OR come up with a completely different ending which means re-writing some of WoW so that it will make sense with this new ending. All that and of course I also agree he commits to way too many projects like said in the video.

[@TheSchaef47]

Jon's resurrection was telegraphed in his death. The story beats are written from the point of view of (typically) major characters, to the point where the name of the POV character sits at the top of the page. With Stannis gone to retake Winterfell and Sam gone to the Citadel, there are no major characters left at the Wall to continue the story. I've not read the last book in years and I know I'm light on the details, but I had a more thorough version of this theory put together at the time, especially when you've got people coming back like Catelyn and of course Berric Dondareon. All the pieces were there.

[@onogrirwin]

my thoughts exactly

[@Corrupt-R]

@@TheSchaef47 Fair enough and good points, but you know what I mean, writing about things that people have already seen in the show can't be nearly as exciting as writing about things people are seeing (reading) for the first time. Of course I'm not sure if that's one of the reasons, but just a theory

[@lukegialanella5992]

I agree completely, I think GoT was close to the ending and it sucked. So he was thinking, "$&$*, it!"

[@TheSchaef47]

@@Corrupt-R I absolutely agree with that. I wanted to stay away from the show until the books were done so I could read them first and then see the adaptation. I've seen the whole show, so clearly I eventually came to the same conclusion as all his other readers about the prospect of seeing those final books.

[@douglaslindeman797]

Andre makes a very good point that I never even considered... Martin is what many, including us in the profession, call a pantster. A panster, as Andre alluded to, comes up with these awesome characters, but they dictate the story. The opposite authors to this, myself included, are called plotters. We have the ending well in mind before we start writing the beginning. In order for George to finish "A Song of Ice and Fire" now he'd have fully immerse himself in that story again. He, as pointed out, has too many other more profitable and prestigious projects to even consider diving back into Westros.

[@TestAcct46]

Honestly I don't think Martin himself expected he'd still be alive at this point.

[@yeomane]

That's crazy to think about it.

[@maxb2021]

Honestly, I lost all interest in GoT after that dumpster-fire of an ending with that series....But what George is doing to his longtime book fans is just downright insulting, imagine hanging all the people who made you what you are up to dry like that. It reminds me of kickstarters who take loads of money and then end the project randomly. I feel like he made a deal with the devil for a successful book series to gain fame and fortune, but found a loophole by simply never finishing the books and just living off the "success" of the series lol.

[@petrbouda1741]

Well, that Kickstarter analogy sucks. G. R. R. Martin owes his fans nothing. The whole saga started more than thirty years ago, there was no promise, no guarrantee how many books it will be produced, nothing. However, Martin should not repeatedly assured his fans that he will finish the saga, that he will work on it etc. His empty promises are the main source of fan´s frustration and disinterest. Even his latest attempts to somehow appease them by giving them more prequels and stories from the world of Westeros won´t work because most of them just wanted a better ending than season 8 for god sake.

[@led-0185]

@@petrbouda1741 Martin owes his fans everything. He'd be a nobody without them.

[@traviscue2099]

I think the books were originally going to end that same way.. Just with better pathing to where we went. But seeing the response, maybe he wanted to change direction but got overwhelmed.

[@mvicksdog]

@@led-0185 That doesn’t mean he owes them anything it just means he sucks for not finishing it.

[@darkhighwayman1757]

@@petrbouda1741 I can buy that. He doesn't owe us anything but we also don't owe him anything either. I happily moved on to greener pastures

[@davidcoleman757]

He set up a fascinating dynamic in the first book: existential threat vs parochial squabbling. It's a magnificent metaphor for a bunch of stuff. Sadly, I don't think he ever knew whether the existential threat [the White Walkers] was more or less important than the parochial squabbling over the Iron Throne. I think this goes down as an unfinished symphony. I won't invest further time in Westeros until I know for sure he's finished the saga, and that ain't happening.

[@lucasriley874]

I strongly suspect he had a classic fantasy trilogy roughly planned out when he started because these modern 15 book franchises didn't exist back then. But it became a bestseller so the publishers pressured him to pad things out, keep it going. He invented more and more new characters, new factions, new everythings... all these new things had nothing to do in the slightest with his original story idea and didn't fit in with it in any way. Now all these pure padding factions and characters took over the story and I don't think he has any idea how to go back to the original plot he started writing in the first place. I was out years ago when I realised the books weren't advancing anything to do with the story, it had become 'days of our knights' the fantasy soapie and had no purpose or plot anymore.

[@poppag8281]

@Alexander Kerensky well we don't know if the white walkers are evil

[@RickAucoin]

Pulling a Robert Jordan has become an actual method of avoiding dealing with the shite writing someone's inflicted on their fans.

[@Joe.Rogan.]

That guy that said that George is lost in his own story nailed it on the head. For all the people who think that George has this whole story figured out in his head and just needs to put his pen to the paper have got it all wrong. The man is completely lost and once he figures out where one character is going he forgets where the other 50 characters are headed. Not to mention he[s admitted too having to back track his own work whenever he clumsily stubbles upon a storyline he's long forgotten he's started like 3 books ago. I've come to terms that he'll never finish. It's taken this long for ASOIAF to not happen.. what do you think is going to happen when he's forced to wrap the story up in the final book. He won't hit a wall he'll hit a mountain.

[@artnull13]

He should just get someone to ghostwrite it at this point.

[@corriblehunt4554]

Give it to Brandon Sanderson

[@PoolKid75]

He kinda did, Dan and Dave, and look how that turned out.

[@RyoMassaki]

@@PoolKid75 Dan and Dave where clearly not competent enough.

[@artnull13]

@@PoolKid75 I was going to say ‘but not Dan and Dave’

[@petrbouda1741]

If a hypothetical someone had enought talent to finish the damned saga at this point with Martin´s approval, why that someone would even do it instead of writing his own work under his or her own name?

[@pcmacintyre]

Meanwhile, Brandon Sanderson writes four extra novels during lockdown and has raised millions of dollars on Kickstarter to deliver the books to his fans at 3 month intervals. Back in the 1980s and early 1990s David Gerrold wrote a series called The War Against the Chrorr. He's been promising books 5 and 6 in the series for the last three decades.

[@dominusetdeus060644]

Brandon Sanderson is ridiculous. I have no idea how he can be so creative

[@reasonablyserious]

@@dominusetdeus060644 it's more about efficiency, but I agree

[@badradish2116]

rich netflix exec: "do a handstand" george: "yes sir!"

[@Funinightmare]

Fan: "Finish Winds of Winter now" George: "Nah it'll be fine"

[@illogicalassertations7875]

My theory is that George has actually been writing quite a bit, the issue is that he has totally lost control of the story and the result is Winds of Winter being incoherent garbage that he refuses to publish. He has basically spend years writing, rewriting, and editing the same book over and over again desperately trying to create something that isn't a complete disaster. It's a miserable situation for any creative person to be in so it's hardly a surprise he is jumping on any project that gives him an excuse to get away from it.

[@SirCanuckelhead]

I think it is more that the show did follow his story. So when it was not recieved well it made him want to change. Add on top of it all the "writers" on media that were guessing theories early and coming up with as good or better ideas. So really his vision got shit on and randoms have a better vision then him how to handle the rest. It is a dragon too big for Martin to slay.

[@shoyupacket5572]

@@SirCanuckelhead he shoulda never did the show imo, it's a cheap payoff compared to what he could have had if the series was finished first.

[@SirCanuckelhead]

@@shoyupacket5572 I don't fault him, it would be amazing to see your books come to life.. But ya, that was the beginning of the end for the books it seems

[@Trazynn]

A Storm of Swords has a pretty rounded ending. I'll just consider it a trilogy.

[@jinjoz42]

I'm planning on doing another reread of the series by the end of the year. I'll have to give that a shot and just pretend it ended after storm of swords

[@codyschwarz5155]

Nah Stannis needs an ending as the one true king

[@omensoffate]

No way

[@BL-mf3jp]

That's what I always said. Especially considered 4 and 5 just add more questions than they answer.

[@poppag8281]

@@BL-mf3jp yeah but it also introduces the best villan ever in the form of Euron

[@jamesford2192]

It’s March 31, 2024. This video has aged very well

[@souldry]

Martin has taught me a valuable lesson. Never start reading an unfinished series.

[@eyesofcthulhu2733]

I remember reading the books a few years back. The ending of the show really destroyed ASOIAF for me, I really couldn't care for the potential new books. Still though, I remember how amazing it was when I started watching game of thrones. The combination of familial/political dynasty in shambles and the low fantasy setting, the amazing characters. This series/book series managed to check all the boxes for what I really look for in a series. Still looking for something else to fill the void atm.

[@ChrisZukowski88]

HBO series of rome if you haven't seen it yet. It's only 2 seasons but still worth a watch.

[@gingerandbroke1402]

Not sure how the tv show ruined ASOIAF for you, it was the opposite for me, made me treasure the books more, but would I ever recommend the books to anyone now after George's littel hissy fit of an update? Not a chance.

[@_Stormfather]

I read the first book before deciding I wasn't interested in the series. From what I've heard, people were upset in the show because Daenerys suddenly went around killing innocent people, and viewers thought that was out of character. That perspective has always confused me, because from the very beginning she chose to throw away the opportunity to live a life of obscurity and peace, in order to pursue the throne and power. She _chose_ to go down a path that inevitably leads to war and countless innocents dying. Why anyone is surprised that she's a bloodthirsty murderer is beyond me. I have to second the Brandon Sanderson recommendation. His books are fantastic, and he writes like a machine. He also gave a wonderful ending to Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series, one of the best I've ever read. Just don't judge those books based on how awful the show was.

[@jeremybulfin4295]

Spot on. Couldn't give a crap if he finishes or not.

[@zorbagrecu8581]

Sanderson is awesome also, but in my opinion, for something closer to Martin’s stories I would look into Scott R Bakker, Steven Erikson and Joe Abercrombie. Happy exploring!

[@NASkeywest]

I have an idea for a movie. Where a famous author with a huge book series is approaching the end of his life and is putting off writing his final work. All of his fans follow him around to make sure he survives long enough to finish it. One of the gang gets hired on undercover as a house maid and chef and tries to figure out how to get him to eat healthy food. On his way to a book signing a car comes flying down the street, as the writes car approach’s the intersection, and an imminent car crash, one of our protagonists hits the gas and smashes into the oncoming car to protect the writer. You could really do a lot with the premise. Hell, maybe for the sequel to this movie the apocalypse happens and our group of survivors have to get the author to the safe haven to finish his work.

[@mrcliff3709]

If I had the money to make this I would cause I would watch this shit

[@NASkeywest]

@@mrcliff3709 yea! Could even have one of the fans try and seduce him/ try to be his muse and get him inspired to write. Of course by the end they would fall in love and she would confess she had originally only got with him to get him to write the damn book.

[@mrcliff3709]

@@NASkeywest yes it would be hilarious !

[@robertharper3754]

THIS!!!!! I'd rather watch this as a movie or TV show than read his final book!!!

[@jdsartre9520]

@@NASkeywest and then, on hearing her confession, the author would choke her to death and cry

[@markdaniel5784]

There's nothing left to say that hasn't already been said. GRRM explicitly stated he "feels sorry" for his fans that want the book series that he promised to be done. I don't think there's a person who realistically expects this series to be finished anymore, or who can still look upon GRRM with admiration or respect.

[@Counterbalance_]

I'm not a fan of GoT, in fact, I can barely stand it, but what a disrespect he shows his fans. He could even hire a ghost writer (plenty of writers do), and explain exactly what he wants from them. That would be at least some way to finish that story of his.

[@shannonbutler-williams7261]

Nope, at this point he's just trolling us, and I'm thinking the arsonist that took his books with him when he got the rest of my house was doing me a favor. The show took the heat off him. He procrastinated and procrastinated and then when the paper was due, the two meatheads in class did it for him, scored him a D+ that passed the class, so he has no compulsion to revisit it.

[@bighands69]

@@Counterbalance_ So what fantasy are you a fan off.

[@Counterbalance_]

@@bighands69 , I'm afraid I'm not going to be original. I'm a huge fan of Tolkien. I also love Robert Howard (or at least the majority of his works), as well as Lovecraft.

[@bighands69]

@@Counterbalance_ In terms of high fantasy there is only Tolkien, Howard and Martin that can write. Outside of that everything is rubbish.

[@fikilemkhize5776]

George is stuck because of the outline he gave d and d. He knows people hated the ending, now he doesn't know how to end it in a satisfying way

[@Saikotic]

I think George outright resents the original series now, especially since fans have been begging, pleading and demanding that he finish it. It's no longer a passion project but a nearly hated chore. It will never be finished.

[@kylewest9415]

There’s a certain amount of irony in Mauler being part of a conversation about never finishing projects…

[@MegaSpideyman]

Why's that?

[@RickAucoin]

At least he finished writing Game of Thrones! Back in 1997. Thank you, Drinker, for using "A Song of Ice and Fire" in the title of this video. Maybe people will remember that is the name of the damn book series. But I doubt it.

[@daniilmedvedev3647]

This is why you (author) always have to finish your book series before turning it into a live adaptation. Finish what you started, George!

[@PumpkinHoard]

I think it's the pressure at this point, combined with the heightened expectations from the TV show and what has likely been spoiled by the show. He doesn't know how create twists and turns that work well when half of those twists have already been done on TV and didn't really work out. Everyone expects him to fix what D&D fucked up but he's old, obese and lost on how to do it. Might as well eat himself into an early-ish grave so he doesn't have t let millions of people down when the book releases.

[@petersonfamily6223]

I can understand the complexity of the series has grown considerably, and it is difficult to tie together all the plot points that have split and expanded. Sadly the series did not expand on many plot points and characters, which will be lost to us. The high build-up of the white walkers, who are they, what are they, was significant until the series continued past the books and to end it all with Arya Stark coming out of nowhere to kill the Night King just didn't fit the narrative or the story. If George passes and doesn't finish his vision for the series, we are left with HBO's version.

[@stoneymahoney9106]

GRRM is going to go down in history as the most expensive cautionary tale in the history of fantasy literature. When you have no self-control or discipline, allowing the complexity of your project to spiral out of control and become unmanageable will destroy your creative energy, your reputation and every speck of goodwill your (non-delusional) fans ever had for you and your work.

[@Pyrela]

Hey, maybe we can put GRRM in charge of writing the story for Star Citizen!

[@peanuts_ma8965]

Do you want to know the real reason Martin will never finish that book? It's because he wrote himself into a corner. He created this elaborate world with hundreds, if not thousands of characters, each with complicated backstories that have to be cross-referenced and double-checked each time he inserts them because he can't remember what he wrote. He's probably got a massive database just for that. Then, he made a mistake by letting HBO film a show based on a series that was never finished. Now, he's got to go back to what the show did and try to figure out what the hell he wants to do with each character. I wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't rewritten what he's got multiple times or trashed what he has. That's the big risk a writer takes when you create a lavish fantasy world with its own language and history spanning thousands of years. It may start small, but quickly takes on a life of its own. That's why, as a writer, I stick to a handful of characters. Have one hero, one heroine, and a few secondary characters to drive your plot. This guy: Dragons, incest, zombie walkers, a one-eyed raven, court intrigue, families with more dysfunction than a guest on Jerry Springer, and plot lines that span centuries. Dude, ever hear of less is more? Tolkien did it, but I think he was the exception and not the rule.

[@JamesRDavenport]

Yes, Tolkien did, but at his core, his work is built like yours I think (or mine for that matter.) Focus on threes or fours, a trio or quartet of well-written characters that are the engine of the main story. All the other lore and backstories are just extra muscle to what is already strong.

[@Melanrick]

I mean, he can just start killing off people. Heck, Arya can kill half a court by herself. Then you have little finger, Cersei... Those guys together could Kill half of Westeros. So it's easy to leave that spot. The question is: does he wants it?

[@Attmay]

I guess I could say he bit off more than he could chew.

[@1978garfield]

@@Attmay That's ironic considering he obviously excels at biting and chewing. Yes I took the fat joke.

[@yodorr6249]

less is not always more, lots of stories thrive on big expanding world building, including his own had he kept his work ethic as that was one of the appeals. Not everyone is a brainlet that sprgs in anger if theres more than 4 characters in a plot

[@RageDaug]

George has mentioned multiple times about scrapping huge amounts of the writing in Winds of Winter to start over. He's written himself into too many corners and goes back to the drawing board trying to figure out how to fix it and end the series without relying on contrivance and/or betraying and making a mockery of the characters he created. My suspicion is that he got too ambitious and did too much world building and now can't find a satisfying way to bring it all back together. George also talks about messing up the timeline by the time he put out A Feast for Crows, and A Dance with Dragons ended up being not much more than letting time pass and moving pieces into place. To that end, aDwD wasn't originally planned as he wrote it, and moving those pieces caused more issues, and George is too good of a writer to say "F it" and just shoe horn everything in place like D&D did with the TV series. None of this is to excuse George, but to explain my theory about why it's taking so long and/or why he's given up on finishing it.

[@death-king1834]

You know so many other great writers wanted to see their stories concluded but often times were taken from the world far too soon before they got the chance. Frank Herbert. Robert Jordan. Kentaro Miura. George is worse cause there's literally nothing stopping him from finishing the story, he's had a good eleven so years but it's simply cause he just doesn't care anymore. In which case why should I bother putting in the effort of reading his work when he himself has no desire to see it finished?

[@petrbouda1741]

Also add Roger Zelazny to the bunch.

[@death-king1834]

@@petrbouda1741 Unfamiliar with him. What's he known for?

[@TheMightofDab]

@@death-king1834 Chronicles of Amber is the main fantasy series he's known for iirc. He's a big Sci fi name mainly

[@seandlax9]

Robert Jordan at least hand picked the person to finish the story, chose well, and ensured that person knew the broad strokes, the ending, and the end point for pretty much all the characters. Sanderson really only had to worry about the minor details.

[@TheMightofDab]

@@seandlax9 iirc it was his wife Harriet (also his editor) who picked Sanderson, not Robert Jordan

[@magicmorganamodels.1736]

"Write the book, George!" why is this not a t-shirt yet?

[@ShasOKais117]

Dig about a bit, it probably is already XD

[@ynkybomber]

This video has aged wonderfully so far.

[@Vzzdak]

After reading the first couple books, the end-matter of the second book had promotional material for a GoT collectible card game (CCG). I suddenly realized that the writing was intended to go nowhere because it was inspired by CCGs that were popular when George began writing the series.

[@VolvoImpala]

Hahaha, over a decade ago my cousin was threatening to pull a Misery on George R.R. Martin. Say what you want about the last three Harry Potter books at least J.K. Rowling finished the series. I'm seeing The Drinker's side on this. No matter what he writes with A Song of Ice and Fire the fans will be let down in some way or another. He's going to choke, essentially. I have to say this makes me respect Rowling a lot more because she suffered heavy writer's block on Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix probably because of an immense reputation and the fact that Goblet of Fire had just ended on the climax of the whole series. I don't know if anybody here is a fan but I was 14 when Goblet of Fire came out and the ending was so incredible, so jaw dropping, I had to read it again just to make sure I was understanding what was happening. If that isn't good fucking writing I don't know what is.

[@shannonbutler-williams7261]

Considering we still sat for years in rapt attention after the compelling tale of Dany's bout with bad Taco Bell, I think writing anything would be met well. It's not like "after this long, we need a perfect ending", it's like "Hey, could you maybe spend the time you take trolling us to cough out a book, that'd be super."

[@VolvoImpala]

@@shannonbutler-williams7261 Yeah, I heard the books jumped the shark on the fourth installment anyway. A lot of people were finding it very hard to get through.

[@sophieamandaleitontoomey9343]

The series definitely peaked with the Goblet of Fire in my opinion.

[@VolvoImpala]

@@sophieamandaleitontoomey9343 Exactly. Off the success of Prisoner of Azkaban which deftly interwove time and new characters, people were psyched at the prospect of the next book and not much longer we were met with a book twice the size and a dark first chapter that perfectly set up the ending though nobody knew at that point. The story and character building were peaking and Rowling's deft hand illustrated (with words) everything. I could see everything she detailed from front to back.

[@sophieamandaleitontoomey9343]

@@VolvoImpala Cedric's death and Voldemort's return were just so effective for me in the fourth book because of how haunting they both were. I just never really felt that way about the series after that since while it was never bad reading, it just never hit me in the same way.

[@J00icus]

Imagine having one of the most popular book series in the world only to have the TV adaptation of it completely ruin it and not having the motivation to finish the books to do the series and the fans right. George is a hack and A Song of Ice and Fire can go away forever as far as I am concerned.

[@bighands69]

He has the book finished and it will be different from the TV series finish. He is waiting for there to be a large enough time gap that it causes peoples memory of it to fade.

[@cradiculous]

@@bighands69 At his age, waiting is a very dangerous game

[@blazingmonolith4323]

@bighand69 Yeah keep waiting and see how that pans out. Seriously how can anyone still have faith in this loser?

[@ricardoredway]

as a writer and artist i understand martins problems.low motivation when feeling trapped,writers block and confusion is real problem when life and distractions comes a knockin.

[@phenix1947]

The burnout is actually a very tragic thing to happen to you as an author and I believe it would be more honest and honorable if he just admitted to it. Instead he behaves like a bratty teenager and lashes out when he’s asked about the book and denies the fans any kind of canonized book ending other than the one he knows he’s not gonna write.