Can Chapter 2's Ending Tell Us Something About Determination In Deltarune?

[@trondordoesstuff]

19:10 Actually, after Asriel removes every single soul from his body, the souls' power still lingers for at least a few hours for him to retain his form. Now, this might not be Determination per se, since he still has it as a flower, but it still is an attribute generated by the soul and so.. maybe true.

[@guiltyflygon]

That's true! It could still have implications for "not a soul thing" theory as well given that we give Asriel a lot of reason to want to keep living in the true pacifist fight. I guess we could maybe consider it an "undying" form like Undyne's... If it ends up mattering of course.

[@ICountFrom0]

I think 3 (of the 4) might be the way to look. The soul might be a generator of determination, KRIS just has to put it back into himself before he's out of determination. It's like holding your breath, while your body tries to disolve....

[@krisdeluxe4417]

@@ICountFrom0 I really like the comparison to holding your breath. ...Especially since Determination's whole thing is holding on.

[@Volian0]

What's interesting for me is the description of the "Last Dream" item in Undertale. It reads: ' The goal of "Determination." ' And when we use the item: "Through DETERMINATION, the dream became true." If we think about Dark Worlds as dreams (which I don't think is too far off, because when we sleep, we wake up in the dark world and those worlds are kinda dream-like), the description really starts to make sense, because by using the power of DT these dark worlds really "become true" until they're sealed. The wording ' The GOAL of "Determination." ' is also interesting, because it kind of implies that determination only exists to create dreams (dark worlds), but maybe I'm reading too much into it :p

[@TheSkyGuy77]

The Determination to make dreams into reality. Creating art, basically.

[@guiltyflygon]

Very, very interesting ;)

[@comic_jack.6020]

"Only eyes blinded by darkness may see the way..." If we take in the metaphor of dark worlds being the equivalent to dreams. We could say that by what the first puzzle meant in Chapter 1 is that by "Eyes blinded by darkness" is a metaphor to the first thing you do before you start dreaming. Closing your eyes!

[@embryodemocracy1275]

A Deltarune theory video longer than 10 minutes? Sign me up

[@aangeles21]

Just watch jarujaruj lol

[@TheSoulCalledZuzia]

@@aangeles21 good option until you'll watch all of them (its me)

[@mrfrog0913]

I think the soul is responsible for producing DT and it's stored in somewhere else, like the brain. But thats just my *HEAD* cannon.

[@BBK113]

I see what you did there

[@basicmountaingriff]

"bunker" "same experiment" it would be really interesting if it turned out Deltarune had a vaguely True Lab style arc where you had to find out what happened in the bunker, as some kind of optional chapter

[@trondordoesstuff]

Determination in Undertale is pretty obviously a soul thing; Alphys extracts it from human souls, says that its existence within those souls is the reason they don't shatter, and it's an actual physical substance and not just a conceptual-emotional thing. In Deltarune, this can't necessarily be proved as rigorously, but it's still connected to the souls. The librarby book posits that the soul may be "The source of our will", though it is still couched in the langauge of speculation - but Ralsei gives us an outright statement, helpfully informing us "* That's your SOUL, the culmination of your being! * Within, it holds your WILL... your COMPASSION..." along with an unused version of his dialogue that goes one step further (which can't be called canon anymore, but still shows us the space Toby was working in when he wrote the line) with "* But it also has the power to DETERMINE FATE." Of the theories presented in this video, I'd be inclined to believe Residual Determination, purely in that I don't think this matters much - "Kris opens the Fountain after removing their soul" is not a hole I think needs to be filled; we already know Determination is held in bodies (the bodies of the Amalgamates, Flowey's body) and can last effectively forever within those bodies (Flowey doesn't seem to lose a grip with time, for instance); so all that would need to be true is that the SOUL is actively radiating or pumping determination out through the rest of the body.

[@trondordoesstuff]

I suppose another way of looking at things is that DT is clearly connected to souls, but that there's otherwise not much difference between "residual DT theory" and "DT isn't a soul thing" theory. Determination's usage as "resolve" and its useage as a physical substance are both true and deeply intertwined and also kinda wacky, I can see why this is a difficult thing to talk about - it's technically noteworthy that we don't know whether it's purely "resolve" or the physical substance that allows the creation of Fountains in deltarune's world.

[@trondordoesstuff]

I do like the analysis of what the Red Soul is though. But also there's the fact that Chara's soul was red (as we know from their coffin) and we don't exactly play as them; it might not be exactly what you posited, but I do agree it's something close.

[@guiltyflygon]

Perhaps I could've gone harder on it, but a large chunk of the "DT isn't a soul thing" theory is surmising that Alphys is wrong in her research. She only ever studied DT in dead things (the human souls, dying monsters) and so some of her conclusions may be false. For example, her assumption that DT comes from the soul is based on her extracted DT from a human soul. The problem being that all that was left of the human WAS A SOUL. Alphys never studied a living human to see if that theory held water. (At least not that we can see) Her assumption that monsters can't handle DT is also pretty sketchy given that Undyne seems to handle it just fine until she's defeated. Her only test case being dying monsters really casts some doubt on that research. There is definitely a chance that the DT that Alphys coined isn't the same as "the will" that I ended up ranting about though. Even in that case though, that'd make Alphys's research an annoyance for understanding this again lol.

[@embryodemocracy1275]

Wait is it actually still a librarby in Deltarune? Cause that's hilarious if so.

[@drewpatterson7917]

​@@guiltyflygon I think Alphys conclusion about monsters and determination is more-so that monsters can only handle so much determination before it begins to erode their bodies - she injected a lot more than she initially intended to because she "wasn't sure what else to do." Additionally, in the Neutral Route, Undyne does not "handle it just fine," after it becomes "active" so to speak, it clearly causes her form to begin to melt before she turns to dust - if she had a bit more determination she may have just continued to melt without dying.

[@idontknow-sh4bj]

23:00 An idea that just came to mind is maybe the monsters in Undertale do have determination too / are capable of it. But because they've been stuck down in the mountain for centuries they lost it.

[@TheSkyGuy77]

The monsters in Undertale literally only survive by not losing hope and the will to live.... ...no wonder Asgore tried to get everyone's hopes up..... 😢

[@cwolf0915]

The fact that kris can even snatch their soul out within the light world should imply that magic can and does exist in the light world, but apparently no one is allowed or has been banned from using it. The way he goes about taking it out the way he does means: 1. They can use magic 2. Humans can use magic in light world 3. Humans can't use magic in dark world 4. No evidence of blood or physical damage to their body that's noticeable by

[@guiltyflygon]

I guess the question comes down to if removing the soul is magic or DT related. Though from the opening cutscene of Undertale and the existence of the barrier we do know at least some humans could use magic there, so it could be true in Deltarune as well.

[@TheSkyGuy77]

Kris basically did some occult shenanigans and now knows how to rip out the SOUL, but not how to be rid of it permanently.

[@ChannelsName]

This doesn't realy have much to do with the video, but i hate when people act like deltarune HAS TO follow the rules established in Undertale, we have so much evidence that Undertale and deltarune follow different rules, a few examples are monsters being implied to have determination by queen, magic is seemingly not being a thing in the light world (toriel uses the stove to make pie and Noelle saying that spell are only a thing in the dark world), monster being implied to be able to bleed by Susie in chapter 1, so that's why it annoys me when people say things like "birdly didn't die in sowngrave because he didn't turn to dust"

[@zbrodie]

To be fair, the graveyard scene with Alvin indicates that monsters still turn to dust when they die

[@maxmanly3122]

In my opinion, Noelle is picked by Queen for the same reason that Kris can make her do the weird route. She is the perfect peon. Very susceptible to suggestion. Kris is probably way too defiant looking. Dude just stands there menacingly. She arguably entertained Berdley as a peon until he revealed his true gamerscore. Berdley seems to be able to create a Dark World in the Cyberworld so maybe Queen is using Noelle as a vessel the same way we use Kris. She uses the word Peon but this is the same as a Vessel. I think monsters having DT makes perfect sense because even in Undertale, we are told all the monsters are hopeless. They've lived in the Underground for so long that they have a whole set of ruins that have been abandoned long ago. the monsters had no hope or determination left. the most optimistic/goofy/positive characters are able to put up a better fight and Undyne is nearly able to use DT. Almost everyone else wears a fake smile to hide their despair. I'm just onto the conspiracy portion now so imma enjoy this college lecture

[@guiltyflygon]

Funny how we had the same thought about the hopelessness of the monsters affecting their DT lol. On the topic of Noelle, there is a conversation during the car ride with Queen (after the Spamton fight) where Noelle also assumes Queen wants her to be her peon because she's weak-willed, but Queen corrects her and says she really wants Noelle because she's strong. Unfortunately the conversation gets interrupted so we have no idea what that means... But it seems Noelle's pushover personality wasn't the reason. Her relationship with Berdley is even more unknowable lol. But during her speech about determination she doesn't use a picture of Berdley at all. That may just be because he's currently unconscious at the time though lol.

[@ProtoTerra]

Nah hes not unconscious, im pretty sure! That was a sorta joke to get susie to kiss him, as soon after he does grab everyone from the dark world to cyber zord it up

[@maxmanly3122]

@@guiltyflygon i was typing it out just as you started expanding on the idea in the video. you planted the idea in my head, then harvested it the very next sentence. I had just replayed that part with Queen in the car last night and i just remembered at the beginning of the Cyber World, Noelle has pretty handedly defeated the Darkners. She obviously displayed a lot of power just before we enter and she shows the full extent in the weird route. I think her ability to take orders isn't just about her being a pushover because she is able to carry out orders even when she doesnt know how. Now this is either because she has already visited a Dark World and has used all these abilities previously but has somehow forgotten or repressed the memories or that she somehow can carry out orders that should be beyond her through determination alone. Berdley is really strong too so I understand why Queen entertained him. Maybe I'm just bad at the game but Berdley fights are pretty tough. However, Berdley already knows what he wants from a Dark World. Queen cannot use Berdley as an effective vessel because he is determined to create a Smartopia whereas Queen needs someone who she can channel her will through. Kris isn't weak either but he is enacting the players will. I think Queen in particular was looking for a Lightner both strong enough to open a Dark Fountain while also being pliable enough to be used as a vessel, or a peon. I think the word "peon" is super important. it implies more control than just soldier or pawn (to me anyway) anywaaaay, i might have gone off topic, need to organise these thoughts. great vid, really got my brain going and i love the casual lecturer presentation. your discussions always get me thinking

[@Flynnisthename]

Residual determination is a thing! You can talk to Asriel post him removing his souls

[@guiltyflygon]

Right, I always miss something extremely important in these lol. Asriel/Flowey is a really hard case to judge from because he was injected with additional DT. I seem to remember a line where he says he's still holding onto some of the power from everyone but I can't find it now... In terms of the other theories, it's possible to consider Asirel's return as an "Undying" form like Undyne the Undying which is powered by the extremes of battle, (a heightened sense of the "will to keep living" or maybe just the extra souls they had contributing to their will) hence why it won't last forever. There's also the possibility that seeing everyone they cared about hopeful again was enough to spark enough will/resolve in Asriel to last in his old form for a while, but that's more conspiracy corner talk, so I'll stop now lol.

[@theflyingspaget]

​@@guiltyflygon"Without the power of everyone's souls... I can't keep maintaining this form." The implication is that the form was already created with the soul power but requires power to keep going, rather than it being that he's holding onto the last vestiges of power. Or maybe I'm reading it wrong. Unrelated note, while looking for the quote I found that Asriel's error placeholder text is not bepis as it is with everyone else, but *ultimate bepis*

[@Blastanker]

Listening to Random long Deltarune theory videos are my favourite way to spend my time at work

[@spilledpaints3783]

Just when my brainrot needed him most, hes back with another theory! You make the wait much more bearable for chapters! I like the casual presentation of the video too. Keep it up! ❤

[@captain_lisa4688]

I think it would be cool if Toby Fox played around with the saving menu in the future games, maybe we lose the ability to save like we do during the Flowey fight?

[@CalamitasCalliope]

I always love to see more theories. I also love to see more Ralsei/Kris connections. I usually go with the simpler way of saying that Ralsei is the horn headband, but that other option you suggested is also really cool. Going with the option you suggested, of Ralsei being Kris' soulless body reanimated, then I would think that this event happened pretty early in their life. Possibly even connected to whatever happened at the bunker/Dess' disappearance. I like to see Ralsei as who Kris wanted to be in order to fit in when they were younger. You could call him Kris' fursona if you want to be funny, but in a more serious way it could be a reflection of their alienation from their human side and the otherness they feel being in a town of monsters. You could even dig into the fact that Ralsei uses male pronouns to be an even deeper desire to fit in(though that one is a bit more of a stretch since there is zero sign of transphobia in the world. Hell, the entire ghost type of monsters uses gender neutral pronouns by default). If that were true, it would explain why Kris is a bit uneasy with Ralsei. He's a representation of a bad time in Kris' life where they wanted to be someone else, a time they have seemingly moved past since they aren't wearing the horns anymore(and if that is because they lost the horns to create Ralsei they still haven't bothered to get a new pair).

[@guiltyflygon]

Yeah, Ralsei definitely has the vibes of a younger version of Kris if he is a version of Kris. There's a section near the end of my first theory about why I think he'd manifest this way which you can check out for more details but the sparknotes are: -Darkners seem to be formed from connotations, aka the way people think about objects (either society at large or the lightners in the room... Maybe both) For example Rouxls Kaard is a rules card, the connotations of one are being overly verbose and useless as a card in any game, so Rouxls is the way he is. -the connotations around Kris are very Ralsei like. (Lonely, Dreemurr kid, red horn headband, etc.) -therefore if a darkner were to come from Kris it should be based on people's connotations of Kris, which would end up resembling Ralsei a lot in my opinion.

[@gristen]

theres was a book written by one of toby's friends about the process of translating undertale into japanese, that actually was approved by toby and has quotes from him in it. in that book it was revealed that determination is actually a pun: de-termination (the prefix "de-" meaning the opposite or removal of something, and "termination" meaning death obviously). alphys calls the stuff in human souls this because its what allows them to persist after death. this word was translated into japanese as ketsui. ketsui means the same thing as the english word determination, but its typically spelled with hiragana (けつい) or with kanji (決意). in undertale, ketsui is spelled with katakana (ケツイ) which is typically reserved for foreign loan words or to give emphasis to a word. because katakana is phonetic, this means that the "termination" pun is also somewhat present in japanese as "tsui" (spelled in kanji as 終) means "end of life/death". i say all this because the determination that queen mentions is also ketsui written in katakana, so we're obviously supposed to draw some kind of connection between the power of determination in both games. though this could very likely be a red herring to throw us off from what determination actually means within deltarune. slightly off topic but this book also revealed that frisk's power to save was not their own, but something they can only do thanks to the player's/chara's connection to them (remember, it's the player's/chara's name on the save file, not frisk's). frisk alone did not have enough determination to save on their own. my theory for what determination is in deltarune is that its actually related to the philosophy of "determinism". determinism is considered to be in direct opposition to the philosophy of "free will", a core concept in deltarune. its also heavily related to the many-worlds interpretation. the power of determination in deltarune is described as the power to create a new (dark) world, which mirrors the determinism of the many-worlds interpretation. in undertale, saving was seen in-universe as a time travel ability, the 3 save files in deltarune could very likely actually be parallel universes and saving and moving between them would be like traveling to alternate realities. this already seems to be hinted at as content in asriel's dresser in i believe chapter 1 differs depending on the save file you're using. not to mention deltarune is already in itself a parallel universe of undertale. should also note that determinism in japanese (決定論) begins with the same kanji as determination (決意), so these concepts are related in japanese as well.

[@gristen]

forgot to mention but the book is called "legends of localization: undertale". jaru jaru recently made a good video about it, i highly recommend checking it out

[@guiltyflygon]

Yes, I know 😅 Unfortunately for me I published this video like two days before Jaru's video lol. I'm working on a follow up though.

[@Aura_Mancer]

the vibe of "to hell with video editing, I'm gonna talk over slides" puts into perspective we all love to consume or maybe make, that we are just giving presentation and talks and essays. Videogame essays is a term but using PowerPoint like if it's class or a teacher makes it so damn clear it's kinda jarring in a good way, lol

[@GwainSagaFanChannel]

33:09 this slide makes some really interesting points I have not seen other theorists point out thanks for bringing it up in your theory video

[@hi-ougidemonfang]

19:50 I like the idea of a soul charge, cause if kris is just building up determination by having us inside, It would explain many issues with him as a possible antagonist. Not that I necessarily believe he is one, it just opens the door. 22:16 one could say the power is “you-ness”, or the “determination to be oneself” despite adversity.

[@guiltyflygon]

The determination to be oneself fits especially well with Kris lol. Given we are changing the way they act almost completely.

[@brastionskywarrior6951]

Your impressions are the best part of these videos. You should do a playthrough of deltarune where you do all the voiceovers. Man would that get old fast

[@guiltyflygon]

I can't tell if this is a backhanded compliment or what 😅

[@hades_head_empty]

i mean, this might be said later in the video, but just putting my opinion prior to watching here. and i'll update with what changes i guess? but yeah, i think what ralsei established is that you only need to be a lightner to make a fountain. like it doesn't require a soul per se, just determination and being from the light world.

[@guiltyflygon]

Right, I guess the premise the video is moreso implying is that determination (the substance) comes from the soul. (Or not in the case of the fourth theory) Undertale heavily implies that it does, (Alphys isolates determination by taking it from a human soul, Flowey is able to absorb more determination by absorbing more souls, etc.) and Deltarune sort of implies it. (The "light inside your soul," your soul shines that light on the party during the boss fights to power them up, Lightners possess a soul whereas Darkners do not, perhaps explaining why only Lightners can create fountains, etc.) so it's at least worth examining. I would say it was definitely possible to read it as Determination coming from the whole body, not just the soul, but the translation book that came out that I tackled in the sequel to this video kind of kiboshed that. It states that it's actually the player's determination in Undertale that allows Frisk to save and load, and given the relationship between Kris and the player in Deltarune, it seems like at least our DT is within the red soul Kris keeps removing.

[@sulphurspanic26]

I like the idea of the red soul equating to control, as in the past, during the events of the noelle blog Kris acts pretty weird when Susie acts mean. And seems to know where Noelle is located, despite having no reason to know she's in the locker, Noelle also mentions freezing still, althoguh this could just her being horny/scared due to susie. But the point is, if kris had the "Leader" abillties before snowgrave these could be attributed to the Red Soul and its asscoiated attribute.

[@aimfulRenegade]

my theory is souls produce determination, but it's stored somewhere else. so kris has some determination without the soul, but would eventually run out if they kept making fountains. if kris knight theory is true, this could potentially explain why the knight is only able to make one fountain a day.

[@idontknow-sh4bj]

Super interesting theory on the red soul.

[@B4K4xNi]

19:14 Guilty, snarky as fuck for some reason: Heh, yeah, no ine has ever been able to hold Determination in their body without a SOUL before Guulty, two minutes earlier: So Flowey contains a tin if determination, we all know this.

[@guiltyflygon]

I'm talking about different things, that's why I separated them into two categories. Flowey was injected with additional DT and has no soul, (the usual vessel for DT as far as we know) while Kris just took their soul out. Shouldn't Kris's soul still contain all of Kris's DT? If not, then why was there DT in the human souls after death for Alphys to give to Flowey in the first place? And, to be clear, it could be either interpretations. BUT they're definitely different interpretations.

[@tearsofthekingdom9062]

Ok I think the souls are important because our protagonists all have something to do with a soul, Susie has a yellow soul which I think fits her. Yellow is justice, and Susie does what she does because of justice. In the Card Kingdom when Lancer “betrays” us, Susie brings justice as she sees it. Ralsie has a black heart on his cloak we don’t know what it means, it could be that all darkners have black souls being made of darkness, or it could be that Ralsie doesn’t have a soul because he is a darkner and instead of being dependent on a soul like lightners, he is dependent upon the fountains which are dark. Kris ofcourse has the only Soul we really see.

[@fdzs]

Wait what if actually something happend with Kris, so he died and Asriel took his soul (not on purpose) and to save kris inside of him was injected soul of a different human? Maybe even of a human who we tried to create on start of chapter 1 as a vessel. Basically same happend in UT, but Asriel with human soul was quickly killed by humans, because people were afraid of a monster, since between monsters and people happend war in UT timeline. Maybe in DT world story went other way? After some incident with Kris to try to save him inside of Kris body was injected soul of a different human or something like this. That's why Kris body is trying to reject this soul, but it also dont want to die, so he has to keep it inside of them, although he really dont like it (bird jail in his room surely was used to drop the soul multiple times) This also could explain why our red soul unable to save on the light world, since in this world exist much more powerful creature (Asriel with kris soul, who is surely have much more DT than anyone)

[@JonathanMeyer-o4m]

when you mentioned that monsters might lose all of their determination if they lose their "will to live" well will to live could be rebranded as hope. and then it brought me back to HalfBreadChaos's theory that HP stands for Hope. so with the union of your two theories. HP means Determination, at least to monsters so when a monster gives up after sustaining too much damage, they stop using their own determination and then their soul fizzles out am i making any sense?

[@captain_lisa4688]

I love the powerpoint style of presentation

[@zeo4481]

This video is missing a huge point about Deltarune. This is OUR soul. For all we know Kris didn't have one at the point we arrived as this may not be the first thing that happened (aka Ch1 may not be Ch1)

[@guiltyflygon]

The be fair, this video is about a time when Kris has removed the soul, so who's soul it is doesn't really matter in this case. It's more about the mechanics of Determination and the soul generally, whether it contains DT, etc. We also don't technically have any concrete evidence the soul is actually the player's yet, just a good amount of allusions to it. It could even be that the soul is being controlled by the player but it's still Kris's soul, or a soul made for us by Gaster. There's a lot of possibilities at this stage in the game.

[@TheSoulCalledZuzia]

​@@guiltyflygon I think the fact that the soul seems to be following the player (see: that one cutscene where Susie fights Lancer) is a good evidence for the player's soul theory Considering that neither character seems to have a soul on their own (except for Kris, but then again it may as well be player's soul) and yet many of them are confirmed to have DT strongly suggests that DT isn't connected to having a soul. UT world functions differently to DR's one, so it wouldn't be surprising, imo

[@bagaboo4746]

I wish someone would do a video on the homestuck carry overs between Undertale and deltarune because i may be ceazy but i keep thinking i find one.

[@Gay_Nerd99]

I’ve always though the red soul was the player’s (it can’t be Kris’s since we saw the same red soul in undertale) and the player’s soul took over Kris’s body and Kris is using their own soul to make the fountain

[@Volian0]

1. Just because there was a red soul in Undertale, doesn't mean it's the same soul in Deltarune. 2. There is no evidence that Kris has their own soul + player's soul and if that was the case, Ralsei and Spamton would notice, but they only say thing about the red soul.

[@drewpatterson7917]

I think Determination might be a physical substance (given it can be extracted and injected into things), but that it remains inert unless it is activated by feelings of determination "The will to keep living, the resolve to change fate." The way Flowey describes his first time loading his save file with the "burning feeling" that erupted inside of him might be sort of like a chemical reaction that the determination in him has in response to his last moment apprehensions about death. Similarly, Frisk only gains the ability to refuse death in the Asriel fight (as well as use Hope and Dream, which both seem to be derived from determination) which is the point in their journey where they are the closest they have ever been to achieving their goal of escaping the underground with the monsters - with the end in sight, it is reasonable to think that they are only then able to channel the full extent of their determination. Even so, Asriel notes that with each death they lose their grip on this world a little more - the implication being that if they died enough times, their resolve might weaken enough to allow them to actually die. Toriel and Asgore are the only "boss monsters" that we meet in Undertale (Gerson explains what a boss monster is if I remember correctly) and they are the only monster souls that persist for a few moments after their death and turning into dust, it seems to be a particular species of monster, so Papyrus is a boss in the game but not a "boss monster."

[@drewpatterson7917]

To follow up, I would also note that my interpretation of determination is also supported by Undyne's neutral route vs genocide route. Her determination flares up in both, stalling her death and granting her temporary power, but she only transforms and gets a properly renewed grip on life in the genocide route. I think this is because her resolve is significantly more solidified in the genocide route, and she is channeling a motivation that is a lot purer. In the neutral route, she continues out of a desire to live because she feels she has failed those closest to her - Papyrus, Alphys, Asgore. In the genocide route, she is motivated by a desire to protect the entire world "monsters, humans, everyone." In the genocide route she is channeling something beyond her own dreams and it seems to allow her to more effectively wield her determination in a similar manner to Frisk in the Asriel fight. However, it seems that the potential to do something like that is unique to Undyne - Sans is clearly fairly "determined" to stop the human in the genocide route, but he doesn't transform or anything. It seems to me that either you have the potential (a latent quantity of "determination" in you) or you don't, but wielding it is another matter which relies on state of mind (metaphysical determination). Could be wrong though.

[@guiltyflygon]

Haha, yeah the whole Boss Monster thing is a bit annoying when trying to talk about it lol. I was mistaken in saying that the bosses in the game all have the heart on scren shattering animation, that seems to be limited to Boss Monsters, but Papyrus, Undyne, and Sans are all still able to hold onto their physical forms after a fatal blow far longer than normal monsters, which is notable in this debate even if it could just be for the sake of the story. DT is definitely something tangible in the case of Alphys extracting it, unless the DT extractor is making the physical substance somehow, so the idea it has to be "activated" does seem to be true and is perhaps why someone has to have "resolve" in order to be "determined" in the way the game describes. I do think that's the losing of grip on the world that Asriel describes, as in, they literally lost the will to continue and therefore lost the ability to continue. In the case of the God of Hyperdeath fight it's a bit hard to say if Frisk's abilities there are totally their own given they just got help from the other human souls, but it's possible. I'm going to respond to your second comment too in this one for convenience. When it comes to Sans I think there's a pretty big distinction given a few things that have been said. Specifically the quote "the will to keep going... the resolve to change fate..." and Sans saying he's "given up already." Sans has no hope that he can defeat you, he knows we can go back as many times as we want, the goal of his fight is to frustrate and bore us into giving up. In other words, he's not trying to "change fate" or "keep going" he's just trying to stall you in place for eternity as a type of punishment. He is the judge after all. Undyne on the other hand does want to defeat us. She says, "Human. No, WHATEVER you are. For the sake of the whole world... I, UNDYNE, will strike you down!" She does have the resolve to change fate, at least, until you prove that even with all of her power you can still defeat her. Then her resolve starts to slip and she melts. In the neutral route I think you're right in saying she has less motivation to hold on so she melts earlier. Interestingly though is that the other difference is in neutral you've already proven you can defeat Undyne at her best, in the Geno route she's struck down in order to save Monster Kid. I do think that may have had an effect on her psychological state and "resolve." This has interesting implications when it comes to the amalgamates, because they were content to move on until Alphys injected them with DT, thus giving them that resolve at the 11th hour. It seems like that may be the reason they melted, because they had been thoroughly "defeated" by whatever was killing them before getting the resolve to hold on, much like Undyne in neutral. After all, Undying is far stronger and persists after death so she should have more DT than Undyne in neutral, right? So I don't think it could be an issue of upper limit.

[@drewpatterson7917]

@@guiltyflygon I see your points. I would just note that if Sans had completely given upl, he wouldn't be fighting you - as he puts it he "can't afford not to care anymore." I agree he doesn't have a lot of hope, but I do think he is exercising resolve. It may be a moot point though, since I think it is obvious that Undyne has a lot more resolve than he does. If you ever want to relook into this issue, I suggest looking into the difference between the snowdrake amalgamate and the other amalgamates. Even if it probably isn't intended, it is possible to kill the snowdrake amalgamate, and this is because it is intentionally possible for the player to damage her where it is not possible to damage the others. All the amalgamates are in pretty much the same position - they had initially fallen down, they had been injected with similar amounts of determination, but the snowdrake amalgamate appears to be noticeably less "determined" than the others and is still only barely clinging to life (and form) in comparison. I feel like this is important somehow to the determination discussion, but I am not sure exactly what to make of it.

[@i010001]

Weird: In Chapter 1, Kris' initial class is "Human" with the following description: "Body contains a human SOUL." ...Which strikes me as like, oddly specific and awkward, right? But it also has weird implications because Kris can remove their soul. It's also worth considering that Kris seems to have like, not a lot of determination on their own, if we take that to mean a will to exist and determine your fate. They tend to just kind of exist and emit one-word responses to things. Asriel's side of the room is full of extracurriculars, Kris' barely exists. They seem to have few friends and their only hobby seems to be video games and pranks, and they don't seem to do a lot of either nowadays (The game systems and put away, and Kris seems hurt if we tease Noelle too much.) They seem to be asleep a lot, let other people guide them (and not just us - They allow Toriel to guide them by the hand despite being some kind of teenager,) and people compare them to a corpse often enough that it is suspicious. That is not to say Kris Is Dead (or a zombie or whatever - Though, I suppose if Kris was a Zombie Monster it would explain the red eyes and jaundice-y skin tone and shambling gait actually,) but could just mean they don't have a lot separating them from a corpse to begin with. That is, Kris might have only a little determination and a weak soul for a human. ...I guess that doesn't really mean anything on it's own. But it came to mind. There's also colour association. If the Red Soul is Kris', we would expect the colour associated with them to be red. But it's instead consistently aqua/light blue - The colour associated with patience and a lack of movement in Undertale. Kris is blue in the dark world, has a blue portrait, and if you use lancer, the bar which shows up is Blue. So, also odd. I'd also like to mention that monsters have always had determination, but it's always been a very low amount compared to a human. Undyne probably has the most, excluding amalgamates and Asriel who are special cases, and managed to come back from the dead once in a Genocide run. We need determination to open a fountain, but it does not inherently conflict with Undertale Determination if monsters have this power as well... So it's like, maybe a human soul can still stave off death, but a human and monster soul alike can both form a Dark World. ...And yeah. No idea what all that means, but it came to mind.

[@guiltyflygon]

I guess in that case my monster DT theory is more like "monsters had so little DT because of the hopelessness of the situation in Undertale, not because it's a biological trait." I do find Kris being the same color as the patience soul interesting, but at the same time, doing any kind of color theory in Deltarune is weird because Susie literally has a yellow soul on her belt but her primary color is way closer to magenta... Justice and Perseverance both fit her, but why both? It's just odd lol.

[@ripoffflowey4884]

patience kris seems actually pretty viable? idk I'm not a theorist but they do seem to 'wait for the right time' whenever they act on their own, aside from with extreme emotions.

[@ICountFrom0]

Coutnerpoint, leftover detmination has totally been a thing. Asgor after the souls are returned, Flowey at ALL TIMES, both are just holding on by determination without a way to generate more.

[@guiltyflygon]

Do you mean Asriel? I don't remember Asgore holding on by Determination... I talked about this in the sequel to this video because yeah, I totally forgot to mention Asriel, my bad lol, but he's a really hard source to judge from. Alphys injected Flowey with Determination from the human souls after all, that's why Flowey is able to exist, so it's hard to say whether he fits into the category of "Residual Determination" or "Alternate Determination." Like, Flowey is powerful enough to reset the timeline with his borrowed Dtermination from Alphys's injection, so who's to say he couldn't keep his form as Asriel if he wanted to. Flowey heavily implies that he can't feel emotions without a soul, so it's possible that's why he reverts into a flower after giving up all the souls at the end of the pacifist run. Either explanation is equally likely in my mind haha, thanks for commenting.

[@ICountFrom0]

*nods* valid, but because it could be either, it's kind of hard to say both aint something that ever existed, heh. You tend to think things in different directions from me, give me a good stretch to poke at them and try to hold the idea myself.

[@mlg_slayer18thegreat60]

New theory video pog

[@Oceane1803]

I disagree that the red soul can't be DT because the other humans had DT. Because yeah, they did. But what if Frisk/Chara/Kris' soul is exclusively composed of DT ? I personally think that each trait has a different amount of DT, and that it affects their color. The more DT they have, the closer to red their soul is. Green, Blue and Cyan have the least DT, Purple is a middle ground, and Orange and Yellow have the most DT. Well if you exclude the red soul which would be pure DT. Pure red. The other humans had DT, but they didn't have as much as Frisk did. That's why, even if they could save, they weren't determined enough to never ever give up, while Frisk is. And the ball game's description of the red soul contains all the other traits because, with the red soul having more DT than them all, these traits with less DT are encompassed by it. That's just my theory though. As for why Kris can survive without their soul, I think them removing their soul doesn't remove their determination. In fact, I think it's the only thing that keeps them going without a soul. They're literally in a dying state (hence why they walk so slowly) without their soul, but they can keep going for a while through pure determination. Kinda like what Undyne the Undying did. She was supposed to die, but she kept going for a little while longer through her determination alone. And about Asgore and Toriel's souls persisting a little while after their death, we know that it's because they're boss monsters. And to me, Boss Monsters are Monsters with just a tiny bit more DT than usual monsters, but not enough to make them melt either obviously. That's why their souls hold on a little bit after death, but it's not enough DT for their soul to actually survive after death, and they break almost immediatly. Also Toriel in her fight has brown eyes, which could be interpreted as dark red, implying the presence of a very small amount of Determination that, in my theory, is synonymous with Boss Monsters. And Asgore has a mother-heckin' giant red trident. He's the only monster who has a red attack. Well maybe Toriel has red attacks too. After all she must be as powerful as Asgore, and we've never seen her go all out.

[@guiltyflygon]

I like the idea of the soul colors being a spectrum. That's pretty cool. In that case though I'd still believe that the red soul is something other than DT. If patience is the trait with the least DT, which makes sense, then the trait with the most DT probably shouldn't just be DT itself. It'd be like if we listed blood types as: A, B, and Blood. That said, the concepts that the souls represent are pretty nebulous, so if it is control or freedom it's pretty synonymous with DT anyways. I guess the question of the video isn't really "does Kris have DT after removing their soul" it's "how does Kris have DT after removing their soul" so I definitely agree the zombie walk is due to being strung along by DT. All these theories are trying to figure out why Kris has enough DT to create a dark fountain without their soul if DT is a soul related power. "Boss Monsters" are a weird concept I produced to this world because it simultaneously seems to matter and not matter at the same time lol. That said, Undyne also wields some DT, so it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation in my mind. Do Boss Monsters have more DT/will because it's inherent to them? Or does being a Boss Monster necessarily put you in a position where people are relying on you thus you have more DT/will?

[@Oceane1803]

@@guiltyflygon Yeah it's pretty confusing, and even if it's fun to theorize, all we can technically do for now is wait. But hey, Chapter 3 and 4's release is not that far away and we'll have new content for the theories.

[@gristen]

this is debunked in the book "legends of localization: undertale" which was given toby's stamp of approval before it was published. you can watch jaru jaru's video discussing it if you cant afford the book yourself. in the book toby seems to have revealed that frisk never had the power to save on their own, and only gained the power due to the player's/chara's connection to them. this is why it's the player's/chara's name on the save file and why we see chara's memories when we die. frisk is not the one that has the save power, so it's unlikely for determination to be the defining trait of red souls (imo its more likely its trait is love, especially considering the dual meaning of that word has in the game). its possible that their shared soul color is what allowed chara to attach themself to frisk as some sort of spooky ghost entity tho.

[@jodohe]

Maybe the Red Soul is the only that becomes stronger over time. Frisk didn't has any power with it because Frisk is still a kid. Kris can change the soul color but not really at will and the all different colord souls are powerd up like the yellow soul wich now can make a [[BIG SHOT]]. An adult could maybe change the soul color at any time and maybe the red soul get a ability to. Humans with different soul colors than red just get more abilitys for there soul color. As an example a human with the yellow soul first gets the charge shot and as an adult he could maybe over charge it.

[@grianjuju9438]

I wonder if kris killed themself for one reason or another(second as a ritual maybe) and their soul would shatter while we were creating a vessel, they could theoretically sort of as a zombie or a souless husk gain a soul that is our sort of herald or a messenger like angels, cause in some cases gods send them, and also the soul, not kris, we, can only seal the fountains, so in theory kris could or couldn't know of dark worlds, but after realising that "it" can seal them and sort of make kris get closer to susie and have those adventures, could mean why they allow us to stick with them for now, and the reason why kris created a dark fountain is determination, so why not theorise that kris is determined to create that fountain, not us, which is why they ripped us out, cause either A we wouldn't allow them to create a fountain while being inside them, or B Kris is determined by their own to create a Fountain which is why they manage to create one, and there's also a C option, What queen tolds us, might not be true, and the real proccess of creating a fountain, might have other rules, or maybe it doesn't neccesarily have to be determination as the intent, Or even wilder theory, because kris studied occult, and some stuff kris learned over the span of 2 chapters, made kris realise how to create a fountain either without a soul and need of determination or by other means either way, we can speculate and make wild theories, what queen said doesn't have to be 100% how a fountain is actually created

[@TheRenaSystem]

15:03 Determination is stored in the balls

[@just_areit]

What if red IS freedom? The freedom to do whatever you want, the freedom to be yourself. As opposed to cyan (the opposite color on the color wheel), which is patience -- you cannot move during cyan attacks -- you're complacent

[@just_areit]

Or maybe it could just be LOVE lol

[@B4K4xNi]

8:41 Monsters are diffrent. The SOUL and Determination literally hold the monster's physical forms together. Humans have physical bodies indipendant of their SOUL.

[@guiltyflygon]

I mean, sure. That doesn't mean we know with 100% certainty that a human could be just fine without a soul. Our only example of this is Kris, (Chara was dead so that doesn't really count lol) and they don't seem super fine without it.

[@basiltheflowerboy143]

In the japaneese version of undertale, Frisk is specified to have a medical bandage. Maybe if Kris was experimented on... Frisk was too?

[@guiltyflygon]

I believe this is due to Japanese not having a dedicated work for Band-Aid if I remember correctly, but it is possible.

[@basiltheflowerboy143]

@@guiltyflygon If the video i watched on the japaneese translation of undertale was right, then japaneese has a word for the little band-aid things but also one for medical bandages. So they had to choose which word to use, and went with medical bandages. Could be wrong though, it's been a while since i saw that video.

[@Tom-jg9de]

Ok i uh gona expand into mine "Soul Working werid with determenesion" So i have made A mini scale Abot det so bacacly -0 none -0.5 you have demenimsion but not that much to save -1 could save with deteminsaion -1.5 or more To much deteminsion to save and start melting And there atlest 2 pepole i wana talk abot udyne the undying and Flowey Undyne when start die was so detemnet to not die she rech the 1 det level and startet to rech greter level if in theory could Save... But she din't know "saving" exest so She qas destend to lose with your knife or with melting Flowey when he start being flowey startet to be at level 1 and becose he was that detement to do stuff he stay at level 1 For prety long time and with no soul he don't nead to wory abot melting down so he (probably) beat monster to have a deteminsion (P.S Sory abot gramar)

[@shawmlinsitly08]

This kind of video is perfect to listen to while doing chores (i.e. folding clothes lol).

[@guiltyflygon]

Ideally yes haha

[@N_1_N_3]

Spin-off of residual determination theory: souls work similar to how our hearts in real life do by pumping blood(determination) through your veins therefore Kris would still have some blood(determination) left in them but can’t live like that for long without dying. This would also explain how alphys was able to extract a physical substance from the seven human souls. Obviously there is little to no evidence to support this so take this theory with a grain of salt. The only counter evidence I can think of off of the top of my head is the fact that sans bleeds red, and the fact that there is an unused sprite of Susie bleeding red blood witch would kinda contradict them having white souls? ( under the assumption that the determination is the reason different souls have colours) blah blah I’m just blabbering about a theory that doesn’t have any evidence haha.

[@XmillOk]

Is it even accurate to treat DT as a trait? Alphys, for example was talking about DT, like a substance, so what if DT isn't a trait at all, but a substance, that allows to change fate, if the person has good amount of it?

[@grianjuju9438]

35:56 asgore kills himself regardless, after the neutral route, flowey won't kill asgore again, asgore kills himself.

[@guiltyflygon]

Oh, never knew that. There's so many different outcomes in this game to keep track of lol. I'm assuming his soul still does the lingering animation before shattering like before though? And what's his motivation for doing so?

[@grianjuju9438]

@@guiltyflygon oh and also him being tired from commiting murder, which is not something he wanted

[@Flynnisthename]

@@guiltyflygonit’s him trying to let frisk take his soul

[@embryodemocracy1275]

What if one of the reasons asgore kept the souls instead of breaking the barrier, was because doing so would use up what magic is in the souls. Look at their containers. I don't think they were taken out of the coffins I think they were transferred directly out of the core. Wouldnt the "core" of gaster's research to be getting infinite power for the underground? And he did so with the core. But what powers the core? If a soul can keep a body alive in Deltarune, what if it's similar to how a battery works. What if when the soul is in Kris, it gives them a small charge of determination. The monsters don't have a human soul, they have extracted determination and die. The core is infinitely powered. Kris without their soul is tired like a machine with a dying energy source. Flowey has a soul, seemingly never shattered. But what if he unknowingly used up all his determination? What if when you fight the amalgamates they use up whatever determination charge they had stored in them like Kris and flowey? Asgore and flowey and use the souls and the core still is powered because it still has a charge being stored. Gaster fell into his creation. Asriel didn't stop existing when he died. Would he have been a ghost before flowey? Or stuck as a lost soul? Okay I'll stop rambling I'm dizzy

[@embryodemocracy1275]

I think what I'm trying to say is that the human soul, determination, and the power to keep existing might all be three sides of one coin, as opposed to 2

[@guiltyflygon]

I do think the Core is somewhat implied to be a super advanced geothermal generator but it's pretty much confirmed Alphys didn't make the DT extractor, so that was probably Gaster anyways. I wouldn't be surprised if he was planning to use the souls as an energy source at some point before he "fell" but given Alphys had to make the machine eventually it's safe to say he didn't get the chance. That said the little containers are interesting. Perhaps they're the reason the souls can't move on? As in, they're essentially trapped rather than hanging on through determination alone.

[@embryodemocracy1275]

@@guiltyflygon right, I forgot that thermal power was a thing, and wondered if Hotland came after the core, but I'm sure there's dialogue saying they moved to Hotland before the core. And hilariously the containers might just be vacuum sealed. I could see that being a funny answer to the question.

[@jackiechan3620]

Killing Berdley can't remove Noelle's power since she uses it at the end of the Spamton Neo fight at the end of Snowgrave.

[@guiltyflygon]

That's after Susie has snapped her out of her funk by telling her it's a dream though, so it makes some sense she might be able to slip back into her pre-Berdly attitude... Until later of course.

[@nataliaborys1554]

13:00 - Not really a refutation, but just wanted to point out that Spamton dialogue is uniquely unreliable, so arguing that the grammar he uses implies something is shaky at best. Especially that he says "[HeartShapedObject]" in brackets, and the words in brackets seem to be more like vocal tics? As in, he doesn't fully intend to say those. So you could easily say that he mwant to say "souls", it came out as [HeartShapedObject] and he decided that "eh, screw it, close enough" and just went on with his speech Anyway, the video is good, I'm just nitpicking

[@guiltyflygon]

That's totally fair lol

[@lukematzner7996]

You forgot a very important piece of evidence against the multi-soul theory: when you first enter the dark world Kris’s Rank isn’t leader but instead human. The description of this rank is: A human body with a human soul. Note the wording, a soul, singular. Kris only has one soul inside them at this point of the game.

[@guiltyflygon]

To be fair there is a category for "in game text" in the evidence against section but I didn't mention this specifically, true. Multi-Soul theory would have to rely on a lot of in-game lines being intentionally wrong so I definitely don't really like it lol.

[@emanuel585]

My theory is kris is greedy and hoarding souls

[@guiltyflygon]

😂

[@TheSkyGuy77]

Determination = adrenaline is my theory

[@quippits3201]

The red soul's attribute is Ball Game, obviously