Heavy Rain vs Disco Elysium - Writing Women (feat. Allegations)

[@uricksaladbar]

Join my Patreon and I'll scream your name in the credits in the next video www.patreon.com/uricksaladbar

[@pyronite4458]

Q

[@ghastlytrench6554]

I love you so damn much for finally talking about disco elyy

[@jodumxd9781]

Thanks for an epic video urick

[@NatalieExists]

very important question: will you actually scream it if i ask nicely

[@KarimaRilana]

Twin mirror or life is strange 2 is next?😭🤣

[@enamon6651]

I just wish David Cage could experience a normal human conversation one day

[@scruffles3838]

If only....

[@klunett]

How could he when he is so detached from the real world

[@zokkoop1]

Yeah Right!

[@histhoryk2648]

with man or woman?

[@rudeboyspodcast]

He's done interviews before but he's just always so... off.

[@sono_chi_no_sodium_chlorid7635]

Madison's worst scene is when Shaun (or whatever was his name) dies and at the funeral she tells Ethan that he can always have another son with her. Like... bruh

[@Mariodash23]

On the list of things to not say to a man who just lost both of his sons, that's up there at the fucking top!

[@plasticflower]

What. The. Hell.

[@nont18411]

And Ethan killed himself afterward😂

[@Bunni89]

I saw a lets play where the player literally joked "lets make another son!" right before she actually said it, oh my god the game is like its own self parody

[@javsandarts]

@@Bunni89 Mike?

[@renaigh]

the best thing about Disco Elysium is how Klaasje isn't the only woman you can talk to.

[@anitaremenarova6662]

You can talk to at least 10 women!

[@madattaktube]

That's the second best thing, the best thing is Mr Evrart helping you find your gun!

[@MrGamingPsycho]

@@madattaktube Mr Evrart is helping me find my gun.

[@thatrandomcrit5823]

I´m pretty sure there´s better things in DE besides that...

[@todoornottodo]

​@@thatrandomcrit5823Kim is my waifu

[@deliciouskromer4578]

Isn’t it common knowledge that the biggest weakness of quantum dream games is David Cage’s writing?

[@gameb9oy]

Quantum dream’s games are mostly niche titles, so while it’s common knowledge if you’ve played his games, it wouldn’t be too much a stretch to say you probably don’t know about him if you don’t already know at least one of quantum games releases. Urick I think probably didn’t have much background with his body of work as while the last time he talked about a game from them his words implied he didn’t know much about the guy

[@Rick586]

Cage's writing in general, and specifically the way he writes women.

[@sirlimen333]

@@Rick586 I thought it was more about his lack of self-awareness and perverted fantasies.

[@thatitalianlameguy2235]

@@Rick586 this ain't about women he's just shit at writing period. His games feel like they're ai dungeon scripts

[@1810jeff]

But that's also the thing that makes them so fun

[@kaneqost]

FYI The Bechdel test was never meant to determine wether a story was good or not, Alison Bechdel meant it just to show how underrepresented women are in relation to their men in the 80s which is fair

[@user-xsn5ozskwg]

Well and specifically because as a lesbian she wanted to see characters she could imagine as lesbians. But it was a joke when brought up here, so I wouldn't dwell on it.

[@Bunni89]

Yeah its a shame when people take stuff that was only ever just a discussion topic of possible ideas and act like its an Iron Clad Rule that can never be broken. Reminds me of what happened to the "mary sue test"

[@FirionLeFleur]

And honestly the sexy lampshade test is both a lot funnier AND works as an actual rule of judgement

[@plasticflower]

​@@FirionLeFleur Having just looked that test up, it seems like that one might as well be rephrased as "Can you remove the character from the story and it still works?" However, in a case like Heavy Rain, you couldn't remove Madison nor replace her with a lamp, but that doesn't mean she's well written. :/

[@LordVader1094]

@@plasticflower Yeah making a character important to the story doesn't make the character well written. An easy example is Mary Sues of all stripes.

[@frontierpsychiatrist2584]

God I hope the original DE creators win their lawsuit and get the rights to Disco Elysium back.

[@plaidchuck]

It looks like they wrote in the universe before the game so those characters and events will probably stay with the studio but the writers could make new ones. This is why creators need to get everything in writing before starting a project.

[@listrahtes]

It's not that easy. Kurvitz was a huge problem in treating employees and seems to be quite difficult to work with. It was his vision but a lot more people wrote and built the game.

[@adora_was_taken]

yeah doesn't seem like that'll happen :(

[@Elvis.D99]

Well that didn't happend

[@Inkshard]

I find you very generous to say David Cage is holding back Quantic Dreams' potential. As a French guy who is passionate about video games, I had the chance to see interviews of QD higher ups in obscure French medias and I can confidently say that most of them do not enjoy making games or video game culture and gamers in general. They wanted to make movies, but they can't because they stumbled in this niche that is interactive movies instead and it made them money. So now it's their brand and they're stuck with it, and it's pissing them off.

[@ImVeryOriginal]

This is the impression I always got from them as well - ego-driven hacks who wish they could make Hollywood movies but instead got stuck making games. Which is a shame, I really loved their debut game Omikron: The Nomad Soul - with all its weirdness and genre mashing, it was a bold experiment in game design and had a beautiful, vibrant world. Shame it all devolved into poorly written QTE-fests.

[@fallenwarlock2418]

If I had a nickel for every time I saw a woman with short hair being restrained in a game by David Cage... When I was younger I used to think the short hair was just easier to animate, but it’s obvious David has a “type”, yikes

[@fareseno]

Chloe have a long hair tho

[@TheRealSplexy]

i get what ur saying but also just having a preference of hairstyle doesnt evoke a a yikes from me

[@fallenwarlock2418]

@@TheRealSplexy if it was just the hairstyle I wouldn’t have a problem. It’s the combination. It’s always a women with short hair getting restrained and suffering an attempt of violation. Not to mention the “shower scene” present in every game aside from Detroit (because androids don’t shower). It’s just a really specific mix of elements

[@flarestorm9417]

Ah yes, "the writer's barely disguised fetish", but in game form.

[@TheRealSplexy]

@@fallenwarlock2418 yeah ok kinda forgot about that part nevermind

[@PrincessCiel72]

It's funnier once you know Madison's other endings other than being with Ethan, alone she isn't happy. Basically saying her only solution to fully feel happy and accomplished she must have Ethan in her life which makes her character worse, amazing David Cage.

[@lautaroescarlon7501]

Simply because I'm obsessed with 100%ing the games I buy and seeing all the continent, I have the platinum for this admittedly horribly written game and this isn't really true in the "Heroine" ending where Ethan rejects/doesn't forgive Madison and she reaches the warehouse with Ethan dead or imprisoned where she appears on a talk show and writes a book titled Heavy Rain about her experience.

[@PrincessCiel72]

@@lautaroescarlon7501 yeah I am aware of this ending and forgive me I probably had a foggy memory. Edit: sorry I thought that line meant something romantically instead it's just a criticism which fair enough. Just I feel like Madison should have decent ending where she feels fulfilled somewhat with no need for a romantic partner and you see her happy

[@lautaroescarlon7501]

@@UMADBRO64 That's wömen for you. They love to ride the cock carousel until they're too old to ride it. Then they settle down with a *provider*.

[@zickeney7108]

@@UMADBRO64 People can find fulfilment in aspects of life other than romantic/sexual relationships, through work, hobbies, passions and equally strong platonic relationships. The idea that life is worthless or less fulfilling without one is ironically a primary tenet of incel ideology, and the reason why they will never find happiness: they have already convinced themselves there is one road to self actualisation and that they can never reach that road due to not being some mythical "chad" figure. This also engenders their bizarre doublethink perspective on women where they hate women for not worshipping them 24/7 as they are apparently entitled to and also obsessively crave female companionship as they refuse to consider anything could be more satisfying than that.

[@maxtheawesome4255]

@@zickeney7108 What Dr Accula says is largely true. The main source of meaning in most people's lives is their relationships. It has always been this way as we are social animals. It is by no means a modern invention. Even cave painting and the invention of song was used to create these relationships in a community. The most common regret on one's death bed is "not spending enough time with loved ones" followed by "Working too much." The push for replacing relationships with career and consumerism as the main sources of meaning is a symptom of the post capitalist society. All you did was rag on incels without actually thinking about what you were actually arguing against.

[@majorghoul9017]

David Cage has met three women and they were the actresses for Heavy Rain and Detroit who were literally paid to survive his madness. He needs to meet a woman in a candid environment where she can tell him to touch grass

[@ImVeryOriginal]

At this point I'm not sure if he shouldn't just be kept away from any women for the rest of his life. Like, at least 100 ft away.

[@llamzrt]

It's magic. You can have a questionable rape scenario written with more nuance and less creepiness than a normal romance plot.

[@georgemeyers7172]

That's saying something. If true that is. You have a example on that?

[@nont18411]

@@georgemeyers7172 Not in a game, but in the comics. Have you ever read Invincible?

[@mort4825]

@@georgemeyers7172 look at the video title

[@CastJupiter-lh8yk]

@@georgemeyers7172 berserk

[@basedturu2320]

@@georgemeyers7172 berserk is good example for that scenario, even tho some of them is feel unnesecarry.

[@billvolk4236]

I want a mod for Disco Elysium where you can press X to yell "Shaun!" at any time, and the characters will judge you for it.

[@pietmeon]

Press X to yell ‘KIM!’ In which he will respond, ‘I’m right here, detective, no need to shout..’

[@FemboyJoe]

​@@pietmeon*spams button

[@genericname2747]

@@pietmeon "Kim!" "Yes, detective?" "Kim!" "Yes?" "Kim!" *Kim arches an eyebrow* "Kim!" *no response* "Kim!" "Kim!" "Kim!"

[@Elerantula_]

@@pietmeon Well modders, if you want work here it is.

[@MrDoomDawg]

I feel like you'd yell "Shaun" a couple of times, then your own brain would chime in and ask you why the hell you're yelling, if its some kind of desperate plea for attention, or if you've finally gone fully certifiably insane. You'd have the option to answer that the voice of communism has been muted by the bourgeoisie for 40 years and you're here to bring it back screaming into the heavens. or you'd have the option to do some harrowing introspection and have a breakdown over this new and embarrassing compulsion to add to your long list of bad habits, driving away anyone who could possibly love you, like always. or, you'd fool yourself into thinking that screaming a random name is *disco*, because you're a superstar cop.

[@throwachair4574]

David Cage said he doesn't make "games for f*gs" but writes like someone who has never interacted with a woman ever

[@alexfarkas3881]

Pretty bold words from the maker of Robot Boyfriend Simulator - Twink Detective Edition

[@Margolias]

To be fair, pretty much all of the hank/Connor stuff was adlibed by the actors

[@panonymousbloom5405]

@@Margolias ah, so this is why they feel like actual human beings.

[@lkcdarzadix6216]

@@Margolias no wonder they were the best parts

[@jackdavenport5011]

@@lkcdarzadix6216yep, they were the best part of the game because they deviated from David’s awful writing

[@PramkLuna]

Weirdest part is that she says "you go girl" if you hit him with a vase rather than convey any anxiousness or fear. This is a situation many people are afraid of being in.

[@Bunni89]

Yeeah, Cage seems to think "strong female character" just means "i can torment her with awful plotlines and she's never scared" Plenty of strong female characters in history have shown pain and fear, so have many strong male characters! Reacting like a real person is always better than whatever the heck Cage is doing, lol

[@NihilistCoomerLord]

He confuses strong with stoic.

[@hydrolur3959]

Madison's page is another example of "On this episode of the writer's barely disguised fetishes" lol

[@orangejuice782]

this video really is reminding me i should continue playing disco elysium edit: FINISHED MY FIRST PLAYTHROUGH JUST A FEW DAYS AGO, THIS VIDEO IS NOW REMINDING ME I SHOULD START (and finish) A SECOND ONE. AND A THIRD ONE. AND A FOURTH. AND A

[@Whatsuppbuddies]

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU

[@SaberRexZealot]

Dude it’s begging you to finish it

[@tryggvi1239]

LOGIC - You should

[@LatinaCreamQueen]

God it's so good. Whenever I hear those horns... Man.

[@ghastlytrench6554]

It's a wonderful game that explores countless topics wonderfully. A shame what happened with the devs.

[@talkinghoorse6936]

It's so cool that Disco Elysium gave David Cage a cameo in their game as the Lorry Driver!

[@lautaroescarlon7501]

Maybe physically but personality-wise he's more along the lines of being a Gary, the Cryptofascist to me.

[@anaverageswede9655]

Welcome to Revachol !

[@crue-xx]

Yes David Cage is a racist or cryptofascist!!! Healthy rational take, totally!!!

[@jonathancortez9143]

@@anaverageswede9655 dont you welcome to revachol me

[@bobwreath]

A Cage game with questionable to outright-terrible writing? Like I'll ever see the day!

[@ndep4867]

Volition: "I have bad news for you Ethan. You know this guy?" David Cage: "I HATE WOMEN! I HATE WOMEN! I HATE WOMEN!" Volition: "He hates women." You: "I don't know he seems quite reasonable to me... oh god why am I saying that?" Volition: "Because he *wrote* us. And Madison. We've been compromised."

[@yazidefirenze]

DISCO: BECOME ELYSIUM

[@CletoFrost]

"youre against the writer now, harry-boy. good luck"

[@freddie9705]

@@yazidefirenzeI would 100% be interested in a disco elysium total conversion mod that casts you as Connor from Detroit, no doubt experiencing some very distressing malfunctions on the job.

[@yazidefirenze]

@@freddie9705 Everyone's favourite skill: A M A N D A

[@SaberRexZealot]

Heavy Rain’s real claim to fame was that supermarket chase scene with all the failed QTEs.

[@jackdavenport5011]

The fact that the game’s whole legacy is a guy screaming “JASON” in a supermarket says a lot about the quality of the game’s story.

[@SaberRexZealot]

@@jackdavenport5011 I was talking about the scene with Norman Jayden chasing a suspect and falling over everything. It’s like a Leslie Nielsen skit played straight - it’s fucking hilarious.

[@gizmohollow]

Also the "I'm here to see MF Doom" meme

[@virtualcynical8515]

"Turns out the Hanged Man was actually a Pretty Decent Guy". WELLLLLLL

[@drakenel]

HE AINT MY BOY BUT HIS BROTHER IS HEAVY

[@virtualcynical8515]

His brother is the Heaviest in the Whole Game.

[@Tribophopic]

He was a manchild who couldn’t live with the reality of his past and so he turned hard into being a bastard. He knew he didn’t deserve comfort but he was gracious when he was given release.

[@virtualcynical8515]

@@Tribophopic Agreed.

[@anitaremenarova6662]

I mean to be fair, he's about as decent as someone who was trained to be a killing machine from a young age can be.

[@Arexion5293]

It's kinda weird when a full on fanservice game wouldn't be as embarrassing as Madison's scenes are in Heavy Rain. The former is making its intentions fully clear, diving deep into the depravity as that is the entire point, while Madison is in a story we're supposed to take seriously, yet she's treated as if the story has suddenly shifted genre from poorly executed seriousness into shallow exploitation material. A fanservice game has a clear sense of identity and fully embraces it, while this comes across as if it was written by a teenager who just suddenly wanted to write some boobs into the story.

[@Mariodash23]

Senran Kagura, a series about big tiddy college girl ninjas, has more personality and drama in its characters than anything David Cage has made. And that's a game where the majority of time, the girls are getting their clothes ripped while fighting hordes of other ninjas!

[@Arexion5293]

@@Mariodash23 That's the exact game I was thinking of. It knows what it is and feels no shame about it.

[@patrickfrost9405]

"Depravity?"

[@user-xsn5ozskwg]

That's kinda the point here, right? Nothing wrong with having sexy characters, it's the context, intent, and message that matter when presenting them.

[@abadidea5984]

It just goes to show that _any_ character can be given meaning and complexity as long as you care about them. Kenichiro Takaki clearly cares about his tiddy ninja girls, and was sure to have the writers give them all such rich personalities and hidden depth that they all become interesting and likeable. By contrast, David Cage does not care for Madison because he does not treat her like a character; she's a plot device at best, and a fetish outlet at worst.

[@pendantblade6361]

Detroit should have just been Hank and Connor the video game and it would have been 100% better.

[@jackdavenport5011]

Exactly, Kara and Marcus’ stories are so badly written and poorly characterised that they should’ve just been the antagonists in Connor and Hank’s story

[@NANAbananabanar]

Also Hank and Connor’s relationship is better than any sort of heterosexual romance in any other David Cage game.

[@1810jeff]

To be fair no one in heavy rain has a personality, not really a fair comparison but in Disco Elysium you can feel everyone's personalities by their dialogue.

[@creepdimensions2405]

That's true but it's more along the lines of why did they waste time with such a character that would fit more on the sidelines

[@MmeCShadow]

I was going to say Nahmen JAYden has a personality but then I remembered he really just has an accent. More seriously I would say that Scott Shelby has a personality, which in retrospect was the subconscious tell that he was the killer. More care went into his scenes than anybody else's and in that game it was a big red flag.

[@ImVeryOriginal]

In Disco Elysium, the components of the main character's personality have personality. It's on a whole different level.

[@TheRatedOniChannel]

when your personality traits have MORE personality than the characters in the other game, THAT is worrying!

[@addison_v_ertisement1678]

"It's fine, because a lot of people are doing it. The bandwagon fallacy? What's that?"

[@meme_aids]

Disco elysium is honestly one of the best games to come out of the last decade. The writing is excellent, not just for the women, but for the entire story. I highly recommend anyone with some free time to go play it, it's well worth it.

[@matchboxboom]

While this is true may I suggest playing the game in a way that does not pay out the company who fired the people who actually made the world and characters so good. 🏴‍☠️

[@ghastlytrench6554]

@@matchboxboom could purchase a key for the game from a different site

[@Mr.X2019]

I heard it's very biased though?

[@ThePsychoRenegade]

Disco Elysium is the best written game I've ever played.

[@yurimessiah]

@@Mr.X2019 in what way?

[@LarryButz]

“She’s a sexually enticing person, at least compared to most folks in Martinaise” *Shivers* [Legendary : Success] Meanwhile, somewhere else on a pier, a man with far different preferences goes on a date with a woman named Lilienne; Woolie: *“SHE GAVE ME A S W Ö R D”* Jokes aside, I absolutely *LOVED* the compromised scene. (Spoilers ahead of course. Also a lotta words.) Not just for the fact that your own voices interact with each other very directly, which happens only rarely, but the fact that Volition *itself* is also compromised. But this is in the completely opposite direction; Volition is the embodiment of self improvement and having a positive mental health, being one of the few universally good voices that doesn’t really screw you over for investing too much, so you’re bound to always trust it over everything. But what happens when something appears that it directly identifies as a threat? It gets a focused track mind of right and wrong that although seems reasonable and perfectly just to take legal action as a detective… it’s… really complicated, since doing whats right against someone who has played with your emotions and state of mind could have serious consequences. Volition has taken a direct blow in all of its entirety, so it seeks to correct your betrayed state of mind by solving this dilemma with closure. Yes, her entire livelihood is centered on half-truths and manipulation, but she is *NOT* kidding when she says that detaining her to Moralintern is incredibly horrifying and is an outright death sentence. Even Kim Kitsuragi, the most straight-laced, by the books and greatest friend and ally, doesn’t have a definitive output in the situation and follows your own judgement for this. Detain her now, or let her go, bestow one last chance to see if she really accepts the trial under a free Revachol in the future? If you let her go, she just flees away to change her identity yet again most likely… but a hidden Shivers scene details that her fears aren’t unfounded and she does get silenced if detained, so… it’s a really complicated matter. Volition is not wrong in that your mind is being played with and that crimes have been committed… but Volition also is acting on impulse and righteous indignation to not see a bigger picture. Whatever you do, either is completely in your right as a officer of the Precinct. Your choice, detective.

[@anitaremenarova6662]

I mean, Lillienne is pretty but she's not being sexualised/using her sexuality in the same way Klaasje does.

[@AHeroWith1000Names]

Volition is the ultimate bro

[@AmericanBrit9834]

This is why the tagline is "what kind of cop are you"

[@xanderbeutel9239]

There's also the fact that she's lied about just nearly every detail about herself, and often replaced it with another lie (like throwing Ruby under the bus for the murder to save her own skin), it makes it so hard to trust anything she says anymore. And that's intentional game design, she's created as this mysterious and cool character than nearly every player would want to get closer with.

[@adamssmasher]

i personally want to kiss jean heron vicquemare

[@FotakaTefa]

Bro imagine a woman walking in underwear in one of these scenes and just scratch her butt or yawn ... that would break someone's dreams ... quantum dreams

[@thedeliveryboy1123]

or in mismatching bra and underwear because that's how it usually is (I think lots of women only have like three bras but bajillion of underwear because they need to be replaced more often) but isn't shown a lot

[@machinegirl03]

​@@thedeliveryboy1123also, high quality well-fitting bras are almost impossible to find and really expensive. If ur picky and want 100% cotton underwear u can go to any walmart and buy a 6 pack for $18. U cant even buy the shoulder strap of a good bra for $18

[@spacelizard217]

​@@thedeliveryboy1123or a shower scene but instead of sensually soaping her body she's on her period and shaving her armpits

[@pajamapantsjack5874]

As someone writing my own female characters, I always think about wether or not they’ll be seen as good characters. But hey, the fact I’m having these doubts, when I think David cage never did, means I’m at least on the right path.

[@yeng1855]

Nice to see you here.

[@ayrtonjoga]

Same, one of the protagonists of my story is a woman that I'm still not certain of her personality and purpose in the plot, but I care about my characters to make them matter

[@pajamapantsjack5874]

@@UMADBRO64 like the p0nr, my actual OC comic or just the videos

[@pajamapantsjack5874]

@@vlc-cosplayer very true bro, people just can’t handle the PJ style

[@yamataichul]

The advice: "write characters that happens to be female" is solid. I'm a woman and I tend to think this is the best advice, if it helps more Arcane takes this advice to a tee

[@PigPharmaceuticals]

Not that I disagree about anything else you said, but the idea that the hanged mercenary is a “decent guy” is…. a huge stretch, considering all the absolutely heinous shit he’s done in the past. And that Klassje is completely aware of this, but pursues this relationship with him anyways, does speak badly of her as well.

[@Mariodash23]

But that seems more like a character flaw than a writing flaw. I admit, I haven't played Disco Elysium (nothing against it, but I don't like narrative focused games that don't have action-y gameplay), but I imagine it handles heavy topics and traumatic experiences with far more nuance and understanding than the French pervert who lusted after Elliot Paige like a creepy stalker.

[@imageez]

Klassje is bad, in the way that she did business espionage that ruined companies and jobs without much thought, at least as she claimed herself. Whether her actions is comparable to commercial genocide and actual r word of the mercenaries is debatable but she felt that way herself. Maybe that's why, for the lack of better word, she felt kinship with him. Someone who won't judge you because they did worse than you. And, to give the mercenary, the only tiny peeeny credit he deserved, he responded her in the way she find agreeable.

[@PigPharmaceuticals]

@@Mariodash23 oh 100% a character flaw and not a writing flaw. She’s a great character, but not a good person.

[@PigPharmaceuticals]

@@imageez definitely agree, and that’s a good point about why she might have potentially felt that kinship with the mercenaries.

[@realhumanbean7915]

Not so much a “decent guy” as much as he was “the best you could have for a krenel merc.”

[@Bunni89]

Ohhhh man, the multiple attempted rape/attempted rape again/DREAM attempted rape/attempted rape WITH RUSTY SURGICAL TOOLS were all already creepy as fuck just from how the game frames them as titilating even when its meant to be a horror scene. But then it became even worse learning about the LITERAL FULL NUDE MODEL that like.... wasn't even used in the game itself, like what, was that just there for David Cage's gratification?? And then ALSO learning that he friggin kept a scrapbook of "life images" of this actor, like literally it wasn't just pictures of Elliot in his other sexualized roles but INCLUDED CHILD IMAGES... And all that becomes even sadder now that Elliot has come out as a trans man and we can all see how much this stuff must have been EVEN MORE traumatizing for him because of that. Like can you imagine a creep coming up to you with an album of photos of you at puberty, a time when you were probably super dysphoric and never wanted to see again. And this guy fuckin gushing about how the body you never wanted to have is sooooo sexy. And making a goddamn permenant 3D model of that body, without your consent, and you having to find out about it on the news??? I'm glad Eliott is now able to be himself and get better roles where he doesn't have to act such awful goddamn scenes, but its disgusting that he still had to go through this horrible experience. I wish him nothing but the best, I hope his career continues to improve and david cage fades into obscurity like the millions of other shitty horndogs in the world.

[@Bunni89]

Oh just to clarify my comment: of course I don't mean it would be any less horrifying to make a 3D nude model of a cis woman without her consent, or that only trans men go through this problem. The whole thing is fucked up on so many levels, I just meant that this particular case shows how sexism can also escalate to other things like transphobia (And apparantly racism?? like wtf the nazi photo edits?? WHY) David Cage really trying to bowl a strike on every possible horrible thing a person can do...

[@alissadolan7017]

@@Bunni89 The game you're talking about with Elliot Page is Beyond Two Souls, which ALSO had multiple attempted sexual assault scenes in it 🙁

[@GothVampiress]

cage's entire situation with elliot page has always been horrifying, but considering his struggles with dysphoria at the time, the whole thing becomes beyond monstrous in retrospect. madison (who was originally supposed to be a war correspondent on a work break, iirc) and jodie both suffer from the exact type of writing that cis men tend to throw on a woman they're writing that they want to be strong, but they don't seem to realize that being strong isn't simply surviving through horrifying things. though, to be fair, he does this to the men at times, too. david cage so badly wants to be an auteur filmmmaker, but he doesn't seem to grasp that characters have more traits than the situations they get put in. it's bizarre to me that he'd hitch his horse to character-driven story games when it's been the least strong aspect of his games since omicron.

[@jackdavenport5011]

Jodie especially is such an awfully written character, she doesn’t seem to have much of a personality besides all the bad things that happen to her

[@Ross516]

It's amazing how up his own ass about his writing he is for someone who literally can't write a compelling narrative or characters to save his life

[@TheMightyPika]

Heavy Rain is The Room of video games. It's terrible in ways that shouldn't be possible, but it's so goddamn hilarious and entertaining you ride it out.

[@liesalllies]

Yes and the ego of the creator is oozing from every pore. Total trainwreck.

[@digimonlover1632]

If that’s the case then why is it so well liked among critics?

[@inkfeather1152]

​@@digimonlover1632Because all of their skills are compromised.

[@ayrtonjoga]

David Cage: *Creates another game* Urick: Ah shit, here we go again

[@Tenchigo100]

David cage did the same thing in his original game; Fahrenheit. A strong independent female detective who’s inquisitive of the main male protagonist suspect who actually committed murder, ends up finding out he’s a potential criminal, then ends up immediately sleeping with the main protagonist for absolutely no reason. 0 context, just fucks the guy after being convinced that a magic cult of matrix god powers exists war thinks dead bodies are sexy. She has sexy shower scenes and usually is in underwear when alone. It made no sense, it had 0 reason, and it was only there to feed Cage’s horny ego.

[@fosfor9297]

God I want to see it so badly. You have such a unique typographical artstyle and such an intricate and eloquent writing... Especially important when tackling said issues. If only I generated any revenue from my work to donate you. Thank you from the depths of my heart for sharing your opinions. You are underrated as hell!

[@MmeCShadow]

The worst thing about Madison is that she can be written out of the game and it changes nothing. Every one of her scenes is unnecessary. The absolute closest we get is when she patches up Ethan, which he could have done himself. Other than that she fulfills two purposes: 1. Sexualization 2. Being able to call Ethan or Norman to get them to the final confrontation if you fucked up with them, which is incredible because she has never met Norman and has no reason to know his name, let alone his phone number Every other scene is about sexualizing her. From exaggerated sashaying in her underwear before being attacked by apartment ninjas, to the motel owner leering at her, to the strip-tease for the drug lord, to that utterly insane denouement where she's trapped in a basement by a serial killer who straps her spread-eagle to his murder-table and waves a drill uncomfortably close to her nether regions, Madison is almost constantly in uncomfortably fetishy peril and ultimately exists only to aid the men-folk. Possibly the best moment in the game is the ending where Shaun dies and at his grave Madison propositions Ethan to give him replacement children-- followed by Ethan committing suicide, which is the only correct response.

[@thatrandomcrit5823]

It also aids the women-folk that are lesbians/bisexual, don´t forget!

[@albedoweatheruno]

@@thatrandomcrit5823 i dont think any woman, gay or no, likes watching other women in uncomfortable and compromising situations

[@testacals]

@@albedoweatheruno That feels like kink shaming.

[@stroud9208]

​@@albedoweatheruno Think again, buckaroo.

[@plague9818]

Amazing video as usual! Only one correction because Disco Elysium is one of my favorite games ever though- The Hanged Man was anything but a decent guy. He was still a COMPLETE piece of shit who's just as bad if not worse as the guys you fight at the tribunal. The only thing we've heard that is actual ok about him was that he was a great talker (to his squad at least). Klassje's relationship with him was mostly sexual and the the main connection they kinda bonded over was the amount of trauma they've dealt with in their lives. He wasn't as trigger happy as the rest in his squad but he was just as barbaric. Blowing up villages at random, raping, and killing all for fun were common for them. I believe it was him who Raul said came across two people having sex, killed the guy, and they kept the girl for over a week before she died. When talking about him, Klassje even says "Oh no, I'm pretty sure he *did* terrible things -- then integrated them into his idea of normalcy. To keep on living. Until they just... sort of turned into his... What's the word I'm looking for? ... Running joke." But uhhh yeah just a little nitpick cause I love the game so much. But yeah he was not at ALL even close to a decent person. Love the video and your channel though!

[@theredsoldier26]

I remember when I played disco Elysium, and I got to the part you mentioned at 5:20. When Volition told me I was being dragged around, and was compromised, I instantly went, "Oh shit." It was such a beutiful moment, cause I realised, as you said, these voices which had been giving me info, had been duped. It made me realise that I wasn't infallible. And also, what an amazing way to show how skilled she is at seduction and talking. You, the player, on the meta level, probably use your skills to get info about the world, to fill in details about people's mannerisms and speech, that it becomes a crutch. When that is suddenly taken away from you, I honestly felt scared. Where else might my senses be hampering me, are there things I havenøt noticed or thought about just because I was tricked again? Breathtaking and honestly amazing.

[@dreamWatcher-2]

David cage is truly one of the writers ever

[@jazxsora]

Shoutout to the Disco Elysium style portrait of Madison at 10:55, fantastic touch!

[@UncleLayne]

Imagine a world where David Cage knows how to write. Like, in general

[@finleymorris04]

“Lely was a decent guy” uhhh didn’t he commit rape as well as several other war crimes?

[@shleep3928]

Yea that threw me off lmao. Im guessing he didn’t ask about lely much to klaasje or ask the scab leader about lely’s tattoo

[@Brunosky_Inc]

To clarify, Urick replied in another comment that what he meant there was how he was decent *to her,* and he hadn't noticed how it could've been misinterpreted in the context of all his war crimes.

[@sergey4bid662]

It's actually funny how Klassje and her web of lies and half-truths seems more natural than Madison, who was designed to be so. Also I absolutely love how, when you try to arrest Klaasje and she starts to say some bullshit again, your Half light perk just screams "FUCKING MIND GAMES! ENOUGH!" Pro tip from disco elysium - dont trust your brain when you talk to a woman you like, trust your guts)

[@beyondviolet]

Volition could be seen as “your gut instinct” in this case

[@SupahTheSnowy]

Honestly, one of the most important things to take from this video is to simply give your characters a personality, regardless of their gender.

[@listrahtes]

Exactly!! And imo also that escapism and living out fantasies is also ok. It leads to less complex characters but can also be captivating because people do what they truly care about. Good characters just work no matter male female. I

[@teriosshadow17]

Anyone else feel that it should've been Lauren that goes actively helping Ethan to save his son instead of Madison? Lauren is shocked and sad over the loss of her son and it would pay off later that she manages to make up for her failure to save her son to saving son of the other. But, of course, that didn't happen because Mr. Cage was thinking with his pecker when he wrote Madison.

[@kotyatin]

10:40 Detroit: Become Human does have a shower scene though! Don't you remember Hank?

[@beenice1555]

Lmao yeah fan service for sure

[@ihvojd]

Why do I get the feeling that David Cage is the person who would say that a boob feels like a bag of sand?

[@majorghoul9017]

Congrats on gutting nearly every single David cage game so far, I'm proud of ya :)

[@jackdavenport5011]

It’s so satisfying given what a POS David cage is

[@bigboopus5059]

Your content is so goddamn quality. To see how you've evolved from the OneyPlays animated I subbed for is always so refreshing.

[@AliceHellfire9187]

I quite literally just started playing Disco Elysium and now i see this in my feed. Amazing how the world works.

[@yepyeah7494]

same lol i was like "was this made for me..?"

[@dead_fox]

The comic-styled art that you put in this video is incredible.

[@johnwotek3816]

The fact that David Cage remain in the industry is still baffling me. The dude is a hack that couldn't write his way out of a wet paper bag. I remember back when Detroit Become Human came out... everyone was buzzing around, calling it the next hot shit... when it was basically just David Cage watching half of Blade Runner, telling himself "damn, thoses skinjobs are sexy" before mixing it with a poor attempt at an MLK alegory.

[@LittleWeevil]

I heard somewhere that Madison was originally meant to be a war journalist, but seeing as the game is blatantly unfinished, that aspect of her character was lost. It doesn’t make her shrugging off traumatic events seamless or anything, but it does recontextualise it a bit, and it sort of explains why she has nightmares of masked men breaking into her giant loft, which never gets elaborated on in the final game.

[@thex5899]

A fanfic writer will do better than David Cage

[@kariissmol9172]

Correcting elliotts name for this video is simply perfect ♡

[@b.w.2194]

My first playthrough of Disco Elysium was with high Volition, and I absolutely loved the "these guys are compromised" scene. Made me go from liking the writing of the game to loving it.

[@misterzygarde6431]

Sad to hear what's going on at ZA/UM. At least the lead developer is doing something about it though.

[@coreo2408]

Wait what's going on at ZA/UM.

[@misterzygarde6431]

@@coreo2408 They forced the Disco Elysium devs out and hired someone to maximize Live service revenue. The lead dev is suing at the very least

[@abadidea5984]

Comparing Heavy Rain to Disco Elysium feels almost _too_ stacked of a comparison, so I'm gonna aim even lower. You know what other game has sexualized female characters that are still written better than Madison Paige? *Senran Kagura* . That's right, the big tiddy ninja girl game where you literally beat the clothes off each other has better written characters than anything in David Cage's entire body of work. I'm not joking; these girls go through surprisingly deep contemplation about their place in the world, the true meaning of their conflicts, and especially deep dives into their own insecurities and flaws. And yeah, Senran Kagura has a tendency to go through some WILD tonal shifts; in one scene you'll get stock ecchi anime hijinks, in the next you'll get a fight where you'll fight-strip each other down to your underwear (or less!), and then in the _next_ you'll get the full breakdown of a character's psyche! These girls end up being far more complex and deep than their archetypal anime designs would suggest, and it makes each character equally endearing and likeable. Even Hibari, a character I _greatly_ dislike, has such an interesting take on her personal conflict that I can't deny how good her character arc is! It just goes to show that even characters that one might dismiss as two-dimensional or sexual pandering _can_ have depth and personality as long as the creator actually cares. Madison isn't a character, she's a plot device, and attempting to put her at the center of a story only highlights how vapid and empty she is. edit: "too _stacked_ of a comparison", proceeds to bring up Senran Kagura. I slay myself sometimes.

[@FemboyJoe]

Cheers bro.

[@NihilistCoomerLord]

Damnit, now I’m considering checking out the ninja tiddy game.

[@incognito200]

Disco Elysium is one of my top favourite games of all time. The story and characters are delightful and excellent.

[@kangsate3459]

And ofc dont forget our boy kim

[@ahmbraaa]

i am beyond gratfeul someone is finally talking bout this. while his games theselves aren't the worst, looking at what's going on behind the screen is just as important. i found out about all this through my own research sometime last year, but i havent come across anybody else who did know about this or acknowledged it. so thank you, for bringing all this light and using ur reach :))

[@Morrinn3]

2:57 >And it turns out, he was a decent guy... Uh, not really. I mean, he was nice to her, but... Speak to his comrade about the escapades they got up to and you get a pretty dark picture of the dude.

[@HellishSpoon]

little off topic but i love how you draw harry he looks so goofy and fun

[@ethantaylor9613]

I think Uricksaladbar is being a bit too forgiving of Ms. Disco dancer’s crimes, I believe he may be… Compromised.

[@foxglove1999]

Lely was not a “pretty decent guy” lmfao bruh he was a war criminal

[@moonchild8105]

I'm based in Europe and have listened many times to Mr Cage speaking live as the company I used to work for had a good friendship with him. The man is DESPERATE in trying to make video games artistically comparable to movies and is outspokenly against the term "videogame" in itself. There's also this weird obsession with putting sex and romance in games, just to improve the credibility of the medium. I think also that he has serious trouble with nuances (and I laugh so hard when people call Detroit an antiracist game). I think that applying movie tropes to games is already a silly move, but doing this without any grasp of the movie form (or at least recognizing that the 90s are over) makes everything simply laughable. I think that at the end of the day the whole idea of games being somewhat close to movies has done more harm than good to the industry as a whole, and Cage is the best example of this.

[@limalepakko6074]

I wouldn't say Lely was a decent guy, it's also left up to interpretation if he initially raped Klaasje or not. He's strongly implied to have done that kind of stuff before

[@nowheremap]

nitpick: the hanged man did seem to respect klaasje, which is what's relevant to your argument, but i wouldn't call him a "decent guy".

[@FirionLeFleur]

Bruh, you have NO IDEA how excited I am to know that you're making a Disco Elysium game IMMEDIATELY AFTER I just finished it. I absolutely love that you're recreating the artwork. This is the same thing that happened when I finished Omori, of course my opinion deviates on that though.

[@Cube-xm6vt]

Saying that the hanged man was a decent person is quite the stretch though. Even Klaasje says that he was only nice to her, and that he was a terrible person.

[@Romanticoutlaw]

god knows that with the messed up media I create and consume I have no room to talk, but with the way cage _consistently_ frames women... Idk, I'm just a little sketched out about how he might _actually_ just view women

[@fantoniumnitrous]

Dude, learn to separate fiction from reality. Heavy Rain's characters, including the women, aren't real people.

[@jtofgc]

The Hanged Man was *not* a decent guy. He just treated Klaasje decently. He was still a mass-murdering drug addict and Klaasje, whose industrial espionage career involved protecting monopolies by infiltrating smaller competitors to help drive them out of business, was amoral enough to relate to him.

[@danidkg4071]

The hanged man in disco elysium wasn't a decent guy tho. he didn't rape klaasje, and i'm not sure if he ever sexually assaulted anyone, but he murdered people and was a very violent and misogynistic person. he wasn't a rapist, but he wasn't a good person either.

[@topfrogger492]

It does NOT turn out Lely was a decent guy. He was a child killer. Klaasje just loved him anyway.

[@erinnlucas2920]

the hanged man was NOT a "decent guy"

[@potatoboy6094]

Context is important, if you’re making a serious and dramatic story with serious and dramatic characters yet have women about as interesting, complex and believable as a stick figure with tits and lipstick, it’s gonna stand out. then again, it’s David cage, he writes women about as well as he writes everything else.

[@PineappleLiar]

As this is a video featuring Klaasje and I have nowhere else to share this, I’d like to throw out that there’s a decent chance that *even after* realizing you were compromised Harry didn’t get *everything* out of her. (Spoilers if anyone cares) So there’s a very minor but potentially damning continuity error in the game between what Klaasje claims and the last we hear of her in game. After you’ve done your can-opening maneuver on her she’ll reveal that she’s stuck in Revachol, after an industrial espionage job she came into Martinaise, hid her passports in a buoy out on the other side of town, and wintered in the town she’s staying in. She’s gone off the grid, so even if she did grab those passports and tickets of hers (she can’t, by the by) she’d get grabbed as soon as she attempts to flee the country. And yet… we know she is able to disappear, somehow. We get Shivers of her boarding an aerostatic out of Revachol. So how does she do it? Simple; her presence in Martinaise wasn’t just her hiding away, she was on the job, doing what she does best: ruining a business. The Claires are notoriously corrupt union leaders, and it’s pretty clear that the mess of the Tribunal was their intended goal to push for complete control of the shipping company. They refuse to negotiate with Wild Pines almost entirely, and their demands are about as incendiary as can be anticipated. Of course Wild Pines played their part by bringing in a bunch of trigger happy mercenaries to the harbor in order to intimidate the locals, but it seems that the two militarized sides of the conflict could have held steady for a pretty long time. Until you factor in Klaasje. She parties with both leaders of these two conflicting factions, kicking up the tension between them. And yes, the inciting incident was ultimately a fluke, but what happens in the case where the shot isn’t taken? Probably something similar to the cover story, one of the Hardie Boy’s snaps, kills Korty, and the rest of the boys help cover it up. The end result is the same; one of the two sides lets off the first shot, and the bloodbath becomes inevitable. The press is a nightmare, and Wild Pines cuts ties with the harbor entirely, leaving it fresh pickings for the Claires, QED. Other clues: Klaasje leaves immediately before the Tribunal hits, if you didn’t arrest her. Not only that, she leaves you a parting gift of one final clue as well (something that couldn’t just be thrown together last minute). It’s almost as if she knew exactly when shit would be going down, and left right on time to avoid the worst of it, like she just needed to stay long enough to ensure her job was done. Not to mention, she *shows up* in town almost immediately after the union strike begins, not helping the case that her being in Martinaise is tied to the strike. And speaking of that clue, it is quite interesting that she was able to piece together that the island was the source of the shot, isn’t it? I can put on my suspension if disbelief suspenders and say ‘sure, she probably remembered the incident pretty vividly, and would over the next few weeks piece together where it came from’, but tying Klaasje to the Claire’s would help her coming to that conclusion make A Lot more sense. The only people who know about the sniper out on the island are a pair of near incoherent 4 year olds, and the Claires (huh, both twins, interesting). Furthermore, if Klaasje was let in on some of the twin’s spicier dealings, she may be aware of a particular hit they put out on a Union leader years ago, and who exactly took the shot, as well. I think there’s something there, but I’ll admit it’s my most circumstantial clue. My source for this thesis paper is that time I played this game 3 and a half times in a row at the start of the year.

[@spencerfair7505]

Wow, I never considered that! Ruby also knows about the tribunal beforehand from the mercenaries’ radio- it’s possible Klaasje picked up how to do that from her. Viquemare and Minot leave right before the tribunal as well, but an EDC line says that’s just negligence/coincidence.

[@gaymiens]

disco elysium is so based for making the character everyone wants to romance not klaasje (or even lilienne) but kim kitsuragi

[@night1952]

Love the comic panels, kinda makes me wish the whole game was a visual novel in that style instead of having to manually walk everywhere.

[@MadameGumbo]

Nice take. As a french gamer, I appreciate you quote "Médiapart" I didn't know they investigate Quantic Dreams and these allegations don't surprise me. Thanks for your work!

[@safe-keeper1042]

Preach. Especially the part where SA is used for shock (or even worse, erotic) factor, only to never be brought up again, with even the survivors just shrugging it off and move on. Who needs suspension of disbelief anyway. Oh, and now I need a version of Disco Elysium where the graphics are drawn comic book-style like in your video. Someone needs to make a mod.

[@nickzakrath7080]

Damn. Quantum Dream just pulled an Activision Blizzard.

[@cookies23z]

the volition skillcheck (which I passed rather luckily) made me do another full run with it as the main stat, thats how good ONE optional bit of thought did to me

[@johannabelle]

It's absolutely nuts that David Cage's misogyny didn't stand out to reviewers or become more of a conversation topic at the time Heavy Rain came out. Every single one of Madison's scenes in that game involves her either being Ethan's bedside nurse or being sexually menaced and threatened with rape, usually by someone who has no relevance to the plot. Like, it's just back-to-back-to-back. Fucking nuts.

[@Mr.X2019]

So? Also a bit of an exaggeration, a bit.

[@virtualcynical8515]

@@Mr.X2019 So... It's Poorly Written and Tasteless? You watched the Video, Right?

[@georgemeyers7172]

I don't think they realized that was misogyny until The Allegations came in. As He put it... It's tasteless or pointless at best [aka no Allegations] and Creepy at worst.

[@Mr.X2019]

@@virtualcynical8515 Madison is one of the better written characters in Heavy Rain, not to mention Ethan also gets in his underwear, gets naked, takes showers, etc. So the complaints he has about Madison and making it about his writing for women make no sense to me. You've played the game, right?

[@JoeticJustice]

Given the context that most of his games were in development during the 90s and 2000s, especially back when game journalism and review was under a less respected viewpoint, I don’t see it surprising more than I see it as a testament to how far we’ve come since Omikron and Indigo. Also iirc there were accounts discussing Cage’s inappropriate behavior when interacting with Elliot Page during Beyond Two Souls, even back when the game first released he received backlash. But like I said earlier, game journalism wasn’t necessarily a big set piece back then.

[@jkaptustudios]

Great video, also wanted to say thanks for naming/gendering Elliot Page correctly when talking about him before he came out! Looking forward to that Disco Elysium vid coming soon

[@Boiling_milk]

i just finished my first play through today without knowing you made this video, and i had my guy with the logic glasses, same hat, with rcm suit and horrible tie that you used for this character at 3:28

[@user-xsn5ozskwg]

God, I love your insight. And the art and video composition you do to supplement it always adds so much.

[@Ziel23987]

What you said about Madison lacking charisma is just the tip of bad writing iceberg. I can't recall a single Cage protagonist who has a strong character voice. I don't know Detroit well enough, but in all of his other games none of the POV characters have any interesting thoughts. It's always the bland "how do I solve this problem/I'm scared/I'm sad" - the things that should be left as dialogue stubs to be replaced. It never felt like any of his characters had a strong voice, a personality that influenced his viewpoint, thoughts and actions. Theyy felt defined by their singular trait or purpose at best, and completely subservient to whatever plot demanded at worst. Ethan claims he wants to save his son and be a good father, but he hardly does a good job taking care of his children. Not once does he consider subverting the killer's instructions, guessing the adress early with partial information or just giving all the clues he got to the police. At best he looks incompetent and dim-witted. Madison is... compassionate, I guess? She helps Ethan out when he's injured, that's something. And she's probably rather brave going after dangerous suspects? I don't know, there just isn't much to talk about. And Norman is just doing his job? Scott could possibly raise some interest, but none of that happens in his own POV. Indigo propecy, same shit. Beyond, the chronology is so mangled that even if Jodie had anything interesting to say, we wouldn't get where it's coming from. No wonder the romances suck. What can you do with two human like effigies that would get worse Turing test results than a fucking Roomba?

[@stormburn1]

I was going to comment about Lely not actually being a decent guy, but it seems plenty of others got to it before me. So, instead the focus in this comment is to congratulate you for having an audience willing to correct you and not just nod along. So, congrats! Hopefully mistakes like this can be caught in the Patreon early release in the future. I get how fuzzy memories can be and have absolutely done things like learn a character wasn't actually a rapist and then overcorrect by dumping them into the "pretty decent" category, with new information not hitting hard enough to pull them out of that mental cupboard. Maybe not what happened in your case; I'm just rambling at this point.

[@crumblyguy1834]

I’m going mental, I thought the video was called, “waiting for women feet allegations”

[@samuelolivier3792]

omg i love the comic type visuals you did for disco elysium.

[@Tarodenaro]

Klaasje feels very realistic in the worst way possible; she's a runaway corpo spy and mingle with war criminals, get involved in tons of bad situation like every 'bad girls' would ever do and it feels even way worse when i knew someone IRL who behave exactly like this and involved with local mob & politician but fortunately not murder case. . Volition's voice feels surreal and told me to stay away from her lmao; no simp. As for Urick, he would fit right in DE with the "Sunday Friend's".

[@lniko333]

Was coincidentally playing disco elysium when this video came out but I’ve completed it now so I’ve come back to watch :)

[@Dolshadow]

Damn the editing goes really hard.

[@tref5551]

This video convinced me to put Disco Elysium on the Steam Wishlist

[@invictus987]

A video about David Cage being a terrible writer? I'm here for it every time. Thank you.

[@ladyzoe5734]

You absolutely nailed it! Thank you!🙏🏼

[@arcturus1231]

Love the Disco portraits of Madison and David Cage

[@gendygoblin8391]

Love the art style of your videos. This one feels like a cool variant and the animations of the transitions are pretty new!

[@josehenrique1851]

just a normal day of destroying David Cage

[@plaidchuck]

Cage is an M Night Shamylan fan. That’s all you need to know