How I DCC an old DC Tri-ang motor 18-11-2017

This video has worked out longer than the 20 minutes I wanted it to be - sorry about that but I have trimmed it as much as I can but I hope that you will still find it of interest.

[@user-kw7yv2gi7d]

A very instructive video Graham. Many thanks.

[@allanhillery-jones9743]

Graham, Great video on the trials and tribulations of converting older locos to DCC. I am in the throws of converting my own stock and this certainly gave me pointers to the issues I will face. Many thanks.

[@Geoffmay33]

Respect Graham, I just admire your patience and dedication, as well as the courage to do it all "live".

[@GrahamFoulston]

Many thanks Geoff and a running session of them running is uploading right now. ;-) ............Graham

[@paulthurston2883]

Your video has helped me convert my old Triang Blue Pullman's. Thanks! And yes, that electrical smell takes me right back to 1966. ! It should come in a spray bottle with new train sets !

[@GBPuploads]

Great to see these older models given a new lease of life and to see your attention to detail. Looking forward see them running on Lakeside.

[@GrahamFoulston]

Thanks Greg and hopefully with a bit of time I can get a running session done sometime today, I agree, it's given me a great kick to see all these old locos running again and hopefully it will be all worthwhile when I see them running on Lakeside. ............Graham

[@sylphil51]

Hands of a surgeon eyes of a hawk - very well done Graham.

[@GrahamFoulston]

Thank you Phillip, not quite what you say but not bad for my age. ;-) .............Graham

[@darrenhillman8396]

Good work Graham. It was sad to see the emus lying abandoned when you took us on your layout room tour, so you are preserving a piece of your own modelling and Triang / Hornby history by keeping it going and that's got to be a good thing. Fiddly though!

[@GrahamFoulston]

Thank you Darren, that was one of the main driving forces behind me fitting these decoders so that evey now and again I can now give them a run rather than just sitting there gathering dust, I can of course always convert them back to original should I so wish. .........Graham

[@peterwrigglesworth7302]

Hi Graham another Great how to video Great to be able to give those older loco's a new lease of life especially when you have so many memories attached to them. You must have the patients of a saint think i would have given up after just a hour lol All the best ... Pete

[@GrahamFoulston]

Thanks Peter but the problem I have is that I don't like to be beaten over something like that and apart from that, I get an amazing amount of satisfaction when something works especially if there is a problem with it like there was on this occasion. The real test will be to see it run on the layout. ;-) ..............Graham

[@jdsgotninelives]

I put this video aside as a 'watch later' and forgot about it. Really, really fascinating!!! I love the painstaking effort you put in to these videos Graham. I would have loved to have seen the cleaning process that you used, as I imagine the procedure could be applied to any number of electrical cleaning scenarios. I really enjoyed this! Cheers Graham :)

[@GrahamFoulston]

Hi John and I'm pleased that you enjoyed it, the cleaning was just really basic stuff using cotton buds, water and detergent, nothing more than that really which is how I clean all my locos. I did clean the armature of the motor with some fine wet and dry to get the old carbon and muck off and a needle to scrape out the crud between the gaps in the armature too. Hope that helps. ............Graham

[@jdsgotninelives]

It does mate, Cheers :-)

[@idrisdixon6998]

Well, Graham, you learn something every day, so they say and in this case what you learnt we all learnt LOL lovely video....Iddy

[@daviemaclean61]

You have the patience of a saint. I think I would have given up and thrown it at the wall!

[@GrahamFoulston]

I must admit Davie that there were times when I thought that too but it is such a simple motor that I knew that there would be a fix somewhere - it was just finding out where!! Anyway, all sorted now thank goodness. ;-) ............Graham

[@waldenhouse]

Love it, love it, love it, and yes, THAT smell is magic - as smell & memory are linked (clinically) I can identify with it EXACTLY. Especially so To Christmas morning in the 60s when Father Christmas had been! Wonderful.

[@GrahamFoulston]

Hornby should bottle that smell - they would make a fortune!! And I agree, Christmas morning in the late 50's - early 60's was brilliant, wondering what Santa had bought me - a new wagon or coach or maybe even a new loco - wonderful. ;-) .............Graham

[@charlie1872]

looks terrific once you cleaned it up

[@ollychap1985]

I bet your really pleased to have your old trains running on DCC . I still have my first locomotive it’s a flying Scotsman from the early 90’s . It’s a bit like the real Scotsman it has had some new parts fitted over the years to keep it going

[@GrahamFoulston]

I am pleased with the way this has all turned out Oliver, I've learnt a lot which has been great too. You will keep that first loco for many years to come I hope - I will never sell mine even if I pack up. .............Graham

[@johncarvil498]

Great video Graham, I've not got the skill to tackle something like that, credit where credits due. Cheers John.

[@GrahamFoulston]

It probably looks much more complicated than it is to be honest, it's basically connecting four wires but typically me I overcomplicated the issue by taking the motor apart to clean it but I enjoyed it so that's the main thing. ...........Graham

[@ScottDowneywoundedbear]

TCS make great decoders, I use them all the time. I had issues with wheels once. I took them off an auto rack car but didn't realize they where isolated ones and it took me an hour to figure it out.

[@GrahamFoulston]

This is the first time I've used these decoders and I like them, I found out this morning that looking at those four wheels then they were all isolated so no wonder I couldn't get a reading from the decoder!! Oh well, another lesson learnt is to check and not assume I guess. ;-) ............Graham

[@SimonLivertonCentral]

Very nice Graham, I love the way you strip things down completely, if I did that I would have soo many parts missing when I come to reassembling everything...Simon

[@GrahamFoulston]

Thanks Simon, I don't seem to have problems with taking things apart and putting them back together again but I do have problems with doing the magical electronic things you do - perhaps we should team up!! lol. .........Graham

[@tomlawton7087]

Graham Foulston Simon Lakeside-Central? Of course, that is meant to be the benefit of a model railway club (where you can just do the bits you’re good at) compared with this sort of club where support (and expertise) helps us all to do all of the layout. I work in a complicated industry, where more time is spent planning than doing, and I’m definitely suffering from overthinking, otherwise paraphrased by Voltaire as “Perfection is the enemy of Good Enough” Regards, Tom

[@SimonLivertonCentral]

Hi Graham, I would love to team up with you, I could learn a lot from you...Simon

[@GrahamFoulston]

And I would learn a lot from you too Simon. You could teach me how to tell jokes for a start!! lol. ;-) ..........Graham

[@GrahamFoulston]

I used to belong to a model railway club but gave it in because I just couldn't bare all the egotistical know it all's and rivet counters. Not my kind of scene at all. ...........Graham

[@petesmith3234]

Another great video very interesting many thanks

[@FredWilbury]

Amazing Graham ....I’ve stripped the odd old motor but not quite like that.....if I ever go dcc I know where to come ....big regards to you sir ! ...fred

[@GrahamFoulston]

Cheers Fred, it looks a lot more complicated than I showed it to be honest, you don't obviously have to strip the motor down like I did but just thought I might as well to get it thoroughly clean, you could have easily had popped a decoder in within about 20 minutes or so - but me being me I like to make my life more complicated than it need be!! lol. Cheers for now mate. ........Graham

[@nigelcarter9503]

A job well done how you carried on with that is beyond me.

[@GrahamFoulston]

Thanks Nigel and I had to finish it really otherwise I would just have a pile of bits left!! lol. ..........Graham

[@TonyBullUK]

Great video - quick question, which way should the magnet be inserted? Does it matter at all?

[@GrahamFoulston]

Hi Tony, to be honest, I don’t know! I don’t think it matters, I can only guess that in the worst case then it would run in the opposite direction than normal which can be rectified on the controller with a simple CV change if it bothers you, hope that helps. Cheers for now mate. …………Graham

[@letzterinstanz]

Well done, Graham - that one caught me out years ago too, converting early Fleischmann locos to DCC. You won't do it again though ! The old story of "The man who never made a mistake made b****r all ! Cheers.........Reinhard

[@GrahamFoulston]

Thank you Reinhard, I've made plenty of mistakes along the path of this wonderful hobby but it's true what you say, I have also learnt a lot too and still I'm still learning everyday which is why I love it so much. ...........Graham

[@christopherbeadling7013]

Hi Graham, this helped me convert a recently bought motor. Can I ask which decoder you used? Was it the TCS T4X? Did it come with the socket already? Thanks in advance.

[@charlie1872]

Hi Graham, like most of us I have a couple of these, some in running condition. My question is how well did they run before you installed the chip? I. other words is it worth i stalking the chip ? regards Charlie

[@charlie1872]

So Graham, should they both be isolated axles? Great job

[@robbiecook8770]

What a great find. Just discovered my sons Triang/Hornby railway since 1975 in the loft. I'm about to start my own layout at 77 but mine will be DCC. I have about 5/7 of these to convert but one may be a Ringfield motor. What great times we had in that loft & as many folk say that old Loco smell. Cleaned a few & a bit of oil has them running again but that old steel track has to go. The only thing Graham you omitted was the type of TCS harness & decoder you used? That's quite important as you say a larger that usual harness is needed & the standard Hornby is not up to it? Would be most grateful if you could help with some more information so I get the correct Decoder & harness. Great site & I'm learning so much already as it looks a mine field if you don't do some homework. Many thanks you give to us mere mortals. Regards, Robin Cook.

[@gerrybvr]

Hi Graham, 2 quick questions. Did the new magnet make a noticeable difference? I'm unclear what the issue was with the wheels. I thought DC and DCC are the same in that you want a connection to each rail? Perhaps you put one axle in backwards initially so opposite wheels went to the chassis?

[@GrahamFoulston]

Hi Gerry, it's difficult to know if the new magnet made any difference or not to be honest as I don't have any comparison to run it against with the old magnet but I guess that for a 55 year old magnet then it must have lost some of it's magnetism over those years. The problem with the wheels was totally down to me a few years back when I swapped them out - for some inexplicable reason I had put four isolated wheels on and so the was no current getting through at all. Hope that helps. .........Graham

[@garydavison5291]

Nice informative video Graham, did't think it was possible to DCC a Triang power bogie. I believe the neodymium magnets are far too powerful for this application, I've tried them on the Transcontinental bogies they seem to draw a lot of power to start and are difficult to get smooth acceleration, OK at slow speeds though. Also noisy at high speeds.I later removed them and re-magnetized my original magnets. Lakeside is a lovely layout, keep up the good work.

[@GrahamFoulston]

Thank you Gary and I'm beginning to think you may be right about the neodymium magnets being too powerful, it's certainly not as smooth as it was so I may whip that one out and put the old one back in just to see if it makes it run any smoother again. Thank you for the kind comment about Lakeside, that's greatly appreciated as always. ............Graham

[@garydavison5291]

If memory serves me I think they pull about 0.8amps when the magnet is OK, speed doesn't seem to matter, any more then it will need re-magnetized. The give away is that smell we all love. Let me know how you get on.

[@GrahamFoulston]

Yes I will do Gary and thanks for the info mate - much appreciated. ...............Graham

[@jetmec]

Hi Graham, Good video, Very informative, If I go DCC I will have to do this to my dock yard shunter, Just one point the wheels that had no insulation would be no good for DC as they would cause a short.

[@GrahamFoulston]

Yes I realise that now Stephen, looking at them in the cold light of this morning then I can see that all four wheels are isolated so nothing was getting through but hopefully a hunt in the boxes in Lakeside will reveal the correct wheels will be found. But at least I now know the problem and can sort the last motor out with relative ease - famous last words!! lol. .............Graham

[@keithpratt9311]

Hi Graham, great video and you have great patience. I followed your video to do my Dock Authority Shunter but had a few problems. I've still got the original wheels and I wanted to put some insulated ones on as my shunter won't run on DCC. Can you tell me where I can get some insulated wheel from please?

[@tomlawton7087]

Watching with interest, Graham. Have you measured the stall current of the motor, or is the value from expert assessment?

[@GrahamFoulston]

No I haven't measured it Tom - I wouldn't have a clue how to, for me it either goes or it doesn't and if it goes then does it run slow and fast - if it does then the jobs good to go - it's that simple for me I'm afraid. ..........Graham

[@tomlawton7087]

Ok the worst current in a motor is when it is stalled, and the decoder should be rated to support that current so that it does not get destroyed if it stalls. Whilst the test has to be done brutally , holding the motor stopped at full 12V DC whilst (quickly) measuring the current, the decoder may reach that condition when trying to start the motor against back-emf control, so it is much more common when in DCC than in DC. Trouble is, meters don’t tend to have that current capability; at least you know the range you expect to see. Regards, Tom

[@davidstrains4910]

Great tutorial graham hopefully I will be able to do it at some point but my layout isn't DCC yet

[@GrahamFoulston]

Thank you David, well if you ever go DCC then you know that you convert some of your original locos should you wish to. ..........Graham

[@westonman57]

Hi Graham,interesting video its so annoying when you think youv'e done everything right and it doesn't work. At least you got there in the end,you would have thought that a least one side of the wheel set would be insulated. All the best Bob

[@GrahamFoulston]

I have checked this morning Bob and I can now see that all four wheels were insulated so that explains why the controller could not see the decoder - hopefully I can find the correct wheels up in the barn when I go and have a look. Glad you found the video interesting though. ............Graham

[@baltinhas2]

hi there, nice video. i´m currently trying my best to restore a motor from a vintage 8F 2-8-0 Hornby LOCO that is now not running after a short circuit. Do you have any help or video to suggest.?thks

[@hawthornvalley]

Very good, Graham. I have a Hornby GWR Pannier tank loco (no 2744) which I want to dcc. I will send you an email with a couple of photos of the loco and the motor. I think the motor is either an X.03 or X.04. I want to try and do it myself and hope I get it right first time. Same as with the air brushing of my carriage kits. I went into that with much trepidation, and surprisingly it worked out OK Your tutorials are very interesting. Well that is enough from me for now ...... Ian

[@GrahamFoulston]

Hi Ian, OK, I will wait and see what the photos are like in the email but I think I know what you mean. These things aren't too complicated to be honest, just a bit of logic and care that's all. You will be fine in converting this - no problem. ..........Graham

[@hawthornvalley]

WOW, that was a quick reply. Duh! of course it is only 12:51pm Sunday afternoon over there, and 11:51pm Sunday night here. Any way the email has been sent and it should be in your inbox now. :-) Regards .... Ian

[@Finnertoncentralmodelrailway]

Another great vid Graham could you show us the difference between the wheels ?

[@GrahamFoulston]

The only difference between the wheels is that one side of the axle is a sold steel wheel mounted directly to the axle and the other wheel has a plastic insert in the middle and it's the plastic which makes it isolated when mounted on the axle - the two are quite different to look at - but obviously not to me at 9:00pm in the evening!! lol. ..............Graham

[@Finnertoncentralmodelrailway]

ok i have some triang locos so will look chears brian.

[@Fredstrains]

I love the old triang stuff much better than the new hornby stuff not as good quality nowadays

[@jacobjohnston1218]

Fred's trains I agree

[@GrahamFoulston]

I like them too Fred, they have a lot of character to them and I'm fast becoming a big fan of them again. ..............Graham

[@Fredstrains]

Graham Foulston I also like some of the older hornby stuff as well

[@FarlandHowe]

I think I know the smell. Older electrical appliances sometimes would have it. Kind of a Bakelite oil impregnated paper that has been heated. Is that it? My 1951 Lionel diesel had it. Nice vid, Rob

[@GrahamFoulston]

Cheers Rob and yes I guess that could be the smell - difficult to describe but I'm pretty sure we all know it when we do smell it !! Thank you mate. ;-) ...........Graham

[@tomlawton7087]

Final minor comment that the wires that are not in use should be isolated. Your twist is a good way to keep them apart, but with a live chassis they also need to be safe from touching that. I agree that putting the 8 pin socket would complicate the final installation, but being able to swap out the decoder to the null (blanking plug) would have allowed the motor run to be diagnosed from the brushes to the wheels, and might reduced the time spent. For a novice like me, effort well spent, but considering the number of decoders you must have fitted, a backward step. Good luck running tomorrow. (If you have a chance, can you explain about the wheels again later? Thanks) Regards, Tom

[@GrahamFoulston]

Oh well Tom, it's a shame you thought it was a backward step but from my standpoint I do now have two fully working DCC old Tri-ang motors. Where the backward step is then I'm unsure but I'm happy with the result so that's the main thing. ...........Graham

[@tomlawton7087]

Graham Foulston Oops, misunderstanding. I’m saying for you to follow the path of fitting a socket is the slower (novice) route, and so that is why it would be the backward step. I plan for my installations to have the socket (where possible) even with an extra 1-pin socket for the function 3. I want to develop a DC-SMART decoder to drive the lights (with stay alive) as well as a Null decoder to debug a fault like this, and a test board for checking decoders and demonstrating these dc decoder functions. And once I’ve got to the level where I can do these with the same confidence you’ve just shown, then I’ll start to decrease the “novice support” techniques. I’m all for bringing older stock into the modern situation; after all, the PWM control with feedback that is common with current decoders was an aspirational controller to get “back in the day”, and so the improved control and light control does bring the older trains (especially MUs) to a good place. (Simon is doing the sorts of mods that a new EMU would benefit from; your era of tungsten lighting would be a bit different.) Keep up the good work! Regards, Tom

[@tomlawton7087]

Just an addition to the final comment; you cannot drive the motor directly with the decoder attached, since driving the output of a block of electronics (ie the decoder) is never a good thing. With this decoder able to be disconnected, the option of running the motor by supplying power direct to the brushes is available, which then separates the problem into three sections; motor (test as above), decoder, and rail-side power supply. If we mortals lack the analysis that Graham has shown, being able to break the system into smaller modules that you can test is very useful. Regards, Tom

[@themidlandcompoundarchive9430]

It's surprising how complicated this is!

[@GrahamFoulston]

It's not that complicated really, it just takes a little time that's all and I probably made it look more complicated than it really is. But I hope that it has helped in some way. ...............Graham

[@themidlandcompoundarchive9430]

Yes It has thanks.

[@TheDiomedef16]

Just seeing all those bits laid out filled me with horror, I would never have been able to put it all back together. As for the electrical problem, absolutely no chance bruv, fitting a new light bulb is the limit of my skills.

[@GrahamFoulston]

It didn't do me much good either bruv, I was thinking what the hell have I done after laying them all out! lol. You and me both as regards electrics - it's a wonder I haven't blown myself up yet!! ...........Graham

[@TATICMOOR]

Typical and frustrating issue which can drive you mad when one has a problem. After all your hours of hard work to get a motor to run and it just sits there having you scratching your head. Then you start to remove wires, resoldering joints etc and the problem can't be found. Patience is a virtue for modellers, especial when you find out it is all down to non insulated wheels being the main issue. As I had a similar issue for someone, so I now like to have my multimeter at hand to check connectivity in the wiring for any bad joints or block signals. Better than desoldering any joints for a dry or broken wires. Then only to find it is all down to the way the wheels sets are shorting out across the tracks and not the insulated type. So best to make sure to test your wheels first for this issue when one has to do jobs like this. It happens to us all sometime and a lesson well learnt after hours of pulling your hair.

[@GrahamFoulston]

Yep, as you say John, a lesson learnt indeed but I guess you have to start somewhere. A multimeter would be a complete waste on me, as you know I haven't a clue about most electrical things - it's all a mystery to me and I have to use logic in the main to sort my electrical problems out. I wouldn't know what to do with those two stick things on a multimeter - I know you are supposed to stick them on different parts to check something but where to stick them and for what purpose is a big black hole to me!! lol. Never mind, I manage to muddle my way through somehow. ;-) ............Graham

[@TATICMOOR]

A simple tester to make Graham or anyone following this comment is to have two wires one red and one black with a 9 volt battery loom and a mini incandescent light bulb holder wired in series. So you red wire extension lead connects to mini light bulb holder positive side (if LED is used instead). Then the negative side of the light bulb holder is wired to the battery loom red. The black battery loom wire is then joined to the black extension wire. The red and black extension wires can be of any length to use as probes with tinned ends or small croc clips as your testing ends. To prove that your tester is working first just touch your to testing ends together and the bulb should light. If not remember to look at your connected incandescent bulb filament is not broken. To use as a simple tester connect the two ends to either side of a fuse and it should light up too, unless it has blown and the light will remain off, also classed as a dead circuit. Now on testing your items for connectivity, make sure all the power is off any items that needs testing. Attach your 9 volt battery (remove when not in use) to your wired loom and use the two bare end wires red and black and touch them to either side of a wired joint, but not on the soldered joint itself, or on PCB copper track at opposite ends. If the bulb lights up there is connectivity flowing from one end to the next and all is good, if not there is a dry joint or break in between your tester extension leads and that circuit is dead. A simple cheap analog or digital multimeter does the same thing and handy to have, but can also test Voltages, Amperages and some other functions too. Use KZbin to research how a multimeter works and no point in buying a all dancing very multiple tester that is expensive that you don't need. I hope this has been useful for the Lakeside readers and happy electrically testing your items.

[@GrahamFoulston]

Thank you for that John, I guess a multimeter would come with instructions anyway - how about this one? : www.amazon.co.uk/ULTRICS%C2%AE-Digital-Multimeter-Voltmeter-Ammeter/dp/B00TM0W8ZY/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1513362814&sr=8-3&keywords=multimeter+tester

[@TATICMOOR]

Yes this would do the job nicely for you Graham, but don't buy one just yet as great minds think alike and Santa is due soon.

[@GrahamFoulston]

Hehe, I think my wife is getting fed up with me giving her little lists of train things to get me for Christmas and you're right, I don't need it right now anyway, I will probably hold off until the January sales. .............Graham

[@malcolmone1]

god you can work fast lol

[@GrahamFoulston]

Hehe - very handy having the fast forward thingy!! lol. ...........Graham

[@richierex]

Nice job but your not a born maintenance man.