How to "debate" Mormons

Our hero talks to an active member of the mormon church and it is totally civil and pleasant. OOPS! Ubermormon talks about the tactics to win any debate. Of course, in this case, "win" means remain cordial and keep your reputation intact.
#debate #exmormon #mormonism #lds #leavingreligion #atheist #theist

[@tansershinasi2932]

Heres a question, why dont mormons who leave the church "leave" the church?

[@ubermormon9611]

For the same reason you left that comment.

[@tansershinasi2932]

@Ubermormon strawman but ok....I think it's obvious me leaving a comment and you create your whole life around a church you don't believe in by making a home studio, and daily videos are totally different. But if you want to pretend it's the same, then I'm happy to affirm that 🙂

[@HoratioIsHere]

@@tansershinasi2932 Hey mate, I left the church 40+ years ago and I don't have a podcast or KZbin channel. I am a 4th generation mormon who served a mission, got temple married and was 27 and in a bishopric when I left. For me, once I stopped believing the church no longer had any relevance in my life at all. Exmo pods are entertaining for me. Seriously there a millions of people like me who just left and leave the church alone.

[@tansershinasi2932]

@HoratioIsHere , hey man! Thanks for the genuine response...I've got many friends that have left and we are still best/close friends, they don't preach against it either. However, I have a lot of friends that do start preaching against it and start post negative content and have a hatred towards not just the organisation but eventually the people...and I agree the videos can be entertaining haha!

[@SploinkyDH.]

​@@tansershinasi2932 how was it a strawman? You seem to display a strawman. He isn't devoting all his time and life to this channel.

[@rogervaldez-vi5hq]

Lets get ready to rumble

[@ubermormon9611]

What is happening?

[@bryancsimmons]

Please keep these kinds of conversations going.....finding objective truth rather than proving a point should be the goal of the discussion.

[@ubermormon9611]

I would like this to be my contribution to the exmormon world.

[@latterdayskeptic]

Ubermormon! Awesome discussion and I loved how you highlighted the infinite regress problem that Mormonism doesn't solve. Hayden tried to say it is a "theory" as if it adds value but its actually just an extra step added to the existing problem. We all are stuck with the infinite regress problem but Mormons are stuck with explaining the infinite regress problem AND God. Also I disagree with Hayden (and Jacob) that conversations about Mormonism are fruitless if you don't deal with the more fundamental questions first. You can grant assumptions and or find logical errors and still have meaningful convos. For example, you can grant theism and still say that JS was a treasure digger. You can grant theism and still say that the Book of Abraham was a fraud. You can also just highlight logical issues like the problem of evil or the contradiction of perfect justice and perfect mercy. Although I love the fundamental conversations, I think smart Mormon apologists use this tactic to discuss the incredibly complex and unsolvable questions about God rather than addressing their easier to prove/disprove claims.

[@reddish22]

Glad you highlighted this. When Mormons go to the “bigger” theism question, it’s often so that they can smuggle in the Mormon stuff while actually defending deism (most often). I’ve seen enough of Hayden and Jacob’s discussions to see that was probably where he was headed.

[@jamescrane6583]

Starting with a belief shouldn't be the first step. The first step to discuss should be how we arrive at our beliefs. Post hoc explanations of why we believe things is only a little interesting. I would imagine that Hayden doesn't believe in God because he is convinced by the fine tuning argument, but rather he believed in God first and justifies it because of the fine tuning argument. He likely believes in God due to evolutionary conditioning, and cultural conditioning. If either of those elements were different he would believe differently.

[@ubermormon9611]

This is true. We ran out of time but he eventually mention that faith was an important part of his methodology. I wanted to get into that but we ran out of time.

[@ubermormon9611]

I agree that once you have reached the core belief. Street epistemology would be a great way to move forward

[@jamescrane6583]

@@ubermormon9611 his methodology is only interesting if he chose his beliefs. I don't believe that he did. I don't believe that he really understands why he believes what he does. Faith is just another post hoc reason to rationalize his beliefs. Do you think humans pick their beliefs? I did everything I could to hold on to mine and they evaporated. There is a story I tell myself about why my beliefs changed, but my beliefs changed before my story was formulated. As much as I would like to be able to believe in God again, I am afraid it would take something like a head injury or other kind of trauma to reprogram my beliefs, some kind of biological change. I am sorry, I realize this appears very condescending and I am not trying to be.

[@tripleraze321]

@@jamescrane6583 it is only condescending to those who have not experienced such deconstruction. Which I assume is many :) I approach discussions and debates so differently from the past. Regardless of topic I feel that the odds of a truly enlightening discussion is incredibly low. It requires both parties to be willing to interrogate their own views. But not just interrogate them, they have to be open to the results. They have to remove all certainty and pride of being right, in so doing the discussion is no longer one of right view vs wrong view, but rather a discussion of learning. It would be two parties successfully applying a bit more ownership to their own views and helping each other improve their understanding of themselves. The odds of such a discussion is so incredibly low based on the fact that no person fully understands any perspective other than their own. It’s not that people are unwilling, it’s that it’s often impossible. We are only in one head.

[@EowynG191]

That was so pleasant to listen to!!! I love when people disagree and are still friends! That is the best! ♡♡♡

[@jc1619]

An intelligent and thoughtful conversation. Not what was expected but very refreshing.

[@tripleraze321]

Absolutely refreshing to see someone truly recognizing that the only perspective any person has on anything…is their own. Even with people who we believe think like us, really don’t, a few intelligent questions would reveal this to any two individuals. This understanding is ESSENTIAL to any conversion regardless of secular, politics, or religion. I have thought deeply of this lately and came up with the term “true learning occurs on the middle ground.” We can not even reach the middle ground unless we doubt and question our own positions as much as we doubt someone else’s. And no individual can join us there unless they can do the same. We should apply the scientific method and the way scientists attack theories to all of our own positions and ideas. Every scientific theory welcomes questions, it welcomes doubt, it welcomes self correction. Because every good scientist knows this is the only way their theory can improve.

[@ubermormon9611]

I had a blast talking with Hayden and I’m excited to do it again. I loved how we landed on the point that we aren’t actually really coming from such different places.

[@christinam.8243]

My dad when we were group would let the Mormon young men that would go door to door let them in and have them in the house and loved to talk to them. He was sick with als and passed away in 2005❤️

[@nute742]

Interesting Debate. So a few thoughts. So many people out there may be divided into 2 "camps" on certain issues or things"black or white" like on creationism (adam & eve) or evolution. However there could be a "middle ground" (Sorta like how they haven't yet unified or still working on general unifying theories', between gravity, small and large particles, quantum mechanics etc). However I find that even in Gods realm he is the most "scientific" of all (and we just sometime "guess" and do our best, as that's all we can do). However I really like that there are "different' levels of being or organization to be aware of (as each Law operates at a certain Level) . The one that is lower (such as physical laws) is subject to the next one that is higher (e.g. - Spiritual laws, etc) Such as physical laws, are subject to "spiritual ones" etc. Even spiritual ones (in the term morals) or "spiritual matter" in the term of our spirits etc. So there may be some "physical evolution" on our planet, which perhaps some things were perhaps made or formed this way, but also we are in a "spiritual" evolution state (evolved from Goods spirit, one could even say "spiritual evolution"!) where some things in nature perhaps took the lower or (natural route) each in its 'own order" of its own kind (all working together of course) and the lower (physical) being subject to the higher (spiritual, etc). One really great scripture talks about the "different" spirits - one of beast, and another of Man. The fact that we have the ability to dream, adapt and grow - faster than from the animals (because our different roles of course) even shows it. If humans were 1 million years old (how come our technology has come 1000x fold in the last 200 years) Maybe moore's law, etc? But seriously it's just something to consider (even if one looks at it in a non religious way) but using logic, etc. The "intelligent" universe and the chance of everything just falling into place. Another "interesting" fact (for all people, even those living in the jungle with no outside communication) are NDES. (Near Death Experience). One Amazon tribesmen died momentarily (got bit by a poisonous caterpillar) and then saw Jesus (a white man - whom he had never before nor a ever had contact with a white person). Or another person who died (and was shown their "Pre-mortal" existence) and what their life would be like (or some even saw their own bodies, or a life review before coming back to their body). So I think those facts (despite religion or beliefs) seems to correlate quite a bit (even from a logical and consistent point of view). So if we are searching for truth (one needs to seek a set of rules in order to be objective and not subjective / bias when looking and verifying truths (if even looking from a non spiritual / religious goggles). So anyway there it is. A few viewpoints on those conditions of earth, science, our nature, and laws governing the natural world (and spiritual) which all of course work together. :)

[@JP-JustSayin]

That line at the end about "athiests use faith too" is kind of a misuse of the word faith (which is easy to do since faith is a mine field of equivocation). What atheists are usually doing when people say stuff like this is excercize an "ability to operate in the presence of uncertainty" ... which is not really any one's definition of "faith." Where it gets mixed up is that some people use faith to generate an illusion of certainty for themselves and then operate from that place of "generated certainty" ... and then say those that do with out that are using faith. It kind of bugs me. 😉

[@Mustardmanor]

A thoughtful and respectful conversation. I honestly think there's more universal and shared beliefs between religious and non-religious people.

[@ubermormon9611]

Absolutely true!

[@mcable217]

I'm surprised that Hayden's best argument for theism, the one he brought out first, was completely based on incorrect scientific facts. He went for positioning of the earth being correct to the millimeter, when actually the earth's distance from the sun fluctuates quite a bit in it's orbit, by about 3 million miles. Most fine tuning advocates use something like the cosmological constant, which at least appears more finely tuned.

[@ubermormon9611]

Good point. My main issue as I said in the clip is that fine tuning switches the roles of cause and effect into an unfalsifiable mess.

[@rogervaldez-vi5hq]

I'm gonna come at you like a spider monkey

[@rogervaldez-vi5hq]

I liked the tanser shinasi comment why ???do x Mormons who left the church ,know how to leave it

[@quacks2much]

Can you say Ensign Peak and $5 million fine? The fine should have been about $20 billion because the Mormon church loves mammon.

[@DaveJohnsonSCG]

Feels like theism was a miss direction. For me I wouldn't start there because it really has no bearing on all the issues of the BOM being a 19th century bible fan fiction book. Believing in any god or not doesn't change that issue.

[@poerava]

Please pull down the higher frequencies of your mic bro. Hearing the saliva move around your mouth can be very repulsive. Love your channel

[@ubermormon9611]

Haha thanks for the tip

[@peregqwe18878]

I had to chuckle around the 14 minute mark. The body dwelling localized lord of their planets in particular understanding is laughable and ludicrous to the vast majority of theists and if we’re honest pagan.

[@ThisSaintsTheory]

I'd be honored to debate you.

[@ubermormon9611]

Email me

[@ThisSaintsTheory]

@@ubermormon9611 I don't have your email

[@ubermormon9611]

@@ThisSaintsTheory sorry, I mention it a few times in this video so I thought you had heard it already. [e-mail]

[@user-ux3vb5zg1p]

Latterday saints don't debate religion because it leads to arguing then you lose the help of the holy spirit

[@ubermormon9611]

Doesn’t it seem like God gave the spirit to Abinidi and Alma whenever they had do verbally contend with someone? Why do you think that would be the case then, but any form of debate now means God takes it away?

[@thuggie1]

i think everyone is guilty of not listening to others they disagree with even i do it at times when i am wound up i find the average person which are the majority have a in common and these ideological hills raise up all the differences we all have. the only person i have met that i tried to talk to that his mindset was alien to me was a national socialist there views where so against my moral compass you would need a cult deprogrammer to work with them.

[@KONYLOVESKIDS]

Listen to everyone and everything trust noone

[@sinisterhug1394]

Start of video Ubermormon: “Boo!” Active Mormon: “ah! A scary Ex-Mormon who uses logic and history that church leaders warned me about!!” 😂

[@alanbrooksby4381]

Mormonism aside, you are absolutely not in the same place as theism concerning infinite regress. Orthodox Christan theism does not have an infinite regress problem at all. You have that problem because you define the law of cause and effect as everything has a cause. Theism does not define it this way. Theism defines the law of cause and effect as every effect has a cause. Theism defines God as infinite and uncreated because he has the property of Aseity, i.e., "the property by which a being exists of and from itself". Therefore, God is not an effect needing a cause. "Created by" is not a property of an uncreated being and since orthodox theists don't believe in created gods the question of, where did God come from is gibberish to us. There are many arguments atheists can bring but this is the worst. In addition, chance is not an ontological entity that exerts causal influence in the affairs of the universe. When you flip a coin there is a 50 50 chance it will land heads or tails but the chance it will land heads or tails "by" chance" is zero. When a plane crashes have you ever heard from the investigators that, "well, everything was working fine, no pilot error or any other circumstance was a contributing factor, it just crashed "by" chance"? The same principle applies to everything else.

[@mikehunntt5338]

only fools argue with mormonrons

[@ubermormon9611]

We didn’t argue. That’s the point.

[@MidwitObservations]

I was hoping Hayden was smarter than the average theist, disappointment 😞

[@downenout8705]

I doesn't matter how "smart" a theist is, they all ultimately fail to get even remotely close to providing sufficient evidence to justify their god beliefs.

[@MidwitObservations]

@@downenout8705 a man in the sky is silly! But so is a complete rejection of the possibility of our nature being something intrinsic to this world. I beleive is a duality of truths, 2 views to have a clear image, God gave us 2 eyes to see depth(100% evolution but the phrase I like). We are both individuals and a whole at the same time, like a cell in the body we are but a part of the greater universe. We are proof that the universe itself is alive, an athiests God is the world and never oneself, that's something awefull indeed, one is love and the other is greed