HIGH MANGANESE: Should VEGANS be worried?

[@DrDesHarrington]

How much manganese are you taking in every day? REFERENCES: Institute of Medicine. Dietary Reference Intakes for Vitamin A, Vitamin K, Arsenic, Boron, Chromium, Copper, Iodine, Iron, Manganese, Molybdenum, Nickel, Silicon, Vanadium, and Zinc. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press (US); 2001. EFSA NDA Panel (EFSA Panel on Dietetic Products, Nutrition and Allergies). Scientific Opinion on Dietary Reference Values for manganese. EFSA Journal. 2013;11(11):3419. Ljung K, Vahter M. Time to re-evaluate the guideline value for manganese in drinking water? Environ Health Perspect. 2007;115(11):1533-8. Cronometer.com

[@mikeskylark1594]

800% RDA

[@DrDesHarrington]

@@mikeskylark1594 That's a little high man, I'd try and get a handle on that if I was you!

[@mikeskylark1594]

@@DrDesHarrington Absolutely! I already cut out processed tofu & frozen spinach, so it has to be lower...

[@DrDesHarrington]

@@mikeskylark1594 Good, keep an eye on it!

[@mikeskylark1594]

@@DrDesHarrington These are silent pathogenetors (not killers tho), aren't they?

[@unleashingfromwithin6865]

Wow! The content you deliver on your channel is truly unique! I mean it's not the basic stuff you can find everywhere else and your presentation style is authentic! I have a lot of respect for what you are doing here and I can definitely learn a lot from you! Greetings from Germany!

[@greenpowertemple]

I was actually wandering about that! interesting issue it's true I realized after just eating one big oatmeal that almost the whole manganese intake was covered lol... keep us updated if you hear about new study about this :)

[@DrDesHarrington]

Yep, oats will rack up the manganese pretty quickly! A certain inertia sets in when some number is derived somehow and there is much less motivation to study the nutrient further and derive upper limits more scientifically, like we have seen in this case unfortunately...so I don't think we'll be seeing and new research any time soon!

[@lyt5777]

This is exactly what I was searching for. Thank you very much

[@treykings07]

It's insanely easy to go over the manganese rdi on a plant based diet. I'm curious why they don't have any pertinent and or updated science regarding how much the UL should be.

[@DrDesHarrington]

It really is, yes I would certainly love to see this nutrient looked at again!

[@DinarAndFriends]

Another fascinating video! Humans have a homeostatic mechanism to regulate manganese, but this seems to break down at intakes >2.5mg/day. There is plenty of evidence that we can absorb much more than this from water and air and that we can accumulate it over long periods of time. There is also evidence that this is neurotoxic, causing symptoms similar to PD. However, as you say, there's no evidence that this is possible based on just food intake. We are herbivores, so one would expect homeostasis to work well within the physiological range. My guess is that vegans don't absorb anything close to 10 mg/day, whatever their diet. Without knowing how much manganese is actually absorbed from food (probably 1-5%) the figures which Chronometer uses are random guesses. As well has having similar symptoms to manganism, the incidence of PD is itself linked to manganese toxicity, and they probably have overlapping mechanisms. If vegans were really ingesting 4x the upper limit of manganese there would be higher rates of PD amoungst vegans, but actually the rates are lower. Vegan women who menstruate heavily may have a higher manganese intake because less iron is competing with manganese for transport. But it's hard to disentangle the effect of the high manganese with the similar effect of the low iron. In any case, there's no evidence for overt manganese toxicity caused by diet, even in these people.

[@DrDesHarrington]

I am always very careful to base these videos off peer-reviewed literature and keep opinion out of them, and if I am offering an opinion I will clearly say so first. In this case, it is my opinion that it is likely that our physiology is well able to adapt to a large range of intakes of manganese in organic forms, the forms we evolved consuming. However, it is when our physiology is challenged with inorganic forms produced by industry - salts and so on - that homeostasis breaks down. I think this is why we see toxicity with contaminated water and dust, but not food. Of course, this is just speculation, and all we have to go on for sure is the best science we have, which does not tease this question out at all - hence my recommendation to stick to the UL!

[@DinarAndFriends]

@@DrDesHarrington It's not 'just speculation': you are absolutely correct. It's clear from the balance experiments that our homeostatic mechanism breaks down at about 2.5 mg/day, so the values given by Cronometer cannot possibly reflect how much is actually absorbed, given that there is no evidence at all of long-term toxicity. Even babies fed soy with 100x more Mn than breast milk don't show any signs of toxicity.

[@DrDesHarrington]

@@DinarAndFriends Yep, I'd say we're pretty safe with this one!

[@withthelightsout8518]

I'm a vegan myself, but no, we are not herbivores, but omnivores.

[@MayTheSchwartzBeWithYou]

Great video. In my experience, manganese is one of those elements that you seldom hear/read or think about unless you're specifically looking at a nutrition label. I watched this video because I noticed that total manganese from combined servings of pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds, hemp seeds, and nutritional yeast exceeded 100% of daily recommended intake by a decent margin, so I was wondering how concerned I should be. Fortunately, it looks like you really have to go out of your way to exceed 11mg/day.

[@DrDesHarrington]

Many thanks, glad you got some use out of it! Yes, for sure the research was sparse compared with some other nutrients I've looked at.

[@YesPlease1]

Açai is CRAZY high in manganese. I just typed into Cronometer the 9 oz. of açai in the bowl I usually eat from the restaurant I like. (I asked them how much açai is in the bowl and they said 8-10 oz). And the 9 oz. has 17 mg. of manganese...155% of the daily upper allowable limit (!)

[@Steetotal]

Thank you for these amazingly informative videos! I checked Cronometer. My manganese intake is regularly around 8 mg/day. Seems great, but I was surprised to find out that the sources providing the highest amount of it in my diet were flaxseed and, especially, *rye crackers* , which I doubt people consume in large quantities.

[@DrDesHarrington]

Glad you have found some value in them! :D Ah yes, now you see the beauty of Cronometer - it makes it so easy to detect little things like this and tweak our diets to maybe prevent something becoming a bigger problem. An amazing tool!

[@coltboy1987]

I find it interesting that nobody talks what type of Manganese is toxic .

[@DrDesHarrington]

This is a good point that I touch on in the video, it is possible that food-borne manganese has different effects to that found in water from industrial spin-off, etc.

[@c6g12c6]

Nice one Dr dez, unreal advice!

[@DrDesHarrington]

Thanks, man! :D

[@crossedbones5512]

I'm on 764%....but I can't just cut out frozen spinach, tofu, lentils, chickpeas and oats I need all of them to hit other macronutrient targets! I really don't know what to do...

[@Buuge124]

nutritionfacts.org/video/how-much-hibiscus-tea-is-too-much/ Conversely Dr. Gregor concludes dietary non supplemented manganese consumption is self regulated by our bodies and isn’t an issue. I don’t know what to think but my conclusion is going to be somewhere in the middle and I’ve decided to cut my daily oat porridge down by having quinoa porridge every other day which has half the manganese content of oats.

[@sea3936]

Same , but as he said enough Mg Ca would regulate that , if I cared about magnesium only I’ll be deficient in so many nutrients

[@DrDesHarrington]

Yes, unfortunately this just hasn't been studied enough to bring better resolution to the intake range. I alluded in the video to the ability we have to regulate absorption if getting it from proper food, but the science the guidelines are based on hasn't caught up with this yet and so they continue to recommend a very narrow range. But certainly, I wouldn't go crazy eliminating those healthy foods over concerns about manganese! But I would try and get it a bit lower than 764% if you can.

[@anthonynork9718]

I have 11-12 mg/day, I already read up a little bit and your video helps a lot as well. It appears like I shouldn't worry too much but maybe I could improve my diet a little bit, which is in general high in minerals (around 200-400 % for most minerals most of the days). Maybe I need to cut out a little bit of the seeds and nuts which I consume for good fats.

[@DrDesHarrington]

Hi, glad this video helped in your research! It's hard to justify cutting down on such a healthy food group because of your manganese number 🤔

[@anthonynork9718]

@@DrDesHarrington Yeah, it' not only manganese but also the other minerals. I find it hard as well to weigh it properly to justify certain adjustments. 😣 Thanks for your answer!

[@myselfayush]

Hello, shouldn't we look up cultures that have historically consumed a high amount of Manganese for eg the Indian subcontinent and middle east? Any cuisine that has chickpeas as part of their staple diet? a mere 50 grams of raw chickpeas/Bengal grams have 11 mg of Manganese. Thanks!

[@geertaerts977]

Right, so many things in America are based off non-optimal diets!

[@DrDesHarrington]

Would be worth looking at, for sure!

[@TRTandHormoneOptimization]

Very interesting, man!

[@DrDesHarrington]

Thanks so much, glad you got something out of it! :D

[@Nof1LongevityQuest]

Mine was 787% today on a 2000 calories plant diet. Two tablespoons of wheat germ was already 159%, but it also give so many other good nutrients that I hate to cut back.

[@DrDesHarrington]

Yes, it's very easy for it to climb right up there isn't it!

[@gallectee6032]

We need better data before I'd start recommending people to limit their intake of lentils, beans and oats and etc, I'm not convinced by supplement trials (on animals). Or you'll have to assume antioxidants increase your disease risk, which are of higher standard as they have many human trials.

[@DrDesHarrington]

Yes I agree, I would always use caution when interpreting studies on single nutrients in isolation, animal studies or not. However, we do know that we need to restrict manganese, but just don't really have a clue what the number should be. I wouldn't restrict intake of these healthy foods for this reason, in no small part because even if including plenty of these foods it would still be quite hard to hit 11 mg manganese! As long as you're not regularly exceeding it, you should be okay.

[@gallectee6032]

@@DrDesHarrington Would you consider adding oxidative stress to your list?

[@DrDesHarrington]

@@gallectee6032 Which list, nutrients of concern? Antioxidants are one nutrient group we have in abundance on a WFPB diet!

[@gallectee6032]

@@DrDesHarrington Maybe a small series, or just covering what we know about oxidative stress. Such as many studies showing intense physical activity increases some oxidative stress markers, why it's not only a detrimental process, the supplement trials, what it is, why it matters and so on.

[@DrDesHarrington]

@@gallectee6032 Actually that very question is something I've been wondering about myself, particularly in relation to physical activity in a fasted state. I will be looking into it!

[@Philosophicalyspeaking]

Amazing info! And what is the norm of the manganese in the blood serum? I found two controversal facts in different articles: from 0.6 to 4.3 μg/L (Saric, 1986) and 0.4-0.85 μg/L in atsdr...

[@DrDesHarrington]

Glad you found it useful! :D This would not be a routine clinical test by any means and for better or worse is pretty much only of relevance to research, so if you are lucky enough to have access to it I would go with whatever reference range is provided with the specific assay - any test should always come with it's own reference range since it can vary depending on the specific test used.

[@Pingvinicecream]

Yeah so I'm here after Chronometer told me my daily intake is 1200 % lmao. Maybe I need to downgrade from whole wheat pasta to an alternative with only 60 % whole wheat. Although this should resolve itself in time anyway since I'm planning to eat more variety once I get some time to plan the foods out. Now I'm just eating oats, pasta and brown rice every day so there's that.

[@DrDesHarrington]

Ah so here you have a perfect example of why it's so important to vary things up (and use Cronometer!) - it allows us to not only ensure there is no nutrient we are not getting enough of, but also to help guard against too much of anything! But yes, I would certainly do my best to not sustain a daily intake of 1200% for too long!

[@joyfulgal777]

I'm here for the same reason. I average 400-800% of the RDI based on Cronometer. Aren't most whole grains loaded with Manganese? So if you need to eat a lot on a plant-based diet, what can you do?

[@Radjehuty]

The main reason I hit the upper limit is because I consume an ounce of wheat germ with my oats. The only reason I include it is because it's such an efficient source of vitamin E and zinc something I find very difficult to get on a plant based diet. But the manganese freaked me out and I can't find any information out there about whether or not I'm doing this wrong

[@DrDesHarrington]

​@@joyfulgal777 Remember, the manganese from food doesn't seem to be as detrimental. Unfortunately public health are just not that concerned with manganese, thus the lack of interest in studying it further with a view to potentially widening this safe window with more data. Likewise, it is never tested for in clinical practice, again because it's not really a concern. But this lack of interest could also be seen as a good thing - manganism is obviously not of huge public health concern given it's rarity, so that must tell you something as well! Me personally, I'm not too worried about the documented upper limit, I have a feeling it's a lot higher than the official quoted cut-offs (if getting from healthy whole foods).

[@DrDesHarrington]

​@@Radjehuty Hi, if you're getting the majority of it from one food source like that I would be slightly more concerned than if it was spread out over multiple food sources. How much manganese are we talking about?

[@Joshua-gu5nj]

For a couple of weeks I've been eating a bowl of rice every evening. I started having hand tremors, insomnia, headaches, fatigue, GI issues, and bacterial infections. That's interesting what you said about the iron. If I have beef with the rice instead of chicken, my symptoms aren't as bad. Gonna cut out the rice for a few days, and when I do eat it again, I'll half about half a cup. That's around 40% of the RDI, and I was consuming about 200% of the RDI before. And I love that Irish metal!

[@lachlanB323]

Maybe see a doctor. But if you're eating whole plant foods then iron deficiency shouldn't be a problem unless you have other health issues. So see a doctor

[@DrDesHarrington]

Ah, thank you very much! Well I'm honoured by the amount of lives I've touched even with a small channel, but the nutrition world is just so negative and toxic I had to get away from it for a while and focus on music. The threat of doxing on a few occasions didn't help, either!

[@BabyTua]

19.5mg 847% :(((( mostly because of oats and dürüm wraps

[@SergioTwitter]

me too :(

[@DrDesHarrington]

I'd try and get it down a little bit, but given all the things I discuss in this video that level is probably not that bad. Remember, oats and dürüm are super-healthy foods, I wouldn't be overly-zealous in reducing them in your diet!

[@tysonelite9561]

Is it dangerous to get maganese from supplements? My glucosamine chondroitin supplement has 1.5 mg in it

[@DrDesHarrington]

Yes, manganese is sometimes included in these supplements, but I would avoid it if possible and get a glucosamine/chondroitin supplement without manganese. We can obtain plenty of the latter from a healthy WFPB diet!

[@fitybux4664]

??? How did you know I am using cronometer? Stop hacking my brain, lol.

[@DrDesHarrington]

👀

[@geertaerts977]

From Dr. Gregor's book how not to age, of all the vitamins and compounds studied, the longest life in humans is achieved with the highest levels of #1 spermidine, #2 manganese, # 3 folate.

[@DrDesHarrington]

Yes, not surprising given that all three are loose surrogate markers of whole plant food intake! 💪

[@amnation4450]

How much manganese is enough to prevent defiency

[@Lb-ri5wr]

I usually get around 1000% of the mangenese recomendation, 500% of the iron rec. and 300% of the folate rec. I eat 4250cal/d

[@lachlanB323]

Bruh. Make sure you aren't adding 2 of the same food when putting it in to chronometer lmao. Unless you take steroids and have been a bodybuilder for 10 years then 4000 calories is way to much.

[@Lb-ri5wr]

@@lachlanB323 I'm 6'3" bro, I lose weight on 4000cal, I'm currently on 4500ish, gaining about a quarter to half a pound per week. Its shit

[@JasTheGoose88]

what plant foods are really low in manganese?

[@DrDesHarrington]

Unfortunately it's the more refined plant products that tend to be lower in manganese! Peppers are potentially one notable exception. I would certainly rather have too much manganese though than not enough!

[@CindyMBell]

Black skin avocados are .2 mg in cronometer for around 227 calories.

[@DrDesHarrington]

@@CindyMBell So they are, many thanks for the input!

[@amnation4450]

Is 1.0 mg of manganese enough to prevent defiency

[@DrDesHarrington]

That might be a little on the low side. But with plant-based diets, the concern is definitely not getting too little, but rather getting too much!

[@ahmdahmd-lq9fi]

20 mg and mostly from oats :/

[@treykings07]

I was at 16.8, mainly from beans and hemp protein powder. Have you experienced any symptoms? And how long were you consuming manganese at that level?

[@DrDesHarrington]

20 and 16.8 aren't super high, I wouldn't worry about it too much! Certainly not worth cutting down on one of the healthiest foods there is in oats!

[@Dan-je2nh]

you can't deduce that there's a maximum safe level to ingest from findings about the harmful effects of inhaling it

[@DrDesHarrington]

Certainly not, and this just goes to show how little science we have to go on when the discussion has to start with inhalation! In this case, it was moreso used as a preamble to showing that the element is toxic at _some_ level, more than to determine what that level of oral intake would be. Perhaps you could not say that if the toxic effects were all local, i.e. in the lungs, but given that manganism is a systemic condition, notably also affecting the neurological system, we must conclude that it is entering the blood - which of course, it also will when ingested.

[@amnation4450]

So does manganese from food toxic ?

[@DrDesHarrington]

No, we need a certain amount of manganese in our diet!

[@ThePoshPrince]

I'm at 13mg without even forcing to eat that mangenese shit is causing my headaches

[@DrDesHarrington]

13 mg isn't too bad, I've seen a lot worse!

[@SURYASCOLDBOX4]

50mg is something i am consuming and noticed it lately

[@treykings07]

Have you noticed any symptoms?

[@SURYASCOLDBOX4]

@@treykings07 Nope

[@treykings07]

@@SURYASCOLDBOX4 interesting. I wonder what your blood levels are 🤔

[@SURYASCOLDBOX4]

@@treykings07 Sorry but am not aware of it

[@DrDesHarrington]

Are you still consistently taking in 50 mg per day? I would try not to sustain that intake over long periods of time if you can help it at all, just to be on the safe side.

[@GeneralArmorus]

Manganese: The Vegan Killer over 10mg for me. Stupid chickpeas and brown rice. Chicks also raise folates over the limit.

[@DrDesHarrington]

Ah if you're not far over 10 mg I wouldn't worry about it too much! I certainly wouldn't be too quick to go cutting out healthy stuff like chickpeas and brown rice!

[@GeneralArmorus]

@@DrDesHarrington i don't. too many worries without that. I've read that it's probably going to be fine or not too big of a deal.

[@jga8347]

I have to quit green tea for that :'(

[@DrDesHarrington]

Just think of all the other good stuff you're getting with your green tea though - remember, food is a package deal! Also green tea is a food source of manganese and thus less likely to pose toxicity problems as I discussed in the video!

[@paulahowell2724]

I'm sorry but you are speed talking and I just cannot follow all of what you are saying. But thanks for the info

[@DrDesHarrington]

Hi Paula, always trying to get the balance right between not talking too fast and not being boring! I always upload subtitles if that's any help! :D