GRRM vs. Frank Herbert: the Bad Writing Test

[@sernoddicusthegallant6986]

Ah yes, Samwell Tarly's "Fat Pink Mast" vs Leto Atredies' "Beefswelling" The competition I have always been waiting for.

[@redryan20000]

At least girls love pink. No girl loves "beefswelling"

[@titanomachy2217]

@redryab20000 Speak for yourself. Lots of girls LOVE beefswelling!

[@eloryosnak4100]

Welp, thats enough internet for the day

[@ImNotThatInt3resting]

This is not how I anticipated finding out Frank Herbert doesn’t snuggle after sex

[@warlordofbritannia]

But…that’s the best part of having sex!

[@ralcogaming7674]

@Alyssa Ravenheart first hand like the rest of us real men.

[@zoomerdaria]

Seriously, that's the most selfishly male perspective I've ever heard on sex.

[@hunterkiller1984]

@@ralcogaming7674 Heh..you said "First hand."

[@eon5417]

@@zoomerdaria What a needless(ly/and) bigoted comment.

[@davidvosspoor4694]

Refuse to resolve mysteries? GRRM gets 100 points for that one

[@mrgreatauk]

Not just mysteries but key plot points and story threads too 😂. Come to think of it, refusing to resolve the story full stop!

[@derekli8757]

Lmao he’s going to take his secrets and books to his grave

[@dekuuchiha9990]

@@derekli8757 man it's really looking that way ain't it? I thought ppl were just being difficult but here I am 7 years later and nothing.

[@Liaison_Verequiem]

@@dekuuchiha9990 when was the last boon released?

[@alex4k486]

@@Liaison_Verequiem 2011 I think

[@billvolk4236]

"There was an adult beefswelling in his loins, and he felt his mouth open, holding, clinging to the girdershape of ecstasy." - Frank Herbert, Children of Dune

[@TheIgnoramus]

man i read that last week, definitely the weirdest sentence in the series

[@gobblegobble5567]

At least it’s SOMEWHAT subtle. i can hardly understand what’s happening, besides the erection

[@00Maximilian]

At least it's understandable, because when it was written, there were bans on explicit content in books.

[@PolarBear-rc4ks]

Someone please explain this, I am so confused.

[@billvolk4236]

@@00Maximilian Um, no. Just no. Children of Dune came out in 1976, the same year as Interview with the Vampire. Kurt Vonnegut and William S. Burroughs had been publishing more explicitly sexual content for decades. The only American to ever actually be convicted under obscenity laws was Mike Diana, a comic book author, in 1991.

[@UtopiasCreativas]

Children=orphans 40:08 Everything happens at the same time 43:28 Present your research as dialogue 48:00 Commit to your genre 54:24 Fail to contextualise dialogue 1:04:26 Pick the wrong hero 1:05:00 Write autographical fiction 1:48:45 Narrate all as matter of fact tone 1:51:56 Thesaurus 1:57:00 Choose one character to bully 2:06:54 Signpoint your twist 2:08:43 Refuse to solve misteries 2:11:20 MAke your villain relly evil 2:15:15 Write outside the conford zone 2:24:00 Let yoye characters eplain themselves 2:28:49 Write yourself in a corner 2:51:57 Describe the wrong things 2:56:41

[@catherinepoteat]

This comment needs to be pinned

[@ConstanzaRigazio]

@@catherinepoteat I agree!

[@Lephrenic]

I wouldn't say George's food descriptions are an example of describing the wrong things. They're meant to highlight the privilege of the nobility feasting while the poor suffer.

[@starwarsnerd100]

Describing the elaborate meals and pies at the purple wedding are one thing, but Tyrion liking his bacon burnt black or Sansa liking berries and cream are both descriptions that could easily be removed with no effect on the story.

[@ceilingfanenthusiast6041]

Thats definitely a good point and you can really feel that with the contrast between the starving, rioting peasants and the upper class in ACOK, but tbh, I think the main reason is just that George likes food.

[@Gunplabro]

@@starwarsnerd100 I disagree. I think about my favorite foods literally all the time. The fact that so many of the POV characters think about eating a lot makes the characters feel so fucking real to me.

[@FidgetTheMidget8P]

@@starwarsnerd100 I disagree. His is ultimately a story about characters and their development. What people eat and what people enjoy to eat fleshes out the characters in so many ways. Sure, the details can be omitted and the events will be the same, but so can Tyrion's descriptions of his family interactions and the descriptions of Catelyn's attitude toward Jon growing up

[@starwarsnerd100]

Ok, I'll bite, what does Tyrion liking bacon add to his character? I'll admit Sansa's tastes could emphasize she's still a child who loves sweets, but let's be honest not all of the food descriptions serve much of a world building or character building surface, there's a limit. Like other Martin isms such as the brutal violence, I'll accept "It serves a purpose to the story" to some extent. But I also think we'd be kidding ourselves to not admit that it's also because food and combat are the sort of things George likes to write about

[@anonperson3972]

I think Franks lack of description helps his books age well. As we get more technologically advanced we can fill in the gaps with our imaginations. Whilst an overly detailed description could break our immersion... He describes the environment because it is timeless and he knows it well, whilst he leaves other things vague. I think that was probably deliberate...

[@Madinnit09]

Well said… I had not really thought of that.

[@amundmlan362]

That is a really good point, and definitely one of the reasons his books have aged as well as they have being in the very dating sci-fi genre. His technology feels genuinely fantastical because so much of it is up to imagination. That being said, Chani's hair is quite important, and I was genuinely taken back when I learned(in this video) that it was red.

[@Daemonussy]

I agree but that type of writing style isnt for me

[@anonperson3972]

@@Daemonussy That's fair enough

[@mejuliie]

I really love that about his books! At the start of Dune I was so confused, but realized he is telling his audience what they need to know, when they need to know. No superfluous exposition. Took me a bit to get into, but now I just love it. Dune is one of the only books I've re-read and never get bored of.

[@antighastly]

This is so intense. 6 Bad Writing examples in and neither of them have a point yet. At the edge of my seat. Oh, and a video discussing two of my favorite book series side by side just might have made my day

[@AltSchwiftX]

It's like a football game where nobody scores for the first half hour haha

[@AlbertAlbertB.]

@@AltSchwiftX The ones were they just don't score a point in the first half is just great. Especially if you have to sit there in the stadion in the cold and the rain.

[@shannond7437]

Only in a ASOIAF could you consider white walkers killing the Night’s Watch rangers, beheading a deserter, death of the hand of the king, getting sold off in marriage, etc as a slow start to a novel. Ha

[@croutendo2050]

@@AltSchwiftX where is part 2??

[@AlbertAlbertB.]

George is certainly guilty of confusing dialogue sometimes. There are strips of dialogue that make it rather impossible to know who is speaking.

[@KayWill108]

This was so common in "a knight of the seven kingdoms" my 1st read through was so confusing become of that.

[@AlbertAlbertB.]

@@tessierashpoolmg7776 what are you talking about?

[@tessierashpoolmg7776]

@@AlbertAlbertB. Sorry, but my comment is pertinent to a different discussion and I accidentally put it under yours. I deleted it to avoid further confusion.

[@AlbertAlbertB.]

@@tessierashpoolmg7776 alright, cool

[@EveChelios]

Currently reading the series for the first time and this is so true

[@jaredcrandall9145]

I think what was meant was "inorganic" love interests rather than "unlikely", because forcing a love interest is inorganic but the love interests in GoT are very organic but not socially acceptable/typical

[@kryptiqk2141]

How is Jaime and Cersei's love organic? It's not. It's just sick. If it were organic, there'd be far more brother sister relationships in the real world. There is nothing organic about loving your sister romantically. What other love interests are even in the story?

[@jaredcrandall9145]

@@kryptiqk2141 throughout history the elites have incest

[@kryptiqk2141]

@@jaredcrandall9145 So? That doesn't make it organic. If anything, that proves it even less so, because they were only doing it to for some sick fetish of pure blood. So those were not organic at all.

[@jaredcrandall9145]

@@kryptiqk2141 it is organic if you lived in medieval era in which there are few houses and you are not around many women that aren't peasants, and you are horny....

[@lurksnitchtongue8986]

@@kryptiqk2141 It's organic because it makes sense how these narcissistic people who only value their family fall in love with mirror images of themselves, who are family. It has nothing you do with what is normal in everyday life, but how their specific circumstances give way to their relationship.

[@SirLuquent]

"Present your research in the form of dialog" Ah, the Hideo Kojima method. "Raiden, wait! You need to listen to an 8-minute long cutscene about behavioral memes before you go forward!"

[@BrightBrandi]

That's the biggest reason I struggled to stay interested in his games they're just so long winded with their cutscenes

[@TheMasterblah]

@@BrightBrandi you're not supposed to play Kojima games for the gameplay, you play for the cutscenes

[@BrightBrandi]

@@TheMasterblah I had no choice the games were cutscenes

[@coh2conscript851]

@@TheMasterblah That is such a dumb way to think.

[@transformersrevenge9]

And I loved every minute of it. Kojima drops the hardest hitting cutscenes.

[@taylorleibel4327]

I love the ASOIAF food descriptions, it's like goodfellas or the sopranos where you get to appreciate some delicious sounding food

[@finncullen]

@Jake I'm just surprised George doesn't have a skinny obsessed wretch called Gabagoolum

[@mammamiaculpa]

me too! even if they arguably don't add anything to the substance of the text - although in my opinion they do as they emphasise the decadence of the nobility and help highlight character journeys, especially with the turn to cannibalism in ADWD - the food descriptions add so much colour and sense. the books would be plainer without them

[@Nicola_Blackwood]

@@mammamiaculpa I agree! I also like hearing about medieval foods. Feels like he must have done a lot of research and I find it genuinely interesting

[@SpiralSine6]

@Easttowest put the salad on the side. The *left* side. Otherwise, I send it back.

[@ShrapnelTwo]

@Easttowest mix it with the relish!

[@ConstanzaRigazio]

1:25:07 Writing from multiple points of view within a single scene is actually one of the things I enjoy the most in Dune!! I love knowing what everyone is feeling about something at the same time.

[@officialsusq]

"Refuse to resolve mystery"? This video is guilty of this coz we never got a part 2 to know whose the worse writter

[@nickm8425]

i check back every 6 months on here just to see if its posted yet

[@thenickfoxx]

When two infamous authors get to the point of being over analyzed by youtubers - they know they made it.

[@jonathancox1231]

Right this is absurd,writing is for the individual,to use ones imagination,two ppl reading the same book can see two different scenes????

[@thenickfoxx]

@Stinko De mayo "George didn't write a book". Can you further elaborate on what you meant by that? Perhaps not Frank. But George's "A Song of Ice and Fire" has sold over 90 million copies up to 2019. And considering it's not even finished speaks to the reach it has. It just means they and their work is well known, sir.

[@arutlit62]

I think it’s a fun exercise if we keep in the mind that writing is very individual. Just another reason to talk about our favourite series. Of course GRRM isn’t a bad writer just because he has orphans running around.

[@eelshark12345]

I think GRRM's logic with rape and realism in general is that he's trying to write a fantasy world that is still upheld by real-world logic. Just because dragons exist does not mean that humans are incapable of doing horrifcally evil things to each other when given the power to do so with little consequence.

[@robbomegavlkafenryka6158]

They only problem is that goes a little too far at times, like he has a character literally commit casual genocide and never talks about it again.

[@mammamiaculpa]

@@robbomegavlkafenryka6158 who does that?

[@robbomegavlkafenryka6158]

@@mammamiaculpa Tywin

[@mammamiaculpa]

@@robbomegavlkafenryka6158 when does he do that?

[@robbomegavlkafenryka6158]

@@mammamiaculpa book one. Tens of thousands of riverlanders were put to death or starved at his command. Entire settlements were completely wiped out and their populations murdered.

[@yoosh905]

Please do more of these! Also wish to see Alt Scwift X vs Alt Shift X : Bad brother test

[@kingremus7544]

This would be most epic, a legendary debate. However I don't think alt shift X has the guts for this

[@kaiju2296]

I still can't tell if they're the same person. I feel like it has to be one guy, but the cadence is *just* different enough that I can't tell if it's because they're different people or because Alt Shift X has a script.

[@kingremus7544]

@@kaiju2296 been thinking about that and its my new favourit theory that they actually are two different people! In his Iceberg video schwift talked about brothers who try to be as different as possible and he mentioned shifts youtube channel and his as an example. He said it so naturally that it must be true, right?? :D

[@tubbstubbs.5311]

@@kingremus7544 in the early schwift episodes he makes it pretty clear that he's the same person But maybe they're just trying to throw us off the trail? 🤔

[@kingremus7544]

@@tubbstubbs.5311 Yeah I think it was episode 50 where he mid-sentence changed his phrasing and started talking about "that other guy". He's been so consistent eversince that I can't but believe him that they are two!

[@space_patrolman]

I trace George's rampant use of onomatopoeia back to his heavy comic book intake as a child.

[@TheMightofDab]

I feel like the bad writing form of "unlikely love interest" isn't anything to do with making the reader uncomfortable, but is mainly meant in the sense of "what on earth does X see in Y?". I never really felt like Jaime and Cercei's love was unlikely; it's explained fairly well in their POVs. Nyneave and Lan in WOT just comes out of nowhere though. like Why is a Warder head over heels for some abrasive villiage wisdom in the first book?

[@themonkeandthesnek9997]

Funny, as somebody who finds women with “abrasive” personalities attractive, I can see it. Lan is stoic, strong and described by many throughout the series as “being able to have a staring contest with a stone and win”. Nynaeve is just as stubborn but more vocal about it. I see relationships in real life just like theirs. A strong man of few words and a strong vocal woman. 🤷🏻‍♂️ Nynaeve isn’t a stone to have a staring contest with, she’s a rolling boulder. She isn’t fragile. And someone like Lan who doesn’t need to prove his strength appreciates the way Nynaeve rises to “challenge” his stubbornness. This is just my opinion though and how I saw their relationship.

[@whawhawhawhaaaa]

I don't think Nynaeve and Lan are out of nowhere. Nynaeve is hotheaded and and impulsive while Lan is stoic and controlled. It's an opposites attract thing, very common trope. My only issue is that it happens too fast. Half of their relationship's development happens in the first book.

[@triplebog]

To counter Dennis Villaneuve's point on the bad writing scale from "get out of bed and it's raining" I feel like the rain in dune's first scene is kinda the opposite of "glum" which is what I feel the bad writing trope is actually addressing. Like rain in dune, a book all about an extreme desert, kinda takes on a new meaning relating more to security and tranquility, and perhaps "traditional power/wealth" that comes from living on fertile farmland. Which serves to contrast the total lack of security and tranquility and the abundance of raw power to be found on Arrakis. Or something along those lines. At the very least, it's an extremely powerful visual demarcation between Arrakis and whatever planet the Atreities we're from In any case, idk if it's bad writing in this scenario.

[@Evarakeus]

Half the shots of Caladan in Dune 2021 heavily feature its oceans, the raining intro is 100% about emphasizing the wetness of Caladan vs. the desolation of Arrakis. I'd have to rewatch, but I think there isn't a single shot on Caladan that doesn't feature water in some way. Even the emissary scene takes place immediately after rain, as evidenced by all the standing water on the ground

[@williamchristy9463]

That's absolutely the case. Rain=Glum is an English trope, almost surely, due to the sheer amount of rain on the Island. In a dry climate, Rain=happy.

[@redryan20000]

They're from Caladan :)

[@ellieg3460]

I think that "unlikely love interest" is meant to refer to if narratively it makes sense. Jaime is a likely love interest for Cersei because it makes sense with her narcissism, so although it's an "unlikely love interest" because it's unlikely that siblings would be in love/incest is rare (I hope), it's in character, it's not an unlikely love interest considering the character's personality. To me, this trope probably means something like "smartest, most beautiful/handsome, richest and high-achieving person falls in love with self-insert and bland john smith/jane doe because that's the author's fantasy".

[@ciukilp]

I also think that the Targaryen argument Alt makes is really bad, because it's not like the Targaryen's just had an ungodly amount of incestuous couples for no reason. They were trying to keep the bloodline pure, which was actually a thing in real history. Like incestuous marriage is assumed to have been a doctrine in Zoroastrianism.

[@felixsylvester4266]

​@@ciukilp I kind of agree, but imo George overdid it a bit with the Valyrians. If marriage between cousins was normal, and marriage between siblings happened from time to time, but was generally frowned upon in Valyrian society, it would make a lot more sense to me. Marriage between siblings being the norm just wouldn't work for more than a few generations. They would be too inbred to stay fertile, sane or even remotely healthy. The entire Targaryen dynasty would look like Charles II within a few decades.

[@ciukilp]

@@felixsylvester4266 did George ever say incest was the norm in Valyria? Because I don't imagine you'd need to keep the bloodline pure in Valyria as there were several Dragonrider families. Also Valyrians are less prone to fall ill, maybe that includes inbreeding save for the madness part. Because there are a few cruel or batshit insane Targaryens. Like Maegor, Baelor and Aerys are the obvious ones, but some were insane enough to do anything for prophecies that they misinterpreted, like Egg with Summerhall or Brightflame (can't remember his first name) who drank wildfire, or even Rhaegar who almost ended his dynasty because he needed to fuck Lyanna and didn't even try anything diplomatic as far as we know

[@felixsylvester4266]

@@ciukilp I couldn't really remember if George outright stated it myself, but according to the Wiki it's like this: "In the Valyrian Freehold, it was custom among the drahonlords to marry brother to sister, or, if that was not possible, an uncle to a niece, or an aunt to a nephew. However, this was not often practiced by those who were not from dragonrider families."

[@ciukilp]

@@felixsylvester4266 I don't like to take info from the Wiki, because it does use statements that George allegedly said on conventions in the 90s, so some of the info is hard to verify, but then again, George likes to include incest whenever possible

[@girthymcfatkid3870]

He's killing off mothers with death in childbirth more than fathers. This feels like a brilliant observation I would make lol

[@asaenvolk]

fathers rarely die from childbirth

[@TheDominionOfElites]

@@asaenvolk that’s not funny dude my dad died that way

[@niccolorichter1488]

@@TheDominionOfElites how?

[@ranfan1820]

@@niccolorichter1488 His dad obviously gave birth to him.

[@niccolorichter1488]

@@ranfan1820 magic or something...

[@beckstheimpatient4135]

I don't get how Cersei can be 'likable' and has 'good reasons' but Leto who is literally working on saving the entire species and suffers so greatly for his choice is not in any way sympathetic. I ADORE Leto for that specific person. He's quite literally my favourite character alongside Odrade for how fascinating they are.

[@Mcgif21]

People don’t like morally upright people, they think it’s tacky.

[@dr_palpy9214]

Cersei is likable in a “I enjoy reading this character” not that she is morally likable or someone you’d want to be around irl. Also there’s good reasons for her actions as in we as readers understand why she acts the way she does not that she’s justified in any sense. At least that was my understanding of Shifts take.

[@Mcgif21]

@@dr_palpy9214 That’s how you and I would understand it. But we have to understand that there are people like Cersei in this world who are legitimately like here or find sympathy with her in some way.

[@42Nightsyesterday]

@@Mcgif21I mean the emperor isn’t even morally upright in a tacky way. He’s this inscrutable aloof inhuman entity with a grand scale plan for humanity which he’s willing to do anything to accomplish. Plenty of villains have the same description and he really is the villain depending on your perspective even if he sacrifices himself for his own aims. But as cool and interesting as he may be, he just preaches the whole book in a holier than thou way which is true and fits his character but doesn’t really make him endearing

[@Transform-u2q]

Cersei was a bit less cartoonishly evil on the show than in the book, but "likable" is not the adjective that comes to mind, and her "good reasons" in both books and the show tended to be on the "did not think this through" spectrum.

[@michiganscythian2445]

Currently listening to Dune on audiobook and he uses certain words A LOT And the point of Paul waking up with the rain is to show how common rain is on Caladan versus the sere desert of Arrakis.

[@PhoenixRiseinFlame]

Yeah I thought the same thing. Villeneuve was justified with using the rain to visually contrast the desert of Arrakis

[@serielmcleod1900]

George writes character focused narratives better. Frank often loses his characters to the world, which is such a louder and greater character than the characters themselves. And that’s not a bad thing…. It’s just a harder read because it creates a narrative din…. There’s just so much going on. In ASOIAF… there’s a lot going on but it’s only from the characters perspective. To that character… the only thing going on in the world is what they themselves know. So even though the world is massive and busy… for each person… the only know what they know. The world isn’t that big for the character. And it’s easier to digest

[@DanielLopez-ob9jz]

I think GRRM is able to balance the story on multiple characters better whereas Herbert is really only good at telling the story of a single character while his world and thought provoking concepts take center stage.

[@willmungas8964]

Using… many… dramatic… ellipses…

[@DizzyBusy]

​@@willmungas8964 that's only in book 4 though. By that point, the editor was just thankful that a full book was finally submitted

[@davidcopperfield5345]

Fully agree. I want so bad to enjoy Dune. The world is so amazing, and the characters are so interesting, but I never get enough of a feel for them to latch to anyone in particular. There's no Tyrion or Arya or John to guide me through the massive changing world. That's how you get through ASOIAF the first time. Just following the story of the character you like. Then on your second read, you start to notice how deep he world is and how well things connect. On your third read you start to see the plot threads that foreshadow the big plot twists. On your fourth, you start to understand the themes.

[@joshpearson2928]

I feel like a lot of these 100 bad writing things are bad themselves. Some are true, but others are a bit ridiculous. I think instead of "bad writing" it should be "bad writing if done badly". It all comes down to intent.

[@theatheistbear3117]

Bullying characters is fun. Trauma builds character.

[@sjajsjsja4523]

You're not supposed to take it 100% seriously. It's just for fun.

[@Ignore14]

Wrong, it's SCIENTIFIC PROOF

[@jonttopia]

I mean that's true for all "writing rules", there's not one thing that's always good or always bad when writing. Even things like bad grammar has its place and time. These rules are more like general trends of literature, shitty low-effort writing tend to have more of these things.

[@shinobi-no-bueno]

Not bad as in bad, bad as in cool, but not cool as in cold but cool as in good 👍

[@falwk]

number 28 struck a nerve, I don't think all mysteries needs resolving; they're part of the world at large the dark tower is a great example, King decides in the final book that all mysteries and motivations needs to be tied up and I feel a lot of the charm and soul of the books disappears i loved the very ending, despite King warning about the ending, it was very fitting and fantastic but how he resolved Roland's motivation and the red king was incredibly lack luster. what always stuck with me through the readings is Rolands mysterious tenacity, the man has a quest and that's all, damn anyone who comes in his way

[@ItsButterBean1020]

Tolkien did this too We never knew much of the lands beyond Middle-Earth and characters like the Blue Wizards and Tom Bombadil are utter enigmas without much answers you can force on them

[@DovahFett]

@@ItsButterBean1020 That’s mostly because Tolkien himself didn’t even know the answers. He framed his writing as if he was uncovering/recounting the history of Arda, not inventing it, and unless he was completely confident in a detail he didn’t add it. He scrutinized every word he put to the page and had a habit of adding things in without yet knowing if he’d flesh them out later on or not. He spent the final decades of his life trying to fill out as much as possible with the stories that would become the Silmarillion, but he died before they could be finished. So who knows what was intentionally vague and what he would have eventually fleshed out.

[@nuclearlefthook5008]

I agree. In fact, I think it makes every single piece of fiction much more interesting, to have atleast one great mystery that remains unsolved. Nothing captures my imagination like that.

[@dekuuchiha9990]

Yeah I agree 100%. I don't want everything to be answered. I do want to know the damn Night King's identity(or whomever was the 1st person to turn as we have no Night King as of it.Story will be incomplete for me without that bit.

[@zerothefool2437]

Its like Tom Bombadil, I'm glad that Tolkien never gave a direct answer about who or what the fuck he is, he's just a weird lil guy whos older than dirt and feels weirdly out of place yet adds to the scope of the world

[@balthazarwerner7792]

Looks like schwift has pulled a George on us with this one

[@weareallbornmad410]

Most of the proposed "bad writings" we're testing against are incredibly basic. You get mixing tenses, grammar and punctuation errors, editing mistakes... no professional author would have those in any significant number. Most fanfiction writers don't, and they don't have an army of proofreaders and editors whose entire career is making sure there are no grammar and punctuation errors in your book. This was fun though :)

[@waltonsmith7210]

There's nothing wrong with having a villian that's genuinely evil.

[@guerilla_food]

I think the issue is that 'evil' as a sole character trait is one-dimensional and uninteresting.

[@ErgonomicChair]

As a professional writer... a lot of these points are just fucking stupid. Like someone went "I'm gonna write 100 points!!!" And then... laboured to get 100 points by making a ton of shitty ones.

[@Dual_Ralle]

@@guerilla_food Dio. Like bruh, there's an endless amount of one dimensional villains that are fucking awesome.

[@guerilla_food]

@@Dual_Ralle Dio is evil because of his messed up childhood. He was horribly abused and he viewed Jojo as a man of privilege- He was indoctrinated by his father to believe that privileged people are that way because their privilege is acquired at the expense of people like Dio and his father. Dio's character is developed to be evil, thus he isn't an example of a one-dimensional evil character.

[@opchild]

@@guerilla_food one dimensionality isn’t dependent on a characters bg. It’s how they think and act, what motivates them plays a part but doesn’t dictate. Thanos isn’t multi dimensional because his motivation is to ultimately help the universe, but because he loves his daughter. Is caring toward her in a way that he isn’t towards the rest of the world. He has multiple dimensions

[@monsieurwhite337]

Concerning point three, starting novels too early, both authors are creators of worlds far-surpassing a single novel. They have to set up characters and situations. This isn't, say, Catch-22, a singular story encompassed by a singular book. Dune and GoT would be much different without the hashing out of it's subjects. Great video!

[@ralcogaming7674]

True, ASoIaF has to be a little slow at the start, and while yes "nothing happens" for awhile that isn't necessarily true, the story isn't about the walkers vs. Humanity that's only a small part of the story despite being the over arching threat, the real story is about the political intrigue and how these characters interact, so the first few chapters telling us very basic but necessary information is required of the story, Jon arryns death has to be told to us as new information as if he'd been long dead why would it be a plot point? Cat hating Jon is also a tad vital due to it being part of Jon's motivation to join the watch. Theres a big difference between starting too early and starting early enough that we care about the characters before they start their struggles.

[@reptiliangeek8414]

I legit love Victarion. He is a terrible human being but he is also a product of his culture(which i find interesting to explore) and a total himbo. I love his chapters almost as much as those of other more “likable” characters at least for how different they are while still being in the same beloved GRRM style.

[@Faretheewell608]

And we will never know what happened to him

[@SadnessCentral]

I wonder what Dany’s reaction will be if/when she finds out how he’s been “freeing” slaves. Def one of my most anticipated conversations for twow.

[@olorin4317]

Haven't watched yet, but recently reread both of the authors. I would say that Martin is better at delving into multiple characters in one book. Herbert is more of an original thinker and creative.

[@Gnomwearman]

thats interesting. I love Martin's ability to weave a tale, and have interesting ideas, and clever quips. his characters seem to have more flesh to them than Herberts.

[@hakan1132]

herbert isn't an original thinker. his story is nothing more than lawrence of arabia with sci-fi sauce, and big worms and shit...

[@xJBx72x]

@@hakan1132 Martin isn’t an original thinker. His story is nothing more than Romance of the Three Kingdoms with fantasy sauce, big dragons and shit

[@hakan1132]

@@xJBx72x hello friend. I'm making my comments from the original padishah emperor's lands; Turkey. which is what left from ottoman empire after westerners motivate arabic people to revolt and divide just because they want easier access to that juicy oil(spice melange) reserves. no giant worms here tho. cheers.

[@carabculln1232]

@@hakan1132 you got fucking owned lol sit down

[@mukkaar]

Almost every rule of storytelling can be broken as long as it serves the story. That said, there are many things that are generally good practices.

[@equidistanthoneyjoy7600]

I think it'd be fun to treat this as a challenge. Try to write a coherent story that breaks as many of these rules as possible in the shortest time.

[@ninjadolphin01]

I really feel that with Dune people really seem to miss that the book is not about characters who are Arab Muslims it's about the descendants of Arab Muslims living tens of thousands of years in the future on a desert planet where it never rains. A lot of Frank Herbert stuff is the idea of these real world cultures and religious ideologies under new material and social forces and the forces and the sort of extreme forms they take as a result

[@beepbop6542]

The Fremen are like fucking Scottish or something in the books, with red hair

[@ninjadolphin01]

@@beepbop6542 Chani has red hair, or auburn. There are redheads in the Middle East and her father was an offworlder with auburn hair

[@titanomachy2217]

In other words, the Fremen maybdescend from Muslims, but they aren't ethnically Arab. This reflects the current North African and Middle Eastern world, where most people speak Arabic but aren't ethnically Arab, or at least not predominantly. Less than 15% of Muslims are Arabs.

[@Shiyaroku4869]

I think the last part about Romanticising Places really highlights how best to use bad writing advice: By considering what you're writing and how you're writing it and ultimately doing the wrong things - on purpose. Following the book to a T wouldn't make you a good writer, but choosing which rules to keep and which to break might. I can't speak for Herbert, but Martin romanticising scenery that likely isn't very romantic to the reader makes sense: Westeros is cruel to us, but to many people inhabiting it it's all they've ever known. Of yourse they would find beauty in things we wouldn't. Limited third person POV means that we're not getting how Martin thinks about battle and violence and dirt and food scraps, but how his characters think about them. I find the "Romantisation" very purposeful.

[@kryptiqk2141]

Yeah, we don't get what Martin thinks about battle, violence, dirt, and food scraps, because he is a trash author that doesn't really have anything to say. He's just doing shit to do it without any purpose, that's why he had no outline, and does the dumb garderner approach. You all think someone's eye color matters, and GRRM doesn't even care about that, because he doesn't have anything to say. The novel is just to make money, not have a real point. And don't say there is a point to something that has no ending, so there is no way you could know there is a point. I know there isn't, because what has been written so far has, by the author's own admission, NO STRUCTURE.

[@Shiyaroku4869]

@@kryptiqk2141 If you prefer reading stories where authors speak to you directly about topics they care about that have a defined endpoint, maybe fantasy is not the best genre for you. Have you considered reading memoirs? It seems to me you'd be more likely to find what you seem to be looking for in a memoir. How about John LeCarrés "The Pidgeon Tunnel"?

[@kryptiqk2141]

@@Shiyaroku4869 Nah, all other fantasy I've read doesn't have this problem. They actually have a point, that's why they decided to write the novel. Most people who write, regardless of genre, have a point. But I feel like just ASOIAF specifically doesn't. I won't read memoirs. Why would you even suggest that? I want the author to have a point so he can have an ending. I bet, and can pretty much see, that it is hard to write an ending when you don't have a point.

[@Shiyaroku4869]

@@kryptiqk2141 I suggested it because it seems to me like the thing you enjoy in novels that you don't get from GRRM are personal morals. Now there absolutely are some fantasy authors that enjoy moralizing; for Herbert it appears to be the reason he wrote Dune in the first place (or take Pullmans His Dark Materials), but a lot of it is more of a "wouldn't it be cool if this existed?". Personally, I find that fun, but you don't seem to like it, hence I recommended a genre where the author is essentially a character in his own work - memoirs. If an authors values are what you are interested in, memoirs are an obvious choice.

[@kryptiqk2141]

@@Shiyaroku4869 I'm interested in fantasy and the views and values of fantasy writers. Not any person's values. I like the minds of those who do fantasy and science fiction. IMO Martin is the only fantasy writer that has no point. Tolkien had a point. Eddings and C.S. Lewis, had points. I've never noticed any fantasy or sci fi that is JUST wouldn't it be cool if this existed. Not even Martin. Unless it's wouldn't it be cool if incest were normalized multiple times in one story. That's the only unique thing he is doing, and I don't know if that is cool that it exists. LOL. I think Martin has a hard time writing the final books, because he never had anything to say, never had a point. I think not having a point, would make ending a story hard, because the story had no point in being told to begin with, so of course the ending/punchline would be hard to do.

[@shazzy544]

I really disagree about point number 15. I think the issue its trying to explain is when an author chooses a protagonist who they present (with their own language) as good, when infact they are bad. Cersei, for example, is relatable, despite being bad. Similarly, the god-emperor in Dune is not relatable, but also isnt presented as if he IS good. Similarly with Victarion, he is a bad guy who is presented objectively. If he was coded as heroic and good despite objectively being a raping, pillaging, murderous viking warlord, that would be the issue.

[@Shiyaroku4869]

I would argue that every character portrays themselves as good within their own POV, so whether we like certain characters - and enjoy seeing them as protagonists (which I think are two different things), depends on other factors besides being portrayed as "good" or "bad". For example, Tyrion is an almost universally liked character because of his wit and humor and relatability, but he has done a lot of terrible things. So Martin either gets a point for describing all POV characters as "good" from their own perspective, or he gets a point for describing characters like Tyion as likeable even when they do terrible things. Either way, one point for GRRM

[@robbomegavlkafenryka6158]

Actually, that bit on Vic would make for an interesting deconstruction of how difficult cultures have different standards they hold their heroes to.

[@theatheistbear3117]

@@robbomegavlkafenryka6158 Very true. Different lords, of different houses, of different nations, had very different ideas of what a knight should follow. Same for the samurai.

[@lurksnitchtongue8986]

@@Shiyaroku4869 Light switch brain take

[@vicentereyes8463]

@@Shiyaroku4869 but thats not the point, obviusly, most people are the heroes of theyr own stories, but George doesnt idolise or glorify from his own point of view in the writing all the terrible shit coded into his greyer characters.

[@moshecallen]

In the character names, I always thought that Herbert was using an apostrophe to represent a glottal stop like the aleph or ayin in Hebrew or alif and ayin/ghayin in Arabic. English doesn't have these consonants as standard sounds and so use of an apostrophe to represent them is standard.

[@btarczy5067]

I don’t know if it‘ll come up later but the cliffhanger endings of chapters including lots of death fake-outs are a bit much in Ice and Fire. They do keep me engaged but begrudgingly so.

[@valerieblackwell5765]

But if we are four books in maybe we dont need it so much anymore

[@kryptiqk2141]

It's silly and Jon's death is just insulting, because in no way did I ever believe him to be perma dead. Even after Ned and the Red Wedding, when Jon got stabbed I laughed and immediately said he's not dead. The show didn't even bother to stretch it out. He was back within an episode.

[@juliuscaesarsimp3430]

By time jon snow gets stabbed anyone paying attention the appropriate response is "oh no.... anyway"

[@guccifer764]

@@kryptiqk2141 That’s a bit disingenuous. Saying “he was right back in an episode” misses the fact that there was a whole season break in between. In all likelihood, Jon will come back at the start of TWOW so it’s pretty much the same thing.

[@Sunflx27]

Yeah, I think it kind of worked in the first times, but then George kept doing it and it lost any impact he might have wished For instance, even before the show catching up with the books, I don't remember to see a single person that actually believed that Jon would remain dead after the end of Dance

[@brianferguson3447]

I've never understood why some people get so hateful about using "fancy" words. I've had people say I shouldn't use certain words because some people won't understand what I mean, but of course people aren't going to know what they mean if no one ever uses them. Like, words are fun. They're great. Why do some people hate learning new words?

[@jackmcfarlane7173]

I think something to keep in mind when watching this, especially for aspiring writers, is that the book is not saying "if you do these things, you're a bad writer." On the contrary, these are examples of how conventional rules of writing are commonly broken by newer writers. Many writers--including GRRM and Frank Herbert, I would argue--are considered great because of the ways in which they bend and break the conventional rules and established etiquette of storytelling. To be a good writer is NOT to follow all the rules. It is to know what the rules are well enough that you can intentionally break them to convey your story more effectively.

[@holysayingsofrobin4055]

Frank Herbert had a thicker beard. George does not. The title of Frank Herbert's Dune is one syllable long.(a symbol of chad status among authors) Georgie's "A-Song-of-Ice-and-Fire" is seven, count 'em, SEVEN syllables long! Frank Herbert is the Kwisatz Haderach of literature. A man literally bred for the sole purpose of writing a RELETIVELY COMPLETE, profound series of books. George's INCOMPLETE series of books, all be it a solid series, pales in comparison. (In my opinion.)

[@theatheistbear3117]

Frank actively worked on his books and completed his intended trilogy while George is trying to do anything but write.

[@holysayingsofrobin4055]

@@theatheistbear3117 True. God-emperor was pretty cool, too.

[@federicorudolph949]

@@holysayingsofrobin4055 God Emperor fucked my mind... I never read anything like that in my entire life. So many Ducan Idaho's. A man tienes into a worm and then dying while being dismembered by his own simbiotic body. The concept of being someone but being at the same time somekind of hivemind with thousands of individualis living inside of you. And being human but at the same time not. The fact that Leto took the Golden path what made of him a tyrant who will never be forgiven but at the same time a necessary force and sacrifice so the humankind can keep surviving. I don't know man, crazy, grotesque, tragic, and awesome as nothing I ever read.

[@holysayingsofrobin4055]

@@federicorudolph949 Yeah. It was a mind-fuck, for sure. Lol.

[@ImortalZeus13]

I believe that the two men as people are incomparable in their quality (Frank being pretty obviously the better professional writer and a more interesting person) but I believe that both stories are both of immense quality, just in completely different ways.

[@adamsinger123]

@2:46:46 “He [GRRM] doesn’t burn through his plot, he gets lost in it. 🤔 A gardener getting lost in the weeds.” (Quite 😂 funny, given GRRM’s analogy about gardeners and architects)

[@kryptiqk2141]

He doesn't burn through the plot, nor does he get lost in it. He just doesn't want to advance it, because he'd actually have to make decisions that matter. He'd rather just spin wheels and meander forever like he's been doing for the past 2 decades. The plot did not advance in Feast and Dance.

[@arndbrack2339]

@@kryptiqk2141 Wouldn't it be fair to say that at this point grrm's stance might be more like "i like the weeds how they are", making it unproveable if he'd actually be able to find a path? considering the amount of zealotry in his fanbase i guess he could be more motivated too.

[@praiha]

I liked how George found out the term night soil, and used it in like 3 different chapters in the same book.

[@RhodokTribesman]

Mainly during descriptions of King's Landing, right?

[@praiha]

@@RhodokTribesman I think it's a common theme from Oldstown to Mole's Town. But looks like Dany used the term once in A Clash of Kings before it was used 4 times in A Fest for Crows, so George did came up with it a bit earlier.

[@srwooten2]

Haven't been able to watch any of your recent raised by wolves content yet because I'm trying to catch up in that show, so it was an awesome surprise to see this. Amazing stuff, thank you!

[@monkfishy6348]

Semicolons connect two related, independent clauses without a conjunction. They are stronger than a comma, but subtler than a period; they're very sneaky that way.

[@syzyphyz]

I think generally GRRM writes well enough to get away with his flowery descriptions, they aren't overly repetitive, but he is close to getting a ding, sometimes he gives the most insignificant details, and the story can drag on and go quite slow, and you're right, Herbert almost goes in the opposite direction especially when it comes to character descriptions. With the pacing i think it's almost necessary with the scale of each story, Dune doesn't have as many characters but it's taking place in this vast interplanetary context and all sorts of strange scifi concepts you have to get to know to understand what's going on, and with GRRM there are of course many players in the Game of Thrones and you have to develop all the characters and understand their interplay, so they each start the stories teasing something epic that is to come but then switch to slowly building up the world and context necessary for the scale of the stories.

[@jerrywhoomst1116]

In general, don't use semicolons when you could use colons or commas instead. I think G.R.R.M. is guilty of just that. But I don't really think it matters that much.

[@iLightbulb]

Your content is truly top tier, this was so much fun!

[@jamesabernethy7896]

I've only just watched this now. This has been a joy to watch and listen to. Quite deep but not so serious that you couldn't keep things light hearted. Well thought out, well presented but great interaction with those on the chat. You took on board their comments and in some cases it changed your initial opinion, at the same time you sometimes stuck to your guns. I know interaction is what a stream is all about but still... well balanced with a good splash of humour. Look forward to part 2 and will definitely watch this again.

[@wh886]

Both of these guys are amazing but GM broke so many rules with GOT, as good as DUNE is along with all the following books (I know his son wrote the later ones) as a study of human behaviour and systems, it still treads familiar ground in character development and outcomes, no one ever knew what was going to happen in GOT. I’ve never read anything before that had me shouting at a book. For me it’s GM

[@kryptiqk2141]

No one ever knew what was going to happen in GOT...lol...neither did the author. Martin is just JJ Abrams, but he uses a random death as his mystery boxes. Martin sets up so much stuff, just like Lost, and just like Lost, most of it pretty much goes nowhere and means nothing to anything.

[@Ravenicus]

@@kryptiqk2141 Nah, there are plenty of indications he planned out the endings and pay offs. If anything, it's more that he has had trouble getting everyone to that point in the same amount of time and in a realistic amount of pages.

[@kryptiqk2141]

@@Ravenicus I don't believe that. He wouldn't have this trouble if he planned it out. That's what planning is. He didn't plan anything.

[@Ravenicus]

@@kryptiqk2141 Well, you're at the minimum categorically wrong, because you can actually google and look at his original outline for the entire story.

[@kryptiqk2141]

@@Ravenicus No you can't. You can look at an outline that is nothing like the story we are reading. It's basically an outline for an entirely different story, where Jon and Tyrion are in a love triangle with Arya. That shit is NOT the outline of ASOIAF.

[@christianlackmann7053]

About picking the wrong hero: George Martin makes horrible persons likeable. I think every person in GoT has bad habits but that makes the charakters realistic. Jaimie got my favourite charakter in the whole book series. I think he is just missunderstood.

[@hottiekarotti7]

i loved the stream. Please do more :D i could listen to you for a year. keep up the great work :)

[@hottiekarotti7]

We still don't know definitely who is the better writer. We need you schwifty

[@hottiekarotti7]

Pwease

[@Mewobiba]

"suddenly explaining the whole plot" is like Martin's prime trademark in basically everything but ASOIAF. Nightflyers, In the House of the Worm, Sandkings, basically all his scifi work have that specific pacing issue.

[@shannond7437]

The number of times Schwifty said “I think Frank is guilty” or I think he’s pushing it, etc with no sin needs it’s own video counter. 😹

[@Arkain89]

1:46:50 worth mentioning Herbert does this a lot, sometimes you've got a "conversation" that goes on for two pages and one character gets interrupted every time they try to get a word in

[@iirovaltonen4258]

"He is using an appropriate number of adjectives" is such a brilliant line.

[@ramonek9109]

He is using an appropriate, propertional, well-messured amount amount of adjectives.

[@Haveldorf]

This video is such a fun concept, and i return to it often. I really hope you do a second part, maybe with Glidus and Quinn? Also, on the autobiographical self-agrandising writer writing about a writer; The Armageddon Rag is exactly this.

[@asorlokirunarsson9864]

I want more of your rants. Your people vs. individual rant was ramping up great

[@joshuasmallwood590]

I’m still waiting for part two 😪 coming back for a rewatch a year later :)

[@brigittehuber9745]

Yep.

[@dfailsthemost]

I think frank is way more guilty of unlikely love interests. Martin's typically make sense and feel justified. Herbert's seem a bit convenient.

[@santinoalvarado963]

I just noticed that he reads comments from Glidus and even makes him a mod. Amazing

[@FractalSpiral1]

On 15, my reading of Stickley's intent there has more to do with providing the correct viewpoint for the story you want to tell. You don't pick a primary viewpoint character of a customs exchange agent who only occasionally interacts with the epic fantasy plot of your books. Frankly, I don't see how you tell Dune's story from a different set of perspectives. The whole point of Dune is that it's inhuman to become a messiah figure, that progress is not a clear line, and the environmental costs to progress are often quite extreme.

[@Darkai34X]

Even though I consider Dune to be the better book series (I love its themes and worldbuilding), GRRM is a better writer, and I'd go even further than consider him the best fantasy writer at the moment, his prose is fantastic.

[@elissafanzo1124]

The apostrophe in Muad'dib is supposed to be a gottal stop, while in Farad'n it represents the missing vowel in English.

[@haanirnowilaty6423]

Correct; Muad'dib is an Arabic word meaning, "teacher or way pointer, or one who IMPARTS a discipline". It, like many Arabic words, a very subtle language indeed, has no English analog. It is customary to insert symbols to replace vowels or stops, or other uncommon sounds in Arabic, Farsi and Turkic with symbols and punctuation. A prime example would be the umlaut on top of the O in Turkic, which gives it a rolled R sound. Dune is basically "Future Arabs in Space" for the lack of a better term. There are many instances where the original Arabic root words are apparent to the learned eye. Examples are: Shai Hulud...or Shahid Al-Khulud, which means: The witness to Eternity. Tleilaxu is derived from "Beni Tulailah", which is the proper pronunciation, meaning "The tribe of Little Talal", or "Diminutive Talal". This is a grand Arabic name, well steeped in history. Same with the Bene Gesserit...Or Beni Quaseerah. Literslly meaning.the tribe of the short woman! And the list goes on and on. Herbert took Arab Mahdi (Savior) mythology, and built his world around it's principle ideas of the marriage of politics and faith, something we see in the news coming out of the Middle East everyday. Unfortunately, the West has been denying, downplaying, belittling, basterdizing, and canceling Arab contributions to, and impact on, "Western" civilization and culture since the days when Salhiddine kicked Richard the Lionheart's crusading butt out of the holy desert about 1,000 years ago, and Mr. Herbert as fine a writer as he is, was basically building on a literary tradition that goes back to the 1,001 nights and the lay of Q'aise Wa Lubnah, the first recorded tale of high tragic romance, reaching back into antiquity. Thank you.

[@ivjay5741]

This is so much fun. So fast with the quotes and the reactions! Also great summary and a great way to relive parts of the books.

[@ThatHatGuy95]

If I made a word cloud of this review, the 3 biggest words would be: Herbert, Martin, and Ding! Loved it!

[@sofialeonardsson7389]

I LOVED THIS. SO MUCH FUN. eagerly waiting for pt2

[@Radbiker33357]

11:40 okay holy shit I thought it was just me that realized Herbert REALLY seriously goes back and retcons descriptions or just has a horrible way of keeping descriptions properly timed/consistent. It seems like a lot of stuff after Dune was an after thought after seeing the success of Dune. There are passages when people are described and then later in the book there’s something new that wasn’t mentioned before… but I’ve already got a solid picture of what they look like in my head so it’s a pain changing it. It also bugs me at times when he has people talking, and after a dialogue is said, it’ll say something like “he shouted in a commanding tone !” Like… I already read the dialogue in my voice the way it’s plainly typed, I can’t really go back and change the scene because he decided to add description AFTER it’s already been said and done… it’s a little weird. But might just be me nitpicking. Otherwise I absolutely love his world building and books.

[@KohanKilletz]

Apostraphes are often used to represent the Glottal Stop sounds in many languages when transcribed into the Latin alphabet. However, Herbert still uses it wrong. it should be Mu'addib, not Muad'dib. To me, that looks like the work of an editor trying to make the invented languages easier for english speakers.

[@stevenredpath9332]

We are still the target audience. Strange how that relates back to colonialism.

[@KohanKilletz]

@@stevenredpath9332 It is a frustration of mine how Arabs today don't read for pleasure, only for study. It keeps us ignorant

[@stevenredpath9332]

@@KohanKilletz it’s certainly not a cultural issue given the fantasy literature produced by Arabic writers but might be because of the suppression of such activities under foreign rule and then replaced by religious rule (especially the Abrahamic religions) seem to look down on such readings.

[@KohanKilletz]

@@stevenredpath9332 I wouldn't blame colonialism for the Arabic culture's later influence by the culture of laziness from the west taken to an extreme.

[@stevenredpath9332]

@@KohanKilletz I’m not really in a place to comment about that given my lack of knowledge and understanding but the loss of fictional literature/stories is sad because it’s needed for all of human societies. As Terry Pratchett put it, it’s where the falling angel meets the rising ape. And I, for one, would welcome either fantasy or science fiction from a non-western perspective.

[@BLACKPHILANTHROPY]

I LOVED the wolf chapters, some of his most evocative writing IMO

[@mil_enrama]

you know that if George were writing Chani he'd mention she was a red-head right away

[@westonmj14]

I can't believe I've never found this channel before now. Anyone who can talk in depth on Dune is a friend of mine. Great video

[@SilverScale.]

Missed this live, but boy oh boy, it's a good one! :)

[@violetsapphire952]

I love that in the background the chat ended up christening the two contestants as Gurm and Herb.

[@leohoffmanofficial1541]

Part 2 of this stream is the new Winds of Winter

[@Helloguys_c1p]

To this day, I still hope for a second part

[@ch6rpie]

Please finish this, love the comparative investigation!

[@xenozenith19]

Genuinely evil villain, fate as plot device, sex, multiple povs and orphans are not inherently bad at all. They can and have been executed perfectly in many stories. Where did hate for pure evil villains and sex come from is beyond me, others i can still understand

[@VaporsUnion]

Frank Herbert wasn't misusing apostrophes. I believe that he was using them to convey the the fact that those words or names have a glottal stop in them. Arabic, which is what a lot of the words and phrases in Dune are based on, uses glottal stops heavily. The best way to indicate that in common text form is to use an apostrophe. There is an official symbol used by linguists when conveying glottal stops, but the average person would not recognize that symbol. So instead we use apostrophes.

[@michielmanders9766]

Yes, and so he didn't get a point...

[@acommoncommenter9364]

52:20 you missed Septon Meribald's page long speech to Brienne and Podrick about 'broken man' in a Feast for Crows. It's a magnificent speech though.

[@tonerc.8191]

I like how this video ended in a bad writing trope where the two main characters tie in their final friendly duel.

[@realityisenough]

Spoiiler

[@sargonixofur1234]

Lots of things in common. Beards, long established writers, and dying before their magnum opus is finished….

[@pacotaco1246]

Yep. Absolutely.

[@dougdupont6134]

#11 was misunderstood. There's a common writing error in which action is described as happening "suddenly." E.g. "All of a sudden arrows flew from out of nowhere!" It regards the use of the word, not the suddenness of the plot moving forward. I sincerely doubt Herbert is guilty of this.

[@quirkyjoeAnimated]

Yeah this was weird - it suddenly felt like this guy was missing the point

[@elonif4125]

@@quirkyjoeAnimated Suddenly I think we can ding Alt Shwift X for that. He missed the point.

[@lynnlikewhoa]

we'll get part 2 when winds comes out

[@innerpadre]

Where is the second part?!

[@adolfopross7269]

2:28:50 I think that the exact opposite is used as a bad writting resource, in order to make a character's action a mistery or to make a conflict between characters. For example Tyrions and Cersei don't share their feelings about eachother and they end up hating and suffering.

[@dannywalsh2671]

Bran's first chapter shows Ned as a Lord first and a Father second, plus the execution of the deserter / the truth (White Walkers are back) and finding the direwolves. All extremely important, especially the ignorance of the news of white walkers - It shows Ned placing duty / law above the actual right thing to do.

[@brigittehuber9745]

Schwift, I have a question: Have either you or the other guy ever seen the "Fire and Ice" movie (the one from 1983 where humans battle the impersonated ice-age)? I would love to hear your opinion on how intense GRRM inhaled that movie for his ideas xD And also: Great idea! Love the format and hope you'll continue!

[@peterphillips4340]

I finished the original book Game of Thrones and found Ned, Tyrion, Jon Snow and Dani to be very interesting characters. The world Martin created is also very well done. Dune I was only ever able to finish by listening to it on Audible and if I'm honest a lot of it was a slog. I enjoyed Dune for its unique world and some of the philosophical segments, as well as its science fiction speculation. The issue with Dune is some of it has aged poorly and there are a lot of dense parts in it that just aren't supported by relatable or likeable characters, which makes it a chore to get through. Game of Thrones worked because it had likeable characters that helps you get through all the fluff. Much like Peter Jackson and the LOTR movies, I think the Dune movies would have benefited from a few creative alterations to make it translate well to cinema. On the other hand GoT translated so well to TV because it's written with character drama and lots of cliffhangers.

[@manuelcb1960]

I think it’s very subjective. It is true that sometimes Herbert's writing on prescience is dense. In general, both ASOIF and Herbert's universe, the first books, were very enjoyable and addictive. In my opinion, Dune, the first book, is better, but as a saga, Martin manages to maintain that balance between depth and ease so as not to lose the thread. Sorry for my english I needed to use the translator to explain myself better hahaha

[@dekuuchiha9990]

I wish I could like Dany. I ended up skipping her chapters on my 2 read

[@Arkain89]

couldn't agree more, Dune has definitely very interesting things and concepts that are fantastic to think about, but the execution is lacking, and some parts I found absolutely insufferable. when I was reading Children of Dune and I had yet another chapter of two "Bene Gesserit" characters talking nonsense at each other for several pages, not only did it feel too long to get to the point of the chapter, but also it was getting increasingly noticeable how a lot of characters seem to think, talk and act the exact same way, despite having apparently wildly different motivations. I also thought too many times "how does Paul FEEL about this maddening situation he's in", it's crazy that I still can't really tell what he actually wanted, as a person and not the "thing" he is. to me the best example of this is God-Emperor, I like to think about the book, but if I had to describe it, I'd say it's a beginning, a giant wasteland of a few hundred pages, and an ending that puts the previous books into perspective. been struggling through Heretics the same, but it's already a lot less captivating.

[@Arkain89]

@@manuelcb1960 I actually think the description of prescience was pretty great, and the thing that was the most well explained for the reader to truly understand how much of a curse it is. I think Messiah has a lot of flaws, but it certainly gets that thing across pretty well. my favorite example of this it's explained that even if Paul focuses on the "real present moment" that is happening to him right now, and not all the alternates he's seen, it gives him no pleasure to live through it because for each moment that manifests, a thousand others do not, from his perspective. thinking about that alone is very jarring. the second part of the Messiah I found to be really great specifically because it follows through with that idea very well.

[@hithedragon7842]

​@@Arkain89personally I found the philosophical stuff in Messiah much easier to understand than in the first book. Although it's possible that I had just gotten used to them by that point.

[@mcpw2004]

I think that a lot of epic scifi/fantasy authors use a similar scheme: a big/mysterious event in the prologue used to intrest the reader and then they slow down for the next few chapters and introduce the reader to the world

[@elonif4125]

Definitely. It’s probably the most sensible approach to such grand storys.

[@Mamillius-00]

#6 really makes sense; a novel can be way too generic when an author just goes with what the specific fan base expects. It should be unique, fresh, and well written.

[@fox2569]

Regain is an example of an extremely generic story but it’s well written and entertaining. Aside from Roran’s early chapters which were fucking boring.

[@bobbybee2975]

I love both series, honestly prefer aSoIaF over Dune, but unless or until George finishes his series he cannot be compared to those who have.

[@pacotaco1246]

I want him to but dont expect him to

[@GoldsteinsBook]

Technically, Herbert never finished Dune. He wanted to write a follow-up to Chapterhouse but died before he could.

[@bobbybee2975]

@@GoldsteinsBook really? I thought chapterhouse was a.decent ending but would have loved to see a bit more. Too bad.

[@GoldsteinsBook]

@@bobbybee2975 Herbert's son Brian and Kevin J. Anderson wrote two follow-ups to Chapterhouse called "Hunters of Dune" and "Sandworms of Dune" which were *supposedly* taken from notes Frank left behind for "Dune 7," but I take that with a grain of salt.

[@bobbybee2975]

@@GoldsteinsBook yeah I love Dune as much as Lord of the Rings or ASoIaF but I don't like other people trying to finish the original author's story. If I'd have known the wheel of time was finished by another person before I started reading it I may not have started the series. Alas it may be good I'm just not interested in what i consider to be little more than fan fiction. If you or others enjoy I am happy for you all I just tend to dislike the results of such works.

[@deponensvogel7261]

The English apostrophe which functions as a genitive marker is an anomaly. Usually, apostrophes are used to mark the absence of a vowel or syllable-which could very well be the case with Herbert's made up names.

[@HoneyPiss]

Wait- where's the 2nd part?

[@maaxross9894]

I had a big dumb smile on my face when Quinn showed up! Combine forces!

[@palanthas7063]

Timestamp?

[@maaxross9894]

@@palanthas7063 Christ, i cant remember, it was in the first hour i think, but it wasn't a major thing, he just popped into the chat and Alt gave 'em a shoutout.

[@themonkeandthesnek9997]

I don’t know I think having an intense prologue and THEN 3 chapters where nothing happens is a cool way to keep the reader in suspense in a constant state of thought thinking “how does this come into play?!” It’s effective, honestly. Wheel of Time starts off that way. The first book’s prologue is wild.

[@Bassist-Beneath]

As someone who has just recently started Dune, thank you so much for the spoiler warnings

[@pacotaco1246]

Its a bunch of sand and visions and politics oooweeeewooooo

[@Kuhmuhnistische_Partei]

I honestly love how one of the first chapters about Yueh is literally introduced by a quote from some dictionary that just goes like "Yueh, Wellington: briefly noted as traitor to Duke Leto" or something. Imagine watching Star Wars and the first time Darth Vader shows up there is just a little text in the corner saying "Darth Vader/Anakin Skywalker, father of Luke and Leia Skywalker, eventually killed the evil emperor".