How Dangerous Is China's New PL-17 Super Long Range Anti-AWACS Missile? (WarGames 190) | DCS

[@grimreapers]

Air Launched SM-6 vs J-15: kzbin.info/www/bejne/hWqrZItpl6qEiLM Air Launched SM-6 vs AWACS: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rHKyop-drbF_ac0 Air Launched SM-6 vs Moscow: kzbin.info/www/bejne/rWeYmpqdhbl6jck PL-17 vs AWACS: kzbin.info/www/bejne/maWWXoqam5lngrs

[@Uselessnoobcow]

Cheers Cap! Great that you guys are so fast to investigate this stuff, can’t be easy - we all appreciate it :)

[@92HazelMocha]

"Fast" the PL17 was spotted on J16's a year ago.

[@Jeffrey.1978]

@@92HazelMocha - You should really stop being condescending to other people in the comments section, acting like you know everything and everyone else's comments are incorrect. Just because you read a lot of OSR articles and participate in discussion forums doesn't mean you know everything - stop being an arm chair warrior.

[@92HazelMocha]

​@@Jeffrey.1978I never said I "knew everything", I'm just pointing out things that others have pointed out repeatedly. For instance there's like a year's worth of comments asking for the PL17 which were largely ignored until a litteral armchair warrior put in a blog.

[@Jeffrey.1978]

@@92HazelMocha - Well regardless of the situation, it just comes off that way sometimes when you might give a rebuttal to someone's comments. An off the wall example regarding supposed Chinese A2/AD capabilities vs U.S. Naval capabilities. I know for a fact, from being in the Navy for 25 years, a lot of what you say regarding U.S. Navy offensive/defensive capabilities is incorrect, but I am not going to argue with you. It is not worth accidentally disclosing sensitive information while attempting to provide you with a justification for my response. It is just that when you make comments to people it comes off as what they said is not correct and your answer is the only plausible/provable result. Either way, happy gaming.

[@92HazelMocha]

@@Jeffrey.1978 I mean if I'm incorrect on a subject, I welcome the correction, provided of course it is something that can be disclosed. I generally work off of my own military expertise (which is not naval) and publicly available information. I try to be as accurate and specific as possible in order to properly disseminate information and I expect that of others. I do realize that expectation is not always fair to others.

[@KOS762]

This game has really come a long way.... glad I found this channel, to see what's up and coming in the game, and with the world's weapons. This is a simulator of a perfect world, where the sun always shines, and there is never traffic on the roads. it's so beautiful, it almost made one of my eyes water.

[@hughmungus2760]

hypothetically a PL17 could also be mounted externally to a WZ8 drone which can fly at 150,000ft. If fired from that height and already going mach 4+, the missile could achieve a combined speed of over mach 8 and probably loft 500nm or more.

[@dexlab7539]

Holy f**k, never thought of that - that is a super killer combo!

[@cityhunterhf]

@@dexlab7539 I believe that the PL-17 can also be integrated into stealth bombers like the H-20. Then, in conjunction with satellite tracking, employing a data link coordinated attack mode using A-shooting B-guidance(reconnaissance drones), so as to launch sudden attacks from greater distances and more difficult-to-detect positions.

[@TeneBoot]

Question: If you havent already, can you try to see if an Arleigh burke class destroyer or any Modern destroyer can survive the amount of kamikaze attacks the USS Laffey (DD-724) suffered?

[@Rob_F8F]

Do you mean fight off the same amount of Kamikazes or be hit by the same amount of Kamikazes? I think the Arleigh Burke woild so better in both instances. Between its SAMs, radar guided 5" gun, and CIWS, it should certainly fight off more than the Laffey did. I think the Arleigh Burke would also do a better job of surviving the Kamikaze hits. Both ships are unarmored but the Burke is much larger.

[@TeneBoot]

@Rob_F8F either but probably fight off the same amount

[@MarkoDash]

@@Rob_F8F people tend to forget that most modern destroyers are in the same tonnage range as WW2 era cruisers

[@Rob_F8F]

@@MarkoDash Yes, Laffey displaced 2,200 tons. Arleigh Burke (Flight 1) displaces 8,400 tons. So, 4x larger.

[@andrewsmall6834]

Cap's voice is so soothing, I often doze off watching the videos and have to go back and re watch them.

[@dexlab7539]

How can you fall asleep with these exciting missions my friend LOL

[@freddiejohames8332]

i think that both sides are modifying naval SAMs for this role. the pl17 looks a lot like the hhq-9 if it is smaller, the americans could be trying something with the sm-6.(edit the pl-17 lookes like a modded pl-15)

[@92HazelMocha]

It is basically just a scaled up PL15.

[@lincoler1547]

⁠@@92HazelMochaNo，it‘s not. PL-21 is the bigger PL-15 rather than PL-17.

[@benrichey2593]

Similar to what the Iranians did with the Hawk missile for their F-14

[@92HazelMocha]

@@lincoler1547 The PL-21 is the ducted rocket missile, its roughly the same size so it'll fit inside the J20.

[@urielmanzone1772]

​@@benrichey2593 nope that has been done due to a lack of western aa missiles

[@harrisonpeck130]

Would be very interesting to see this run with the perigrine missiles instead of JTAMs. The extra range of the 260 doesn’t seem to matter much when the detection range is only 35mi.

[@robertwennberg7260]

The IRIS-T allegedly can intercept AA-missiles, maybe the ASRAAM and latest blocks of AIM-9X. If true then I guess we will see them on tankers and AWACSes

[@grimreapers]

Almost certainly yes BUT I imagine it's really hard being in the right place at right time etc.

[@forzaelite1248]

​@@grimreapersiirc NASAMs uses them too; as long as the aircraft (or in the case of Aegis, anything) can paint a target with radar, EO/IR, or just give it a track position to pitbull its seeker on it should be kinda like airborne SAM defense. Maybe Peregrine trucks for point defense...?

[@Groucho14E]

Speaking of cold aspect missile shots, here's something you guys might enjoy testing: before the final merge in Top Gun: Maverick, Mav says "We can't outrun their missiles." Could they, though? How fast would an F-14A need to go so that a Su-57 couldn't reverse and shoot it down? Or to put it the other way 'round, can a Su-57 reverse quickly enough, without losing too much time or energy, to shoot down an F-14 that blows through a merge?

[@dan.vitale]

It would be good to counter this with the latest E2 Hawkeye revisions and the introduction of the Wedgetail, which has significant capability increase over the Sentry.

[@olivergrundy5205]

Do you mean in terms of range?

[@forzaelite1248]

​@@olivergrundy5205Range is one thing but track fidelity and target size is the main seller. Gonna be real difficult for these missiles to pose a threat when AWACS or aircraft can target them with combined RF/IR/DL

[@kenhelmers2603]

Great new addition for sneak attacks and tactical maneuvers :)

[@deathdrone6988]

America is by its own generals's admission is a few years behind China in missile technology as shown by how the PL-15 is almost a decade old while the AIM-260 is yet to be introduced, and the same story apply for Chinese vs American hypersonics too. Much like how China has to catch up with US subs, 5th gen jets, munitions and logistics, the US has to catch up with Chinese A2A Missiles, destroyers (type055), and hypersonics.

[@grimreapers]

I am part of NATO and I do worry that this is true.

[@InvictusMatrix]

They say that they're "behind" to make Congress panic and throw more money at them and the MIC.

[@dexlab7539]

Very true - unfortunately there is too much hubris (based on old wars) in the western militaries

[@johnsilver9338]

AIM-260 JATM already began its live fire tests with F-22 since last year. It just hasnt reached the rest of the fleet yet. Also PL-17 even PL-15 are large and heavy missiles. Only useful for large heavy less nimble aircraft like AWACS and tankers. While JATM retains the small AMRAAM form factor to preserve its kinematics and aerodynamics. Plus JATM uses a tri-mode seeker compared to a single active RF seeker of PL-15, so it has better terminal guidance.

[@ggen6580]

The most core technology of Chinese hypersonics is solving the BLACK BARRIER, the warhead doesn't need to decelerate to locate the target, head on is the highest speed. This is space technology, does NASA continue to invest money in manned spaceflight? This technology was developed for Chinese spaceflight and then procured by the military.

[@totalNERD-eo7wx]

Hey Cap, I hear about mounting tensions between Venezuela and Brazil over Venezuela claiming large quantities of Guyana's territory. I wonder if you could do a scenario where Brazil intervenes on Guyana's behalf. In terms of air fleets, Brazil has: 46 AMX International (probably a non factor anyway, but would be nice to see represented) 42 F-5 EM/FM (Significantly modernized F-5s, can carry laser guided bombs, cruise missile, has 6 hardpoints for Python-4 and -5 missiles, and even has a new radar integrated with I-Derby ER missiles) 5 Gripen E (many more awaiting delivery) 36 Gepard and a collection of MANPADS Also worth noting are are Brazil's R-99 AWACS equipped with AESA radars, and their F-5Ms have a reliable datalink capacity. By contrast, Venezuela would have: 6 F-5 A 20 F-16 A/B Blk 15 (note that these F-16s only have AiM-9Ls) 22 Su-30 MK2 12 TELAR for Buk-M2E 12 TEL for S-125 24 TEL for S-300V ~300 Zu-23-2 I heard that a naval assault would be most feasible for a Venezuelan attack on Guyana, if you want to include that in your roleplay.

[@dexlab7539]

Yes, great idea - be fun to see that one done by Cap

[@aitorbleda8267]

Well, those AMX with A-Dart have 22Km range and are all aspect, yes, they only have 2 and then cannon cannon, but they can at the very least defend themselves, and they are better than AIM9L, more.. everything. Don't fully discound the Tucanos and Super Tucanos as ground attack, particularly in the jungle where it would be impossible to deploy vehicle AAA. And they can carry sidewinders and Piranha missiles, range is about 12Km with piranhas and pythons, but they are something.. and they have 30 of them. I would certainly vote for Brazil winning this one... depending on how many missiles and what missiles those Su30 have.

[@totalNERD-eo7wx]

@@aitorbleda8267 Well, I guess that could be done in DCS as we have a mod for it. Its just that those Tucanos are going to have a very bothersome time dealing with R-77-1s.

[@sweatybotfn9982]

The Americans never do normal patrol in the East China Sea 😂😂😂

[@hughmungus2760]

although unproven it should be possible for J20s to carry PL17s externally, which will compromise its stealth But would still allow it to be low observable enough to get within 250nm of an AWACs and fire their payload. If the PL17s were guided in via passive homing, the AWACs won't even see it coming until its basically on top of it.

[@jmtpolitico80]

Cool Mission again. Nice to see New Weapons and how they work.

[@appa609]

The J20 has way more fuel than the F-35. 26000 lb internal. It's the reason they don't have an internal gun and have only 4 AAMs

[@dexlab7539]

Good point

[@littleboy3459]

The j-20 bay can actually fit six missiles. Four pl-15 and two pl-12. The bay is too small for the pl-17n but im sure they can be attached to the several hardpoints on the j-20. There is another feature that the pl-17 has that makes it different from other air to air missiles, but i dont think the video discussed it

[@OkPp-fh2lk]

J-20 has 6 missiles, 4 BVR PL-15 and 2 WVR PL-10

[@thereverse_ttv5886]

That is a good point although the J-20 isn’t really Fuel Efficient compared to the F-35 or especially to the F-22, but they had to compensate.. and it worked.

[@team3am149]

⁠​⁠​⁠@@thereverse_ttv5886No, the J-20 was just intelligently designed to actually accommodate the long range nature of air battles, air strikes, and bomber escorting, unlike the F-35 and F-22.

[@magicer911]

WZ8+PL17,The right way to fight

[@charlietheunicorn5383]

GR, perhaps a modified version of this scenario with "loyal wingman" seems appreciate. Good show.

[@mikeedwards350]

The Meteor technology could be built on to create a "destroyer" missile. While they're at it, a Meteor based HARM would be awesome. It could engage modern SAMs well outside of their 4th gen detection range.

[@hughmungus2760]

I doubt they'd be any harder to shoot down than existing anti-radiation missiles.

[@grimreapers]

I'm amazed there arn't more Meteor-type weapons. I imagine there is a good reason for that. Either they don't work well OR are too $$.

[@-qsprey7881]

Because it cannot adapt to high-throw ballistics, it has air intake requirements and cannot adapt to altitudes of 25,000 meters and above, where the air is thin, and rocket engines are at sweet zone there, with low resistance and no need for oxygen. The working height of a conventional ramjet does not exceed 10,000 meters, and due to the special requirements of the air inlet, the ramjet cannot perform large overload maneuvers when working, otherwise it will stall due to poor air intake. If it hits ground or naval targets, it will not be a big problem, but for air highly maneuver targets will have some problems..@@grimreapers

[@dexlab7539]

@@grimreapersyup, too expensive more likely the major issue. Plus, EU military budgets are being exhausted supporting Ukraine

[@darthkarl99]

@@grimreapers Cost through and through. The UK is a fairly big defence spender and we don;t have a lot of them. Same thing with Brimstone. That thing in fire and forget mode launched en mass is downright terrifying. A squadron of Typhoons fully loaded could have shut down Russia's invasion of Ukraine on day one with it, and remained virtually untouchable whilst doing it. But it's also a tech where only just seeing make it into other missiles, (the Martlet missile AKA the LWMM is the only other missile with a similar capability in service with anyone). Another factor though isn't just the raw upfront cost, but the long term strategic costs. Missiles making heavy use of internal swarm based search and track or meteor style ramrocket propulsion threaten various core assumptions about how aspects of war are waged, introduce them too widely and generate too much of a threat and potentiol opponents will feel obliged to either match you to retain parity or come up with a direct countermeasure, therefore requiring you to push the boat out further with a new wrinkle. Cue armsrace. Which is even more expensive than just the weapons your fielding. Classifications also another factor. Restricting it heavily to Meteor makes it harder for someone to figure out all the specific little details you want to keep hidden. The more systems it's on the easier it is for somthing to leak.

[@riparianlife97701]

I rode in a Chinese car today. It seemed pretty nice. The model was Beijing. Don't remember the maker.

[@dexlab7539]

BYD most likely? Nice cars

[@riparianlife97701]

@@dexlab7539 Very Kia-ish.

[@russellcummings7664]

I don't see how a missile without thrust will continue to climb to 100,000 feet. I do understand how zoom climb works, but these missiles probably didn't have enough total energy after motor burnout to continue climbing that high.

[@92HazelMocha]

It has a dual motor system, irl total burn time is likely much higher than what is shown here, but DCS mods have finite limits on how things are modeled.

[@grimreapers]

Our rocket motors don't quite work like the real ones, it's the nearest we can get.

[@dexlab7539]

Loved the new PL-17….thanks Cap and CH

[@ryabow]

26:37 that IS the guy that did the air show takeoff. # 109.

[@grimreapers]

Still doing air show while firing missiles? Didn't end well for him.

[@jayp.8360]

Not sure if you'd know the answer to this, but why don't these anti-AWACS missiles use anti-radiation sensors instead of active radar? Wouldn't the RWR tip off the AWACS to an incoming threat and lead to a much faster response?

[@The136th]

It prob has both, PL-17 is big enough for that.

[@johnsilver9338]

AIM-260 JATM has that. Tri-mode seeker including passive RF.

[@sweatybotfn9982]

20:15 go look at videos, it can almost do those crazy maneuvers irl, plus the new WS-15 engines, crazy planes. We know nothing about the J-20 and just flat out assumed they are sh*t so we can’t base anything on those. Still a respectable video though 👏

[@Stinger522]

Definitely a threat worth taking into consideration. It probably has HOJ capibility too. Maybe it's time to accept that the age of big lumbering AWACS and ISR planes is over. The Chinese will probably make a new special missile for the J-20 if they see the need.

[@Tenright77]

Thx Cap, Seems like it would take more than one tanker to support that many assets...

[@grimreapers]

Fair comment.

[@No1harris_98]

Cap never fails to make my ass and spread my day.

[@grimreapers]

This is important. I think?

[@No1harris_98]

@@grimreapers it is don’t worry about it 👍

[@MTBScotland]

Wondered how long it would take you to get a vid out after this article. IRIST had been shown to hit an AAM

[@EagleFighterJet]

Great new addition for sneak attacks and tactical maneuvers

[@ohiobrian8993]

We did make a missile like it, as you pointed out, the Phoenix. Long range, good against tankers, AWACs, and transports, but terrible against fighters. They are limited in application, so we dont make them anymore.

[@wolfgangjr74]

Every time I see those J-20s I think of Flappy Bird with those canards. They would have looked better without them with a long neck then wings.

[@eddiepearl536]

I understand the entertainment value and limits of dcs however let’s remember intelligence gathering includes satelite surveillance which I am sure all its capabilities are not stated. However I do know they can detect and track missile launches as they said such as they detected and tracked when Russia shot down commercial liner over Ukraine years ago

[@cuoresportivo155]

Thry don't need to fit in the bays of stealth fighters. Or rather, the stealth fighters can get close enough to fire shorter range missiles.

[@TheStormpilgrim]

Now THAT'S a telephone pole!

[@MRTY323]

Maybe two seater J20s can direct the targeting of PL17 carried by its drone or companion J15s?

[@rs8382]

I ld like to see a video on the UK's concept of the mixed fighter force from the latest 70s, early 80s.

[@henrygibson9613]

Could you do a multi video tactical UKCSG and maybe some USA support (a LHA and a burke?) vs a Chinese carrier group with the 206/7 range tech, so Spear 3, Type 26, etc?

[@zobenny8290]

中国的飞行员对 J20的飞行性能评价极高 ，原话是飞机可以做到随心所欲的飞行姿态，反应速度灵敏。

[@keichng5350]

Question if u can do 100k++ altitude on the pl17 why can’t he do it on yj21

[@grimreapers]

That's a good question. I don't know the answer.

[@lukindmitri1339]

The PL-17 in CMO is overpowered IMO, all you need is a squadron of fighters with this bad boi, engage at cruise speed, go BOL in the direction of threats, no need of cranking or drag at all, it will automatically sweep everything in its flight path within 200nm, including things you can't see yet.

[@zahnatom]

the actual use of this missile should be rather limited as it lofts so damn high that any kind of unpredicted "maneuvering" by the target will render it useless.

[@kermittoad]

That's why it's terrible against fighters and somewhat ok against tankers and awacs, atleast awacs have some insane ew systems to defend themselves instead of maneuverability.

[@hughmungus2760]

@@kermittoad the missile is large enough to have multiple sensors where electronic warfare will be basically useless against it. You'd need hard kill APS like a laser or something to stand a chance.

[@kermittoad]

@@hughmungus2760 that's now how it works, no matter how good your active radar seeker is, before pitbull it's still guided by data link via AWACS which is susceptible to electronic warfare, larger missile≠more electronics in any sense either, PL-17 or an R37M is the size that it is to house more fuel hence range.

[@grimreapers]

This is the achiles(spelling?) heel of pretty much all existing long range missiles, if the target changes course mid-flight then they will miss. The GR PL-17 models this, if the AWACS had changed direction mid-flight, it will most likely lose track.

[@zahnatom]

@@grimreapers yeah exactly. even if its unintentional. say the awacs was circling in some position and they launch a missile but the AWACS moves to a different spot to do its circles because that was planned from the beginning. the missile will still be useless. I doubt that it would even be useful against awacs that fly in horizontal lines instead of circles

[@kskeel1124]

F-35s are not intended to be long range interceptors... It's unlikely they would be out there by themselves like that...

[@grimreapers]

I did think about a squadron of F-15C from Kadena but they would struggle against the J-20's, at least in the sim. Would enrage the viewers.

[@thetigerii9506]

​@@grimreapersenrage the viewers because the us didnt win? Incredible really

[@EWElife0313]

If one has a stealthy 5th Gen aircraft like the F-22 would one need a simple long range missile? Would the tactic be just to sneak up as close as possible and take out the AWACS, refueler, etc. with a basic AMRAAM?

[@jayp.8360]

Pretty much yeah. Only thing that might change that is how far the defensive fighters are from the AWACS. From what I understand the EW suite on the AWACS probably also decreases the lock range of an AMRAAM

[@elnod]

I think you can probably multiply the range claimed by the PLA by a factor of 0.5 - 0.7 and arrive at the actual range of the missile :)

[@HH-xx4zs]

Just like in the United States, where hundreds of kilograms of lunar rocks have not been found to contain water molecules? And China has indeed discovered 2 kilograms.

[@jaxompol224]

Cap would the awacs not have saw the mahoosive telegraph poles before they went active and turned away. Would aldo have alerted the F35's earlier.

[@grimreapers]

It's possible yes? Who knows...

[@-qsprey7881]

It is impossible for this missile to be adapted to the J-20 even in the future. The J-20 weapon bay is 4.8 meters long, and the missile is 5.7 meters long, which cannot be accommodated no matter how it is installed. The new engine of the J-20 has become thinner, but the length With further increase, this would squeeze the length of the bay to the point where it would be possible to shorten the bay rather than grow it.

[@MrWizardjr9]

they can carry it externally. would sacrifice stealth but might be good enough to get within 250 miles. and theres the h20 bomber

[@Mark_317]

The aim - 54 Phoenix is also a super long-range missile and ask the United States how many times they were ever successful in shooting something down, Iran may have had some Success With It but to what end

[@golumrat9479]

Always be very skeptical when it comes to weapons like this, especially when theyre chinese or russian and are unproven. There was also the ks172 in the 1990s and 2000s with a supposed range of 400km, never really worked and didnt enter service. I might even say that missile wont work at all and is just there to scare their opponents.

[@dexlab7539]

Hubris to keep thinking that my friend

[@golumrat9479]

@@dexlab7539 well do you know ig this missile has ever been fired/test fired? If it managed to hit anything other than a stationary target? Tell me, if the chinese and russians are so hooked on these super long range missiles why is/was america not developing any?

[@fluxtheory3136]

@@golumrat9479 Because America is bankrupt.

[@agnesakioyamen2576]

@@golumrat9479No one knows, ask the americans and in that case why believe the AIM-260 can achieve that range? American bias much?

[@MrWizardjr9]

@@golumrat9479 we apparently did have one called the aim 54 phoenix but it stopped being produced since we didnt have a need for it at the time. and i wouldnt be surprised if darpa/the pentagon has more advanced designs in the drawers

[@stevenlarratt3638]

When will they model the firefox?

[@jc441-i3q]

It must be scary to be on board an AWACS plane and seeing a missile heading straight for you on the radar screen...

[@CJWall_rott]

Helloo valued cap we do value you quite highly

[@grimreapers]

This is wonderful news!

[@Pantsir-S1M]

Can you do navy better PL-17 vs AIM-260?

[@grimreapers]

Problem is they do different things. PL-17 = anti-awacs. AIM-260 = anti-fighter(mainly)

[@Pantsir-S1M]

@@grimreapers The PL-17 is just for awards?

[@johnsilver9338]

PL-17 is a big and heavy missile. Only useful for larger heavier less nimble aircraft like AWACS and tankers. Same for PL-15 which is around 40% larger by volume than an AMRAAM. AIM-260 JATM on the other hand retains the same AMRAAM form factor to preserve its kinematics and aerodynamics.

[@mooner187]

Sorry if this has already been explained. But if the PL-17 is being guided by the data link. What is providing that link? Wouldn’t another aircraft need to have a lock on the AWACS?

[@dexlab7539]

In this scenario, the Chinese AWACS was providing guidance

[@dexlab7539]

Chinese pole BIGGER than American pole now?

[@OzIan1983]

是的，中国强得多

[@Zhujac]

Pakistan’s Chinese designed F-17 beat the French Rafael 5-1 in air combat practice.

[@ianb3515]

I have a war game idea: can China's KJ_500 planes locate the F35 before the F35 can locate the incoming J 20s and shoot them down?

[@jonathantoymaker]

Yes....the question they will never ask...who really has the best radar 🤭

[@johnsilver9338]

KJ-500/600 is in the L-band, while E-2D is in the UHF band. Plus J-20 is not as stealthy. E-2 will see J-20 even J-35 first than KJ-500/600 detecting F-35.

[@nflo873]

Cheers Cap! 3 min after post

[@grimreapers]

Nice

[@_7-7-7_]

We love Cap. Without cap, we wouldn’t have GR. Without GR we wouldn’t have entertainment. If anyone is new to the channel. I recommend the ac130 dogfight. Just make sure you have a drink close by if you have a dry throat.

[@appa609]

J20's are good bfm fighters. Look up more recent airshow footage with new engines.

[@dexlab7539]

BFM?

[@johnsilver9338]

It's ok but Su-57 and F-22 can do tighter full turns. While F-35C can replicate the same tight turns due to its bigger wings. Both F-35A and J-20 can also do the same at the cost of higher G's for the pilot.

[@Tomdog83]

An Awcs cannot bounce radar off of these big missles....? Thats odd, I doubt this completely

[@jimmymcgoochie5363]

China: invents super long range anti-AWACS missile America: invents AWACS-mounted anti missile laser? It wouldn’t even need to be that powerful, just enough to disable the guidance systems or trigger the fuse.

[@dexlab7539]

Not in service

[@johnsilver9338]

Its not an anti-radiation missile like HARM per se. They just added infrared homing besides active RF commonly seen on SAMs like their HQ-9B and Aegis SM-2 Block IIIB. While AIM-260 JATM has a tri-mode seeker including passive RF so it can already be considered an air-to-air anti-radiation missile.

[@henrygibson9613]

or a rerun of your 1st wargames, Taiwan invasion, but with all your new tech?

[@Ron-ec3tl]

What happened to the tanker?

[@wolfskid15]

Isn't the point of the J-20 that it can sneak in close and take out these high value targets? Why would the PLA also invest in a long range missile that seems to be used for the same kind of thing

[@brck888]

The technology may not be able to be miniaturized, and it will not fit on the J20 yet. However, it can be equipped on the J16, which is suitable for its attack and bombing characteristics.

[@johnsilver9338]

Because J-20 is not as stealthy as F-35. And USN has a flying UHF band radar with E-2D Hawkeye that can see stealth at very long range. Hence PL-17 for them is a must.

[@harrisonpeck130]

With the F-35 being somewhat of an AWACS itself, I don’t see the impact of this missile being what it’s claimed to be. Impactful for sure but maybe somewhat mitigated.

[@hughmungus2760]

you need an entire airwing of F35s in the air to achieve the same 360 degree coverage as a single AWACS. think of a torch vs a streetlamp.

[@harrisonpeck130]

@@hughmungus2760 which is why I chose the words “somewhat mitigated”. But is it that far fetched to imagine in LSCO all the sensor systems in play such as F-35s, naval vessels, ADA assets where applicable, etc., (both US and Allies) talking to each other and forming at least a large portion of that 360 picture? Also, at least in the GR war games, the CSGs always deploy their entire air wing anyway.

[@harrisonpeck130]

@@hughmungus2760 I’ll be the first to admit that I’m not an expert so if it is in fact that far-fetched to imagine then by all means, correct me. It won’t be the first or last time I’ve been wrong in my opinion.

[@ivorharden]

That's a sexy missile

[@colinweber6444]

Hey Cap. I know this is controversial and super large in scale but could you do some sort of Russia vs Nato exercise? Again, I know its huge so maybe just include a couple aircraft from each country? Estonia through Lithuania and down through Poland and Slovakia, Hungary, Romania, and Moldova?

[@grimreapers]

oof that's a biggy...

[@GhostRyderFPV]

Perhaps less anti-AWACS, and more anti-SIGINT (EP-3 Aries and P8A Poseidon) See: _Hainan Island Incident, 2001_ I was stationed at the Tactical Support Center that dispatched that EP-3 we lost, at Kadena AFB in Okinawa when the S hit the fan, and for the subsequent month our crew was held captive until released, spent a good amount of time sitting on the other side of the Lingshui airbase in Hainan watching those... people... try to reconstruct our destroyed equipment. Eventually we were not given permission to repair the aircraft to fly it home, and left, virtual tails between our legs, even though it was the Chinese pilot (not making this up) Wang Wei's fault for the collision.

[@m1t2a1]

The AWACS detected the missiles on radar, near launch. After all, it's just a big tube of steel. Figured they were fired at max range and headed away. Now out of range, they went back to work while the F35s cleaned up with complete datalink.

[@hughmungus2760]

a missile that size would probably only be visible at 50nm or less from the front on.

[@Red-238]

@@hughmungus2760 a f-35 can detect a falcon 9 launch from 1000nm away, so I believe a AWACS can detect that missile from very far away.

[@hughmungus2760]

@@Red-238 A falcon 9 is several order of magnitude larger than the largest missiles. that doesn't say much

[@Red-238]

@@hughmungus2760 being 1000nm away makes that point moot.

[@hughmungus2760]

@@Red-238 i bet you could see the sun from that distance too. Point is the heat signature from a space launch is so huge that strategic launch early warning satellites can detect them from orbit. it really isn't hard. Meanwhile an AAM which has come off burner and is gliding in will be quite cool. Its also only got about 250mm in diameter so not much radar cross section either.

[@janne8765]

It was already here 2015 sighted

[@FukaiRei27]

Why put HAVCAP F-35's in lined with E-3s? HAVCAPs are supposed to be far ahead of HVTs.

[@jcadlols]

IRL would ageis be able to defend the awacs from long range threats?

[@jcadlols]

Lol just hit the part of the video where you mention SM6s

[@timmo491]

If they're as dangerous as their 'incredible' submarines, we've got very little worry about.

[@kskeel1124]

Even 15-20 years from now they would still run into F-15s out there...

[@BoraHorzaGobuchul]

Can't it be carried on 5th gen externally, they shoot it, jettyson the pylons, become stealthy?

[@grimreapers]

I think so yes.

[@dexlab7539]

Yes, but due to the weight of the PL-17 they likely wouldn’t carry many other missiles to fight afterwards

[@Anarchy_420]

I personally believe The F-35's would have the capability to at least attempt shooting down incoming PL-17's, especially with AIM-260's

[@dexlab7539]

Maybe but intercepting a Mach 4 missile is hard

[@seraphx26]

The F-35 is not intercepting a missile at that speed lmao, it may be able to track and lock it but there is practically no chance it's missile is going to hit the target.

[@maxlin3442]

The 6 metres are too long to fit in the J-20 bays

[@flyjym2276]

I’ve noticed in some of your videos the SU-35 still use PESA radars when it has been confirmed that they’ve been using AESA radar for at least 6-9 months

[@grimreapers]

The way DCS works, it really doesn't make a great deal of difference. Most of the AESA capability we just can't model.

[@McAllisterCo]

“The Su-35 employs the N035 Irbis-E ("Snow Leopard") passive electronically scanned array (PESA) radar”

[@ser43_OLDC]

@@McAllisterCo "they’ve been using AESA radar for at least 6-9 months" He knows that before this they used a PESA radar

[@kermittoad]

​@@ser43_OLDCwhich AESA radar?

[@ser43_OLDC]

@@kermittoad probably the N036 Belka, that is based in the Irbis. So probably they have made a Irbis AESA radar ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯

[@cyronader]

Can AIM 260 track PL17?

[@grimreapers]

hmmm will investigate.

[@lippertwe]

simple and interesting. i have trouble accepting that the awacs can be shot down so easily... but this is out of principle not reality.

[@jacehames9317]

And next from china, they have created soul seeking projectiles 😂😂

[@ioanbota9397]

Realy I like they are so powerful I like it

[@Cadenkellner23]

LREW this is the american pl 17 equivalent en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-Range_Engagement_Weapon

[@aaronstreeval3910]

Hey grim reapers I have a mission scenario I think would be absolutely epic if you could do. because of recent events and I think you should try it. As best you can Here’s the setup to so the Venezuelan Air Force at the base of El Libertador is a hive of activity as it is the home of all of the Venezuelan f16s and half the su30 fleet witch is preparing for any response from Brazil in response to The annexation of western Guyana seems imminent. On the ground are 16 f16s and 12 su30s in Ready for action. As well as handful of assorted transport , utility and or trainers.present at the time of your impending attack. Nicolas madoro seems confident that the United States will not interfere and his high command doesn’t feel their airbase is in danger of retaliation strikes so the aircraft aren’t dispersed. But air defenses have been strengthened and approximately 5 zu23s are around the airbase And there may or may not include a s300vm battery nearby On the other hand Nicholas is wrong the United States Air Force plans to mount a massive attack to destroy the majority of the most advanced Venezuelan combat aircraft. you cap Have to assemble a strike package to annihilate this base and as many aircraft on the ground as humanely possible. All While also contending with an undetermined amount of these fighters as QRA rising to defend the base against the strike package under your command. * Your goal is to as stated previously destroy as many if not all aircraft you find. * Destroy Hangers possibly containing these aircraft * Destroy Ground based Air defense * Destroy Fuel storage * crater the runway. If it were be I would use an assortment of 18+ F15Es and or some B1B bombers to have plenty of bombs 4 ship flight of f16s to do SEAD and double as escorts of or even do some straifing And all covered by a 4 or 8 ship flight of f22s Feel welcome to tweak what aircraft and how many you use to attack. Other than that if you decide to do this have fun and I look forward to the video !

[@grimreapers]

Thanks for this.

[@איציקכהן-כ5ז]

pretty sure amrica is use to thos missles and dont forget awax has air defenc like cheff and sceret systems that probbly not known to us with good reson that missle has 50 50 chance to hit but probbly china will eat tomahawk on there airbases

[@hughmungus2760]

the last time the US tried to use missiles like this, disco was still in fashion. Technology back then couldn't make it work but times change.

[@MarkoDash]

with the amount of power an AWACS can throw out (all sorts of stories of long range poultry cooking), i'd be surprised if they don't have some kind of self defence option that focuses the beam down and burns out an incoming missiles' radar receiver.

[@ObiWanShinobi917]

The new ones do have a laser based self defense system actually

[@the_beef4762]

Does it bug anyone the F35s interior is a SU? Why not just have an F15/F18 or F22's? Makes no sense.

[@Great_Cthulhu]

Depends which aircraft they took to turn into the F35, probably a flanker to start with, and they've just not replaced the cockpit assets because it's not yet relevant.

[@92HazelMocha]

F35 doesn't have a HUD so there's not really a way to get an accurate cockpit for the mod.

[@yujinhikita5611]

i hate that missiles dont have inertial guidance they just peel off after getting notched. not to mention these super modern missiles should have aesa active radars that can discriminate between plane and chaff in a notch. this game gets less and less realistic the more modern the stuff. also in reality 1 or 2 f35 would go to the front and spot all te enemy combatants and guide all the aim-260 for the rest leaving only 2 vulnerable at most. the AWACS being shot down is realistic but if it was a full scale war at this point it wouldn't be, the us would know not to place such valuable assets to where they can be shot at. also not being taken into account is the f35's ability to jam the enemy or vice versa. though all this is very fun to look at.

[@tbe0116]

All the modern stuff in DCS are mods, so yeah they aren’t realistic.

[@TimberHog]

Why wouldn't the US counter that threat by putting stealth coating on AWACS? There's no way the PL-17 could use its range on them anymore.

[@hughmungus2760]

it would be pointless. AWACS aircraft are RF lighthouses that announce to the world where they are the moment they turn their radars on

[@andrean2247]

Datalinks, remember battleship? Satellite tracks every piece of jets and puts them on grids. So satellites itself also a radar. SCS are not that big in the eye of satellites.

[@grimreapers]

Easiest counter is just to stay out of range of current missiles, that's what they've always done. Intel always best weapon.

[@dexlab7539]

Won’t work, the shape of the plane is critical - it’s not just a coating

[@Eddy525_violin]

where pl21

[@grimreapers]

As far as I can tell they are struggling to get PL-21/XX to work effectively.

[@jonathantoymaker]

PL-15 range is longer than the AIM-260 ...No 4th gen fighter can evade it and it has a surprise for stealth jets too..😂

[@rmp5s]

9:22 - Or, the military has all kinds of things that we don't even know about yet.

[@jonathantoymaker]

Yes...They have no clue or chance..

[@rmp5s]

@@jonathantoymaker ...wut?...

[@surters]

Can't the AWAC see the missile?

[@surters]

Answered in video, yes they can see them, and you might be able to shoot them down due to size.

[@grimreapers]

You probably could shoot these in real life.

[@Dimitris_Datseris]

Okay guys, do not worry, by the time that this missile becomes operational, it isn’t going to be a threat, the battlefield is evolving, the need for giant slow aircraft with giant radar cross sections is going to be diminished, actually the United States Navy can operate using super hornets as mobile tankers, the F-35’s ability to share information along with the new radar it will make each aircraft of this type a mobile AWACS , also from what we can see the missile is quite big which means that a single plane can carry a lot of them, they are also probably going to be expensive, meaning that giant swarms of decoys around big aircraft will make the Chinese fire a lot of missiles just to destroy one aircraft, the best part is that these swarms don’t have to contain aircraft so the Chinese will be firing missiles worth millions of dollars at a bunch of decoys. will be firing at a bunch of decoys . Also the super hornet will easily be able to dodge one of these missiles, a bunch of aircraft may be lost, but the Chinese will be wasting a giant amount of missiles on decoys, while the ones that actually lock on to the actual target get dodged.

[@hughmungus2760]

AWACs are still not easily replicable because you need a panoramic long range radar that has long loiter times. F35s and F18s can't stay in the air nearly as long and they would need a whole airwing airborne to do the job of a single AWACs

[@Gliders115]

9:12 The americans have probably had something like that for the past 10 yrs.

[@4191682]

Oh, OK, enjoy yourself in the games, PL-17 is a long range missile, why the heck would they be fired at 18km? and China had much more advanced radars in air, ships, and on land comparing to the US radars. there is no way a F22/F35 will get in range of a J20 within 108kms without been spotted.

[@EclipseSingleton]

The US doesn't rely on long-range fire and forget missiles like the AIM-154 anymore because of chance to miss. Relying on the missile's seeker to do all the work is risky. Tactics are more about multiple sensors on a target, concurrent tracking, stealth, and data link. And while the AIM-120D's wikipedia page states the operational range is 80ish nmi, you just know the classified actual range is farther than that. 😀 Fun little exercise overall.

[@grimreapers]

Could not agree more.