GUILLIMAN'S INNER CONFLICT? THE RAVEN LORD'S VIEWS ON ROBOUTE!

[@silversurfer8818]

*Excerpt from the book: Corax* ‘I have heard that the primarch of the Ultramarines constantly tested his war theories and stratagems during the Great Crusade in the artificial constructs of metriculator engines, as well as with real warriors,’ replied the magos. ‘Even the most sophisticated simulation is crude compared to real war,’ remarked the primarch. ‘Guilliman tried to learn everything he could from the experiences of his brothers when he first met them. I was constantly vexing him with complaints that he focused too much on distinct military units, not taking into account possible civilian participation. To him there was a line between combatants and non-combatants that I did not see. Before our first encounter Guilliman’s treatises had been swift to rule out casualty-depleted combat forces as incapable, since he was so used to wielding whole battalions and Chapters rather than handfuls of warriors. I demonstrated the error of these beliefs on several occasions, creating effective resistance out of meagre resources that Roboute had considered no longer viable.’ ‘An occurrence to be proud of, I am sure,’ Kanar said evenly. ‘The cry of “no retreat” is meaningless to the Raven Guard,’ explained Corax, ‘a prideful boast rather than a sensible tactical doctrine. It was not until our third confrontation that Guilliman realised this for himself.’ ‘To best one of the greatest strategos in the Imperium is no mean feat. We are blessed by your attendance.’ ‘I make no such claim,’ Corax replied with a lopsided smile. ‘From the fourth simulation on, he had my mark and I could not beat him. He learns well, my brother, and he has far greater vision than me. While I was rescuing a single world from slavery, he was already building an empire of hundreds. I won battles against him, but never a war.’ Corax, P: 71

[@Matihood1]

A really comprehensive quote. Nice.

[@Nyghtking]

Imagine what would have happened if Guiliman became the chosen of chaos instead of Horus, that could have been so much worse for the impirium since it seems according to this they would only be able to win so many battles against him before he would adapt.

[@battlemastergenkhan4622]

@@Nyghtking here's the thing though. horus was also tactically efficient. the further he fell to chaos, the less effective he became. guilliman would likely lose the nuance of his strategies throwing more bodies at the enemy.

[@Ryuzakku]

@@battlemastergenkhan4622 Yet he used Terran Raven Guard as a front-line and not as a stealth force. Though he did make good use of their terror tactics, which is why Corax hated them.

[@jamesespinosa690]

This quote give me goosebumbs. It's a damn shame what Matt Ward created with his cheesyness. Because the Ultra's are fucking awesome!

[@Timasion]

I'll quote Horus: 'Some think he [Guilliman] has no heart for war, that all he cares about are grand plans and stratagems. They're wrong. He knows war as well as I do, he just wishes he didn't.' Of all the primarchs, Guilliman is probably the one who is most well read with the exception of Magnus. And Magnus was focused on one particular area of study. Guilliman undoubtedly read every book available on war in the libraries of Macragge. So, he is sure to come across a book known as "The Art of War" or one of its variants. And what is the most famous lesson from that book? 'If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles.' Roboute will have known himself and what he is. He tries to resist his nature to go to war because he knows that is not always the best option. 'Control your humours,' Konor had told him. 'You are mightier in every regard than any man, and that includes your passions. Master them, or you will fail.' Konor Guilliman, the man that Roboute regards as his true father, told him to control those passions that plague all the Primarchs. Contrary to what Corvus thinks, they are not hidden; they are controlled. Guilliman has allowed them to slip. His killing of Word Bearers on the surface of Macragge's Honour rather than going back into the ship to take command. His fight with Fulgrim. In some regards, he views those losses of control as failures, especially the one that almost got him killed by Fulgrim. Nonetheless, those feelings of war that he feels are controlled.

[@brockwilkie6022]

Overall this is spot on but we know the Lion gather libraries and tried to read as much as possible, Lorgar and Fulgrim probably as well. But yes I doubt many would have the wide range of reading that he had.

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

Good take, solid analysis. It also fits with his modern 40k version. In current time Guilliman is so stressed and burdened with Administration, that he seeks out melee combat simply to relax. Almost like Angron used to...

[@Subject_Keter]

You can brutally break down things with Logic but Admin.. it breaks you lol

[@johnwebster3d]

I think Corax is pretty close to the truth, but it is more like Guilliman is perpetually at war with his own inner tyrant. He knows hubris and being seen for it would be bad for Ultramar, so he struggles against his arrogant nature as a primarch. He knows that giving in to his rage in battle leads to Angron's self destructive madness, so he holds himself back with rules and codexes and strategems. But he does not always win that internal fight. Sometimes his fondness for pomp and ceremony show through. And sometimes, like at Calth or when he had that fight with Fulgrim, he gives in to his (completely understandable) fury. This kind of leads in to one of the more personal tragedies of Guilliman's situation in the Dark Imperium. He wants to be the head of a senate, to engage in debate and discussion with a council of advisors, to listen to a lot of dissenting opinions as he makes carefully considered decisions. But as of 41k, humanity is just not capable of that. The High Lords might not be warp-corrupted, but they are every other kind of corrupt. And the citizens have been trained over generations to be unthinking cogs in Imperial war machines, utterly unable to even think about alternative points of view. Guilliman wants to run a senate... but he gets his best results when he does things like basically run a coup against the standing High Lords of terra, and then set political traps with the lord of assassins. So Guilliman is in a bind. It could be cataclysmic if he gives in to those tyrannical impulses to just rule mankind like he was his father. But if he does not, the alternative is letting another batch of corrupt high lords sink the Imperium into stasis and rot. No matter which side of the internal struggle wins, we all lose.

[@Matzkxmx]

It sounds like he is a Silver Dragon from DnD

[@heatherordonez1490]

I think some of Guilliman's idea comes from his adoptive family. The way a human thinks wouldn't necessarily be the same way a space marine, primarch or the Emperor thinks. He's probably frustrated with the fact that some of his brothers cannot think outside of their own tactics to see what another might do.

[@ecclesiaandune687]

On the start part, regarding the lack of animosity between Corax/Guilliman - i feel like i must be showing my age here, but the reason Guilliman/Jaghatai are my favourite primarchs are pretty much because of this - they just act like normal, adjusted grown ups. Don't seem to have the massive insecurities that need to have constant one upsmanship or glory or whatever of the other primarchs, they just react to things like adults, and get the job done. Maybe that's a boring reason but its kinda refreshing to me

[@jasonpatrignani4717]

I definitely think you hit on a solid point here. Guilliman is first and foremost a Warlord. There are multiple instances in the lore where Guilliman references Connor reminding him to control his anger, and in particular the moment where Michael stands in front of him after the trial and they talk about the fact that he could sense the anger buffeting him like a tsunami, and that there was a noise that came out of Guillimans throat that reminds him or a giant predatory beast. So I would definitely say that he routinely goes out of his way to fight his given nature to produce the face he give the wider imperium as a whole. I think that for all the affinity he has/had for the emperor that there is no question his heart belongs to his adopted father and the lessons he got from him. What makes me wonder in particular is what would it have been like if Guilliman and Perturabo had switched and Perty had been raised by the guy who showed compassion and restraint and praised the other arts? That would be an interesting aspect. Like what could Perturabo have built given the resources and capacity of McCrage and Ultramar?

[@-Gilver]

Very nice take and excellent point about Guilliman and Perturabo

[@Nyghtking]

It would be different yeah, but each primarch was also influenced by their gifts, Perturabo as an example instantly understood any technology he saw, and he was always the smartest person in the room so he never experienced discovery, which had an effect on his personality, guiliman didn't have that. I imagine guiliman would have been a much more morose, violent, and perhaps less trusting individual had be been raised on perturabo's home world, while perturabo would still have been disappointed but probably would have been a lot more stable of a person as he more then likely would have been allowed to express his creativity.

[@jasonpatrignani4717]

I think you just made my point. What would have happened in Perturabo had had the opportunity to be nurtured in a constructive environment without all the back stabbing and intrigue

[@JamieZero7]

@@jasonpatrignani4717 Perturabo was nurtured within a great envoirment. He was called son. he hated it even going into a massive mood for weeks in just being called son. When his stepfather says well done in drawings he destroys them.

[@jasonpatrignani4717]

He was raised in wealth for sure, but he hated his adopted father because the only things he ever developed that were created were the weapons. Also Olympia was more akin to the royal courts of Greece and England with the amount of back stabbing and selfish focus. My point is that had he been in Roboute’s position he may well have turned out some of the most incredible technology mankind had ever seen. Connor would have likely celebrated and invested in Perturabo’s passions for construction as much as of destruction, now the fact still remains that maybe Perturabo’s impatience could assert itself, but that goes back to the initial point that unlike the majority of the Primarchs, Guilliman actively suppresses his nature because he was raised to respect the importance of discourse and compromise. He discusses the difficulties of it all the time in the books

[@kingbaldwiniv5409]

Guy Haley did really well here, excellent read. Gav has a rare good line in Corax, Soul Forge. The navigator at the beginning of the epilog: Corax doubts what he even is, hearing the words from the traitor Nathrarkin, telling him he is a warp creature. It bothers him. He wonders what she sees when she looks at him with warp eye of her's The navigator responds as though he were speaking to her, "a good man, a good and loyal servant of the Emperor, nothing more, nothing less."

[@15DEAN1995]

Guilliman not having corax as part of his dauntless few seems even weirder to me with this

[@gobihoukou1]

Yeah, it is quite surprising, as they complement each other nicely. Great planner and logistician plus flexible scout / deep strike commander seems like good combo to me.

[@Pizza626]

Corax has always sufferred too much from depression and that can make someone unpredictable and unable to perform tasks they're meant to complete. So he's out of the Dauntless Few.

[@gobihoukou1]

@@Pizza626 Good point. Guilliman certainly did not want unpredictable elements in his machine, even if they might be otherwise advantageous.

[@colinbielat8558]

@@gobihoukou1 I think you also have to add to the fact that Corax was one of the last primarchs found and perhaps Guilliman had not had enough experience fighting alongside him to consider him a possibility. Guilliman is open to unpredictably as he did have Russ as one of the dauntless few but again that might be because he and russ have fought together multiple times and Guilliman understands how he will need to "direct" Russ to get the most optimal outcome. When you look at the dauntless few it looks like there should be one more force with an emphasis on close engagement, perhaps Corax was in consideration.

[@Sorrowborn]

Because making him one of the DAUNTLESS FEW....would have eroded and stifled Corax, the Raven works best alone and doing what he does best; by becoming 'part' of something with an oversight, Corax's abilities would have not been to their full potential. Roboute knew this and did not dare contravene his brother's greatest talents.

[@DefaultProphet]

I’m a simple man. I see Raven boy I click

[@huwtindall7096]

Unapologetic Guilliman fan here. He's the man (demi-god?) the Imperium needs. By luck of upbringing and the Emperor's design he's the only living Primarch who has a chance at holding all the Imperium's sh!t together. I love this excerpt with Corax as it shows that Guilliman is quite humble and that's he is always open to learning. He knows he doesn't know everything and is open to new perspective and ideas. A fantastic virtue in a leader. Next to Vulcan he is probably the most human of the Primarchs as well. He really cares about the average Joe in 40K.

[@xuanquang9815]

he's the most human. Vulcan is the most humane

[@Duppyman695]

Lord of Shadows is a great read, I do like Corax and Guillimans interactions!

[@MrMysticphantom]

Guilliman was ALSO built to administer, not just conquer. Administering though isnt always the same as ruling

[@TKUltra971]

Gulliman stated on more than one occasion that he sets up governments and leaves them to human leadership then has a desire to fuck off. So it makes sense.

[@silversurfer8818]

Guilliman once said that the Astartes excel at warfare, because they were made to excel in everything. Same thing applies to the Primarchs, anything they set their minds to will be done expertly.

[@romanplays1]

@@TKUltra971 he is a man who will lead until the world will run just fine without him. being self-sufficient. then fucks off to the next world to repeat this process.

[@gamble9437]

Pride is weakness. Arrogance is a weakness. Overbearing competitiveness is a weakness. Guilliman is smart enough to know this and try to hide personality traits that could be exploited.

[@justinhhp87]

Just two brothers hanging out playing video games, the way it could have been

[@RepthSeeker]

Horus knew this as well thats why and I quote ( He knows war he just wishes he didn't)

[@vontheunknown7982]

You should see Guilliman in the Horus heresy killing word Bearers one by one with his hands.

[@colinbielat8558]

Guilliman is a very good fighter, he has fought the most primarchs out of all the primarchs. He has fought all but two traitor primarchs Horus and Pertarabo. Anyone who can fight nearly all the traitor primarchs and still stay alive is a good fighter, especially when half of them were demon primarchs.

[@SittingOnEdgeman]

That actually happens when Calth happens - Rouboute gets blown out onto the hull of his flagship and he's just so enraged that he spends a while there just killing word bearers who were trying to sneak on board his flagship. Eventually he does get control of himself again. I think that's part of Guilliman as well - the Roman sense of honor, and the desire to annihilate and humiliate anything that tramples on it.

[@bobmckelvey7905]

Horus and Guilliman had a overlap in that they where diplomatic Korax clearly saw through it you have a point through on upbringing as it was Guillimans foster mother that prevented a Legion on Legion war between the 1st and 13th Legion when the Night Haunter triggered the drop pod assault during the opening ceremonies Of the 1st and 13th on McCargge Guillimans first reaction was to maintain the planetary shields and destroy the pods despite the Lions request to spare his sons, And this right after the Lion accused Roubete of treason or worse. Guilliman later bringing the Lion around to the idea of the second Imperium and his place in it . It is fun to remark that the Lion once he understood Guilliman never intended to be the Emperor of this endeavor quickly saw himself in that role , Where again you see Guilliman the diplomat explaining that the Lions secretive nature wouldn't be trusted by his brothers

[@davidkahil5158]

Guilliman has always been my favorite primarch, then Kurze, then Magnus

[@fedupN]

I don't think its hiding so much as mitigating. Guilliman has something few, if any, of the other Primarchs have: Self-Awareness. He had a MOTHER in his life, to say nothing of the robust teachings of Macragge. He is very human and takes lengths to be so. Despite, you know, being a transhuman creation. As stated in Courage and Honor (I think, its been awhile), he often feels like he has to apologize for his successes, for his empire. I don't think its being at war with aspects of himself, I think he is being careful. He is fully aware of what he is, what he can do, and the hazards of egoism and unfettered rage. One of Guilliman's greatest strengths is an ability to analyze and adapt, to change with new information. Like when Corax beat him and Guilliman changed his views on civilian and under strength units. When it turned out Legions COULD turn on each other, he adapted. Combined with his self reflection, it makes him a very human and complete Pimarch.

[@brockwilkie6022]

I think the best Primarchs know what they are, superweapons of war, and are almost saddened by it. In a way they see themselves as less than regular humans, while still having that inate Primarch superiority. As such they try to be more than just what they are made to be, and try to get their brothers to do the same. Guilliman is obvious here but we see Dorn asking Konrad to do the same. Horus knows Sanguinius won't be turned because he knows he is more than the poster boy and deeply knows his flaws. Meanwhile some only live for war and only focus on their specialty, they could be more well rounded fighters but choose to be so narrow in their approach.

[@AnikaJarlsdottr]

the difference in fighting styles between Rowboat and Birb Boi is important to consider. Corax is a hunter, used to raiding and ambushes to take the foe unawares. he has the luxury of getting the jump on his foes, crushing localised planetary forces and vanishing. this style of warfare makes it very difficult to learn how to counter as there are usually no survivors to pass on information. the important factor of raiding and insurgant warfare is making sure that your opponent never has enough of an idea of what is going on to be able to preempt your moves. Guilleman on the other hand is a consumate tactician, using logic and strategy to fight on a systemwide scale. that kind of martial leader can, if provided with information from the boots on the ground, formulate a plan to counter anything but the most illogical of strategies. that being said, if they can learn to factor in the seemingly random nature of certain foes, they could even counter that. the important factor again is intelligence, without which even the greatest tactician is blind to his foes. thats why, imho, corax won handily in the early sims but then failed to win another campaign after the 3rd as guilleman had figured out his tricks and factored them into his plans. or something like that, I am no professional analyst so feel free to ignore my rambling.

[@SittingOnEdgeman]

Corax's Primarch book, being valuable but overlooked? Talk about thematic.

[@Born-Bitter]

So on brand for The Dark One

[@morgs456]

Aw man, the raven has to come out the warp and reunite soon

[@deno7236]

Guilliman feels like Paarthurnax from Skyrim to me. It is in his nature to dominate, but he choose to not do that. He tries his best to be humble, but he just isn't a normal human.

[@Subject_Keter]

It would be so easy to start cleaving but despite how benetifcal it would be... you might lose the veil of Hero into Villian. It one thing to be Powerful but to show your might without needlessly shattering everything is something else and way more impressive. Aka sneak or nonlethal runs in a game.

[@Nyghtking]

Yup, Guilliman even went so far as to meet with average people and listen to what they had to say, even though he was so much more then they were and it would have been easy to disregard them.

[@Raptorrat]

12:00 "primarchs aren't made for debate, for discourse" Lorgar and Magnus: "are we jokes to you?" Heh, more then half of them won't shut up, if you gave them the chance. I don't think that hide, Corax's view, is the right word. More a trying to be better then his Cruder nature. Always looking for the best way, the more noble solution. Like fulgrim, he's a perfectionist. But more realistic, and indeed stoic in nature. But if and when he let's loose, he's a CQ beast, like all his brothers.

[@bcliff9110]

Great wolf lord rho, with all due respect and humility may I request that you do a video on Sigismund, just finished it and had all my expectations blown away to have an inner look at one of the most devoted and respected of all the emperors champions, I would love to hear your take on this book! From your humble servant and Kaerl. 🦅 ( that's the best I can do for an Aquila!)

[@ivylt1274]

This just makes me think what would have happened to Gman if he landed on Nuceria, Nostramo or any of those dreaded worlds where his other brothers unfortunately landed upon. I highly doubt Gman would be the same primarch if he did.

[@painlord2k]

Anyone but Angron would have thrived on Nuceria. He was implanted the Butcher's Nails because he didn't wanted to fight. All others are much more pragmatics.

[@khazngray]

Its weird that space marines thought they'd never fight each other but constantly ran simulations against each other and either killed each other such as in the night of the wolf, or were about too many times during the great crusade.

[@logandelaharpe6362]

Hope for the best prepare for the worst

[@willowravenwright5518]

My two absolute favourite Primarchs!

[@jamesespinosa690]

I now wonder how Corax would have fared against The Lord of Iron!?!?!?!?!?!? I kind of picture the Iron Warriors being paranoid enough to double, triple, quadruple layer their security knowing that the Raven Guard are assassins. You have to remember Perturabo survived several assassination attempts 'growing up'.

[@Subject_Keter]

I think Gulliman is abit like "This is who I am but I must show a Good Face to everyone since I am basically the Poster Child." All the other Legions are frankly kinda weirdos to us and they are who they are but they take that in stride while Ultramarines imo have always been the "Nicer" guys you would probably want to save you if you could choose. I cant explain it xwx

[@lordpfeiffer8490]

I think it's because girlymen is the only fucker who retained some sort of humanity outside maybe magas the red.

[@paxromana9709]

I'm not sure about Guilliman trying to hide parts of his nature (well not just that). I think he also tries to actively go gainst parts of his nature.

[@timothylyons5686]

If, as supposed, Trayzan did speak not only to Gulliman but also to the Emperor, warning them both of the Tau and the Tyranids l believe the Emperor would have been fine with Gulliman's lmperial Secundus as a mustering point for dealing with the Tyranids.

[@christopherhartford5066]

I feel like G-man has the ability to adapt to any strategy. He's literally the embodiment of 'what doesn't kill you makes you stronger.' As in, if he fought Mortarion, he could beat him having lost to him once before. That seems to be his other super power. You have Corvis and Rogal who might be better at base. But G-man will only loose so many times before he just simply can't loose.

[@WisdomofWarhammer]

Maybe Gilliman misses corax due to corax owning what he is and taking pride in his role.

[@Jaszunai]

The Primarchs were made to lead their legions, which were enormous, so the Emperor would have intended for them to have very high leadership and logistics capabilities. I think after the Great Crusade, Guilliman would have been allowed to rule over Ultramar and the nearby planets, but been given the role of a diplomat and mediator to keep him busy.

[@Commonwealth_Imperium]

I disagree on the war and governance conflict, because Roboute is more akin if to a Roman God it's Minerva whom is different to Bellona and Mars.

[@alanaspinall7147]

Also we have to remember RG also had both a loving mother as well a father, I think it part of the reason he so normal

[@Shadowrecon122]

I could be wrong, but is there not a section of the same book, in which Corax talks about 'after the crusade' and how he woild enjoy the peace? Im sure its in one of his books...

[@daltonbalusek]

It was in Deliverance Lost I believe

[@Kristian.B.Kristiansen]

This book has many interesting features and points, but it overall lacks something. Corax's rage and nature are well described, but it doesn't really fit with other books. Only in this book and one more short story are their relationship ever mentioned. could have been great, but just kinda aren't.

[@gobihoukou1]

Agreed. Overall, I liked that book, I would even say it is one of the better primarch series novels, but it felt like it could have been even better.

[@CrimsonTemplar2]

Good video

[@NemFX]

Is it lost tech? Perturabo has a ton of holographic technology and plays simulations/games with his legion a lot

[@IRdatank]

I've been following this channel for a bit now. Correct me if I'm wrong here. I noticed a speech impediment in you when I started watching. I've seen a massive improvement over the months and I'm proud of you

[@blinkingred]

Sounds like the corax novel is a Guiliman novel

[@sevlow4048]

Okay but why the fuck are they fighting but then theil gets red helms by gulliman. Wtf

[@jacklang3314]

They’re basically playing vr Total War not organising tactics for killing Astartes. Don’t think Astartes are even involved in the simulation.

[@metallixro]

I think any Primarch can beat any other Primarch in a life or death situation. Its not like a best out of 5..

[@erihor86]

Besides Lorgar of course, lol

[@licensed_beheader]

Except when you are the lion or sanguinius or leman russ.

[@6036000]

It's some Jordan Peterson stuff. Like "be a monster but contain it, not be weak and lash out"

[@carlosfreitas1722]

Corax is absolutely right

[@nikolaidetrick7593]

Ayyyyee

[@leofindel]

Guilliman the Hipocrite, is more his character

[@Licmebro]

How?

[@leofindel]

@@Licmebro read the first book of dark imperium, wolftime and emperors spears.

[@rikkikarrylmabayo2504]

@@leofindel learning from your mistakes is not hypocrisy, it means you are open minded. He thinks legion breaking is good at that time and then come pass 10k years he realizes it isn't so he admits its a mistake and fixes it. Only idiots think this is hypocrisy. Intelligent people call it being pragmatic and flexible. Being a hypocrite is being like SW who despises psykers and hates thousand sons yet they have psykers of their own via rune priests. Being a hypocrite means you disapprove of something yet you yourself does it. Gman didn't do that, he realizes his mistake and made it so that every founding legion and their succesor chapter will have the same treatment.

[@leofindel]

@@rikkikarrylmabayo2504 he installed 30 thousand marines in his "imperium secundus" and still doesnt revoke or oficially increase the chapters sizes,imperial guard regiments of macragge never leave or go help outside of "their empire" and he aldready build another imperium secundus again while pretending to suffer from the guilt of the first one. That guy bends the rules when it comes to him, but enforce it to others. In the primaris marines issue gabriel seth was right, and the book wolftime confirms it.